Review of Children’s Book “God’s Design” – Married/Single; Husband/ Father; Wife/Mother

Complementarian, Gender Roles, Being Married, Being Single, Desiring God’s Influence

married-couple

-by Kathi

This series is a review of God’s Design, a children’s book which teaches children about complementarity. For an introduction of the book, click here. All of the underlined subtitles below are chapters from the book.

Today, children, we will talk about marriage and singleness, husbands and fathers, and wives and mothers. 

Marriage and Singleness

This chapter talks about how being married and being single are both good gifts; although, there is greater focus on being married than being single — go figure.

The authors start by letting us know that it doesn’t matter if you’re married or single:

Being married and being single (not married) are gifts too. Both are good gifts from God. One isn’t better than the other. They are just different from each other.

Does this sound familiar to you? It’s the same rhetoric as talking about men and women – one isn’t better than the other, they are just different.

The chapter continues with the thought that marriage must follow God’s design: marriage is between a man and a woman, God joins the marriage together, Christians should only marry Christians, and marriage is made to last until death. I wonder if it is permissible to marry after the death of a spouse. Do they believe that couples remain married for eternity?

Divorce is not a part of God’s design because “God hates divorce.” Here’s why:

He hates it because He joined the man and woman together, and He knows that separating brings much sorrow and pain. Marriage is meant to be an example of God’s faithfulness to His people. So divorce in marriage is not showing God’s good example to others.

This is my main concern about this chapter. The authors leave no room for cases of infidelity (which Jesus does address) or abuse, and they do not believe that separation is permissible. As to the argument that divorce brings sorrow and pain, well, a lot of marriages bring sorrow and pain, too. If a person is in an abusive marriage, that marriage does not reflect God’s faithfulness.

As far as being single goes, the benefits of being single are: more freedom, more time to serve God and help others, and a greater dependence upon God, which brings a closer relationship to God. Interesting…so you can either be in a relationship which mirrors God’s relationship to the church, or you can be single and be closer to God.

Tell me what you think about this activity:

If we don’t look at things the way God does, we might think it is better to be married than single. Sometimes people do not serve or honor single people. As a family, do something this week to bless a single person.

Husbands and Fathers & Wives and Mothers

I want to keep these chapters brief, so I have combined the two together. Honestly, there’s not much new here because everything in these two chapters has been covered through the entire book so far. After discussing these two chapters, I would like to go back and address how the church deals with single and married people.

Basically, the chapters discuss roles like this:

God gives his commands for his design for husbands and wives and families. If we don’t follow his commands, that is unwise. God’s command is clear, so if we don’t follow it, we are being disobedient. That disobedience reflects a sinful heart.

The husband is the head/leader of the wife. As a father, he “provides for, protects, and leads his children.” Fathers must correct their children, love their family with kindness and sacrifice (i.e., give up his plans) when needed. I doubt that the authors consider that women may sacrifice their plans when they stay home with children.

The wife must submit to her husband and trust that “he will care for her and make good decisions.” If he is disobedient to God, she must continue to follow and respect him. Women’s important work is “having children and caring for them.” Women have the choice to make a happy home and “take care of the needs of their families,” or be grumpy about their role and make the family unhappy. I love this ending kicker — a single woman can make her home welcoming and hospitable, too. I guess single guys are free from opening their homes to company.

On Being Single or Married in the Church

“God’s Design” is a book about gender roles which tends to focus on husbands and wives and fathers and mothers. So why even mention singles? One doesn’t need to be in the church long to recognize that it views marriage and families highly.  Desiring God’s website also sends this message loud and clear. Oh, they’ll tell you being single is good, but just you wait single person…married life offers so much more!

I came across an article on Desiring God’s site and came upon some interesting comments on their Facebook page:

screenshot-2017-02-09-at-9-25-09-pm

Clearly there are people who do not like how the church gives so much attention to marriage. I know that we have had discussions of that on the blog before. Many times people feel uncomfortable or excluded because of the extreme focus the church places on marriage. How can/should the church respond better?

Categorizing people can be fine to a certain extent. But in the end, whether we are married or single, we all deal with similar struggles when it comes to relationships, jobs, or personal problems. Is it reasonable to ask the church to view people as people instead of solely in categories?

****

If you would like to read prior reviews on God’s Design, here are links in the order of the book chapters:

Know Thyself, Creature

Headship, Helper, and an Answer We Already Knew

Rebellion, a.k.a. It’s All Her Fault!

Teachings on Homosexuality as a Distortion of God’s Design

Examples of Complementarian Manhood and More Doublespeak

Examples of Godly Womanhood

Purity and Honoring God’s Design

114 comments on “Review of Children’s Book “God’s Design” – Married/Single; Husband/ Father; Wife/Mother

  1. I find it’s interesting that the Elder (man in complementarian circles) must be hospitable, yet the church, over and over pushes this hospitability to the wife of the elder.

    And, yes, I was 28 years old when I got married. The church had no idea what to do with me. They pay lip service to singleness being a gift, but there is a huge theological hole. Most people believe that there is a minimum level of sanctification required before God will let people get married, and if you’re not married, there is some hidden sin God is working on in your life. So, one reaction to that is complete avoidance – leprosy. The other is people who think they have the right to know intimate details about your life so that they can be the one who diagnoses your sin and gets you marriage-approved.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. I’m blessed to be in a church where single adults are called on to serve (not too much by the way) and encouraged to develop their gifts. Being almost 60, I don’t see marriage on the horizon (and I haven’t waited around for it, either), but I am involved in significant ministry and have been asked to participate in activities that people know I have the time and giftedness to do. So many people end up being single when they are older (either through death or divorce), and it’s important to give them meaningful participation and recognition in the church as WHOLE people.

    Liked by 4 people

  3. Mark,

    Why does ‘the elder’ need to be hospitable?

    Could it be because there were no first century salaried religious professionals and ‘the elder’ (ie: wise old godly Grandpa) needed a VENUE to disciple ‘the younger’?

    🏌🏿

    Liked by 1 person

  4. As a married with lots of kids I’m humoured by the comments about Singles being ignored.

    No doubt there are singles being left out or overlooked.

    I wake up at 5:30 every morning and am tired 24/7. The last thing on my mind on the weekend is being hospitable to anyone. When you’re tired you can’t even function.

    Reminds me of people who have no friends and complain about it.

    If you need or want friends then show yourself friendly to others who are lonely.

    Drives me batty.

    Perhaps singles could entertain marrieds with five kids. Cook us a meal and babysit our tribes… then you can understand why you might not get weekly invites HAHAHAHA

    Seriously though… is church culture all about me?

    Like

  5. In reply to Salty,

    In the 40+ years I have been a believer I have left two churches where there was nothing for never-married singles. One sent me to a singles Bible study that was more like a divorce-recovery group and the other had a women’s ministry where the leadership constantly pressured me about not making the weekly 10 am meetings. I was working; obviously, but they never got it. Yes, you so need to be friendly, but there also needs to be a reciprocation on the part of the church. I expect to use my teaching background (MA in Christian ed and a teacher credential plus years of missionary work) for the glory of the Lord and the advancement of His kingdom, not just pew sit.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. As a family, do something this week to bless a single person.

    One nice thing in a sea of errors. Good job, authors!

    I love this ending kicker — a single woman can make her home welcoming and hospitable, too. I guess single guys are free from opening their homes to company.

    Because they aren’t responsible for their house! Only women do house stuff, lol.

    I take it they wouldn’t want to hear about single women making their homes hospitable to boyfriends 🙂

    Like

  7. Most people believe that there is a minimum level of sanctification required before God will let people get married, and if you’re not married, there is some hidden sin God is working on in your life.

    This is ridiculous.

    Like

  8. Wow, Salty. I think your whole comment is full of attitude that single people (and lonely people) get.

    Meanwhile, you demonstrated exactly WHY sometimes people are lonely. Who do you go out with on Saturday night, if all your friends are married and have five kids? Not to say you can’t do things with them sometimes, but as you mentioned they are busy and tired.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Well, he may have the right idea here. Though, how to explain that to children, it’s hard to say. Since being widowed, I hate being referred to as single. But before my marriage I was okay with it. Different thoughts for different people I guess.
    I grew up seeing singleness. I have aunts who never married. We were never taught anything but what it is; they were still to be called Auntie A and Auntie B same as Uncle B and Auntie A, or whatever their names are. There were single people in church; some were my Sunday school teachers or Pioneer Girls leaders. Sometimes they later got married and we’d see the process of that; now she’s Mrs-something instead of Miss-something. Once we even got to have a bridal shower as a class.
    Historically, I think there were both extremes. Centuries ago in Europe, wasn’t there more spiritual respect given to nuns and monks? And, what Mark said, where singleness is seen as less-than or spiritual immaturity, or you’re not a full adult until marriage.
    Keep on learning. And, those with children, how do we talk to them about singleness? Like, if they ask “why doesn’t _____have a husband/wife/children?” and so on? My parents did struggle with, wanting to minister to single moms of kids our age, but yet, not encourage us to make the choices they did, like premarital sex, divorce, etc.

    Like

  10. Check out 2 Cor. 7. Singleness is a gift and can be used for God’s glory. It can be hard, but my married friends tell me that is also tough at times. We need to learn to accept where we are and trust God to use us there.

    Like

  11. Lea, before I was married with kids I was single for much of my twenties and involved in ‘churches’. So I know what’s up. I not once felt ‘let down’ or not provided because I don’t believe the world revolves around me. Harsh? True.

    Singles aren’t some unique club which need to be banded together like a bunch of degenerates. Is that really what singles want?

