Domestic Violence, Saeed Abedini, Women and the Church

Saeed Abedini: Files for Divorce, Seeks Money for New Ministry, and Recently Arrested for Violating Restraining Order

Saeed Abedini, Naghmeh, Divorce, Domestic Violence, Arrest for Violating Restraining Order, Seeks Money for New Ministry

Pastor Saeed Abedini Divorce Arrest Domestic Violence Nahmeh
Photo from Facebook

Yesterday, Naghmeh Abedini, wife of Saeed Abedini, reported on Facebook that her husband had filed for divorce.

It is with a heavy and broken heart that I inform all of you who have prayed and wept with our family the last few years, that Saeed has rejected counseling for anger and abuse and has filed for a divorce. There will be a time to share more fully, but for now, we appreciate your prayers.

Today, Saeed Abedini released a statement about the divorce on his Facebook page:

“My heart is deeply saddened to be sharing the news that Naghmeh and I will be divorcing. She has been my wife of 12 years and she will always be the wonderful mother to our amazing children. While we have experienced struggles, she, along with my children will forever be my heroes, both for what they had to deal with during my imprisonment in Iran and for how they never gave up fighting for my freedom.

There are no words to describe the ongoing effect of the trauma I experienced and my family has experienced both during and in the aftermath of my imprisonment. We are different people, and we are hurting people. It pains me to say, but I have decided the only path toward healing is apart, and not together. Sometimes as Christians, we experience pain for which there is no explanation in this life, yet we must continue, even in the hardest of times, to look to Christ for strength, grace and comfort. I am trying to do that now, and I know Nagmeh is doing the same. Even in our disappointments, when we don’t have all the answers, Christ is still Lord. He is good now and forever.” (Source)

It was also reported in the Idaho Statesman that earlier this year, Saeed Abedini was arrested for violation of restraining order:

Earlier this year, Saeed Abedina [sic] was arrested on three misdemeanor counts of violation of a restraining order. Those Ada County cases are still going through the court system.

Meanwhile, Saeed Abedini has moved away from Idaho, away from his children and is starting up a new ministry (Facebook note):

Dear Friends

As you all know I was in prison for more than 3/5 years because Jesus met me 16 years ago and told me ; ” Iam coming back soon Go to preach my Gospel ” and until today I didn’t disobey him and I will never disobey Him.

I want to start a preaching Ministry to hundred thousand people and for this new start, I don’t have any financial support yet.

I need to have 200 people in 2 months who can support my ministry monthly with donating just 20 $ each month to start. You can be one of them, specially if you prayed for me for years.

I need your help to make Jesus known and I can’t do it without your help.

Please send me a massage [sic] and your email in my inbox which I can know when our team is completed to start and send you a news letter.

With the new public information about Saeed Abedini’s arrest for violating his restraining order, it is looking very bad for Saeed; and Naghmeh’s claims of domestic violence are becoming evident with his recent documented behavior and earlier in 2007 when she originally filed charges against Saeed.
I took a gander at Saeed Abedini’s Facebook page. This is no humble man. You see picture after picture of him. He complains about the US not paying his airfare after being released from prison. That seems to be an odd complaint considering he was able to come home via private jet and landed near Billy Graham’s retreat center where he stayed for a time.
Apparently, his ministry comes before his children or seeking counseling. Is this how God would want people in ministry to behave? I think not. Saeed is and has been a fraud. He answers to no one. Maybe now Naghmeh and her children can move on with their lives i peace. My thoughts and prayers are with her and their children.

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97 thoughts on “Saeed Abedini: Files for Divorce, Seeks Money for New Ministry, and Recently Arrested for Violating Restraining Order”

  1. I wish Naghmeh Abedini well.

    I can’t believe he’s asking for money to start a new ministry. I really think guys like this (and Driscoll, Noble, Tullian, etc) should stay out of any career that has anything to do with Christianity.

    Liked by 7 people

  2. Very sad. “For nothing is concealed that will not be uncovered, or hidden that will not be made known.” Matt. 10:26

    Question: Has this ruined anyone else for Voice of the Martyrs type ministries?

    Liked by 3 people

  3. That’s a great question, Loura. We have still yet to see one picture of him when he was allegedly not treated well in prison. Those “witnesses” were his sister or parents.


  4. I have decided the only path toward healing is apart, and not together.

    “I” have decided. Ok, then. This is probably best for his wife,but i hope no one is duped into giving him money.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. @JA, How did VOM find him to begin with, and were they duped as well? Seems hard to believe.


  6. Yep, showers everyone with wonderful words of praise for the wife and children he is dumping “so he can get on with the Lord’s ministry” to paraphrase him. These guys are all the same. Let’s see, why doesn’t he go back to school and learn a job skill? Oh, because religion is so much easier and there is more money potential in it without even really working. And there are always, it seems, people ready to send money to these con men. I find the announcement of his divorcing her to be good news and another step in her path to real freedom and life. It isn’t going to go well for him.

    Liked by 6 people

  7. Jeff, on his Facebook page, some people are challenging him about his marriage and getting his act together. But for the most part, he still has quite a following which is beyond me.


  8. Lundy Bancroft provides some insight into what it looks like for an abuser to do the real work of changing and why it seldom happens.

    “Well, he can change, but what ends up mattering much more in the life of a woman who has a destructive partner is “Will he change? And we know that he won’t change, for example, unless he completely admits to all the things he’s done. If he’s continuing to deny a lot of the ways he has torn her down, or the ways he’s been violent or the ways he’s bullied her about sex — if he’s still denying part or all of what he did he’s not going to change. ”

    for more, see

    Liked by 5 people

  9. This makes me so angry. I wish we could find the police reports from earlier this year. I would love to post them on his financial scheming FB post.

    Liked by 5 people

  10. Franklin Graham keeps aligning himself with and supporting sketchier and sketchier pastors. He brings shame on his family name. He’s totally in bed with Gateway Church. He’s using Gateway’s PR and Crisis Management guy Lawrence Swicegood, as his front man for his Decision America Tour. Lawrence was with Franklin when they swept Saeed away to plan his crisis management/re-entry to ministry. Franklin has recently spoken at Gateway both on weekend services and at the Pastor Conferences. It’s clear that Franklin is enjoying his partnerships with Robert Morris and other unscrupulous televangelists. Of course, Franklin does have an excessive pay package (he makes $662,000 from Samaritan’s Purse and another $258,000 from Billy Graham Evangelical Assoc, plus all his speaking fees – which are likely around the Robert Morris range of additional hundreds of thousands a year). At that income level is he really going to want to hang around with humble pastors who don’t own their own private jets and multiple vacation homes?

