Book Review Series – Lori Alexander’s “The Power of a Transformed Wife” – Shhhh…Be Very, Very Quiet

The Power of a Transformed Wife, Lori Alexander, Submission


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-by Kathi

This is a book review series of The Power of a Transformed Wife by Lori Alexander. If you are just joining us, you may click on previous chapter reviews to catch up.

Introduction & Chapter 1   Chapter 2   Chapter 3   Chapter 4   Chapter 5   Chapter 6  Chapter 7


Chapter 8 – Part 1 – Win Him Without a Word

Due to the length and so much wrong happening, this chapter will be broken into two parts. Remember how the last chapter ended questioning whether or not wives didn’t have any words because they were too busy having sex? Oh, there’s so much more to winning over your husband.

Lori (ever so humbly) reminds readers again that she helps women who come to her complaining about their husbands. Lori’s “prescription” to winning over a husband is:

You can win him without a word by your grace-filled, godly behavior because a woman’s most potent voice is not the words that she speaks but the life she lives in front of her husband and children. This approach is reminiscent of the saying, ‘Preach the gospel at all times, and, if necessary, use words.’

Here is where I am going to stop and say that Lori’s editor is really horrible in this chapter. There is no citation for this saying. Even if there isn’t one, a note should be made. Later on Lori gives us other people’s thoughts from articles and blogs and never once cites anything. I know it shouldn’t bother me, but Lori was an educated public school teacher, for goodness sake, and must know the concept of citing sources. Although, she never cites anything on her blog, so maybe she never learned this concept in high school or college. Yes, it really bothers me.

Back to the point of preaching the gospel without words….Lori’s point here is that wives force the gospel on their husbands when they win him without words. I really wish Lori would define “gospel” for us. To me, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Is the gospel about not arguing? Is the gospel about submission? Is the gospel about being a stay-at-home mother? Is the gospel about appeasing your husband? If that is Lori’s definition of the gospel, she is preaching (excuse me, teaching, she’s a woman and therefore not allowed to preach) the wrong message.

Is divorce ever an option for Lori? Nope, divorce is out of the question because:

It’s important for you to keep the family together as long as possible because your family is sanctified when you live out a godly life in front of them. When you’re not around, Jesus is not there, but when you’re in the home with your children and your husband, Jesus is there living inside of you. This dynamic changes after a divorce because you’re no longer all under one roof.

Jesus magically disappears if a wife is not living under the same roof as her husband. Poof! I think Lori places too much on a wife here. Does Lori doubt that God can work in a husband’s life through other people?

Lori also states that wives need to endure difficult times in order to be a godly witness to their husbands and that this is a powerful testimony to the world. Let’s think about that for a minute. How do you think non-Christians perceive this teaching for a Christian wife? Do you think really think that they will see Jesus through a teaching that encourages wives to stay with husbands who are cheaters, watch pornography, or are alcoholics? Lori is telling women that they need to stay in a destructive marriage in order to preach the gospel. This is NOT the gospel message!

I’ll finish out part one by letting you in on a Lori secret:

Men are not complicated. What they want and need most from their wives is respect. Often, affairs happen because their wives are not respecting their husbands at home, or worse yet, in public. If God hadn’t built them to need respect, He wouldn’t have commanded that wives respect their husbands.

First of all, where is Lori getting her information about why men have affairs? See, I can’t let it go.

Secondly, Lori needs to be clued in on a little secret…all people want and need respect. People can lose the respect of others by their words and actions. A husband who is sleeping around is going to lose the respect of his wife. If he wants respect, he needs to show her that he honors his marriage commitment.

This entire chapter uses fear and shame tactics to keep women in destructive marriages by giving advice such as: think about the kids, if you put your kids in day care someone else will raise them, you’ll have to go to work to support yourself, God can work miracles, and wives threaten the sanctification of their husbands if they divorce.

In the next section we will look at Lori’s views regarding abuse and other people’s nonsense that she throws in for fun.

photo credit: Brian Tomlinson Quiet via photopin (license)

107 comments on “Book Review Series – Lori Alexander’s “The Power of a Transformed Wife” – Shhhh…Be Very, Very Quiet

  1. I took a seminary class years ago on dealing with common problems in church counseling. One of the scenarios for our small group was about a husband having an affair because he claimed that his wife wasn’t as pretty as she used to be and wasn’t meeting his needs.

    We were two men and two women in the group. One of the men began to defend the man’s choice, since he would obviously stray if his needs weren’t being met. I said that wasn’t an excuse if we really claimed that marriage vows were to be taken as seriously as the Christian church says they should be, and that the responsibility for both partners was to respect each other.

    I am single, always have been, and I am not seeing that my status will change at this point. But, all the good marriages I have observed have two people working together to love and fulfill each other. As this happens, and as they do the same for their children, this type of family usually has a strong, positive effect on bot their church and community.

    Liked by 4 people

  2. Diets and plastic surgery notwithstanding, women become less pretty as they age. So do men. Should a wife commit adultery with the gardener because her husband is now fat and bald?

    Furthermore, you CAN’T make your spouse be faithful–woman or man. They cheat because they choose to do so.

    I thought it was horrible how Kate Gosslin publicly mocked and humiliated her husband (and children) on John and Kate Plus 8. It was also horrible how John committed adultery and left her for another woman. Bad choices on both sides!

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Due to the length and so much wrong happening

    Hee!! I continue to love your writing on this 🙂

    She’s on about the divorce thing in a new post where she basically calls out women for mentioning that their husband affair was their reason for divorce. This incidentally feels like a sideways slam at that proverbs 31 lady. She goes on about usually when this happens it’s all the wife’s fault. Typical.

    She says men aren’t complicated. Wrong. Men are people. All people are complicated.

    It is so foolish to think that if you just do everything right no man will stray. Not true, even if it were possible to do everything right, which it isn’t.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Lori A. wrote,

    You can win him without a word by your grace-filled, godly behavior

    This reminds me of the ’80s pop song “Voices Carry” by ’til Tuesday, which is about an abused woman who keeps trying to tell her insensitive doofus of a boyfriend that his treatment of her upsets her, only to be met by him telling her, “Shush, voices carry.”

    He doesn’t care about her hurt feelings, he cares that others may gossip about anything they overhear her say about his crummy treatment of her.
    You Tube: “Voices Carry” Music Video

    Complementarians and Patriarchalists always want women to shut up, don’t let their voices be heard.

    And yes, I am aware that Lori is likely basing her view here on a lone verse somewhere in the NT that talks about how a woman can get her (Non-Christian?) husband to believe in Christ by her “godly” behavior – I think it can be dangerous for Christians to take one or two verses such as this and prescribe them for every situation, every couple, etc. I don’t think some Bible verses are meant to be utilized this way.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Lea, Lori called out Ken on her YouTube video about immodest women saying that she’s glad she was in front of him when they were being seated by a young woman wearing leggings. As if he can’t see around her and he’s not mature enough to mind his eyes. She also said he was continuing learning to avert his eyes. Lori, who says that husbands don’t need their wives to be a mother to them, was basically saying that Ken still acts like a child.

    I called out Lori for being kind of creepy by looking at women’s butts, breasts, and down their shirts.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Lori A wrote,

    It’s important for you to keep the family together as long as possible because your family is sanctified when you live out a godly life in front of them.

    The Holy Spirit sanctifies a person. Marriage doesn’t sanctify anyone. A believing person doesn’t have to have a spouse to be sanctified.

    Lori A wrote,

    When you’re not around, Jesus is not there, but when you’re in the home with your children and your husband, Jesus is there living inside of you.

    I thought Jesus is God, and God is omnipresent? (Did I type that right? The word that means “God is every where all the time.”)