    Singles meetings and dinners imply something unique and distinctive. I don’t think it’s healthy and normal to lump all ‘singles’ in programmed outings or meetings. The body has many members and my point is that many people simply have little time to entertain others outside that Sunday window.

    If you are a single and think the ‘church’ has not met your needs I would ask when you last opened up your home to others and cooked a meal for others whether single or not?

    Last time you offered to babysit married people’s kids so THEY could have a night off?

    Attitude?

    Naturally.

    I haven’t had a night off for five years.

    Wouldn’t mind some bored singles serving me by babysitting my kids 😊

    Like

  12. because I don’t believe the world revolves around me. Harsh? True.

    Yes, harsh. Who said that? You are the one who went on the attack against people who are lonely! Your entire comment was callous. Your new comment is callous. I’m not even talking about church and I would rather not be split into a singles group, i’m talking about attitudes towards people.

    Is that all single people are good for, babysitting kids? I take children I am close to on outings. I don’t consider that babysitting.

    Like

  13. Your new comment is callous…

    Is that all single people are good for, babysitting kids?

    Hear, hear!

    And what about those who aren’t good with kids, or who don’t like them?

    What about a culture like Japan, in which most parents aren’t comfortable leaving their kids in the care of people who aren’t family?

    Like

  14. Salty,

    Singles aren’t some unique club which need to be banded together like a bunch of degenerates. Is that really what singles want?

    Not exclusively, no. But it is nice to be able to talk with fellow Christians who have similar experiences and struggles. We can relate to each other in many ways. It helps us get through life.

    I haven’t had a night off for five years.

    Wouldn’t mind some bored singles serving me by babysitting my kids.

    Salty, what makes you think that “lonely” is the same as “bored”? Are you under the impression that single people have all this extra time on their hands, which married folk can only dream of? That might have been your experience before you married, but please don’t make that assumption about everyone. Assumptions like that are not helpful, or conducive to compassion.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. This garbage book of indoctrination and other evils is still out there? Most shocking.

    Single? Doomed.
    Married? Doomed.
    Divorced? Cast out into eternal darkness.
    Remarried? You, demon, you!

    Okay, maybe I’m slightly cynical, but that this book is still being fed to young minds is a crime somewhere in this world. Find that place.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Bethlehem Baptist church (John Piper’s church before he retired) is such an abusive church that they excommunicate godly Christian wives who are in abusive marriages and finally leave.

    Natalie K., the Visionary Womanhood blog, is one such woman.

    I wouldn’t listen to anything that church has to say.

    Like

  17. Velour, I don’t even consider BB a church, just like your former Grace church. They have nothing to offer true Christianity. Nofeenk. Any place that teaches those things and acts towards women and children and victims the way they do and have done are not churches; they are men’s clubs. Ugghh.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. I bring up the issues of singles because I really don’t think it belongs in this book. Unless the authors want to go so far as to imply that single women should defer to their fathers or other older men in terms of headship (hey, it happens!). I wouldn’t be surprised if the thought floats around as they want sister to practice submitting to brothers.

    I have been to all kinds of churches, from house church to megachurch to in between. I have noticed that the smaller churches I attended did not seem to focus so much on marrieds and singles. One of the smaller churches we went to had a very large number of singles and we had a lot of people over at our house for small group. There really wasn’t that much distinction between married and singles because we were small enough that everyone did their part (except in volunteering to work with the kids — that always seems to have hard time getting volunteers whether your small or mega). Though, I would guess that smaller family-integrated churches would definitely focus on marriage. The megas that I’ve attended have all placed a big focus on marrieds and families. Though, when I was single going to megas (even married with kids) I was so overworked to even really give it a second thought.

    Now being out of church, I hear so much from singles that when a church places a lot of emphasis on marrieds and families, they feel out of place. Take a look at the screenshot of the comments….that’s from Desiring God’s FB page. And, if Desiring God and Piper is pushing it, then you know there are a lot of churches out there who will follow suit. The church has done a lot to alienate people over the years and this is just one more issue to separate. I think the church can reach marrieds and singles without having to place a lot of emphasis on one category. I truly think the church can do better in this area.

    Like

  19. I had the opportunity to spend a few days with a single friend last year. When I watched all that she had to do, I was exhausted thinking about it. In my home, I have a spouse who is picking up the slack while I am in school, I have kids who do their own laundry and can cook, so in other words, we all share the load. In a marriage, that’s how it should be. But I was trying to imagine what it’s like to have to do everything by myself, including home repairs, car repairs, bills, everything. That doesn’t sound like a single person is going to be bored.

    I know of a fairly young widow (her kids are grown). He recently had surgery and has limited mobility. I imagine she’s saying “it sucks to be single,” at a time like this! Maybe some married should help her!

    I’m with Serving Kids in Japan – why do people think that single kids even want to babysit? I’m also not convinced that singles ever have a night off. There’s always dishes/cooking/laundry to be done, right?

    Oh, and here’s another – – what about being single with kids? Kathi, why didn’t they mention that? Oh, I know – – because that’s not God’s Design.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. naturally, you ignore my point and just call me callous.

    Do you understand my point?

    If single people are lonely and wondering why no one is organising special events for them perhaps they could do the very thing they accuse others of not doing.

    That was my point.

    It’s easy to complain and not be proactive.

    “I have no friends” says the person who doesn’t try to make friends with others who are lonely.

    Everyone today is a victim.

    Like

  21. Do you understand my point?

    No, I think I understand you perfectly. I am listening to your attitude.

    I NEVER said any of the things you mentioned. You went on the attack about how hilarious it is that some people are lonely. You seem to have no empathy. Also, I read your ‘it’s hilarious that people are lonely’ comment on valentines day so that was fun.

    You also accuse others of wanting to be ‘served’ when half of your comment was about how you are tired and want people to cook and watch your children.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Lea – I understand feeling lonely. I think the loneliest I ever felt was at a church where I felt like I never fit in. Lots of cliques and I wasn’t into that, so I never really connected with anyone even though I was very active there.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. @JPU:

    Centuries ago in Europe, wasn’t there more spiritual respect given to nuns and monks?

    Yes. It got out of hand and fermented into the Heresy of Clericalism, i.e. only Priests, Monks, and Nuns matter to God. Nobody else.

    Then during the Reformation Wars, having married or single clergy became an announcement of Whose Side You Were On; then since those Enemy Christians (Romish Papists) did singleness and celibacy, we Real True Christians ALL have to be married; then this gelled into Salvation by Marriage Alone and to Hell with singles.

    Like

  24. P.S. And then all these Salvation by Marriage Alone churches went right back into the Heresy of Clericalism. Except instead of single Priests, Monks, and Nuns it’s married Pastors, Elders, Missionaries, and Worship Musicians. Double so if CELEBRITY.

    Like

  25. @Salty:

    Singles aren’t some unique club which need to be banded together like a bunch of degenerates. Is that really what singles want?

    Someone in a long-ago comment thread put it this way:
    Church schedule:
    Monday night — Alcoholics Ministry
    Tuesday night — Homosexuals Ministry
    Wednesday night — Singles Ministry

    Singles meetings and dinners imply something unique and distinctive. I don’t think it’s healthy and normal to lump all ‘singles’ in programmed outings or meetings.

    Especially when the only programmed outings they seem to do are Dances (just like High School!)

    Like

  26. @BostonLady:

    Any place that teaches those things and acts towards women and children and victims the way they do and have done are not churches; they are men’s clubs.

    Not just “men’s clubs”.
    HE-MAN WOMAN-HATERS CLUBS.

    @JPU:

    Here’s a blog article about singleness on Valentines Day.

    You mean Singles Misery Day?

    Like

  27. Sorry, guys, but I can’t read “Salty”s handle without thinking of this Seventies-Eighties Christianese cartoon series whose main character was a talking book with the same name (but different spelling “Psalty”).

    Like

  28. It almost seems like because the world looks upon marriage with disdain (let’s face it less and less people are marrying and more young couples are living together unmarried instead) the church has gone overboard in trying to sell marriage to Christians as a noble estate at the expense of giving the impression to singles they are an afterthought. So this book it seems sought to sell singleness as a “but at least you can get closer to God” consolation prize. There are other books out there doing this. I’m sure there will be more.

    Like

  29. @JPU:

    Headless-Unicorn-Guy, yeah what memories of Psalty!

    Including the costumed-character live appearances at various half-remembered Christianese Culture War events. I’m familiar with “guerilla fursuiting” and mascots in general, but THAT was just cringeworthy.

    Like

  30. Never saw that; Psalty never came to my neck of the woods I guess. Just playing the records(which I can’t play anymore because I don’t have a record player, lol. Makes me feel old) and the songs get in my head. A lot of them are still relevant.(I may post some on a Sunday post one day) The stories can be really cheesy, and therefore created interesting memories with my siblings. And there was one or two we did as a drama at camp; that was fun. As a music person I still use some of that.
    Come to think of it, I wonder if the kids raised in the various Christian-like-cults got to listen to them, or Veggie Tales, or anything that could be considered “Christian-pop-culture”.

    Like

  31. JPU, I thought we used to do them for church plays but doublechecking the stuff I remember none of it was psalty. I was thinking bullfrogs and butterflies was a psalty song when looking it up it’s apparently agape.

    Of course, now I’m singing that and ‘germs, germs, my invisible dog’ in my head.

