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Horrific story of spiritual abuse, mishandling of sex abuse, church membership, Matt Chandler, The Village Church, Jordan Root, pedophile, child pornography
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I woke up late this morning and checked my Twitter feed to find that many of my Twitter friends were shocked and appalled at the treatment of Karen Hinkley (formerly Karen Root) by Matt Chandler’s church, The Village Church.
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Amy Smith, aka @watchkeep on Twitter, is an advocate for abuse survivor, a twitterer extraordinaire, and a champion for exposing truth. She compiled a shocking article presenting primary source documents and screenshots of text messages about this situation.
We don’t need to wonder why people are leaving churches. This is a prime example of why I will never, ever, ever sign a dotted line to become a member of a church.
I will briefly summarize the story, but please read Amy’s article here: She Speaks: The Village Church protects a confessed pedophile and “disciplines” his wife, a brave young woman and missionary
Also, The Wartburg Watch will be covering follow-up stories next week. I am so grateful for Amy and Dee who expose this nonsense. Hopefully, by shining the light on these types of stories, others will not have to suffer the same kind of pain Karen has experienced.
Imagine being on the mission field in a foreign country and finding out that your husband has been viewing child pornography. Imagine having to pack up your belongings and come back home to your sending church and wonder what your future holds.
Karen released a statement. The bulk of the statement is to make sure that the truth is exposed. She rightly shares this concern:
It is my sincere hope that Jordan has not sexually abused any children, but I believe the circumstances warrant his exposure so that any victims who might be out there can be identified and given an opportunity for justice and healing.
However, these two key paragraphs are worth noting. This is a common pattern we see in churches that do not handle sex abuse cases well. They will defend the perpetrator and victims of the abuser are treated as if they are the primary problem:
The inclination towards minimization and secrecy that the pastors and elders of The Village Church have displayed is inexcusable. And the spiritual abuse I have experienced at their hands is unacceptable from those who would represent Jesus Christ. Jesus cares deeply for the vulnerable and the voiceless. He speaks strongly against those who would victimize children, and he went toe-to-toe with the religious bullies of his day who “tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” (Matthew 23) The treatment of Jordan as the victim and me as the perpetrator by the leadership of the church is an appalling reversal that evidences priorities that are not in line with the Word of God.
And this one:
Pastors and elders of The Village Church, I urge you to rethink your hasty and public declaration of Jordan’s repentance and require him to seek out appropriate treatment for the nature and seriousness of his issues. I also urge you to conduct a thorough inquiry into how this situation unfolded and reform any policies and practices that contributed to your failure to respond appropriately.
In Amy’s blog article, you will find a note Karen wrote to the leaders at The Village Church informing them that she is withdrawing her membership from the church. She also stated that she filed for an annulment from her pedophile husband.
A week or so later, she received this letter which outlined that The Village Church was putting her in church discipline for not allowing the church leadership to “care” for her. Furthermore, her soon-to-be ex-husband was NOT put in church discipline.
We have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders. As I mentioned in my first letter, this decision violates your covenant with us – and places you under discipline. Per section 10.5 of The Village Church bylaws, you are prohibited from voluntarily resigning membership while subject to the formal disciplinary process. We cannot, therefore, accept your resignation. – See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/#sthash.f9fRwy2Y.dpuf
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The article documents statements pastors at The Village Church which defend Jordan Root, wanting to protect his reputation, for fear that people come to wrong conclusions. You really need to read the whole article and documents for yourself.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
2 great minds with a single thought!!! lol
Let’s back up here just a bit. I’m sure these people are into the whole women submit no matter what, but now they want us to minister to the husbands. Now how does that work? You only play minister to the husband if they are caught in sexual sin, otherwise they are to lord it over you?
This is insane.
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Was she fed her lines?
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Agree, Brenda and BTDT. Chandler learned from the finest…Piper and Mahaney.
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“The focus gets put in the wife, for crying out loud!!!”
That’s because she is his savior. She is his Jesus, which, in my obviously peasant-y unable to understand the proper comp marriage mind, brings up the thought that I thought the husband was Jesus in these gospel marriages and not the wife.
Or do men get to be Jesus in certain circumstances only- like when they can look good, or flash their authority around, or whatever trips their triggers? But when they grievously sin against their wives or commit crimes, all of a sudden wives are Jesus and the men are the church receiving salvation.
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“This is insane.”
They make up stuff as they go.
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Chandler learned from the finest…Piper and Mahaney.
And he was under Driscoll for while too, wasn’t he?
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Brenda R. said: “TLC Pulls ’19 Kids and Counting’ in Wake of Josh Duggar Molestation Admission”
That is very, very good news. I have been asking myself throughout the day, “what about the victims”. Were they given any counseling or told to suck it up?
Oh, I’m sure they were counseled, all right. They were probably told that running around the house in a nightgown (doesn’t your typical preschooler do that kind of thing?) is too tempting for a big brother. They were probably counseled that the wrong kind of smile at their brother, or the wrong kind of body language (think how inviting it is to stretch with your back arched and your arms stretched out, to get out a kink) is “stumbling” to him. They were likely counseled that they were in sin just as much as he was, that it was as much their fault as his, and maybe even a little bit more.
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And I return to SSB shaken, after reading comments on another blog about the Duggars. I don’t even remember which blog. I closed it out and don’t plan to go back. They were very triggering, especially the guy who kept maintaining that the girls didn’t report their brother because they were having too much fun.
JA, thank you for making this a safe place for survivors.
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“And I return to SSB shaken, after reading comments on another blog about the Duggars.”
I’ve been shaking for two days now. For some of us, this is not just a “Reality TV Celebrity” issue. Some of us lived the same ideology. To me, this is every bit as important as the fall of Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard.
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Well I think the dominos are falling and I hope all this becomes as big as the Catholic Church scandal. We cannot continue as a country with this kind of debauchery, especially when we as Christians are suppose to be the opposite. I feel sad and like others here for the past few days I also have been sick to my stomach. My heart goes out so much for you Karen and Christian Janeway.
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“Although Gothard was forced to resign as the head of the Advanced Training Institute due to the accusations, the Duggars apparently still follow the organization’s teaching plans, which include lessons on how to deal with sexual abuse in the home. . .
Especially this one: “Lessons From Moral Failures in a Family,” which describes a hypothetical scenario in which parents discover that “an older brother was guilty of sexually abusing younger ones in his family.” When the older brother had “repented,” he’s asked a series of questions—including “What teaching could have been given to each child [emphasis ours] to resist evil?” and “What factors in the home contributed to immodesty and temptation?”
“The damage to the younger children, the ridicule to the cause of Christ, the shame of detailed publicity, and the scars to the life and reputation of the boy were indescribably painful to the family and their friends,” it continues, before the boy describes where he went wrong and what lessons he learned. . .