    Being omnipresent is one of his God-like qualities. -But Lori said nope?

    Liked by 3 people

  7. Win your husband without a word doesn’t sound all that far removed from leading by ‘being examples to the flock’. Maybe elders should be silent too!! I’m going to write a book about that.

    she’s glad she was in front of him when they were being seated by a young woman wearing leggings.

    Leggings cover everything. The modesty police have zero internal consistency!

    And if Ken hasn’t ‘learned to avert his eyes’ by 50 or 60 or whatever he is, I doubt he’s going to learn now.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. OP:

    Lori also states that wives need to endure difficult times in order to be a godly witness to their husbands and that this is a powerful testimony to the world. Let’s think about that for a minute.

    How do you think non-Christians perceive this teaching for a Christian wife? Do you think really think that they will see Jesus through a teaching that encourages wives to stay with husbands who are cheaters, watch pornography, or are alcoholics? Lori is telling women that they need to stay in a destructive marriage in order to preach the gospel. This is NOT the gospel message!

    I used to read a lot of apologetic content in my teens to my early 30s. In all the years I read works by Christians defending the Christian faith, and in my time lurking at atheist forums and atheist sites, I never once saw a story by an atheist who said,

    “I was finally convinced to believe in the existence of a deity by seeing marriages by complementarian Christians, especially ones where the wife was “enduring difficult” times or husbands! I am no longer an atheist. Thank you, complementarian wives for helping me see the light.”

    Liked by 3 people

  9. By the way. I’ve never been married. I may never marry, who knows? In the mean time remain single…

    Can someone explain to me how or if Lori explains how never-married adults model the Gospel for men, for husband, for atheists, and whomever else?

    The point I’m driving at (and I do apologize for beating this dead horse, but it annoys me endlessly) is at how a large percentage of Christians obsess over marriage, marriage, marriage, as though adult singles don’t exist or do not matter.

    Lori and those like her advocate marriage to a degree that the Bible never does. But she claims to believe in the Bible, and if you disagree with her, you’re disagreeing with God himself or with the Bible. That Bible she claims to speak for does not place the emphasis upon marriage that she does.

    Liked by 4 people

  10. I agree, Daisy, that ‘Christians get to stay in a marriage and be beaten to a pulp and belittled! That sounds like a God I can get behind’ is hardly a selling point.

    Kathi, I feel like Ken and Lori throw so much shade at each other sometimes! Ken talks about Lori being a difficult wife, and Lori talks about not even liking Ken….

    Liked by 1 person

  11. She is enabling men to continue the “blame game” that Adam started in the Garden of Eden… “It’s not my fault, it’s that wife you gave me.”
    And… if “grace-filled godly behavior” is what it takes to save those around us, then everyone around Jesus should have become believers. He is the only one who really got it all right, and yet the crowd cried, “Crucify him”.
    And… she is trying to get wives to control something they can’t control… the free will of another person.

    Liked by 3 people

  12. From the Original Post:

    First of all, where is Lori getting her information about why men have affairs? See, I can’t let it go.

    I’ve mentioned this on older threads of this blog, but from my reading, what I found out is that in some cases (a lot?) one reasons some men have affairs is precisely because the wife they are married to behaves in the doormat, passive demeanor Lori A. is prescribing for women.

    The psychiatrists behind these books explain when a man is married to a woman like Lori A is advocating for (a woman who is a passive, quiet, doormat who stifles her true feelings, caves in to what the guy wants 100% of the time etc), a lot of men feel a- un-needed by this,
    b- some find it un-challenging,
    c- some feel like they are a father not a husband, and some get
    d- very, very bored.

    The end result to any of those scenarios, a through d, is that the man will either commit adultery, and/or he will divorce the wife.

    Lori A’s advice to married women, is therefore, more likely to cause an affair or a divorce, not lessen it, if the books I’ve read by psychiatrists and therapists with 20+ years of clinical experience demonstrates anything.

    Like

  13. By the way, regarding my post of JUNE 28, 2017 @ 6:32 PM.

    The flip side of the coin, as described in those same books I referenced above or in other books by other psychiatrists, is that the type of men who DO want a passive, doormat wife, the type Lori A says women should be?

    Usually, the type of man who wants a doormat wife is either abusive, selfish, controlling, or immature and irresponsible.

    And one of the implied benefits of marrying a Male Head as put forth by complementarians such as Lori is that the woman (wife) will be well provided for, taken care of, etc.

    I was engaged to a controlling guy. My ex wanted to call all the shots in our relationship, from big decisions to which fast food restaurant we ate at.

    However, my ex (sorry again to be so dang repetitive) was a dim-witted goober. He was financially irresponsible.

    Had I married him, all our bills would’ve been paid late, we would’ve gone bankrupt due to his crummy job of balancing a check book, checks would have bounced, we would’ve been evicted from an apartments we rented, and so on.

    So, complementarians hold these incentives out for women – if you just allow the man to control you, you can be a stay at home wife and mother, with the husband paying all the bills, and putting a roof over your head.
    But sadly the type of guy who thinks or demands he be head of the household is sometimes an financially irresponsible doofus, or is controlling and abusive.

    If you’re a single woman, you do NOT want the kind of man you will attract by using the relationship and behavior advice the Lori Alexanders of the world dish out. She’s saying you’ll get a godly Prince Charming, but you are more apt to get a financially dead beet and /or selfish, abusive jerk weed.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. Daisy, men have affairs because they want to. Period.

    If you are unhappy with the relationship, you should deal with it or end it. Affairs are an attempt to have your cake and eat it too, or alternately to line up an alternative before you end the last relationship. I have no respect for that.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Kathi said,

    Lea, Lori called out Ken on her YouTube video about immodest women saying that she’s glad she was in front of him when they were being seated by a young woman wearing leggings

    To Lori A: I’m a virgin over the age of 40. I’ve never had sex. I wore leggings all the time as a teen, still sometimes do.

    Please, Lori A., explain to me how leggings make a person immodest when the person wearing them is still celibate into their 40s???

    In other words, Lori, the problem here is not me (or some other woman) wearing leggings, it’s with YOU sexualizing the woman who is wearing the leggings. The problem is with YOU and your heart attitude, not with the women who are wearing leggings.

    I am so tired of extreme, conservative Christians who keep citing leggings (some call them “yoga pants”) as being an example of slutty attire.

    There are women in Middle Eastern nations, that are Islamic in nature, who are pressured into wearing head- to- toe coverings, and they are still sometimes raped, cat-called or fondled by men in those nations.
    This leads me to believe that problem is not so much with women, or with what women wear, but with this sexist, entitled view some men hold that they think it’s acceptable to sexualize and sexually harass any and every woman they meet.

    Jesus didn’t put the onus on the one sinned against, but with the sinner. Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out – he did not tell women to wear longer skirts. Lori A. says she believes in the Bible, but no, she doesn’t, since she teaches and believes concepts that directly contradict the teachings that it contains.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Lea said,
    Daisy, men have affairs because they want to. Period.

    I agree, the responsibility is on the one having an affair.

    I was just saying in books I’ve read by many doctors who have seen hundreds of clients over the years, they’ve had husbands who have cited some of the same reasons over and over – such as being bored or feeling un-needed by the wife’s extreme passivity.

    None of the doctors writing this are saying that these cited reasons are justifiable reasons for a man to have an affair. They are not defending the cheaters or blaming the women. They are just reporting what they have seen in their many years of treating many patients.

    Like

  17. I am so tired of extreme, conservative Christians who keep citing leggings (some call them “yoga pants”) as being an example of slutty attire.

    I wear leggings to yoga! Take that, haters.

