Book Review Series, Children Desiring God, Christian Marriage, Complementarianism, Desiring God, Doctrine as Idol, Egalitarianism, Extra-Biblical Nonsense, Gender Roles, God's Design for the Family, Uncategorized, Women and the Church

“God’s Design” – Rebellion, a.k.a. It’s All Her Fault!

God’s Design, Headship, Complementarianism, Biblical Gender Roles, The Fall

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Adam & Eve
Who started this whole mess?

-by Kathi

This series is a review of God’s Design, a children’s book which teaches children about complementarity. For an introduction of the book, click here. All of the titles below are chapters in the book.

Today, children, we are going to learn about how man and woman rebelled against God’s design. Spoiler alert!…We’ll talk about one more than the other.

book
My lunch breaks at work left me yearning for comfort food, red wine and dark chocolate.

Rebellion Against God’s Design

This is where Satan enters the picture to trick the man to turn away from God. But, does Satan go to man first? No. He goes straight to the woman. Honestly, I’m surprised that Satan doesn’t receive much more credit than this. With all of the articles on Desiring God’s site about Satan and spiritual warfare, I was certain that Satan would be given much more of a platform. But, no, we’re left with this:

When Eve took the fruit and ate it, she was saying no to the authority of God in her life. She believed that life would be better for her if she did whatever she wanted to do. She rejected the headship of God over her, and also the headship of her husband, by taking the lead and doing what her heart told her to do. She took the lead and led both herself and Adam into sin.

The account goes like this: (Genesis 3:6) “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” Is it a fair conclusion by the authors that Eve took the lead and followed her heart? I can see how one might come to this conclusion by reading into the text. But, it isn’t good textual scholarship, especially when dealing with a Jewish text.

As far as Adam is concerned, his main problem was that he decided to join Eve in her sin. Adam did not maintain his God-given design to protect and lead Eve.

In the end, the authors could have focused this chapter mainly on how sin entered the world. Instead, they focused on how Adam and Eve decided to go against God’s order by not following their roles.

Continuing Rebellion in Man

There really isn’t much to say about this chapter, except that it annoys the you know what out of me. There are 10 paragraphs: three cover what happens to man as a result of his rebellion, and one covers what happens to the serpent. That leaves six, yes, SIX paragraphs that are dedicated to woman’s punishment. Isn’t this a chapter about man?

About the only thing talked about in terms of man is that now he would have to work hard when he doesn’t want to, and instead of serving as the head of the family, he will want his wife to take the lead. Seriously. That’s it.

I’ll leave this section short by including one of the follow-up questions to the chapter:

“Besides passivity, what other type of sin can men fall into because of the power of sin now at work in our hearts? (See Genesis 3:16.) What does it mean for a husband to ‘rule’ over a wife in a ‘domineering’ way? How is this a distortion of God’s good design for men and women?”

Continuing Rebellion in Woman

Do we really need this chapter? Haven’t we already covered how woman is the cause of all the evil in the world? Sigh…let’s move on…

The authors provide a great rhyming mnemonic device to help us remember what happened to woman when she sinned in the garden. Really, the book says:

You can remember this if you memorize these rhyming words: pain, reign, disdain, and in vain. Repeat these rhyming words and try to memorize them to remember this true story.

What, no clever, catchy memory trick for Adam passive aggressively letting Eve start the whole process of getting kicked out of the garden?

The authors reference Genesis 3:16 (ESV) for our fun learning activity: “To the woman he said, ‘I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'” Notice that this book was written before the new change to this verse which will now read: “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

Back to our memory trick:

pain = Childbirth

reign = Woman will want to be in control of her husband. Betty Friedan is brought up as an example of the dreaded f-word (quietly whispers, feminist). This books seems to be targeted to young elementary age children. Do they need Betty Friedan slammed down their throat at this age?

disdain = The feminists! Again! Especially those who complain about being led by men. Oh, and women’s rebellion has brought so much sadness to the world. Feminists have brought abortion, blaming men for their problems and leaving their husbands, as well as not believing in submitting to men or wanting their protection or leadership (note: men and not husbands).

in vain = Nothing good has come of women being in rebellion.

I am getting the sense that this entire book is meant to teach little girls their place in the Christian home and church. Whenever the authors mention anything about men the text inevitably leads back to the design or problem of women. Nothing good is going to come of this book the longer that it is in my possession.

The final activity in this chapter is: “As a family, take part in a prolife activity or do something to support prolife efforts.”

I wholeheartedly say, “Yes!” Take part in prolife activities! Go to a nursing home and regularly visit an elderly person who doesn’t have family living near by. Take in a young pregnant woman who needs a safe home. Volunteer at school for kids who need extra tutoring. Support organizations such as Doctors Without Borders or Medical Teams International who are fighting in war-torn areas to save lives. Visit people in prison. There are so many “prolife” activities that parents can get their kids involved in.

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If you would like to read prior reviews on God’s Design, here are links in the order of the book chapters:

Know Thyself, Creature

Headship, Helper, and an Answer We Already Knew

387 thoughts on ““God’s Design” – Rebellion, a.k.a. It’s All Her Fault!”

  1. I said Seems to be a consensus now that Junia was female, although not with absolute certainty which implies it is not impossible for the person named to have been male – if Junias is the correct reading and refers to an abbreviated Latin name – not impossible for someone in the church at Rome.

    Even those who disagree with Grudem on ESS don’t think he has gone outside the boundaries of evangelical orthodoxy, the frequent accusation of heresy is jumping the gun. He might be wrong, but it is a very obscure point of doctrine. I’ve read Grudem’s reasons for ESS, and don’t have an opinion on them – but I have never seen anyone who glibly accuses him of heresy list his points and systematically dismantle them, (though no doubt google would find someone if you look hard enough).

    Egalitarians who change ‘head’ to ‘source’ could be accused of making Christ a created being and be called heretics as a result. It can all get a bit silly. I have no doubt as to what the real reason for called Grudem a heretic is.

    Like

  2. KAS,

    You touched on a really big issue in the church.

    Imagine spending the day at the beach with your family. As everyone is having a great time, suddenly someone in the water screams for help. You look over to the lifeguard tower and see five lifeguards in a fistfight over who gets to jump in the water and rescue the person.

    That’s the problem in the church today.

    The heart of God grieves as the spiritual needs of multitudes are neglected because church leadership is too busy arguing over who is the greatest or as you said
    “making up rules” for limiting how women can serve in ministry. Meanwhile, Jesus told us to pray that God would send more laborers to the harvest and God has gifted many women to minister to hurting people, so who do you think is trying to cut off half the body of Christ from ministry? God or the devil?

    When Jesus gave us the Great Commission—He said to go forth “teaching” these things with NO restriction on who did the teaching.

    Then in 2Timothy 2:2 the Apostle Paul said to choose “faithful people”
    (men AND WOMEN) to “teach others also.”

    In 1Cor 14:26 Paul wrote that when the whole church comes together,
    EVERYONE (both men AND WOMEN) have a teaching for the assembly.

    So after opening the door for women to teach, and honoring the work of women in church leadership (Junia and Phoebe and others), how could Paul suddenly change his mind in 1Tim 2:12?

    Leland Wilshire wrote a fascinating book called Insight into Two Biblical Passages where he traced the history of Bible translation of 1Tim 2:12 to show how
    “usurp authority” is a BLOOPER IN TRANSLATION. That Paul was actually forbidding the teaching of false doctrine—not trying to keep women from using their God given giftings.

    I agree with you that doctrine can’t be based on only one verse.

    There’s ONE HUNDRED verses in the Bible about women speaking up. Don’t get me started on that!

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  3. which implies it is not impossible for the person named to have been male

    Did you ever hear the med school thing about looking for zebras when you should be looking for horses?

    ‘it is not impossible’ is not a great standard.

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  4. “said Seems to be a consensus now that Junia was female, although not with absolute certainty which implies it is not impossible for the person named to have been male – if Junias is the correct reading and refers to an abbreviated Latin name – not impossible for someone in the church at Rome.”

    Consensus? As if this was a huge debate historically? Who else besides Epiphanus , historically, insisted Junia was male?

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  5. “Even those who disagree with Grudem on ESS don’t think he has gone outside the boundaries of evangelical orthodoxy, the frequent accusation of heresy is jumping the gun.”

    Lol! Like Mohler….

    In other news, self described brilliant theologians, such as Al Mohler, have declared Grudem not outside the boundaries of evangelical orthodoxy for his Eternal Subordinayion of the Son doctrinal systematic theology. However, Mohler suggested in recent years that Traditional Southern Bpatists are skating close to the heresy of semi Pelagiaism in their Trad Statement developed to contrast Calvinism. He declared that they must be “marginalized”.

    Grudem refused to respond to inquiries as to which person of the Trinity the Holy Spirit was subordinate.

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  6. “Did you ever hear the med school thing about looking for zebras when you should be looking for horses?

    ‘it is not impossible’ is not a great standard.”

    Lol. Same standard used to declare Sapphira was only being a good comp wife.

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  7. “Leland Wilshire wrote a fascinating book called Insight into Two Biblical Passages where he traced the history of Bible translation of 1Tim 2:12 to show how
    “usurp authority” is a BLOOPER IN TRANSLATION. That Paul was actually forbidding the teaching of false doctrine—not trying to keep women from using their God given gifting”

    Bingo. Authenteo is only used once in NT. It’s a tough one. Calvin translated it as domineer but it has an even more sinister connotation of “compelling with lies” if you search how it was used in secular Greek of the time. The book itself is about dealing with false teaching and for those deceived out of ignorance (like himself) Paul has great mercy. For those who deceive on purpose, he names names and gives warning. The temple cult backdrop of Diana, which was huge in Ephesus, explains the Eve and childbearing references. But many teach it as works salvation in a “role”.