The lessons are frighteningly light on personal responsibility, and heavy on blame for the victim—condemning younger sisters for dressing “immodestly,” and parents for exposing the boy to temptation by having him change his sisters’ diapers. The document also blames porn, advising families to “pray for protection from pornography.””
http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool-programs-terrifying-advice-on-sex-1706406324?
How the Duggars dealt with Josh’s crime is a direct result of Gothard’s teaching.
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“And he was under Driscoll for while too, wasn’t he?”
Yes and Mahaney was a mentor to Driscoll.
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refugee, I would forget the name of that blog as well. Anyone who would say such a thing is severely warped. If the girls didn’t report this they were probably either too young or trained to keep quiet.
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“How the Duggars dealt with Josh’s crime is a direct result of Gothard’s teaching.”
I just watched the story on TV and the reporter mentioned that Josh was “sent away for 4 months of counseling.” That sounds odd to me. Where would they send a young teen for 4 months for counseling? A Gothard place of some kind?
This is so sad… breaks my heart. 😦
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Yes, he was sent to one of Gothard’s camps (not sure that’s the word). There was a lot of manual labor and Gothard-approved counseling.
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JD Hall is just another cult leader, IMO. He’s also wrong about Karen divorcing her husband. She got an annulment. Guy can’t even get his facts straight.
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Excellent article over there at Echoes and Stars. Misogynist is the perfect description of these so-called elders who *care* about Karen.
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“…the real sin is not submitting to the pastors,:
BeenThereDoneThat,
You’ve got that right. After all, the pedophile *repented* and Karen should just consider taking the fella back. I would have no doubt that is what would entail being under their care.
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On another blog someone made reference to an Orwell quote from “Animal Farm.” My rearrangement of that quote goes like this: “All men are equal, and all men are more equal than all women.” Or, in pop Christianese: “All bros are equal, and all bros are more equal than all sister-women.” Or should that be sister-ladies?
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Ok, since J.D.Hall and Pulpit and Pen were mentioned, I decided to take a gander over at their site. I found a recent article entitled, “Are Women Only Gatherings Biblical? Thoughts From John Bunyan.” I think you can guess what the conclusion is. 😉 For those of you inclined to do so, feel free to sit down with a beverage of your choice and enjoy (or not). By the way, not give too much away {;-)}, but me thinks guys like this, just like at The Village, are terrified of women doing much of anything *on their own.* Gotta keep them women in line or they just might get out of CONTROL!
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/05/22/are-women-only-gatherings-biblical-thoughts-from-john-bunyan/
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I think they are terrified of women, period, and so they have to assume an authority position over them. God forbid that Karen actually used her brain and realized that her elders were not going to defend or protect her, and so she took matters in her own hands.
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Re: JD Hall
“She’s divorcing her husband without seeking counsel of her elders.”
I just cannot even believe these people.
If I didn’t know Christianity was about Jesus and thought this was what He was about, I would never want to be a Christian.
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Or should that be sister-ladies?
More like sister-girls.
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@JA~
“Yes, he was sent to one of Gothard’s camps (not sure that’s the word). There was a lot of manual labor and Gothard-approved counseling.”
I just read this (below). Apparently it was no camp and there was no counseling. It seems to me that it was meant to sound more official than it was-staying with a friend:
“Jim Bob then “met with the elders of his church and told them what was going on.” No one alerted the police or any other law enforcement agency. Instead they decided to send Josh to a “program [that] consisted of hard physical work and counseling. James said that [redacted, Josh] was in the program from March 17, 2003 until July 17, 2003.”
He said the program was a “Christian program.” Michelle Duggar later admitted to police that Josh did not receive counseling and instead had been sent during that time to a family friend who was in the home remodeling business.
Asked about the training center that Jim Bob said Josh was sent to, Michelle told police, according to the report, “it was not really a training center. Det. [Darrell] Hignite asked if the guy [redacted, Josh] talked to was a certified counselor. She said no. She said it was a guy they know in Little Rock that is remodeling a building. Det. Hignite asked if the guy was more of a mentor. She said “kind of.””
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Link for the above-
http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/bombshell-duggar-police-report-jim-bob-duggar-didn-t-report-son-josh-s-alleged-sex-offenses-for-more-than-a-year-58906
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I read that in the police report and then later today I read that it was actually one of Gothard’s camps.
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“Are Women Only Gatherings Biblical?”
No, not if a man thinks that women must be controlled at all times. After all, if women are gathered together, and even just one man is there with them, then none of them can teach the group — he is the only authorized teacher/speaker, isn’t that right?
It’s not safe for women to be left alone, to wander into error. Eve was the one who was deceived, after all. Women need to be protected from themselves.
(Imagine how horrific things might be if Karen had bought into this thinking? How many children would still be at risk from her former husband?)
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This is very tragic the way Karen was treated. It’s extremely sad that it was at the hand of a church that is supposed to feed and care for Jesus’ sheep. But, this is a great example of how The Village Church pastors operate. Keep in mind these are seminary educated men. They are not stupid. Karen pointed out to them that they were remiss, in believing that a pedophile was telling them the whole truth, when he said that he hadn’t harmed any children. But they already knew that such people can’t be trusted. The fact is that they didn’t want to go public with the information that they had a pedophile in their midst, because it could have tarnished their image, and that might affect the mega-church franchise that they are building. Karen’s situation is significantly more tragic than my experience with The Village Church pastoral group, but I was similarly and intentionally deceived for years, when I asked questions on theological issues. The pastors at the Village Church also don’t want to reveal what they believe (and they are clearly under orders from the top to do so) about specific Bible doctrine, because they know it will be controversial, and they could lose members (i.e., it would hurt their business model). My experience with The Village Church can be read here:
http://www.praythendo.com/why-i-left-the-village-church/
When I told the campus pastor at The Village Church that I was resigning my membership, I was met with the same response that Karen got. Essentially, they threw the Covenant Membership Agreement that I had signed at me. They told me I couldn’t resign and that I had to meet with them about my blog article above. I asked that they write up what issues they had with my article before we met, and they refused to put anything in writing. So I refused to meet with them. I was then told that I was not suitable for membership in any other church, because they could not release me from the covenant I had signed. I did just as Karen did, and told them the covenant didn’t apply to me, as I was no longer a member of the church. I remember thinking at the time about the unbiblical nature of such covenants, and that Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:5 that, “There is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.” But, the Village Church doesn’t see it that way. They see themselves in the role as a second mediator. The pastoral group at The Village Church is on a sad and sorry power trip, and they will continue to hurt people along the way.