    Liked by 4 people

  18. they’ve had husbands who have cited some of the same reasons over and over

    I also want to say that I trust a husbands excuses for cheating about as far as I can throw them.

    That said, I agree with you that that behavior isn’t good for a relationship. That is true of a lot of things.

    Like

  19. Lea, I hope that in my posts above you didn’t construe what I was writing as being some kind of defense of adultery.

    I’m opposed to adultery.

    I mean, a guy saying he had an affair on his wife because he was bored with his wife (because she’s super passive, and he now wants a partner who will challenge him), is not a justifiable reason for him to cheat (not that any reason is).

    Ultimately, that guy should stay faithful to his wife, even if he’s bored with their marriage, or whatever he’s upset about.

    If he’s that unhappy in the marriage, rather than cheat, I think he should divorce his wife and find a more exciting partner.

    So, I didn’t mean to sound as though the women in such situations are to blame. I’m coming from it from more of a prevention angle.

    What I mean is, if you are a married woman, don’t listen to Lori A’s relationship advice, because it looks to me that if you follow it, your husband may grow bored with you or with the marriage and may be tempted to cheat on you (not that it would be right for him to do so!!).

    I was approaching it from that vantage point. I was in no way intending on defending adultery, or to say such husbands are justified in their cheating dirt-baggery actions. If any of that makes sense. I hope it does.

    I find it ten levels of ironic that Lori A., and other Christian complementarians, keep promoting advice to women, that, according to therapy and relationship books and articles I’ve read, is more apt to cause adultery and divorce than prevent it.

    Like

  20. I always wear leggings with long shirts, which covers my groin and rear end, if that helps calm Lori A. down, LOL. But I’m not going to obsess over women who let it all hang out.

    I sometimes wear leggings out in public, to go shopping. I wear capri length leggings in warmer months, and longer ones in the winter.

    I’ve spent my life being a sexually chaste person, so it annoys me that someone like Lori would see me wearing leggings in public and probably think to herself, “What a slut!,” and probably go home, fire up her Facebook group page or her blog, and write a big, nasty post about me.

    “Hey everyone, I saw this totally immodest woman out at the grocery store today! I had to cover Ken’s eyes!! This woman was wearing slutty legging pants!!”

    -Never mind, if that’s about me, again, I’m sexually chaste. I’ve never even had sex, so there goes her idea that I’m slutty.

    Lori A. needs to stop assuming that a woman dressing in a certain way or wearing a certain piece of clothing is an indication of that woman’s sexual past or sexual behavior. You usually cannot judge that based on the clothing alone.

    BTW, I’ve read about undercover police women who dress like hookers for their jobs. They have to dress in a flaunty way to catch “johns.” Would Lori A. assume all such police women are slutty? (Though I know she lives in Fantasy World where no women should work as a cop, or work at all…)

    Like

  21. I was in no way intending on defending adultery

    I get that.

    I just read an entire Lori article blaming women (and probably a specific person who doesn’t deserve it) for their husbands affairs. In the vast majority of cases.

    That is so wrong. And so toxic.

    Liked by 2 people

  22. Lea said,

    I also want to say that I trust a husbands excuses for cheating about as far as I can throw them.

    In some of those books I read, these reasons were not just cited in cases of adultery in marriage.

    I remember one guy who the therapist / psychologist lady wrote about who said he liked to “toy” with women who are very passive who he was dating.

    This guy would intentionally yank the chains of women he was dating, or be rude, selfish, or controlling towards them, to see how far he could boss these girlfriends around, to see how far, or for how long, he could mistreat them, before (or if) they would tell him to get bent and stand up to him.

    This guy said a lot of women put up with his garbage for a long, long time, and he was amazed by the amount of crap women would tolerate from a man. He seemed to find it amusing or fascinating at first, but…..
    He said after so many years of dating and doing this to women, he was bored. And he was lonely.

    He wanted a woman who would be a true life partner to him, which meant, he wanted a woman who would stand up for herself and tell him to kiss her a– if he started to get pushy, rude, or controlling.

    Like

  23. Daisy – Lori recently did a post about how women should not be police officers, firewomen, or be in the military. So women police officers who work undercover stings have a double whammy!

    Liked by 3 people

  24. I don’t mean to hog the comment box. I just re-read this part of my last post and wanted to say something else…

    He wanted a woman who would be a true life partner to him, which meant, he wanted a woman who would stand up for herself and tell him to kiss her a– if he started to get pushy, rude, or controlling.

    Just wanted to add it gets exhausting being in a relationship with a guy where everything becomes a fight. Where, if he’s like that guy, he’s always trying to take advantage of his GF (or wife), and he thinks it’s her duty to stand up to him constantly.

    One of 100 reasons I broke up with my ex fiance is that when things got to the point I began standing up to him and simply (and politely) stating my preferences and wants (such as, “Honey, I know you want to eat out tonight, but I”m not in the mood. Can we just order a pizza in?”), my ex would throw a fit.

    Everything with my ex, even small matters, became World War 3.

    After a few months of that, I started caving in. It was easier to cave in and give that doofus what he wanted than to stand my ground. I was mentally exhausted fighting for my choices or needs every single time for months.

    So, I stopped fighting for what I wanted and needs. I gave in to the ex all the time. However, after several months to 2 – 3 years of that, I grew resentful and broke up with him (among other reasons).

    So, yes, my ex got his way all the time, but it came at the expense of our relationship. There was NO WAY I was going to marry a guy who was going to basically steam-roll me into giving him his way all the time, while my needs and preferences went unmet.

    My ex really did consider our relationship to be harmonious so long as he got his way all the time.

    He viewed me as speaking up (even politely) as “fighting” – so long as I did not express my views or needs to him, or disagree when he wanted to eat out at Burger Land (when I wanted to stay in) or whatever he wanted…
    he felt we had a great, peaceful relationship, when, in reality, I was swallowing my needs the entire time, just to avoid fights with him, because he felt me speaking up was equivalent to a fight.

    No human being can live that out indefinitely. That is what complemnetarian like Lori Alexander are asking of women: to never get their needs met, to cave in to selfish child-men who have to get their needs met at the expense of the woman’s, etc.

    It simply does not work in the long run. I’d rather be single and free than stifle my needs and wants constantly to cater to a selfish guy.

    Like

  25. I believe the text about “winning your husband over without a word” can best be illustrated by the behavior of Lee Strobel’s wife. They were both unsaved when first married. No unequal yoking took place. Then Mrs. Strobel (Can’t remember her name. Sorry.) decided to come to Jesus, but Lee didn’t. She didn’t argue with him about her decision or pressure Lee to go to church. Yet through the change in her behavior (under the influence of the Holy Spirit) Lee decided there was something to this Jesus thing after all and eventually became a Christian.

    That text would not apply to a wife of a “Christian” husband who was adulterous or beating the crap out of her every night. When a woman puts up with this abuse she is allowing her husband to blaspheme the LORD. (Wife beating is an act of blasphemy worse than 20 Dan Brown novels!) She is also allowing him to damage any kids they have. She is helping a fellow human to do something morally wrong. She is putting the Temple of the Holy Spirit in a place to be damaged and broken. And staying with the monster may be an act of suicide.

    If a Christian wife with an abusive husband is reading this, take the kids and run! You have no moral obligation to put up with his evil. In fact the reverse could be said.

    Liked by 2 people

  26. Kathi said,

    Daisy – Lori recently did a post about how women should not be police officers, firewomen, or be in the military. So women police officers who work undercover stings have a double whammy!

    Am so not surprised!!

