Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story – Part 2

Tullian Tchividjian, Personal Survivor Story, Clergy Sex Abuse


Statue of Lady Justice © Sebastian Duda, Fotolia #35822634.

Statue of Lady Justice © Sebastian Duda, Fotolia #35822634.

LINKS: My Story:  Part #1Part #2Part #3Part #4Part #5.

Editors’ note: This is Part 2, a continuation of Rachel’s story which began here. The remaining parts of the series will be posted soon.

Edited to add 11/30/16: This is Rachel’s story, and she is sharing what she recalls of her relationship with Tullian Tchividjian. She is sharing her facts, opinions, and what she believes to be true. Tullian is a public figure of interest. It is not defamatory to share opinions, beliefs, and personal stories publicly. In order to prove that she is being defamatory, it would need to be shown that she knowingly told lies, and did so with malice.  ~ja

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MY STORY, PART #2

#3. The Light Will Uncover What’s Been Done In Darkness:

June and July 2015

We were caught by the IT department of CRPC on the second week of June. Tullian received a phone call from a staff member at the church saying that the contents of his phone could be read on the church’s public server. Tullian asked the staff member to delete everything.

Tullian didn’t seem concerned, though I was terrified. I met with the Lord that day, and discovered His displeasure with my sin. It sounds ridiculous that I was so blind up to this point, but the darkness then was very thick and I was caught in the cords of my sin. On June 18th, elders came to our mutual homes to address the evidence they found of our sexual relationship. Tullian was obliged to step down and forget about his settlement deal.

After that, I soon ended our physical involvement. On one memorable occasion around that time, Scotty Smith and his wife went to counsel Kim and Tullian at their home. Evidently, Smith asked Tullian to call me to officially break it off in Kim’s hearing. I received a frantic preemptive call from Tullian to inform me I would be receiving a “break-up” call and to just “go with it.” Later that day the call came, and a few hours later Tullian was back with me acting like nothing had happened. I wasn’t going to let him treat me or his wife or his counsel like that. I started to see then how much of a manipulator Tullian truly is. There was more to come …

When Tullian’s moral failure was made public, a team was assigned to help him. His older brother, Stephan, headed this initiative. Tullian told me his brother was jealous of his success and he couldn’t trust him at all. He orchestrated his situation cleverly to replace those counselors with his friend, Paul Tripp. [It turned out that Paul Tripp played what apparently was a strategic role in Tullian’s eventual filing for divorce from Kim in August. More on that shortly.]

CRPC was reeling in the wake of discovering Tullian’s relationship with me. He should’ve been de-frocked and ex-communicated at the same time. He refused to humbly submit to the denomination’s procedure for dealing with his restoration. But because CRPC merely asked him to resign, Tullian was later able to wriggle through a back door to Willow Creek. He managed to side-step the PCA’s disciplinary procedure, but yet land a position at another PCA church. But his deeds eventually caught up with him there, too.

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From the Editors: Background on LIBERATE and Liberate Network

Consequences of sexual misconduct for Tullian Tchividjian included not just his resignation from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church and the deposing of his ministry credentials by the South Florida Presbytery. The leaders of CRPC also closed his LIBERATE ministry indefinitely, which included cancellation of the 2016 conference. According to the archived site from CRPC, “LIBERATE exists to connect God’s inexhaustible grace to an exhausted world.”

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Notice of Closure for LIBERATE

Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Liberate Network, Tullian Tchividjian, Spiritual Sounding Board, Clergy Sex Abuse

In February 2016, Tullian Tchividjian helped create Liberate Network – a resurrected version of the now-defunct LIBERATE resource ministry that he’d founded at Coral Ridge. The Liberate Network was separate from any connection with Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, and had nine members on its board of directors. (One of the directors was Pastor Kevin Labby from Willow Creek Church, who hired Mr. Tchividjian after he resigned from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.) Though Mr. Tchividjian was not on the board of directors, he was clearly influential, and this Liberate Network looked to be a relaunching of his speaking/event/publishing platform. Due to revelation of a prior unconfessed incident of clergy sexual misconduct by Tchividjian that came to light in March 2016, the new Liberate Network was dissolved less than two months after its launch.

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#4. Tullian Starts Divorce Proceedings:

August 2015

I convinced myself I could still be a friend to Tullian if not a lover. I paid for all his hotel stays when he was living apart from Kim, and even booked his flight to see Paul Tripp in Philadelphia. He asked me to organize travel plans and book things for him, but he was happy to charge up my card, never replacing it with his own. He easily wracked up a few thousand dollars in travel expenses that we never got back. [Editors’ Note: Rachel has supplied a sampling of credit card/travel invoices. One is shown later in this post.]

I truly wanted Tullian to give his marriage a fair go, though I knew in my heart he wasn’t going to. He kept me hanging on emotionally, until he got the go-ahead from Paul Tripp to end his marriage. That was in August. He called me saying he had “to stay squeaky clean” as of that night and could no longer be in touch.

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From the Editors: Background on Tullian Tchividjian’s Filing for Divorce

The remainder of this section is important background about Tullian Tchividjian’s filing for divorce. This is necessary information for interpreting where and how Rachel’s account fits in the larger picture.

Paul Tripp became Tullian Tchividjian’s counselor, for at least around the time of the divorce proceedings. Mr. Tripp did something highly out of the ordinary by posting a public notice, saying that he believed the Tchividjians’ marriage was “irreparably broken.” (Tullian Tchividjian’s Divorce, by Paul Tripp, August 26, 2015).

Statement on “Tullian Tchividjian’s Divorce,” Posted by Paul Tripp ~ August 26, 2015

Paul Tripp, Tullian Tchividjian divorce, clergy sex abuse, spiritual sounding board

Why is that statement so unusual?

First, because, as a counselor, Mr. Tripp could be accused of violating professional ethics by breaking the confidentiality of a client’s family situation. For instance, Spiritual Sounding Board posted this post about perceived conflict of interest: Is Paul Tripp Violating Counseling Code of Ethics by Releasing Statement about Tullian Tchividjian? (August 26, 2015).

Was Mr. Tripp attempting to make a case for Tullian to divorce Kim? It seems so. Is that something a counselor would normally do for the public? No. Something a friend might do? Perhaps. There seems to be a dual relationship problem here where Mr. Tripp crosses the line from professional to personal by posting such a statement.

That is all very peculiar. But second, the wording seems very particular in talking about the marriage. Mr. Tripp declares it as, unfortunately, being “irreparably broken.” As it turns out, “Under Florida law, one party must establish that the marriage is ‘irretrievably broken’ in order for the union to be dissolved.” (Emphasis added; quote from Tullian Tchividjian Files for Divorce, by Timothy C. Morgan, in The Aquila Report, August 14, 2015). Both Tullian and Kim lived in Florida at that point.