    Like

  32. I think the over-emphasis that Fundy churches put on marriage is unhealthy for married people, too. I’m married, but I’m not a Married (TM) as opposed to a Single (TM). I’m part of the body of Christ. I don’t need one more sermon about marriage, or one more Bible study about how to be a good wife. How bout a Bible study on the life of Jesus? On the Good Samaritan? On showing kindness and compassion to others? If needed, I can apply it to my marriage and family, and show more kindness to my husband and kids. Or if needed, I can apply it to others in the community and my circle of acquaintances. There is more to the Christian life than being married or single.

    Like

  33. @Lea:

    I was thinking bullfrogs and butterflies was a psalty song when looking it up it’s apparently agape.

    Bullfrogs & Butterflies — I remember that one from Eighties Christianese AM radio. Sounded like a children’s song, but they played it as if it were Top 40 for adults.

    Now here’s a real obscure-o for you: ever heard of one called “Pig In Mud”?

    Like

  34. @WaryWitness:

    I’m married, but I’m not a Married (TM) as opposed to a Single (TM). I’m part of the body of Christ.

    Does this mean you will associate with Singles?
    Because Marrieds(TM) don’t.

    Liked by 1 person

  35. Sounded like a children’s song, but they played it as if it were Top 40 for adults.

    Seriously?? It was definitely a childrens song. I was an 80s kid, though.

    Don’t remember pig in mud.

    Like

  36. If you are a single and think the ‘church’ has not met your needs I would ask when you last opened up your home to others and cooked a meal for others whether single or not?

    Last time you offered to babysit married people’s kids so THEY could have a night off?

    Attitude?

    Naturally.

    I haven’t had a night off for five years.

    Wouldn’t mind some bored singles serving me by babysitting my kids 😊

    Hi Salty,

    I’m single in my 30s, and I thought I’d answer your question.

    When’s the last time I watched someone else’s kids so they could have some time off? Well, I used to babysit for Sunday school many years ago (as well as for mid-week Bible studies). I quit because I got sick of parents lying about their kids only having “allergies”, when in fact they were very sick with a cold or whatever. Then I’d catch the cold, and I’d be bringing it home to my already sick mother, who has an auto-immune disease and can’t afford to catch a cold on top of it all.

    And you know what I got in return for watching other people’s kids (other than getting sick constantly)? Nothing. Who ever served ME? I had no friends. Nobody cared about me. I’m done. Thank God I found a church that doesn’t harp on about marriage all the time and then pressure me to work in the Sunday school.

    And you’ll forgive me if I don’t feel that your are actually entitled to use me as your free babysitter. Why don’t you save up your pennies and hire a teenager to watch your kids? Seriously. Drop the entitlement attitude. Quite frankly, I personally haven’t really ever asked for anything single-specific in church. I just want to be accepted as part of a bigger family, but that seems to only happen when someone needs a babysitter, and then suddenly it’s all, “We’re the family of God, so watch these kids.” And believe it or not, I’m capable of volunteering for stuff other than babysitting. So why should I do that for you instead of other things?

    As for your complaint about needing time off, you seem to be treating your kids like are a job rather than family? I want time off from a job, not from actual family members. I have a dog. He’s a perpetual two-year-old. He’s a member of my family. I’d never want time off from him. It’s one thing when I’d need someone to watch him for his own safety because I have to travel for work or whatever, but time off from my dog because I feel tired of him? Never! Even when he’s throwing up everywhere and other gross things from being sick and I have to clean up after him, I don’t want time off from my dog. How much less would I want time off from my own children (if I had any)? My own mother never talked about me like that. Unless she was sick and needed someone else to watch me because she couldn’t, she always made me feel like my company was valued.

    Keep talking like that, and your kids won’t feel very loved. You sound more like my sociopath of a father, who wished he had never had me and dragged his heels on spending any time with me. Sad.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. @HUG yes, I do associate with people who happen to be single, divorced, or widowed, and value their contribution to the extended family, workplace, church, etc. I’m sorry that there are Married TM people who treat singles like second class Christians.

    Personally, I went to a controlling Fundy church from my late teens through my early thirties (over a decade). I got married in my mid twenties, and the sexism/chauvinism became a lot more obvious to me once I was married. For example, all the teaching directed at wives to be submissive to their husbands. Or the fact that when my husband and I attempted to interact with another man or another couple, the man would talk exclusively to my husband and purposely avoid eye contact with me. When I was single, those type of men either didn’t interact with me at all, so I just thought they were unsociable, or if they had to talk to me, they talked to me, so I didn’t think anything of it.

    Once I had kids and my oldest grew to be a toddler, I noticed the sick, controlling attitude a lot more. There was so much peer pressure to spank him just because he couldn’t sit still during the looooong drawn out time of singing and announcements between Sunday school and church. Sometimes I would take him out and go hide in the restroom with him, just so that people would think I was spanking him and being a Good Mother (TM) by not failing to discipline him. They taught that if you didn’t discipline children the way they say you should (lots of spanking for the slightest sign of Rebellion TM) that you were essentially sending your children to Hell.

    I was oblivious to all this garbage as a single young grad student in my early twenties, and lots of kind elderly people used to invite me over for dinner when I was single. I recognize that that is not the case in all churches, and that it’s probably different for older singles. But my point is, that while these types of Fundy churches may put Marriage and Motherhood on a pedestal, there is a lot more pressure to perform and conform once you are married and have kids. Does that make sense?

    Blessings,
    Wary Witness

    Like

  38. @Lea:

    Don’t remember pig in mud.

    It would have been roughly contemporary to Bullfrogs & Butterflies, i.e. the mid-Eighties. Heard it a couple times on KBRT, and it was the absolute WEIRDEST CCM song I have ever come across. (I was big-time into Dr Demento through the Seventies & Eighties, so I was very familiar with weird novelty songs.) I’ve been unable to find any YouTube or audio of it online.

    This is what I remember of Pig in Mud. This was 30+ years ago, but that kind of strangeness sticks in your mind. Here’s how it went:

    It started with a male voice-over and some sound effects:
    “This is a pig.”
    “REEP! REEP!” (sound effect)
    “And this is mud.”
    (Splashing sound effect)
    “And this is Pig in Mud. The story of a backslider.”

    At this point a piano riff started looping; hard to give it in text, but it went something like “Oopa Oopa — Shoobeeoo Doopa” repeated over and over. Then the pig and splash sound effects came into the background.

    For the remainder of the song, the “REEP! REEP! REEP! REEP!” and splashing formed a rhythm section, gradually increasing in volume. As this was going on —

    A female voice-over entered the mix, reciting Bible verses about “The dog is returned to his vomit, and the sow to wallow in the mire” a couple of times while the “REEP! REEP! REEP! REEP!” and splashing increases in volume until it’s as loud as the piano loop.

    After a short interval of the pig and splash, both male and female voice-overs return, this time going “Turn Back!” “Re-pent!” “Turn Back!” “Re-pent!” in syncopation as the “REEP! REEP! REEP! REEP!” gets loud enough to drown them out.

    By this time the “REEP! REEP! REEP! REEP!” continues at full volume for a bit, then abruptly ends with a long “REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!” in a Doppler fade to silence like the sound cart fell down a mineshaft. End.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. Clockwork Angel,

    Of Salty you have this to say: “You sound more like my sociopath of a father.”

    Salty has been a highlight on this blog and an inspiration to many. Maybe you’re reading into her comment too much? Perhaps, I reckon, her tongue was in her cheek, where it is many times.

    Sociopath? No. But thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    Like

  40. The wary witness

    Thankfully I bought a book by dr Sears, a Christian pediatrician who had about 8 kids of his own, who explained that all the ” rod” verses as interpreted by most Pastors is incorrect…so I never spanked my kids.
    He also didn’t advise the ” tough love” letting your kids cry themselves to sleep. ( when they cry, ignore them).
    This was just as I was saved and my kids were 1 and 3 respectfully.
    I’m so glad I had that book, and I didn’t buy into this form of child abuse.

    Like

  41. Ps..once I was in a supermarket and a mom was spanking her toddler. I saw her a bit later in the same place again spanking the kid. I asked her how many times a day she spanked her kid and she said ” all day”.. So I said ” do you think it’s working”?
    Nothing makes me angrier than seeing a parent hit their kids.
    To think that the rod was something the shepherd used to guide the sheep lovingly, or to use the crook on the rod to move them…being used as abuse..so many have bought into the lie.
    And some wonder why their kids want nothing to do with Jesus.
    I would tell my kids to go to their room,( which really wasn’t a bad thing, except it took them away from Whatever they were doing), and think about what they did and talk to God about it. I really didn’t need to do this much.
    I would usually find them crying..a sign of remorse..and I would then talk about it.
    I didn’t do everything right..but this seemed to have worked..

    Like

  42. “And this is Pig in Mud. The story of a backslider.”

    Wow! That sounds absolutely bonkers. I don’t think we even had a Christian music station when I was a kid. We had an oldies station and a kids station, which played stuff like la cucharacha and other kid friendly stuff.

    Maybe you’re reading into her comment too much?

    EH, she had a chance to clarify and doubled down instead. I’m sure she can speak for herself, but I read her in a similar way.

    Like

  43. “Perhaps singles could entertain marrieds with five kids. Cook us a meal and babysit our tribes… then you can understand why you might not get weekly invites HAHAHAHA” – Salty

    I got tired of being expected as a single to take care of other peoples’ children at my former 9 Marxists (aka 9 Marks), authoritarian, John MacArthur-ite, NeoCalvinist church in Silicon Valley (California).

    I did it sometimes. I also cooked meals for people of all ages, including families who were coping with illness, shut-ins, and new parents.