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“It’s not safe for women to be left alone, to wander into error. Eve was the one who was deceived, after all. Women need to be protected from themselves.”
Refugee,
This was the mindset that the leader had in the sect I once belonged to. He had a teaching about the “Spirit of Eve.” He said that every woman should look inside herself because the Eve Spirit is there. The Eve Spirit sought to control and manipulate men. In this teaching he said that women often wanted *wrong attention* and that men had to be discerning so that they wouldn’t drawn into their wiles. A woman crying, more often than not, was just a ploy for her to get her way or to ward off needful correction. I could go on but I think what I’ve said so far you can get the gist.
As far as that Pulpit and Pen article pointing to Bunyan’s objection to women having their own Bible studies and prayer meetings, I honestly think that J.D. Hall and other men like him (Patriarchy defenders) pine for the good ole days. You know, when women couldn’t vote or own property, or were criticized for entering noble professions because they weren’t *barefoot, pregnant, and tied to the kitchen sink* as the saying goes.
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David, welcome to SSB and thank you for sharing your experience of TVC. I’m saddened to hear of this pattern of not allowing members to leave. I find it very troubling. Again, who gets to find them as unfit elders? It does sound like a power trip and that is not the way God intended shepherds to be.
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JD Hall is just another cult leader, IMO. He’s also wrong about Karen divorcing her husband. She got an annulment. Guy can’t even get his facts straight.
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Hey, I stomped my feet months ago, last year in fact, and told all of you that JD Hall hadn’t repented for jack squat and that his so-called apology read like the manifesto of a sociopath or NPD abuser, or words to that effect. All he’s done since his so-called apology is prove up the truth of that opinion. Every once in a while I actually veer into the truth, that guy never fooled for for a nanosecond. A vicious, sadistic abuser.
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Re: JD Hall
“She’s divorcing her husband without seeking counsel of her elders.”
I just cannot even believe these people.
If I didn’t know Christianity was about Jesus and thought this was what He was about, I would never want to be a Christian.
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I wouldn’t either, but JD Hall doesn’t represent Christianity at all, he seems more like the polar opposite of Christ (who would likely run him out of his tiny church at the crack of a whip), and the opposite of Paul (who would likely say it would have been better for him just to cut the whole thing off).
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Admin note to truthdetector142: I’m not sure what’s going on with your userID, TD, but this one got held up because of the 142 behind the name. Is that how you want it? If the userID changes, then the first comment with that name is moderated.
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Yes, you did. When he told me specific details of how his elders were handling things and he was very humble on the phone with me, I had hope that things had a chance of changing. As soon as he had access to his social media platform, humility left. I was sad to see this.
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JD Hall, as we would say in California, is “one taco short of a combination plate!”.
OK JD Hall: The (sex) crimes that Karen’s ex-husband Jordan (allegedly) committed: a) are felonies that can land him in federal prison or state prison for years; and
b) they Biblically disqualify him for marriage.
Here is the U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.), a division of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, website on the international work being done to stop child sexual exploitation and the criminal penalties that U.S. citizens face no matter where they commit those crimes in the world:
http://www.ice.gov/predator
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Barbara said,
Some churches, under influence of ADF (Alliance Defending Freedom), I believe, are encouraging American churches to make members sign membership agreements, and ones that specify that once you sign, you are giving up a right to voluntarily leave. I hope I explained that right.
I think you can read about that here:
Churches Attempting to Force Mediation and Limit Members’ Right to Resign Under Discipline™
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Re Diane’s post:
Your take on that is probably right, I’m just amazed at how confusing gender comp is.
I don’t understand why in that sexual sin context, some gender comps put the woman in the “headship” position.
I thought comps believed that men are supposed to be the “Jesus / Savior” and “head” to the wife? I guess they switch it out or flip it around when it is convenient, or when they can find any way to put the burden on women?
Why is it that men in gender comp always get off scot free, while the women are stuck paying the price, or shouldering the responsibility, for what men have done?
Gender complementarians want to act like women are feeble, weak, soft things who need to be led around by a strong, decisive protective man, but the minute a man (husband) falls into trouble of his own stupid making, they start telling the wife it’s her job to be strong and make things right.
Gender comps are not consistent on their own beliefs. One minute they are teaching women are weak, the next, women are strong, and should be the strong ones when the husband messes up.
Also, don’t most gender comps say that the husband is supposed to role model Jesus for the wife? But here, they are saying the wife has to be Jesus like for the husband?? Huh??
I wish gender complementarians would keep their sexist propaganda straight. Be consistent.
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refugee said,
As a matter of fact.
I’m sorry I don’t remember where I read this today, I read so many articles about the Duggar story.
One of the articles I was reading today said something like one of the first times someone told the Duggar dad that Josh was molesting the girls, that the dad and some other adult men were in the middle of having a conversation about how they would need to tell the teen girls to bind up their chests even more because their figures might be too distracting or tempting for the boys.
Someone on another page was saying that the Duggar parents won’t let their daughters wear bikinis to the beach, and they tell their sons to glance down if a scantily clad women walks by so they won’t have impure thoughts. I’m not sure if that is true. I never watch the Duggar show, but that is what someone on another site was saying.
If true, telling your sons to avert their gaze didn’t do much to keep one of them from feeling up his sisters.
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Teaching boys to avert their eyes when seeing an “immodest” female is definitely taught in the Homeschool Movement. It’s part of the Purity Culture. I found that my boys wanted to become modesty police and they were on the lookout for any female who didn’t pass their test (which they learned from CON). Thankfully, after we left, things got back to normal again.
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Re: Darlene
I thought most Christians believe when a woman accepts Jesus as her Savior that the Holy Spirit lives inside her, not Eve?
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Here is our post about Dallas Thelogical Seminary’s shoddy teaching about divorce for abuse.
http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/04/21/what-does-dallas-theological-seminary-say-about-divorce-and-redemption-in-cases-of-spousal-abuse/
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And here is out post about how Dallas Theological Seminary had a book in their library which gave appaling advice about how to deal with sexual abuse.
http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/03/24/acfj-was-right-after-all-sexual-issues-is-indeed-being-used-at-dallas-theological-seminary-in-their-bc-101-class/
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“I’m sure these people are into the whole women submit no matter what, but now they want us to minister to the husbands. Now how does that work? You only play minister to the husband if they are caught in sexual sin, otherwise they are to lord it over you? ”
BINGO, Brenda!