In the light of these two concerns, Mr. Tripp’s statement easily gives an appearance that it was carefully calculated in its timing, in its specifically crafted language, and in the air of credibility to the idea that reconciliation was impossible – lent by a supposed expert. Was all this designed so Tullian Tchividjian could get the freedom he’d told Rachel that he wanted – regardless of what his wife of over 20 years had or had not done to supposedly deserve the dissolution of their marriage?

Public Record, Filing of Divorce by Tullian Tchividjian ~ August 20, 2015

Tullian Tchividjian Divorce Summary, Clergy Sex Abuse, Spiritual Sounding Board

The filing deed was already done. In our opinion, Counselor Tripp’s statement contributed to public spin that seized on a narrative that reinforced Tullian Tchividjian as the victim. That framing of the story goes back to initial statements issued June, 2015, as shared in the Washington Post article, “Billy Graham’s grandson steps down from Florida megachurch after admitting an affair“ (June 21, 2015).

Billy Graham’s grandson Tullian Tchividjian has resigned from his pulpit at Coral Ridge Presbyterian, a high-profile church in South Florida, after admitting he had an affair. He released the following statement to The Washington Post:

“I resigned from my position at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church today due to ongoing marital issues. As many of you know, I returned from a trip a few months back and discovered that my wife was having an affair. Heartbroken and devastated, I informed our church leadership and requested a sabbatical to focus exclusively on my marriage and family. As her affair continued, we separated. Sadly and embarrassingly, I subsequently sought comfort in a friend and developed an inappropriate relationship myself. Last week I was approached by our church leaders and they asked me about my own affair. I admitted to it and it was decided that the best course of action would be for me to resign. Both my wife and I are heartbroken over our actions and we ask you to pray for us and our family that God would give us the grace we need to weather this heart wrenching storm. We are amazingly grateful for the team of men and women who are committed to walking this difficult path with us. Please pray for the healing of deep wounds and we kindly ask that you respect our privacy.”

Tchividjian, 42, has been married to his wife, Kim, since 1994 and they have three children. Kim Tchividjian sent the following message to The Post Monday morning:

“The statement reflected my husband’s opinions but not my own. Please respect the privacy of my family at this time, thank you. I do thank everyone for the outpouring of love for my family as well during this difficult time and we appreciate all the prayers and support we are receiving.”

Mr. Tchividjian seems to have taken command of the narrative from the outset, seeking to come across as a sympathetic character in a tragic storyline – although in the middle of all his verbiage, he admits to merely acknowledging his sexual misconduct only after being confronted about it, not confessing it on his own by choice.

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#5. Spiritual Business Starts Getting Taken Care Of:

August 2015 – March 2016

AUGUST-SEPTEMBER 2015

In August 2015, Tullian asked me numerous times to come see him at the gym. At the same time, he was recruiting fans such as “Lisa” and a “gospel posse” to be his internet watchdogs. I believe there were numerous other women with whom he was engaging on Twitter and other social media platforms. He had a “type” … usually athletic, often long blonde hair, spiritually inclined, fans of “grace,” and emotionally vulnerable enough to share their worst secrets with him.

Sometimes it was obvious, simply from looking at his Twitter feed, that he was flirting with another woman. He would often tweet song lyrics for me and other women … the masses would like those posts and think he was trying to say something to them.

He had told me about many, many women. Most had names. Some he had history with from his earlier life. He compared them, and compared me to them. He tried to provoke jealousy and had definite hierarchies. It was like we all lived in a fantasy realm together. He told me he almost left Kim for one of them while he was in seminary. That woman still texted him. I saw the texts. I saw the same women tweet at him late at night and him engage them. It was really sick stuff.

In September, as he was moving to Orlando, I talked to him on the phone. I strongly asked for him to apologize to my husband, who by then had separated from me and had abandoned his faith. I also told Tullian in that conversation that we needed the $11k private investigator money back ASAP. He got irritated with me but promised he would apologize in person to my husband and return the money. He sent my husband a lame text with some profuse “apologies” and no mention of the money.

Tullian started to assassinate my character behind my back while he was still keeping me groomed and entangled. For instance, I found out that he was telling people I’d had three affairs, making me out to be a seductress. Why would he need to do that? Also, he was also hanging out with Stacie Phillips and she had come to visit him, I believe. [He married Stacie Phillips about a year later, August 26, 2016.]

FEBRUARY-MARCH 2016

I did not contact or hear from Tullian again until February/March 2016. I was concentrating on my own family dysfunction and trying to get my life straight with God. I spent a lot of time in fasting and prayer in this season. I had few to come alongside me and a very difficult home situation, facing a difficult marriage and the reaction of my children to the chaos.

None of Tullian’s counselors ever reached out to me. Since I’d refused initially to talk with the Coral Ridge elders, no one from the church reached out either. Former friends refused to re-establish relationship when I contacted them. Some came to see if they could hear tasty trifles of gossip, but left again. God cleared out my life to deal with me Himself.

In God’s perfect timing, I reached out to a mature friend at Coral Ridge. She is the wife of a pastor and has been in attendance there for 25 years. She has proved to be one of my truest friends and a mentor through the hardest season of my life. Her husband was assigned to our family’s care. He tried to establish contact with my husband. He also orchestrated a meeting between me and an ethics committee at the church. They were a warm panel who seemed to genuinely care. My membership was deemed in good standing after I told them my story and they questioned me and analyzed my process of repentance. I no longer attend CRPC, but worship at another local PCA church.

In February/March 2016, a series of events started to unfold. It began when I felt the Lord was bringing Tullian back to my mind and that there was business I had to attend to. Shortly after that, I saw online that he was relaunching Liberate Network.

That weekend, a mutual friend introduced me to a woman who turned out to be the woman with whom Tullian had a sexual relationship in 2014. [Named as “Woman #1,” May through July, 2014 in the Partial Timeline post.] I remembered her name from his conversations. We met and exchanged stories. Though her story about what happened was remarkably different to what Tullian had claimed it to be, our backgrounds and experiences were horribly similar. So much that we “shared” … same songs Tullian sent us, same pet phrases he used for us … same intense love-bombing. Tullian had told me some things about this woman, such as her name, and some fantasy stories which were obviously not the truth. But he’d denied to me that he had ever had a physical relationship with any of the women he mentioned. But Tullian played us in the same way … we had very similar backgrounds. We knew we weren’t his first rodeo.

