Book Review Series, Children Desiring God, Christian Marriage, Complementarianism, Desiring God, Doctrine as Idol, Egalitarianism, Extra-Biblical Nonsense, Gender Roles, God's Design for the Family, Uncategorized, Women and the Church

“God’s Design” – Rebellion, a.k.a. It’s All Her Fault!

God’s Design, Headship, Complementarianism, Biblical Gender Roles, The Fall

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Adam & Eve
Who started this whole mess?

-by Kathi

This series is a review of God’s Design, a children’s book which teaches children about complementarity. For an introduction of the book, click here. All of the titles below are chapters in the book.

Today, children, we are going to learn about how man and woman rebelled against God’s design. Spoiler alert!…We’ll talk about one more than the other.

book
My lunch breaks at work left me yearning for comfort food, red wine and dark chocolate.

Rebellion Against God’s Design

This is where Satan enters the picture to trick the man to turn away from God. But, does Satan go to man first? No. He goes straight to the woman. Honestly, I’m surprised that Satan doesn’t receive much more credit than this. With all of the articles on Desiring God’s site about Satan and spiritual warfare, I was certain that Satan would be given much more of a platform. But, no, we’re left with this:

When Eve took the fruit and ate it, she was saying no to the authority of God in her life. She believed that life would be better for her if she did whatever she wanted to do. She rejected the headship of God over her, and also the headship of her husband, by taking the lead and doing what her heart told her to do. She took the lead and led both herself and Adam into sin.

The account goes like this: (Genesis 3:6) “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” Is it a fair conclusion by the authors that Eve took the lead and followed her heart? I can see how one might come to this conclusion by reading into the text. But, it isn’t good textual scholarship, especially when dealing with a Jewish text.

As far as Adam is concerned, his main problem was that he decided to join Eve in her sin. Adam did not maintain his God-given design to protect and lead Eve.

In the end, the authors could have focused this chapter mainly on how sin entered the world. Instead, they focused on how Adam and Eve decided to go against God’s order by not following their roles.

Continuing Rebellion in Man

There really isn’t much to say about this chapter, except that it annoys the you know what out of me. There are 10 paragraphs: three cover what happens to man as a result of his rebellion, and one covers what happens to the serpent. That leaves six, yes, SIX paragraphs that are dedicated to woman’s punishment. Isn’t this a chapter about man?

About the only thing talked about in terms of man is that now he would have to work hard when he doesn’t want to, and instead of serving as the head of the family, he will want his wife to take the lead. Seriously. That’s it.

I’ll leave this section short by including one of the follow-up questions to the chapter:

“Besides passivity, what other type of sin can men fall into because of the power of sin now at work in our hearts? (See Genesis 3:16.) What does it mean for a husband to ‘rule’ over a wife in a ‘domineering’ way? How is this a distortion of God’s good design for men and women?”

Continuing Rebellion in Woman

Do we really need this chapter? Haven’t we already covered how woman is the cause of all the evil in the world? Sigh…let’s move on…

The authors provide a great rhyming mnemonic device to help us remember what happened to woman when she sinned in the garden. Really, the book says:

You can remember this if you memorize these rhyming words: pain, reign, disdain, and in vain. Repeat these rhyming words and try to memorize them to remember this true story.

What, no clever, catchy memory trick for Adam passive aggressively letting Eve start the whole process of getting kicked out of the garden?

The authors reference Genesis 3:16 (ESV) for our fun learning activity: “To the woman he said, ‘I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'” Notice that this book was written before the new change to this verse which will now read: “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

Back to our memory trick:

pain = Childbirth

reign = Woman will want to be in control of her husband. Betty Friedan is brought up as an example of the dreaded f-word (quietly whispers, feminist). This books seems to be targeted to young elementary age children. Do they need Betty Friedan slammed down their throat at this age?

disdain = The feminists! Again! Especially those who complain about being led by men. Oh, and women’s rebellion has brought so much sadness to the world. Feminists have brought abortion, blaming men for their problems and leaving their husbands, as well as not believing in submitting to men or wanting their protection or leadership (note: men and not husbands).

in vain = Nothing good has come of women being in rebellion.

I am getting the sense that this entire book is meant to teach little girls their place in the Christian home and church. Whenever the authors mention anything about men the text inevitably leads back to the design or problem of women. Nothing good is going to come of this book the longer that it is in my possession.

The final activity in this chapter is: “As a family, take part in a prolife activity or do something to support prolife efforts.”

I wholeheartedly say, “Yes!” Take part in prolife activities! Go to a nursing home and regularly visit an elderly person who doesn’t have family living near by. Take in a young pregnant woman who needs a safe home. Volunteer at school for kids who need extra tutoring. Support organizations such as Doctors Without Borders or Medical Teams International who are fighting in war-torn areas to save lives. Visit people in prison. There are so many “prolife” activities that parents can get their kids involved in.

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If you would like to read prior reviews on God’s Design, here are links in the order of the book chapters:

Know Thyself, Creature

Headship, Helper, and an Answer We Already Knew

387 thoughts on ““God’s Design” – Rebellion, a.k.a. It’s All Her Fault!”

  1. It is good that the authors believe in God, and that he has said something to us about how family life should be structured. It’s good they want scripture to inform this rather than the television or Hollywood.

    Which means, there’s just enough sugar to entice people to swallow the poison. And what’s worse, to convince them to feed it to their kids.

    All the more so in view of the gender confusion in society at large all too often.

    What exactly do you mean by “gender confusion”? And how do you think the nonsense out of the CBMW is going to fix it?

    The vehemance of the oppostion to it does make me suspect other factors are at work not necessarily directly linked to what the book actually says.

    Yeah, such as the fact that many belonging to “the opposition” have actually experienced gender comp, and know first-hand that it’s nothing but poison. And poison shouldn’t be fed to anyone, let alone children.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Years ago heard a fasted/prayed up pastor do a message on Adam/Eve and whose fault it was! He blamed Adam and why, wow a first! Adam didn’t have to listen to Eve it was free will, free choice and Pastor taught God held Adam accountable period. If, Adam hadn’t participated/sin then how would it all have played out for the World? Here, I had always thought if Adam, said NO and here’s this Godly man laying out that God holding Adam accountable and the Man’s role vs. Woman’s. Tremendous message for marriage couples also (lording over or control/abuses rather than husbands loving their wives like Christ loved the church). Haven’t read comments (just article)!

    Like

  3. I’m starting to wonder if the real problem with this book is teaching children to show partiality when the Bible warned us,

    “Showing partiality is not good, because some people will turn on you even for a piece of bread.” Proverbs 28:21 (GW)

    What we see happening today in the church as a whole makes you wonder if the church leaders have forgotten this:

    “But if you treat one person as being more important than another, you are sinning. You are guilty of breaking God’s law.”
    James 2:9 (NCV)

    Like

  4. This is probably not the right place to ask this question…but has anyone had dealings this website?
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/
    It popped up OFTEN on my google search back with I was thrust into major confusion as to my role as a wife. Just wondering if the SSB has ever run any articles on him?? If I only knew then, what I know now, I wouldn’t have believed this bunch of bull that lead to my severe depression for 3 years. This stuff is really toxic to females, especially if you have an abusive spouse. Sorry, if I asked this in the wrong place. Remove it, if you need to.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. The worst thing about complentarians is that they seem to have a club you can only enter if you live life by their formula. If for some reason you don’t fit the expected role, they will isolate you. The Bible doesn’t support a formula. Instead it says to love your neighbor–something they aren’t doing when they isolate people.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Toiler,

    Wow, thanks for bringing that site to our attention. No, the site is not a good one at all. Just the opposite.
    The link below to that page should make it clear: STAY. AWAY. There are so many red flags it looks like a carnival, and its upfront “hedging” tactic, the Misogynist Strawman article it has posted, should tell you what the site is about; it is making excuses even before you read its stuff No, the site is off and reeks to high heaven..
    Toiler,please, read this article in particular and then please report back.

    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/how-to-discipline-your-wife/

    (Tell me what you think about the wife-spanking hint. WHAT is that?

    Like

  7. Toiler, go read his “about me” page. It’s really all you need to know. (Wink)

    He uses a pen name because…..are you ready? …..Christ hid himself from the Jews!

    . Bwahahaha. Just when you think you have heard it all.

    (Note to the twisters…I have no problem with anonymity. In fact, I encourage it. I just don’t equate it with “Christ hiding” from his own tribe of which He was Messiah. )

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Lydia, that site is from hell! Have you read my link to it on when to spank and how to discipline your wife? I smell redneck, or something.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. I have read many of the articles on that site. He’s sick. But I admit, back a few years ago when my church was pushing roles on us (they didn’t say this kind of thing, but they were definitely patriarchical), I kind of wondered if maybe I was just a really lost soul in the fact that it sounded like no way to live. If I was his wife, I would have probably killed myself. I wish I had a way to shut this man’s site down before it hurts anyone else. I really love SSB! Thankful for y’all. I’m new, and I’m a bit shy in commenting, but I’m reading much and building up some inner strength. Ultimately, God is slowly restoring my view of Him through people like you! ❤️

    Liked by 3 people

  10. @ Toiler
    Regarding the “Biblical Gender Roles” site you asked us about. It’s been linked to and discussed in Christian gender egalitarian groups many times.

    Supposedly, the guy behind it is an atheist and is using that site as a troll or some weird form of research to study what Christian men really think about women or marriage.

    There have been a few web pages written about it, saying that the site is not genuine.

