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As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.
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Warning: this is a heavy and disturbing article.
As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations. For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.
I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.
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But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?
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One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking. The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal. If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical. Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical. Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?
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As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc. What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.
One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.
I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.
Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses. Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew. This is going on elsewhere.
We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.
Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.
I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.
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Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm
“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.
I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?
Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm
I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.
Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.
Ghirard Says:
December 30, 2013 at 11:08 am
Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.
Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced. We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:
After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.
Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:
December 30, 2013 at 12:27 pm
It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.
JPGR Says:
December 28, 2013 at 8:21 am
I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.
My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?
Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….
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I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement. Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening. So what is a godly response to ungodliness?
Exposure!
Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.
Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.
Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?
Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?
She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.
These women need our prayers and our help. We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty. We have voices and must speak up for them.
photo credit: bark via photopin cc
Updated note: Slight modification of title and removed key words See note in comments.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Ok, Eric. I got your point. I disagree with you and we’re at a stalemate. I’m not going to change my mind, nor repent because I believe what I shared was valid for discussion and consideration.
Let’s be good stewards of our time by dropping it now. Besides, I’ve got to give my kid a spelling test.
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eric,
You had said: ”
Calvinism does NOT teach wife spanking. That is a ridiculous claim. Some of the most tender and caring husbands I know, and the staunchest defenders of cherishing women are life long calvinist and teach at calvinist universities. That claim doesnt even deserve a response. Just because you can find “calvinism” and “wife spanking” in the far fringe of google does not make it a real connection. Thats like saying google “aminianism” and “child abuse”… see its on google, Arminianism leads to child abuse. Thats just plain dumb.”
My response: Whatever you say, dude. You can’t be taken serious when you deny the obvious. Deep down inside those so called caring husbands that cherish their wives, the religious nut cases are preaching to “spank dat ass”. Wife spanking is not a new thing at all. Women actually submit to it…even some out of sexual gratification. So don’t tell me that it is a ridiculous claim when we all know better. The word Calvinism is in my google search with wife spanking, so read it and weep, buddy. Ed
________________________________
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Eric,
The men that push this stuff — actually Sproul himself has been drawn into question by Calvinists, and his doctrines have been deemed problematic. His past behavior has been deemed problematic. I would say that most Calvinists reject the lion’s share of doctrine related to how to treat women, and how to approach both family and homeschooling. This guy is considered fringe. I took heat in a lecture for mentioning SBTS faculty in the same talk with Sproul and Phillips. They think he’s fringe. Shortly after I gave a talk on this subject, staff at SBTS started speaking out against the movement that Sproul helped foster.
Sproul most definitely doesn’t represent all Calvinists, and most don’t teach spanking. That’s why this subject is an issue.
A few comments ago, you said I came here to defend my internet hero. What on earth are you doing? And you don’t even appear to know this guy’s history. I’d be more scrupulous about picking heroes.
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It’s garbage like this that makes the one of the number one searches from google hits coming into my blog on a Sunday afternoon pertain to husbands spanking wives…
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“You dont get to publicise terrible, aweful comments about a person and their deceased wife on YOUR blog, under YOUR name, claim you did YOUR due diligence and vetted the testimony, tweet it, demand a position paper, then bow out and say “I didnt make the claims”. You publicized them, you spread them. If they are true then produce your eyewitness testimony to the proper authorities. If you dont have proof you shouldnt be slandering someone. Its really that simple.”
Sure she can. And you have the right to NOT like it. If Sproul or anyone else has a problem with it, they can sue. Sproul’s dad tried to sue a blogger years back to shut him up. Sproul Jr, should know what is involved in disproving people telling their side of the story on blogs. Of course, Ligonier had some deep pockets and lawyers on retainer. Donors are generous to help pay for such things even if they are not told what their donations are used for. Para church ministry can be very lucrative.
Their big problem now is they do not control the communication streams anymore. That was a big part of creating their own kingdoms and now they have less control over the internet. What a shame. It is not boding well for charlatans. JA got sued over a google review! That is how thin skinned your heroes can be who make bank off Jesus.
Besides Eric, you have forgotten that many of us (speaking for myself and others I know) could CARE LESS what you call us or accuse us of. There is a legal definition of slander and a legal definition of libel. Stick with that and the fact it is a good thing to warn of wolves. I would pay money to see Sproul Jr have a real job in the real world. He would last 5 minutes. He might even have a female boss. Perhaps he would call her a “white witch”, too as he referred to Doris Hooper who originally funded Ligonier, in his Ligonier Tales. (which was deleted from the internet during his defrocking debacle)
Your accusing folks here of gossip ain’t working. It boils down to the fact that you either are ignorant of the history of all this OR you agree with guys like Sproul and
Wilson. So which is it? Many Piper fans who revere Piper fell in love with Wilson when Piper had him speak at DG. I was amazed at how many of them knew nothing about his writings and views on slavery. They were totally ignorant and had not done their homework because if Piper promoted him, he must be ok. Taht is the level of intelligence in many Neo CAl pastor circles. The wolves leading the ignorant young men. Independent thinking is a rarity these days.
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Cindy,
Sproul is not my hero. I’m not Presbyterian. I’m not a homeschooler. etc. etc. Thats not the point. Just because he’s theologically “fringy” that doesnt make him a wife beater. And for a Christian to blast across the internet that someone is a wife beater without ANY evidence at all (at least shes not producing it) is not right. Its not the way I would want to be treated and its not the way I would want even my enemies to be treated.
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Eric
You used the term “slander”. It has a particular meaning: “A statement known to be false or made in reckless disregard of whether it is true or false, made with the intent to harm the person about whom it is made.” By that standard, you have slandered JA as much or more than she “slandered” anyone. Because she did not make a statement that she knew to be false and she did not make a statement with reckless disregard of whether it was true or not. That is the standard. So you need to retract the allegation of slander, because you made that statement in reckless disregard of whether it was true or not, because, in fact, it was false.
Sorry about the time lag, I was in court today.
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And Julie did not lie, and she did not bear false witness. She reported what she knew and how she knew it, and the context. And if Sproul wants to comment, I am sure his comment would be published here. But he won’t, because what JA said was actually true.
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lydia,
this sight is called the “spiritual” sounding board, not the “legal” sounding board. It is moderated by a person claiming to be a Christian and claiming she is doing a spiritual service to people. If that is really the case the issue is not merely legal definitions and simply saying whatever you feel like until someone sues you. Are definitions are to be biblical one and are behaviors are to be Christlike. Thats a higher standard than merely a legal one.