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  8. “Egalitarians who change ‘head’ to ‘source’ could be accused of making Christ a created being and be called heretics as a result. It can all get a bit silly.”

    Huh?So……you are saying it means Christ was not at creation as in “Let US make human…” therefore is not the “source” for humans? And He is not the source for the Body of Christ, either?

    Your ESS slip is showing. You don’t even know it.

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  9. KAS wrote:

    Even those who disagree with Grudem on ESS don’t think he has gone outside the boundaries of evangelical orthodoxy…

    Later amended to:

    Even those evangelical theologians who write on the subject who disagree with Grudem on ESS…

    Ha! I see what you did there.

    So what are you saying? That no one here is qualified to label Grudem’s ESS nonsense as heresy, just because none of us are professional theologians? Why should we be unqualified simply because we aren’t like the men in this cartoon?

    http://nakedpastor.com/2016/02/the-separation-of-theology-from-everyday-life/

    I though we all had the Spirit of God to lead us into all truth.

    I have no doubt as to what the real reason for calling Grudem a heretic is.

    And yet, you didn’t say what (you think) that reason is.

    There’s a reason, and I’ll say it loud and clear. Unlike the jerks in the above-linked cartoon, we see the results of this lofty-sounding and esoteric foolishness. We see where it leads, and we know what it’s for. Grudem dreamed up this ESS nonsense for no other reason but to prop up his precious caste system, which conveniently puts him and his buddies at the very tippy-top. It’s so hopelessly transparent, it would be laughable — if its results weren’t so tragic.

    Gender comp is poison, KAS, whether it’s Grudem or Piper or their cronies pushing it. And ESS is the what they use to try and convince us that it’s not only nourishing, but necessary.

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  10. What I have said is that by letting rip, victims of abuse enable the perpetrators of abuse or those who cover for them or those who are fans of them to keep the rotten institutional system going, because they won’t listen.

    If they won’t listen, then the perpetrators of abuse and their allies can take a flying leap, for all I care. As Daisy said above, this blog isn’t for them. If they’re so committed to their rotten system that they can’t hear the wounded crying, then they can rot in it.

    And in case you think I’m being too harsh, I have a question for you, KAS: When Jesus denounced the Pharisees and scribes as hypocrites, and His disciples feared that He’d offended them, how did Jesus respond? (See Matthew 15 if you need a refresher.)

    I am very grateful to someone who said regarding my own experience of being on the wrong end of misused authority and rumour-mongering ‘it’s not who was right or wrong that will be remembered, but how you responded and behaved’.

    I’m sorry to hear that you’ve been abused in church, too, KAS. But your friend was wrong. When you were mistreated and lied about, you had every right to be angry and to show your anger.

    “It’s not who was right or wrong that will be remembered”? I’d like to ask your friend whether he was talking about God when he said that.

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  11. Some folks have been so deeply wounded by a church or system of theology that their reaction is to be deeply, deeply angry. They may stay angry for months or years. And some of them come to this blog wanting and needing to share their stories.

    There used to be one guy who posted here who regularly inserted obscene language into his posts – it was obvious he had deep hostility because he was in emotional pain.

    I was willing to put aside my personal discomfort of seeing the “F” word and other vulgar language every other sentence in this guy’s posts to hear the guy out.

    Daisy, this reminds me of a post I saw on Homeschoolers Anonymous some time ago. It was kind of a fable, in which an elephant steps on the foot of a mouse. While vaguely apologetic, the huge beast is shows more concern for the mouse’s harsh language than for its pain and suffering.

    Julie Anne linked to it in this post: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/06/05/elephants-and-sgas-everywhere-coming-to-terms-with-homeschoolings-pitfalls/

    I wonder if KAS would get anything out of reading that…

    Like

  12. victims of abuse enable the perpetrators of abuse

    Whoa!! Missed that one.

    Let’s all think through what THAT means for a second.

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  13. Serving kids in japan–‘complementiarism is poison’–that is food for thought. You might be right. I could prove it with my own life–abused by my christian father who still refers to himself as the king, married 30 years to an abuser chosen by my parents who constantly used the submission verses to his advantage, alienated from a daughter who married a Douglas Wilson follower–most of my problems in life came from this belief. And yet, it was my belief too. I want to be free, but I don’t want to compromise the truth.

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  14. KAS wrote:What I have said is that by letting rip, victims of abuse enable the perpetrators of abuse or those who cover for them or those who are fans of them to keep the rotten institutional system going, because they won’t listen.

    Serving kids: If they won’t listen, then the perpetrators of abuse and their allies can take a flying leap, for all I care.

    Here is what the guru followers like KAS don’t get. It’s not about convincing those who profit from the corruption– at all. They only understand caste system thinking. The gurus need continually pliant, easily influenced followers. And that can be a long term problem. That is where the war for truth resides. It’s not about changing the minds of charlatans who use Jesus Chris for ego and profit.

    If there is one thing that scares the charlatans is that people come to believe this:

    “I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”. 1 John 2

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  15. Irene,

    I’m sorry to hear about your daughter. Chances are that sooner or later she’s going to get so worn down from all that heavy burden theology that she will start to ask for help and realize that the person in her life who really cares about her the most is you.

    Also, if you get a chance—there’s a great book with a real balanced approach to the tough questions by J. Lee Grady called Ten Lies the Church Tells Women. It’ll give you a lot of Scripturally sound food for thought.

    Like

  16. Irene,

    Sorry if my previous comment didn’t quite come across right. What I meant to say is that I agree with you on how careful we have to be in handling Scripture and not “compromising the truth” as you pointed out.

    You were bringing up some really good points and I thought that maybe if you wanted to do some additional research on that then I could save you some time and effort in finding a place to start.

    Like

  17. Lydia

    Daisy, I apologize. I can see how my many comments look like disagreement when they really aren’t. The reason I I think an advocate is good is because I know the people we are talking about aren’t going to change soon. And they end up heaping more abuse and burden on people who don’t deserve it simply because they did not communicate in an approved way.
    The advocate can handle the arrows.

    It is more about protecting already vulnerable victims than trying to please the Pharisees. I should have been more clear.

    Oh, no worries.

    I was not angry at you. In one of my last posts above, where I was quoting part of what you said, I was not angry at you – I was using your remarks to riff off to discuss some of my thoughts.

    The other day, I thought maybe you were angry at me in a few posts which I found confusing or surprising, but I guess I mis-read your posts.

    I also do not hate Amos, but I was frustrated by one or more of Amos’ posts above, and I think some of that frustration came through in my response to Amos above. Amos is an okay guy, I was just disagreeing with him to an extent.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Serving Kids in Japan said,

    Daisy, this reminds me of a post I saw on Homeschoolers Anonymous some time ago. It was kind of a fable, in which an elephant steps on the foot of a mouse. While vaguely apologetic, the huge beast is shows more concern for the mouse’s harsh language than for its pain and suffering.

    Julie Anne linked to it in this post: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/06/05/elephants-and-sgas-everywhere-coming-to-terms-with-homeschoolings-pitfalls/

    I wonder if KAS would get anything out of reading that…

    Good points.

    I do wonder about people who refuse to give someone who is hurting a fair or thorough hearing just because they don’t like the demeanor or language in which the person is expressing his or her pain.

    Like

  19. Irene said,

    And yet, it was my belief too. I want to be free, but I don’t want to compromise the truth.

    I think you said you are no longer complementarian?

    I used to be complementarian but am not one any longer, as of several years ago.

    My parents were totally into traditional gender roles, and my Mom especially believed men were more suited to be in leadership positions (even in the secular world), and she believed in the “husband is head of the household” stuff.

    It can take quite some time to unlearn all that, and everything associated with it (my mother confused being a traditional, godly, biblical woman with being a doormat and letting people walk all over her and take advantage of her, and she raised me to be that way as well).

    Like

  20. “I was not angry at you. In one of my last posts above, where I was quoting part of what you said, I was not angry at you – I was using your remarks to riff off to discuss some of my thoughts.”

    I do that all the time as if it is a running convo I am adding to. I forget to explain that and it can come off wrong. Efficiency can breed miscommunication. :o)

    Like

  21. Hi Daisy – Thanks for the response and saying…

    “I also do not hate Amos,
    but I was frustrated by one or more of Amos’ posts…”
    xxxxxxxx

    I also do NOT hate Daisy, 🙂
    but I am sill frustrated by one or more of CBE’s posts…

    And how CBE, in their ”Title” and on their “About” page,”
    will call them self ”Biblical”…

    And also say… “Scripture is our authoritative guide for faith…”

    When neither statement is accurate or true. My… My… Tsk…Tsk…

    CBE, will NOT post a comment about where they are NOT Biblical.
    Where CBE is Missing, Ignoring, or Twisting,
    What IS in the Bible. What actually IS Biblical.

    And CBE, will admit, ”In Private,” that what was written in the comment was Truth. That today’s pastor/leader/reverends, and what they get paid to do, does NOT exist in the Scripture…

    The Scripture, that CBE proclaims… (Falsely)
    is their “authoritative guide for faith, life, and practice.” (NOT)

    Mission Statement
    CBE exists to promote biblical justice…

    Core Values
    1 – Scripture is our authoritative guide for faith, life, and practice.
    xxxxxxxx

    CBE was willing to talk ”In Private.” But NOT on the blog, saying…
    “While what you have to say is no doubt true in an ideal world…”

    We continued with private e-mails, 15 over a 4 -5 week period…
    But, CBE refused to talk on their blog where folks could see, and debate.

    Go figure – CBE, Refusing to post something that is TRUE.
    Just to protect Their Agenda.