    Whether Lori Alexander likes it or not, women are in fact working as police officers and in other professions. I wrote about it here (on my Miss Daisy Blog):
    _Examples of Girls and Women Being Assertive at Work, in Life, Women as Rescuers and Heroines_

    What does Lori A/ think is going to happen? Does she really think all women around the world are going to quit their jobs to do as she says? She’s really fighting a hopeless battle. Lori Alexander is tilting at windmills.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. Lori clearly does not understand the mindset and methods of “Christian” abusers who are unaffected by loving submission. Abuser’s don’t soften. They take and take and take some more until their victims are empty and broken. What then, Lori?

    What does she mean by encouraging (apparently hurting) wives to remain in their homes “as long as possible”? How long is that exactly? Do abused women need to check in with Lori to get her stamp of approval before leaving?

    I can assure Lori that, in spite of my efforts (and her fervent assurances), when my kids and I finally left, our home was anything but sanctified.

    Liked by 3 people

  28. cindy burrell said,

    I can assure Lori that, in spite of my efforts (and her fervent assurances), when my kids and I finally left, our home was anything but sanctified.

    It’s scary and unsettling to see Christians such as Lori A. who are so driven to defend a pet doctrine of theirs (with her, it’s complementarianism), she will throw people under the bus to spread it or defend it.

    She will remain in denial, or simply does not care, if her doctrine puts you or whomever in harm’s way.

    She doesn’t want to admit your experience doesn’t gel with her world view

    (hey, I ran into this on another blog recently – another member who was annoyed that in my personal experience, and that of my family, we were not helped with our psychological problems / addictions with secular therapy or medications any more than we were helped by pastors or the Christian faith – the member who was miffed at me is a big promoter of secular psychology, medications, and so forth. I wrote about that on my Miss Daisy blog).

    There are people who are so beholden to a world view, opinion, or way of doing things, or to a particular doctrine, they will deny your personal experience, and how your experience contradicts what they are preaching.

    Based on what I’ve seen that the rest of you here have posted from Lori’s books and Facebook group and blog to this blog:
    Lori Alexander doesn’t really care about women, and not even hurting women: she cares about defending her interpretation of what she thinks the Bible says about gender and marriage and mental health problems.

    Liked by 2 people

  29. The Blog post’s title,
    “Book Review Series – Lori Alexander’s “The Power of a Transformed Wife” – Shhhh…Be Very, Very Quiet”

    I forgot to say this earlier, but this reminds me of the Bugs Bunny cartoons I used to watch when I was a kid, when hunter Elmer Fudd would say, “Shh, be very very quiet, I’m hunting wabbit!” I’d rather watch Bugs Bunny cartoons than read anything Lori has to say about gender roles. 🙂

    Liked by 4 people

  30. Sigh…and that’s why the unbiblical “counseling” that ACBC (previously NANC) offers is such ungodly rubbish. My friend is still dealing with the shock she received from THAT lot. BTW, not only ACBC but other “Christian counseling” jobs too. Money talks and anyone can become one because the “rewards” (money and imagined power and control) are great. Ugh. My open warning: Stay away from these things.

    And this Lori woman is looney tunes, IMO. I can hear them rattlings… She should just stop. Everything.

    Kathi, it scratches my armpits too when someone quotes without citing or at least telling is who said it. It borders on being a false attribution. If it’s one’s own (original) thoughts; well, great, if it isn’t, tell us.

    Liked by 1 person

  31. @ Cindy Burell:

    “What does she mean by encouraging (apparently hurting) wives to remain in their homes “as long as possible”? How long is that exactly? Do abused women need to check in with Lori to get her stamp of approval before leaving?

    I can assure Lori that, in spite of my efforts (and her fervent assurances), when my kids and I finally left, our home was anything but sanctified.”

    I get you, Cindy…100%. I walked in the same stinking path.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. What does she mean by encouraging (apparently hurting) wives to remain in their homes “as long as possible”? How long is that exactly?

    Cindy, Until you ‘win them’ I guess?

    The truth is, they don’t have good answer for when things aren’t working. It’s all handwavium, or suffer for Jesus or something. Suffering because your husband is awful is not suffering for Jesus. And all that talk about sanctification is maddening.

    Liked by 2 people

  33. Lori Alexander doesn’t really care about women, and not even hurting women: she cares about defending her interpretation of what she thinks the Bible says about gender and marriage and mental health problems.

    This.

    Not only that, she will blame women for every problem, every time. Because if she doesn’t, her whole worldview collapses.

    Liked by 4 people

  34. Ah yes, because not telling someone why you’re frustrated with them // ignoring the problem altogether will TOTALLY make it go away!!

    Um no. My parents are… I guess comp-by-default?? I’m not completely sure how to describe, but my mother buys into that worldview big time. Throw in some passive-aggressiveness on both sides, and you get… the oldest child (me) playing marriage therapist starting at age 12 or so because SOMEONE has to damage-control the situation. Their view of gender roles means that they rarely if ever TALK to each other about problems. Instead, they talk to me (now twentysomething oldest child still living at home) and expect me to communicate their side of the issue to the other partner. Because they can’t do it themselves. Or my mother uses it as another opportunity to get sympathy from her “friends”, who are also completely unhelpful.

    When will people realize that comp marriage advice, as a general whole, DOES NOT WORK?!

    Like

  35. A little clue about lori’s definition of gospel: she made a video a few weeks ago about how she studies the Bible. She said the point of the gospels is to show people they need a savior. She said she doesn’t read them often because they’re not “instructions for the church age.” She reads Romans through Revelation and generally ignores any instructions in the gospels, by her own account. Basically, she’s the most hardcore dispensationalist I’ve ever “known” and frankly, a heretical one at that.

    Liked by 3 people

  36. She said she doesn’t read them often because they’re not “instructions for the church age.”

    What???? I have never heard anyone say that. I can’t even imagine what I would say in response!

    Liked by 1 person

  37. Stephanie said, “A little clue about lori’s definition of gospel: she made a video a few weeks ago about how she studies the Bible. She said the point of the gospels is to show people they need a savior. She said she doesn’t read them often because they’re not “instructions for the church age.” She reads Romans through Revelation and generally ignores any instructions in the gospels, by her own account. Basically, she’s the most hardcore dispensationalist I’ve ever “known” and frankly, a heretical one at that.”

    Wow! Lori is such a hypocrite. She loves to quote to others how the whole Bible is good for instruction, etc. and yet she ignores part of it by her own admission.🙄 Also, since she claims she’s a prophet and teacher she needs an understanding of the whole Bible – the 4 gospels are a big part of that. This explains more about Lori. She really has no business teaching others – she doesn’t handle biblical truth correctly nor does she even care about people.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Stephanie, do you remember which video of Lori’s she states she doesn’t read the gospels very often? I can’t seem to find which video that is. Thanks.😃

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  39. @Boston Lady:

    “Kathi, it scratches my armpits too when someone quotes without citing or at least telling is who said it. It borders on being a false attribution. If it’s one’s own (original) thoughts; well, great, if it isn’t, tell us.”

    I had to laugh when I read the part about scratchy armpits. Last week I had an allergic reaction to my shaving cream and my armpits were on fire! I told Julie Anne I wondered if Lori placed a curse on me when I challenged Ken on Facebook about his last post.

    Liked by 1 person

  40. @Daisy:

    “I forgot to say this earlier, but this reminds me of the Bugs Bunny cartoons I used to watch when I was a kid, when hunter Elmer Fudd would say, “Shh, be very very quiet, I’m hunting wabbit!” I’d rather watch Bugs Bunny cartoons than read anything Lori has to say about gender roles. 🙂”

    I admit I had a difficult time not adding, “I’m hunting wabbit” to the title! 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  41. The claim that affairs happen only in bad marriages is bullsh*t.