    One church member (woman) repeatedly volunteered my childcare services to parents, without my knowledge, permission, or consent…and when I had repeatedly told her that I had NO free time and I was busy 7-days a week. I was publicly embarrassed and humiliated when confronted by parents that I was going to take care of their children because so-and-so “said so”. I had to apologize in public for something I’d never offered and I had NO time for.

    I get up at 3:30 a.m. in the morning to work a job in the real world, commute, take night classes for an advanced degree program, pull straight A’s, study, write reports, do homework, and take exams.

    What makes people think that because someone is single that they have NO life and are simply at the beck and call of married church members?

    Liked by 1 person

  44. Churches for the most part, are what I call demographically retarded. Most just don’t get it from a marketing standpoint. They focus 99.9% of the Church on married people with children, when 60% of people in the United States above the age of majority are SINGLE. Then they sit back and wonder why their church is NOT GROWING, why over 25% of men raised in the church drop out by age 25. Some of these men return after marriage but with people staying single longer, divorcing more and in some cases shunning marriage altogether the churches future is not one of numerical growth.

    As a single, never married guy I get why singles don’t feel like they fit in at church. Simple short answer : We don’t. If you live in a busy city like I do (DC METRO area) you are paying $1800-$2,500 in rent or in some cases maybe $3,000-$4,000 on a mortgage with one income. There is a great possibility that you are working full time, still going to school and even working a part time job or LOADS of overtime just to make it. There is not a lot of time to plug into every church event or function, or frankly volunteer to babysit someone’s kids. We don’t develop the same relations as couples do in the church. Our kids aren’t involved with other kids and thus families are meeting, because we don’t have kids. We are the odd man out except when it comes time for cheap potshots from church people. MY favorite , WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU ? You seem normal. WHY AREN’t YOU MARRIED ? When it’s time to crack on someone for being single they are inevitable accused of being gay. Often in a joking manner but still very damaging to single people. Once I said to this married guy, “What if I came up to you in front of people in church and said so what’s your problem you work with your wife in the nursery, are you a child molester ” ?

    Myself I dropped out of church 100% for a decade. Honestly it was the best thing in the world for me. A time of great healing with no church people to deal with. That being said I went back to church two years ago and I’m somewhat glad I did. I don’t attend every Sunday morning service, go back in the evening, go Wednesday night or attend a small group like I once did but I go ( occasionally) . On average three times a month between Sunday services and the occasional Sunday night. Honestly I’m enjoying it, but I will NEVER JOIN ANOTHER CHURCH or have my entire life revolve around it. I actually attend three different churches, will never just go to one or ” commit ” to one exclusively. If things go bad I want to be able to pull the plug at the drop of a hat and just not go to that particular church again. I look at the church like a convenience store or eating establishment, just another business that I occasionally patronage and spend /give a little money. Emotional attachment to a single 7/11 or Circle K would be pretty stupid, same with a church.

    Single people have come to regard or disregard the church depending how you look at it for obvious reasons. We get treated very differently than those married with children.

    Like

  45. Bullfrogs and Butterflies by Barry McGuire (Eve of Destruction singer from the 60’s) was released in the late 70’s. Barry was associated with Agape Force (a parachurch org) at the time and I was a part of that organization at the time. It was a children,s album and was released shortly after Agape Forced released The Music Machine children’s album about the fruits of the spirit. AF turned into a cult before it was dissolved in the 80’s.

    Like

  46. Velour,

    Ya, I have been back in the “single” category too for quite a while. I’m called a divorcée, a term that I abhor. There’s a stigma to it worse than the smell of pot, or as though I’ve buried some puppies alive. It is almost as though I have leprosy when people find out I am divorced, especially those of certain convictions, theologically-wise, like those of your former church and their mentally challenged ilk.

    Liked by 2 people

  47. Wary Witness, My experience was much like yours. I was taught growing up in a comp. church that “God’s Plan”(TM) for women and men was for women to submit and men to lead. Then my comp. parents would rip on women who put themselves in lay leadership positions, because they were thumbing their noses at God’s Plan and usurping authority.

    It wasn’t until I got married and saw what amazing gifts my wife had and how the church, at every turn, was telling her that her gifts could only be used for the social committee or Sunday School, or some other church-approved woman’s activity. It seems like the comp. men sit around and do nothing while they expect the women to do all of the toilet cleaning, meal preparation and cleanup, and then talk it down like the important work of the church is judging people and splitting theological hairs.

    Liked by 1 person

  48. Interesting discussion here about loneliness….. Just wanted to share one quick thought while we’re on this topic…….

    In defense of all the single people who at times feel lonely….

    Sometimes the real reason that they feel lonely is because they chose to obey the Lord. By turning away from the pleasures of the world to follow Christ, at times they will feel the sting of loneliness, finding themselves at home by themselves on a weekend night simply because instead of going out and indulging in the short term pleasure offered by the world—they chose to live for the Lord.

    God sees all of those sacrifices and carefully records even the littlest things we did simply because we loved the Lord.

    On the other hand, I agree with the other comments that the church seems to invest most of its resources into marriage and children’s ministry while forgetting that single people are just as an important part of the Body of Christ.

    Like

  49. I have made a point of asking single people I know if they feel excluded at church since I’ve read here that many do. I have gotten very enthusiastic YES answers.
    I don’t get the feeling they are bored or need a ‘singles group’, it is more that they are constantly hearing marriage relationships from the pulpit, things that don’t apply to their lives. They are, effectively, invisible in church. Of course, in reality, we all really deal with the same spiritual issues, single or married. Like the Wary Witness said, “How bout a Bible study on the life of Jesus? On the Good Samaritan? On showing kindness and compassion to others?” How about all the one-anothers of the Bible? I’m married and, frankly, I’m sick and tired of sermons on marriage. Jesus didn’t separate people into married, single, male, female, adult or children to teach- he taught truths that applied to all to everyone who came to listen.

    Liked by 2 people

  50. The thing I hate about this book is it is all about forcing yourself to follow rules, it’s not about loving one another. It is so limiting and artificial. You have to do it this way because God says so. I think God is a lot bigger and more accepting than they imagine.

    I also hate this:

    He knows that separating brings much sorrow and pain. Marriage is meant to be an example of God’s faithfulness to His people. So divorce in marriage is not showing God’s good example to others.

    Sometimes NOT separating brings a lot more sorrow and pain than separating does. So if it’s the sorrow and pain God is against, then why does he require one to stay in a situation of sorrow and pain? They do not really believe this. They believe that following arbitrary rules is more important to God than anyone’s sorrow or pain.

    Any loyal, faithful, loving relationship can picture God’s love (a limited picture). He is love, he is the inventor and designer of love. If a relationship does not have the qualities of God’s love it is NOT a picture of God’s faithfulness just because it’s a marriage.

    A marriage is a joining of two people, not a demonstration of God. What an impossible job these people have set up for themselves, I can’t imagine the stress and frustration that must be involved in trying to make a marriage into a demonstration of God to the world (who, btw, is not watching or caring or seeing what these people think they see). Also I think it would bring a great deal of pride if anyone thinks they are really succeeding in being a demonstration of God.

    If a marriage is one of abuse, pain, sorrow and strife, it is not “showing God’s good example to others” – and forcing yourself to stay married in spite of misery is not going to make it so. Life is too short to waste on a fool’s errand. If a person has made a mistake, I believe it’s okay to admit it and start anew.

    Liked by 3 people

  51. Part 1.
    Salty’s attitude towards singles is disgusting and appalling.

    Your attitude towards singles (which is common among in a lot of churches, unfortunately) is one reason of several I no longer go to any church any more, and one of several I am turned off in general from the whole of Christianity.

    You don’t know anything about singleness if you got married in your 20s.
    Being single in your mid 30s to 40s or older (never married) is not the same as being single in your 20s.

    Until around a decade or so ago, it was normal and common for most people to marry by their early to mid-20s. So, you did never did fully experience how marginalized singles are in churches.

    I didn’t feel that sensation until I returned to a church alone in my mid-30s. You don’t notice the absolute fixation upon marriages churches have until the older you get and walk into churches alone (mid 30s or later).

    Takes awhile to sink in, just like the article by the 40 something married with kids woman who said she never before noticed how much churches drool over married with kids couples until she hit age 40 and her last kid went off to college leaving her and her husband alone.

    She then noticed that her whole church was obsessed with late 20s couples who were married with kids at home and didn’t give a rat’s butt about anyone who fell outside that narrow demographic.

    Lately, more and more Americans are either marrying for the first time in their late 20s or later, or not at all.

    Marrieds are already catered to up the wazoo in most baptist and protestant churches, because such churches are obsessed with The Nuclear Family and their Traditional Gender Roles, which doesn’t know what to do with Never Married (or divorced, widowed) adults. We don’t fit their plans, goals, or biases.

    Liked by 1 person

  52. I’m too am single and get a bit annoyed that the churches focus too much on married people as if marriage is the only goal for Christians, I’ve even read on other Christian blogs of Christian women admitting to teaching to their children God designs them to be married with kids but don’t believe that is the call for every single believer. I mean there are examples of many Christians who devoted their gifts to ministries charities, missionaries etc and never married or had children. There are even several people who were single in the bible including the Apostle Paul who embraced singleness even encouraged among fellow believers even though he wasn’t against marriage but as you mentioned there are several benefits of singleness among followers of Christ. Thanks for the post and God Bless.

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Part 2.
    Response to Salty’s awful posts.

    There is nothing wrong or selfish with singles wanting and expecting to get their needs met in or by a church. Marrieds already do.

    Further, single adults are not glorified baby-sitters for marrieds. As a matter of fact, that is a cliche.