    Women, and men, having Titles that do NOT exist in the Bible.
    For one of His Disciples.

    All of a sudden, being ”Biblical” is NOT important…
    Having, ”Scripture as our authoritative guide…” is NOT important…
    Dam the TRUTH full speed ahead…

    Hmmm? Where have I expereinced this before?

    Oh Yeah – In my experience…
    CBE, Has Achieved Equality with
    Comps, Ultra- Authoritarians, TGC, Acts 29, and the CBMW, I’ve debated.

    When they, CBE, TGC, Acts 29, and CBMW…
    Do NOT like to answer the questions asked…

    They ban you, delete you, or moderate you for eternity. 😉

    That’s my story and I’m sticken with it.

    Like

  22. And Daisey

    I just have to dis-agree when you say…
    “I think that’s a bizarre and skewed way of looking at things.”

    When I write…

    “CBE, is like someone complaining…

    What’s with all these “God Fathers?”
    Being the “Head” of crime families?

    Women should be able to “Lead” crime families too.”

    I’m-a-thinkin…
    That is an excellent, excellent, analogy.

    One of the finest works of Christian Literary Achievments describing
    “Today’s Corrupt Religious System,” in a very succinct and accurate way. 🙂

    Like

  23. Amos,

    You’re making a LOT of accusations without providing any supporting evidence.

    I know you’ve read Romans 14 many times. Shouldn’t there be plenty of room in the body of Christ for a difference of opinion on non-essential doctrines like the debate over free will vs predestination?

    Why are you so upset that other believers don’t submit to your opinions?

    Are you saying that believing in Complementarianism is necessary for salvation?

    Liked by 1 person

  24. Dear Avid Reader,

    I don’t think Amos is advocating for gender comp. As far as I understand him, he’s opposed to the whole system of titled, professional clergy prevalent in today’s organized churches. Apparently, Amos’ complaint with the CBE isn’t that they’re calling for equality between men and women, but that they want women to be considered for clergy positions. He’s saying that anyone who wants to be a pastor or minister, whether male or female, wants something that isn’t biblical.

    I’m not sure I agree with him on this — it would require me to condemn a female relative of mine, one who seems to be doing amazing work within the church and the community.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Serving the Lord in Japan:

    If the Christian religious system is spiritual harlotry and you know someone within the framework who is doing good to others… does her ‘good work’ legitimise the idolatrous system?

    Perhaps she might like to lose the title (which alone belongs to Christ) and conduct her ‘ministry’ without having the appearance of being a lowly religious servant (piety of the worst kind especially if you’re salaried to do so) IMHO

    Brian Houston has a nice smile and makes millions of his followers happy. Joel Osteen too.

    Does it mean I shouldn’t cry “charlatan”?

    Amos gets it. So few do.

    He has a view that most ‘believers’ have never thought of nor do they want to. Itching ears abound.

    Those who seek the truth eventually wake up to the horrifying realisation that the Christian industrial complex has no foundation in Jesus Christ.

    Its foundation is sand and we see landslides every month in every direction.

    Jesus didn’t call us to become meeting attendees. He called us to walk by faith and do good in secret.

    It’s so plain to see but so many prefer the religious clubs.

    I just don’t get it

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Salty, I get it, and many others on this forum too (like Lydia, for example; I don’t mean to speak on her behalf, but her points are so on target and worth considering/studying). The “Christian industrial complex” has its fake foundations in men and men’s absurd, anti-biblical ideas and power-hungry minds. Jesus, the biblical Jesus, does not feature in their plans. And it’s all about power and control in the Christian Industrial complex; nothing else; oh, maybe humiliation and abuse, of course.

    “Jesus didn’t call us to become meeting attendees. He called us to walk by faith and do good in secret.
    It’s so plain to see but so many prefer the religious clubs.”

    Yes, you’re right, Salty. It was a French “philosopher,” the greatest heretic of them all, who believed (his interpretation, of course) that the Reformed Church (his church, obviously) was the true Church and there was no salvation outside of it. Oh, for goodness’ sake! Cry me a bloomin’ ocean!

    Many believe belonging to the religious clubs is a ticket to heaven, regardless of what the heck goes on in there, where as Jesus says, “Follow me.”

    Liked by 1 person

  27. I am a guilt free done, btw, it took years to drop the guilt for not attending. As for Serving Kids female relative who is doing amazing work in church & community that is awesome. Methinks God wants to work inside of the institution, Lord knows the church needs people on the inside who serve the least. I am not at all rah rah go to church girl, I just think the Holy Spirit is not limited & will work through any willing vessel.

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  28. gm370,

    Yes. Christians tend to leave out the “individual” aspect of Christianity and make it only about being in a group. This is extremely dangerous because our salvation is personal and individual, first and foremost. No matter what others think or do. We come to the “body” as individual believers. It should be a place to grow in wisdom. Not drink perpetual milk. However, Listening to pastors past and present, one would think Jesus’ free gift only works if only you are sitting in a church building or in the approved tribe. It is ridiculous. And this thinking is in both Protestantism and Catholicism.

    The biggest problem we have as believers is most institutions that bear the Name are as corrupt to the core as Judas. But as my mom said shortly before she died, “just remember the church is a mission field”. If we go with that in mind, it changes our attitude in how we approach them and we focus on walking with those struggling. (That is also called, “pastoring”. hee hee )

    OTOH, some of us are simply “done” with the illusion and pretend. And that is ok, too. It is between you and the Holy Spirit. No mere human has a right to dictate that to us.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. Gm370,
    My point is that “church” membership does not save. Yes, I am also guilt-free for not attending the “institution” any longer, having been called all sorts, from “harlot” to “hellbound.”
    Of course, God works everywhere; however, not all churches have Christ as its chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2: 20-22) and as such those places are best avoided for the spiritual health of all concerned, and it’s in those places, in particular, where all things unholy crawl out from under the pews and bite and scar you (this site is living proof of that).
    Are their solid churches left? Surely, but read the fine print twice… Remember, the body of believers (wherever, whomever they are) make up the “church.”
    The last time I checked, there were more women missionaries than men. That’s just great; God does use the willing vessels, gm370.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. Serving Kids in Japan,

    You’ve made some really great points—I’ve been enjoying reading your posts.

    Maybe we can agree to disagree on this.

    There’s a deeper issue here.

    Why is the church so quick to allow ministers with serious moral failings back into the pulpit when there are thousands of other qualified ministers who could fill that pulpit instead?

    Like

  31. Hi Avid Reader
    Been enjoying your comments…
    You write @ OCTOBER 15, 2016 @ 12:06 PM…

    “Amos – You’re making a LOT of accusations
    without providing any supporting evidence.”

    Help – Which accusations would you like “supporting evidence” for?
    And, what would qualify as “supporting evidence?”

    xxxxxx

    You ask…
    “Why are you so upset that other believers don’t submit to your opinions?”

    I’m NOT upest at all. I was “ordained,” in “leaderhip.”
    I left “The Corrupt Religious System,” over 20 years ago, early 90’s.
    Through much pain, tears, and spiritual Abuse.

    And have been warning believers ever since. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Some of my best friends thought I was kinda nutty back then…
    Had to walk a long, dark, lonely path for many years, NO internet then…
    Nice to hear from others today, Salty, Boston Lady, who can See”

    But some of those friends, 5, 10, 15, years later…
    Will contact me and say ”Now I see.”
    Some See, and still remain in “The System.” And some are ”Done”
    And they know, His Disciples know, there is only
    The “ONE” Shepherd. The “ONE” Leader. The “ONE” Teacher.
    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    I’m just plantin seeds… What Jesus does with them is up to Jesus.

    Ephesians 5:11
    And have no fellowship with
    the unfruitful works of darkness,
    but rather reprove them.

    I’m-a-thinkin, ”Today’s Corrupt Religious System”
    The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation…
    That the IRS calls church…

    Has proven to be, unfruitful works of darkness.

    xxxxxxxx

    “Are you saying that believing in Complementarianism
    is necessary for salvation?”

    NOPE – My Spell checker can NOT even spell CompmtAAGGGUUHHH…

    xxxxxxxx

    I’m for Biblical Equlity

    For WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Called Out Ones, His Body…
    His Kings and Priests, His Servants, His sons, His Ambassordors..
    His Disciples…

    NO separation of brethren caused by Titles
    NO elevation of brethren caused by Titles
    NO control and manipulation caused by Titles

    Like

  32. Serving Kids in Japan

    Thanks for the back-up. And saying…
    “He’s saying that anyone who wants to be a pastor or minister,
    whether male or female,
    wants something that isn’t biblical.

    Well, that’s close. 🙂 And “You’re Cute Too.” 🙂

    Seems “minister,” in the Bible, is the Greek for “Servant.”
    Strongs #1249 diakonos: a servant, minister.

    I would change what you wrote only a little…
    “anyone who wants to be called pastor, have the Title* pastor,
    *whether male or female,

    wants something that isn’t biblical.

    Of course i cudda missed that… In the Bible, can anyone name
    One of His Disciples who called themself pastor? Or shepherd?
    One of His Disciples who took the Title pastor? Or shepherd?

    And, Serving Kids, Julie Anne, and many others here… Out of love…
    pastor His flock, shepherd His flock, feed, tend, and care for His flock…
    And, do NOT need the Title shepherd, or to be called shepherd.**
    They ALL, just do the right thing and Love one another.

    “Today’s Corrupt Religious System” has turned “minister,”a “servant,”
    Into a Paid, Postion, Promoting, the Patriarchal, Prominence, of Pastors.

    As a believer, ALL are called to be ministers, “Servants.” ALL.
    “Servant” – is IN-clusive. Available to ALL.
    “Leader” – is EX-clusive. Available to only a Special Few.