    And why does Saeed need to “start a preaching Ministry to (a) hundred thousand people”? Where does it say in the Bible that a pastor should move away from their wife and young children so they can become a celebrity pastor? I’m assuming he uses the same Celebrity Pastor Translation Bible that Tullian Tchividjian uses. Why is it not worth his efforts to minister a small flock? Is it Franklin and Swicegood who put this 100,000 flock number in Saeed’s head? What kind of message does this send to young pastors? Maybe Ex-Pastors can run a support article for him.

    Liked by 6 people

  11. I think in the end, this will work for the good of Nagmeh and her children. I don’t think we’ve heard the last of troubles coming from this man.

    Off topic, Govpappy, did you leave Twitter? I have enjoyed your page there.


  12. If we should be financially supporting anyone in this mess it is his abandoned wife and children.

    ‘Biblically speaking’ (rolls eyes)

    What a charlatan.

    Infidel also comes to mind.

    Also, biblically speaking.

    Liked by 5 people

  13. Didn’t his wife say not only was he abusive but he was addicted to porn? Also, I never have sympathy for anyone who goes abroad as a ‘missionary’ and breaks that country’s law then cries persecution when arrested. Somehow this makes him a hero in the eyes of non-reasoning christians and the money pours in!

    Liked by 4 people

  14. @Kathi, 8:11pm – Only problem with that idea is anyone who tries to post that will be blocked and the post deleted before enough people have a chance to see it. Probably better to make a blog post about the reports and then tweet the link to get the info out there.


  15. … if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church?

    Doesn’t that settle it?

    I didn’t realise until his release why a Calvary Chapel I had been visiting regularly were praying for his release, and for his family. I didn’t realise he was one of their own. I hope they will continue to keep him and his estranged family in their prayers, so that at some point some good may yet come out of this sorry story.

    Seeing as how he has no biblical grounds for divorce (as far as I can see), I don’t see how he could ever get up in front of a congregation and preach from the bible.


  16. cookingwithdogs – That may happen, but honestly, I’m amazed that the comments that are on that post have remained. I wonder if Saeed understands social media. Or, he fully understands and will use the negative comments in some way to claim that he’s still persecuted.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. What KAS says. If a man does not manage his own household well, he has no business as a leader in the church. We have a variety of theological perspectives here, but I would hope that we could agree on this.

    From both a theological and legal point of view, his filing is interesting. I am guessing that his theological “justification” for this is that since his wife has refused to reconcile without some preconditions, she has abandoned him. I don’t buy it, but this is my nickel bet. Legally, it almost seems like a “first strike” to attempt to get a better settlement both in the divorce and violation of restraining orders proceedings. I have no idea of whether this generally works, but I’ve seen the tactic.

    Finally, it’s a (insert expletives here) shame that the churches he’s been affiliated with are not doing more to deal with this situation. Granted, a lot of churches do a (insert expletives here) job with Matthew 18’s reconciliation process, but at times believers do depend on whether their leaders implement this well or not.


  18. I noted that Saeed is suggesting $20 donations from 200 people for 2 months to kick off his ministry. Just me and my little calculator have figured out that he is suggesting that $48000 per month would make a nice little starter package. And if those 200 keep it up for a year that would be over 1/2 million $$. Guess the Graham formula is his pattern!!

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Well wife beaters aren’t preempted from “serving ” as a pastor anymore than a child molester or rapist. I’m sure Sovereign Graceless would welcome him into their 9 month pastor’s college. Any 9 Marks (of the BEAST 666) church would. The Pride Pipper, Mark devers and the bald headed bastard previously known scumbag for covering up child rape would all probably issue statements affirming his fitness for ministry.

    With support like that from the throne of the Reformed Pope wantabes , how can you lowly people (that only read the Bible and miss out on divine messages telling you to commit criminal conduct) dare question GOD’S APPOINTED messengers !

    See what you started Julie ANNE, and now all sorts of non-appointed people like Kathi , Daisy, and every Barbra and Jenny out there are questioning these self appointed Bishops and interfering with their businesses. Hey these multi-millionaire heretics have books to sell and can’t handle being questioned by a bunch of women.

    There will be a book ( forward NOT BY Kathi) coming out soon to address this, guaranteed : When women question GOD by questioning his anointed high priests.

    Liked by 5 people

  20. What type of “massage” does this fraudster want us to send him? I find his line, this one, extremely funny, for a reason or two (nothing to do with his command of English). It’s just that it has SCAM written all over it, and i can’t imagine who might fall for it: “Please send me a massage [sic] and your email in my inbox.” Well, okay, where else am I supposed to send the email?
    On second thoughts, this guy ain’t gonna get no dollar from me. No. Never. Try Nigeria, they LOVE schemes and scams.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. From both a theological and legal point of view, his filing is interesting. I am guessing that his theological “justification” for this is that since his wife has refused to reconcile without some preconditions, she has abandoned him.

    Some awful person at his Facebook page tried to say that nagmeh must have cheated, because otherwise surely this awesome manogawd would never have filed! headdesk

    People tried to set her right in the comments but I don’t think it took.

    I don’t know why he filed, I think he just thinks he can make bank and then wants to move on to the next target probably.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Lea, point well taken on being cautious on the motivation. Regarding the Facebook comments, the nicest thing I can say is that even if what that person said were 100% true, we would still conclude that Mr. Abedini ought to take a break from vocational ministry, simply to recover.

    Let’s not go to the less charitable things I could say.


  23. Can you say, “narcissist?” The man has a grandiose view of himself, refuses to accept any responsibility for his situation, believes others owe him, feels entitled to violate the law because of his own personal “needs,” endeavors to cover his tracks by presenting a false public image and publicly declaring his own righteousness, and uses language that clearly reflects a deep denial about the affects of his behavior on others.

    What a guy. I think I’ll send my donation to someone I can trust, thank you very much.

    Liked by 5 people

  24. KAS on October 6, 2016 at 4:24 AM

    “Seeing as how he has no biblical grounds for divorce (as far as I can see), I don’t see how he could ever get up in front of a congregation and preach from the bible.”

    It’s easy when you are self appointed . . .

    Liked by 1 person

  25. My heart goes out to Nagmeh and the kids. How heart breaking it must be to know that your husband/father has no interest in bettering himself in order to stay with his family.