    We singles, especially if female (and I don’t like kids, really, so no, I don’t want to spend more time around them, no thank you), are asked to “serve marrieds” by baby-siting their kids for free constantly. Every blog post or magazine article or Christian I’ve heard often toss out the old chest nut of “serve the married couples by baby sitting their kids for free!”.

    Marrieds are seldom to never asked to serve singles in whatever capacity, however.

    If we singles rightly point out how we are marginalizes by churches, we are told by the likes of you we are “being selfish.”

    Nope. I am just done, done, done, with being a doormat who people take, take, take from and never give to in return – and who try to shame me or guilt trip me for speaking up and demanding my rights in return. I am not a doormat for anyone any more.

    Salty said,

    Singles aren’t some unique club which need to be banded together like a bunch of degenerates. Is that really what singles want?

    Some may, some may not. Singles differ among each other.

    Do all married people like the color pink? Do all married people like to ice skate or go fishing?

    Salty said,

    Singles meetings and dinners imply something unique and distinctive. I don’t think it’s healthy and normal to lump all ‘singles’ in programmed outings or meetings. The body has many members and my point is that many people simply have little time to entertain others outside that Sunday window.

    It depends on the singles, but some may want meetings and activities geared just for them and their station in life. God knows most churches force singles to sit through all kinds of marriage related dreck – including every third sermon in most churches, which is about “how to have a happy marriage.”

    Then the preacher will say, “And singles, don’t you despair, you too can still benefit from this sermon.”

    We singles get subjected to Marriage / Nuclear Family crap all the time, whether we want it or not.

    You marrieds can put up with the occasional function for singles, or sermon about singleness in return. And yes, you should be willing to help singles.

    Some singles are over 40, their biological family is dead or abusive – like mine. So I don’t have anyone to help me should I need help with stuff – financial, repairs, a drive to a doctor’s appointment.

    The is why Jesus Christ taught you are NOT to put your wife, kids, etc, above him. You’re supposed to regard your spiritual sisters in Christ as your family because they have nobody else.

    What about Muslims who convert to Christianity? Often,they are ostracized, considered infidels, and their families shun them. They don’t have a support system any more because their family disowned them. Jesus teaches that the church is supposed to step up and be a family TO those types of people as well.

    Salty and people like him should read this:
    _“Who is my mother and who are my brothers?”_

    But this is a very common attitude – many Christian married couples, who are already spoiled out the butt by most churches, expect single adults to drop everything to meet the needs of marrieds.
    As if singles are not good for anything but babysitting or cleaning up the church kitchenette – so biased, so condescending.

    A similar annoying thing happened at WW a few years ago.
    The ladies at WW graciously did a post about how the church treats singles like doo-doo, and a married early 30ish guy with a toddler at home Daddy-Jacked the thread to moan and gripe about how HARD it is to be a married daddy with a kid.

    He was also very condescending to all the singles on the thread (some over age of 50, never married). He thinks because he didn’t get married until age – late 20s or early 30s (I don’t recall the age he cited), that being single at 40+ is the SAME, and that it’s SO EASY. I wanted to smack that guy so hard.

    Liked by 1 person

  54. Salty said,

    “If single people are lonely and wondering why no one is organising special events for them perhaps they could do the very thing they accuse others of not doing.”

    No. Singles shouldn’t have to get their own needs met and organize everything on their own behalf. Marrieds don’t have to do this. Churches automatically host all sorts of pro-marriage social functions, events, sermons, etc.

    This happens so often, I’ve read tons and tons of blog posts and chatted with so many adult singles. Any time one of them goes to their church and tells the preacher they’ve noticed the discrepancy, the pastor always puts it back on to the adult single who is talking to them: “Why don’t YOU take care of it.”

    No. That is a way for a church and pastor to “weasel” out of helping singles.

    For me in particular, I’m an introvert, reserved, a follower, not a leader, so I would NOT feel comfortable setting up events, parties, classes and whatever for other singles.
    Churches do all this stuff for marriage and married couples all the time, they can dang well do it for singles too.

    Salty said,

    “I have no friends” says the person who doesn’t try to make friends with others who are lonely.”

    Wow. Awful. Totally insensitive attitude.

    I’ve been an introvert over my whole life, used to have S.A.D. (social anxiety disorder and clinical depression, still have anxiety (which impacts when, where, and how often I can leave the house), when I was a kid my dad’s job forced us to move every two years.

    Was bullied by many kids at most schools I went to, so I didn’t make many friends growing up.

    My two older siblings wanted nothing to do with me.

    My only constant friend over my life was my mother, who died several years ago, which pretty much left me alone.

    I never married, so I don’t have a spouse.

    After my Mom’s passing, I tried reaching out to extended family for support, people at local churches, etc., some of them shamed me for going to them over this or just for wanting to chit-chat, some would not return calls or e-mails, or find excuses to brush them off. They were totally unhelpful.

    Christians were not willing to weep with those who weep, as the Bible tells them to do. Most are selfish and cannot be bothered to help those who are in grief or some other sort of bad situation.

    None of that is me “being a victim” but has been the reality of my life.

    By the way, that whole ‘be a friend to make a friend’ is a load of crap. Have tried it numerous times over my life, and it hasn’t worked for me.

    If anything, I’ve been used and taken advantage of repeatedly (by an ex, but mostly by women friends) who have talked my ear off for YEARS about their problems but never show interest in my life or problems.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. HUG commenting on Salty’s post:

    Someone in a long-ago comment thread put it this way:
    Church schedule:
    Monday night — Alcoholics Ministry
    Tuesday night — Homosexuals Ministry
    Wednesday night — Singles Ministry

    I find this is a tricky area. This is why I was telling Salty that not all singles are alike.

    Some singles want singles only events, some don’t.

    Some singles don’t like being shuffled off to the side in a church, because singles classes turn into “Singles Ghettos.”

    Some singles feel that social events hosted by a church for singles are “wrong” (are “meat markets”) while others don’t share that view and would welcome a church holding more social events stuff for adults.

    Maybe each church could occasionally survey the over 30 singles to find out what the singles in their church would prefer.

    IMO, a mix would be great. Maybe incorporate singles among the marrieds more often, but also offer the occasional “singles only” class or party or whatever.

    I don’t like how churches make singles feel like out-casts by segregating them from the marrieds, however, as a single, I have issues I deal with that marrieds over 30 may not fully understand and appreciate, and I’d feel more comfortable talking to another single about.

    I wonder if Salty is related to Linda at WW blog? Linda, over a year ago (at the other blog), also had some nasty attitudes about singles – she thinks all single women are minxes and harlots out to steal married men and should stay away from married men. Such revolting attitudes about singles…

    Like

  56. HUG said,
    “You mean Singles Misery Day?”

    I don’t even remember Valentine’s Day any more. I kept forgetting about it this year, unless and until I saw commercials for it on TV, telling men to buy diamond necklaces for their wives, or flowers.

    Like

  57. I hope Salty is paying attention-
    From the New York Times, talks about a study about how married couples are so wrapped up in each other that they are selfish (they don’t meet the needs of people around them):

    The Greedy Marriage

    A snippet from that page:

    They argue that marriage may actually, albeit unwittingly, have just the opposite effect – sapping the strength of American communities and diminishing our ability to think and act for the common good.

    “Many, bemoaning the retreat from marriage, also mourn the loss of community,” they wrote in the Fall 2006 issue of Contexts, a journal of the American Sociological Association. “What these nostalgic discussions do not recognize, ironically, is that marriage and community are often at odds with one another.”

    …Gerstel and Sarkisian say that they have nothing against marriage. They argue that the nature of the institution in America has changed – in ways that can endanger both society and the marriages themselves. And on this point, it turns out, even their critics agree

    …And the same things that have made it [marriage] more passionate and beneficial for its members have also made it more isolating.”

    …They found that married respondents were significantly less likely than the unmarried to contact or see their parents and siblings, or to give them emotional or “practical” support, such as help with chores or babysitting. The married also less frequently spent time with or helped friends and neighbors.

    Like

  58. Clockwork Angel said,

    Quite frankly, I personally haven’t really ever asked for anything single-specific in church.

    I have not, either.

    I have read blog posts by other singles who have, and when they ask their pastor for singles-specific stuff, or at least for the pastor to occasionally address singleness in a sermon here or there, the pastor always puts it back on to the single.

    The pastor throws it back on to the lap of the single to start up some kind of singles program or what not.

    I personally have not gone into a church and asked them to do anything for singles – what I do, when I walk in, is if I see it’s a church that is too marriage-focused and offers little to nothing for single adults over the age of 35, is I don’t stay, or I don’t go in the first place (I used to research churches by visiting their sites first before driving over for a visit).
    At this point, I don’t know if I’ll ever step foot in a church a guy – one reason being all the horror stories I see of churches that abuse or neglect the people who attend, as discussed here or over at the WW blog.

    So, I’ve never personally asked a church to offer more stuff for singles, BUT, I do notice that churches don’t bother to help singles (which is really stupid because single adults are now (as of 2014) greater in number in the U.S. than married couples).

    It doesn’t make sense to me to alienate and exclude or anger over 50% of the U.S. population, but churches continue to do so.

    Like

  59. Correction on this from my last post:
    “if I’ll ever step foot in a church a guy ”

    Should be,
    “if I’ll ever step foot in a church AGAIN…”

    Like

  60. Daisy,

    It’s really nice to hear from you again. I’ve missed seeing your comments here.