    And NOT one of His Disciples called them self ”Leader.”
    And NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple ”Leader.”

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Lydia,
    Amazing! I’ve held that belief for the longest time; that the mission field is IN the “church.” Your mom was wise.

    Like

  34. Salty

    Thanks for the back-up @ OCTOBER 16, 2016 @ 2:01 AM

    Like lots of what you have to say…

    “Those who seek the truth eventually wake up
    to the horrifying realisation that
    the Christian industrial complex
    has ”NO foundation in Jesus Christ.”

    Its foundation is sand
    and we see landslides every month in every direction.

    ”Jesus didn’t call us to become meeting attendees.” 🙂 🙂 🙂
    He called us to walk by faith and do good in secret.

    It’s so plain to see but so many prefer the religious clubs.
    Yes – BUT – Those who seek the truth eventually wake up

    xxxxxx

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  35. Avid Reader,

    Maybe we can agree to disagree on this.

    It seems we’ll have to. I’m not ready to throw in the towel on the organized church, or on meeting with my fellow believers there. I realize I’m one of the lucky ones, but I’ve been blessed so often there, it’s hard for me to believe that the whole thing is simply corrupt and irredeemable. In so many of the places I’ve worshipped, I just know the Spirit is there, at work among so many, including pastors.

    I don’t put my faith in the organized church, but I still believe in it. It’s been a blessing to me, especially in Japan, where Christians still form no more than 2 percent of the population.

    (Julie Anne, I’m sorry if I’ve derailed the thread. It seems we’ve drifted from the original topic.)

    Liked by 1 person

  36. Amos,

    Thank you for the clarification. I apologize if my previous comment came across as harsh or unloving.

    Now you asked for a public debate so we can have one if you want.

    First of all, I agree with you that there’s too much emphasis on titles and positions in the church and not enough real ministry getting done. Yes, there’s corruption in the church but its a huge leap to say that all 501(c)3s are “unfruitful works of darkness.”

    That’s a really big accusation.

    That logic is saying that because SOME ministries are corrupt THEREFORE ALL ministries are corrupt.

    Nope. People like Pastor Jeff Crippen are doing a wonderful work for the Lord, ministering to so many hurting people who have been run over by institutional religion. Saying that Pastor Jeff can’t have a salary and that his congregation shouldn’t tithe because his church is an “unfruitful works of darkness” is really going
    out on thin ice.

    There is plenty of Scriptural grounds for salaries for missionaries, pastors and people doing full time ministry. 1Cor 9 and 1Timothy 5 which also reminds us to confront church leadership living in blatant sin. That’s what I love about Julie Anne and Pastor Jeff and Barbara Roberts and many others who are willing to stand up for the truth in the face of incredible opposition.

    Now you said that

    “CBE, is like someone complaining…

    What’s with all these “God Fathers?”
    Being the “Head” of crime families?

    Women should be able to “Lead” crime families too.”

    That’s another accusation that all ministry is nothing more than “crime families?” Whoa!

    Pull your Strong’s Concordance off the shelf and look at all the NT verses about serving in ministry. The Apostle Paul NEVER limited the ministry to only men. Case in point—2Timothy 2:2 said to trust these things to “faithful people” who will teach them. Bible translators added male pronouns. That’s NOT what the Apostle Paul wrote!

    Now I can hear some pain in your voice—I’m guessing that you’ve been deeply wounded by the church. I can understand that you need time to heal right now. If you haven’t already, maybe you could blog about your experiences and your feelings on the Bible.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. Serving Kids In Japan,

    Seems we agree on a lot and hardly disagree on anything! Sorry for any misunderstanding.

    I agree with you that there’s a lot of good churches out there with good pastors and loving people. That’s why I wanted to address some of what Amos was saying about the whole church being an “unfruitful work of darkness.” NOPE!

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Avid Reader

    Seems the term “The Corrupt Religious System”
    might be a little over the top for you. 🙂

    It took quite a few years before making such a strong statement.
    And, I’m calling ”The System Corrupt,” NOT the people, His Sheep.
    I hope that helps a little.

    Just because there are many good… Err… nay, very good, people in “The Corrupt Religious System” today, doing many good things, yes, even God things, does NOT make The System” any less ”Corrupt.”

    Like

  39. Avid Reader

    These are some of the definitions I’ve found for “Corrupt.”

    Corrupt – Dictionary

    1- a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.

    2- in a state of decay; rotten or putrid.

    3- debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
    …..Especially ones that prevent proper understanding.

    xxxxxxxx

    Jesus, first challenged my beliefs about “The System” with ”The Traditions” that I had been taught and believed as Truth. But, when I researched the scriptures for my self, I found the Bible saying something different. From, Who are The Lost in the Bible? To, Did any of His Disciples call them self pastor? Or leader? Or reverend? In the Bible? What I saw caused me to question those in Power…

    Oooops… Warning… Warning… Questioning “leadership” The Powerful
    Will be tough on your Spiritual Health. 🙂

    When someones Power, Profit, and Prestige is challenged…
    Things can get ugly pretty quick…

    Jesus, warned His Disciples about…
    The Commandments of Men…
    The Doctrines of Men…
    The Traditions of Men…

    Mark 7:13
    KJV – Making the word of God of “None Effect” through your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “Nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
    ASV – Making “Void” the word of God by your tradition…

    Just think about that – Tradition can Make Void the word of God. 😦

    Found out, much of what I believed was…
    The Commandments of Men. The Doctrines of Men. The Traditions of Men…
    And NOT The Bible.

    You sound like one of those who seek Truth.

    Have you ever asked Jesus?
    What are My Tradtions? That Make Void The Word of God?
    Do I have any Tradtions that “Nullify” The Word of God?

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds have caused them to “go astray,”

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as “sheep going astray;”
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  40. Amos,

    That’s a great point. You’re right that tradition is what makes God’s Word have no effect in our lives.

    The most deeply rooted tradition in the church is misogyny which has become such a deeply rooted tree that it crosses virtually all denominational lines.

    Jesus said that every plant which hadn’t been planted by God must be pulled up by the roots. Matthew 15:13.

    That’s why this blog and Julie Anne’s work is so important because she’s pulling up the stuff that doesn’t belong in the church.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. Avid Reader

    WE, His Sheep, are warned many times to NOT to trust in man.

    Jeremiah 17:5 KJV
    …Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm…

    Psalm 118:8-9 KJV
    It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
    It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.

    WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Disciples, are warned about…
    1- False apostles. ————— 2 Cor 11:13, Rev 2:2,
    2- Many false prophets. —– 1 John 4:1, Mrk 13:22, Mat 7:15, Mat 24:11, 24,
    3- False teachers. ————— 2 Pet 2:1,
    4- False brethren. ————– Gal 2:4,
    5- False Christ’s (false anointed ones). — Mat 24:5, Mat 24:24, Mark 13:22,
    6- Deceitful workers. ———- 2 Cor 11:13,
    7- Evil workers. —————- Phil 3:2,

    WOW – Lots of bumps and potholes on this path to Jesus… 😉

    I had put my trust in Mere Fallible Humans… Ouch!!! 😦

    BUT – The Spiritual Abuse had a benefit…

    I had NO place else to GO – But to GO to Jesus…

    And Jesus is the Best – Yes?

    Liked by 1 person

  42. Avid Reader

    And – Many times WE, His Sheep, His Disciples…
    Are encouraged to learn directly from God. Jesus. Spirit.
    NO middle man… 🙂 ”…ye need NOT that any man teach you:” 🙂

    John 6:45 KJV
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    John 14:26 KJV
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…

    Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
    Out of heaven he made thee to hear His voice,
    that He might instruct thee:

    Psalms 32:8 KJV
    I will instruct thee and teach thee
    in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

    1 John 2:26-27 KJV
    These things have I written unto you
    concerning them that seduce you.
    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
    and ye need NOT that any man teach you:
    but as the same anointing teacheth you of ALL things,
    and is truth, and is no lie…

    It does take a step of faith to believe and trust…

    That Jesus, ”can lead you.”
    That Jesus, “can speak to you.”
    That Jesus, ”can teach you truth.”

    Romans 8:14 KJV
    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
    they are the sons of God.

    NOT those who are led by Mere Fallible Humans. 😉

    John 10:27 KJV
    My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and I know them, and they – Follow Me.

    Jesus, to His Disciples, over and over again, said, Follow Me. Jesus.

    Jesus, NEVER asked, taught, His Disciples to follow a Hu-man.
    Male or Female…

    Liked by 2 people

  43. (Avid Reader stands and applauds Amos’ post on 10-16-16 at 11:50AM.)

    Amos,

    I’m loving what you just wrote!

    You’re right.

    NOT ONE VERSE IN THE BIBLE TELLS US TO TRUST IN MAN.

    There’s a LOT of verses warning us NOT to trust people.

    That’s the root problem in Complementarian theology as well—no matter how they try to slice it—the core of Comp theology requires you to trust in the flesh. It takes away your ability to make personal choices in your own life and requires you to trust someone else to make your personal choices for you—when that person is imperfect and will drop the ball sooner or later! Then they ignore all the verses in the Bible warning us NOT to trust people and try to blame God for people’s bad choices.

    Think about how Prov 25:19 would apply to marriage:
    “Confidence in an unfaithful man in time of trouble is like a broken tooth, and a foot out of joint.”

    Comp theology also won’t allow women to be lead by the Holy Spirit. It requires them to hear the Holy Spirit through the “priest” of the home—which puts a mediator between you and God.

    Just for the record—Jesus is the ONLY mediator between us and God. (1Tim 2:5) And God has made BOTH men and women to be spiritual priests and KINGS.
    (Rev 1:6)

    Amos, I totally agree with you that the BEST THING IS JESUS!