    If I were a betting woman, I would guess that he may already have someone else on the side and is married again within three months after his divorce. He lacks the capacity to fully understand how much hurt he has caused.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Scott – I agree that these people are massive problems, despise what they do and promote, because for the most part it’s either themselves or a false Jesus; personally think the crowd you cite is more dangerous than any wiccan, atheist, satanist, what-have-you, because those groups don’t pervert the truth and present a false picture of our Lord, but there ought to be a better way of putting it.

    And for the record, there are times I’ve put it pretty acerbically as well, but “bald headed b——“, “scumbag”, “9Marks (of the Beast 666)”, it’s just going too far.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. My heart goes out to this family. He truly doesn’t understand the devastation this will cause him or his family. He will never be the same. His actions will be a continual ripping away at his heart. His family will hurt beyond measure but by God’s grace they will not only survive and will sense the loving hand of God touching them in their most difficult time. Even with God’s forgiveness his soul will have a bleeding opening wound that will heal but a scar that will be like a cancer eating his brain. Daily he will think of his wife and children and come to the conclusion one day that his living for self was the greatest sin against not all only his family but against his triune God. Please Mr. Abedini, turn back to your wife and children. You don’t what to have this on your conscience. It never goes away. As a fallen brother in the Lord I employ you to not make this action permanent. Regret will be with you until the day you die and your ministry will be tainted by your own sin. You say you want to be a faithful man, then agree with God when He says He hates divorce.


  28. Abusive, porn watching, diploma mill “pastor” files for divorce, and panhandles for his new “ministry.”

    My heart bleeds for Naghmeh. I’m sure none of this was her hope and dream for her life. I hope she continues to stay safe, since Saeed has no problem violating restraining orders.

    Liked by 3 people

  29. Saeed’s statement smells very, very fishy to me. I heard similar things from my cheating ex-wife as she went down the road to divorce (while hiding her relationship with the Other Man).

    Plus, notice that he is already “apart”–i.e. separated—but cites that as necessary to heal? He ought to be very healed if being apart from Naghmeh is the real need. Besides, you don’t need a divorce to be “apart.” But you DO need a divorce to remarry.

    I am NOT saying Saeed is cheating. What I AM saying is something seems fishy in his statement.

    Liked by 3 people

  30. “Question: Has this ruined anyone else for Voice of the Martyrs type ministries?’ – Loura Shares A Story

    I was already soured on V.O.M. since learning that the head of it, a few years ago, was a serial pedophile.

    Liked by 2 people

  31. If a relationship is going to heal,, couples need to start from scratch and pursue emotional connection.

    I don’t know all the details of this split, but my impression is one or both didn’t exercise enough vision or meditated long enough to find solutions. If one or both verbally yelled in a way where one or both were force feeding their “will” on each other,, they were driving a wedge even deeper as they weren’t stimulating one another mind.

    They didn’t accept the way one another was wired enough, forgetting that being calm and taking the time to get inside one another’s mind so they can provide a soothing compromise so they can embrace one another’s individualisms’.

    My impression is Society and even Churches do not focus or mentor couples how navigate through difficulties, instead of treating a snag as an opportunity to bond and understand and love each other more, more aggressive approaches like abuse or in this case taking it further and divorce.


  32. Mark,

    My impression is Society and even Churches do not focus or mentor couples how navigate through difficulties, instead of treating a snag as an opportunity to bond and understand and love each other more…

    “Snag”? You’re labelling abusive behaviour as a “snag”? Yikes…

    Liked by 1 person

  33. “Snag”? You’re labelling abusive behaviour as a “snag”?

    Yeah. Maybe Mark missed a memo or something? I hope that’s it.

    I think Saeed just wants a new wife, personally. Good news for her.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Julie, Japan, Lea,,

    Not only is it an abuse issue,,, It is a Love issue,,

    I don’t dispute your words,, when it comes to abuse,, I have endured spiritual abuse myself,, The performer of the Abuser didn’t love his Congregation but instead his methodology and really is a product of bad mentoring or no mentoring at all.

    All of you missed my point,, Shaking my head about the ridiculous “missed the memo” comment..

    Lea,, I’m not going to spar with you, Couples who aren’t emotionally connected shouldn’t get married.

    I wrote this to my daughter who proclaimed to have discovered “connection” after knowing her (now ex) boyfriend for 2 weeks.

    “Infatuation, Attraction and Intimacy can create a powerful euphoric rush strong enough to camouflage Love..but to be in Love, Lovers need to embrace the same wants, goals and interests without colliding but instead find compromise…

    Then Lovers need to look into each others eyes deep enough to discover their heart,,and like how they are mutually wired,,,to hurt when the other is in pain,,find joy when the other is happy,,,not saying hurtful and mean things,,,respect one another’s sensitivities,,,,before lovers can begin to discover love,,,

    Emotionally connecting enough to mutually stimulate one another’s minds,,

    ,,,rejection, mental and physical abuse,,,there is no love”


  35. Mark, I’m still wondering what exactly you meant by a “snag”, and what bearing you think it has on Saaed’s marriage. I hope you realize that abusive behaviour isn’t caused or provoked by external circumstances, or by any action of the victim. It comes from the heart of the abuser and nowhere else.


  36. Mark, your words on ‘love’ sound really nice but this isn’t my experience.

    I married after knowing my husband for a very short time. We married in our late twenties and I can tell you that I didn’t know him long enough (nor does he share his heart enough) for me to experience all you wrote about being necessary for it to work.

    We did however bond over our past crap dating experiences and our mutual desire to have a family and love God first. And to not ‘screw each other over’. This was our commitment and we are sincere people.

    In ways it was more of a self arranged marriage, very much void of butterfly feelings.

    We are still married and have a marriage free from abuse if any form.

    I imagine there are many marriages where what you describe is present, and yet accompanied by black and blue bruises and many tears.

    If there are marriages where partners can go gooey eyed all day long and manage to not abuse each other… more power to them.

    But I suspect that these marriages are the 1%. And probably found on the screen than in real life.


  37. The more history of this story comes out the more Saaed exhibited narcissistic and even sociopathic behavior past and present. She and the children are better off with divorce. Who ever marries him knowing any of it, is asking for it.

    These types are only capable of loving themselves. Pray for the children. A dad like that is a horror.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Japan,
    if you find the word snag as offensive or you think I;m minimizing the abuse that occurs in marriages or even in churches because I used the word snag, you are mistaken.

    I will say I wish now I used a more aggressive word to those who are offended by me using the word snag.,, like hard, confusing, difficult, problem.

    In my profession a snag causes extensive damage.