    You’ve got a brilliant way of analyzing things in a very entertaining way. And you have a brutal honesty that is very refreshing. Many people don’t have the courage to share the kind of personal details that you’ve been willing to share in many previous discussions to help others facing similar challenges. If you need to keep things more private now that’s totally understandable, but I really hope you will continue to share your thoughts. You have a very powerful perspective that needs to be heard.

    I’m sorry to hear that things are hard for you right now, I’ll be praying for you too.

    By the way, there’s only a few blogs that I subscribe to and Daisy’s is one of them.

    Liked by 1 person

  61. Clock work Angel said,

    And you know what I got in return for watching other people’s kids (other than getting sick constantly)? Nothing. Who ever served ME? I had no friends. Nobody cared about me. I’m done. Thank God I found a church that doesn’t harp on about marriage all the time and then pressure me to work in the Sunday school.

    I read a series of blog posts a few years ago when I was still in my 30s by a woman who was in her 40s at the time.
    She had never married. She was attending a Baptist church that was roughly 2,000 miles from her biological family (her parents).
    She served faithfully at her Baptist church for a few years – she taught the teen-aged or college kids every Sunday and did a bunch of other stuff for her church.

    At some point, she needed back surgery and the doctor ordered her to take a few weeks of bed rest. She had to take time off from her job. I’m pretty sure she said she told her church she was going to be out for surgery.

    She said during her X number of weeks of bed rest, she had to skip church, and not one single time during her absence did anyone from her church drop by to visit or phone her to ask her how she was! Nobody dropped by to bring her soup or ask if she needed help. Her only (biological family) was 2,000 miles away.

    She said that really stung that nobody from her church checked in on her. It dawned on her that Baptists do put marriage and Family on a pedestal, and ignore singles or take them for granted.

    She went to her Baptist preacher and confronted him about all this. I can’t recall the details of how it panned out. I can’t remember if the preacher said he didn’t realize she was out sick or if he knew but couldn’t be bothered to care. She was like, “What if I was an 89 year old widow? I bet you or someone else would’ve checked in on me, but because I’m a 40 something never married single adult, you can’t be bothered.”

    She then started church shopping after that, to find a denomination that was more singles-friendly.

    This is a reminder of how some people do NOT have a spouse or biological family to lean on in times of need and how a church could step up and be family for a person who doesn’t have any (biological family).

    This woman sure would’ve appreciated someone just looking in on her, or bringing her mail in for her, or whatever, and being like family to her. But nobody at her church cared.

    Like

  62. The Wary Witness said,

    But my point is, that while these types of Fundy churches may put Marriage and Motherhood on a pedestal, there is a lot more pressure to perform and conform once you are married and have kids. Does that make sense?

    Yes, that is very true.
    Jerky Christians will get you coming on going on all sorts of life issues.

    When you are single, it’s not good enough to be single, so they will pressure you or shame you into getting married.

    Once married, you have to have a kid.

    But you have to (depending on the denomination) use certain types of “Christian approved” birth control (or none at all).
    And having one kid that is not good enough, nope.
    You have to have however many the Jerky Christians say is acceptable (depending on which type of church, that may be 3 kids, it may be 10, or if at a Duggar’s-like church, it may be 35 children).
    Then the Jerky Christians will criticize you for when, how, or if you discipline those kids.

    It never stops. The judgement and nit picking on people’s life choices never stops.

    Like

  63. Thank you, Avid Reader. I would imagine I probably annoy a lot of people, LOL, so maybe they’d appreciate a break from me.
    I definitely have a lot on my mind lately, which is one reason I’ve not been on the internet so much.

    Like

  64. Daisy,

    You’re welcome. 🙂

    Right now it’s totally understandable if you don’t have the time for this, but if you did have the time, you would be really powerful at reviewing Christian books. You could totally shred the twisted doormat type theology.

    Liked by 1 person

  65. I have always considered churches demographically retarded in that they are so very clueless with respect to marketing. Over 60% of Americans over the age of majority are SINGLE, and they do everything they can to piss us off and chase us away from church. The church I go to for example, has for years hosted a singles event on or around Valentine’s day. It was very well attended. Then 3 years ago the pastor’s wife left him and sued for divorce claiming abuse. Since it was near the time of the singles event, they cancelled it and have ever since. The momentum of building year after year on past events is then lost. That’s why successful churches are successful and declining churches are decliners.

    Liked by 1 person

  66. The Wary Witness said,

    But my point is, that while these types of Fundy churches may put Marriage and Motherhood on a pedestal, there is a lot more pressure to perform and conform once you are married and have kids. Does that make sense?

    Because they have Marriage (abstract concept) and Motherhood (abstract concept) on the pedestal, not RL married people and mothers.

    Like the Communists of the last century, who committed (and justified) atrocities against their own RL people in the name of “The People” (abstract concept).

    Like

  67. @Daisy:

    It doesn’t make sense to me to alienate and exclude or anger over 50% of the U.S. population, but churches continue to do so.

    Real kicker when you consider the church began in a time and place where the most important thing was your clan/tribe/family lineage. (Like your “House” in Game of Thrones.) The Church originally provided a clan for the clanless, tribe for the tribeless, and family/lineage for those without. And not just any lineage, but the divine Lineage of Christ.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. @Daisy:

    But this is a very common attitude – many Christian married couples, who are already spoiled out the butt by most churches, expect single adults to drop everything to meet the needs of marrieds.

    Which also has the effect of pressuring singles to Get Married and Start Breeding. Because once you say “I Do”, you’re a MARRIED; not only do you get to sit at the grown-ups’ table with all the other Marrieds, now those Singles have to Serve YOU.

    Some single Christian female once described a very surreal date/courtship/whatever with a guy whose goal was Getting Married (abstract concept) and she was just the necessary piece of equipment.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. @Shy1:

    A marriage is a joining of two people, not a demonstration of God. What an impossible job these people have set up for themselves,

    Abstract Concept again…

    Like

  70. Hey Daisy,

    I got married closer to 30 than 20 so I know all about being single in the real world.

    I never suffered from loneliness as I was quite busy working full time and had friends to catch up with often.

    My comments were not intended to offend people. I apologise if you or others were hurt by my thoughts.

    I have had many single friends in my life since being married and not one has ever complained of being left out or not considered (in any context).

    The ‘church’ institution IS people. Your article about married people made me laugh.

    Daisy, I wake up every morning at 5:30am to multiple small children. I don’t sleep in and am always tired. Last night I entertained Five people for dinner. It was a Monday night.

    Is that enough to satisfy? Does this count as active married person service?

    Am I doing -enough- for the singles in my community?

    Three of those five were singles.

    Can I get a medal please?

    Awful?

    For expressing an opinion you disagree with?

    Which part was awful?

    Suggesting single people DO something about the problem?

    No. It’s everyone else’s job to do it.

    Blame the church institutions or marrieds.

    But don’t blame the singles.

    Like

  71. I don’t want to discuss all my personal business, but I’ve not been doing terribly well lately.

    I’m so sorry, Daisy. I thought of you as well.

    Avid Reader- I really appreciated your earlier comment.

    Suggesting single people DO something about the problem? No. It’s everyone else’s job to do it.

    shakes head You really aren’t listening at all.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Some single Christian female once described a very surreal date/courtship/whatever with a guy whose goal was Getting Married (abstract concept) and she was just the necessary piece of equipment.

    I don’t know that this was Christian related, but I went on a date last year with a guy who started laying out stats right away, like we were both single with no kids, and wasn’t that uncommon and he needed to get started with kids right away and then started laying out proper age ranges for babymaking! Wow.

    there was no second date.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. @Salty, I’ll mostly stay out of what you said, but I think this doesn’t count as an apology. “My comments were not intended to offend people. I apologise if you or others were hurt by my thoughts.” This is a non-apology – like hitting someone and saying I’m sorry if your nose was somehow offended. If you don’t understand what it is you said that others would find offensive, then it is pointless to say you’re sorry. Sorry for what?

    That said, I think there is a common theme here. There used to be intergenerational expectations within families about how people at certain stages of life were cared for, and how they cared for others. It was not some “selfless” thing, but a necessity based on the lack of, shall I say, societal infrastructure.

    Maybe a word picture… On the family farm in the 1800’s, the kids did their chores, the parents managed the farm, and the grandparents took care of the kids while there was work to be done. The parents were responsible to educate their children, because there was no Social Security and no welfare to take care of them when they got old and unable to make living. The grandparents reaped the benefits of raising hard-working kids. There was an inter-generational bond that was created through the necessity of having to invest in people rather than relying on external financial systems.

    In the Great Depression, there was somewhat a perfect storm that broke this social contract. First of all, the government forced farmers to use modern, “scientifically proven” farming techniques. These techniques destroyed the soil structure and led to the dust bowl – the fertile top layers of soil blew away leaving land that could not be farmed. This led to farms that could not support the intergenerational model. On top of that, banks were allowing stock speculators to take out loans on stock value alone. This was invested in the stock market, and when the stock market crashed, those loans defaulted and the banks could not pay the depositors, so they “called” the mortgages against the farm land, forcing farmers off their land. Unemployed families could no longer provide food for the grandparents and children.

    The “solution” to this was to create government societal infrastructure, expanded welfare, Social Security, expanded education. The idea being that at every stage of life, government would provide a minimal standard of living so that such a disaster would never happen, but the downside is that it also created an “entitlement” mentality. That is, at each stage of life, people expect some government services in exchange for the money that they are paying, or have paid, in taxes. But, that has led to some interesting societal problems. Education, for example, is failing primarily because good education requires a lot of work on the parents’ behalf, but reaps no reward. The well-educated children get good jobs and move away.