All of this activity with other women was before Tullian filed for divorce from Kim. And he’d given me plenty of reason to believe he was cheating on her, even from the early years of their marriage.

REPAYMENT

Tullian eventually repaid the $11k bill for our hiring the private investigator when I went on his new Liberate Facebook page, publicly exposing him. He was in a bind with no plan after Willow Creek Presbyterian Church caught him in his web of lies … and we would never have seen our money back if the timing hadn’t been so divinely orchestrated! Here’s how that happened.

APPROACHING CORAL RIDGE AND WILLOW CREEK

My husband and I had been totally stonewalled by Tullian in our previous efforts to collect the money he owed. My husband contacted CRPC  around the time Tullian resigned when they found out about our sexual relationship. They told us that we were on our own with Tullian and the debts he owed us. (I had compiled and shown them all the originals of the credit card statements for Tullian’s travels at our expense, detailing charges for his flights, hotels, food, trips to the gym while on the road, etc. Just one trip added up to $1,400. The grand total, including the private investigator costs, was well over $12k.) Their unwillingness to help us collect on the debt angered my husband.

Credit Card Statement for Tullian Tchividjian Travel on Rachel’s Credit Card ~ June 22-26, 2015

tullian tchividjian, clergy sex abuse,

We then approached Kevin Labby, the Senior Pastor at Willow Creek. [Willow Creek had hired Tullian on as “Director of Ministry” a couple weeks after he resigned from CRPC.] Kevin seemed to be under Tullian’s spell, too, at the time and must have believed Tullian’s slander of us initially. He did not respond to our calls and email then. Although, later on, Kevin reached out to us with open arms.

EMAILING PAUL TRIPP

I also emailed Paul Tripp on February 21, telling him the whole story at length of how Tullian conned him. He replied the next day basically that I should “run to the body of Christ” and not contact him again.

Rachel’s Email Exchange with Paul Tripp ~ February 21-22, 2016

SUMMARY FROM THE EDITORS:

On the morning of February 21, 2016, Rachel sent a lengthy email to Paul Tripp – it was over 1,500 words (about two and a half pages of single-space type). In it, she reminded him that she’d phoned him in May of 2015, at Tullian’s request. Then she went into detail about some of her story, what the destructive things that had happened within her own family, and some of the difficulties in trying to repent and recover when she had no church support for that process. She didn’t know where to turn, and was hesitant to contact Pastor Kevin Labby at Willow Creek Church where Tullian then worked. Since she’d spoken to Mr. Tripp almost a year before, she was reaching out again now.

But much of what she wrote attempted to make the case from what she herself had seen and heard (1) that indicated Tullian’s “repentance” was all style and no substance, (2) that he showed no evidence of truly attempting reconciliation with Kim (since he was at that time flirting with Rachel), (3) that Mr. Tripp had been taken in, in giving Tullian “clearance” for filing for divorce, and (4) that all Tullian wanted was a relaunch of his career.

Here is how she ended the email:

[…] I believe God will deal with Tullian as He sees fit. But as much as it depends on me, I hope I have been open and honest now with you at this point. I believe you were deceived […].

Thanks for reading this. I don’t expect you to reach out to me unless you feel it important. I’m messed up, but Jesus really has been all I need. Truly. He has sent a very few close mature Christian friends to be the Samaritans. I want to have a clear conscience before the Lord in all this as I heal and move on myself, that’s all. Hope you understand.

Rachel

Paul Tripp responded by email the next morning with a brief email, empathizing with and responding to some of what Rachel had written. He did suggest she continue finding solace in God’s grace and help in His people, but was not open to extending the email exchange.

COMMENTING ON LIBERATE NETWORK’S FACEBOOK PAGE

I had no voice. My husband had no voice. But Tullian’s fans were, as ever, bewitched by his propaganda. The Liberate Network that Tullian had been so involved with was relaunching [as of February 19, 2016], and I put a comment on their Facebook page. It was there for a while before they deleted it.

Rachel’s Comment on Liberate Network’s Facebook Page ~

Approximately the Week of February 20, 2016

Tullian Tchividjian, clergy sex abuse, Spiritual Sounding Board

That sure got things moving.

TULLIAN RECONNECTS

Tullian phoned me late one night, from a blocked phone number so I couldn’t call him back. His agenda was to assess my mind-set, manipulate me, and shut me up. He scolded me about my online rant, yet laced his scolding with remembrances of how “amazing” and “smart” I was, how “special” our time together had been and how great his memories of me will always be. And how he takes “full responsibility” for everything that happened and how sorry he is and how “he will never date again” he fears.

I wanted to be sick. I told him to pay back the money or I would keep exposing him. I told him I feared for his soul and that he is sick and needs to get help. I also challenged him on his wimpy “apology” text to my husband the previous September and asked him to talk to him face-to-face like a man.

He called my husband after that. I heard it didn’t go well. Other things also did not go well for him either.

WILLOW CREEK CHURCH AND PASTOR KEVIN LABBY

Id contacted Pastor Kevin Labby of Willow Creek Church before. I’d mentioned the woman Tullian had been with in 2014. I’d also posted some rant comments.

And on March 17, I sent an emotional e-mail to him, asking him to get involved with trying to get Tullian to repay us our money for the private investigator. I also apologized for my Facebook and Twitter rants, and told him they were unwise and I regretted them. I also apologized for the awkwardness they caused. He sent back an email within 45 minutes. This is his response. [Note from editors:  Pastor Kevin Labby gave permission for his email to be published in this article. It appears here in its entirety, except for items changed as noted.]

Email to Rachel From Willow Creek Church Pastor Kevin Labby ~ March 17, 2016

From: Kevin Labby [e-mail address removed]
Date: March 17, 2016 at 7:59:47 PM EDT
To: Rachel [e-mail address removed]
Subject: Re: The specifics

Hello, Rachel –

Thank you for writing. This makes me sick to read. It grieves me. I would like to review this more thoroughly and respond to you after some reflection.

I will inquire about the check (again), but would also encourage you to consider legal action if it becomes necessary.

Finally, my cell phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please give this to [your husband]. If you’d like to speak sometime tomorrow or this weekend, please give me a call.

Kevin

P.S. Thank you for your graciousness, and even your very kind acknowledgement of social media “awkwardness.” I am thankful that we are now in touch, and I’m hopeful that I may be of help to you and [your husband]. Please express to him my sorrow over this whole situation.

THE CHECK

Finally, Tullian’s repayment check for $11,130 arrived. We’d waited 10 months for him to make good on his promises.