    But also if a snag is remedied quick enough there is less damage.

    I went and took liberty to look up the synonyms of the word snag which include aggressive words like “difficult” or “obstruction”, “hard” and less aggressive “obstacle” and also the least aggressive “glitch” or “hurdle”.

    hard, confusing, difficult, a problem.


  39. Lea,, I’m not going to spar with you, Couples who aren’t emotionally connected shouldn’t get married.

    I have no idea where you are coming from here. Abuse isn’t about not being emotionally connected. Certainly there is a lack of true love in the selfless sense where its present but likewise it isn’t caused by lack of love.

    I’m sure all of us know people we don’t particularly like and yet we manage not to attack them.


  40. Salty,,

    I admire your courage to admitting your own personal circumstances,, With divorce rates equally 50% I’m sure there are a lot of existing marriages that lack connection or even love and that are abusive as one or both are mentally or physically abusive by force feeding one another’s will on each other,, rather than accepting and embracing each others’ and individualism and sensitivities.

    No different in some cases with a Hyper-Calvinist (Fred Phelps type) force feeding his doctrine on those that don’t acknowledge or accept Hyper Calvinist Doctrine or to people like me who refer their methodologies as sin.

    I will say however that there are more than 1 % of marriages where couples are emotionally connected together. (or “gooey eyed” if that is your definition of emotionally connected)

    I don’t know if it is possible for you and your husband to pursue and achieve that gooey eyed feeling. But if you and he are anything like me and my spouse you can,.. as it hasn’t been a bed of roses for us.

    When I wrote a note to my own spontaneous and emotionally free spirited daughter about connection,, it was a warning for her, as she has a tendency to get into relationships with men who are abusive after they get to know one another. But it was also a way for her to meditate so she could have the mental ammunition to identify “mutual love”..

    I’ve also witnessed Parents who literally manipulated their daughter to get married so they could hide the fact that their daughter was sleeping with a man, They never considered that their daughter didn’t love him and he didn’t love her,, who later turned out to be an extremely abusive man. This ended badly.. you have no idea.

    I have also countered a good friend of mine who told me his son was living in sin and that he needs to marry his girlfriend.. which I suggested if they don’t love each other they shouldn’t get married. As it turned out his son and girlfriend split up. I have a hunch he later conveyed to his son not to marry a woman he doesn’t love.

    We live in a society that isn’t mentoring couples enough to understand or pursue what it means to be “emotionally connected” I know I didn’t even know the term even existed and what it meant until I meditated and prayed long after I got married.

    How could’ve I been mentored to understand it, my own parents didn’t even get married or live together?


  41. :Lea,,

    You wrote to me,,, “Snag”? You’re labelling abusive behaviour as a “snag”?

    Yeah. Maybe Mark missed a memo or something? I hope that’s it.

    I never labeled anything,, rather than seeking clarification you chose to be snarky with me,, which I take exception.

    I suggested when couples get into a bad situation and combat “snags” that it is best to find solutions and take the high road,of treating a problem before it magnifies as I quoted “an opportunity to bond and understand and love each other more, more aggressive approaches like abuse or in this case taking it further and divorce”.
    (I somehow didn’t include toward the end of the sentence “instead of taking” more aggressive approaches,,,,)

    Lea,, as a child I grew in an abusive and dysfunctional family,, I didn’t identify any love between my mom and her husband,, but instead they force fed their ideologies on each other, it was hell to watch.. instead of working it out and being sensitive to each other they mentally abused one another, it was mutual and wasn’t one sided…

    The yelling didn’t stimulate one another’s mind, they didn’t love each other and should’ve never gotten married.


  42. Mark, it strikes me that the reason you’re getting a lot of pushback (I’d say rightly for the most part) from others here is that whatever the truth behind the mess of allegations in this sad case, what is at stake here is not primarily relationship issues. The issues are, rather, sin issues. Whether it is wrong or not, for example, to use porn on the internet does not depend on whether I am married, or to whom. It is wrong. Same thing with assault. Same thing, really, with claiming the mantle of the shepherd/pastor when one is estranged from one’s family.


  43. they mentally abused one another, it was mutual and wasn’t one sided…

    Perhaps that was true in that case, maybe the problem is you are thinking it is true in every case? It isn’t. It takes two to make a relationship, only one to break it.

    I suggested when couples get into a bad situation and combat “snags” that it is best to find solutions and take the high road..

    Forgive me if I am ‘snarky’ but once the ‘snag’ is physical abuse, you’ve gotten a bit beyond this stage. The problem is that Saeed is abusive. She wants him not to be. He doesn’t want to change. So he’s leaving his wife. All this talk about emotional connection doesn’t seem to fit.

    Liked by 2 people

  44. “I’m sure all of us know people we don’t particularly like and yet we manage not to attack them.”

    Yes. And we all have issues but that does not mean we view porn, either.

    I think some don’t get the roots of abuse and what feeds it. One does not “bond” with abusers. One gets away. Part of the problem is few understand the dynamics of abuse and realize the only logical response is to get away.

    And a total misunderstanding of love, it seems.


  45. Mark,

    “I don’t know if it is possible for you and your husband to pursue and achieve that gooey eyed feeling. But if you and he are anything like me and my spouse you can,.. as it hasn’t been a bed of roses for us.”

    The warm and fuzzies no doubt will return.

    We have this small problem (literally) who I like to call ‘the romance killer’.

    Our 12 month old 👶🏼

    Don’t get me wrong… my husband and I do smile at each other and share “I love you” moments.

    But when you have small kids there’s not much time for romance.


  46. Thank you Lea (Bubba please read,, I agree, Sin is the root of abuse and lack of love)

    I know you thought me using the word snag, was minimizing the abuse that occurred in Saeed’s house,, I already admitted to Japan, that I wish I had chosen a more aggressive word as I didn’t want the word “Snag” to be topic,, but rather avoiding, detecting and preventing abuse, divorce or bad marriages from occurring in the first place.

    Snag has several meanings,, from “difficulties” to “glitch” and because you don’t know me, my impression you felt “glitch” was what I was suggesting thereby giving you an appropriate reason to get snarky rather than seek clarification. Even so I see minor glitches expand into an ocean of abuse and toxic colliding, I know what I’m talking about as I grew up with it.

    Trust me I’m concerned for Saeeds’ wife and kids because now they are trapped in a toxic triangle that was preventable. Saeeds’ wife is probably the same age as my daughter who also has been abused.

