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Street Evangelist Tony Miano announced he’s leaving Faith Community Church and will be attending Grace Community Church.
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But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blpasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 2 Tim 3:1-5
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Admin note: Ok, I apologize in advance for the length of this article, but I could not find a dividing point without losing the flow and making it disjointed. The goal was to have all of the documentation in one post. So . . . if you only have time for reading the condensed version and important parts, read the BROWN font and the tweets.
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One year ago today, we heard the ruling from Judge Fun regarding the $500,000 defamation lawsuit against me and 4 other members (2 were later dropped). We won! I was away at a Christian summer camp serving as a counselor when we got the news and quickly got away for about an hour to share the news. Continue reading
“So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.” John 13:34
“And may the Lord make your love for one another and for all people grow and overflow.” 1 Thes 3:12
“But we don’t need to write to you about the importance of loving each other, for God himself has taught you to love one another.
Indeed, you already show your love for all the believers throughout Macedonia.
Even so, dear brothers and sisters, we urge you to love them even more.” 1 Thes 4:9-10
Julie A. writes, Me afraid? I don’t think so. I think it shows pretty clearly you were evading my question and it makes me wonder what you were trying to hide by not answering my question 5 times (Twitter, my blog, your blog and other blogs).
Really???? Proof, please. My daughter posted one Google review before she was sued. That Google review was posted late Dec 11 or early Jan ’12. I am not aware of any others before that. You sure are coming across like you have info. Provide it here publicly. He accused me and those with me of going from church to church spreading junk.
I never spread anything in any church. My daughter didn’t go to church. She has no interest in God or church since dealing with Chuck. So, please give me the inside story that even I don’t know about, Fred.
I haven’t evaded any questions of yours and like I wrote on the previous occasion, I never had any insider information…
That is, until as of yesterday evening when I received an email from a church member at Grace Bible with some additional information I did not know before. According to this individual, who is not the pastor or in pastoral leadership to my immediate knowledge, one of the big parts to the back story that you demand proof about is that your daughter was fornicating with a guy.
Now. Before I continue, is that true or is this person lying? Was your unbelieving daughter involved in an illicit sexual relationship with a guy?
Perhaps you have discussed this on your blog and I missed it, but if that is true, that places the events involving your daughter and this church into an entirely different context and changes the dynamics of your complaint against them. We can maybe discuss if how the situation was handled was good. Maybe they were overly harsh when they confronted her and dealt with the aftermath, but that hardly makes the pastor a terrible cult leader.
If an unbelieving daughter of a church member is found out to be fornicating are you seriously suggesting that a pastor is to just “let that go”? Just “let the family take care of it”? And not say anything?
Do you readers know about this situation if it is true? Again, maybe you have written on it, but I haven’t seen anything, so please direct me to a post where you have if that is the case.
7:05 AM, August 01, 2012
“Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.” 1 Cor. 13:7“Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.” 1 Cor. 13:13
“Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church.” Eph 4:15
“Always be humble and gentle.Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love.” Eph 4:2
“Dear brothers and sisters, we can’t help but thank God for you, because your faith is flourishing and your love for one another is growing.” 2 Thes 1:3
“Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.” John 13:34b
“Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins.” 1 Peter 4:8
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16
James 3:1 “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.”
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have been waiting for this response from Mr. Butler for a while. He has now addressed the issue and I would like to open it up for discussion. I was concerned that we wouldn’t hear from Fred again and that the questions might remain unanswered. Thank you, Fred, for responding.
My blood pressure rises each time I read his comment. Mr. Butler is not the first person who has given me this response. And sadly, I notice a trend of similar responses coming from people of Fred’s ilk. I may address that at some point because I believe we clearly have a systemic issue that has gone rampant in our churches – the failure to appropriately deal with false teachers and pastors who abuse their flocks. Did Jude 1:3 – the part where we are to earnestly contend for the faith – get removed from their Bibles? Do pastors get to pick and choose their battles and ignore false teachers? Really? Is that how it works now?