    _Is Biblical Gender Roles a Big Hoax?_

    Last I heard, nobody conclusively knows if the guy behind that site is a troll or not. He might very well be the “real deal,” but there is a lot of doubt online about his true beliefs and motives.

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  11. Re: KAS
    post of OCTOBER 7, 2016 @ 3:29 PM

    I’m not sure as to your purpose is to continuing to post to this blog, when many of the comments I’ve seen you make are not really to address the subject matter in the original post, but to Tone Police other commentators.

    I suspect that the majority of commentators at this blog are over the age of 35 or 40 and don’t need a “school marm” type character to “tut tut” them, clutch her pearls, or correct them when or if she thinks they’re not talking about Christian books, famous preachers, or mega-churches nicely enough.

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  12. Thanks Daisy. I’m feeling really stupid and naive right about now. Not because of you, but because I cried over this stuff. It was also close in retoric to what some people say about complementarianism and also that of my husband. I’m shaking my head in disbelief of my own online ignorance.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Toiler,

    It’s NOT your fault. The very fact you were agonizing over all of this shows you have a heart seeking the Lord, willing to make any sacrifice that He requires. That in itself pleases the Lord.

    Let yourself take the time to sort everything out. Remember that nothing is wasted when it came from a heart seeking the Lord.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. @ Toiler,
    Please don’t feel bad.

    That guy’s site sounds very similar to some of the more wacko complementarians – it sounds real.

    He might very well be genuine.

    It’s just that people online cannot tell (this would include Christians on other sites). Some people think his site is a put-on, while others think he’s real.

    Even if he is a fake, his material sounds close enough to actual complementarian stuff I can see how folks might believe it is true.

    If he’s doing a parody of complementarians, he’s so spot on with it, it’s hard to tell it’s parody.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. “Thanks Daisy. I’m feeling really stupid and naive right about now. Not because of you, but because I cried over this stuff. It was also close in retoric to what some people say about complementarianism and also that of my husband. I’m shaking my head in disbelief of my own online ignorance.” – Toiler

    The reason you cried over it, in my opinion, is because the Comp churches use Thought Reform techniques on people to gain compliance. There is also a high rate of depression among these women, because what they are being expected to do is not normal but artificial and imposed.

    Check psychologist/author/Thought Reform/Cult expert Steve Hassan’s website about the BITE Model.

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

    The BITE Model
    I. Behavior Control
    II. Information Control
    III. Thought Control
    IV. Emotional Control

    Hassan based his research on the work of Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, Yale psychiatrist who used to be an Air Force psychiatrist. Dr. Lifton studied the Chinese Communist Thought Reform techniques and how they gained compliance over people. It turns out that authoritarian groups use these same tactics on people,

    Brad/FuturistGuy who comments here has also written about Dr. Lifton on Brad’s blog. Brad really respects Dr. Lifton’s work.

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Toiler, I am so proud of you! You are looking at it wrong, though. Avid Reader said it all:

    “It’s NOT your fault. The very fact you were agonizing over all of this shows you have a heart seeking the Lord, willing to make any sacrifice that He requires. That in itself pleases the Lord.

    Let yourself take the time to sort everything out. Remember that nothing is wasted when it came from a heart seeking the Lord.”

    We should be on a journey to increased wisdom. That takes us many places. We don’t grow in wisdom insulated. Seeking truth is a complicated messy uncomfortable business. Most are too lazy to bother or they spend their entire lives seeking it only from gurus. It’s part of the journey.

    Please dont ask me to list all the stupid things I fell for. :o)

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Toiler, I agree with Lydia 100%. This is a journey; we learn and burn and sometimes yearn, but with Jesus, who has done it all, we’ll get there without ANY doubts. You are most welcome here with us, as we are still figuring things out and learning as we go.
    Lydia, shall we compare lists of the stupid things we have fallen for? Have you a month or so? Hee hee. :o)

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Toiler, precious Toiler…..”depression for three years.” I was at the bottom of the same gravity box as you dear sister; with the walls being so high and slippery that it was difficult to climb out for a period of time. Praise Jesus, He IS the Great Physician and my heart goes out to you in love. Appreciate you sharing a past burden as it affects/has affected many a precious soul.

    We are still here by the grace and mercy of our LORD. And I’m so thankful you discovered this site for it ministers to me quite often, as you have done so today.

    May our LORD Bless and keep you, Toiler.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Toiler – It’s okay. You’re not alone! What’s important now is that you’re free of all of that. Allow yourself the time that you need to process everything.

    Liked by 2 people

  20. Thanks ladies! I really mean it! I had a big ugly cry last night! Mostly cause I wanted to throw away my life because of this and I came close several times. I almost abandoned my 3 precious babies because I didn’t want to live like this. Thanks be to God, he kept me from such a terrible thing! This veil that has clouded my vision is lifting and I am so thankful!! I also know now more than ever that He will not lose one of His sheep. Amen for the Jesus that not only saves, but keeps!

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Crying is good, Toiler. And we are here for you too. Yes, Jesus saved you; done and dusted. You belong to Him now, so cast all fears on Him, and share your joys with Him too. We are so happy for you.
    Lotsa love to you.
    (This site is an amazing community of good peeps, and don’t you forget it).

    Liked by 1 person

  22. “This veil that has clouded my vision is lifting and I am so thankful!!”

    Your value as created in His Image is unsurpassed. You are a full heir of every single promise and every single believer is equipped with the freedom to develop their gifting.

    The “veil lifting” in your comment reminded me of this:

    12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” 2 Corin 3

    I still get a bit misty eyed when I read that!

    Liked by 2 people

  23. Daisy the comments I’ve seen you make are … to Tone Police other commentators.

    By no means! How people express themselves is entirely up to them. If they choose to go down the Mark Driscoll style of talking, then they should not be surprised when the very people who need to hear what they are trying to say won’t listen. That really is it.

    Should error in doctrine and practice be exposed? Abusive behaviour? I think it should. My sole concern in viewing the array of blogging on this for my own thinking is how commenters shoot themselves in the foot. Talking of veils to change the metaphor, this is exactly what I thought of in this connection, a veil over how bad language or stupid comparisons come over to the outsider. Absolute blindness to their own faults. The mirror image of those they criticise sometimes.

    Have you ever thought how the word ‘survivor comes across to those outside the blog scene when they first hear it? For people who have suffered at the hands of bullies, yet come out with their faith intact, their faith has ‘survived’, I can understand that use of the word. I know this kind of thing happens.

    But if, as I fear, some of them seem to put their experience on a level with holocaust survivors, then words fail me. For each survivor, how many died?

    I have a specific case in mind where the bishop concerned was more than likely innocent of a claim of abuse, brought up 40 years after his death. Be that as it may, a group looking into this and the bad way it was handled by the church and police baulked at the word ‘survivor’ for the alleged victim. Survivor – hello! What on earth .. oh never mind …”

    In cases where such alleged victims misrespresent others, or show malice or an unwillingness ever to let go etc., how much more this damages their credibility – even if they are actually telling the truth. It negates the exposure of evil in my opinion, and I am not alone in this.

    That’s it as far as I’m concerned, I have no desire to keep on about this, even if it looks like it. If I’m wrong, it doesn’t matter; if I’m right, I think it does.

    Like

  24. If they choose to go down the Mark Driscoll style of talking, then they should not be surprised when the very people who need to hear what they are trying to say won’t listen.

    And, in your opinion, who exactly are “the very people who need to hear what they are trying to say”?

    Julie Anne has made this blog for victims and survivors of spiritual abuse. As far as I can tell, she believes they the ones who need to hear all of this. And their concerns and needs will come before anyone else’s.

    Have you ever thought how the word ‘survivor’ comes across to those outside the blog scene when they first hear it?

    I have a specific case in mind where the bishop concerned was more than likely innocent of a claim of abuse, brought up 40 years after his death. Be that as it may, a group looking into this and the bad way it was handled by the church and police baulked at the word ‘survivor’ for the alleged victim.

    That’s their problem. People who haven’t suffered abuse don’t get to lecture those who have regarding how they describe the experience.

    In cases where such alleged victims misrespresent others, or show malice or an unwillingness ever to let go etc., how much more this damages their credibility – even if they are actually telling the truth.

    Why?

    And what exactly to you mean by “an unwillingness ever to let go”? I trust you realize that many who undergo abuse suffer from PTSD and other conditions. In such cases, it’s not a matter of people who refuse to let go of the past — rather, the past refuses to let go of them.

    It negates the exposure of evil in my opinion, and I am not alone in this.

    On this board, I’m pretty sure you are.

    That’s it as far as I’m concerned, I have no desire to keep on about this, even if it looks like it.

    Yep, it sure looks like it.

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  25. KAS, I pray that God shows you grace for you ignorance to abuse and that you are never called to walk a mile in the shoes of those you think should just get past it. Jesus was a compassionate Savior who understood the pain others were going through. Even when He knew he would raise Lazarus from the dead, he was deeply moved and shed tears for his friend and weeped with Mary & Martha.
    You will know them by their fruit.

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  26. Toiler, Evil never shows up with horns and a glass of poison. It masquerades as light. This variation I call: Totalitarian niceness. There is an agenda behind it. Brain gaming with a plastic fish and Jesus lipstick.

    If KAS can convince one victim or “survivor” to fear not relating their experience in his/her Christian approved way, then his/her goal is met. No one here is fooled this person gives a damn about evil done to others. I have heard this same sort of thing ad nauseam from many pastors. It is a censoring tactic using fear and shaming.