Check from William (Tullian) Tchividjian for $11,130,

With Memo Noting it is for Payment of “Private Investigator”

Dated March 18, 2016 and Received March 21, 2016

tt-check

Part of text conversation between Rachel and Julie Anne on March 21, 2016

Tullian Tchividjian, Clergy Sex Abuse, Spiritual Sounding Board

Payee: William Tchividjian. Beneath the blocked out address reads: Memo: Private Investigator

The check was dated March 18, and arrived March 21 … just several days after Tullian’s first sexual relationship with Woman #1 (May through July 2014) was finally made public. The dominoes were falling. It took a few days for news and official statements to get out.

MAJOR CHANGES, MARCH 16-18

When Willow Creek Presbyterian Church found out about Tullian’s previous adultery and cover-up, they fired him immediately. That was March 16.

It came out that at least three other men knew about his 2014 adultery but had covered it up for 20 months. This included Tullian’s mentor and family friend, Steve Brown, and two elders from CRPC.

It affected Tullian’s Liberate Network, too. After some of their board resigned, on March 18, the rest cancelled their upcoming event and posted that they were ending the organization. [Note: The Liberate Network, which had been relaunched just weeks earlier on February 19th, had five of its nine members on the board of directors resign soon after Tullian Tchividjian was fired. Shortly after that, the remaining members of the board cancelled the 2017 Liberate conference that had been advertised, and shuttered the non-profit. Below is the official notice that still remains on their website, as of today: November 29, 2016.]

Notice from the Board of Directors, Cancellation of 2017 Conference

and Dissolution of the Organization ~ March 18, 2016

Tullian Tchividjian, Liberate Network, Spiritual Sounding Board, Clergy Sex Abuse

SOME FINAL THOUGHTS …

Some final words about Tullian’s history in ministry. When I was with Tullian, I shared about God’s restoration to him. I did not understand then that he had not truly turned from his sin. The events of the past 18 months in his life make this clear to me now. I believe the Lord has shown me that he is a wicked man. He is sick. I pray that one day he will come to an end of himself and truly allow the Lord to “Gloriously Ruin” him for real.

His season at CRPC was for six years – from an Easter Sunday to an Easter Sunday. Tullian reduced the church from a thriving 4,000-plus membership with ministries galore, to a 700-ish not-so-mega-church that was merely a platform for his self-promotion. He told me once that if he left, the place would tank, and that if he could buy the building, he would turn it into a nightclub.

His last sermon series was called “Unstoppable.” But the Lord put a big stop to it, though. By Easter Sunday of the seventh year, the remaining “dirty” elder was asked to resign from the CRPC elder board. This elder, along with another previous elder, as well as Tullian’s mentor/friend Steve Brown, had all known in 2014 about Tullian’s adultery. But they had not disclosed this to the church, putting our family right in Tullian’s destructive path. They underestimated Tullian and he lied to them about the full extent of his involvement with the woman he was sexually involved with in 2014.

God will complete the work He has started in His church and we must fear Him. I trust Him with my story and do not hold anything against anyone I’ve mentioned. But if you are a church or a ministry that seeks to involve yourselves with Tullian in the future, please seek the Lord beforehand diligently. May He deliver His bride from evil and restore His own to walking in truth.

All of that involves God taking care of some business with Tullian. But I still had much “spiritual business” to be taken care of with me …

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Continued in Parts #3 and #4:

  • Part 3. My Process of Repentance and Recovery (Spring 2015 and Onward) and My Message for Those Drawn Into clergy Sexual Misconduct: There is Help and Hope for Us!
  • Part 4. My Response to Tullian Tchividjian’s Supporters and Protectors: An Open Letter, November 2016. And My Personal Response to Tullian Tchividjian: An Open Letter, November 2016. Plus some final words from the editors of this series.

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77 comments on “Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story – Part 2

  1. Pingback: Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story – Part 1 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  2. Pingback: Tullian Tchividjian: Further Accusations and Important Resources – Sparking Conversation

  3. These people live in a different universe than I can even imagine. If ever I even hinted at even thinking like this in a faith community I would be what I call the “summary gutting” like a dead fish on Friday. That has always been my point, the professional Christians live on a different plane of existence. Personally, I am glad I live on mine, to be honest. It must get exhausting keeping up with all the drama.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Rachel, THANK YOU.

    I have read many stories from survivors of abuse, and sometimes I’m tempted to think “I know all the tactics of abusers already; why read another story from a survivor”. But each new story I read teaches me something, and yours is no exception.

    This paragraph of yours:

    “He had told me about many, many women. Most had names. Some he had history with from his earlier life. He compared them, and compared me to them. He tried to provoke jealousy and had definite hierarchies. It was like we all lived in a fantasy realm together. He told me he almost left Kim for one of them while he was in seminary. That woman still texted him. I saw the texts. I saw the same women tweet at him late at night and him engage them. It was really sick stuff.”

    …. brought back memories of my second husband. He was not as skilled or as sick as Tullian, but he did have a habit of telling me about the girlfriends he’d had in the past. … their names, what he did with them, details of their involvement together. I knew, without ever thinking about it, that if I were to recount to him something about what I’d done with my previous husband, or with any of my boyfriends (before I became a christian) he would have hated me saying that.

    He was free to reminisce about his former women, but I was not. That was how he saw it. And how he lived it.

    Your words — “It was like we all lived in a fantasy realm together” — what an apt description of what the narcissist’s mind is like.

    Once again, thank you. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

  5. Rachel, thanks for sharing your story.

    Tullian, if you’re reading this I’d like to offer you a cut price deal on a face tattoo.

    The whole of Romans 6 in BOLD type over both cheeks. So when you admire your face each morning you’ll be reminded to be a good boy.

    Know – Reckon – Yield smack bang on your forehead costs extra.

    Grace isn’t free.

    It cost JESUS his life.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. I’m only part way through, and thank you Rachel for sharing! I had some experience with a liar last year and maybe have more empathy for people who get sucked in than I did before.

    I did want to say that I find this appalling!

    Evidently, Smith asked Tullian to call me to officially break it off in Kim’s hearing.

    I can understand why Kim would not trust Tullian, but to have such a private thing so public sounds awful. I don’t think that was fair to you at all.

    Like

  7. It came out that at least three other men knew about his 2014 adultery but had covered it up for 20 months. This included Tullian’s mentor and family friend, Steve Brown, and two elders from CRPC.

    Between this and Tripp and what I recently learned about promise keepers, you have to wonder how many old boys club/keep secrets from the wife men there are hanging around in ministry? How pervasive is this belief! It’s outrageous.