    This has crept into the church as well. Every stage of life is hard, and people in every stage have needs that they expect to be met by others. However, many times, they believe they’ve already contributed their “part” to the system. For example, I pay tithes, therefore, I am entitled to be a recipient of church “ministry”, even when I choose not to “minister”.

    I was a kid growing up in the church. I was a single in the church, married in the church, married with a young family in the church, and now we don’t have any infants or toddlers. At each stage, I’ve felt like the church has been completely ignorant and even blatantly dismissive of my needs. I don’t think it’s some evil intent, just that the nature of the leadership (typically retired married men who have no obvious “needs”) tends to be completely ignorant of the needs of the congregation.

    So, when we had young kids, we were “encouraged” to come to the weekly prayer meeting. We said that we couldn’t because we spent all of our time/energy keeping our kids from being disruptive. So, they asked some of the teenage kids to volunteer to watch our kids. That was great, until they (ignorantly) decided that the teenage kids needed to be part of the prayer meeting (1-2 months later!) so we stopped attending. We used to trade off in the nursery so that the other parent could participate in the service. Again, the ignorant leaders got a complaint that (gasp!) NURSING mothers were in the nursery and how dare men watch their kids in the nursery. So, I watched the kids at home and my wife went to church.

    So, even as the “target” church family type, we found that the church did not bend over backwards to help us. I think, though, if there is any group within the church that they would try to help, it is that group, because families with really young kids tend to be the most overwhelmed and obviously in need of help. Perhaps the push towards the “normal” cycle of life is just because that’s the characteristic of the leadership. They decide that their life is the correct life and then push everyone to conform to that – marry, raise kids, take care of grandkids, etc., and if someone doesn’t fit their mold, they try to push them into it.

    Like

  74. To expand this a bit, perhaps there is an emotional longing for that inter-generational connectedness, and since the church is the vehicle to satisfy all emotional-longings-that-get-baptized-into-spiritual-longings, then this connectedness is a model that people are trying to force on the church.

    I think I still struggle with this today. I see some area where I’m unfulfilled, and I try to find some connection between that fulfillment and what the church ought to be doing that it isn’t doing. Whether that connection exists… I don’t think I can know for sure.

    Like

  75. Then 3 years ago the pastor’s wife left him and sued for divorce claiming abuse. Since it was near the time of the singles event, they cancelled it and have ever since.

    scott, I just wanted to point this out, because sometimes church events are dictated by the pastor, what the pastor wants, what their priorities are. I don’t know if that’s what you were talking about, but the church imo should be able to continue to be itself despite what is going on with the pastor and too often this is not so.

    Like

  76. Lea,

    “like we were both single with no kids, and wasn’t that uncommon and he needed to get started with kids right away and then started laying out proper age ranges for babymaking!”

    Speed dating in its purest and every possible form!

    Like

  77. @Lea:

    I don’t know that this was Christian related, but I went on a date last year with a guy who started laying out stats right away, like we were both single with no kids, and wasn’t that uncommon and he needed to get started with kids right away and then started laying out proper age ranges for babymaking! Wow.

    Not exactly what I remember from that prior example, but similar. He wanted lotsa kids (abstract concept) and you were just getting scoped out as a necessary piece of equipment (broodmare).

    Like

  78. Part 1.
    Salty said,

    My comments were not intended to offend people. I apologise if you or others were hurt by my thoughts.

    Well thank you for that, I guess, but then you go on in the rest of your post to sound pretty irate and insulting towards singles, and you seem totally oblivious to the points I raised in posts above.

    Most churches already heavily minister to married couples, or realize that they exist. They strive to recognize and help married mothers, the nuclear family, etc, but tend to freeze out anyone who is never married, childless, divorced, or widowed.

    No, singles should not have to “fix” anything. Churches should provide functions and ministries for adult singles – which they already do for married couples. Putting it back on to the singles is once again marginalizing single adults.

    As I said above, I’m a follower and an introvert, so an adult single like me would not feel comfortable starting or leading some kind of singles class or ministry. That is not my gifting, either.

    I don’t recall mentioning loneliness in any of my posts either – that is a topic you keep bringing up. Some adult singles may feel lonely, some may not.

    Some may do fine on some days, but feel lonely on others – Jesus taught you are to be a “second family” to such adults, who have no living family of their own. Churches and most Christians fail at that.

    That article I cited above, discussing a study about married couples, explains how once married, most married couples become insular – singles actually help out their family, friends, and communities more than marrieds do, because marrieds spend all their time gazing into each other’s eyes and “focusing on their nuclear families.”

    Also instructive on that point is a book by two Christians authors, Field and Colon, called “Singled Out,” where they spend at least one chapter discussing how this happens even among Christians – many to most Christian married couples fixate so heavily on their spouses that they tend to ignore other people and helping others (which is not good).

    Salty said,

    Is that enough to satisfy? Does this count as active married person service?
    Am I doing -enough- for the singles in my community?
    Three of those five were singles.
    Can I get a medal please?

    With your terrible attitude towards singles, you probably made them squirm due to discomfort all through the meal.

    I swear to goodness you remind me of “Linda” at WW blog. Similar condescending, un-empathetic attitudes towards singles as her.

    Your inviting a single or two over for a meal does not cancel out the patronizing, unsympathetic views I’m seeing from you in this discussion.

    You can hold a different opinion from mine. That’s fine and dandy with me… way to twist the substance of my disagreement with you.

    What I object to is how insensitive and arrogant you have come across towards singles and how singles are treated like crud (or else totally ignored) by most churches.

    Like

  79. Part 2
    Salty said,

    Suggesting single people DO something about the problem?
    No. It’s everyone else’s job to do it.
    Blame the church institutions or marrieds.

    Yep, that I will do, because (put this on repeat) most churches are consumed with The Nuclear Family. They don’t care an iota about singles (never marrieds, divorced, or widows).

    Any time I’ve ever read a blog post by an adult single online who went to their church asking the church folks (e.g., the pastor) to please sermonize more on singles (in churches where every other sermon is about Marriage), or to offer more services to singles, the church always tosses it back on to the shoulders of the singles, which is the church’s way of discouraging the single and making sure nothing gets done.

    It’s a way of passing the buck and doing nothing to help singles, to ensure the status quo stays intact.

    Some singles may not have the time, energy, temperament, or gifting to set up or start or maintain singles- related functions and services. Hence, they ask or plead with the pastor to set something up, or create a committee to start something.

    You continue to overlook the fact that most churches are already very marriage-focused.
    Most all their social events and so on are aimed at Married Couples, or at “families” (and by “family” they mean married couples with kids). Marrieds usually have their needs met more often by churches.

    Why not insist that marrieds get their own needs met and do everything? Do away with all nursery areas? Stop it with the “family pot lucks” and marriage sermons, and have churches tell all the marrieds to hire their own baby sitters, or set up their own classes for marrieds? You’re never going to see that.

    Some churches don’t want to financially support singles or singles ministries or events. They’d rather pour all the church funds into marrieds or youth (kiddie) type classes and things.

    Like

  80. Part 3.

    You are really oblivious to how much churches either overlook or flat- out insult singles.
    I’ve had older, Christian never married men (on other sites, who are now in their 50s or older) share with me how they’ve been to churches in their 20s to older, where the pastor would say stuff from the pulpit on a Sunday morning like, “If you’re a man and not married by 25, you are a homosexual.”

    Singles are made to feel like they are failures or weirdos at many churches if they haven’t married at all, or not by a certain age.

    Churches are always honoring motherhood and so forth, but I’ve never seen churches honor the singles.

    I’ve not yet seen or heard of a church that has asked the never married, childless women to step forward to receive a flower, or get a plaque congratulating them on getting a college degree, or buying their own home, etc.

    Singles (and singlehood) are not acknowledged, honored, or recognized by churches, but parents and married people (as well as marriage and parenthood) sure are, and on a regular basis.

    As Julia Duin outlines in her book that came out several years ago (entitled “Quitting Church”), adult singles have noticed that most churches don’t do squat to help singles or address their needs (especially if they are over age 35), and they have responded by dropping out of church in droves.

    Singles are tired of being ignored or taken advantage of (depends on which church one goes to – some church environments ignore singles, while in others, they are treated like a free labor pool, or are shamed, even from the pulpit, for being single).

    Like

  81. HUG may remember me discussing the content of this essay before:

    “‘Why Christians Need to Embrace a Changing Definition of Family”.

    It was written by a Laura Kenna. It was in “Christianity Today.” I don’t think I want to link to it. It was terrible.

    It’s been awhile since I’ve read it, but from what I recall of it:
    It started out on a promising note, with Kenna saying how churches put too much emphasis on families and exclude singles – which is true, they sure do.

    Unfortunately, Kenna’s patronizing “solution” on how to “help” singles was to advise that churches and Christians exploit singles as free slave labor.

    It is the old Christian cliche’ singles hear all the time: “Hey singles, act as a free babysitter to the married couples in your church!”

    Kenna went on and on in her essay about how she was married with a small kid or two, her closest family lives X miles away and could not always visit to help her out, she is dog tired all the time caring for kids, and by golly, she just realized how handy dandy adult singles can be, and why God invented adult singles:
    To offer her free baby-sitting and to scrub her kitchen for her!

    She is sort of scolding married adults who may be reading her essay, telling them, “Shame on you, married Christians, for “second-classing” the singles among us and ignoring them!”
    – But then she has to ruin that by spurting out (essentially), “You see, marrieds, you can utilize the singles to scrub your kitchen when your mother lives too far away from you to do it. You are so foolish to ignore a perfectly good cheap labor market!”