    Jumping to conclusions and snarky comments is what ignites feuds in marriage relationships to magnify out of thin air, something trivial and turn it into major problem. (which I’m sure Saeed did to his wife and his kids)
    But it is also a problem that occurs in public.

    Judging by all the divorce in Churches, Embracing Love and Avoiding Abuse is something not being taught in churches,, how about teaching good manners or preventing bullying or in general Loving one another even in public schools.

    Churches are failing, in general because many couples who divorce aren’t being mentored in knowing how to communicate with each other and really never went inside one another’s mind, like a revolving door to see one another’s heart and discover true love. before they decide to get married not knowing if they are entering an abusive situation.
    And usually its the women that are being abused,, but not always..

    Really how often is Love and Abuse being taught behind the pulpit in churches?

    It is too late once the abuse has happened.

    So my point is “How do we prevent or at least avoid abuse and divorce from happening in the first place? Verbal toxic collisions shows me a serious lack of Love.

    Lack of Love or no Love at all,, already stimulates a mentally empty and abusive scenario in a marriage..

    This thread rightly exposes abuse,, I want more than seeing a few stitches closing wounds,, I want this thread to go straight to the root so people like my own daughter can avoid being abused in the first place.

    What needs to done that isn’t happening (including not enough jail time) is women (and some men) aren’t recognizing abusive personalities before relationships are consummated or before women are getting a chance to really see how their man is wired or really not understanding how they themselves are wired either. Type A and Type B stuff which allows accepting one another instead of forcing their will on each other.

    Couples aren’t getting to know each other to see if they actually know if what they are feeling is infatuation or love or finding If he is into porn,, which any woman should bring up before deciding they want to spend the rest of their life together.

    Having a 31 year old daughter physically abused several times by a couple of different partners involved a lot of pain staking meditation on my part when she approached me with tears in her eyes.
    Luckily she didn’t marry those guys or any man as she is developing a better understanding of who she is and what she wants and doesn’t want in a man. She nearly got married on 3 different occasions to men that deep down she didn’t know.

    I’m more focused on avoiding abuse and I hope this thread will be equally focused on educating women like my daughter who have never been mentored to avoid abusive men or in truth actually teach to have to understand what it really means to be in Love.

    But even after a relationship has started,, when problems occur I see a lot of times those problems, become magnified simply because of the way a man and woman are communicating with each other..

    Look what happen here between you and I and the way we are communicating,, I use the word snag referring to big or small issues that occurs in most relationships that aren’t being worked out in marriages in general, as I wasn’t isolating Saeed and you get snarky,, for which you have apologized and I accept..

    I’m sorry that I seemed insensitive to you


  47. Mark, your views are well meaning but have the opposite effect when dealing with sociopathic or narcissistic individuals. I think Saaed has demonstrated those tendencies in words and deeds.


  48. lydia00,,

    You are correct,, I feel everything you have Saeed being abusive has been well covered in this thread,, and yet people like Saeed continue to abuse and marriages are breaking up,,

    Articles like these need to be written, people like Saeed need to be exposed.

    But the abuse still continues. Why? Divorce continues,, Why? And it is the “Why” is what puzzles me.

    Aside from love not being emphasized enough in our churches, our churches are not teaching how we should treat others,, manners,, rudeness and abuse…or how lovers should stimulate one another’s mind or how to communicate when a marriage is in trouble.

    I found this site as a result of my former Pastor has left a footprint of his secret Hyper-Calvinist abusive methodology that won’t go away and I partly blame myself for not being informed.

    Then with my own daughter being abused, I realized that we can talk and expose abusers all we want, Abusers aren’t going away and a new generation of abusers are cropping up.

    Is there a Moral high ground that needs to be instilled that isn’t being taught,, I’m not isolating sex before marriage,,, I’m talking about how to identify Love or how to identify an abuser.

    Which involves time and being in a microwave society when it comes to hooking up with someone is making our daughters at risk and will continue to make them vulnerable.


  49. Mark, it cannot be easy or profitable to abuse or ignore it. Speaking of love and manners to a abusive narcissists or sociopath only enables. How many DV abusers do you know show their true colors in public? At work? They are often charming and even successful. Few believe they are that bad. They are often good at grooming those in their circle.

    Remember, abuse comes from an entitlement mentality.

    What we can do instead is teach people not to put up with being devalued in that way.

    Your way simply prolongs the abuse and plays into abusers tactics. Churches are notorious for this. They are full of KAS’.


  50. Hi Mark
    I second what Lydia00 said in her latest reply to you.

    If we are to prevent abuse, the non-abusers in the community need to become eductated about the tactics and mentality of abusers and the sublte signs of abuse when the abuser is displaying his (or sometimes her) public face, the charm, the ‘reasonableness’, the pseudo Christianity and pseudo virtuousness… and the feigned repentance when he is finally caught out.

    And we also need as a society to become less sexist. The non-abusive men in society and the chruch particuraly need to become wise and bolder in standing up and denouncing all the subtle and not so subtle sexism which pervades the culture.

    As Lundy Bancroft says, we will never be able to PREVENT abuse completely, but we can make it much harder for abusive men to get away with being abusive.

    And as for ways to teach folks how to recognise the signs of an abuser in the early stages of the relationship, certainly we can do more work on this as well. There is a survey at A Cry For Justice today which is about this very topic. Find it here:

    And as a parent of a survivor of domestic abuse Mark, you may like to look at the resources page for Family and Friends which we have at A Cry For Justice:


  51. Mark, I appreciate what you say about getting down to the “why”, but at times we can get too clever by half +by coming up with complicated schemes of how this all happens. To draw a picture, when a quality engineer (like myself) goes through an “eight disciplines” (8D) for a quality problem, the first thing we do after defining who’s going to be involved is to define the problem, and then to contain it.

    If you fail to do that, you send an unmistakable message to everybody involved with that product; that there is no black and white, but rather only shades of gray, regarding this matter. And when you’ve sent that message, there is no amount of cleverness in the “why” phase that will overcome that first message.

    No doubt that there are a number of “whys” one might contemplate–premarital relationships, perverse theologies and worldviews, and the like–but the first step is to get people together, especially in the church, and make it clear that certain behaviors are out of bounds, and will be subject to discipline.


  52. Barbara, Lydia, Bubba,,

    Abuse comes in many forms,,, I hate it.

    You make great points. Sometimes it is difficult to determine who is an abuser and who isn’t.

    I have presented a complex “Why” and “What” can we do to educate women (and men) to avoid getting into a bad relationship or how to communicate in a civilized polite manner when there is a disagreement rather than sparring in a toxic way.