    Liked by 4 people

  8. Apologies for too many posts, but aside from their initial dumb decision to hire Tullian, good on Willow Creek. At least they can learn and accept that they made a mistake. Which puts them ahead of a lot of people.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. Grooming several women at the same time and then pitting them against each other is symptoms of what Lundy Bancroft described as “the player” in Why Does He Do That?

    Bancroft writes,

    “He breaks up with women and gets back together with them so that no one can keep track of what’s going on….He knows how to make each woman feel special and yet at the same time keep her off balance….”

    “Women around the Player seem to get angry at teach other a lot, rather than at him…these tensions work out well for him, diverting attention from his infidelities….”

    “The Player’s constant flirting and cheating help him to get away with other forms of mistreatment. His partner is likely to focus on her hurt feelings about his infidelities and pour effort into stopping him from straying and in the process lose sight of his patter of abuse. When she asks me whether I think her partner will ever settle down and be faithful to her……I answer—He may someday—but what you will have then is a faithful abuser.”

    (p. 92-93)

    Liked by 6 people

  10. Senecagriggs said:

    Rachel, if I may ask, how are your husband’s emotional and psychological wounds?

    Seneca,
    We are keeping the focus on Rachel and her story. Her husband’s story is his to tell.

    Like

  11. I added this important note to the post:

    Edited to add 11/30/16: This is Rachel’s story, and she is sharing what she recalls of her relationship with Tullian Tchividjian. She is sharing her facts, opinions, and what she believes to be true. Tullian is a public figure of interest. It is not defamatory to share opinions, beliefs, and personal stories publicly. In order to prove that she is being defamatory, it would need to be shown that she knowingly told lies, and did so with malice. ~ja

    Liked by 1 person

  12. There is a message there–I’m not quite sure what–in that TT apparently mooched off this lady (perhaps others) for hotel stays while estranged from his wife. I know a guy who actually cashed in retirement accounts while wooing his paramour–and his income at the time was just plain excellent, just like I’d guess TT’s were from his day job and book royalties. We are talking serious expenses here, or perhaps we’re talking about serious abuse of others, or both.

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  13. We are talking serious expenses here, or perhaps we’re talking about serious abuse of others, or both.

    Bike Bubba, it’s probably both but I’ve been reading up on narcissists and ‘bad with money’ is apparently pretty common.

    Like

  14. Tchividjian and Tripp. Sick people. Very, very sick human beings, and despite their twisted beliefs, they CAN’T blame anyone else but themselves for their sickness.
    They are repulsive.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. In Rachel’s defense,

    Years of growing up in the church being taught that a woman’s role is submission and obedience made her vulnerable for exploitation.

    Before anyone tries to point the finger at Rachel, we have to deal with how the church as a whole has dropped the ball on teaching women to resist evil.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. No need, really, to come to Rachel’s defense. It’s clear she owns her role in this, which is in keeping with Biblical repentance. My role, then, is to pray for her recovery.

    Lea’s correct about the money thing. If it’s NPD–I’m not a psychiatrist nor do I play one on TV–Mayo reports that “financial problems” are one result. And since “talk therapy” is the main method of cure, that sounds a lot like “TT needs to repent of his un-Biblical world view”.

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568

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  17. we have to deal with how the church as a whole has dropped the ball on teaching women to resist evil.

    I think the church as a whole needs to be taught to resist evil. (And to stop worshiping the ones chosen to stand up in front of the audience and preach.) The problem is the teaching that women are the evil that must be resisted!

    The comp heavy wing of church (which it seems like PCA is to an extent) wants things both ways. They want to teach that women are both weak willed and need a man telling them what to do, AND that they are all jezebels who tempt men. They apparently do not see the flaws in this teaching and seem utterly incapable of realizing that men are often doing the tempting. And then when things go bad, they want to yet again blame the men. Awfully convenient system they’ve set up for predatory and evil men.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Just. Can’t. Even.

    My daughter had a guy try and get to her in high school. Reading this made me remember him. My husband had to talk to him privately several times and eventually he had to tell him to leave her alone and not contact her any more or he would get anyone else involved that he had to to protect his daughter. Finally the flirtation and suggestive comments stopped.

    This guy claimed to be a Christian and yet we quickly saw that this was how he was operating.

    Sad thing is his parents seemed not to understand what was going on, nor did some other Christian parents who mentioned they would not mind if their daughter got together with such a “nice Christian boy.” Ugh.

    Why do people not get it??

    Liked by 1 person

  19. The narcissism lectures by Diane Langberg, PhD are highly instructive as to why ppl like this rise to high positions and people get swept up in their sick system. It also instructs counselors and others in how to counsel a narcissist and resist getting sucked in.

    Part 1
    http://globaltraumarecovery.org/narcissism-and-the-system-it-breeds-part-15/

    Part 2
    http://globaltraumarecovery.org/narcissism-and-the-system-it-breeds-part-25/

    Part 3
    http://globaltraumarecovery.org/narcissism-and-the-system-it-breeds-part-35/

    Part 4
    http://globaltraumarecovery.org/narcissism-and-the-system-it-breeds-part-45/

    Part 5

    Part 5
    http://globaltraumarecovery.org/narcissism-and-the-system-it-breeds-part-55/

    Incidentally this lecture series was included in the long publication about Mark Driscoll’s abusive narcissistic behavior, as information for further research, when all that blew up a few years back. It was extremely informative and helpful.

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  21. “Seneca,
    We are keeping the focus on Rachel and her story. Her husband’s story is his to tell.”

    Dear Julie, I would think her marriage and her husband are a MAJOR part of her story.

    Like

  22. Seneca, Rachel’s husband’s state of heartland/or mind are none of you business, unless the man himself makes them so.

    And drop the disingenuous, wide-eyed “innocent questions” bit. Quite of few of us out here remember well the pot-stirring and victim-blaming you used to do at The Wartburg Watch before moving over here.

    Liked by 1 person

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  24. Seneca – It’s as if your default position is to be the biggest jerk possible. Just your gig, I guess. It’s quite obvious, Seneca, if you read her story all the way through, that she freely acknowledges being in sin, ugly flat out sin. This is clear (provided you took time to actually read what she had to say). But if there’s one thing that’s consistent with you, it’s being the biggest and least godly as possible at all times, in all ways.

    Buddy, you’re a jerk.

    Like

  25. Thing is, it’s not like “Rachel” has anything really to gain by doing this, baring her sins (as well as those of Tullian), not like she’s some kind of self-proclaimed spiritual leader with a pulpit and a lucrative book contract who collects honoraria speaking at conferences and makes her living off the gullible public, it’s not like she’s making these obviously fake sort of apologies, crying alligator tears like Mark Driscoll or Tullian. She’s bearing her soul and making herself look legitimately bad and blinded, and in the process exposing the hypocrisy of a so-called public figure for Christ. At the end of the day, she’s doing a service here.