    In sorting through all the Christian doctrine that I had been taught growing up in church—what helped me the most was when I took some time to stop reading everything and ONLY read the words of Christ in red. That’s when the lightbulb went on in my head and I was able to sort out the rest.

    Like

  44. Avid Reader

    Yes – Me Too…
    “…what helped me the most was when I took some time
    to stop reading everything and ONLY read the words of Christ in red.
    That’s when the lightbulb went on in my head
    and I was able to sort out the rest.”

    Yes – I stopped even reading books by others…
    Their Strange B. S. had me going down one path after another…
    I had to go back to Jesus, to just to the 4 Gospels – read them over and over…
    Also just reading the words of Jesus, in the “Red.”

    After hangin-out-wit-Jesus for awhile…
    You begin to understand Paul, the epistles, in a different light…

    The Light of the World…
    The “ONE” Shepherd. The “ONE” Teacher. The “ONE” Leader…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}

    Liked by 1 person

  45. Avid Reader – and ALL

    Thanks for the great conversation…

    Gotta run. That’s it for today.

    Then they that feared the LORD
    spake often one to another:
    and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
    and a book of remembrance was written before him
    for them that feared the LORD,
    and that thought upon his name.
    Malachi 3:16 KJV

    Like

  46. “I had to go back to Jesus, to just to the 4 Gospels – read them over and over…”

    I can relate to what Amos is saying about scripture. At one point, because scripture had been so twisted everywhere I turned, I decided to only read the Gospels over and over for 3 years. No sermons or other books. I would read looking not to just what Jesus said but what He did or did not do.

    It was incredibly enlightening because the exercise was strictly to understand the Incarnation time. After that, I read up on historical context then more on Hebrew thought. because most are taught to understand scripture from post enlightenment thinking and Greek era philosophy. And the Hebrew view of God, in general, is vastly different from the Greek pagan philosophy views of Augustine, Luther and Calvin. The God we cannot know.

    Paul, we all know gets horribly twisted. So we must approach Paul with a Jesus filter.

    One starts to wonder what seminaries are for. It is certainly not education. Indoctrination?

    Like

  47. Lydia,
    Indoctrination, especially the Greek pagan philosophy kind. I promised myself I would not say Reformed or Calvinist, but what the heck.

    Like

  48. Lydia, I am doing the same now.

    When you see certain behaviour that stems from taking portions of Paul ‘literally’ and employ a bit of brain power (common sense) you start asking questions that won’t make you popular amongst Christians.

    And yet I love Jesus and my Father.

    😊 So we pray “Lord, lead and guide us by your Spirit into truth. Open our eyes to see the needs of those you love. Give us discernment to spot the wolves”.

    And he does.

    Some of Jesus’ parables blow me away. And instill a very healthy fear of the Lord.

    Like

  49. Serving Kids in Japan – I don’t put my faith in the organized church, but I still believe in it.

    I think this needs saying every so often. I’ve had a run in with the institutional church a couple of times (for which thanks for your kind words) but I would never write it all off as nothing but corrupt. That’s too easy. Even say in the Catholic church in America about 1 in 20 have been found guilty of abusing children, which means 19 out of 20, the overwhelming majority, have not. I’ve no idea if this percentage is reflected in non-Catholic denominations or not. The atheist accusation ‘they are all kiddy-fildlers’ isn’t true, though it goes without saying that what has gone on, and the covering up even more so, has left a stain on the reputation of the church that it deserves, let alone the damage done to people on the receiving end of it and the eternal danger the perpetrators are in.

    I’m sure the overwhelming majority of evangelical churches are not abusive, though they may make mistakes and seriously get it wrong at times – I’ve experienced this, I doubt if anyone won’t if they stay around long enough. I think I have read one too many accounts recently of just how bad everything amongst evangelicals, and even more so fundamentalists, but the author it turns out is well on the way to apostacy in some wishy-washy denomination with barely any convictions at all – usually proclaiming a God of love and nothing else. You cannot claim Jesus is Lord and opt out permanently from some kind of involvment with some kind of church (tempting as it may be, and I’ve had long breaks from “church” myself!), keeping anyone who might have some say in your life at arm’s length.

    Like

  50. “You cannot claim Jesus is Lord and opt out permanently from some kind of involvment with some kind of church (tempting as it may be, and I’ve had long breaks from “church” myself!), keeping anyone who might have some say in your life at arm’s length.”

    What a strange response after everything you said prior. Basically what I am reading from you goes like this: yes there is corruption but no church is perfect. That thinking has its own problems but to proclaim that one cannot opt out of the institutional church and claim Jesus as Lord is no different from what the state church tyrants from Popes to Calvin to the Puritans– taught.

    Might we at least define? Three or more? And who are these who have “say” in our lives? Care to elaborate? One saint I seek for such wisdom is in her 90’s and female. Not qualified in most evangelical circles. But has walked the talk.

    The irony is that the “Dones”I am meeting live more like the real thing than what I see in churches. Anecdotal, of course, but works for me.

    Like

  51. Lydia Here is what the guru followers like KAS don’t get. It’s not about convincing those who profit from the corruption– at all. .. The gurus need continually pliant, easily influenced followers. And that can be a long term problem. That is where the war for truth resides.

    KAS does indeed get it, and the very quotation of my post you made actually said that!

    You can bring the ediface down by de-funding it, and you do that by persuading the followers to stop following. The Heavy Shepherds, whose doctrine seemed set in concrete, eventually abandonned this teaching, Derek Prince as early as 1986, so there is always hope.

    PS: long tradition of Junia being Junias and male – 9th century, the 1545 Luther bible but not AV right through to the ASV/RSV/NASB translations (Greet Androni’cus and Ju’nias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles). But as AvidReader says, it is not life and death and pales into insignificance in the face of the great commission and many other issues in church life.

    Like

  52. KAS,

    How do you define the word ‘church’?

    What is Christ’s Ekklesia?

    “You cannot claim Jesus is Lord and opt out permanently from some kind of involvment with some kind of church (tempting as it may be, and I’ve had long breaks from “church” myself!), keeping anyone who might have some say in your life at arm’s length.”

    Really?

    So your understanding of the word church is:

    A) a religious social club facilitated by a self proclaimed ‘Pastor”?
    B) a religious meeting for ‘worship’ and biscuit time
    C) Jesus’ people who meet anywhere

    How many people need to be present for you to be satisfied that we are ‘doing church right?’

    Do I need to pay someone to give me wise counsel?

    Really?

    I give plenty of counsel out to my younger friends for free.

    Call me “Elder” if it makes you feel more ‘biblical’.

    The modern day ‘church’ is nothing Iike the first century assembly.

    You are deceived.

    Like

  53. “PS: long tradition of Junia being Junias and male – 9th century, the 1545 Luther bible but not AV right through to the ASV/RSV/NASB translations (Greet Androni’cus and Ju’nias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles). ”

    9th Century? Care to elaborate your 9th Century source?

    Like

  54. Salty,

    Institutionalized church has a specific non tax status in the US and are exempt from typical non profit org status reporting and laws such as employment. . I am not sure about non CofE churches in England. Perhaps KAS could elaborate on what he means when he uses the word, church?

    Like

  55. Salty – how can you ask me for my defintion of church, and before I have given it, say I am deceived?

    I would exclude the social club. A ‘church’ where the gospel hasn’t been preached for over a century, and the congregation are merely embalming memories, or are into occultic ‘spirituality’ and mysticism as a substitute for the gospel.

    A meeting for worship is part of authentic christianity, but buscuits – I hope this isn’t bribery to get people to attend an otherwise rather pointless meeting. (My sister commented not long ago on the trend of having to have food at church gatherings.)

    A gathering of people who have believed in Jesus is the simplest definition of church. What I would not do is say just because such a church meets in a historic building with a vicar or pastor or more formal worship and structures it is not authentic Christianty. It depends on whether the people meeting are real believers as opposed to just carrying on the traditions of their parents or even grandparents. Is the bible being taught? The problem with the institutional church is that it can continue going through the motions long after Ichabod has in effect been written on the noticeboard outside it.

    Like

  56. Incidentally, the word ‘gospel’ seems to be misused or misappropriated by some big name teachers, so I would define it using Paul’s lovely descripion in Romans 3

    the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe

    It’s essence is forgiveness, not secondary doctrines or various interpretations that are sometimes said to be ‘gospel’.

    Like

  57. Lydia – Daniel Wallace discusses Junia, and the accents that determine whether the copyist thought a man or woman was meant were added in the 9th century. The majority back then went for male.

    Like

  58. Salty,

    I used to think the same thing about the Apostle Paul—that he really hated women—until I found out that he had actually been arguing for women’s rights when he wrote those famous words that have been twisted to silence women.

    The Bible translators couldn’t handle how pro-women Paul was so they changed the text to fit their personal bias.

    There’s a huge double standard where Bible translators will translate a word one way in verses that apply to men and then change the definition in verses that apply to women.

    They’re still doing it today—you all saw what the ESV translators did to Gen 3:16.

    Maybe they don’t know that double standards are an abomination to God.
    (Prov 20:10)

    Like

  59. Don’t get the wrong idea, KAS. Just because I said something you like doesn’t mean I’m on your side here.

    You cannot claim Jesus is Lord and opt out permanently from some kind of involvment with some kind of church (tempting as it may be…)

    I cannot agree with this. Are you saying that those who are “done” with church but not with Jesus are simply liars, and cannot really be saved? I find that arrogant in the extreme.