    Maybe starting from scratch by educating the young in our churches and schools,,, though I think schools are addressing the bullying more than churches are preaching about spousal bullying, mental and physical abuse behind the pulpit.

    With the amount of divorce and abuse that is going on,, aside from the lack of identifying true love,, something is really missing in most churches in America,

    I would estimate that more than 50% of couples in the church I attend are divorced.


  53. ‘With the amount of divorce and abuse that is going on,, aside from the lack of identifying true love,, something is really missing in most churches in America’,

    Someone. Behold I stand at the door and knock


  54. KAS,,, I was born in the dark,, plus I’m missing a few of the brighter crayons in the box,, may need you to elaborate a little more with your comment.. it seems a little cryptic to me


  55. Mark,

    “I have presented a complex “Why” and “What” can we do to educate women (and men) to avoid getting into a bad relationship or how to communicate in a civilized polite manner when there is a disagreement rather than sparring in a toxic way.”

    If we need to educate Christians about how to behave then there is something desperately wrong.

    I seek the Lord myself and don’t need any man to educate me about how to treat my partner and kids with love and respect.

    If we need men to teach these things, the Holy Spirit is being quenched.

    That is, if he’s dwelling in these people at all.

    Loving one another is a choice.

    A costly one, but still a choice.

    We die to self daily.


  56. Mark, we are an entitlement society. Kids get a trophy for showing up. College is now a place where no one is allowed to offend me and I get to say what offends me. Me, me, me, me, me. We are seeing the fruit of it in spades.

    These “me, me, me” types seek out those who are fair minded and considerate. they know those types are easier to manipulate. And they are.

    Teach your kids how valuable they are FIRST. That no one has a right to be abusive toward them. Teach them to walk away from it.


  57. If we need to educate Christians about how to behave then there is something desperately wrong.

    Absolutely–it’s called the sin nature. Absent the teaching and preaching (and study) of the Word of God, people will tend to do what their sinful hearts are inclined to do. The doctrine of the leading of the Holy Spirit does NOT mean that believers are going to mystically know God’s will without studying His Word, hearing it preached, and being in fellowship with God’s people. Rather, the study, preaching, and fellowship seem to be the primary tools the Spirit uses to lead.


  58. “If we need to educate Christians about how to behave then there is something desperately wrong.”

    Not only that but look at what they are teaching! Piper tells young pastors to teach that wives should take abuse for a season. They go back and tell the youth group. Bruce Ware teaches young men in Seminary that women are not made in the direct image of God but are a derivative. Then we have celebrity pastor Matt Chandler Village church pimply faced elders telling Karen Hinckley she cannot divorce her pedophile husband without their permission. Do I even get started on what Driscoll and Mahaney teach about women? I could give thousands of examples from the last 2O years.

    Church is the LAST place people should learn how to treat others. Because as Orwell pointed out, some animals are more equal than others.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. Sorry Mark for being a bit vague. The reference is from Rev 3 and a verse often misused in evangelism to make an appeal for individual salvation:

    Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

    It’s the words of Jesus to a church, meaning you can have a church in which he is absent. Standing on the outside. A lukewarm church that makes him sick. It might have the form of religion, but denies the power of it.

    The hallmark he used to describe such a church is For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Uncomfortably close to too much modern evangelicalism with either its pseudo prosperity gospel or programs (downloadable) and activities (preferably with refreshments) or ornate ceremonies that substitute for the absence of the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus will fellowship with individuals who heed him even within such a dead institutions, an act of extraordinary grace.


  60. “Sorry Mark for being a bit vague. The reference is from Rev 3 and a verse often misused in evangelism to make an appeal for individual salvation:”

    Clever misnomer for authoritarians and works if one views the church as an institution with “offices”. People are not saved because they are accepted as part of a group. The Body is made up of individual believers who chose Christ.

    But these individuals can also be easily influenced as part of a group. They can be mislead as part of a group. This was the same type of warning about about the Nicolaitans. Best to flee such because they are not the Body when they accept wrong doing or evil. In the end, as individuals, we give an account.

    Liked by 1 person

  61. lydia00,,

    You wrote: Church is the LAST place people should learn how to treat others. Because as Orwell pointed out, some animals are more equal than others.

    I think you were referring to Piper and other Hyper-Reformed Calvinistic preachers/

    If the Bible is being preached in its proper context,, then church should be a place to learn or be reminded how to treat others,,


  62. Hi Mark, I think adults can usually read for themselves and today there are tons of study tools like Interlinears and lexicons, historical context research, etc. And the Holy Spirit is free to Berean’s. Still, most adults will look to someone with a Christian title to tell them what scripture means.

    If we are talking about kids, the dangers are worse. many SBC churches have bought into the Gospel Project which is cradle to grave curriculum to indoctrinate a determinist God and comp.


  63. Mark, Piper taught that women should not work out to build muscle. Yet, Noel had a blog post about going to the gym to build muscle. Perhaps communication is a problem for them? He did take a sabbatical years back to “work on the Garden of his marriage” and it was during the time he was making the rounds at conferences telling women their proper role in marriage. One would have thought it worked for him if he was teaching others? Too bad all couples don’t receive a paid 6 mos off to work on their marriage. Those are perks for the clergy class who teach us?


  64. Lydia,,

    I know a lot of people even in this thread are not a big fan of Joel Osteen, (mainly because of the wealth) but it seems he has a way of offering us reminders of how we are to conduct ourselves in line with scriptures, more than the Hyper-Calvinist.

    Many people who come from broken families (like me) didn’t have the consistent guidance growing up,, (though I know others grew up in worse circumstances)

    So church was the only place that I had some kind of refuge of remembering God’s Love.

    I’m not sure if I quite get what you are saying about Piper,, truthfully the only thing I know about Piper is I’m made to believe he is a hard core Reformed or Hyper Calvinist..

    Is Piper into wife spanking,, if he is I hope you can show me,, because I have a daughter who is married to someone who likes Piper.. and I need to know references about wife spanking.