    Trust me. “Christians” are more concerned with what was actually done to an innocent person. Not whether they used proper Christiansese wording to relate their experience.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. “an unwillingness ever to let go”

    🙈

    I’m often told to “stop holding onto the past” and “move on” from the two people who hurt me most and have never apologised for years of emotional abuse and neglect.

    You cannot forget abuse.

    You can forgive if you choose but you never ever forget.

    If I talk about my childhood I am guaranteed a nice long headache and if I’m lucky a panic attack.

    My husband always tells me not to talk about my childhood because he knows what will happen.

    I need to be healthy for my kids.

    KAS… I can’t ‘get over’ the hurt from my childhood.

    I accept my parents are rebellious against God and choose not to repent and trust in Christ.

    I know that a good Christian forgives those who hurt them.

    But this doesn’t magically take away the pain and hurt and memories.

    Those never ever go away.

    You just forget about it… until you are triggered.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. Lydia, Toiler:

    I still believe KAS is a troll; he has all the hallmarks of being one. Shall we start treating him like one? Really, he seems clueless about real suffering and does not seem to understand that a great deal of the cases spoken of in this blog involve criminal behaviour. My guess is that KAS is of THAT heretical man made philosophy; yes, that one that demeans women at every turn. If he is not, then he is a closet Calvinist; whatever, but a troll he is, of that I am certain.

    Like

  29. I’m partially of two minds about the topic of letting go.

    On the one hand, I recognize if I hold on to hurt or anger from things people did to me in the past, it ends up hurting me in the end scheme of things, not the person I’m upset with.
    I think most people intellectually grasp this, but emotionally, it’s harder to deal with.

    Letting go of past pain or wrongs is easier said than done, and what a lot of Christians forget or don’t care about is that “letting go” is a process.

    Forgiving those who have hurt us is a gradual process that might take weeks, months, years, or a lifetime (and therapy, and/or medications prescribed by a psychiatrist may be necessary). It’s not as though a person can flip a light switch and instantly get over anger or pain from the past.

    I think the best way to help a hurting or angry person get through the pain and anger more quickly is to validate their experiences and feelings. Weep with the one who weeps.

    If you lecture, shame, or scold the abused or the hurt person to hurry up and get over their pain already, you’re invalidating them and their experience.
    You are acting as a stumbling block. You are aiding in prolonging their pain.

    If someone’s pain or anger is still so raw or deep they express it by using put-downs of pastors or theological systems they hold accountable for their pain, or they use profanity in their rants and venting, go ahead and let them do so, without judging them for it.

    I agree with Lydia’s post of OCTOBER 10, 2016 @ 10:50 AM, too.

    Like

  30. But if, as I fear, some of them seem to put their experience on a level with holocaust survivors, then words fail me. For each survivor, how many died?

    Bostonlady, this part is straight up trolling IMO. If you call yourself a ‘survivor’ you are comparing yourself to holocaust victims? Nonsense. I can tell you I survived a car wreck and you wouldn’t bat an eye.

    And lots of people have died from domestic violence, if that’s what we are talking about because I think I’ve completely lost the thread at this point!

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  31. KAS,

    What did you mean by accusing “commentators” of “absolute blindness to their own faults. The mirror image of those they criticize sometimes?”

    Please define the “faults” aka “sins” that you want them to face in themselves?

    Like

  32. @KAS,

    Jesus took spiritual abuse very seriously. And He had harsh words to say to those who would abuse the sheep.

    I am grateful for the people who came before me and described spiritual abuse on blogs. It helped me deal with the excommunication/shunnings and abusive treatment that was meted out on good and godly Christians of all ages at my ex-church (authoritarian, NeoCalvinist, abusive, oppressive, Complementarian/Patriarchy-obey-and-submit promoting).

    I in turn am helping others.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Velour! You said the “C” word. How dare you…speak the truth? Between you and me, there is no difference between Neo-C and C; none whatsoever. You have described them to a tee.
    I hope you’ve found your peace (it sounds like it), and I am so thankful that you are now helping others. That is the Godly thing to do.
    But you still said the “C” word…and that is great!! The truth must out.

    Liked by 2 people

  34. Sadly, many churches are full of people who think like KAS and twist things to boot. There is a tendency to, either on purpose or ignorantly, call evil, good and good, evil because they focus on the wrong things and are upside down in their understanding.

    Liked by 1 person

  35. People who haven’t suffered abuse don’t get to lecture those who have regarding how they describe the experience.

    I said “How people express themselves is entirely up to them”. That’s not lecturing.

    If you call yourself a ‘survivor’ you are comparing yourself to holocaust victims? Nonsense. I can tell you I survived a car wreck and you wouldn’t bat an eye.

    I said “For people who have suffered at the hands of bullies, yet come out with their faith intact, their faith has ‘survived’, I can understand that use of the word.
    But if, as I fear, some of them seem to put their experience on a level with holocaust survivors…

    So yes, I understand the word survivor can be used in surviving a car wreck sense. And you missed the word IF regarding the holocaust. I was nothing like as definite as you portray.

    If he is not, then he is a closet Calvinist ;

    I’m not a calvinist, neo or otherwise. I tried to be over several years, and as much as reformed theology contains a lot of truth, it’s not the whole thing. Something inside wouldn’t let me sign up for it hook line and sinker.

    No one here is fooled this person gives a damn about evil done to others.

    More guesswork/prejudice. And on the contrary, my harping on has been because if the doctrines and practices that are doing people real harm are to be stopped, how those who wish to counter this behave will be decisive in whether they get a hearing or not. If you simply call them names, they and their fan base will not listen.

    I have known personally believers who have suffered abuse, sexual and otherwise, sometimes over years, and I would never belittle this, nor in any way condone it.

    I don’t like being had. I think I have been, first by a variety of evangelical blogs and ministries it would now appear are sound on the surface, but have murky things going on below. Bullying, covering up crime, and immune to criticism.
    Secondly, by discerners who try to counter their influence, supported by an army of commenters, some of whom, I eventually find to my consternation, don’t actually care about real long term suffering, but are only hitting back or justifying their own disobedience to the NT. They too are immune to criticism, and woe to anyone who tries to point this out – the ranks will soon close! This latter group are actually aiding the continuation of the Big Names imo. They have produced a skepticism in me I didn’t used to have. Perhaps that appears as trolling, but I’m not.

    It still leaves me scratching my head as to how anyone would think I would ever be on the side of authoritarians and little men with big bibles, misusing them for personal empires.

    I think I have seen as much of this murky scene as I want to for a while.

    Like

  36. Kas said,

    More guesswork/prejudice. And on the contrary, my harping on has been because if the doctrines and practices that are doing people real harm are to be stopped, how those who wish to counter this behave will be decisive in whether they get a hearing or not. If you simply call them names, they and their fan base will not listen.

    …Secondly, by discerners who try to counter their influence, supported by an army of commenters, some of whom, I eventually find to my consternation, don’t actually care about real long term suffering, but are only hitting back or justifying their own disobedience to the NT. They too are immune to criticism, and woe to anyone who tries to point this out

    I find this to be very ironic.

    You do come off as a lecturing scold or judgmental to people on this blog who have been hurt by churches, pastors, or run- of- the- mill Christians.

    That may not be your intent, but that is how it comes across to me. You essentially tell us that if we want to be heard (by whom – the fan base of famous preachers?), we should frame our complaints in a nicer- sounding way.

    I think you could take your own advice on this, how to communicate more effectively to your target audience (us on the blog). You’re obviously not winning over any of us on this thread, or previous ones where you’ve brought this up.

    Just like you are turned off by overt hostility, anger, hurt, or vulgar language by abuse survivors, so too am I turned off by your tact of ‘Tone Policing’ those who have been hurt, and advising them how you think they could “sound better” to outsiders.

    Taking that tact comes across as patronizing, insensitive, and condescending.

    I think you have made your point sufficiently on this score, on a few threads now.

    Like

  37. KAS, you write: “It still leaves me scratching my head as to how anyone would think I would ever be on the side of authoritarians . . .”

    Well, KAS, your reformed garment is showing, all too clearly. We don’t have to scratch our heads about that one, as it is reflected in your comments and your vehement denials on what you actually meant (defending yourself ferociously); it’s called trying to paint yourself out of a corner. In all honesty, you have not been supportive in your comments, in general, and it is obvious you do not understand the level of hurt we women are/have experienced in real life. Maybe you are not doing it on purpose; maybe you simply like to be vague and write in a roundabout way, but it does not strike a chord with the wounded on this blog. Not. At. All.

    I, for one, will not address you again.

    Like

  38. And you missed the word IF

    I didn’t miss it, but as you’re tone policing based on things you think people might, potentially be thinking? I’m not taking it seriously. YOU are only one making that particular link with the word ‘survivor’.

    If someone says it in this thread, feel free to go to town and they will defend themselves. But I’m not going to engage with ridiculous ‘if’s.

    Like

  39. “Between you and me, there is no difference between Neo-C and C; none whatsoever.” – Boston Lady

    Thanks for your nice comment.

    I have discerned a world of difference between Calvinists like my mild Presbyterian grandmother and her calm, staid bunch of Presbyterians who were egalitarian, classy, decent, had women missionaries and in teaching/carrying The Gospel (my grandmother’s women friends were medical missionaries/doctors in African countries) and the hateful “frozen chosen”/NeoCalvinists/Young Restless & Reformed who are rabid, intractable, arrogant, insufferable, and very abusive in their teachings (toward other denominations, women, etc).