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“… if evidence does come to light that molestation might have happened, then we will ” if evidence does come to light that molestation might have happened, then we will absolutely communicate that quickly to those who need to know.” (said Richard Brindley to Karen Hinkley, former wife of Jordan Root)
The evidence has ALREADY come to light that molestation MIGHT have happend. Here is the evidence:
1. Jordan Root has confessed to having watched child porn for years.
2. Jordan Root has a history of having had access to children for many years, in many towns, in many different settings.
Verification for point 2, from Jordan former wife, Karen Hinkley, from
watchkeep.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html :
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Begin quote from watchkeep blog
This is a list of Jordan Root’s access to children via employment and volunteer capacities beginning his freshman year of college provided by Jordan’s former wife Karen Hinkley:
Paid:
· Daycare in Albany, NY (Prior to 2003 and then off and on until 2007)
· Daycare in Cedarville, OH (Period of time between 2004 and 2007)
· Summer Camp at First Baptist Dallas, Dallas, TX (May-August 2008)
· Dolfin Swim School, Dallas, TX (September 2008-July 2010)
· In Class Learning Differences Aid, Dallas, TX (September-December 2010)
· Practicum Counselor at Dallas Life, Dallas, TX (worked with families and children; January-August 2011)
· Private Children’s Swim Instructor, Dallas, TX (June-September 2011)
· Mental Health Technician at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (November 2011-March 2012)
· Therapist on the Child and Adolescent Unit at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (March 2012-May 2014)
· A substantial amount of paid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX
Unpaid:
· Informal Children’s Ministry to Refugee Children in Vickery Meadows, Dallas, TX (2008-2011)
· Lived in Santa Fe Trails Apartment Complex, Dallas, TX; spent a lot of time alone with children (2008-2012)
· Volunteered in children’s and youth ministries at various churches in Cedarville, OH and Dallas, TX (and possibly Albany, NY)
· A substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX
Anyone who has seen, suspected or suffered child sex crimes by Jordan Root is urged to come forward and contact local police in order to heal and protect others. In the Dallas area, contact the Dallas police child exploitation unit at (214) 671-4211. Child Help national child abuse hotline is available 24/7: 1-800-4-A-CHILD (1-800-422-4453)
– See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html#sthash.j7TuvCLJ.dpuf
End quote from watchkeep blog
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That is enough evidence to show that molestation MIGHT have happened!
C’mon, Village Church, the guy has spent almost all his waking energy trying to get access to kids. That is what serial child molesters do. They don’t take vacations. They don’t have weekends off. The spend all their waking hours trying to get access to children and grooming the gatekeeper-adults around those children to get them to trust them.
I don’t have to have been a fly on the wall in Jordan Root’s life so deduce from that list of his life-activities and jobs, that he has put a LOT of energy into getting access to children.
In fact, that list is enough to suggest that molestation has almost CERTAINLY happened — that Jordan Root has almost certainly molested children. In fact, it’s enough to suggest that Jordan has molested MANY children.
I do not hate Jordan Root; I have simply read a very good book about the Socially Skilled Child Molester, by Carla van Dam, PhD. And what that book taught me leads me to suggest that Jordan most likely has molested MANY children.
Village Church needs to do a 100% about-turn on the way they’ve handled Jordan and Karen.
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I tend to think Wayne nailed it and the Village idiots are just attempting to create a mistrust between Karen and whatever friends she has at this church. My guess is most of them will disagree with the church’s handling of the matter. Hopefully the “leadership” will move forward quickly (like the immature bullies they are) and excommunicate Karen, including the statement from the pulpit of why she is NOW considered an unbeliever. I think that would be the greatest thing that could ever happen. One, people would see what kind of idiots are running the village and many would leave. The aren’t going to buy this she is suddenly an unbeliever nonsense.
Two, this matter has all the ingredients of being another VERY high profile exposure of an abusive church (remember the google review lawsuit and the RESULTS praise the LORD ! ). Three, this is a great example for the entire church world to see WHY YOU SHOULD NOT join a church or sign any sort of membership agreement/ covenant/ contract.
I might point out that all of the agreements I have personally seen are a legal joke. First there is no prevision in American jurisprudence for “Covenant agreements”. Call it whatever you want but only a contract is a legitimate form, and there has to be consideration for it to be upheld as binding. What is the consideration in these documents that masquerade as contracts ?
“In consideration for letting you join our band of control freaks and for us allowing you the privilege of forking over a minimum of 10% of your gross income, YOU agree to let us publicly defame you and abuse you in general. In a few cases we might rape you or molest your children but you can’t sue us. Christians can’t sue Christians, only declare them unbelievers in front of the whole church”.
In these agreements there is no consideration and thus there is NO contract. Clauses that waive your RIGHT to judicial review of a matter and demand arbitration are rarely enforceable. Courts tend to take a very dim view of people telling other people what cases they can bring before the court, even in a legitimate contract. Claiming the other party can’t litigate because of a “contract” with NO consideration is as laughable as claiming you can’t leave a church without their permission. What the church World needs is a high profile case where a church and the Village Idiots running it are sued and literally the lights are turned off. I mean the church is done, building and real estate levied, the pastor loses his cars, home and savings. Only then will some of these abusive churches clean up their act.
By the way, a few topics ago I mentioned I was considering joining the church I have been attending since like March. If I ever mention that again could someone please hold me accountable (I busted up typing that) with a ball peen hammer to the back of the head ? I think that perhaps skipping communion and remaining a NON-member is the way to go. Not as safe as being a DONE, but I have had 10 years of that and it has it’s issues/risks too. I can always take communion at a friend’s church that I occasionally visit. There they actually explain that communion is open to anyone that has trusted Christ as their savior.
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Diane, thanks for posting the links to the videos by the Village Idiots. WOW, they even have one on how often you should have marital relations, and how you are to view it as providing a “service” to your spouse. Great, so if I ever get married I should view my wife as a service provider. That is about the sickest thing I have ever heard. You know that alone would be enough for any thinking person to leave that church.
The one on single women is worse and totally ignorant advice. If someone ever ends up suing this church, those videos would be the first thing I would show the jury.
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1) Don’t sign anything. If a church wants you to sign a contract go elsewhere.
2) Don’t allow anyone to care for or watch over other people’s children alone.
this includes women and girls. The number of female offenders has increased.
3) Any man or boy who volunteers for nursery duty raises a red flag. Call me a comp or neanderthal, I don’t care.
4) Gothard has left a horrible legacy.