    But you just can’t resist, that thing inside you, what we’ve noticed for years now, just can’t let it go, you have to make the sadistic little comment that you know she’s probably reading and will cut her like a knife. And you just DO NOT CARE.

    Again, I say it, you’re a jerk, a full blooded punk, Seneca. You add nothing of value to the conversation. You’re the one who needs to repent and ask yourself why you just can’t resist doing this garbage.

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  26. Pingback: Tullian Tchividjian’s Affair With Married Woman Was Allegedly Exposed on Church Server | Pacific Piano Performance Posts

  27. Pingback: » Women Accuse Billy Graham’s Grandson Tullian Tchividjian of Narcissistic Spiritual Abuse Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion

  28. I very much think like a LOT of men – processing and questioning when presented with human scenarios. So I hear Rachael’s story and think more in analytical terms then in initially emotional terms. Like I said, I’m a guy.

    On a different note: Is Tullian a “player?” I absolutely think so.

    Should he be in formal ministry? Don’t think so.

    “They say,” players can spot other players. There may be SOME TRUTH to that, but your mileage may vary. Predators can “feel it” instinctively so it would seem.

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  29. She’s bearing her soul and making herself look legitimately bad and blinded

    Absolutely. And she has freely acknowledged the damage this did, instead of trying to sweep it away and pretend it didn’t happen like so many so called ministers do. I respect that.

    Like

  30. “They say,” players can spot other players.

    They say liars are always expecting others to lie, thieves expecting to be stolen from, etc. That is not really a compliment to them. Good people sometimes get taken advantage of precisely because they are good and they’re not expecting evil.

    Like

  31. senecagriggs said,

    I very much think like a LOT of men – processing and questioning when presented with human scenarios. So I hear Rachael’s story and think more in analytical terms then in initially emotional terms. Like I said, I’m a guy.

    You do realize that it’s a sexist stereotype to view women as being emotional and men as being logical, yes?

    (You seem to be implying that any or all women in this thread who are replying to you are reacting purely out of emotional rather than “logic,” which you also apparently believe automatically disqualifies their points – which is sloppy thinking on your part, other than being sexist.)

    If you’re seeing people being emotional in response to you, it’s you personally that is setting them off, not necessarily Rachel’s story. You have a long history of being a trouble maker and victim-blamer at other sites, including Eagle’s blog.

    I ran into you once over there (Eagle’s blog) a few months ago. You are usually very reluctant to believe or defend victims, but you want to give the benefit of the doubt to pastors / perps.

    By the way, Jesus Christ displayed anger, hurt, and other emotions when he saw how people were hurting or being scammed or exploited by each other, or by the religious ruling classes of his day (such as the Pharisees). I would suspect you would not charge Jesus with being illogical just because the man sometimes cried or showed anger (emotion) over injustice.

    A person can be both logical and emotional – a person can have views grounded in logic and rationality but also, at the same time, have an emotional take on whatever said topic is. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Like

  32. Lea said,

    <

    blockquote>They say liars are always expecting others to lie, thieves expecting to be stolen from, etc. That is not really a compliment to them. Good people sometimes get taken advantage of precisely because they are good and they’re not expecting evil.

    <

    blockquote> As I said at the other blog more than once, a book I read on verbal abuse touched on this.
    I had spent years wondering why my verbally abusive big sister viewed me as an adversary and so forth, even though I was always polite, caring, and docile towards her – I never gave her any reason to go off on me or to treat me with suspicion.

    According to the counselor who wrote the book on verbal abuse, the reason abusers act in this manner is because verbally abusive people view relationships in a “one up” or “one over” power and control dynamic….
    Where-as ‘regular’ people (you and me) view relationships through a lens of mutuality.
    I’m not trying to control you, nor do I want to control you, neither do you want to control me (I assume – I’ve not seen that in you in your posts).

    Verbal and emotional abusers, however, assume that every one else views relationships just like they do, as a power play or as a game of control.

    So, the abuser will try to get you, stomp on you, and control you, because they ASSUME that you are out to do those very things to them (even though you have no intention of doing so).

    There does appear to be some projection that goes on by controllers, abusers, and manipulators. They project their qualities and behaviors on to every one else.

    Like

  33. Daisy, I have to consciously think sometimes that everyone doesn’t think like me. I may be private out of one motive, for example, and without thinking assume another person has the same motive, when that’s dead wrong.

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  34. Pingback: Resource Bibliography on System Issues Related to the Tullian Tchividjian Situation | Spiritual Sounding Board

  35. Re: victimizers and predators, there but for the grace of God go I. Are they in need of grace? Very much so. Am I in need of grace? Very much so.

    I also have quite a heart for victims – of all kinds. I had some dealing with a self-described “crack whore” a few years ago. I hoped I could save her but I couldn’t. I think she was about 15 when she first sold herself in exchange for drugs. I felt so helpless, nothing I tried was able to keep her off the streets. Then I lost track of her. There are SO MANY tragedies out there. It’s actually overwhelming.

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  36. Finally if the narrative of these posts is: Tullian has disqualified himself by his serial adultery from the pastoral ministry. I would agree – 100%.

    If he’s truly God’s child, maybe someday he has a ministry to men – but never women. He is not to be trusted with them.

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  37. “I very much think like a LOT of men – processing and questioning when presented with human scenarios. So I hear Rachael’s story and think more in analytical terms then in initially emotional terms. Like I said, I’m a guy.”

    Lol! (Being amused is emotional or analytical depending on gender)

    So would you say Tullian was living this human scenario was it analytically or emotionally?

    Like

  38. “Re: victimizers and predators, there but for the grace of God go I.”

    So Tullian’s predation and deception is because God withheld His grace from him?

    Like

  39. Pingback: Survivor of Tullian Tchividjian’s Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story – Part 4 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  40. Pingback: Breaking News: Former Church Says Tullian Tchividjian Should Not Be in Ministry – via Warren Throckmorton | Spiritual Sounding Board

  41. Pingback: Pastor Kevin Labby speaks against Tullian Tchividjian – Sparking Conversation

  42. Julie Anne, Brad and Rachel: Thank you for all your hard work and perseverance and laying the time-line for all this to be known and the transparency and wanting accountability=truth. May others come forward and break their silence and shame. Rachel: Restoration, God’s Love, Grace, Mercy are absolutely amazing. Appreciated Richard Rossi naming his church “Eternal Grace”; “Wounded and Betrayed Believers are Useful to God” message by Graham Cooke=profound. Wished could remember where Art Katz (Arthur) writes a list of sins in the light of God’s Glory and Grace it was amazing. Rachel: No one can throw stones (they can try); Thank you for coming forward. Pray your entire family can find people who truly live the Gospel especially Church Leadership=Men who represent the Father Heart of God if nothing else for healing that’s so needed in the Body of Christ. Really appreciate all of you!