    It was my Calvinist Presbyterian grandmother’s example, and that of her church and their respect of women that I saw as a little girl, that made me realize: There is something seriously wrong with this nut case NeoCalvinist church that I’m a member of. 180 degree difference between classical Calvinists and NeoCalvinists.

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  40. Dee at The Wartburg Watch (North Carolina) used to live in Texas. She and her family were members of Bent Tree in Texas, pastored by Pete Briscoe. A woman pastor JoAnn Hummel pastors at one of the Bent Tree churches. Recently Bent Tree, a conservative church, decided to open up the elder positions to women. They explain it here. (Pastor Pete Briscoe also encouraged Dee Parsons to use her gift of teaching when she was a member at Bent Tree. She taught Bible classes, including with men as students.)

    Like

  41. Velour, what’s more important right now is that you are doing something wonderful. I, too, have learned beautiful lessons from my mom and grandparents, regardless their theologies and denominations.
    Bless you much, dear sister, and may that special peace that the world CANNOT know be yours always.

    Liked by 2 people

  42. KAS, you need to cut and paste the comment where abuse survivors were compared to Holocaust survivors. You keep bringing this up and I cannot tell if it is a deliberate twisting or if perhaps I missed a comment where that was declared by a commentor here. If I remember correctly when you first floated this analogy it was something you had seen on other blogs and used as an example here.

    So let’s make it very clear where I was coming from when I mentioned how the majority of German society has been taught to obey orders and look to their authority. There is much that we can learn from history When it comes to evil movements or even the problem of not being an independent thinker and seeking God’s wisdom instead of man’s. Following a select few human authorities enmasse has lead to many atrocities in history.

    So unless you are going to reference the specific comment here concerning Holocaust survivors I am going to politely ask that you stop using that example.

    Like

  43. Lydia said,

    KAS, you need to cut and paste the comment where abuse survivors were compared to Holocaust survivors.

    You keep bringing this up and I cannot tell if it is a deliberate twisting or if perhaps I missed a comment where that was declared by a commentor here.

    If I remember correctly when you first floated this analogy it was something you had seen on other blogs and used as an example here.

    Now that I think of it, this bothers me for maybe a different reason it bothers other people here.

    I come from this family that taught me that my feelings (and needs) don’t matter. I’ve constantly had my feelings discounted since I’ve been a kid, and this ticks me off the older I get.

    Any time I’ve tried talking to certain family members of mine (or Christian people I’ve met at churches) that ‘so-and-so’ hurt my feelings, or my feelings are hurt because of X, Y, or Z (this would include the several years of deep grief I experienced after my mother passed away)…

    These people I have gone to have compared my situation to someone else in the world, who can maybe be said to have life objectively worse than myself (such as, homeless people living on the streets, kids being sold into sex trafficking in foreign lands, etc), and they then dismiss the pain I’m in as being “nothing” by comparison.

    It’s incredibly insensitive and minimizing to point to someone else in the world who you think has life harder than I so to dismiss my problems, or what pain I’m in.

    This is really not a game I play with other people. I don’t think that pain and problems are a sport to compete in to prove who has it worse.

    I’ve had family and friends approach me in the past to vent or cry to me because of some difficulty they are in and never have I retorted with something like,

    “Shut up! What’s the big deal? My friend Joe has life ten times worse than you, so what are you complaining about, buttercup?”

    In my life, I’ve only known one or two people who probably did have a recurrent tendency to make mountains out of molehills..

    -The types who would regularly complain to me about what I’d think most of us would consider truly minor issues
    (for example, one friend I had who was in her early 30s and still living at home with her family would complain to me vehemently and regularly about things like her 25 year old brother drinking the last Coca Cola soda in the house, which ticked her off. She would complain to me as though this was the greatest injustice to ever happen in the world. She would fume for days over things like that).

    Other than that one friend of mine, and maybe one other, I’ve not known too many adults to cry or fret for weeks over a lost Coca-Cola.

    (BTW, even when the Coke friend complained to me about the Coke, I did not dismiss her anger out of hand. I just told her I was sorry her brother got the last Coke.)

    In a way, I find it cruel or heartless for someone to suggest that because someone else has gone through pain or tragedy that may not be, in most people’s opinions, as severe as what a Holocaust survivor did, that it’s then acceptable or okay to belittle what pain they have been through.

    On a scale of 1 to 10, with “ten” being the hardest or most severe, I guess Holocaust survivors went through a 1 Billion…
    But don’t sit there and tell someone going through a level 4, 6, 7 or 8 crisis, to take their sad feelings and stuff them down, shut up about them, say that their pain doesn’t count because they are not at a 10 or 1 billion on the Scale ‘O Pain, etc.

    BTW. I have noticed that the people who like to downplay other people’s pain are sometimes the same ones who expect you to weep with them and for them and treat them with kid gloves and pamper them when they come to YOU crying and upset over something gone bad in THEIR life. (I have a family member who does this to me.)
    They love to receive compassion, babying, concern, attention, and condolences when they are under stress, but they sure don’t love to give any of that stuff out to other people who are going through a time time.

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  44. “I’ve had family and friends approach me in the past to vent or cry to me because of some difficulty they are in and never have I retorted with something like,

    “Shut up! What’s the big deal? My friend Joe has life ten times worse than you, so what are you complaining about, buttercup?” – Daisy

    A++++++++!!!

    Like

  45. Boston Lady: What is it about the phrase I’m not a calvinist, neo or otherwise that is so difficult to understand? And I have deliberately not addressed individual’s pain and suffering, I’m thinking more in general terms of the culture that may (or may not) be responsible for enabling it. I’d rather not say anything than trample over someone who really has been abused and bullied.

    (You don’t have to reply, it’s just for your own thinking.)

    Like

  46. Lydia – I’ve seen some appalling Nazi references, I don’t think any here though. It was enough to make me wonder if ‘survivor’ is being used generially in this exaggerated sense. If anyone said ‘we wouldn’t dream of comparing ourselves with such suffering’, that’s fine by me, I would be relieved to hear it. I’d rather not believe the worst.

    It is an unfortunate term, and is liable to be misunderstood by outsiders, recently confirmed in the secular press I read.

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  47. Velour – in keeping with the thread, I read the refutation of Danvers. Interesting.

    It built an edifice on Gal 3 : 28 that text in context will not support, which is par for the course, as is ‘mutual submission’. It also displayed what is to my mind one of the internal contradictions of egalitarianism. It argues against hierachical relationships, no submit/head in marriage, for example, but then goes on to argue for women being in positions of leadership (pastors and elders), which is, like it or not, hierarchical in nature. Why is some level of inequality legitimate in one, but not the other?

    Most telling was the part where evangelical women are leaving conservative churches for liberal ones where they can preach, lead and teach and lead spiritually fullfillling lives. Is this such an important príority that you would go to a compromised church, and is church there primarily to provide spiritual fullfillment? The focus has shifted not very subtley from serving God to me and my needs, a fruit of seeker sensitivity as well. Seeker sensitivity is ‘servicing the Self under the guise of serving God’.

    Something to think about!

    I don’t want to get into the usual discussions about this. I have learned that far too many people across the board believe what they want to believe when it comes to this issue.

    I don’t have an altar at home with the Danvers Statement displayed on it, together with flowers, neither do I light candles on it on Wayne Grudem’s birthday. Just in case you are wondering. My own views on this go back in part to 1662!

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  48. I’ve done time in liberal churches. One of which was an attempted combination of liberal theology and charismatic experience, which led directly into deception as there was no standard or canon to measure things by. It is the direct cause of my dislike of playing fast and loose with the NT or relegating it to first century ‘advice’.

    Anyway, I’m taking a breather now, so you can relax.

    Like

  49. “Lydia – I’ve seen some appalling Nazi references, I don’t think any here though. It was enough to make me wonder if ‘survivor’ is being used generially in this exaggerated sense. If anyone said ‘we wouldn’t dream of comparing ourselves with such suffering’, that’s fine by me, I would be relieved to hear it. I’d rather not believe the worst.”

    I think I get it: In order to be “KAS approved” we must declare upfront we don’t necessarily agree with how might others describe those abused because YOU have declared such as being so……but provide no evidence of this as the standard? You keep throwing it out as if it is a prolific position.

    It is perfectly ok with me if you believe the worst. As long as you realize people might freely respond. :o)

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  50. KAS,

    You and I both know that the Apostle Paul was educated in the top schools of his time where they liked to pray this prayer—thank you God for not making me a Gentle, a slave or a woman.

    That’s why Paul turned that upside down when he attacked entitlement mentality in the church by writing “there is no Jew or Greek, no bond or free, no male or female you are all one in Christ.”

    That’s why Jesus said that He “didn’t come to be served but to serve and give My life a ransom for many.”

    Now KAS, I know you and I both accept Scripture as the final authority for our lives.

    Just curious—how do you interpret Romans 16:7 which describes Junia—the female Apostle?

    What about Phoebe the female deacon which Paul sent to the church at Rome, telling them to help her with whatever church business she was working on?

    Then there’s Philippians 4:3 where Paul tells the church to “help these women” who labored with him for the Gospel.

    Is the church today helping or hindering the call of God on women’s lives?

    Liked by 1 person

  51. “It built an edifice on Gal 3 : 28 that text in context will not support, which is par for the course, as is ‘mutual submission’.”