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“This is a list of Jordan Root’s access to children via employment and volunteer capacities beginning his freshman year of college provided by Jordan’s former wife Karen Hinkley:
Paid:
· Daycare in Albany, NY (Prior to 2003 and then off and on until 2007)
· Daycare in Cedarville, OH (Period of time between 2004 and 2007)
· Summer Camp at First Baptist Dallas, Dallas, TX (May-August 2008)
· Dolfin Swim School, Dallas, TX (September 2008-July 2010)
· In Class Learning Differences Aid, Dallas, TX (September-December 2010)
· Practicum Counselor at Dallas Life, Dallas, TX (worked with families and children; January-August 2011)
· Private Children’s Swim Instructor, Dallas, TX (June-September 2011)
· Mental Health Technician at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (November 2011-March 2012)
· Therapist on the Child and Adolescent Unit at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (March 2012-May 2014)
· A substantial amount of paid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX
Unpaid:
· Informal Children’s Ministry to Refugee Children in Vickery Meadows, Dallas, TX (2008-2011)
· Lived in Santa Fe Trails Apartment Complex, Dallas, TX; spent a lot of time alone with children (2008-2012)
· Volunteered in children’s and youth ministries at various churches in Cedarville, OH and Dallas, TX (and possibly Albany, NY)
· A substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX”
Barbara R, This is really disturbing! You know that there is something going on.
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The weird thing is all the paid and UNPAID babysitting he has done. This is usually something men don’t do on a normal basis.
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“The fact is that they didn’t want to go public with the information that they had a pedophile in their midst, because it could have tarnished their image, and that might affect the mega-church franchise that they are building.”
There is this coming up in 5 months and it sounds like a big deal for Dallas, since it’s being held at the “grandest of all national stages” and all. lol–’cause you know THAT”S what makes Christians…a grand stage. Anyway, Chandler is on the advisory team-how would it look for TVC’s image to be in a controversy of this kind?
“The Harvest America annual evangelistic crusade led by California megachurch pastor Greg Laurie will be held at AT&T Stadium, the home of the Dallas Cowboys, in November, the organizers have announced.
“Public proclamations of the gospel are disappearing across the national landscape,” Laurie said in a statement. “I believe that Dallas-Fort Worth is one of the last bastions of a strong gospel culture, but unless we fortify the status quo, I fear it will gradually slip away. That is why I feel an urgency to join with churches across denominational lines to do something big and bold in this community on what may be the grandest of all national stages – AT&T Stadium
The advisory team includes Dr. Mark Bailey of Dallas Theological Seminary; Pastor Matt Chandler of The Village Church; Dr. Tony Evans of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship; Dr. Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist Church; Dr. Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Church of Dallas; and Pastor Robert Morris of Gateway Church.
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/greg-lauries-harvest-america-2015-to-be-held-at-home-of-dallas-cowboys-in-november-135368/#b21UL5Qxi4jDIPvA.99
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Oh…and that’s quite a cast of characters on that advisory team. 😦
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Diane, Oh how I agree with the advisory team being quite the cast. If only John Piper were on it, it would be enough to turn me off. With the others on the line up, my stomach turns.
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Removed one comment by request.
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I heartily second everything Keith Blankenship had to say this morning at 6:14: AM, including:
“1) Don’t sign anything. If a church wants you to sign a contract go elsewhere.”
I would add that, if you have already signed a contract, usually called a covenant, or if you have accepted a constitution and/or bylaws, or whatever, by any means (baptism, responding to an invitation to come for membership, etc.), or if you have in any other way even arguably bound yourself to accept church discipline (even regular attendance may be dangerous), get out. Go elsewhere. Get out and go elsewhere now!
There is especial danger if the Covenant/Membership Agreement/Constitution/Bylaws/etc. contain a provision prohibiting you from withdrawing membership once church discipline has been instituted against you. Do not, do not, by remaining a member (or even a regular attender), give anybody the opportunity to commence church discipline against you.
A good article on how to resign from church membership is posted at The Wartburg Watch Here: http://tinyurl.com/kqunayx
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“Public proclamations of the gospel are disappearing across the national landscape,” Laurie said in a statement. “I believe that Dallas-Fort Worth is one of the last bastions of a strong gospel culture, but unless we fortify the status quo, I fear it will gradually slip away.”
That is so melodramatic. Their chronic mishandling and minimization of abuse, plus their grasp for celebrity fame, power, and money is what’s causing their institution to “[disappear] across the national landscape.”
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I have been heartsick for the past few days over these two compelling stories. I think many of us here on SSB are triggered by the stupidity and meanness that we see in so much of organized religion–their action and lack of action goes beyond being naive–it is an intentional suppressing of truth, justice and mercy. It is about controlling the narrative and the congregants–it is not about truth, righteousness or justice. God, save us from ourselves!
Brenda Ratcliff
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So, what we have here is an example of The Village Church, (a Southern Baptist Church?) failing to recognize, or attempting to prevent or impede, a member’s resignation, thereby purportedly retaining coercive authority over the one who would depart. Village Church appears to have taken a page from the Mormon playbook. See http://www.mormonresignation.com/
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Brenda, (not to be confused wtih Brenda R)
It has been a difficult few days. My heart goes out to all survivors. You can’t help but be sucked into the emotions with all of the triggering responses.
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Here was the article that mentioned that Josh Duggar was sent to a Gothard facility:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093250/Faith-healing-clinic-Josh-Duggar-sought-treatment-repeatedly-molesting-young-girls-founder-resigned-accusations-sexually-harassed-teenagers.html
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Brenda I am heartbroken as well. This has to be spoken out against firmly and strongly.
Here is a good read:http://www.wickedshepherds.com/ShouldPastorsBeCaredFor.html
Part of his quote on this article:
“What we will do in this article, as we do in all of our articles, is to put the Word of God ahead of all man-made teachings and creeds which leave off the “every word” part of Christ’s statement to the adversary in Matthew 4:4, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”
If the Word shatters cherished beliefs, then we are willing to be shattered, no matter how painful it is. Isn’t God’s Truth more important than personal belief, and loyalty to that Truth more important than loyalty to traditions, the commandments of men, or our local church?
When we are willing to drop all our pre-conceived ideas and ask the Lord for His wisdom and only His wisdom, then we will be on the right path to learning what is truth and what is error. When we become willing to believe what God will teach us, regardless of what anyone says, then we will be on the right path to learning truth.
It is a shameful tragedy that many men will exert such anti-biblical rule and control over the saints of God and brazenly assert that binding your consciences to care for your pastors is in harmony, even the requirement, of our Lord Jesus Christ. What is needful is for God’s people to realize that what IS in harmony, and what IS a requirement of our Lord Jesus Christ is to expose and stand in opposition to this outrageous claim by those who “lord it over” those in the church.
The world has become, as Jesus foretold, a field of wheat and tares; a field of genuine believers and counterfeits. These are indeed perilous times we live in. The devil’s favorite place to trap people and bring them into bondage is not your local tavern or drug dealer, nor is it with religions like Hinduism, Islam, etc. No, the devil’s favorite place to render powerless God’s people is a pulpit in a church that advertises itself as a “God glorifying” and “Christ-centered” church.