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  43. Really SCARY item is the cover-up and NO accountability for what was revealed in 2014 and IF these Men truly had fear of the Lord and did the right thing/item and did the Biblical Standard of Matthew 18:15-17 (“Biblical Church Discipline” by Daniel Wray), that Rachel and her family wouldn’t have had to go through and been part of “the train wreck” by TT as the wrecking ball; so sad NOT to have Men who have set the standard of Holiness, Righteousness, Repentance, Prayer rather than preying on people. Leonard Ravenhill wrote the condition of the Church/Pastors/Leadership really well in 1959 in “Why Revival Tarries” and Sequel “America is Too Young to Die”-1979! Think of Ezekiel 2: message what’s required and how God views it (his Word=Bible says it)! Wonder what sin these 3 men were hiding to compromise in not being obedient to the Bible (Acts 5:29)? REALLY SAD ITEM; there is SO MANY MEN/WOMEN IN PULPITS THAT ARE SO UNHEALED AND SO NARCISSISM (“kingdom of self/god players” by Earl Jabay) that they don’t care who or what and how many people they destroy along the way and how far reaching (unfortunately grew up under a very evil Pastor like and still doesn’t see or feel the need to repent; covered well in John Paul Jackson’s “Jezebel Spirit” teaching tape/cd)! Can you imagine if OUR Leader’s truly repented and apologized and we saw true fruit in that? Repentance is too change!

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  44. Daisy, the reason there’s that stereotype is because is true on average for the general population, but there is of course exceptions.

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  45. Daisy, the reason there’s that stereotype is because is true on average for the general population, but there is of course exceptions.

    According to whom? It’s a stereotype because men think women are emotional and discount their logic. Men are emotional too. They just don’t like to admit it.

    Liked by 1 person

  46. part of the problem with why narcissicists are allowed in the power in the Church, is that many people don’t see the abuse of power going on, or refuse to acknowledge it for various reasons, including out of the good of their heart… and as Rachel noted about CRPC, there is a lot of spiritual immaturity… and it’s not limited to that congregation… this is something that needs to be understood better… why do Christians in the US seem to stay fairly immature, therefore allowing various types of abuse of power in the Church to continue?

    one part of this that is really bothering me is Paul Tripp’s role… has there been any followup or anything more on him? I just have huge red flags on his part in this and his connection with TT… if anyone can direct me to additional information on him over the last year or 2, I am interested in that, because it seems he has significant influence with a lot of leaders in the Church that seem to abuse power and this makes me wonder about him… and how much he is hiding and covering up behind secular conventional confidentiality … maybe I’m wrong… but for me, this raises serious concerns in that direction… I have absolutely no access to him and know very little about him… am I the only one who is concerned here about him?

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  47. Not wanting to take the thread too far off topic, but regarding Paul Tripp, I’ve always wondered why he left CCEF. Did he decide he wanted to be a one man band? Did they invite him to leave? Or what?

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  49. Not to take away from Rachel, but there are SO many stories like this in the church, and most, the perp skates and goes right back in. What hope is there for the rest of us if a national figure, with all of this information abounding, can’t be curtailed and stopped? At least for Rachel, a year and a half to this present exposure is SOMEthing. Again, most of us see NO justice, restitution, etc.. I wish I had had a national stage to deal with the lying, cheating, deceitful N in my life (He was in church leadership 10 years). Six years later, I’m disillusioned with the church and God, with no evidence of God working his “justice”. I absolutely understand Rachel’s desperate and angry social media rants, and the desire for a voice. Most of us don’t get that (or are AFRAID to do that–my case), especially if you are in a legal contract with someone who then goes after you litigiously. Not only are you traumatized by the revelation of the fraud and the mask finally coming off, you are THEN supposed to manage the traitor’s next stage of abuse. With the mask now off, they come with no-holds barred (Perhaps this is why we never heard from Kim T). It is a personal hell, and it nearly did me in. It is not understandable unless you have lived it, and had first-hand experience with a pathology such as these people. It comes across as a made-for-tv movie, I know. I told God time and again, “I had no training to deal with this; I have no muscle for this…” Come on, church. Stop with the “but we’re ALL sinners!” It took me a long time to get that not everyone is redeemable. They’re just not, so stop extrapolating that from the Bible. TT, given his over-the-top track record of abuse, adultery, deception, manipulation, lying, etc. should be be given a life-sentence barring him from any and all church involvement again. Give him only a back-row seat if he asks for it, but nothing else.

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  50. Can we please agree that the title “counselor” should be reserved for those doing the legitimate work of earning a license conferred by the state, requiring malpractice insurance, ongoing education in dual/exploitative/abusive relationships, with true third party oversight, and with high and objective professional standards, the breeching of which may result in public disclosure, loss of license and livelihood, financial penalty, and loss of reputation as your (legitimate) peers are advised of your status via your board’s impartial publications. Paul Tripp, stop posting ridiculous photos of yourself.

    What legitimate counseling does not look like: http://www.moscowid.net/2016/11/03/video-who-to-trust/#more-16673 (Interspersed with Natalie Greenfield’s account of childhood sexual abuse are Biblical Counselor Mike Lawyer’s take on her account).
    And if these are his credentials, then you have fair notice to steer clear of anything calling itself “Biblical Counseling” (http://www.cbcmoscow.com/about-cbc/meet-the-staff/).

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  51. Is it possible for a person to be both narcissistic and psychopathic/sociopathic? I understand that one of the marks of a narcissist is that they have little if any capacity for empathetic identification. Yet Rachel describes somebody who read her well enough to manipulate her. I understand that one of the marks of a psychopath/sociopath is that they have no conscience. In my inexpert opinion, one could conclude that Rachel was the victim, and is now a survivor, of a conscienceless perpetrator who was driven by both narcissistic and psychopathic/sociopathic characterological pathologies.

    TT’s behavior has been sufficiently exposed so that those who are not prone to the adoration of “important” men can protect themselves by having nothing to do with him. The more urgent question is, how can we identify and avoid those who have not been publicly exposed. It seems we will get no help from the psychiatric profession. A psychiatrist I know tells me it is considered unethical to psychoanalyze anyone who is not under their direct care.