    I have not read that article in a while but when people trot out Gal 3:28 specifically, it bothers me. The larger context is about being full heirs of it all….promises, gifts, etc. Not just salvation….. which is, sadly, how the patriarchal non mutualists position it. They also love to redefine Eph 5:21 to exclude some members of the body.

    ” It also displayed what is to my mind one of the internal contradictions of egalitarianism. It argues against hierachical relationships, no submit/head in marriage, for example, but then goes on to argue for women being in positions of leadership (pastors and elders), which is, like it or not, hierarchical in nature. Why is some level of inequality legitimate in one, but not the other?’

    I agree to a certain degree because we tend to take the shepherd/sheep metaphor way too far when it comes to the body of Christ. The word “office” was added by translators so these functions like pastor, teacher, elders are really action words not offices. They are not static. Example, Many “pastor” at some point but don’t call it that.

    We only have a few examples of letters addressed to a specific overseer or to the overseers who are supposed to carry out Paul’s advice. How would Corinth know they should appoint elders? How could they find qualified elders in Crete since all Cretins were liars? :o)

    Mostly, they are written to cities where various gatherings take place in various places . The only thing we know concerning any sort of “leadership” in Corinth, for example, is that “Chloe had people”. :o)

    There are no strict rules for polity structure. And it was a glorious mess until the power brokers took it over and wanted control of people. The body had a higher calling than a strict structure.

    The Puritan tyrants declared that those women prophesying in Chp 11 were not teaching or preaching so it was ok. They redefined to make it fit. There are so many inconsistencies because people bought into the top down church state structure that became the top down 501c3. Nothing spiritual about either. I fear even CBE doesn’t get it. I pray that all believers seek to develop and practice their gifts freely outside these man made structures. We have the freedom to do so.

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  52. “That’s why Paul turned that upside down when he attacked entitlement mentality in the church by writing “there is no Jew or Greek, no bond or free, no male or female you are all one in Christ.”

    KAS might want to study Philemon. One of my favorite books that gives us insight into transforming the culture as believers instead of the typical Jewish Zealotry of being occupied.

    So, Treat your runaway slave as a equal brother in Christ? That was radical at the time. The law said the owner had the right to put him to death. But the owner proclaimed Christ and that should change everything.

    Like

  53. KAS said

    Most telling was the part where evangelical women are leaving conservative churches for liberal ones where they can preach, lead and teach and lead spiritually fullfillling lives.

    Is this such an important príority that you would go to a compromised church, and is church there primarily to provide spiritual fullfillment?

    The focus has shifted not very subtley from serving God to me and my needs, a fruit of seeker sensitivity as well. Seeker sensitivity is ‘servicing the Self under the guise of serving God’.

    There is such as thing as theologically conservative Christians who reject Christian gender complementarianism.

    Rejecting complementarianism does not automatically make a person a liberal.

    Nor do all Christians who reject complementarianism do so under the influence of liberalism.

    I think it’s an indictment against gender complementarian churches and gender comp theology that women who are skilled at leading, or who feel called to lead, have to step out of a church environ to use those skills.

    Jesus said you are not to hide your talents – but comp churches and comp theology insists that women hide their God-given talents.

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  54. P.S. to my post above, to KAS.

    I think churches that teach gender complementarianism are “compromised,” and I wonder why any Christian would want to attend one.

    (Also – I am not a liberal.)

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  55. Kas said

    The focus has shifted not very subtley from serving God to me and my needs, a fruit of seeker sensitivity as well.

    I am not a supporter of the “seeker friendly” type of church, as they tend to be shallow on teaching.

    Having said that.

    Your version of Christianity sounds like what I was raised with: to believe it is always or necessarily “selfish” for a person to get her own needs met.

    That belief falls under the category of codependency.
    Codependency is unbiblical.

    I wrote about that topic here:
    _Basic Overview of Codependency – And How Some Christians Misunderstand or Misrepresent Codependency_

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  56. KAS said

    I’ve done time in liberal churches.

    One of which was an attempted combination of liberal theology and charismatic experience, which led directly into deception as there was no standard or canon to measure things by.

    It is the direct cause of my dislike of playing fast and loose with the NT or relegating it to first century ‘advice’.

    It is entirely conservative to take into consideration the historical backdrop and cultures in which the Scriptures were first written.
    Which in turn means that it’s fine to recognize that not everything in the Bible is meant to be lived by Christians today.

    I respect sola scriptura, but one problem is that even in conservative churches or denominations that believe in sola scriptura and conservative hermeneutic methods, is that conservative Christians often disagree with each other about what parts of the Bible means.

    Links for consideration:

    _Being Biblical Means Being Doctrinally Tolerant_

    _Not everything in the Bible is Biblical!_

    _Who’s Afraid of the Holy Spirit? The Uneasy Conscience of a Non-Charismatic Evangelical_

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  57. Oh shoot. My post above to KAS is sitting in moderation.

    It has some links to about three or four web pages I think some of the readers here might find interesting.

    I will repeat one sentiment I made in my currently- stuck in moderation post @ KAS:

    Taking the Bible’s historical background and culture into account is NOT a “liberal” approach to understanding the Bible, which is what you were alleging in some comment above; Kas said,

    …playing fast and loose with the NT or relegating it to first century ‘advice’.

    If Julie Anne gets my post above out of moderation, I would encourage folks to check it out, to see the links I put in that post.

    Like

  58. Lydia said

    I think I get it: In order to be “KAS approved” we must declare upfront we don’t necessarily agree with how might others describe those abused because YOU have declared such as being so…… but provide no evidence of this as the standard?

    Mmm-hmm.

    Also, as I noted in a longer post on the first page, it bothers me because that view seems to argue this:

    <

    blockquote>“If you’ve never been held prisoner by Nazis in Germany, you have no right to speak up or out against whatever mistreatment you have received, because any and all other mistreatment pales in comparison to the Holocaust, so S.T.F.U. about your abuse or pain.”

    <

    blockquote> I come from a family who plays that kind of game often.

    The message conveyed is:
    ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Other people’s feelings matter, but not yours, so shut up.’

    That may not be the intent or opinion of KAS, but it sounds like it, and it sounds like what I heard from my family and church going Christians I’ve been around.

    Like

  59. Lydia said,

    They also love to redefine Eph 5:21 to exclude some members of the body.

    Yes. Don’t get me started.

    There is a complementarian guy who used to post regularly at the other blog who swears he’s a conservative, respect the Bible (unlike those horrible Liberals!), but, he denies that Christian husbands are a part of Ephesians 5:21, even though they are.

    Don’t sit there and tell me that you revere the Bible, are conservative about how you interpret it, but then, take your enormous gender complementarian, sexist bias to color how you read passages such as Eph 5.21 because it doesn’t neatly fit your presuppositions.

    Conservative Christians such as complementarians claim to respect the Bible, take it at face value, and so on and so forth, but they play “fast and loose” with the Bible at times too, just like the liberals they complain about.

    Liked by 1 person

  60. Lydia quoting someone else (not sure who) said,

    “It also displayed what is to my mind one of the internal contradictions of egalitarianism. It argues against hierachical relationships, no submit/head in marriage, for example, but then goes on to argue for women being in positions of leadership (pastors and elders), which is, like it or not, hierarchical in nature.
    Why is some level of inequality legitimate in one, but not the other?’

    Complementarians assume that teacher and preacher, etc. and so on, are authoritative positions to start with, they assume that certain people in the church have authority over other people or should have authority.

    Jesus said that his followers should not seek to have authority over each other.

    The positions are not actually authoritative in that sense (of people being employees or slaves under a preacher boss figure) but complementarians think those roles are authoritative.

    I think what egalitarians are saying is that women should have the same opportunities as men.
    So, if men are allowed the opportunity to be elders, Sunday school teachers, preachers, or whatever else, women should be allowed to work in those positions as well.

    Why are only men permitted into positions considered hierarchical and authoritative, in and out of church, but not women – and isn’t that unfair and sexist?”
    – is a more accurate set of questions and concerns, IMO.

    Instead of being preoccupied at how it looks ‘unseemly’ for women to want to be in positions of power, the real concern should be why are churches and men so eager to bar women from positions of perceived power based on their gender?

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  61. Hi Daisy,

    Thank you for giving us some food for thought in posting those links.

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to draw your attention to what was written on the link
    “Not everything.”

    They sound like they haven’t had a chance to watch Barbara Robert’s powerful video on how the Levite’s concubine story in Judges 19 is about domestic violence. They think it’s about the Levite being “upset about immoral behavior.”

    Nooooooooooooooo!

    The Levite was CAUSING the bad behavior, killing the woman and starting a war that destroyed many lives. My opinion after hearing a crazy amount of sermons is that Barbara had really powerful Scriptual insight into what was really happening in that story.

    Here’s the link:

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  62. Daisy! You are a thorn!
    Keep on sharing your message and keep doing your good work, and always put Jesus first!
    Peace, God’s perfect peace, to you.
    Many blessings to you!

    Like

  63. “,I think what egalitarians are saying is that women should have the same opportunities as men.
    So, if men are allowed the opportunity to be elders, Sunday school teachers, preachers, or whatever else, women should be allowed to work in those positions as well.”

    I promise you I get it. I just don’t see the point in fighting for a seat at a top down table that calls itself the Body of Christ. I don’t need anyone’s permission or acceptance to develop and practice spiritual gifts. It may not be in the institutional system.