We need to very carefully examine ourselves and ask where our loyalties rest. Have we believed and practiced something just because our church or pastor said it was biblical and true?
Can’t we see how dangerous this is?
“Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually examined. But he that is spiritual examines all things, and he himself is examined of no man.” 1 Corinthians 2:14-15″
I think that this “care of pastors” is not only a monetary thing, but also extends to emotionally and spiritually coddling the pastor or elders. They have been acting like Divas. As we see with Karen (and others) these pastors are expecting that their very existence depends on others to keep the church going for quote “the Gospels sake”.
Whatever!! It does not matter if sin runs rampant, the IC is god!
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Okay…I wrote this response and emailed it off to The Village. Let’s see what happens!
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/23/the-explicit-gospel-at-matt-chandlers-the-village-includes-child-pornography-church-discipline-and-membership-covenants/
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Here is Richard Hammer’s (Harvard-educated attorney) infographic showing the top reasons that churches are sued every year. This is from his website Church & Tax Law.
Reason No. 1 – each and every year – child sexual abuse.
http://www.churchlawandtax.com/web/2014/july/top-5-reasons-churches-end-up-in-court.html
The Village Church has a huge legal liability with this man Jordan they are defending.
The leadership can be criminally prosecuted for not reporting as they are required to do by law; the church can also be sued civilly for any child(ren) that were sexually abused there.
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“Here was the article that mentioned that Josh Duggar was sent to a Gothard facility:”
Yes, I saw that. Then I read JimBob could not remember the name of the facility they sent Josh to. I find that hard to believe, if it was a Gothard facility. How could you forget that? And Michelle said Josh was sent to a friend’s home to help remodel something.
“Jim Bob then “met with the elders of his church and told them what was going on.” No one alerted the police or any other law enforcement agency. Instead they decided to send Josh to a “program [that] consisted of hard physical work and counseling. James said that [redacted, Josh] was in the program from March 17, 2003 until July 17, 2003.”
He said the program was a “Christian program.” Michelle Duggar later admitted to police that Josh did not receive counseling and instead had been sent during that time to a family friend who was in the home remodeling business.
Asked about the training center that Jim Bob said Josh was sent to, Michelle told police, according to the report, “it was not really a training center. Det. [Darrell] Hignite asked if the guy [redacted, Josh] talked to was a certified counselor. She said no. She said it was a guy they know in Little Rock that is remodeling a building. Det. Hignite asked if the guy was more of a mentor. She said “kind of.””
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From Patheos-
“James said that they found out about a Christian program in Little Rock which they felt more comfortable with. James said that he could not remember the name of the program, but that it was conducted by a Christian ministry in the old Veterans Hospital in Little Rock and the man who ran it was Harold Walker. James said that he thought that the program was affiliated with the Little Rock Police Department since they had a station in the same building. James said that the program consisted of hard physical work and counseling. James said that [Josh] was in the program from March 17, 2003 until July 17, 2003.
As for the program Josh was sent to,
Michelle [Duggar] told police, according to the report, “it was not really a training center. Det. [Darrell] Hignite asked if the guy [redacted, Josh] talked to was a certified counselor. She said no. She said it was a guy they know in Little Rock that is remodeling a building. Det. Hignite asked if the guy was more of a mentor. She said “kind of.””
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/05/22/after-he-was-accused-of-child-molestation-josh-duggars-family-did-everything-wrong/
If the old Vets building and Harold Walker are of the Gothard training center, how could JimBpb NOT remember that?
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“Jim Bob Duggar initially said upon finding out about his actions, they sent their son to a “Christian ministry” for some “hard physical work and counseling,” but Michelle Duggar later revealed they simply sent him to stay with a family friend for a period of time.”
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/22/politics/josh-duggar-molestation-2016-conservatives/
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I am so full of words but can’t get anything on the page.
This is the garbage that’s taken me years to crawl out from under. And this teaching is so prevalent in the church, it’s almost impossible to get away from.
(I’m reeling from the “mingling of souls” clip– How proud he looks of the little wifey.)
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw:
“Jesus, Please Save Us From Your Followers.”
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Here is something about Integrity Construction–evidently. this was a part of Gothard’s center at one time. This might explain the remodeling training Josh was sent to while living with that friend.
“Dailey said he’d called Gothard to get an update of what was happening with the training center. The training center, which features a huge, but unmanned and quiet, wood-paneled lobby with a maroon carpeting and chairs upholstered in white fabric, employs seven people, director R.T. Spivey said. It serves the chaplains in the IBLP’s PAL prison program. At one time, the training center operated the “Integrity Construction Institute” for young men, but that program has moved to Alpena.
I’m trying to track down the “Integrity Construction Institute (“for young men”) – various outfits are called “Integrity Construction”, but the ‘for young men’ bit, and Michelle Dugar’s “remodeling a building” makes it sound like they used ‘troubled’ young men as free labour for construction projects. And all owned by Bill Gothard, good friend of Mike Huckabee, governor of Arkansas from 1996 to 2007.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026715306
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With so many differing stories, it’s making it difficult to tell which is the truth. I’m finding these changing responses to be troublesome.
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Lise. I think many are on your same page. You are not alone!
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Just listened to the Matt Chandler video on the watch keep blog…. that was scary. Reminded me of “narcissistic rage” when the narc gets his ego ruffled by anyone daring to question or express objection regarding his abusive or manipulative behavior. Also this brought to mind that the narc will use “projection” and “blame shifting” and accuse his target of what he is guilty of. This is just my personal opinion based on what I’ve read via Psychology resources about NPD and related issues.
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Here’s what I posted. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=744431959010603&id=266400143480456
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I think I should apologize for posting that Lauren Chandler video about a wife’s response to her husband’s sexual sin.
I posted it so people reading would get a glimpse of what possible counsel one could expect to receive if a wife found herself in that situation. The video was beyond disgusting. I am very sorry that I didn’t include a warning that the contents would be troubling to some readers here. I should have been more sensitive to that.
I apologize and will try to remember to post a warning next time. Since I have no experience with spiritual abuse or complementarian theology, it’s easy for me to just post and forget that the precious people reading here have had horrible experiences with the things I am posting and that it will bring back memories. Please forgive me for my lack of sensitivity to you.
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As this church is SBC, and they are just about everywhere, people will get the impression that Christians support pedophiles over the non-pedophile spouse. And it will not do to tell people “well, each congregation is independent” or “they are Baptists, I am Wesleyan or Lutheran or (insert your denomination here).”
Many people will get the impression that Christians have it upside down.
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Why should one submit to elders if the elders don’t have a lick of sense?
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“Here’s what I posted. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=744431959010603&id=266400143480456”
I just don’t have words………. I am sorry Karen.