    According to Kenna, I, as a single adult, exist to scrub the toilets, clean up pantries, and wipe snot off baby’s noses for married couples, especially Christian married couples.

    Like

  82. Then 3 years ago the pastor’s wife left him and sued for divorce claiming abuse. Since it was near the time of the singles event, they cancelled it and have ever since.

    scott, I just wanted to point this out, because sometimes church events are dictated by the pastor, what the pastor wants, what their priorities are. I don’t know if that’s what you were talking about, but the church imo should be able to continue to be itself despite what is going on with the pastor and too often this is not so.

    Lea, You are so right on that. It’s especially true in baptist “top down” churches where the pastor is little LORD fauntleroy running everything. What I found interesting is he resigned immediately and the interim guy (his father) just cancelled everything singles related. Then he preached on marriage for two months. I guess if your son is knocking the wife around and she has decided to leave the marriage, that’s a great time to focus on the same ole marriage message……..

    ” Six ways to love your wife like Christ loves the church” , in sermon 1. Then for weeks 2-8 we explore 68,987 ways to be a submissive wife and ” set the tone” for the home so your husband doesn’t beat you (or in the case of RC Scum jr spank you).

    What was really bizarre was the woman’s seminar still went on despite it being only 5 weeks after the cancelled singles event. They even had to line up a new speaker as the pastor’s wife was scheduled to speak before she filed for divorce.

    So yeah, my experience has pretty much been EXACTLY what Daisey has been saying. Even the you must be gay comments, ” your a decent looking guy and well off, why aren’t you married ? Are you a homo or something “. I have taken to answering that one of two ways depending on how sarcastic I’m feeling. (1) Nope, I’m straight and a crossdresser just like you. I just haven’t found a wife as understanding as yours. (2) No, I’m totally straight and even if I was gay YOU WOULD NOT BE MY TYPE so don’t even go there ! With that you hold up both hands in a blocking motion and walk away mumbling : wow it’s true he is married, BI-sexual baptist.

    Like

  83. What I found interesting is he resigned immediately and the interim guy (his father) just cancelled everything singles related. Then he preached on marriage for two months. I guess if your son is knocking the wife around and she has decided to leave the marriage, that’s a great time to focus on the same ole marriage message……..

    Wow! That’s bonkers. Pretty sure I would have been out of there right quick.

    Daisy, I think what you’re getting at is that many churches are out of balance. Honestly, I get why they might not have an over 35 singles group – just numbers wise it might not work. All my friends at church my age are married but one. But they include me in the group stuff, and they don’t preach on marriage all the time (or to my recollection, ever). Meanwhile, I think I”ve told this story, but I had a rotten breakup last year and went to visit a friend and we visited gateway on valentines day and there was a marriage sermon, complete with the ‘don’t worry singles, you’ll be married someday’ nonsense. Not. Helpful.

    Like

  84. btw, scott, I’m confused why they would take the divorce of the pastor out on singles! That makes no sense. Did they think she just wanted to be single, rather than leave the abuse??

    Like

  85. Lea – That article…Wow! From it:

    “The God-given burden our husbands have for shepherding the entire family is a heavy one, whether they ever admit it or not.” So why are comps putting so much pressure on men to step up in head-ship? It does put a lot of unnecessary pressure on men.

    “You can complain about him and criticize him for his mistake.You can pray for wisdom to know the right time and right way to talk to him about it. Or you can let it go and continue believing in the man you married.”

    Or….you can talk things out. Why are comps so afraid to talk about the perceptions that they bring into the relationship? Why are egos so fragile? If they’re really married to be together, then they need to learn how to work together. \

    Shesh…Relationships are already difficult. They just pile on more and more to make it even more difficult.

    Like

  86. Back to my ending question….Is it reasonable to ask the church to view people as people instead of solely in categories?

    This book is written from a comp perspective, specifically from people who learned under and worked directly with John Piper. Piper advocates for preaching comp doctrine on a regular basis from the pulpit. I would venture to guess that most of that preaching deals around marriage. Is it any wonder that singles might feel left out of the conversation?

    Like

  87. Is it reasonable to ask the church to view people as people instead of solely in categories?

    I would ask that of all of society actually. People are unique, peculiar folks. Sometimes we have things in common like station in life and sometimes it is interests or personality. You shouldn’t divide people unnecessarily. I think a mix of options is best!

    Like

  88. My best church experiences were when adults and children, married, and singles mixed. I didn’t believe in the artificial separations in the church and usually took my kids to all types of meetings. In one board meeting there was an older woman crocheting. My daughter ( who was 7 at the time) was fascinated by it and later asked me if the woman would teach her. They had a great time–an hour once a week for about seven months. I paid the woman so she got something and 20 years later my daughter can crochet anything! At the same church there was a older single lady who made sure my kids with allergies had food they could eat at the potluck. There was also a single who had divorced an abusive husband. I had her teach some preschool stuff to my daughter. We took food to the sick– and it didn’t matter whether they were married. I would love it if we did away with Sunday school and started getting to know and love each other.

    Like

  89. Lea and Irene,
    In particular, the last two comments here……Alleluia and Amen! Praise the Lord here for the wise counsel from both of you!

    Lea, “I think a mix of options is best.”
    The Body of Christ is a living organism with individuals functioning differently, as the Body has various organs to make it function properly, so does the Ekklesia of Christ, and it should be honored and celebrated as such! In the churches that I have attended in the past, if one of the Body chooses to bring a meal to the sick in their home, the so called ‘leaders (?)’ get all bent out of shape for not being under their committee rule, labeling you as ‘rebellious.’ Must have a lord it over narc in order to serve Jesus Christ, evidently.

    Irene, “I would love it if we did away with Sunday school and started getting to know and love each other.”

    I love what you said! Amen sister! This would mean that we would actually have to lower ourselves and work at getting to know and love one another for the unique individuals our LORD made us to be, instead of herding the sheep into one pen and assuming they all have the same gifts. It would mean that we could freely exhibit and serve Jesus, using our God given gifts in serving one another, instead of having leadership tell us who to be (in their eyes), and what to do (according to their I know it best ways.) This is precisely why so many of the “least of these” are neglected, ignored, and shunned within churches. How can this be? It is because the pastor, his leadership, and the important people (usually those with wealth that are catered too as they ‘give more money to the cause of the church system, so they must be coddled and lifted up) decide who is valuable within their religious organization.

    Following my surgery, when I needed care the most, it was the unchurched believers in Jesus Christ that visited, delivered meals, sent cards, and called via the phone to encourage and pray with me. Thus, I was shown by our LORD, the true Body of Jesus Christ has no walls, and God the Holy Spirit, is still moving and working amongst His people. I love our LORD’s lowly servants/sheep!

    Very complimentary to the Body of Christ I might add! Smile!

    Like

  90. Daisy, I’m sorry to hear you are going through a rough patch right now. I, too, have missed your posts lately. I feel like you have a gift of cutting right through to the underlying issues and a way of expressing your thoughts that is at once assertive but also kind and respectful towards others. You really think things through and research them. I’ve been blessed by your comments so many times. Hope things are soon going better for you.

    Liked by 1 person

  91. Daisy, I echo everyone’s response in that I have missed you too! I wish you the best and encourage you to do what you need to take care of yourself. It has been great “seeing” you again!

    Liked by 1 person

  92. I got to thinking about the various replies on this post and it sounds to me like the church is not meeting anyone’s needs all that well. Singles feel excluded. Married couples with kids are doing everything they’re told is “right” but are overwhelmed and exhausted. Sick and old people are set aside and forgotten. Battered women have no one to turn to. Families who lose a loved one find themselves alone in their grief. I’ve heard these things over and over. I have experienced some myself. When my kids were babies, I had a difficult birth and no one reached out to help me, to bring a meal or watch my older kids, and in fact I was shamed because I wouldn’t push myself to teach vacation Bible school that summer. Same thing happened when my sister died. I was really ill with an auto-immune disease one year and I found myself forgotten. I realized then that church is for the strong, especially outgoing, energetic people, who can do a lot for the church. I felt like as soon as I wasn’t of use, they just stepped over my body and went on without me.

    Church is very demanding of us, of our time, our energy, our loyalty. But very often, when times are tough, they are not there for us, right when we need them. It’s a sobering realization when it unexpectedly happens to you. It made me start wondering what is the church for? And if we’re not caring for each other, where is all our energy going and is it really going to good use? Sometimes I wonder if we put a whole lot of energy into stuff that doesn’t really make much difference in the long run. I don’t know.

    Like

  93. Shy, I don’t think church can solve all these problems and relationship issues for people. But, they can certainly do a better job not contributing to them!!! Where they can do better ministering to people who do need that help, they should at least try. So many just throw up their hands.

    Like

  94. “The God-given burden our husbands have for shepherding the entire family is a heavy one, whether they ever admit it or not.”

    That sounds sooo much like Animal Farm. The pigs choose to get a double portion of the grain. They claim that they really hate grain, but they need the energy the grain provides to be able to think properly and make wise decisions for the farm. It’s really a “sacrifice” for the better good.

    Something like, “Honey, you know I really hate sex, but in order to survive the heavy burden of shepherding this family wisely, I need to be able to relieve my stress so I can remain calm when I’m making godly decisions! It’s really a huge sacrifice on my part.”

    Orwell was such a genius!

    Liked by 2 people

  95. Pingback: Review of Children’s Book “God’s Design” – The Church and Learning About Things We Already Know | Spiritual Sounding Board

  96. Pingback: Review of Children’s Book “God’s Design” – Get to Work! and Is This the End? | Spiritual Sounding Board

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s