    I don’t see the Body of Christ in the same way as I do equal opportunity in the civil realm. Besides, women have a choice. They could stop supporting the Christian. institutions.

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  64. “The message conveyed is:
    ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Other people’s feelings matter, but not yours, so shut up.’”

    Truth matters. The right and wrong matter. I would hope that as believers we have learned from history and have higher standards than comparing current actions of so called Christian on such a base and evil scale.

    If that is how bad it has to be to count for anyone, we are done for.

    I will say that mentioning feelings at church and people like KAS is like dangling red meat in front of a pit bull. We won’t change that nor shame them out of it. They look for the weak. KAS would not be here if he did not think he could manipulate.

    People come to spiritual abuse blogs for all sorts of reasons. Some have deceptive agendas that are hard to discern. Some are more obvious if one has seen the pattern before. Some broken and beat up souls come to lurk before they garner the nerve to say, here I am. Some are angry which is healthy but considered a sin by the institutions. Some just want to talk to other adults who have seen the same things.

    If the agenda people are moderated out, we never learn from them. You know, many years ago I Thought I was the only person around staffers who recognized the evil I saw in mega church pastors. But they were just being good staff Germans.

    When forums and blogging came along all sorts of pastors from all sorts of denominational venues showed their true selves off stage. I remember when the Rick Warren people had to first password protect certain threads on pastors. com. It was vile and corrupt. They did not want lay people reading them. As blogging grew, we have had ample opportunity to see what is going on. And there aren’t many decent ones. If they are, they struggle.

    Becoming strong is a good goal. Becoming a strong survivor is goid. I totally disagree with people who think that is unchristian. But one thing I can promise is the Christian Industrial Complex does not care one whit for people’s feelings. That is why I focus on transparency, right, wrong, good and evil.

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  65. Lydia,

    “But one thing I can promise is the Christian Industrial Complex does not care one whit for people’s feelings. That is why I focus on transparency, right, wrong, good and evil.”

    You stole my lines, Lydia! It’s a major thing for me to see people being lied to, abused, and taken terrible advantage of by the institutionalised church, a certain one in particular (I think you know already) when these wolves are the ones that are supposed to care for the flock, blah blah. Yeah, and they don’t care; they simple don’t, only about themselves they do, and they’d go to any lengths to defend their own, etc. Any. Lengths.

    You are a thorn too, and I hope you burn the heck out of every foot that steps on you and your godly causes. Ya, not the nicest imagery, but you don’t mind, I know.

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  66. Lydia,

    “But one thing I can promise is the Christian Industrial Complex does not care one whit for people’s feelings. That is why I focus on transparency, right, wrong, good and evil.”

    You stole my lines, Lydia! It’s a major thing for me to see people being lied to, abused, and taken terrible advantage of by the institutionalised church, a certain one in particular (I think you know already) when these wolves are the ones that are supposed to care for the flock, blah blah. Yeah, and they don’t care; they simple don’t, only about themselves they do, and they’d go to any lengths to defend their own, etc. Any. Lengths.

    You are a thorn too, and I hope you burn the heck out of every foot that steps on you and your godly causes. Ya, not the nicest imagery, but you don’t mind, I know.

    Like

  67. Boston Lady, the ones who scare me the most are the deceivers. I actually prefer dealing with the out right mean ones. At least you know where they stand. But the ones who insist they agree with you about abuse and corruption if only you would approach it in their more enlightened way or you must believe like them to be taken seriously or believe like them or you are like your abusers. It is much more subtle than that because they are clever communicators. At some point you figure out they are aligned with some system or movement they are really attempting to defend in a deceptive way.

    Have you read the Screwtape letters? That is the sort of thing I am talking about. Most Christians seem to think Jesus was a nice doormat. But the truth is, He reserved His ire for the religious leaders of His Tribe. He did not spend much time admonishing the Pagan occupiers, in fact, the sermon on the mount was about the proper way to deal with the pagans. He was not suggesting the Jews go around slapping one another or using one another. (Many pastors teach it that way so you will pliantly take abuse from other “Christians” and not make waves. Most pastors push unity when they mean conformity) He was verbally brutal toward the stiff necked temple set.

    The similar parallels to what is going on today, and historically, in the institutions are uncanny. It’s the same stuff! The corrupt religious leaders controlling the followers of that system through corrupted teaching. Do as I say not as I do. Blind guides. I don’t want to change or reform the system. That is a waste of time. I want to encourage the followers to get out. Where to go? Run to Jesus Christ. He never fails. And He promised us an Advocate we rarely call upon because we are too busy listening to blind guides.

    The corrupt system needs followers and money to operate. It needs to be starved. Believers are finding one another in different ways these days. Some are repurposing their hard earned money to help others in real need. Like Paul did concerning the persecuted Jerusalem believers. He would not shut up about them just about everywhere he went.

    Life is complicated enough without adding a corrupt voluntary institution to it. This is all just my opinion that I am passionate about. I honestly believe that religious deception is the biggest evil of our time. Deception is necessary because state force is no longer an option for religious institutions to control people in most parts of the world except Islamic nations.

    Like

  68. Lydia, But one thing I can promise is the Christian Industrial Complex does not care one whit for people’s feelings.

    KAS thinks liberal churches are ‘compromised’. The truth is, any church that does not care for people is compromised. IF they do not care for women, or gay people, or people who need to be ‘spiritually fed’ or what have you? THEY are the ones that are compromised.

    Christianity without love is dead.

    Like

  69. Lea, I don’t even know what “liberal/conservative” mean anymore, to be honest. Is it political allegiances? I think those days are long gone and voting patterns over the last 20 years prove it. One of my many delights long ago was meeting the Log Cabin Republicans who were an interesting and intellectual lot.

    Does it mean ones position on inerrancy of Scripture? Ok, then whose interpretations?

    Does it mean just ordination of women? Because women pastors can be corrupt just like men pastors can.

    If “liberal or conservative” is supposed to be an insult, they will have to be more specific these days. :o)

    Like

  70. Avid Reader Just curious—how do you interpret Romans 16:7 which describes Junia—the female Apostle?

    Two issues here. Was Junia(s) male or female? Seems to be a consensus now that Junia was female, although not with absolute certainty.

    Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles. NRSV.

    The argument is whether these two individuals were apostles themselves, counted among those ‘sent out’ on ministry, or were well-known to the apostles (founders of the church) whilst not being apostles themselves. There are very few capable of discussing this level of complex Greek grammar.

    What is clear is that dogmatism either way is unwarranted. Leaping to the conclusion Apostles upon whom the church was founded must have included women is more a reflection of believing what you want to believe. It goes beyond the evidence.
    Maybe women were sent out as apostles with various types of ministry or for evangelism, ‘missionaries’ perhaps. But I would be wary of building up too much from one name in one epistle to argue for this. This is conspicuous by its absence in Acts.

    I have no problem with all those verses where the apostle Paul commended women and their ministries, and the use of spiritual gifts, including spoken gifts. The whole picture is needed, not two verses. But where he places a restriction, then that applies too.

    The church may be hindering women where it effectively silences them, taking Paul’s restriction beyond what is written, and it shouldn’t. What it mustn’t do is ‘follow the course of this world’ where a limitation on a particular ministry – actually for both men and women – is indicated, because the world around is never going to understand this anyway. And it mustn’t be swayed by feelings !!

    If there is one thing I have grown weary of, it is adding ‘rules’ on the part of some complementarians, and too much emotion being invested in it on the part of egalitarians, coupled with a tendency of both to get rather militant about it.

    Like

  71. Daisy – That [ saying feelings don’t matter] may not be the intent or opinion of KAS

    It isn’t. I’ve never said this, nor have I implied that inappropriate comparison with the suffering of others means people have never suffered. I’ve also never lecturered anyone on how they should describe what they have experienced, save that they should not exempt themselves from the control of the tongue the NT enjoins.

    What I have said is that by letting rip, victims of abuse enable the perpetrators of abuse or those who cover for them or those who are fans of them to keep the rotten institutional system going, because they won’t listen. If it makes me skeptical and I’ve known people abused, how much more those who think their favourite ministry is one-step down from the angel Gabriel?

    I very grateful to someone who said regarding my own experience of being on the wrong end of misused authority and rumour-mongering ‘it’s not who was right or wrong that will be remembered, but how you responded and behaved’.

    Like

  72. Lydia,

    The deceivers are the most dangerous, make no mistake. May I ask you to have a look on the “Prayer Request” section of SSB? (One of the last entries, please?)
    I’ve had my fair share of disappointments, hurt, betrayal, threats, and various forms of abuse in the “church/institutionalized system.” I will not go back; I have Jesus, and I have true sisters and brothers who do NOT conform to the rules of man-made authority in my life.

    Jesus Christ is the only one to trust. As a born-again believer, I believe He saved me ONCE, done, period. There’s no need to feel ashamed or all wretched or showing fake humility about it, and wondering (fearful and uncertain) whether i am still saved. That’s what man wants us to think; that’s the way they control everyone under their spell.

    I echo and agree with every (intelligent) word you’ve written, Lydia. You are a huge blessing to this most wonderful blog.

    Like

  73. Lydia said,

    Besides, women have a choice. They could stop supporting the Christian. institutions.

    That’s fine, too.

    A lot of women have stopped going to church due to gender politics.

    Some Christian women work for Christian para-church ministries, where they are not always limited due to their gender.