  65. Mark, Piper teaches that women should take abuse for a season. His entire doctrinal foundation is on female subordination and a determinist God who designed it to be that way. Not sure why we need physical spanking proof as if that is the line in the sand. That thinking and belief leads to all levels of abuse when one sees any group “less than” whether skin color or gender. Some take it further than others depending on their

    I have a different view than you do. I believe even children can know basic right and wrong but living in wrong can become their normal or even a survival tactic. I believe we are born with a propensity to sin but are not totally depraved. Even the child bully whines when others are unfair to him. He knows it’s wrong but chooses to do it to others. Character has to be practiced, yet I know teens raised in wonderful Christian homes with high character parents who have turned out horribly as deceitful bullies. And I have know high character, high moral and very compassionate atheists. I worked for one at one time. Best man I ever knew. So was my father who rarely stepped inside a church yet was raised narcissistic church going mother and father. How did he dodge that? He left home at 17 to attend college and evidently vowed not to be like them. There was no Osteen back then, either. :o)

    I say all this because I don’t think there are easy pat answers. I do think that responsibility for behavior with consequences early on is the best route but even then guarantees nothing. You found a safe place to learn better than you had. I think that is wonderful. I would never disparage you for that.

    What makes a person a decent human being or not are their choices/responses in the midst of either horrible or great circumstances. We are not controlled by outside forces. But we can be influenced by them.

    As to your daughter, if her husband is a Piper fan she is in a situation where her submission to his wishes are of most importance whatever that may be. Piper is the master of Thought Reform. His delivery is unparalleled in flowery passionate verbosity. He is mesmerizing. He makes determinism sound like the highest calling. He makes tornados into divine power to wipe out sin. Bridge collapses are a loving God showing us our depravity. He uses flowery language to convince young minds that love is hate and evil is good.

    I know. I have family that hooked up with him after Wheaton about 17 years ago. Studied with him and worked with him. They became zombies who shunned their Christian family because “we did not know the true Gospel”. Even the people who paid for their expensive ‘Christian” education. They eventually left the country to take Calvin globally. Now all they want is money from those of us who don’t know the true Gospel. Seventeen years ago is when I started tracking Piper and his teaching. I was shocked to find out just how influential he has been from church youth groups to college campi to seminaries.


  66. Mark, I have seen nothing to suggest that Piper advocated anything like “domestic discipline”. (vomit)

    But, as Lydia pointed out, he is heavily into gender complementarianism (i.e. subordination of females), with some seriously loopy views on femininity and masculinity, and he seems to really love the perks of his job. I have no idea what your son-in-law is like, but whatever influence Piper has on him, it’s hard for me to imagine that it’s good.


  67. Lydia and Japan,,

    That’s the thing that puzzles me about my son-in-law,, he is a nice person, into heavy reformed theology but a liberal hippie kind of thinking with an added twist of Socialist Methodology Burney Sanders type of man,, has a decent public job,,

    Kind of rebellious but still genuine in that he didn’t hide who he is an hippie (not that there is anything wrong with hippies accept the sneaker, cut up blue jean, long wavy hair and black framed glasses style may distract interviewers offering a professional desk job, which is what he desires,, he is 31)

    When he and my daughter married.. they struggled as he was sloppy and she was more organized, though they were both very Liberal in their ideology,, they went to the only church counselor in town,, who happened to be a over the top Conservative and the Hyper Calvinist Preacher who abused our church for not embracing Calvinism… but did manage to steer my son-in-law and daughter into the Reformed Hyper-Calvinist School of thought.

    Even though they are still Liberals,, they began reminded me or my wife every time I visited their home that their own kids were sinners,, I told them if they wanted me to refer my grand kids as little sinners,, I’ll stop going to their house,, as I couldn’t witness them mentally abusing their kids.. I told the son-in-law the oldest boy thinks he’s a bad kid,,, The light bulb clicked they have literally stopped using that abusive tone as they realized it was too much.

    I know they like Piper and I see a strange weird submission by my daughter,, when they want to get together she never calls,, it is the son-in-law that asks if they can come over.

    Go figure Liberals embracing the strictest form of hyper reformed conservative Theology.


  68. “Go figure Liberals embracing the strictest form of hyper reformed conservative Theology.”

    I wish I could convince people the popular culture definitions of liberal/conservative don’t work. They have been gone for a long time.

    The Neo Cal movement wants a strong centralized government. Don’t be fooled. It’s leaders see their place at that table. . They view people and institutions through an authoritarian lens. Most self described secular liberals love big centralized government, too. They have been socialized to believe big government takes care of people. In their own way they are authoritarian determinists, too. They believe they are free with big centralized government planning, regulating and micromanaging our choices.

    So it is not as confusing as you think. It doesn’t make sense to you but that is what cognitive dissonance is– holding two opposing beliefs. That is how they believe such things that don’t make sense.

    What is missing in most of Christendom is the belief we are personally responsible for our words and actions as individuals no matter our gender, etc.. So a lot of time is spent convincing people that good is evil and right is wrong. We can’t see it because we are worms, dontcha know. . Or that we are all the same sinners so we cannot make judgments in right/wrong, etc. Or, if you don’t agree, you hate God or certain people groups. Those are just tactics to shut down discussion. They fear discussion that focuses on humans becoming strong and self sufficient. That is selfish, dontcha know.

    Your daughter has some hard decisions ahead. I hope you are thereto help her pick up the pieces. We usually only learn the hard way or when it is too late so reversing the trajectory is too painful. We need people in our lives waiting in the wings when that day comes. That is Love.


  69. Lydia,,

    Entitlement mentality,, you are correct but it is complicated and very political, which I never wanted this to be about politics,,

    My daughter is a strong independent thinking educated woman,, these two hippie love birds will be able to navigate through this. Maybe recently having a 3rd child while their Hyper Calvinist mentor left the church 3 years ago is causing them to lighten up,, they are still into Piper which is a concern, don’t know how long that will last.

    My Liberal Daughter and Son-in-Law can’t stand nor will they vote for either Dem or Pub candidates,,

    So how do we end entitlement mentality that is unfortunately exacerbating both Spiritual and Political abuse together and hurting the likes of the abused wife and kids of Saeed.

    I have a feeling that many of us, feel like all of our politicians are force feeding their Social “Will” on us,, which is another form of abuse, whether you are a liberal or a conservative.

    When things should be more simplified as I want to see how they are going to embrace Pro-Growth economics which would shrink Gov’t debt which is good for both men and women’s well being while keeping our Constitution in tact.

    Ideologies are colliding spurring more abuse, doesn’t make it right,, Hyper Reformed, Baptist, Catholics, Agnostics, Muslim, Atheist, Republican, Democrats, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Moderates, Keynesians and Austrian Economics, Greed, Charitable, from gropers to corrupt of which by appearance are chronic liars,, Men, Women and somewhere in between, black, white, Asian, Hispanics and of course the Oval Office has changed into the Oral Office.