I find it interesting that no one takes offense that Julie said some truly awful things about another person, things (by her own admission) that she neither witnessed or can prove, things this article doesnt even give one thread of evidence for, things directed towards a person she has never met, or even tried contacting, never tried contacting his church, or even local authorities. About a person whos wife has recently passed away and whose dead wife has no ability to respond and defend herself. People on this board take NO offense to any of that,
But if you come here to her board, and engage her directly, personally, about what she has written… not hearsay, not what someone said about her, but interact with her own article which she admits ““I have no way of validating the comments above” … THAT you guys take offense to. This board is amazing.
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Cindy – it’s an every day occurrence on my blog.
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I think I have legal grounds to sue eric for defamation.
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Both Dee (Wartburg Watch blog) and I invited him the opportunity to release a positional statement on wife spanking on Twitter yesterday and :::::crickets:::::
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Actually, Sproul’s response was “I have told you I never taught it, never did it, and that is is wicked. I have called it a vile lie. How is this not a denouncement?” But I guess thats not a “Positional Statement” so :::::crickets:::::
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What? eric is still hanging in there? Can’t just have his say and let it go? He really does seem to be exhibiting characterological tendencies reminiscent of those of oh so many others who come here a teachin’ an’ a preachin’. Readers who have been around a bit will understand when I suggest eric exhibits symptoms of what could be called Q syndrome.
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Gary, do you ever talk about the actual content of an article on this blog or is this your normal pattern? Do you always just continually questions the motives of every commentator who questions outrageous claims? If I dont accept those claims without question must I be motivated by mysterious conspiracies? or perhaps I have some kind of mental problem?… sheeesh, you guys are too much!
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Eric,
please provide a reference to the statement you quoted so that we can go verify it. Otherwise it must be a lie, right, by your own standard.
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I will leave this to be the echo chamber that you clearly want it to be.
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Altert! Alter! eric eric who who never never makes makes the the same same point point over over and and over over again again is is leaving leaving!! Too Too funny funny!!
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Eric,
Wife beating should be distinguished from what is officially called “Christian Domestic Discipline” which is popular within Sproul’s following and circles. It should also be distinguished from BDSM (a mnemonic I learned about when reading about this phenomenon). “CDD” is touted as a legitimate Christian practice supported by Hebrews 12 (?), and is necessary in many of these circles because women are thought to be little more than a type of child who is under the direction of her husband. Wilson who ordained Sproul says that fathers are like God the Father, women analogous to Jesus in a Trinity hierarchy, and children are like the Holy Spirit. Women are under the direction of their husbands, and they need discipline, too. That’s what husbands and sometimes the church is for!
Study up, honey. More than one person made the claim that Sproul practiced Christian Domestic Discipline. This is different than wife beating and has nothing to do with it. CDD is a husband’s duty before God, if you’re into that sort of thing.
You’ve got to do quite a bit of reading in the so called Biblical patriarchy literature. You know, the movement that Sproul helped establish.
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Eric: “Sproul’s response was I have told you I never taught it, never did it, and that is is wicked. I have called it a vile lie. How is this not a denouncement?” But I guess thats not a “Positional Statement” so :::::crickets:::::
My Reformed pastor-father who sexually and physically abused his children said the same thing when confronted.
This is more complicated than you want to make it, in your headlong desire to believe those who have power/leadership/authority rather than those who have to whisper the truth to others, in their shame and pain.
You are clueless of the problematic systems inside abusive homes, and of how some theologies/philosophies can be used to excuse them, yet you come slinging judgment and contempt as if you are wisdom itself. I’ve known several pastors with your attitude. Are you a pastor?
Julie Anne is careful and she is a person to whom people will write/call/talk about abuse. She is also protective of those who bring their stories, which is the big reason people trust her with them. That protection is because of such as yourself, who want so badly to not believe them that you will demand the already-damaged people stand before all and take even more hits for the home team.
I doubt you are aware of any of this. It does you no credit to spew in ignorance.
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Another one bites the dust. Another one bites the dust.
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Patrice,
You ask if eric is a pastor. You have no doubt noticed that he didn’t answer the same question when I put it to him. He is very adamant to assert “I am NOT a proponent of patriarchy, I am NOT a proponent of wife spanking or abuse of anyone answhere for that matter, I am NOT a fan of Sproul, or Gothard, or Phillips. . .”
But to our question whether he is a pastor? Dead silence. Well, now that we are being shunned in (all too often) true pastoral manner, I guess we’ll never know.
Really, I am grateful that there are pastors with true shepherds hearts who comment here.
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JA note to Cindy: I fixed it. To post tweets, just click on the Twitter time stamp to grab the link and post the link in the comment, nothing else. WordPress will show the whole tweet. It’s pretty easy.
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Oh, heck! You’ve got to go look at the pic.
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I just read through most of the comments on this post because I am interested in the issue mentioned , i.e. churches teaching that a husband has the authority/duty to spank his wife. The only comment with much content on this question came from Cindy K, who actually stated the name of this “movement” . Thank you for identifying “Christian Domestic Discipline”. It seems to me that a focus on the prevalence, or lack of same, would be profitable.
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Cindy wrote: “More than one person made the claim that Sproul practiced Christian Domestic Discipline”.
May we have some references? Things from your own blog will do fine, as I consider you to be one of the leading experts today on these matters.
So far, just from this article and thread, I have heard of only one verified witness– someone who spoke to Julie Anne in confidence. But I didn’t read about that witness in the OP.
J A — Did you mention this witness up thread? I may have missed it, since most of the thread went down the Calvin rabbit trail. I would have more confidence in your OP if you had mentioned what this person told you, rather than the Jen’s Gems commenters. What they said seems believable, but I try to consider the source. I’ve read, oh, maybe one or two things from that source (JG) which I’ve taken with a shaker or two of salt. 😦
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Keith,
Keith,
Just go to “ChristianDomesticDiscipline” Dot com. On this kind of matter, I don’t think that we’ll ever get good statistics because of the bad press. It was once discussed on a complementarian forum that was owned by CBMW but was sold to Bill Mouser. People are smart enough to keep this stuff quiet because they know that it will be met with opposition.
And having posted things about this online in the past, the strange traffic that it brings in to one’s blog is not worth the effort. There’s plenty to be read in the forums, and if people need help, they can contact people like Julie Anne or me or with whomever they feel comfortable to find help sorting things out.
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Never write blog problems when having a conversation, especially when the cat is crying… Blech! You get the point.
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Eric– hopefully you’re still reading even if no longer commenting.
“I dont’ know what “R U Q” is… so whatever it is, I guess I’m not?”
…………………. “Q” was a commenter recently who, amongst other things, objected to “The Message”. I saw from your your tweets that you object to “The Message”, so just thought I’d ask. (BTW. I don’t like “The Message” either.)