    Some Christian women are so fed up with being treated like 2nd class citizens in churches, they’ve left the faith altogether to become Wiccans or New Agers (according to some news articles I’e read in the past few years).
    -On that score, it may be worth it to fight for equality within churches, if you care about women becoing atheists or whatever over this stuff.

    I don’t see anything wrong with Christian women pointing out the sexism in church positions, though. Why do only men get to serve as pastors or whatever else?
    I think it’s a legitimate question, complaint, and if some of them want to fight to open those things for women, I’m OK with that too.

    Like

  74. Lydia said,

    But one thing I can promise is the Christian Industrial Complex does not care one whit for people’s feelings. That is why I focus on transparency, right, wrong, good and evil.

    Well, I suppose that the EIC (Evangelical Industrial Complex) doesn’t care about people’s feelings, but those who have been hurt by the EIC might want to know that their feelings matter.

    I tire of the Christian KASes of the world who think it’s acceptable for them to dictate how they think other people should act, or react, to whatever they’re going through.

    I tired of the KASes who try to shame hurting people from discussing their feelings or struggles. (Especially on a spiritual abuse blog for former targets of abuse – That is beyond tacky.)

    That shaming, Tone Policing etc, reminds me so much of the family I come from and the treatment I got from average Christians at various churches I went to.

    Victims of whatever in life, whether it’s spiritual abuse, domestic violence, or whatever it may be, need to hear that their feelings are just as important as anyone else’s, and it’s okay for them to talk about their experiences, if that is what they feel they need to recover.

    I think victims also need to hear it’s okay to express negative feelings to other people, instead of being shamed into silence by Christian Tone Police who try to shame them into keeping quiet…
    Supposedly because it’s not “proper” or “Christian” to express negativity.

    BTW, I think KAS wrongly assumes the folks on blogs like this one are trying to persuade pastors or whomever to their viewpoint. I do not completely agree.

    I think one reason that blogs like this to exist is so that the victims can gather to talk to one another, and be a support system for each other.

    It would be nice if abusive churches and pastors read the comments on blogs like this, realize they need to change and change, but I don’t hold my breath for that. I don’t think getting abusive churches to change is the goal – unless that was Julie Anne’s purpose for the blog (which is fine if it is, but I just don’t perceive this blog in that way myself)

    Like

  75. Lydia said,

    Have you read the Screwtape letters? That is the sort of thing I am talking about. Most Christians seem to think Jesus was a nice doormat. But the truth is, He reserved His ire for the religious leaders of His Tribe. He did not spend much time admonishing the Pagan occupiers, in fact, the sermon on the mount was about the proper way to deal with the pagans.
    He was not suggesting the Jews go around slapping one another or using one another. (Many pastors teach it that way so you will pliantly take abuse from other “Christians” and not make waves. Most pastors push unity when they mean conformity) He was verbally brutal toward the stiff necked temple set.

    Yes, this was the sort of Christainity I was raised to believe in. I’ve been having to un-learn it the last few years.

    A lot of Christians think that Jesus was a pacifist doormat – but we have examples of him in the Bible forcefully standing up to people on occasion.

    Like

  76. KAS said,

    and too much emotion being invested in it on the part of egalitarians,

    First of all, emotions are not bad and can be a warning sign that something is wrong – wrong with a doctrine, wrong with a relationship.

    I sort of touch on that issue in my blog post:
    _Doctrines, Theological Views, and Biblical Hermeneutics Have Real-Life Consequences – Personal Experience Vs. Sola Scriptura_

    Secondly, your comment suggests that all to most of gender egalitarianism is built primarily on, or only on, emotions and not reason of biblical study. That is an incorrect view.

    I’ve read very un-emotional, dispassionate scholarly commentary about the topic of gender roles by egalitarians.

    The egalitarian who writes for this blog is not given to “being emotional”, for one:

    _New Life blog_

    Like

  77. Lea said,

    Because goodness knows, emotion is the real evil here!

    God designed people to have emotions.

    The Bible says God has emotions – he experienced sadness and regret over creating people, “Jesus wept,” , “Jesus was a man of sorrows” etc,

    And yet some Christians want us to believe that having emotions is wrong, bad, irrational, or being emotional about an issue invalidates our points or concerns.

    Like

  78. KAS said,

    It isn’t. I’ve never said this, nor have I implied that inappropriate comparison with the suffering of others means people have never suffered. I’ve also never lecturered anyone on how they should describe what they have experienced,

    But I have seen you say this or imply it in a few different posts over two or three threads, so I’m at a loss here with this comment of yours.

    You said,

    What I have said is that by letting rip, victims of abuse enable the perpetrators of abuse or those who cover for them or those who are fans of them to keep the rotten institutional system going, because they won’t listen.

    As I just said above, I don’t think the purpose of a spiritual abuse survivor blog is to get the spiritual abusers or their Fan Clubs to listen and change – at least not in the comments box of the blog.

    I see a blog like this one as more of a space of the victims to come together to support one another.

    (Maybe Julie Anne would disagree with me on any or all of that, it is her blog, and that’s all fine, I’m just stating how I see it).

    If your goal is to get the bullies to listen to the victims to change, I don’t think you’re going about it in the right way, by telling the victims to “pretty up” their commentary and make it sound nicer.

    I’ve seen this ploy used by Christian bullies on social media (Facebook and Twitter, and sometimes blogs that are owned by the abusive church).

    A victim will confront a Christian spiritual bully (which may be a pastor or Christian lay person) on that social media or blog, and the bully will go into the song and dance mode of

    “You know, I cannot hear your complaint because you are so grouchy and rude in how you are expressing your thoughts.
    Please clean up your tone, and I will consider hearing you out.”

    More often than not, that is a dishonest debate ploy the abuser uses to get the victim to shut up and go away.

    The victim can never be satisfactorily “nicey nice” sounding enough to appease the bully (which I think is intentional on the bully’s part to shut the complainer up).

    So, the conversation devolves into the bully lecturing the victim that she is not being Christian-sounding and polite-sounding enough. The bully never gets around to addressing the substance of the victim’s complaints.

    The victim soon tires of parsing every word and sentence to make sure they pass the “Ultra Nice Enough meter” to appease the bully.
    Soon, the victim gets wearied doing this, and drops off the blog or the Facebook conversation.

    I know I’ve done that myself, dropped out of disagreements on a blog where I got tired of having to meticulously watch my tone on every single sentence.
    It is exhausting trying to make sure all your comments meet the ‘Nice Enough’ scale the bully puts into place.

    KAS said,

    If it makes me skeptical and I’ve known people abused, how much more those who think their favourite ministry is one-step down from the angel Gabriel?

    Why do you assume I want your approval? I’d say this probably also goes for most of the other visitors here – I don’t think they’re seeking your approval.

    I think most of us here can spot genuine posters from trolls and so on.

    I’ve been on Julie Anne’s blog here for about two years now, maybe three(?). I’m familiar enough with the other posters here, their personalities, and their posting habits to suss them out and have a feel for if they are the “real deal” or not.

    Some folks have been so deeply wounded by a church or system of theology that their reaction is to be deeply, deeply angry. They may stay angry for months or years. And some of them come to this blog wanting and needing to share their stories.

    There used to be one guy who posted here who regularly inserted obscene language into his posts – it was obvious he had deep hostility because he was in emotional pain.

    I was willing to put aside my personal discomfort of seeing the “F” word and other vulgar language every other sentence in this guy’s posts to hear the guy out.

    I did not insist he “clean up his language” to get a hearing from me. I overlooked the vulgar language to listen to the underlying pain and substance of his posts.

    I thought the usual Christian line was to tell people, “Do not clean yourself up first. Come to Jesus first just as you are and HE will clean you up.”

    So it seems backwards to me to insist hurting people come to a blog like this and temper their language to meet some G-rated, Disney, wholesome standard of KAS criteria.

    I’ve noticed that when Julie Annie or her guest post writers (such as Brad or Kathi) write a main post – (the original post at the top of the blog page) – it is well-written, not overly emotional, polite, calm, and rational, with citations and links to back up the points being made.
    Let the spiritually abusive bullies focus on those original posts by Julie Anne, Brad, and Kathi, if they find the comments by visitors under those blog posts too troubling or or angry-sounding.

    Like

  79. The victim can never be satisfactorily “nicey nice” sounding enough to appease the bully (which I think is intentional on the bully’s part to shut the complainer up).

    If they are too nice, they are ignored. If they get angry, they are told they aren’t talking in a nice enough way.

    It’s obvious what the goal is. I don’t buy this idea that people are not listening because of emotions. Those people weren’t listening regardless. Now they’re listening, and they want to shut you up because other people might hear. No.

    Like

  80. Lydia

    Much agreement when you write @ OCTOBER 12, 2016 @ 10:39 AM…

    “I fear even CBE doesn’t get it.
    I pray that all believers seek to develop and practice their gifts
    freely outside these man made structures.

    We have the freedom to do so.”

    At one time I thought CBE was for Equality…
    Until they refused to post some of my comments. 😉
    Seems my opinions are NOT quite Equal with their opinions. 😉

    What CBE’s “Title “does NOT say is…
    “Christians for Biblical Equality for ALL Christians.”

    They, CBE, only desires “Equality” for those with the “Titles.”
    Those with the Power, Profit, and Prestige, that comes with the “Titles.”

    CBE is interested in women being able to be…
    pastor/leader/reverends in “Todays Abusive Religious System.”
    And being considered “Equal” with men pastor/leaders/reverends.

    “Titles” that do NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.