    From what I can tell of their comments, the “dones” are not “tempted” (as you say) to stay away from the organized church. They stay away because they must, for their own safety, sanity or well-being. There are some who are so traumatized by their experiences, they can’t bear to enter even a healthy church, or to read the Bible. Those trappings are simply wrapped up too closely with their trauma. I imagine many of those sexually abused in church, or abused women who were ignored and marginalized by pastors, are in that boat, and I refuse to condemn them for their pain. I hope that you won’t either.

    …keeping anyone who might have some say in your life at arm’s length.

    How do you know that’s what the “dones” are doing? What makes you so certain that they aren’t seeking wisdom and counsel from parents, or grandparents, or spiritually mature friends? Or are you insisting that the only ones allowed to “have some say” are pastors? I see no basis for that notion at all in scripture.

    Like

  60. “Jesus filter”

    That’s great!

    Lydia—LOVE YOUR THOUGHTS!!!

    Been enjoying all of your posts—I hope you keep asking all these great questions!
    🙂

    Like

  61. There’s a huge double standard where Bible translators will translate a word one way in verses that apply to men and then change the definition in verses that apply to women.

    Truth.

    Or are you insisting that the only ones allowed to “have some say” are pastors?

    He sounds like on he’s on the ‘official church leaders=authority to dictate your life’ kick. I know I would trust godly friends who actually care about me over random elders who seem not to. (not that I think that of the people at my church, but I would treat their advice in the same way I would treat any advice, I would evaluate it on its merits).

    Like

  62. I asked for the 9th century reference. Now you are moving the goal posts, again. And worse, you are now claiming the “earliest”” manuscript copies we have for Romans 16 include accent marks on name. Not true. They are capitalized. I would certainly go further than Wallace who is not even convinced from what I can see.

    I looked up Wallace and he and Burer have quite a few scholars refuting them. I have not checked the date of their body if work on this.

    Like

  63. Lydia,

    You’re right on the goalposts getting moved.

    Just for the record—there’s no evidence that Junia was a man. There’s just some people who can’t accept that God calls women to be Apostles. 🙂

    Don’t get me started on how they also can’t accept how God raised Deborah into the highest position of civil authority in Israel. Look at how theologians try to diminish what God did through Deborah and you’ll see them doing the same to Huldah, Junia, Priscilla, Phoebe, Chloe, etc.

    There’s plenty of Scriptural foundation for God calling women into all sorts of leadership roles.

    Like

  64. Good job, Kathi! In the newspaper business we used to call articles successful when they generated readers’ letters to the editor. You have inspired a great interactive conservation with a review on a kids’ book!

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Let’s see what Jesus said in John 4:

    “an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    If you can find a “church” where it’s possible to do that, you are fortunate. I have not been able to in the city I currently live in. I find fellowship with other believers outside of the so-called “church.”

    If you think you “have to” go to church to be held accountable, guilted or disciplined, you are not understanding the purpose of meeting together or the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Or human nature, for that matter.

    “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8

    When the organized institution that we have nicknamed “church” (as opposed to the body of all who truly believe in Christ) falls away from the truth of God, the wind blows elsewhere.

    “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” John 10:4-5

    When the sincere people who truly love Christ don’t want to come to your building and play your game anymore, I think it’s time the leaders examine themselves, not those who are leaving.

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  66. Irene – I admit that I am somewhat surprised by the great response this little book has received. That being said, I’m also pleased that so many are taking issue with this indoctrination among our youngest.

    I know that I tend not to respond as much when the comments generate in the higher numbers, but please know that I’ve read every single response. Continue the discussion!

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  67. KAS, whose faith is it?

    “22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

    It’s Christ who saves us. We simply believe it.

    The NIV changes the OF to IN.

    Kinda matters

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  68. KAS,

    “A gathering of people who have believed in Jesus is the simplest definition of church”

    II believe in Jesus (he IS Lord, I don’t make him Lord) and I meet believers often and we talk about spiritual matters and enjoy fellowship together.

    Does this satisfy you?

    What’s missing?

    A sermon?

    Baptismal pool?

    A pew?

    Lectern?

    Dedicated ‘House of Worship’?

    Yeah.

    I’ll still to simple home fellowship.

    Less BS (and it’s cheaper).

    The religious clubs are no different than temple worship (so called).

    Shy1 gets it. So do others here.

    Let go of the institution KAS.

    There’s only One Shepherd/Pastor/Poimen.

    King Jesus.

    “But he’s not King yet”

    BS!

    Liked by 1 person

  69. Salty The NIV changes the OF to IN.

    Subjective genitive versus objective genitive! You could argue it either way going by what I have read. I did put ‘of’ in the margin of my own NT where this expression is used as a reminder. I don’t think there is any hidden agenda here amongst more modern versions.

    If you opt for ‘of’ despite it being clumsy English, you are in the company of KJV onlyists, and Calvinists who see no human cooperation involved in the salvation process at all. That of course is irrelevant to the grammar issue, but I do find it a little off-putting!

    Regarding your other point, when he ascended on high Christ gave gifts, including that some should be pastors and/or teachers. So without denying direct fellowship of individual believers with God without any ‘priestly intermediary’, I’m unhappy with the do-it-yourself variety of fellowship, especially when made up of those who can’t get on with anybody else.

    (If you’ve been kicked in the spiritual teeth by the institutional ‘church’, then such fellowship can be essential while you get over it. In that regard, I’m fully in favour.)

    Some of Christ’s lordship comes to us through others, both members of the body and ‘elders’ (even if the name isn’t used). So an authentic Christian church needs some kind of oversight. Beneficial oversight, as appointed by the Holy Spirit.

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  70. Lydia – I’m not that bothered about Junia. I’m only making the point that Junias as a man’s name goes back a long way, not that this must be the right interpretation.

    What I don’t like is egalitarians jumping to the dogmatic conclusion from this one grammatically difficult verse that there were a whole class of women Apostles. No-one is in a position to be too dogmatic about this verse either way. This wouldn’t be the only time too much is made of too little.

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  71. KAS, you wrote:

    “I’m unhappy with the do-it-yourself variety of fellowship, especially when made up of those who can’t get on with anybody else”.

    Me thinks you are (or were) a salaried religious professionals. Why so unhappy? Annoyed that we follow Jesus without the capacity to control us?

    “DIY fellowship”???

    Compared to what type of fellowship, KAS?

    As a believer am I unqualified to invite believers to my own house for a meal, prayer and fellowship?

    Is God unable or unwilling to give those gifts you mention to us for mutual benefit?

    You seem to suggest that perhaps I’m not attending a ‘church building’ because I can’t get along with anyone else.

    Or perhaps I woke up to the truth that men with worldly degrees who call themselves titles only meant for Jesus are charlatans.

    Hirelings.

    As I’ve said before… God gives the gifts. He didn’t have ‘church buildings’ back then and he doesn’t need them now.

    Please tell me which of the 40 000+ denominations is the correct one? Haha

    Liked by 2 people

  72. KAS,

    I agree with many of your points but I DON’T like what you just did to Salty.

    You said,

    “I’m unhappy with the do-it-yourself variety of fellowship, especially when made up of those who can’t get on with anybody else.” Then you told Salty to just “get over it.”

    The reason why people are leaving the church in droves is NOT because they want “do-it-yourself” church or they “can’t get along with others.” It’s because people are getting run over by the freight train of legalism. They’re getting hurt by spiritual abuse while the church turns a blind eye to the problem.

    There comes a time when wounded people have to stop the bleeding by getting alone with the Lord and just a few trusted friends. I appreciated how you mentioned that but it still feels like you’re not listening to what Salty was saying.

    I agree with you that God calls people to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc. Look at Eph 4:12-14 which says that the purpose of these roles is to SERVE the body of Christ—helping people spiritually mature,

    “Then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth.” (TLB)

    Look at Ezekiel 34 which describes the Pastor’s role is to
    1) Strengthen the weak
    2) Heal the sick
    3) BANDAGE THE HURT
    4) Bring back the ones that wandered away
    5) Look for the ones that were lost
    6) Feed the sheep

    It’s about SERVING the flock NOT RULING OVER THEM!

    JESUS FOBADE THAT! (Matt 20:25-27)

    Here’s the problem—what you said to Salty is something that we’ve all heard so often in church that its hard to recognize as SHEPERDING THEOLOGY!!!

    KAS wrote,

    “SOME of Christ’s LORDSHIP comes to us THROUGH OTHERS, both members of the body and ‘elders’ even if the name isn’t used.”

    That’s the Shepherding theology of “Delegated authority!!”

    Derek Prince—one of the original founders of the Shepherding movement said,

    “Wherever His (God’s) delegated authority touches our lives, he requires us to acknowledge and submit to it just as we would to Him in person.”
    (Damaged Disciples p. 89)

    Bob Mumford, another founder who later repented of it wrote,

    “Christ puts Himself one step behind the man of God and His father is one step behind Him.” (The Problem of Doing Your Own Thing p. 61)

    “Your higher power may not be doing it right……but there is not a thing you can do about it but submit.” (Problem p. 67)

    The way this doctrine was applied to real life was described by Ron Burks who was on the ground floor of the Shepherding movement for many years.

    He wrote,

    “For many of us after a period of years, this COVERING became a LID.”
    (Damaged Disciples p. 81)

    “Each time our wills and our pastor’s will crossed—it seemed like a chance for us to die to self.” (Damaged p. 92)

    “Complete submission to the will of man was considered a prerequisite to being discipled.” (p. 143)

    “By giving advice or direction, the leader exercised control over our lives….this unholy connection of control….is the moral, ethical and biblical equivalent of witchcraft.”
    (p. 145)

    I could go on all day about this but please understand this doctrine is DANGEROUS It needs to be identified and understood so that we escape the traps that are being set for God’s people.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. How funny that these comments seem to have gone full circle! I think at least some people here would say that you are right, Kas– they can’t get along with the people in the church because they were being abused, and sometimes specifically regarding the gender issue. You see, of course any problem belongs to one who questions authority, whether church leaders or abusive husbands. Sometimes I am embarrassed to even be with other Christians when nonbelievers can be more compassionate.