“My “persuasion” is independent baptist, although I would prefer simply “bible believing / Christ follower”. People tend to like to lump people into tribes so if its helpful to you I’m probably in the John MacArthur/Mark Dever tribe.”
…:……………… But aren’t MacArthur and Dever kindasorta reformed? Dever considers himself the same “tribe” as the Presbyterian Duncan, right?
“I’m just trying to be honest here and comment on something that I thought was awful. I’ve used my real name, not anonymous pseudonym. I just wouldnt want to be condemned as doing something terrible by someone then have them simply say “I have no way of validating the comments above” .”
…………………. I tend to agree with you about the un-validated comments. I’m hoping to get some further evidence/references in support of including RCjr in the CDD crowd, before I include him. Even if I decide to do so, it doesn’t mean he would be “condemned” by me.
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Dave: The following is information that was given by the witness I spoke with. All of this is cut and pasted from the original article. (I hope I’m understanding what you wanted to know, Dave.) For the record, in this case, the comments from Jen’s Gems very well may be accurate.
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“this sight is called the “spiritual” sounding board, not the “legal” sounding board. It is moderated by a person claiming to be a Christian and claiming she is doing a spiritual service to people. If that is really the case the issue is not merely legal definitions and simply saying whatever you feel like until someone sues you. Are definitions are to be biblical one and are behaviors are to be Christlike. Thats a higher standard than merely a legal one.”
Eric, Your comments here most likely work in the world you live in. Most likely you are used to folks who are aghast you accuse them of “gossip” and quake in their pumps to defend themselves or shrink away ashamed because of YOUR words. Your definitions.
Some of us don’t live in that world. And don’t want to. It is not up to you to decide if JA is doing spiritual service or not.
And if you want to discuss Christlike behaviors it is interesting you defend Sproul. Take away the Domestic Discipline issue for a moment. There is not a lot outside of that to hang the Christlike moniker on him. One only had to read his Highland site to know his stance on women. The guy is a creep and seems very insecure of himself coming off as a bully. Wilson is much the same except more erudite than Sproul, Jr.
CindyK answered your other declarations and once again I add: You either do not know much about the movement guys like Sproul and Wilson are a part of OR you agree with it. Either way, I most certainly do not live in your world. Nor want to. So whatever you want to think is ok with me. :o)
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Julie Anne
Yes, that’s what I’m wondering about. Earlier in the post you said, “A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc,”
Is this the same witness you described in more detail this morning?
and then Was RCjr one of the names involved? Did he witness RCjr either teaching or “demonstrating” CDD?
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Dave: yes, yes, and yes
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It really disturbs me how disrespected women are in so many churches.Men without women couldn’t pull off this ****. Without women men would be nothing. So men need women to feel superior. To themselves? To other men? To women? So if women opted out, what then? Sorry, just rambling.
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Cindy:
So does the venerable Fr. Bill advocate wife-spanking? And what of his partners-in-crime, the fabulous Bully Boys?
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Gary W (26.1:56pm) Yeah, that’s why I asked again about pastoring. Being an old fart, I keep forgetting that we can look people up.
Twitter says he works for a tool and die. Google+ shows him in OH, east of Columbus and south of Cleveland, in a small Baptist church at which he and a male relative are on deacon board, and he heads the youth ministries. A female relative is church secretary.
http://www.calvarybyesville.org/leadership.htm
His church ties everyone down tight. They enjoy themselves some fat church Discipline. They are generous to grant membership transfers but only to those churches designated “of like faith and order”. W00t
Click to access CBC_Constitution.PDF
He recommended Driscoll’s opinions over a youtube by a young charismatic woman speaking against authoritarian pastors. He appears to relish boys-in-charge.
No wonder the guy doesn’t understand what Julie Anne writes about and thus cannot grasp the context into which the Sproul Jr info is set.
(Anyway, an interesting first-exercise in basic info-gathering. Huh….)
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S M-G,
The three you mentioned did not, as I recall. And I don’t believe that their wives would let them. I guess that they limited their velvet gloved violence and bandying about with their unsheathed swords was satisfaction enough.
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Speaking of not making some teaching public on purpose…., I am reminded of a few women who attended Acts 29 boot camp with their pastor wannabe husband. The husbands were told by Driscoll in a meeting that if their wives could not have sex they it was their duty to offer up their “backsides” to their husbands. Now, this was a few years back and finally some couples who left that hellhole of a movement spoke about it very carefully and only in safe venues. It was a teaching not to be discussed outside the movement. most do not understand how these guys can ruin your life if you talk in a way they don’t like. Even if you are no longer involved with them. I have seen people’s businesses ruined, etc, with a poison whisper campaign.
Years later this backside teaching became more well known. Driscoll’s book, Real Marriage, including other bizarre teaching sort of broke the ice on what he really thought. It is only a matter of time with this stuff. The internet has changed everything. Interesting, isn’t it? Driscoll promoting sodomy.
If one had been following Sproul from around 2004 till now, one could see easily how his condoning and even practicing wife spanking would no surprise.
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Patrice,
I’m impressed. I wouldn’t have known where to begin researching eric’s identity. Then again, I don’t do Facebook, Twitter or any other such thing. And, as to the question eric failed to answer (Are you a pastor or other person in a position of authority and power that needs to be protected?), the truth is that yes, he does have a position of authority and power to protect.
Still, I expect he would be very patient and understanding were somebody under his (man made) authority to have questions or express concerns about his leadership, always exerting great effort to understand and accommodate another person’s point of view.
Not.
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You had to bring up the unsheathed swords!
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Boy, do I need some caffeine or a Tylenol or something! I didn’t bring up the unsheathed swords very eloquently, nor did I follow the rules of grammar. Let me try again.
I guess that they limited their velvet gloved violence and bandying about with their unsheathed swords, and this was satisfaction enough.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with this erotica for manly Christian men.
From the Bayly Brothers’ “Wooing as Warfare”:
(oh, and yes, they hang with Doug Wilson)
The young man who pursues marriage enters a foreign land where he wages war.
. . .
But though a potential bride may be deeply loved, she’s also at some level the foe. To achieve victory the young man must not only win her, he must defeat her and her family, snatching her from their bosom, converting her to himself, breaking her natural bonds with father and mother, brother and sister, nurse and friend, dog and home. There’s little that’s tender about it. At funerals we cloak harsh reality in kind words and soft colors. So too, at weddings soft words and vibrant colors disguise a bloody truth. The wedding ceremony is really a mini-Versailles, an Appomattox-in-a-nutshell of capitulation and triumph, the surrender of one woman to one man, the victory song of groom over both bride and family.
. . .