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“Here’s what I posted”
Just remember, this is the kind of care they want to push Karen under.
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Here is the thing also- Chandler and Co. will rant, then say they are sorry.
This is just a way to use “shock and awe” and then lessen the blow by a half-hearted apology.
All of us know what is going on- Chandler and the rest of you so-called so-called shepherds.
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scott said
For you (with affection, and at your request):
“Snap out of it, Scott!”
“Snap Out of It!” Video on You Tube
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@Scott,
Daisy has given you good advice Scott. Run from that church. As for communion, I just buy some Jewish Matzoh crackers and grape juice (or use red wine) and I take communion at home.
The Wartburg Watch has e-church on Sundays from Pastor Wade Burleson’s church in Enid, OK. Wade is a friend of Dee and Deb’s at The Wartburg Watch.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/16/echurchwartburg-5-17-15/
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So these “shepherds” at this Southern Baptist “church” decide they need to do some preemptive damage control, and they send all the members an email to prepare them for the fact that their own Jordan Root has some unidentified sin problem. How do the title the email? Do they title it “Important News about Jordan Root?” Oh no. They title it “Important News about Jordan and KAREN Root.” (Emphasis added).
What’s with that? Do these cultural and spiritual descendants of slave owners think women are so inextricably subsumed into their husbands’ identities that a husband’s sin cannot be addresses without bringing his wife into the conversation?
The email was dated April 1, 2015. Would that the folly had been limited to April Fools Day.
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Daisy said:
Yes. It seems in the comp world, whenever they claim women have some weakness (sin of Eve, PMS, other obnoxious notions…), that becomes a reason for a limitation on what women can do (speak in church, lead a group, …).
Whereas whenever men actually demonstrate a weakness (lusted, committed adultery, abused children, other horrifying acts…), that also becomes a reason for a limitation on what women can do (annul a marriage or leave the church without elder approval, dress “immodestly”, …).
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Ok guys this is getting “better” (sarcastic)…….. I do not if anyone else has posted this
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/may/josh-duggar-of-19-kids-and-counting-apologies-resigns-after.html
“In 2006, police interviewed Jim Bob and Josh’s mother, Michelle. According to InTouch:
Jim Bob told police in 2006 that when Josh returned home in 2003, Jim Bob, accompanied by some of his church elders, took Josh to Arkansas State Trooper, Jim Hutchens. Jim Bob knew Hutchens personally. Hutchens did not take any official action and instead gave Josh a “very stern talk.” As In Touch magazine reports exclusively in this week’s issue, Hutchens is now serving 56-years in prison for child pornography. He took no action on the Duggar case.”
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“I do not know if anyone else has posted this”…..
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“We have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders. As I mentioned in my first letter, this decision violates your covenant with us – and places you under discipline. ”
Kiss pedophile bottom, discipline woman who hates for children to be sexually exploited, got it. Any one who continues going to this church or respecting these men do not hate child sexual abuse.
Every day I see Christians picking men, money, and power over sexually exploited children.
Submit.
Discipline.
Authority.
Same things men who keep sex slaves to sexually terrorize are obsessed with.
When I hear stories like Ariel Castro and Phillip Garrido, they remind me of what many Christian men are trying to create for themselves and other men.
I was sexually abused the first ten years of my life by a southern Baptist misogynistic Christian man who was fixated with female submission to men. My father was also a misogynist fixated with man power, my father tried to get be to believe that rape was not that big of a deal. Getting women and children to think sexual abuse is something to get over quickly is very important to many Christian men, I wonder why.
We can see that many of you do not think sexual abuse is prison worthy.
I believe that most of Christianity is about man power. Loser, creepy, petty men who cant handle the real world and are scared women or little girls would tell them they are vile and to take a long walk off a short pier, something that should have been said to my self worshipping father. They have created a culture that is all about MEN getting their bottoms kissed, how dare a woman to not kiss MALE bottom, to not want to be married to a man who looks at child porn.
Most Christian men in my family were sexually sadistic towards under age girls, they decided they deserved female submission, just like any man who has a sex slave in a cage, we were to kiss male bottom at all cost.
I am a survivor of hyper conservative Christianity, ( man power) woman/girl submit like a canine and sex slave.
I am not a dog! It hurts very much to live like a canine or sex slave in bondage, many Christian men have the spirit of Ariel Castro, they really do.
I hope as a survivor of this misogynistic/slavery/misery that people start putting many Christian men in the same category with Ariel Castro and Phillip Garrido, as someone who grew up in this I will say, they deserve to be there!
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Permit me to recommend http://brendafindingelysium.blogspot.com/2015/05/heartbroken-and-angry.html
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@100PinkApples,
I don’t know if you saw my comment to you here on another story: You are an awesome write and awesome woman!
Many years ago I was riding a bus in the San Francisco Bay Area and the transit system had poems posted on the inside. I could never shake this one poem…and I wanted to share it with you.
“Paper Matches
My aunts washed dishes while the uncles
squirted each other on the lawn with
garden hoses. Why are we in here,
I said, and they are out there?
That’s the way it is,
said Aunt Hetty, the shriveled-up one.
I have the rages that small animals have,
being small, being animal.
Written on me was a message,
“At Your Service,”
like a book of paper matches.
One by one we were taken out
and struck.
We come bearing supper,
our heads on fire.”
― Paulette Jiles
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Thank you, Gary, I just asked Brenda if I could post it here and she said, “absolutely.” We need to listen to Brenda’s powerful voice!
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@Scott,
Here’s tomorrow’s E-Church service from The Wartburg Watch (since you rightfully don’t want to sign a church membership covenant and get in to that controlling nonsense).
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/23/echurchwartburg-5-24-15/
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BeenThereDoneThat said,
Does Laurie’s faith hinge on the public display of a Christian plaque or a Jesus statue?
I used to get worked up over this sort of thing. I’m still conservative.
No, I don’t agree when extreme liberals or militant atheists have fits over this stuff either, but I’m tired of Christians who keep pitching fits about this sort of thing too.
I am not even sure Christians should take it (it = lack of public expression of the faith) as a barometer of how the Christian faith is doing.
I think when the Christian faith began, believers in Jesus (mostly Jewish guys at the start, I think) were persecuted back then, and then Christians were persecuted under the ancient Romans.
I don’t think Christians back in Rome early A.D. had monuments and plaques honoring Jesus all over their cities….. and they did okay. I mean, the faith did not go away. (Which is not to say I support over-zealous atheists, humanists, etc, trying to force Christians to keep their faith in private only.)
But I no longer on fire for the Christians who make so much out of prayer being removed from public schools, and so on.
As far as Laurie’s comments about Christian monuments being removed from public squares. I assume he means things such as sculptures of The Ten Commandments?