    Even men in good marriages have affairs. They just lie about being neglected at home to get sympathy from their affair partner or mistress.

    And silence? Really?

    What about men who love exuberant outgoing women?

    Maybe Lori’s husband doesn’t want to hear her, but many of us are well-loved women whose husbands enjoy talking with us! (Because that’s what a good marriage is: Two people who like each other.)

    Liked by 2 people

  42. @Anonymous2:

    “(Because that’s what a good marriage is: Two people who like each other.)”

    That’s Lori and Ken basic problem. They went into the marriage not liking each other. They stayed married not liking each other. Then,the only way they seem to like each other is since Ken’s been in charge and Lori’s been submissive. I’m guessing they still live uncomfortably together because Lori can’t stand to give up being in charge even though she says she is following God’s ways.

    Liked by 2 people

  43. I recently came across this woman’s blog. Not knowing anything about her history , book, or her toxic theology I commented by gently offering a rebuttle of sorts. It was contextually correct. I looked up the Greek meaning of a main word she was focusing on as her main point. It was completely the wrong meaning for the context she was using it in.I made a note on that too. Zero response from her. The comment was not approved.
    I sat back and wondered what type of woman would not want gentle correction, when leading people. Especially when leading people in the name of Christ. I was baffled that she wouldn’t want to acknowledge her mistake in light of leading people into false doctrine.
    Well, one peek over at Freejinger was enough to set me straight. I had no idea she was a wack job of those proportions.
    I personally believe she is arrogant to her core setting herself up as the saviour of her household ,has been given over to her sin as she refuses to acknowledge the truth and has exchanged it for a lie.
    No words from anyone will change her mind.

    Liked by 3 people

  44. Anonymous2 – They just lie about being neglected at home to get sympathy from their affair partner or mistress.

    Yes! You can NOT trust what a cheater says about his reasons. He is a liar, by default.

    That’s Lori and Ken basic problem. They went into the marriage not liking each other. They stayed married not liking each other.

    I completely agree! And they still make digs at each other about various things. It’s crazy that these people are giving marriage advice.

    Liked by 2 people

  45. @RachelNichols:

    I thought it was horrible how Kate Gosslin publicly mocked and humiliated her husband (and children) on John and Kate Plus 8. It was also horrible how John committed adultery and left her for another woman. Bad choices on both sides!

    I’m sure the two are connected. He left a woman who publicly mocked and humiliated him while the Reality Show cameras ran 24/7 for a woman who actually treated him decent (with NO Reality Show cameras in sight).

    Didn’t help their J&K+8 Study Bible sales (including their Testimony), though.

    And remember that after the divorce, which one continued the Reality Show under a slightly different title (K+8)?

    “I’m gonna be
    I’m gonna be
    I’m gonna be FAMOUS!!!!!”

    –opening theme to Total Drama Island

    Liked by 1 person

  46. @Lea:

    <

    blockquote> That’s Lori and Ken basic problem. They went into the marriage not liking each other. They stayed married not liking each other.

    I completely agree! And they still make digs at each other about various things. It’s crazy that these people are giving marriage advice.

    <

    blockquote>
    Synergistic in their misery, like a Bitch & Nag married to a Drunk and Proud of It.

    If they split up, they’d both lose their live-in dig targets.

    Like

  47. @Stephanie:

    A little clue about lori’s definition of gospel: she made a video a few weeks ago about how she studies the Bible. She said the point of the gospels is to show people they need a savior. She said she doesn’t read them often because they’re not “instructions for the church age.”

    Now THAT’s Dispy!

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  48. I almost married a guy I didn’t like but broke it off. He had many traits that would have been great for a woman in the complementarian scheme. Beta males are nice, but the poor guy had no backbone or guts. The next fiance made threats on my family of origin. I sicked the police on him and haven’t heard from the jerk in the two years since. Happy ending!

    Maybe Ken likes Lori’s silence. She kept nagging about his eating habits, his TV watching, his looking at women wearing yoga pants (without covering his eyes and screaming in horror), and his grumpiness. Now why do you suppose Ken would be grumpy at his cantankerous, nagging wife? As a woman, I would not want someone like Lori for a roommate. 😛

    Liked by 2 people

  49. Someone on another site recently linked to post Lori made.

    It’s a photo of a hand-written set of comments on a piece of lined notebook paper (I take it that Lori posted this on her blog or facebook group?)

    After having read that handwritten note (that says women are obligated to give their husband sex, and they, the wife have to enjoy, no faking, etc), and after taking into consideration everything I’ve seen about Lori on this site…

    I now wonder if Lori A. is one of those people who is unhappy or miserable in her choices in life, and all these posts she writes to other women to convince them to live as she does, are an attempt to convince herself to enjoy this sort of life she advocates?

    I really do get the impression now that Lori is writing to convince herself that her marriage or way of life are great, but deep down, she has resentment, or regret or unhappiness.

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  50. I’m pretty sure this is by Lori – the URL on the photo says “the transformed wife”- this is a transcript by me taken from the photo of the hand-written note that showed up on another site:

    (by Lori Aledander (?))
    Women falsely believe if they don’t “feel” like being intimate with their husband then they shouldn’t have to be.

    It would be wrong to fake it, they claim. Is it wrong to fake it? Is there a Bible verse that states “Thou shalt not fake sexual intimacy” or “Only do what you feel like doing”? Not in my Bible!

    We are commanded to not deprive our husband. We are told to love him and want the best for him. We are instructed to deny ourselves, be living sacrifices, and learn what pleases our husband.

    We don’t live by our feelings but in obedience to the LORD, therefore we joyfully satisfy our husband’s sexual needs, for we understand that in obeying hte LORD there is great reward

    I know the site’s URL contains the phrase “transformed wife,” but (and I’m sorry if I’ve asked this before, but I cannot remember), why is Lori (or whomever is behind that site) so obsessed with pressuring wives to meet a husband’s needs?
    Does she ever do blog posts pressuring men to make sure they are pleasing their wives sexually, and otherwise?

    The Bible does not present marriage as being a one-way street or one-sided relationship, where only the man gets his needs met all the time and the woman never does, or the man gets his needs and wants met but at the expense of the wife’s.

    I repressed all my needs in my relationship with my ex fiance’ but after years and years of that doofus getting his way in the relationship all the time, and mine going unmet, it resulted in a bunch of resentment (not “joyful” whatever Lori called it), I grew tired of it, so I broke up with my ex, among other reasons.

    The same would happen in a marriage – if one partner is getting their way all the time at the expense of the other, that is not going to be a lasting marriage.

    That is reality no matter how you slice it, and I don’t care one iota what Lori’s twisted interpretation of the Bible says to the contrary.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. Post Script.
    When Lori or whomever it was wrote….

    We don’t live by our feelings but in obedience to the LORD, therefore we joyfully satisfy our husband’s sexual needs, for we understand that in obeying the LORD there is great reward

    I am grossed out at how this author (Lori?) conflates sexuality or sexual activity with God. Seems out of place.

    I don’t want to see religious commentary where “pleasing one’s husband sexually” is in the same paragraph, sentence, or chapter as anything about God, worshipping God, obeying God, etc. Seems to be very inappropriate or skeezy.

    Liked by 1 person

  52. @Daisy:

    Does she ever do blog posts pressuring men to make sure they are pleasing their wives sexually, and otherwise?

    I’m gonna guess no because women in that culture aren’t supposed to want sex. Ever. Under any circumstances known to humankind. And yet they are expected to give it whenever it is asked of them.

    Even when I was heavily enmeshed in that worldview and thought I was asexual (whole ‘nother unrelated story there), I did not get how that was supposed to be a good idea. I still don’t, but at least now I have words for why it bugs me so much.