It’s ironic that modern Christian thinking about wooing seeks to domesticate an inherently conflicted and dangerous process. The desire of many Christians in the realm of romance seems to be to render warfare safe—as though, unlike Christ’s battle for His bride, the way of a man with a virgin should be entirely risk-free and controlled.
The obvious problem with such an approach is that it doesn’t eradicate danger, it merely delays the necessary battles of courtship and wooing until after marriage—when the stakes are even higher and the costs of failure even greater.
. . .
It is war against sin. It is the breaking of families and established orders. It is secession and union all in one, penetration and insemination, not merely lacy ruffles and Pachelbel canons but velvet-gloved violence. All this courtship conceals.
. . .
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I would ask those of you who have been here awhile to be a little more gracious toward those who are newcomers here. I speak from experience. I am just now getting a grasp of how pervasive these movements are and trying to catch up.
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Cindy K: I completely reject analogizing husband/wife to conqueror and vanquished. Where do they get this? Certainly marriage is a “victory”, but it is a victory in the sense that the two become one, not that one defeats the other. i don’t see any scripture cited in your quote from the Bayly brothers, whoever they are.
Marriage equals “velvet-gloved” violence? I think I will stick to Pachelbel.
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lydiasellerofpurple:
Does he mean that the wife should submit to anal intercourse?
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All, I’m cramming on an important post and trying to get some schooling with kiddos done, but just noticed Bystander’s comment about being more gracious to newcomers. If you see something off in a comment, please alert me with the comment (time stamp and commenter’s name). spiritualsb@gmail dot com
Thanks much!
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Keith,
The Bayly Brothers are PCA minister sons of a minister that I never heard of, but I didn’t grow up Presby. One of the brothers was the first president of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, back before the mecca moved on to Louisville at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
I really don’t want to know where they get this stuff, but Wilson wrote something similar about sex in a somewhat recent book.
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Cindy – I found the Bayly article. I’m going to post it for discussion. This stuff is absolutely crazy.
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Julie Anne, I am referring to the interactions with Eric and to my earlier experience in trying to engage people on this board. I felt like I was being peppered with rotten vegetables. To make headway in this battle, the mainstream church population needs to become aware of the behaviors of the nationally known “leaders” whose down-and-dirty teachings and behaviors may not be all that well known. To accomplish this, you need to keep newcomers engaged here, not run them off. Ever since I read the post about the RCS Jr wife-spanking incident, I have hoped that the eye witness to that occasion would step forward. I would hope that this witness is no longer engaged with RCS Jr’s church and would have nothing to fear by speaking up. I can understand Eric’s initial reaction to this information and I have been following the twitter feeds, looking for Jr to address this. Granted, I have not been a follower of RCS Jr. I know almost nothing about his theology or his church. As I have said before, I have been engaged in a local congregation for over twenty years where I have invested my time, talents and treasures. I believe it to be a healthy church body. However, there are people in my larger circle who may be falling into some of the traps that others on this board have talked about. My objective for being here is learning, so that I can be effective as a member of the body.
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Keith,
I was warned on another blog not to comment on the Bayly blog if I decided to read over there. Apparently, they can be pretty vicious. They really are as warped as they sound from the quotes Cindy posted.
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Bystander: Your point is well taken. I, too, wish the witness would come forward with his identity. It’s a very difficult thing to do. I remember when I posted that first negative Google review, wondering if Chuck O’Neal would even see it and look what happened. And then when I started the blog and published the first post. It is a full on battle. I know the personal cost for me and it is something that each person must weigh themselves. I hold no judgment on those who decide not to reveal their identities because I completely get it.
And here’s the real issue: if this person did reveal his identity, would it make a difference? Are there other more effective ways of handling it?
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If this person revealed his identity, RCS Jr would not be able to deflect the issue any longer. I’ve seen his denials on Twitter, but I’m not convinced. Twitter is not my favorite forum, since I’m “old” and can’t quite get the 140 character thing. However, if this person’s account is true, I am betting that RC knows who it is. Truth has a way of breaking out no matter how much people try to keep it from showing up. Surely he remembers this scenario – unless, God forbid, there was more than one occasion.
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Not so quick, Bystander. Please tell me how my former pastor can be looked at with favor by Tony Miano, Fred Butler, allowed to schmooze with all things John MacArthur-ish, and in street evangelist circles when:
He went against scripture and sued 5 people?
He got his license revoked by a well-established and respected group of pastors?
Is currently in church discipline?
I can ask similar questions about CJ. It’s imperative to know how these systems work. Reputable people have broken silence against CJ and guess what – – he’s still pastoring, still speaking.
The church is a mess.
BTW, while RCJr. may know who this person is, I don’t think he could figure out – there are too many people who know about this practice.
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I understand completely the threat of being sued – but the fact that your former pastor lost and had to pay your attorney fees should send a statement to others who are contemplating bringing suits. In fact, the attorney that helped him bring the suit should have given him better advice. Slander, by definition, is untrue. Their first hurdle would have been to prove that the statements you made were untrue, and then they would have had to prove that the untrue statements damaged his reputation in some way. I’m in the insurance business (enough of that, though). But you are absolutely right, the church is a mess. And until we get the sin out of the camp, we will be ineffective in being the hands and feet of Jesus as we are called to be. I’m with you on this 100%. Help me help you!
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But, Bystander, are you getting that even tho he had to pay probably close to $100K – – – he’s still pastoring, still likely: running a cult, reading a Mark and Avoid list at each communion reminding people who they are supposed to shun, has his ridiculous rule on how long shorts can be, recording people’s private conversations and playing them for people who should not be privy to them.
What you and I see as obvious consequence, other respected leaders dismiss and allow abusing pastors to continue for any number of reasons – — because everything else sounds good, because they decide I’m a heathen, because their doctrine is right, yada yada. I don’t know what the answer is. But what we can do is educate as many pew sitters that we can so that THEY can decide for themselves.
I don’t think we can get rid of wolves.
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Bystander,
A lawsuit isn’t the only retaliation someone might fear for speaking out against a pastor or church. For some of us the main threats are behind-the-scene actions that most people will never notice. Sometimes the church can take action in such a way as to look completely innocent. For instance, there can be connections that affect the person’s livelihood, or they can find themselves “disciplined” out of an entirely different church. I don’t know what the reasons are for the person in question to not come forward, but they can be completely valid.
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Another concern about revealing an identity concerns the retaliation that can come about. One of the issues involved in Sproul’s defrocking concerned what I understand as an authortarian maltreatment of congregants/spiritual abuse. If this person still attends a Reformed church, with the example of our friend Eric as an example, many pastors would retaliate against the whistle blower for naming Sproul. It’s a big problem in these types of churches.