    In my experience…
    CBE Has achieved equality with
    Comps, Ultra- Authoritarians, TGC, Acts 29, and the CBMW, I’ve debated.

    When they, CBE, TGC, Acts 29, and CBMW…
    Do NOT like to answer the simple questions asked…

    They ban you, delete you, or moderate you for eternity. 😉

    NOT much difference between CBE and the bad boys…

    They ALL want the…
    Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, Reputation, Celebrity…
    That comes with Today’s “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend…

    “Titles” that separate the brethren…
    “Titles” that * Elevate* one brethren over another brethren…
    “Titles” that are used to “Control,” and “Manipulate,” the brethren…

    “Titles,” Separate.
    “Titles,” Elevate.
    “Titles,” will be used to “Control,” and “Manipulate.”

    “Titles” that do NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.

    Like

  81. Looking at the damage done by “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”
    Making folks “Tithe,” pay for protection, bow to the organization…

    The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation…
    That the IRS calls church.

    CBE, is like someone complaining…

    What’s with all these “God Fathers?”
    Being the “Head” of crime families?

    Women should be able to “Lead” crime families too. 😉

    Like

  82. “Two issues here. Was Junia(s) male or female? Seems to be a consensus now that Junia was female, although not with absolute certainty.”

    Lol! You have been reading Piper or Grudem or someone who quoted their “academic research” which consisted of quoting Epiphanius! The problem with Epiphanius that is in the same document he declares Priscia (Priscilla) is also a male, too! Piper and Grudem conveniently left out that part. So typical.

    This “church father” also wrote and believed that “the female sex is easily seduced, weak and without much understanding. The Devil seeks to vomit out this disorder through women… ”

    On the other hand, Chrysostom, no friend of women, wrote in a homily in the 4th century concerning Romans 16.7 he “noted: ‘Oh how great is the devotion of this women that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!

    There is a ton of research out there now including computer data bases that collected every variation of Junia in Greek. No evidence yet it or any variation was used for a man.

    So you can be at least 99℅ certain about the name and focus on your other arguments. Lol!

    Like

  83. “May I ask you to have a look on the “Prayer Request” section of SSB? (One of the last entries, please?)”

    Consider it done.

    Like

  84. “Because goodness knows, emotion is the real evil here!”

    Emotions are not the problem. The coolest calculating serial killer is acting on emotion. Those sorts of emotions are acceptable until you find out about the killing part then they are creepy.

    So what is up with the weeping, tearing garments and such we read about from the Jews? Unseemly? Unapproved emotions?

    I personally think victims should have strong advocates until they are strong enough to stand up to the mealy mouthed “Christian” arbiters of proper communication and emotions.

    When the victims response is more important than the evil done, we are no longer in Jesus land. We are in the evil ones domain. Always remember that!

    Like

  85. Amos, I’m glad I’m not the only believer to share these views.

    I was accosted in the mall by a Mormon evangelist today. Bless his little zealous heart.

    I gave him 20 minutes of my time. Then I asked his age (he was 20) and asked who he was elder to.

    He looked puzzled by my question.

    I said, “considering the word elder means aged person, that would mean you cannot be an elder to me because I am your elder”.

    He didn’t get my point.

    But I had fun anyways.

    Liked by 1 person

  86. A. Amos Love said

    CBE, is like someone complaining…

    What’s with all these “God Fathers?”
    Being the “Head” of crime families?

    Women should be able to “Lead” crime families too.

    I think that’s a bizarre and skewed way of looking at things.

    As much as I distrust most churches and am loathe to defend “church” in general, I’m sure there must be some ‘okay,’ non-abusive ones out there some where.

    And in such churches, why should positions views as “leadership” ones be denied to women?

    I know more and more people are dropping out of churches, but I don’t think the practice of attending a Brick and Mortar with a Steeple on it is ever entirely going to vanish. What about those who still attend them?

    Also I think examining that question can maybe get to the root of sexism among Christians. Why do so many assume only men can or should be leaders?

    A. Amos Love said,

    They, CBE, only desires “Equality” for those with the “Titles.”

    CBE is interested in women being able to be…
    pastor/leader/reverends in “Todays Abusive Religious System.”
    And being considered “Equal” with men pastor/leaders/reverends.

    Do you refer to the site CBE (Christians For Biblical Equality)?

    If so, that is not true.

    Do you even visit their site and read their material? Because I’m pretty familiar with their site and have read a lot of their content.

    CBE also writes about educational opportunities for girls (or lack there-of), how complementarian male headship teachings foster or enable domestic violence, and other topics that have nothing to do with pastor positions.

    That position you are saying is true for the organization called CBE is not even true for most Christians who believe in the general concept of “biblical equality.”

    Jeezum crow, what a way to misrepresent a group of people who are rightly disturbed at the sexism they see running amok among Christianity.

    Amos said,

    When they, CBE, TGC, Acts 29, and CBMW…
    Do NOT like to answer the simple questions asked…

    They ban you, delete you, or moderate you for eternity

    With all due respect, that is because your favorite ax to grind, which is, whether “pastor” or other titles, is a biblical position or not, is not totally pertinent to gender issues in the church, which is what a site such as CBE is about.

    It was like Ed on a previous thread on this blog arguing for days and days about how pastors don’t have true authority, so he argued, women church members being exploited by pastors is not a form of abuse.

    It’s a view that is so focused on one topic (the questionable nature of pastoral authority) that it misses the forest for the trees.

    A. Amos Love said,

    They ALL want the…
    Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, Reputation, Celebrity…
    That comes with Today’s “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend…

    You do realize that not everyone who wants to work as a preacher is a power hungry narcissist, right?

    There are some women who feel God calls them in that position, and/or they find it interesting and want to help people from that position.

    Are you familiar with blogger Jory Micah? I don’t get the impression from her that she’s a power crazed loon.

    Even if it were true that every single person on the planet who seeks a pastoral job is interested in ego or what have you, why should such positions only be open to men?

    I am far more concerned with the underlying sexism going on among Christians than in the debatable question if such jobs are “biblical” or not.

    Like

  87. Lydia said,

    I personally think victims should have strong advocates until they are strong enough to stand up to the mealy mouthed “Christian” arbiters of proper communication and emotions.

    IIRC, Mary or Martha blew up in hurt or anger at Jesus for allowing their brother Lazarus to die.

    Jesus took it in stride. I don’t recall Jesus telling the sister who bit his head off, “Now now, you’re showing too much emotion. Consider calming down first, and then I will listen to your concerns.”

    I do want to reiterate that to a point /b> I agree with KAS but depending on the context or time or place.

    I don’t have a problem with wounded victims who come on to a blog like this crying or raging and yelling. I understand when people have been hurt by people or a church system, they are going to be emotional and want to cry or yell, and I am fine with that.

    But as far as interpersonal squabbles go – I’ve had people online scream at me because I disagree with them, that, I don’t know, the Rolling Stones are the greatest band ever, or what have you, and I have asked them if they tone down the insults and rage I might be able to hear their views better.

    So, I can see where there is a time and place for a person to watch how they state their views, if they want to be more readily heard, but I don’t think a spiritual or domestic abuse survivor blog is necessarily the place to insist on Tone Policing (depending on the context and particulars involved).

    Like

  88. Daisy, I apologize. I can see how my many comments look like disagreement when they really aren’t. The reason I I think an advocate is good is because I know the people we are talking about aren’t going to change soon. And they end up heaping more abuse and burden on people who don’t deserve it simply because they did not communicate in an approved way.
    The advocate can handle the arrows.

    It is more about protecting already vulnerable victims than trying to please the Pharisees. I should have been more clear.

    Like

  89. Toiler! You said it! I have to write a difficult letter to a family member and I have spent weeks thinking what to say. Would you mind if I use your words, the post that says I hope you never have to walk a mile in the shoes of those you think should just get past it?

    Like

  90. You have been reading Piper or Grudem or someone who quoted their “academic research

    Wrong!! I’ve read Daniel Wallace on this, someone I have great respect for, and who does not appear to have an axe to grind on the Junia issue (or indeed other complementarian issues). He co-wrote a piece on this with Michael Burer, who recently did an extensive review of the extant Greek texts.

    If you lay the arguing about the Greek grammar aside for a moment, from just reading in English I’m inclined to think Andronicus and Junia were a husband and wife team, much as Aquilla and Priscilla. Both being well-know as apostles or to the apostles makes sense.

    Warnock hosted Grudem on this topic (I haven’t read much of this, it is not exactly life and death, is it), but I had to smile when Warnock complained at the tone of the evangelical feminist comments – attacking Grudem’s character rather than his views and doctrine!

    Like

  91. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/about/

    For those of you wondering about KAS’ reference to Warnock. I used to read him in the early days when he was the darling of the McArthur Pyro crowd even though he seemed more charismatic. He seems to be part of the growing patriarchal Christian movement in England. SGM, Virgos, etc.

    Anyone affirming Grudem’s ST must also affirm ESS (because that is what it is) which puts Warnock in the category of affirming Jesus Christ as a lesser god in the Trinity to puff up his own caste system bonafides. Sad stuff. And it is so pervasive because of Grudem’s ST that even most seminary grads have no clue that is what they were taught. To them, it is the normal now. A Trinitarian pecking order with the whole “roles” shtick to go with it. For 10 years now, I have asked ESS’ers about the Holy Spirit and…..crickets.

    Another thing, KAS. Your original comment said Junia could be a male. then you come back and move the goal posts.

    Like

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