    Liked by 2 people

  53. be living sacrifices, and learn what pleases our husband

    This is how Lori views sex. That is terribly sad.

    And no, daisy, I have never seen any of these patriarchal types talk about how to please wives. I have to think from talk like the above a lot of them are doing a really bad job of it.

    Liked by 2 people

  54. @Daisy –

    Lori’s blog is The Transformed Wife, as is the title of her book. Her former blog was Always Learning – this is still up but she doesn’t post there. The notebook pages you saw is a regular feature on her Facebook page (same name as blog). She hand writes these pages and posts them as photos. She sometimes uses them as a photo on a blog post.

    “Does she ever do blog posts pressuring men to make sure they are pleasing their wives sexually, and otherwise?”

    No, she will never directly teach men because she does not believe that is a woman’s place. Ken, her husband, however, will regularly address women and their issues in marriage. I called him out on this and he had a lame reason why it was okay for him to address women on Lori’s blog which is geared toward women. This is one of my many problems with Lori and Ken. They continually call out women as being the main problem in troubled marriages. They’ll give lip service to “difficult men” who have affairs, drink, or use pornography but it always comes back around to what did the wife do to contribute to this and she should sacrifice to stay in a destructive marriage for the sake of her husband.

    Liked by 2 people

  55. I have been reading the educational commentary here and appreciate the gems of information put forth by all. I still want to commend Kathi for reading Lori’s (and Ken’s) material, pointing out their lifestyles of inconsistency. You are strong and courageous Kathi, and I want to thank-you for ministering to me, a woman/child of the living God. I am truly grateful to you.

    I’m finding it difficult to even grasp the fact that believers in Jesus Christ even desire to read, or try to emulate the lifestyles of Lori and Ken (Oh, oh! I should have put Ken’s name first for the sake of not offending!) per their view of religion, which they call Christianity. Looking to the Alexanders as examples of Christian living is lunacy and idolatrous at the very least, and the fact that Lori does not point people to Jesus as the LORD and Savior of their lives, focusing on His teachings, is deeply disturbing to me. Does not our Scriptures state that when believers are saved, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside of our being (soul/bodies-the temples of the Holy Spirit)? And does not Scripture state that God, the Holy Spirit, always testifies of Jesus, the Christ, and no one else? Perhaps Lori and Ken’s view of the Ekklesia, the called out ones/congregations, are grossly distorted and they are believing in a lie or numerous lies.

    To equate sexual activity with pleasing our LORD is not of God, but of the cults, and going back into history, pleasing the gods with sex is actually associated with pagan religions/rituals. There is something “off” here with Lori’s view of pleasing our Savior.

    I wonder if the Alexander’s would be “offended (popular Christianese word)” for not abiding in their “authority (another word the lord it over types love)” concerning how the rest of us view marriage and relationships from the non-hierarchal view at the foot of the Cross. Perhaps they both would be grossly offended for the “words” and “thoughts” expressed here as women are told to shush the tongue.

    At the end of the day, when reading and rejoicing in the Gospels, I find it joyfully wonderful that many woman didn’t shut their mouths, for once they met the living Savior of the world, they departed and excitedly told others of the prophet/Messiah they personally had an encounter with! And I often wonder, if the married women kept quiet about their encounters, hoping to ‘win over’ their husbands for Jesus back in their day, or if they were bursting with joy and had to share it with someone, meaning their husbands first!

    Having experienced the prison-like atmosphere of a cult church, the hierarchy there, especially the men, were uncomfortable when many of us lower laity women spoke of Jesus and the truths we were learning from our Scriptures during our conversations, apart from their influence/teachings. These men (as well as a few prideful ‘spiritually mature’ women) were uncomfortable with the fact that our inspiration was NOT coming from their teachings, their book and CD recommendations,and their favorite pastors/leaders within the Christian industrial complex. How in the world could we learn anything in our Bibles apart from their influence? How dare we not include their names in rightly dividing the Word of God?

    I found it more and more interesting that I could freely speak of Jesus and my faith in Him with your average worker/believer at Walmart standing there in the aisle, then I could with the pastor/leadership minions, all complementarian types, and all of the “spiritual mothers – yes, these women loved to be called that from us lower laity women) without constantly being corrected, condemned, or receiving that proverbial ‘religious eye ball rolling’ that I became accustomed too.

    How sad it is when believers use Alexanders’ teachings/philosophies in their lives in place of Jesus Christ and His teachings/His Ways.

    Liked by 3 people

  56. Thanks, Katy. I’m glad you are finding these helpful. While there are certain things that Lori will stick with, there are a lot of inconsistencies in her teachings. I know people can change their views and the way they do things, but there are times when I wonder if she really has her story straight.

    Liked by 2 people

  57. As a “godly” complementarian wife, I’m sure Lori never has an original thought or opinion without running it past Ken first. “Don’t ask me! I’m just a stupid girl! Tee hee!”

    In Ken’s defense, he seems to have more brains.

    The problem with trying to make ourselves more stupid than we are is that we so often succeed.~C. S. Lewis

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  58. Perhaps there has been so much hidden abuse behind the scenes that Lori’s soul/being has been so wounded, that she appears to have less brains and is living in a delusional fog. I have literally witnessed women who began their marriages sharp as a tack, and years later, have become lifeless, insecure, and dependent upon their all knowing, all for show abuser.

    I’m not so sure Ken has more brains than his wife here. I am not convinced.

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  59. I’m not so sure Ken has more brains than his wife here. I am not convinced.

    All i ever read from Ken are stupid things. But those things are actually beneficial to him, I guess, so maybe it’s not that he’s stupid, just malicious and self-motivated? Maybe it’s stupid like a fox.

    Lori’s stuff does seem bad for her, though.

    I can’t say I’m impressed with either of them.

    Liked by 1 person

  60. @Octavia:

    I’m gonna guess no because women in that culture aren’t supposed to want sex. Ever. Under any circumstances known to humankind. And yet they are expected to give it whenever it is asked of them.

    Just like in PORNOGRAPHY.
    Or Inflatable Sex Dolls.

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  61. @Octavia:I’m gonna guess no because women in that culture aren’t supposed to want sex. Ever.

    Which is massively confusing but if they are teaching men this it explains some of the crazy opinions about modesty/lust I was reading the other day!

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  62. One of the things I read was that you ‘never see men wearing as little as women’ because of some dumb reason having to do with women dressing for men.

    To which I replied
    1. Men also dress for women (although maybe these guys don’t and that’s part of why the women stuck with them aren’t as visually attracted? Like step it up? )
    2. I see shirtless men, men in tight clothes etc all the time in summer.

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  63. Frankly I find shirtless men embarrassing.

    Oh no! Men are all spawns of Satan sent to lure righteous women from a godly life. Villainous incubus, away with you! 😀

    That’s what it would be like if women ran the complementarian churches. If men are such crazed, egotistical sex maniacs how are they so wise and spiritually superior?

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  64. Quote:

    Her views are incredibly inconsistent. She is constantly contradicting herself and capturing such instances is one of the aims behind my site.

    I was recently on another site where a few people posted a few different things by Lori.

    One of them was – not inconsistent – but she doesn’t clarify her views enough to be meaningful.

    If I am remembering the example I saw correctly, (according to the person post), Lori once said a few years ago that women don’t owe their husbands sex if the husband did something evil, but, she now tells wives they always have to give a husband sex even if they don’t feel like it, and she never did define what “evil” meant.

    She never gave examples of things husbands do that would grant wives a right to say no to sex. So, Lori leaves women hanging. I think her advice is terrible and sexist, but, that aside, what good is her advice if she doesn’t define the terms in such a way it can be applicable?