    As for entitlement society, we have become more Socialistic which means more Gov’t control,,

    Makes me wonder why a free thinking Liberal would want a Socialist to take their freedoms away and allow the Gov’t to decide what is best for them. If anything they would embrace the Libertarian views which embraces Free Thinkers without Gov’t interference.

    Once everyone is entitled we all become a slave to the Gov’t and really can’t practice being a liberal or conservative forcing us to keep our beliefs secret.

    When that happens this thread will never run out of abusive things to write about,, if the Gov’t allows her to do it without sending the IRS from auditing her.

    Regular Christians are being scrutinized and now are walking on egg shells more than ever in the Geo-Political arena and from the media.

    Christians who taught or involved in a church looking for a teaching in certain public schools are being isolated and not considered for hire,, I know, I sat on a hiring board,, told one of hiring team she was practicing discrimination, they turned red in the face, what she didn’t know until then, was that I was a Christian. I reported her to the Liberal non-Christian Superintendent who was mentoring her,, nothing happened of course. she probably got a letter of recommendation from him in her next teaching job.

    My own daughter was verbally abused by a Liberal non-believing Teacher,, when she broke the bad news that Santa Claus didn’t circum-navigate the globe at Christmas time,, she chewed out my 7 year old little girl (who was and shill is a free spirit) exclaiming that other kids can believe what they want,,
    I then challenged this teacher and ask her if my daughter can believe what she wanted. Another words the other kids could express their beliefs but my daughter couldn’t.
    That teacher turned red faced as well… I was too afraid of the fall-out at that time to do anything about it.. Didn’t want to be accused of being a male chauvinist Christian pig.

    Back to entitlement mentality that is affecting our kids and fueling more abuse and entrapping mothers and daughters even more, from escaping abuse.

    The cheap dollar economic “experiment” that started in 2002 did more in my view to exacerbate spiritual abuse, racism and geo-political strife to elevate and divide in this country.

    Cheap money policy, put 10 million people out of work in 2009, at a time when our own kids were entering adulthood and the workforce.. magnifying this entitlement mentality you are talking about.

    Weak dollar caused high operating cost for small businesses, shrinking the purchasing power for 300 million Americans making Industries consolidate, good for the Dow and Commodity Brokers,, bad for everyone else,, which stimulates even more abuse in society and churches,,
    if we continue in the low interest rate environment and don’t flush out the current members of the Federal Reserve, I suspect we’ll see more racism and abuse grow even more than what we have seen in the last 8 to 12 years. Especially in Hyper Reformed Churches.

    It looks like the Federal Reserve will stay in tact if we get a progressive elected in the White House, not sure if it will with a groper,, and Johnson doesn’t have a prayer,

    We have politically moderate candidate who says really stupid things and behaves terribly around some women who is infuriating female voters he is trying to attract. We have a progressive social liberal who is a serial corrupt politician getting money funneled into her foundation from nations who abuse women as our two choices, one of which will get elected. Both of these candidates lie.

    We have had gropers and corrupt politicians in the White House before. So how are we to end this entitlement mentality,, does it come down to embracing Progressive Socialism that will further stimulate the growth of entitlements or a Capitalist pissing people off with his arrogance and bad behavior? (actually they are both arrogant)

    Where does God fit in? Thanks to the media who are magnifying bad character of both candidates they both seem to practice, the kind of behavior that doesn’t honor God.

    But Christ did remind us of one certainty in John 19:10-11 when he stood before Pilate, is God is in control but also allows human to make choices, though some Calvinist don’t believe in Free-Will..

    New International Version
    11 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
    12 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”


  70. @Lydia00:

    The Neo Cal movement wants a strong centralized government. Don’t be fooled. It’s leaders see their place at that table. . They view people and institutions through an authoritarian lens. Most self described secular liberals love big centralized government, too.

    Because both see themselves on the Iron Throne. Whether another Geneva with themselves as Calvin or another Perfect Society with themselves as People’s Democratic Premier. Both decreeing Dogma ex Cathedra by Divine Right and enforcing it by Divine Right.

    And the Iron Throne has room for only one butt.


  71. @Lydia00:

    Mark, Piper taught that women should not work out to build muscle. Yet, Noel had a blog post about going to the gym to build muscle. Perhaps communication is a problem for them?

    Or Rank Hath Its Privileges.
    Highborn and Lowborn, by Divine Omnipotent Will.


  72. @Lydia00:

    These types are only capable of loving themselves. Pray for the children. A dad like that is a horror.

    If we’re lucky, Saeed will marry himself (don’t laugh; it’s been done) and limit the damage.
    Because “I can’t possibly find anyone who will love me as much as I Love Me”. (Actual quote from one of those “self-marrieds”.)


  73. “Because both see themselves on the Iron Throne. ”

    They and their followers always know best for us. See, we are either sinners who disagree or selfish mean individuals who don’t want to help others.

    Frankly, from my perspective the church and state are much alike when it comes to wanting control over people’s choices.


  74. Headless,,

    You pointed our an interesting comment by Lydia00 about a centralized Gov’t and Neo-Calvinism,,

    I tie much of the abuse that is occurring for many women to flee from abuse because of their inability to fiscally afford to escape abuse.

    The Federal Reserve admitted their policies hurt the middle class and poor the most and as long they continue in the low rate policy, more women will continue to be trapped.

    With one candidate embracing a more progressive socialistic central Gov’t who supports Yellon’s cheap money policy,, will not improve the fiscal well being of the abused. The other candidate has openly criticized Yellen’s cheap money policy but says infuriating things about certain women..

    The best thing that can help an middle income or poor abused woman from escaping abuse (aside from the Holy Spirit intervening) is a strong dollar. Not going to happen with a progressive,, actually may actually get worse.


  75. If we’re lucky, Saeed will marry himself (don’t laugh; it’s been done) and limit the damage.

    Does that mean it would be OK to shout “Go **** yourself” as he leaves the reception? Sorry, couldn’t resist; somehow it seemed appropriately inappropriate.

    Seriously, lots of room for repentance on the part of Mr. Abedini, not to mention Mr. Drumpf and Mrs. Clinton, and for that matter a heck of a lot of others, for various reasons. Abedini, Drumpf, and Clinton all have one cause for repentance in common, too; abuse of women. (Clinton is known to have gone door to door to threaten her husband’s paramours in 1992, and at other times)

    And since Piper is mentioned here, here’s his statements on spousal abuse. I know most here disagree with some of his theological stands, but I think we ought to hear him out in his own words at least. He is, as are most of us here, in favor of civil and church discipline of the abusive spouse.


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