Something similar happened in the church I once attended where they followed these same practices. Area pastors from different churches and denominations met monthly and collected dirt on people who had left one and joined another. My friend from that church was hauled into a discipline session with her pastor at a different church, ten years after leaving the place where we attended together. That new pastor brought in our old assistant pastor to say that she was chronically guilty of the “sin of sedition.” Then, these Protestant ministers read quotes from Pope Pontus something or other as their proof text. ???
On the surface, it seems like it would be a simple matter to just identify yourself, but people are often worried about how these things will affect them. They are worried about being brought under church discipline charges in their churches for the sin of “touching God’s anointed” or failure to submit to the will of the elders. Most of these churches will condemn you and will pronounce harm over you if you do not do what your elders decide. And some people are concerned about how their children will be affected. The parent may be able to stand up to the heat, but they don’t want their children to bear it needlessly.
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BTDT, we were posting at the same time. It is a sticky wicket, is it not?
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Cindy,
You can tell we both know the song and dance. 🙂
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Julie Anne,
Actually, for many of these guys, the attention is seen as righteous persecution. Sadly, for some, it just feeds their frenzy. They see it as proof that they are special to God and are suffering for doing what’s right. It also provides some of these relatively unknown people with a platform that they wouldn’t have otherwise had.
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Yes, JA, I’ve been reading up on the history of your case. I find it shocking that there is ANYONE left at that church. He can’t do it without the support of a congregation, and that’s what I find so shocking. I don’t know what it will take to make those people get it. But I do know that there are others who will get it, and it might take awhile, but shining a light on these aberrant, dark-alley doctrines will bring results. BTDT – I understand the livelihood connections. That’s another reason not to get isolated within your own congregation. Don’t people read their Bibles for themselves? How do people fall into these control systems? When I came to Christ, and joined my congregation, that was when my life really began. Church life for me has been all about growth, fellowship, encouragement and freedom. I want everyone to have that in their congregation.
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“Don’t people read their Bibles for themselves? How do people fall into these control systems?”
Yes, and the reasons vary. I joined a very authoritarian cult at the tender age of 18. I believed I WAS joining a fellowship that was furthering my walk with the Lord. The hyper-control didn’t begin immediately, and I was very uninformed about what was happening when it did.
The best thing we can do is try to inform others to not make the same mistakes we did.
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Yes – and also, I hope that once people see that they are in a cult as opposed to a church body, they will vote with their feet and head for the door. A church body should be a safe place where people deal with each other openly, honestly and with grace and compassion. Had it not been for the support of my church family during the years that my daughter went off the rails into drug abuse, pregnancy, and then losing custody of her child through the courts, I don’t know what I would have done. No one ever told me that it was my fault, because I didn’t raise her right. No one ever told me that I should shun her. Ultimately, she became clean and sober and the grandchild will soon be 11 years old, happily living with her paternal grandparents several states away. I can’t imagine walking through those years alone. And my pastor had walked in those shoes himself, and was a great help to me.
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That sounds like a healthy church, Bystander. I thank God you have such a place.
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What a great story, Bystander, thanks much for sharing it with us. How wonderful your daughter is clean and sober and your beloved grandchild is in a safe and happy home environment. Love happy endings!
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And even happier, considering that the grandchild was critically injured at the age of 2 1/2 months, which is the reason for CPS and the courts getting involved in the first place – but I am saying all this to let everyone know that there are pastors out there who are compassionate shepherds, who take the responsibility of caring for the flock very seriously. My pastor is my friend and brother in Christ.
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Bystander wrote:
“I would ask those of you who have been here awhile to be a little more gracious toward those who are newcomers here. I speak from experience. I am just now getting a grasp of how pervasive these movements are and trying to catch up.
… I felt like I was being peppered with rotten vegetables.”
I remember reading a conversation when some were less than gracious to you. 😦 I can’t remember the topic, but hope I wasn’t one of them.
On the other hand, Eric came here in a most ungracious manner and some returned the “favor”. I was not surprised to learn he’s a church leader and a fan of “Grace To You”.
On the other hand, some newcomers hold views or use words which sound like those of abusers — but they’re not. They’re in or have been in a particular environment where those views and ways of conversing are the norm. I would hope “regulars” would recognize these individuals and show a little extra grace.
Case in Point: the very first comment on this unwieldy thread:
Seth Jan 3
“Yeah pretty shocking and sad. I’ve never heard of wife spanking in the semi patriarchical circles I’ve been in, but part of my home schooling involved Gothard’s materials and I could easily see the theoretical framework for it developed there.”
Notice that he’s been in semi-patriarchal circles and taught Gothard! Strike one and strike two! He may comment in ways which annoy us. But he may be looking for an alternative. Somewhere full of grace– unlike “Grace to You”.
ITSM some commenters may have been overly harsh with him and driven him away.
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@BTDT:
And there are “Fellowships” that might start out OK, but then Entropy sets in and they drift off on a cultic tangent; being completely independent (“Just us and The LOORD”), they have no outside reality check.
Compounded by the fact that a lot of Christianese Cult-Watch groups define Cult(TM) only by aberrant theology, not repeat not abusive control-freak behavior towards their people. A lot of these “Aberrant Christian Groups” (CULTs in all but name and on-paper Theology) got in under the radar that way. While the cult-sniffers were parsing theology letter-by-letter, these Not-a-Cults were abusing their people. And their clean bill of health as “Not a CULT” got used as an additional weapon.
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@CindyK:
A similar dynamic to Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory.
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@EricFehrman:
And when did you stop spanking your wife?
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@Trust4himOnly:
I’ve got a narcissist and possible sociopath in my family. I’ve seen him click the Oh-So-Sorry Remorse and Sincere Repentance on and off like a light switch. CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!
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And who are you to say its abuse? People spank their kids is that abuse? Some say it is some don’t. If a mans injured his wife or severely harmed her physically or mentally then I’d say its abuse but I don’t believe it’s wrong for a man to have the right to discipline his wife physically as long as it doesn’t go too far. He should have the right to do so. Abuse and wrongdoing depends on what the culture believes at the moment. Where is the absolute morality saying its wrong? You say it’s wrong because the current cultural mores say it’s wrong. A man should be responsible for his wife and be allowed to discipline her.
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What is Abuse?
Very few people know what abuse really is, though everyone seems quite ready to give advice to its victims. If you believe that abuse is physical battering, you have some learning to do.
Abuse is fundamentally a mentality. It is a mindset of entitlement. The abuser sees himself* as entitled. He is the center of the world, and he demands that his victim make him the center of her world. His goal is power and control over others. For him, power and control are his natural right, and he feels quite justified in using whatever means are necessary to obtain that power and control. The abuser is not hampered in these efforts by the pangs of a healthy conscience and indeed often lacks a conscience.