    Unfortunately, one of the most surefire ways of avoiding these narcissistic, psychopathic/sociopathic abusers is to avoid organized Christianity. These people are drawn to the pulpit like flies to excrement.

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  52. Is it possible for a person to be both narcissistic and psychopathic/sociopathic?

    Yes, I believe so. I was reading something the other day that said people in church communities make more effort to fake being nicey nice because it works in that crowd, which makes sense when you start to realize it’s all basically a con.

    A psychiatrist I know tells me it is considered unethical to psychoanalyze anyone who is not under their direct care.

    I actually wish people would stop constantly doing this with public figures they don’t even know because it tends to be very political (this guy we don’t like is XYZ). But some of these terms have entered the language in non-clinical, or pseudo clinical ways. Of course, narcissist is a classical reference to began with so I think that one is fair game.

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  53. Gary,

    That’s a great question.

    There’s a really great book with a lot of info on how to identity the wolves that infiltrate the flock. Lundy Bancroft’s Why Does He Do That? goes into specifics on how to recognize the red flags. If you have the time, its a great read.

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  54. @ Barnabas said,
    “Daisy, the reason there’s that stereotype is because is true on average for the general population, but there is of course exceptions.”

    To what is this referring? The stereotype that men are logical, women emotional? Not, it’s not true.

    A lot of things men assume to be true of women are not based on reality but on stereotypes and social conditioning.

    Women are raised from girlhood to act certain ways that are deemed socially acceptable for women, such as showing emotion, where-as American boys are conditioned by parents to think showing emotion is “sissy” so they are taught not to show emotion, except for anger.

    It is considered acceptable in U.S. culture for men to show anger (but not women).

    Women are permitted to act sad and cry in front of others, where-as men are taught this is shameful for them to do.

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  55. Gary, someone can have traits of narcissism without having enough traits to merit being diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

    I recommend the book Character Disorder by Dr George Simon Jr. He is a clinical psychologist. His website is manipulative-people.com
    Dr George Simon uses the term ‘character disorder’ rather than personality disorder. I find his language helpful, not least because he looks at this stuff through a lens of morality and ethics — which is something that standard psychiatric discourse tends not to do.

    And I agree with what was said up-thread:
    “A psychiatrist I know tells me it is considered unethical to psychoanalyze anyone who is not under their direct care. I actually wish people would stop constantly doing this with public figures they don’t even know because it tends to be very political (this guy we don’t like is XYZ). But some of these terms have entered the language in non-clinical, or pseudo clinical ways.”

    I wince at the way so many people toss around terms like narcissist so freely, without making any distinction between narcissistic traits and properly diagnosis of NPD. And people who do this (influenced by the pop-psychology website and books) also tend to not recognise that there are some folks who have narcissistic traits but are fairly benign (they don’t intentionally harm others), whereas other folks who have narcissistic traits are malignantly narcissistic.

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  56. Barbara, whether from reading his book, “In Sheep’s Clothing,” or from your discussion of Dr. Simon’s work, I do not recall, but his concept of character disorder has crept into my own vocabulary. You may have noticed that I used the term characterological pathologies.

    I appreciate your caution that not everybody with narcissistic tenancies has narcissistic personality disorder. Yet, whether for better or for worse, the language of psychology has entered popular, non-professional discourse. Personally, I find it difficult to avail myself of the insights of psychology without using the language of psychology, however inexpertly.

    I also appreciate the concerns that have been expressed as to whether we ought to be psychoanalyzing public figures. Whatever the best approach might be in the arena of politics, I am firmly convinced that any person who is going to be entrusted with the responsibilities customarily assumed by the modern day pastor should be required to undergo a thoroughgoing psychological assessment, with the results being made known to those with a need to know. Probably they should be required to submit to ongoing psychological assessment throughout their careers, with appropriate input from those affected by their conduct. Only problem is, an accomplished manipulator may well fool even the professionals.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. Yet, whether for better or for worse, the language of psychology has entered popular, non-professional discourse.

    Narcissist as a term was borrowed from non-professional discourse and applied to psychology. The story of narcissus is ancient mythology.

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  58. There are also a lot of laymen books, articles, lectures, podcasts out there using psychological terminology for the average person.

    As for me, there were some I could not explain or understand until I did a ton of research. The other problem is it is rare to get an evaluation and even then some types are master cons who would do very well. Most of the character disturbances are strategic in manipulation and deception. Deception is the fuel that sucks so many into their vortex.

    The DSM doesn’t help because they keep changing classifications. Therefore, I don’t get too upset with the way people use this terminology. They need language to explain what they have experienced. I do recommend care from a legal standpoint.

    There seems to be a big rise in character problems that are abusive in different ways. I can tell a difference since my early business days. It might come from the fact we are a more entitlement society than ever before. I don’t know. Being honest, trustworthy and having integrity has been either redefined or is not considered a good norm.

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  59. It might come from the fact we are a more entitlement society than ever before.

    I think basic manners and standards in society have diminished overall and that’s not been a good thing. I’m not saying we should be a shame based society but people need to have some standards for others and themselves.

    Liked by 1 person

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  63. Daisy, spot on on your “men are logical, women are emotional” call-out. There was great research done on floor traders (like Wall Street-types) (pick up a copy of The Hour Between Dog And Wolf) on hormone driven emotion and action – turns out men deal with far larger hormonal swings than women based on life events, and these hormonal swings can drive their emotions and actions into dangerous territory. Of course, that would only surprise anyone who has bought the culture’s line on “emotionalism”. Women are only “more emotional” if you define emotion as “tears”, not “anger”, “aggressiveness”, “pouting”, “sexual aggression”, “risk taking”.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. Gary W thanks for your comment.
    After I wrote my cautionary comment on this thread about using the word ‘narcissist’ I realised that I’d better just get used to and ACCEPT the fact that, whether for better or for worse, the language of psychology has entered popular, non-professional discourse and people are using the word ‘narcissist’ in ways that I may not like.

    It’s kind of like having to get used to the rogue apostrophes and the absence of apostrophes where they ought to be. Folks like me hate that — it feels like a fingernail down the blackboard! But we will just have to accept it as it becomes more and more prevalent. Sigh.

    And it reminds me of the older woman who kindly helped edit my book when it was in manuscript form. She tried to get me to remove all my split infinitives. Split infinitives don’t grate on me because I grew up with them, whereas she was of the generation which felt them as fingernail down the blackboard.

    So I tried to remove the split infinitives where I could, to not offend readers like her. But I have to admit I still chose to leave some split infinitives in. I thought in certain sentences I could get my point across more effectively if I used a split infinitive.

    I always like interacting with you Gary W 🙂

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