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  65. Lea – regardless of the merits or otherwise of leggings, do you think it is wise to get involved with yoga, with its occultic background? It may be a bit of an aside from the topic at hand, but certainly not unimportant to your spiritual well-being.

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  66. Kas, not sure what you think goes on at yoga..but I can guarantee there have been no occultic practice at any I have attended. There was beer a time or two.

    Liked by 1 person

  67. Kas, whether to do yoga or not is up to each individual to decide. We are free to choose. Yoga itself is not evil and some people say they find great benefits from the exercises. If you believe it’s wrong for you then by all means follow your conscience and others need to follow their conscience.

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  68. KAS – there are many things Christians do that have origins in the occult/paganism; i.e., Christmas, Easter, Pilates (yoga), Halloween, etc. However, for years, Christians have adapted these holidays and practices and removed the “bad” and replaced with the good. When we celebrate Christmas, we don’t focus on any of the pagan references, but instead make the focus on Christ. I’ve been doing Pilates which is based on yoga for 20 years. There is nothing spiritual that I am doing when I am doing these stretches, trust me. I might say a few “ouches” when I stretch tight muscles, but that’s it. 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

  69. Julie Anne, weddings themselves–traditional western “Christian” ceremonies are fraught with pagan symbols and imagery. Even the rings and their placement on third fingers of left hands are connected with some pagan idea. Palm-reading or astrology I believe.

    Hebrew tradition would place the wedding band on the bride’s right index finger–the finger she would use to help her husband read the Torah to their future family. Our so-called Christian weddings are more akin to those of the ancient pagan Romans. Only their brides wore yellow–the color of ripe wheat.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. Hebrew tradition would place the wedding band on the bride’s right index finger–the finger she would use to help her husband read the Torah to their future family.

    How very interesting!!

    And since you mentioned colors, in India (since we are talking yoga) white is a color of mourning and would not be used in traditional weddings. A friend got married in a red sari (iirc, there were a lot of pictures!)

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  71. KAS – I have found a great physical benefit to yoga. I don’t have as many aches in my back, I sleep better at night, and as I’m getting older, keeping flexible is helpful. I can do yoga purely for physical exercise and not focus on the spirituality behind it.

    Liked by 2 people

  72. My adopted sister came from Korea. In their traditional weddings the bride wears an emerald green dress.

    If I ever marry (doubtful) I plan on wearing a gray cotton dress with a simple pattern. I’m well past forty. Those white wedding gowns and veils were meant for young maidens–not old maids. Plus the modern gowns are way too skimpy for me!

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  73. I have found a great physical benefit to yoga.

    Kathi, there has been a lot of research on various aspects of yoga for pain and ptsd..very interesting.

    Practically I have a million great stretches to fit any occasion and for after biking and have improved my upper body strength too.

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  74. Lea – Yes,in regard to PTSD, yoga may be very beneficial to those who have experienced trauma, and for that I highly advocate yoga under guidance. For those who have experienced sexual assault, it can be very tough to do, but it can help a survivor process the trauma and begin to regain their sense of control over their body.

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  75. Pingback: Book Review Series – Lori Alexander’s “The Power of a Transformed Wife” – Shhhh…Be Very, Very Quiet, Part 2 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  76. I think this quote really shows what’s happening: “It’s important for you to keep the family together as long as possible because your family is sanctified when you live out a godly life in front of them.”

    This is a completely Pharisaical flip of the intended meaning. The context of the blessing is the covenant. The children fall under the covenant because one of the parents is a branch grafted into the true vine. It isn’t the branch’s WORKS that bring the blessing, but the blessing of being in the vine.

    So, instead of the husband and children being blessed by the work of the Holy Spirit through the wife, Lori flips it to the wife somehow being the source of the blessing through her works.

    And, this is why Lori is always going to revert to blaming the wife. She doesn’t understand the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gets replaced by the mental determination of the wife, who Lori then blames when anything bad happens. I know a lot of church leaders like that. They don’t want to trust the Holy Spirit to change people, so they apply inordinate amounts of pressure (i.e. church discipline/bullying) and when that doesn’t give immediate results, they resort to excommunication. An elder once told me that the main cause for excommunication in my last denomination was insubordination (not obeying the elders).

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  77. KAS: “Lea – regardless of the merits or otherwise of leggings, do you think it is wise to get involved with yoga, with its occultic background?”

    You should read up on the genetic fallacy. Just because something has a pagan or occultic background doesn’t mean that it is, in and of itself occult.

    There are many, many things in our culture that have pagan or occult backgrounds. Things like wedding rings, Christmas, Easter, Christmas trees, etc., were generally adopted from cultural traditions and given Christian meanings.

    We definitely have to be discerning when participating in some of these traditions to discern what is beneficial, but otherwise, it’s often best to follow Paul’s advice and don’t ask where it came from.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. For those who have experienced sexual assault, it can be very tough to do

    Thanks Kathi. I didn’t want to go off into too much of tangent, but I have read several articles regarding how yoga teachers might best teach to students with PTSD. Mine will correct a posture and usually he’s good about asking and you can certainly ask him not to before class, but I could see that being a barrier. I think the research studies kept these things in mind, so someone might be more cautious if just showing up to a regular class.

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  79. Amen Mark! Your 12:55 PM post is spot on! This is precisely why Lori may reject the Gospels in focusing upon the Epistles. Jesus spoke of the “Helper”, the Holy Spirit, in leading people to Himself, which indwells in every believer. Without the pure, unadulterated teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Lori has successfully replaced His Word with another gospel and another jesus of her own understanding.

    A replacement type of theology. If Jesus, did in fact, come to set the captives free, Lori does the exact opposite, by putting people in bondage to her snake oil philosophies disguised as Christianity. This is not true Biblical freedom in Jesus Christ, but a works based theology/world view in earning your way into Heaven. Salvation comes through Jesus, the Christ, not Lori or any other human being or tradition of man, or vain philosophies.

    And it appears, by Lori’s teachings, that the woman must work harder to earn her place in the home and in the visible apostate church in order to be accepted by her other jesus. The church age of the New Testament is far, far different that what we experience here in the western cultures.

    Liked by 2 people

  80. And you have to marry too. I always understood that ensoulment took place at conception and salvation when you came to Christ. Yet to hear many churches talk, singles have no part in the Kingdom of Heaven and probably have no souls.

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  81. Mark and others who commented on yoga: to be positive, I am all in favour of everyone keeping themselves fit. And I know some Christians regard yoga as a set of physical exercises and nothing more. My point earlier on was whether or not you can actually separate the physical exercises from the religious/occultic side to yoga.

    A good friend of mine years ago whose discernment I trust thought not. So it might well pay to consider this and read around the subject a bit.

    It’s not something I have given much thought to for along time. There are plenty of other abberations and odd or weird doctrines creeping into the professing church these days. The discernment level seems to be zilch!

    As for the origin of something, if the root is bad, so will the fruit be. I think it does pay to read up on the origins of things like Christmas. There is a huge amount of baggage around this one that has nothing to do with the gospels at all. It is almost certainly the most ‘worldly’ time of year, but that does not mean I think christmas trees could be demonic!

    Sorry about the delay, but real life has been happening yet it seemed a bit rude not to reply.

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  82. I am suffering from a chronic illness and could benefit from stretching. I did some investigating and discovered Praise Moves. A Christian alternative to yoga. I also meditate because it’s scriptural. Just not the way the pagans do it.

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  83. Mark – I think wedding rings are analagous to christmas trees. Some over-sensitive evangelicals have problems with them that I don’t.

    Yoga is somewhat different if the physical exercise cannot be seperated from the religious content.