While this mentality of power and control often expresses itself in various forms of physical abuse, it just as frequently employs tactics of verbal, emotional, financial, social, sexual and spiritual abuse. Thus, an abuser may never actually lay a hand on his wife and yet be very actively terrorizing her in incredibly damaging ways.
Abuse in any of its forms destroys the victim’s person. Abuse, in the end, is murder.
* Sometimes the genders are reversed
I COPIED THIS FROM ANOTHER BLOG.
THIS IS FOR YOUR INFO MR BLOGGER 99!!!!!
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Oddly enough, Blogger99’s name links to a woman’s blog called a Simple Country Housewife which has favorable posts on women’s rights. Very strange.
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If anyone has witnessed abusive behavior they need to report it to competent authorities. The child abuse hotline for Florida is 1-800-962-2873. R.C. Sproul Jr’s actions might not have landed him in jail but an investigation might signal to his children, if not to him, that his behavior is not okay. Please, if anyone has any first hand experience, don’t hesitate to call the hotline.
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Hi Julie Anne, I seem to keep stumbling on your website as I have been digging around on this very disturbing concept of wife discipline. I have heard of this in places around the world and it turned my stomach, i.e. how religion is so prone to sanctifying evil… ugh
I am so troubled that a ministry I was apart of in college seems to come very close to advocating wife discipline… they have tilted very hierarchical over the years and talk about the husband as the wife’s “discipler” and blur this together with the husband’s job disciplining children, i.e. the two words are from the same root. Even the concept of the husband presuming to be his wife’s “discipler” is offensive…
Anyway, I guess I am curious if you see this as a growing trend in American evangelicalism or is it just a really extremist element. And what about elsewhere around the world? Please send me any thoughts or articles you have written.
Thanks so much, emily
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This is really late here, but I will post this anyway. Just to give you the scoop that I got firsthand concerning the Sproul Jr. and other men who were in the RPCGA when Sproul, Jr. was defrocked. The others, including James McDonald, and the other ministers in the now CPC denomination were stripped of their credentials by the RPCGA. Then Doug Wilson offered to allow them to all come over to CREC. None of them would. If they had, the RPCGA would not have stripped them of their credentials. But in rebellion, these guys went off and out on their own, something the RPCGA does not permit their ministers to do. Hence, the boot in the behind. Then these 10 or 12 men, began a new denomination called the Covenant Presbyterian Church. I called RPCGA when I was having trouble in one of these CPC churches and was told first hand exactly what had happened. I had read it on line and decided to contact them and ask if those documents were all true, concerning Sproul Jr.’s defrocking and the other men’s credentials being stripped by RPCGA. I was also told that the CPC is not accepted as a true denomination as it is founded by men who were basically kicked out. I think that makes them all rebels in the Church’s eyes. I was told that Sproul, Jr., was making people bow to him before they could take communion and that he was making it so that the people did not have access to the presbytery, so if they had problems within one of the local churches, they could get help. Sproul, Jr., did not give them that access, which was part of the agreement with the RPCGA. I also read the documents written by a family that was being spiritually abused in Sproul Jr’s. RPCGA Church, that apparently were not allowed to contact the presbytery and RPCGA found out about that too. Sproul, Jr., and the rest of those men were also giving paedo-communion, which is absolutely against the RPCGA’s standards. That means infant communion, for all you who don’t know. I believe all of those CPCs do that. Lots of other abusive stuff too within the CPC, but too much to discuss here. Sproul, Jr., sort of went back under his dad’s arm for awhile right after the defrocking, but I see he is now currently listed as pastoring and co-pastoring a couple of the CPCs. I have first hand info on one case of spousal abuse where Sproul, Jr was involved and told the abuser that if the wifey got out of line one more time, to just let him know and she would be excommunicated.
I have much more info on the abuses done by these CPCs. Very ugly and scary.
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I am 100% against “wife spanking” in any form. That being said, I seriously question the truthfulness of the comments about RC Sproul copied here from Jen’s Gems by “Lindt” and “Ghirard”.
I started visiting SPPC in 1998, and later became a member for over a decade, knew the Sprouls very well, and spent a lot of time in their house and with their kids, and have seen them with their “hair down”. In all that time I never heard any such teaching about spanking wives, nor witnessed any evidence of anyone in that church doing such a thing. Tempers – yes seen that a few times, as in anyone. But never physical.
I used to disagree with RC all the time, in front of other guests at his house, and this never created any problem. I have suspicions that the wife-spanking account above is pure fiction. But, perhaps this account is from the 1990’s and Sproul had changed before I met them.
I know that Sproul has changed since then, because I witnessed that change over the course of 14 years. Five things in particular have deeply changed him. First, he had a daughter, Shannon with the mind of a 4 year old, whom he dearly loved. Then he got kidney stones, that recur frequently. Then his wife got cancer. Then the church split and he got defrocked. Then he got cancer. Then his wife got cancer again, and died. Leaving him as a single father to their five natural children and two adopted black boys. Then his disabled daughter died.
I know few people who have suffered so much physically and emotionally and continuously, individually or as a family. And the result of that pain is visible in him, who had previously been a proud young man, because it produced humility – the real kind that comes from long-suffering.
I cannot speak to the early part of his marriage, but the in last decade of his marriage to Denise they loved each other very dearly. He stood by her in her travails, and she stuck by him through his. There is no question in my mind that they were very much in love those final two years of her life.
There are many things that you could criticize or slander RC Jr for, but his love of Denise was surely one of the five great loves that will go down in history.
************************************************************
There is something else you should understand about Sproul. Shortly after he started Saint Peter church and was making the basement tapes, a guy named Harry Seabrook asked to join the church. Harry was a big fan of RC. But Harry had just started his own website called “Little Geneva” which heavily promoted “Kinism” – a philosophy that blended racism with Christian Reconstruction. (RC was never a Reconstructionist and would debate them.) When RC found out about Harry’s promotion of Kinism he said, no you cannot join this church, because we would have to discipline you for promoting false doctrine. And he published an open letter in their magazine denouncing Kinism and Harry Seabrook. By rejecting Harry in this way RC earned himself a bitter enemy.
A few years later Peter Kershaw (aka Frank Vance, aka T.W. Eston ) brought his family to Sproul’s church, and after a year or so decided to divorce his wife, which brought on the threat of church discipline. Kershaw counterattacked by bringing charges to the RPCGA Presbytery – which resulted in all the elders in the church getting defrocked – though there was no trial or opportunity for them to answer the charges.