I think I read some time back that the first time the Ten Commandments were put in public, it was by a Hollywood studio to PROMOTE A MOVIE ABOUT MOSES.
This is from a page called:
“6 Iconic Things You Won’t Believe Began as Publicity Stunts”
#5. The Public Ten Commandments Monuments Were Created to Promote the Movie
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Or, P.S.
Maybe I misread Laurie’s comments, and he meant by “public proclamations,” that there are no longer as many Billy Graham type crusades going on?
Does the Bible say to hold large scale, Billy Graham type crusades? Or does Jesus say to approach your neighbor, or small groups of people (as in the book of Acts).
I don’t recall God saying in the New Testament that only large- scale, football stadium sized, Christian evangelizing functions or contexts (which is what Laurie does with his Harvest Crusades, like Billy Graham used to) were the only godly, or only approved way, of reaching the un-saved.
(I’m not arguing against stadium crusade type things per se, by the way. I’m just saying I don’t think they are absolutely necessary to spread the Gospel.)
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“(I’m not arguing against stadium crusade type things per se, by the way. I’m just saying I don’t think they are absolutely necessary to spread the Gospel.)”
There was a local Christian event here recently that was held in a university football stadium. Churches sent busloads of people from out of town to attend.
Two of the keynote speakers were a local couple who have a HGTV fixer-upper show. I assume they were hand picked by event organizers because they would draw a crowd. A neighbor who lives across the street from them says that once a month they get into a screaming fight that ends up in the front yard. I’m sure that’s not what they shared with the crowd.
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Diane posted a link to an atheist site about the Duggar story (Duggar Story on Atheist Site)
I was just saying on the newer thread that I recently tried talking to some of my fellow conservatives and Republicans on a political blog about this.
Some of them want to rally the troops around Duggar because the left might be using the Duggar story as anti-right fodder. I told them it’s really bad to put politics before child abuse or the victims.
For me pointing some of this out on the political site, some of the more rude conservatives were hinting at me, or accusing me of, being a Democrat, liberal, or feminist (I am none of those things).
What I find interesting about Diane’s link to the atheist site about the Duggar story:
If atheists (and yes, liberals) are noticing that people on “your” side of politics or religion are misbehaving, and they noticing there are obvious problems in how your community is handling something, rather than automatically telling them to shut up, you might learn a thing or two from them.
Just because they are your ideological opponents does not necessarily make their points wrong.
I think conservatives and Christians should be among the first to call out abuse and protect victims when it happens in their own midst or by one of their own, not water it down and then yell and scream at the liberals or atheists who bring attention to it.
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Loretta said,
Sorry to go a little off topic, but I just wanted to say this sounds like my big sister – she does that same stuff, though she’s never been diagnosed with NPD.
I think my sister may be run of the mill self-absorbed. She is definitely verbally abusive.
(Other than processing the death of my mother, my sister and her behavior has been one of the other big obstacles I’ve been having to slog through the last few years, and I’ve not had anyone to talk to in real life about it.)
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Yes, you did. When he told me specific details of how his elders were handling things and he was very humble on the phone with me, I had hope that things had a chance of changing. As soon as he had access to his social media platform, humility left. I was sad to see this.
____________________________________
You know what JA? You have integrity, you can admit when you were wrong. That immediately puts you in the category of people with whom I’m acquainted who demonstrate Christ-like behavior. No knock on you for trying desperately to see the best in JD and hope beyond hope that he was capable of repentance and not just a full-blown monster. That too, is a sign that you are the Real Deal. And to admit it to someone as acerbic as me, all the more to your credit.
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Teaching boys to avert their eyes when seeing an “immodest” female is definitely taught in the Homeschool Movement. It’s part of the Purity Culture. I found that my boys wanted to become modesty police and they were on the lookout for any female who didn’t pass their test (which they learned from CON). Thankfully, after we left, things got back to normal again.
_______________________________________________________
We homeschool. We have more children than Doug & Beall Phillips. We are born-again Christians. But I say this not to put myself in opposition to you, JA, but to let you know that I know EXACTLY what you’re saying when you reference the “homeschool movement” as opposed to people who merely homeschool.
We once ran with the so-called homeschool movement (in the Deep South no less!), attended their meetings, went to their conferences and tried our level best to get along with them. They do their utmost to make you think you need their fellowship (and when you’re fighting societal pressures of being thought perfectly mad because you have a huge family and have to listen to endless commentary from regular people such as “You know what causes that?”, “Must be something in the water!”, “Are you crazy?”, etc., it can be very tough to resist the “helping hand” of a “kindred spirit”) and you come to think you need it, but you find in time, with most of them I’ve met, that it comes at such a cost that I’d rather have my children run with right bleeding atheists than the average homeschooler.
After running with them for a couple years we’d been thoroughly burned by a deeply disturbed homeschooling mother of many who tried her level best to put herself between us and our children and then, the coup de gras, those fine homeschooling families spread a vicious rumor that our oldest daughter had undergone an abortion at our direction. Total and absolute lies.
Give me a forthright in-your-face bunch of atheists any day over a purity-loving idolatrous homeschooling family.
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“Give me a forthright in-your-face bunch of atheists any day over a purity-loving idolatrous homeschooling family.” truthdetector
I hear ‘ya! I was invited to go out to lunch and hiking by two gay men (hairdressers) the week after I was ordered to be excommunicated/shunned from my church of eight years and to be treated as dead. (My crime? I wasn’t ‘on board’ with the pastors/elders giving membership to their friend a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List and putting him in to positions of trust and leadership without telling all parents and members. They excommunicated/shunned anyone that dissented. First up to be treated so despicably, a godly older doctor who is a long-time close personal friend of Pastor John MacArthur’s of the well-known Grace Community Church in Southern California.)
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@ Michaela
“awesome write” Lol
I wish.
I love Charlotte Bronte. Dyslexia is very annoying to those who appreciates good English.
“I have the rages that small animals have,
being small, being animal.”
Many take advantage of the sad fact that animals cant speak and say, this scares me, this hurts me.
Many think God screwed up giving women and children voices.
The poem is really clever, I like it. Thank you Michaela 😉
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Diane,
I understand the reason for your apology for putting up that video of Lauren Chandler addressing a husband’s infidelity. It bothered me as well, but it wasn’t a trigger since I have been out of an abusive cult for quite some time. Anyway, I was looking for the video and couldn’t find it on The Village’s website. I wanted to take a listen again for my own benefit, and for the benefit of any Christian woman that I may encounter who holds to this kind of erroneous view of marriage. If you could direct me to the place where you found the video, I’d appreciated it.
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Diane,
Never mind. I just found the video.
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