    I don’t think you can get into much trouble with artifacts, inanimate objects. Something like incorporating pagan activities, such as certain forms of meditation can lead you into problems. Things like inner healing, where you can get results regardless of your deity of choice. It is not possible to christianise these things. It’s sad just how common some of this is – just look at the wholesale dececption or outfits like Willow Creek for examples of pseudo-christian mysticism.

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  84. I think there is a bigger picture. There are angelic and demonic forces and there is natural law.

    For example, stretching may have come out of some near-eastern religion and been tied to some demonic force, but the act itself is not necessarily spiritual or religious, despite its origin.

    Meditation is spiritual, and there are many religions, including Christianity, that practice meditation in various forms. We need to be discerning that when we meditate, we are following the lead of the Holy Spirit.

    Prayer is something akin to that – Jesus said don’t use vain repetition. I think that was a cultic practice that had been brought into the Jewish worship. Probably a prayer formula that somehow God was pleased with us going through the motions (Rosary, anyone?)

    But, I’m quite hesitant to dismiss martial arts, or yoga, out of hand. I think that there are natural and therapeutic benefits that aren’t inextricably coupled to some demonic eastern religion.

    The point of the wedding ring is that it arose from cultic beliefs and persists. Weddings themselves are full of superstitious traditions that we now think are quaint (something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue), throwing rice (fertility rite), not seeing the bride before the altar.

    To your artifact point, though, I’ve heard of people coming out of Buddhism visiting Christians who had bought those cute little Buddha statues. Needless to say, the cute little Buddha meant something completely to people who grew up in that religion. Interestingly, Germany, whose worship of Odin’s Oak tree was perhaps the origin of the Christmas Tree, was the source of the Christmas Carol, “O Christmas Tree”. I wonder if they were really past their tree worshiping tendencies at that point.

    Also, remember that Christmas itself, a holiday that Evangelicals (Keep Christ in Christmas) consider so tightly coupled with Christ, was a pagan holiday (Saturnalia) that worshiped Saturn. As the Catholic church rose to power, the used “syncretism” which was co-opting pagan rituals but changing the object of worship to soften the blow to converted people, so it was okay to celebrate Saturnalia, but not in worship to Saturn, but instead in worship to Christ (Christmas).

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  85. This is an interesting twist on the debate here. With regard to yoga and Christmas, etc., virtually everything we see and practice can be used for godly purposes or evil ones. Ultimately, everything, everything, everything belongs to God. So whatever the enemy has claimed, we have every right to reclaim for the Lord, whether yoga or wedding rings or Christmas trees. On the other hand, we have all met some seemingly Christian folks who follow all the rules yet they are cold and judgmental and do not at all reflect the heart of God while from all appearances, they would seem to be “doing it right.”

    Above all, God sees our hearts and motives.

    “Those who live by the Spirit are not under the law.” Galatians 5:18

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  86. I will argue that not everything can be reclaimed for God. I’m not going to have my children pass through the fire in Jesus’s name.

    “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.” (Deut 18:9-14)

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  87. Sorry, to be clear, I do have a Christmas tree. I grew up not celebrating Christmas for the reasons above, because Evangelicals seem to treat it like a divine institution. But, I realized that I can divorce the false worship aspect of Christmas from the, really cool tradition part of Christmas. But, it took a lot of discernment to be really okay with that, especially since the “Keep Christ in Christmas” crowd keep trying to put religious duty and significance back into a really cool cultural celebration.

    It was the same sort of people that drove my parents to discern they could NOT celebrate it.

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  88. Who said anything about expecting our children to pass through the fire? Both of my daughters, who have back problems, have found relief using yoga, completely separate from the earth-worship aspect. If others take issue with that, that is their problem and no one else’s. God created our bodies and gives us liberty to take care of them. How on earth can you possibly view that as compelling them – or anyone else – to “pass through the fire?” This is the kind of Christian legalism that creeps in and keeps me away from church…

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  89. Just reacting to this: “So whatever the enemy has claimed, we have every right to reclaim for the Lord, whether yoga or wedding rings or Christmas trees.”

    I have no problem with yoga, wedding rings or Christmas trees. I just don’t think everything can be reclaimed.

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  90. There are plenty of other abberations and odd or weird doctrines creeping into the professing church these days.

    Yeah, like this bizarre, enslaving practice called “gender complementarianarianism”. Or, “sanctified misogyny”, which I sometimes call it for clarity. Especially, Lori Alexander’s brand of it — dark, horrible, dangerous doctrines.

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  91. I guess everyone has their own ideas about the forces of evil — what are they, where can they be found, how do they manifest themselves, etc. Personally, I don’t see evil or demonic forces at work in things like yoga, Christmas trees, wedding rings, or even most Halloween traditions.

    I think evil usually wears a more human-looking mask. The rapist, the child abuser, the wife beater, the pimp, the slum lord, the corrupt government official, etc. — these are the faces of evil in the world as we know it. Of course there is demonic influence behind the scenes. Not that we can use demonic influence as an excuse for evil behavior in humans, as in “the devil made him do it.” But I believe that evil works in and through human beings, especially when they commit acts of violence and injustice against fellow humans.

    And I believe my view is biblical, based on the teachings of Christ and the Torah and the prophets. The Bible has a lot to say about human rights and about those who violate the rights of others. The world was judged in the days of Noah because of violence.

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  92. TWW: “The world was judged in the days of Noah because of violence.”

    I would go even further and say the world was judged because of patriarchal abuse. The powerful preyed upon the weak.

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  93. Mark: I would go even further and say the world was judged because of patriarchal abuse. The powerful preyed upon the weak.

    Fascinating. Would you mind elaborating a little more?

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  94. TWW, well, surprisingly, my authoritarian pastor preached a series on Genesis, and he highlighted the word “took”. Specifically:

    When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. (Gen 3:6)

    Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah. (Gen 4:19)

    Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. (Gen 6:2)

    What he preached was the idea that this concept of taking had a sense of wrongful authority. That is, Eve did not have the right to take and eat the fruit, but she did anyway, just like Lamech took two wives (suggesting that the wives were not necessarily thrilled with the arrangement), then the idea that the heathen rulers (i.e. sons of God was referring to their earthly preeminence rather than a spiritual position) were using their power to “take” wives for themselves, again, presumably not out of love, but out of force.

    Also, Abraham/Isaac and their wives provides some commentary as well. When they visited foreign nations with their beautiful wives, they (perhaps rightly) feared that the kings (sons of God) of those realms would kill them and “take” their wives. In fact, in all the instances, these women were indeed “taken” as wives to the kings.

    So, the overall idea was that Eve’s “taking” led to a patriarchal and abusive culture where the powerful in society put themselves in positions where they could, by force, take what they wanted as their own.

    This is also evident in Samuel’s instruction to the Israelites – that the king they wanted would “take” their best things – their best daughters to be servants in his house, and their best sons to fight his wars, their best servants, fields and produce.

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  95. Mark, this is very interesting and helpful — following the use of the word “take” through Genesis. “Taking” does indeed fit right into the mindset of the patriarchal abuser. The patriarchal abuser has a mentality of entitlement, a mentality that everything is his for the taking if he has the power to do so, and a mentality that anyone who crosses him (tries to stop him from taking) is morally wrong.

    Interestingly, the entitlement mentality is not only found in religious abusers, but in non-religious ones as well. My abusive father was and still is an atheist, yet he acts as if it is his god-given right to take from others and face no consequences. But even though he has escaped the law, he WILL face consequences, some day. Just like the wicked in Noah’s day.

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  96. Mark,

    Very interesting points. Just wanted to add one thought—near those verses about “taking” are the verses about people making “cutting instruments.” Makes you wonder if the “cutting instruments” have to do with the “taking.”

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