Kershaw left Sproul’s church and started ministrywatchman.org with Jen Epstein. She was attacked Doug Phillips, while Kershaw was mainly interested in attacking the Sprouls. Kershaw and Epstein also teamed up with Harry Seakbrook and another kinist guy from Tennessee. They created multiple fake websites like “Drinking With RC Sproul Jr”, and created sock puppets to comment on blogs all over the internet. When Matt Chancey exposed the Kinist side of Ministry Watchman it went quiet for a while until Doug Phillip’s most recent disaster.
My suspicion is that this wife-spanking story and “corroboration” are both sock puppets of the Ministry Watchman crew. But who knows, maybe he really did believe that once. If he really did, I would be very sorry to hear it.
All that being said, I find it interesting that authors on this site, like Cindy Kunsman criticize alleged racism in the Patriarchy movement, while getting a lot of her source material from Jen Epstein and the Ministry Watchman site – who were either Kinists or comfortable collaborating with known Kinists to attack the patriarchy guys. (Pot calls kettle the N-word?)
While much of the critique here is legit, I fear you have been overly diligent in erecting and beating up strawmen, as I’ve mentioned before. You need better quality sources than a pair of pseudonyms to publish this serious of an accusation against someone. Don’t you think?
There are plenty of real things to critique these guys for without the need to make up tabloid fiction and discredit yourself.
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Ken, Thank you for your perspective on the whole Sproul, Jr. situation. As far as the sock puppet situation to fabricate the wife spanking story, that is something that I thought about before posting my article. But it didn’t line up for me because I had heard of the wife-spanking situation long before Phillip’s downfall from someone who contacted me to tell me his story in connection with Sproul. I was able to corroborate this person is who he said he was.
As I said in the article, I cannot prove he spanked his wife or endorsed it, but I’ve seen too many references of it to pass up and my purpose was to warn people that this kind of teaching is something that could easily be manipulated/twisted in Patriarchal circles.
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“Kershaw counterattacked by bringing charges to the RPCGA Presbytery – which resulted in all the elders in the church getting defrocked – though there was no trial or opportunity for them to answer the charges.”
This is not why RC was defrocked and the rest of the men stripped of their credentials. Not sure where you got your info, but this is not what is in the documentation concerning the defrocking and stripping of credentials.
Also, there is definite spiritual abuse within the system that RC is now involved in.
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“This is not why RC was defrocked and the rest of the men stripped of their credentials.”
I was summarizing the human motivations behind the case, not the official reasons stated in the case.
I am very closely acquainted with the details of the defrocking, and later ended up fighting another case against SPPC over a very similar treatment of another family who opted to leave the church some years later. So, I’m not covering for them.
In situations like the 2006 defrocking of St Peter’s elders, there are always human reasons behind the “official” reasons.
The political reason driving Dr. Talbot was that they believed and taught, but did not outright practice paedocommunion. RC had recruited about half a dozen other churches into the the RPCGA most of which were sympathetic to paedocommunion, or held the same view as RC. Peter Kershaw went to Ken Talbot and convinced him that RC was plotting to take over his little denomination and allow paedocommunion.
The issue with the Austin Family had been resolved several months before they were defrocked, and given that they had apologized and released them, it certainly did not warrant defrocking. Paedocommunion was the burr under Ken Talbot’s saddle.
Frankly, the defrocking was done without due process, and threw in many reckless accusations on top of the issue that was at the heart – paedocommunion. St. Peter’s elders had asked for an opportunity to defend themselves before the Presbytery, but Talbot ignored that and defrocked them without properly calling a Presbytery meeting, or allowing them to make a plea concerning the charges. (He claimed a supermajority, but none of the other churches were invited or even knew about it until afterwards.) Talbot then started going after the other churches associated with RC, with the intent of purging paedocommunion sympathizers from his denomination. That is why they left en masse, and a number of them formed the CPC.
My point in bringing these things up, is that I find a kind of irrational hatred of RC and Doug Phillips amongst the community following this site. You have kinists like Harry Seabrook and Peter Kershaw teaming up with Jen Epstein and Cynthia EDITED Kuhnsman to stone these people to death, and accuse them of racism, incest, wife-spanking and many other unpleasant things.
If your main focus is spiritual abuse then focus on that and limit your attacks to that. By throwing all the mud you can possibly find, no matter how flimsy the evidence, you prove yourselves to be witch hunters rather than objective reporters of abuses in the so-call patriarchy movement.
Another problem with this general mode of attack is that most of the sins and abuses you’ve dug up in Patriarchy churches can also be found in all the other churches. Hypocrisy seems to be basic to human nature, and so we find it in varying degrees from Bill Clinton down to the most humble church member.
As I’ve commented before in your other articles, I would find it much more helpful if someone could analyze and define what Patriarchy is based on the writings and teachings of those you label as patriarchalists. Break it down into its elements, so that it can by analyzed and discussed.
Is the belief that the father is head of the family the defining belief of Patriarchy? Is that wrong? I suspect that a majority of Americans of all walks and religions believe that is right and normal.
Or, is “Patriarchy” with a capital “P” a particular set of more detailed beliefs that crosses the line to being malignant?
If so, please define the belief set that you are against. Break it down for us, so we can evaluate you and your writings, as well as Patriarchy itself.
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I guess the other thing that I’ve been trying to put my finger on is that the failures of leaders of a movement do not necessarily invalidate the movement itself.
For example, in Britain it has come to light that a minority of politicians of all persuasions have united in forming a deplorable pedophile ring that has run for decades if not centuries. We can find cases of sexual abuse and spiritual abuse in all varieties of church, regardless of whether they are pro-patriarchy or anti-patriarchy.
Do the failures of leadership invalidate the teachings and beliefs of that group of people? Or do the teachings and beliefs of that group indict the leader who fails to do what he preaches?
I find it quite interesting that unlike the Sovereign Grace Ministries which closed ranks and defended their supreme leader when caught in similar misbehavior, VF followers dropped Doug Phillips like a stone when his hypocrisy came to light, and BCA has pursued church discipline to the point that he has fled to another church.
Once everyone compared notes and realized how he was shining them on, they called him on the carpet and tossed him out the door. That says something positive about BCA and VF’s support base.
I have problems with many of the teachings of Bill Gothard. His being caught in sexual abuse of a troubled girl does not surprise me because I had seen some things that made me suspect that for a long time. However, his teachings stand or fall on their own merit, not because he was caught abusing young girls. His abuse was a violation of his teachings. With one possible exception – his chain of authority doctrine.