While you read this, I ask you to do one thing. Please imagine this is a situation in which there are abused sheep, a whole church full of abused sheep who are being misled. Ask yourself what will happen with the abused sheep if we follow Fred’s response?
You have stated on more than one occasion that the blog on which we are now interacting should not exist. I’m curious: Under what circumstances would Julie Anne’s blogging be appropriate, in your view?
Appropriate blogging against this current pastor and church specifically? Never. If she felt inclined to leave a comment with google and it got removed, that honestly should have been the end of it. But she persisted. Julie Anne seems to suggest that she was under some obligation to warn everyone about this church, but why? She hadn’t attended there in three years before leaving that google review comment, at least that is how I understand it. All of the sudden she felt she had to leave a negative comment and stir up strife with this pastor and church? I can be a gadfly at times on blogs, but if the blogger or web moderator is deleting my comments, I know when to take a hint.
What would have to transpire in order for you to concede that Julia Anne’s blogging is no longer something she need repent of?
In my opinion, she needs to discontinue this blog and leave Chuck and that church alone. Her and her family live in an entirely different state now, as I understand it. This should no longer concern her. Further, make some sort of faith effort that she will cease and desist from bothering them again. That’s I see it.
Interestingly, this is part of a similar discussion I had with Fred on his blog a while back. I posted the following comment and received no response from Fred.
Julie Anne said…
I did what I felt was right. Yes, it is messy. The whole thing is uncomfortable. What feels right about false teachers? Nothing! However, after beginning the blog, I have been in contact with countless people who discovered the story thanks to the pastor’s foolish lawsuit and subsequent media response. These people have told me story after story of abuse that I was unaware of because they experienced it many years before me and I had never heard of them. They have been living in silence for years, sometimes more than a decade, some families have been torn apart, some no longer go to church or are afraid to go to church – – – all because of this one man. I felt by not doing what I did, I would be sinning:
Criticize and rant all you want about my method, but until you walk in my shoes . . . .
I would also like to remind Fred more words from his pastor, Dr. John MacArthur. In MacArthur’s Truth War book, he mentions, “even some pastors and popular writers in the Christian market might be the enemy disguised as comrades. The apostle Paul warned of that very danger in
2 Cor. 11:13-15.”
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
Once again – if all other appropriate Biblical methods were employed, if the pastor refused to communicate, refused to meet with a local pastor who offered mediation, if he refused to listen to MacArthur’s people, including Phil Johnson, what next, Fred? There were a number of pastors in the local area who knew of this situation and all chose to not get involved.
Are pastors and church leaders the ONLY people whom God uses to point out abuse and false teachings? Luther’s nailing of the ninety-five theses to the Wittenburg church door was one method of calling out wrongs. Do you think if he had the internet available, he would have snubbed modern technology?
Fred, now what? Walk away from abuse? Don’t you have a child, Fred? Would you walk away from your son if you saw him being abused? Would you take the blog down and walk away? Which reminds me of this brilliant post from Craig Vick, who asked you some questions that you perhaps missed earlier. I thought I’d bring the comment here so you’d be sure to see it:
You are clearly very bright, and I think you are interested in real discussion. Consider, then, what I take to be a central problem in all of this. There are churches that do not overtly transgress orthodoxy and yet are very cult like in their behavior. Do you agree that such churches exist? If so, how do we spot them? I would find it more constructive, and a better use of your gifts, if you would wrestle with that question rather than simply tearing apart the tests that someone else has proposed. I don’t think it’s easy to do. Some wolves are very adept at looking like sheep. If we say, for example, that such wolves differ from sheep (or true pastors) in that they are manipultive and controlling it’s easy to respond by saying that’s a bit vague (it is). That doesn’t mean, however, that this test isn’t getting at something very real. So how do we distinguish between cult like control and normal, responsible teaching and care? What would you suggest? You yourself say “There are pastors who are controlling and lord it over the flock they are to shepherd.” How do you distinguish these from those using Scriptural authority appropriately?
My readers have asked some great questions. I hope you will be so kind as to respond.