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  74. Some of Christ’s lordship comes to us through others, both members of the body and ‘elders’ (even if the name isn’t used). So an authentic Christian church needs some kind of oversight. Beneficial oversight, as appointed by the Holy Spirit.

    You have made quite an ambitious claim here, where is the support for any of it?
    When did Christ ever assign some of his Lordship to any human being?
    What do you mean by “oversight”? A faithful steward looking over the church books or some person with egotistical leanings who imagines God has set him up to direct other peoples’ lives? They always imagine their “oversight” is “beneficial” lol.

    Matthew 18:20
    “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

    Liked by 1 person

  75. Avid Reader – thank you for your comments.

    In reverse order, may I clear a couple of things up? Firstly, I am absolutely against the shepherding error, together with its version of ‘discipleship’ and ‘covering’, where in essence a man replaces God. There is no post edit function and I wondered I might be misunderstood as advocating this by saying Christ’s lordship comes in part through others, but once it’s there it’s too late! This error, which had a little bit of truth in it taken to an appalling extreme did no end of damage.

    How do most people become Christians? Direct appeal from heaven? In most cases through personal ‘witnessing’ or conversations, acts of kindness, or hearing the gospel preached in a church gathering, or evangelistic campaign of some sort. God comes to a man through another man.

    Similarly, Jesus is the good shepherd, but he pastors us through the gifts he gave having ascended on high, and not just directly. Sometime a pastor will have to say things to us we don’t want to hear but that we need to, and my objection to DIY Christianity is when this is an attempt to avoid letting anyone else have any input into our lives.

    We all have the anointing of the Holy Spirit to teach us, but this does not negate the blessing of those gifted to be teachers in the church. (Gift here does not mean a degree in theology!)

    Secondly, I’ve been in the situation of enjoying fellowship with other believers on an informal basis whilst getting over the left boot of fellowship, so I know what it is like. I was not intending to say to Salty Go in peace, be warmed and filled as though people never need a break from “church”. There is a point though sooner or later where you need to move on from this – this will vary from person to person. I’m glad when someone said to me, at the right time, it’s time to move on, you can’t spend year after year licking your wounds. Again, the right time will vary from person to person.

    I helped lead a church a long time ago which consisted largely of people who had for one reason or another had to leave various churches, and who were not in blatant rebellion against legitimate leadership (the usual accusation), but weary of being hassled (or worse).

    When that church closed by merging with another under ‘apostolic’ direction, it was one bad experience too many for some, and they gave up altogether. If you believe that salvation is contingent on continuing in the faith, then this is a very dangerous situation to get into. God alone knows where they now stand. Some strains of modern Calvinism give imo a false assurance in this regard.

    I am still wary of authoritarian leadership, but have to balance these concerns with the command not to neglect to meet together.

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  76. Shy1, spot on.

    I was thinking this morning about this concept of ‘ministry’.

    I’ve come to see this word used as a means of elevating oneself to special servant status.

    Example:

    If I have a widow in my street and I take her shopping twice per week and open my door whenever she needs company, is this not genuine Christian service? Love in action. I don’t then talk about my good deed by referring to it as ‘My Ministry’. How cringeworthy is that? It’s hardly secret service for my Lord, is it?

    I’ve come to believe that it’s a sad state of affairs when believers need a million dollar facility in order to ‘serve’ others.

    Christian: if you do not show love to your neighbours outside of the Sunday club… I’d be asking the Lord to show me ways how.

    Our religion is entirely vain if we only ‘serve’ others in the framework of the Christian industrial complex.

    Jesus never spoke of such a thing.

    Whenever I meet believers who speak of their special ‘ministry’ I spew a little in my mouth.

    Remember our Lord spoke much about doing things for the glory of men as opposed to doing them in secret for God to see.

    Liked by 2 people

  77. KAS, you don’t get it.

    “I’m glad when someone said to me, at the right time, it’s time to move on, you can’t spend year after year licking your wounds. Again, the right time will vary from person to person.”

    The ‘church’ is not a PLACE.

    You cannot GO to Jesus’ church. You ARE a member of it. The church can meet ANYWHERE.

    It is not a PLACE or CLUB or ORGANISATION.

    We are on different pages!

    I have no wounds to lick so don’t assume I’m crying myself to sleep over your ‘church’.

    I’m dead set for calling the ‘church’ harlotry of the worst kind.

    I’m a John 4 worshipper. Spirit and Truth.

    Don’t need some guru or narcissistic leader to help me walk with Jesus.

    Every believer younger than me is my responsibility to guide to God. I don’t call myself Pastor or a Evangelist yet I ‘do’ those things.

    I guide and ‘oversee’ but I don’t need a facility or placard on an office door nor a degree from a Seminary.

    You don’t get it KAS.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. Shy1 I’ll define oversight using the words of the apostle Peter:

    So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed.

    Tend the flock of God that is your charge, exercising the oversight not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.

    And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.

    There is the chief Shepherd, and elders he works through, and the way they should do this. The death knell to a professional clergy elite with an office! The attitude of the younger to such elders is, like it or not, one of submission. It’s a shame when this is made needlessly complicated by authoritarians on one side and absolute personal autonomy on the other.

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  79. Salty Me thinks you are (or were) a salaried religious professionals. Why so unhappy? Annoyed that we follow Jesus without the capacity to control us?

    That is not a very nice accusation to make, based as it is on guesswork. It is prejudice, and is wrong to boot!

    I have no wounds to lick so don’t assume I’m crying myself to sleep over your ‘church’.

    I’m pleased to hear it. I was describing my own experience, not accusing you of anything. But you can’t tell me that for everyone seeking healing from abuse there are not others nursing grievances.

    I do wonder why you can ‘guide and oversee’ younger believers to God, yet don’t need anyone guiding you. Let me put it like this: if God is blessing you and others in whatever you are doing, that is fine by me, I’ve seen plenty of blessing amongst those outside the official ‘denominational’ system, and a marked absence of it sometimes within the system, the Sunday club.

    I’ve also seen this go wrong where actually being out of the system is due to rebellion, an unwillingness to respect a pastoral ministry from others. It does happen, and God never seems to bless it.

    You know where you stand on this, I have no desire to get into an argument over it.

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  80. “You’re right on the goalposts getting moved.”

    Avid reader, been down this road for years now with KAS types. It can easily descend into “my experts are smarter than your experts”. :o)

    Of course the Junia issue was important to KAS no matter how many times his deflective response insists otherwise. The trajectory of his comments prove it.

    It was unusual, I grant, for a female to be a “sent one” in the 1st Century. But it was also scandalous for married or single women to travel around with men not their husbands or kin. But we see that as a matter of fact in Luke 8.

    I think it is healthy for women to dive into study on the passages twisted and used to limit their spiritual gifts and function in the Body. The only thing I see KAS doing is trying to plant seemingly innocuous poisonous seeds. Quite typical.

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  81. “What I don’t like is egalitarians jumping to the dogmatic conclusion from this one grammatically difficult verse that there were a whole class of women Apostles. ”

    More moving of goal posts. If there is an exception, there is no strict rule. That is the patriarchs problem with Deborah.

    It boils down to this: there is absolutely no prohibition to women leading or teaching men in the Old Testament. Yet, we are to believe there is a new law in the New Covenant prohibiting women from teaching or Leading Men.

    It can be a simple matter of taking what is descriptive and making it prescriptive. Patriarchal rule is a result of sin. It was not Gods design. Mutuality is God’s design.

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  82. “I’m unhappy with the do-it-yourself variety of fellowship, especially when made up of those who can’t get on with anybody else”.”

    Being a follower of Christ is DIY unless you subscribe to some firm of Calvin’s determinism.

    If the Body of Christ is not a Gathering of individual Believers then what is it? Are there some believers who have a super special anointing that some cannot have?

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  83. “I do wonder why you can ‘guide and oversee’ younger believers to God, yet don’t need anyone guiding you. Let me put it like this: if God is blessing you and others in whatever you are doing, that is fine by me, I’ve seen plenty of blessing amongst those outside the official ‘denominational’ system, and a marked absence of it sometimes within the system, the Sunday club.

    I’ve also seen this go wrong where actually being out of the system is due to rebellion, an unwillingness to respect a pastoral ministry from others. It does happen, and God never seems to bless it.”

    Thank you KAS for this example of your “set up” tactic.

    So, who (which human) gets to decide which is which in your above example? Who is just being rebellious? And why would it matter? Title? Ordination? (Wink)

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  84. “I am still wary of authoritarian leadership, but have to balance these concerns with the command not to neglect to meet together.”

    So you find it useful to balance sin (Do not Lord it over, Diotrephes, etc) with what you see as a “command” for all believers? Are you thinking the book of Hebrews when you say “command”?

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  85. “It’s a shame when this is made needlessly complicated by authoritarians on one side and absolute personal autonomy on the other.”

    KAS your slip is showing again. You managed to sneak in “personal autonomy”as a sin! I realize you tried to qualify it with “absolute” but I am not fooled. Nothing scares the Religious elite more than “personal autonomy”. Whether those religious elite are Muslim, Mormon and sadly, Christian.

    Not sure how the Holy Spirit operates except in individuals. That is certainly Scary for the elite who depend on followers.

    Liked by 1 person

  86. KAS, you still have your religious blinders on.

    I have plenty of elders in my life who provide counsel and rebuke.

    I married a second gen Anabaptist so his family is full of believers.