That is why I would like to see the teachings of various Patriarchal leaders analyzed here. For example, Gothard’s chain of authority was not ever taught by RC Sproul Jr, and I don’t think even Doug Phillips taught the idea of an infallible chain of command. Those two taught the idea of separation and limitation of powers in “spheres” of authority, as well as the idea that the individual must disobey unlawful orders from any authority. This is why VF followers tossed Phillips out. They were not trained as mindless followers in the way that Gothard taught his people to be.
I request that you break down capital P Patriarchy in terms of the elements it is made of, and analyze individual proponents of Patriarchy in terms of which elements they promote.
I am against spiritual abuse, but I believe some of the tenets of patriarchy, along with at least 4 billion people on this planet. I’m trying to figure out exactly what it is that you are against. Your broad brush attack on Patriarchy makes it hard to figure that out.
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Ken, I cannot speak for Julie Anne but I am wondering about your statement, “I believe some of the tenets of patriarchy, along with at least 4 billion people on this planet.”
Just WHICH tenets of patriarchy are you referring to, and where do you get the figure of 4 billion? I am curious.
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FYI, I took up the Google Calvinism “wife spanking” challenge, and found zero Calvinists who advocate wife spanking – at least on the Internet. I did fine a Baptist and a Methodist advocating “DD”, but which on closer examination seems to be some kind of wife-initiated fetish thing.
If John Calvin had advocated wife-spanking in his lengthy works, then I suppose one could rightly say that wife-spanking is a “Calvinist” thing. But so far I’ve seen no evidence at all that John Calvin taught this, or that it has been advocated as part of the body of doctrine called “Calvinism” ever.
Feel free to post evidence.
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Carmen, I live in a developing country that widely practices polygamy. You would be shocked to your bones what is considered normal here. The four billion I refer to is primarily Indian, Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, and African.
I believe in limited paternal leadership of the family unit, like most people in most places at most times in the past four millennia. I also believe in limited corporal punishment of children, like most people in most places in the past four millennia.
I don’t believe in infallible authority, wife-spanking, authoritarianism, and probably a few more weird things being done in some circles that I cannot think of because they have not occurred to me. I find courtship/betrothal culture interesting and problematic but not all bad. However, that’s more from being influenced by the Indian culture of arranged marriage. I live in a country where multiple cultures and major religions have a “bride price” and dowry as part of their marriage customs. Each does it a bit differently.
Having spent a couple of decades in the American homeschooling circles, and seen some abuses there, I have seen things on this continent that would curl your toes. In other words the worst abuses hiding in the American homeschooling movement don’t hold a candle to some of the hideous abuses done here as part of tribal family culture. And even those pale in comparison to what is done by people who have seen their tribal culture dissolved and have no restraining influence but the state. I refer to beading, female genital mutilation, etc. The newer offense is gang rape.
The difference in scale doesn’t justify any abuses in America, but I’m pointing out that in the grand scheme of things American patriarchy is very mild compared developing world practices.
By the way, I think Ramaiya Vastavaiya was the best movie ever. It does have themes of arranged marriage versus dating:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramaiya_Vastavaiya
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Ken,
Your arguments are easy enough to refute, but before I do so, I have some questions for you. Please be honest. Do you lord it over your wife? Have you ever touched her in anger? Have you ever forced yourself on her sexually? Have you ever threatened her? Do you control the family’s finances? Do you make her ask for money? Do you give her an allowance? Have you ever put your wife down in front of other people? Do you define the gender roles in your family?
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Ken said:
Ok, my dander is up big-time on this comment. What is with the Cindy Kunsman slam? Where has she identified herself as a psychologist? And please tell me where has she teamed up with Peter Kershaw and Jen Epstein? This above quote makes me angry to see it on my blog. If you can’t provide proof of that quote and also her teaming up with Epstein/Kershaw, I will remove the comment entirely.
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Ken, go take a look at Cindy Kunsman’s site. I’m certain she has a lot of information on patriarchy broken down. Before I was in school full-time, I may have taken your challenge on. Not anymore. When I discuss patriarchy in my articles, I think I usually make it clear where the problem is.
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Do you really think that someone promoting wife-spanking would post about it on the internet?
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I think if you did some Google searches you would find this information. Ie, Recovering Grace site has done extensive breakdown of Gothard’s mess. You will find various people dissecting Doug Phillips’ works and have been doing so, i.e., Pastor Shawn Mathis has focused on the family-integrated church push given by Phillips and Scott Brown. Cindy Kunsman has covered: full quiver, courtship, stay-at-home daughters, patriarchy, her site is like an encyclopedia.
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I have never claimed to be a psychologist. NEVER. I certified in hypnotherapy to get nursing continuing education but never practiced it because I didn’t find it to be ethical. I am a nurse who has studied PTSD and the effectiveness of therapy for PTSD to encourage people who are afraid of psychology to get effective help. PTSD has a large physical component, as do some other mental health conditions, and many Christians are taught that PTSD is entirely a spiritual problem or a matter of sin. Based on empirical clinical data, I argue that it is not a matter of sin but has a significant physical component. It is a healthy response to a perceived or actual trauma, and trauma is in the eye of the beholder. “Get over it” brings condemnation on those who need the healing of justice and are denied it.
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I’m teamed up with Jen? I thought that my position on Kershaw/Friday/Vance/Eston was well established. As is my position on the repugnant belief system of kinism.
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2008/01/near-end-of-may-07-i-was-person-who.html
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Yup, Cindy, I don’t know what he’s read, but I’ve been following you for years and you’ve never wavered from your stance against kinism and position on those :::ahem characters.
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Perhaps my addressing of the wicked problems in Theonomy were missed in the 400+ comments under the following thread. Racism and stoning were chief among my criticisms, and I cut Martin Selbrede very little slack there. I know nothing about the advocating of domestic discipline of wives outside of some IFB circles and from the old CCC Forum before and right after it was sold to Bill Mouser. Those archives are gone.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/11/21/chalcedon-foundation-privately-donated-funds-to-joe-taylor-to-help-his-legal-defense-against-doug-phillips/
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Ken isn’t answering the questions I asked him about this time yesterday. Hmmm. . .
Come on Ken. Do you have something to hide? Do you have a vested interest in the abusive, misogynistic, false doctrines and practices you are defending?
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Ken,
I have another question for you. What search terms were you using when you found this site? Was the word spanking one of them? If so, why? Why would you be searching the internet for information on spanking? Not accusing you of anything. Just curious.
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This thread is so appalling. Shameful and arrogant blog. Christ is not honored here.
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This stuff is sick. I wish I’d never heard of the cowpat of Kinism, Biblical Patriarchy, or Quiverfull.
As for this man beating his wife, I think that a man should treasure her rather than beat her, don’t you?
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