    As you’re aware, the word Elder simply means ‘aged person’.

    Because we’re not trying to re-enact the letters of Paul “you can be Timothy and I can be Paul” I’m left to the understanding that God gives wisdom to godly OLDER/ELDER believers to provide OVERSIGHT.

    Because Timothy isn’t around to ‘appoint’ these elders I suppose it’s up to my husband and I! ?

    Or is it up to you?

    Or Doug Phillips?

    Please tell me whose job it is to appoint the elders?

    Maybe it’s God’s job?

    Whatever made you think I was lacking the oversight of godly elders?

    Because I don’t attend a religious club for 1 hour per Sunday and pay my fees???

    You.don’t.get.it.

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  87. Salty, you are being incredibly defensive considering I am not having a go at you!

    The Holy Spirit appoints elders, in the sense of giving the necessary gifts, and the church can recognise them when they meet the qualifications the apostle Paul lists. I think there is a bit more structure to it than just older and younger believers.

    When you said Don’t need some guru or narcissistic leader to help me walk with Jesus in addition to some things you said earlier that gave me the impression you either think all leadership is corrupt/authoritarian or you were another of the ‘just Jesus and me’ believers – or both.

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  88. KAS,

    It sounds like you’re in some type of leadership position where you affect many lives so it’s absolutely necessary that we analyze these things that we’ve all been taught in church.

    I agree with you that if we can all share the HEART of God with people in our lives, many people would come to the Lord. That the work of the ministry is done by people. That structure is a good thing.

    Once again, I agree with you that we all need gentle, loving correction from time to time. I’ve been involved in church all my life, serving faithfully and receiving teaching and correction from church leadership, but that NEVER requires surrendering personal autonomy (your ability to make personal choices).

    KAS wrote,
    “It’s a shame when this is made NEEDLESSLY COMPLICATED by authoritarians on one side and absolute personal autonomy on the other.”

    Lydia gets it—KAS just labeled making your own choices as a sin!

    That NEEDLESS COMPLICATION is the veto power Jesus gave us of being able to say “yes” and “no” over our own lives. (Matt 5:37)

    Then Jesus taught us this principle—not to allow anyone to “take” our life from us “but I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” (John 10:18 NASB)

    That authority is “personal autonomy.”

    KAS—I’m surprised that you continue to insist that there’s “a little bit of truth” in the theory of delegated authority that says, “Christ’s lordship comes in part through others.”

    Think about any human being standing up in church and saying, “I am the LORDSHIP of Jesus Christ.” That’s idolatry!

    Shy1 totally gets it
    “When did Christ ever assign some of his Lordship to any human being?”

    THAT’S SHEPHERDING THEOLOGY!!!!

    Like we already discussed—the pastor’s role is to feed and help the flock heal. No one would rebel against that type of leadership.

    How many more Shepherding quotes do I need to post to show how Shepherding theology is still infiltrating the church?

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  89. It boils down to this: there is absolutely no prohibition to women leading or teaching men in the Old Testament.

    It is in the law, though not always very obvious without careful reading. Fortunately two of the apostles explain this, and where it is to be found in the OT, and with enough clarity for us to know what we should and shouldn’t be doing.

    As for those who are in rebellion, I am refering to those who, if asked whether they will obey Heb 13 or 1 Pet 5, will say no, it’s not for today. Who try to undermine a pastor at every turn. Who won’t submit in any shape or form, and I’ve come across believers who almost say in as many words ‘no-one tells me what to do’. It’s a mistake in rejecting heavy shepherding to reject all shepherding.

    I’ve seen more than once believers who had probably legitiimately left a church, but with this attitude of autonomy, only to find a new fellowship they form or join blow up, with all the damage this can do.

    When people complain about the institutional church or evangelical establishment and how it has treated them, it’s sometime difficult to discern whether they really have been badly treated, or whether their attitude has in whole or in part brought their troubles on themselves.

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  90. KAS

    You write @ OCTOBER 19, 2016 @ 7:29 AM…
    “…the church can recognize them when they
    meet the qualifications the apostle Paul lists.”
    HaHaHaHa…. Never happens… Most do NOT know the qualifications.

    You also write @ OCTOBER 17, 2016 @ 7:41 AM…
    “I’ve had a run in with the institutional church…
    but I would never write it all off ** as nothing but **”corrupt.”

    This is one of the main reasons I now see The Whole Religious System…
    who says, “the Bible is their standard,” as Corrupt.

    1 – In my experience, Most, Pastor/Elder/Overseers do NOT 
    meet the qualifications in the Bible, found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?

    KAS – Do you know any pastor/elder/overseers
    That meet those 17+, very tuff, Qualifications in 1 Tim3, and Titus?

    NOPE – Today’s Religious System is Corrupt.

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

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  91. KAS

    Here is a look at just three tuff qualifications for elder/overseer from Titus. Of over 17+. Seems, most who call themselves “pastor/elder” tend to “Ignore,” or “Twist,” these qualifications so they can maintain their “Titles,” pastor/leader/reverend, that comes with Power, Profit, Prestige.

    1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy.

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “must be” blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

    1 – Must Be
    Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    This must be is the same Greek word. – You must be born again. Jn 3:7
    Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?

    1 – Blameless
    Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    2 – Just
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.

    3 – Holy
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation.

    Now that’s three tough qualifications for elder/overseers. Yes?

    How many pastor/elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications, can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be an pastor/leader/overseer? And, if they can see themself as blameless? Is that pride? And no longer without fault? 😉

    If WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Body…
    Take seriously the many tough Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9…

    The number of Biblically Qualified, pastor/leader/reverends, is quite small.
    😉

    But, will UN-qualified, pastor/leader/reverends, “Remove Themselves?”
    And be a good example to the flock?

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

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  92. t’s sometime difficult to discern whether they really have been badly treated

    The problem is that you think it’s your job to make this determination. It isn’t.

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  93. not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.

    You quote this but miss it. Elders are supposed to be setting good examples, not dictating. Then it is up to us to follow that good example. If its’ a bad example (witness, all the ‘ex-pastors’ who left because of ‘moral failure’ – there are probably loads of ex or current elders with the same problems) we aren’t supposed to follow it or them. Easy peasy.

    Which means, when I see elders setting a good example, I follow them. Personal autonomy, still. Authority doesn’t enter in.

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  94. t’s sometime difficult to discern whether they really have been badly treated

    The problem is that you think it’s your job to make this determination. It isn’t.”

    Bingo! And it even goes further than that. We need to be asking what should be the normal in the Body. It’s a big question that takes us on quite the journey. We should start with Christ. What was He like? Then realize that is what God is like. And He was not exactly embracing the institutional religious leaders of His time. In fact, the opposite.

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  95. AvidReader It sounds like you’re in some type of leadership position where you affect many lives

    I need to take a break, I’ll try to keep this short. I’m not in any type of leadership, and haven’t regularly attended a church and been in ‘official’ membership for several years. Does that surprise you?!

    (My reason for leaving the local just about evangelical church was unhappiness with the leadership (and I don’t believe in undermining them), and a weakness there on standing firm on sexual immorality amongst other things, coupled with an over-emphasis on the love of God. Many super people though.)

    My conscience has been increasingly uneasy with the instruction not to neglect to meet together despite on and off attendance at various churches. (It would help if they didn’t close due to re-deployment of most of the members!) Starting to neglect so great a salvation through indifference, not intent. I hope this era has come to an end.

    As for the shepherding error, if there had been no truth in it whatsoever, it would have been all too obvious it was deception. I think it was in part an overreaction to an evangelicalism that had become too individualistic.

    I am, I might add, a great believer in Christian liberty, of conscience. This freedom does not override what God has told us to do or not do in the NT.

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  96. “As for those who are in rebellion, I am refering to those who, if asked whether they will obey Heb 13 or 1 Pet 5, will say no, it’s not for today. Who try to undermine a pastor at every turn. Who won’t submit in any shape or form, and I’ve come across believers who almost say in as many words ‘no-one tells me what to do’. It’s a mistake in rejecting heavy shepherding to reject all shepherding.”

    So where would a person be asked if they are “obeying” Hebrew 13 (admit it. You love vs 17 as translated, dontcha) 1 Peter 5?

    I can only think of authoritarian churches. What gets me is my parents generation in general, a typically church going generation, would have laughed in the face of someone who dared ask such a personal question on personal church going decisions. Where I come from pastors were part of the priesthood as paid employees. Not super special anointed authoritarians who took over the Holy Spirit function for others.

    Our society has changed in that regard in so many ways. Adults as perpetual children. We must have nanny church and government.

    We could get into the backdrop context of both books but it would most likely be a waste of time when one wants to use scripture as club for beatings and control.

    Liked by 1 person

  97. KAS

    Here’s another list of Qualifications most pastors do NOT know.

    Today, those who mis-appropreate the ”Title”
    pastor/elder/leader also “Ignore” and “Twist”
    These every day responsibilities of ALL His Disciples…

    Do you know any pastor/elder/leaders who teach and practice these?

    1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
    2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
    3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
    4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
    6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
    7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
    8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
    9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
    10 – NOT giving themselves “Flattering Titles?” Job 32:21-22 KJV

    11 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    11 – Humility – a modest, or low estimate of ones own importance.
    11 – Know many pastor/elders who are ”clothed with humility?”
    Having ”a modest, or low estimate of ones own importance.” HeeHee…

    In my experience, the number of “pastors,” Who actually teach, and practice these 11 – Who teach, and practice, “Submitting one to another” – Who teach, and practice, NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory. Who teach, and practice, NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles. Who are “Clothed with humility,” haveing “a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance,”

    Is Quite Small… 😉

    But moslty Non-Existant… 😉

    Like

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