The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking

*     *     *

As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing:  domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.

*     *     *

Warning:  this is a heavy and disturbing article.

As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations.  For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.

I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.

* *

But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?

* *

One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking.  The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal.  If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical.  Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical.  Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?

**

medium_4896701562

**

As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc.  What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.

One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.

I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.

Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses.  Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew.  This is going on elsewhere.

We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.

Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.

I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.

******************************************

Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm

“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.

I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?

Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm

I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.

Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.

 

Ghirard Says:
December 30, 2013 at 11:08 am

Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.

Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced.   We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:

After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.

Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:

Yes, I did at least try and speak with him. Not that night. It was all too shocking at the time. But later after I’d had some time to process. I didn’t get very far. He’s hypersensitive to anything that he thinks is criticism. There was always the threat of church discipline if you ever got out of line. Just asking the wrong sort of question would earn you his ire. He operates a lot like Doug Phillips, if I understand your descriptions of Phillips correctly. You don’t question the cult leader. Not unless you want big trouble.

It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.

JPGR Says:
December 28, 2013 at 8:21 am

I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.

My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?

Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….

******************************************

I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement.  Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening.  So what is a godly response to ungodliness?

Exposure!

Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.

Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.

Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?

Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?

She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.

These women need our prayers and our help.  We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty.  We have voices and must speak up for them.

photo credit: bark via photopin cc

Updated note:  Slight modification of title and removed key words  See note in comments.

722 comments on “The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking

  1. Ken isn’t answering the questions I asked him about this time yesterday. Hmmm. . .
    Come on Ken. Do you have something to hide? Do you have a vested interest in the abusive, misogynistic, false doctrines and practices you are defending?

    Like

  2. Ken,

    I have another question for you. What search terms were you using when you found this site? Was the word spanking one of them? If so, why? Why would you be searching the internet for information on spanking? Not accusing you of anything. Just curious.

    Like

  3. Pingback: PART XXI-B: Christian Reconstruction, ATI, Abuse & Submission – Abuse of Women | The Pink Flamingo

  4. This stuff is sick. I wish I’d never heard of the cowpat of Kinism, Biblical Patriarchy, or Quiverfull.

    As for this man beating his wife, I think that a man should treasure her rather than beat her, don’t you?

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Pingback: Christian Domestic Discipline (Wife Spanking): A Personal Story, and a Closer Look at Patterns Connected with this Abusive Practice | Spiritual Sounding Board

  6. Pingback: Most Clicked Links in 2014 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  7. I came across this blog quite my accident. I read everything that comes past me. Knowledge of any kind enriches the mind.

    I have been married twice and had several girls who lived with me over my short, wicked life. Both my wives divorced me for what I later understood was lack of discipline. Every time they would start a fuss with me out of the blue for no apparent reason I wrote it off as just typical twisted female thinking and got through it like most men.

    In both marriages this illogical behavior by my wives escalated throgh the years with both of them blaming me for their lack of happiness in life. Let’s understand this before we continue. No one can MAKE you happy.

    I am on my way to my third marriage now and the woman I live with started the same identical pattern. Fuss for no logical reason. Express dissatisfaction in my treatment of her in spite of the fact that I am one of the most easy going, loving men I know. Then one day I thought of something I had read years ago and dismissed. “Women are like children.” I have to admit most men I have met seem to innately understand this.

    On that realization I began to think of my previous two marriages and the how the pattern of illogical argument from my wives exactly matched that of a child. So, one day I snached my current wife to be up, threw her across my knee and gave her a spanking to remember. I told her exactly why she was getting the spanking and that should she repeat such behavior to expect the same again.

    After she had finished crying she came to me and promised to never repeat the behavior and since that day we have the loving relationship I had always wanted from my previous two marriages.

    It occurs to me that women, like children, expect a man to be in control. Women, like children, use these little illogical, emotion based, arguments to test if their man is deserving of their love, and most importantly – respect.

    My father was a very wise man. When my second wife brought over the divorce papers for me to sign I was about to refuse. He looked at me and said “Son, you can’t get her back. She has lost respect for you.” Notice he said “respect” not love. Looking back I now know a simple spanking or two would have saved both my marriages.

    Jack

    Like

  8. Assuming you are not a troll, Jack, I will respond to you. No, women are not childlike, spanking your wife is abuse and is against the law, and no, spanking wouldn’t have saved your first two marriages. There are lots of happy, violence-free marriages where the two people respect each other. The common denominator in your three dysfunctional marriages is you.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. Wow, Jack! So you’re saying that three women, independently said basically the same things about you, and yet you see the problem as being THEIRS? What does it take to overcome your self-absorbed narcissism? Look in the mirror, you’ll see the cause of your problem.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Pingback: The Duggars’ beliefs help explain their behavior from Hey Todd A!

  11. A simple spanking or two would’ve landed you in the grave, you misogynistic ***hole. You would’ve turned your back on me and I would have bashed your brains in with the heaviest thing I could find.

    Like

  12. Pingback: By their fruits, you will recognize them | Rina Marie

  13. Interesting. I had no idea of this stuff going on. If my spouse hit me or I my spouse there would be a divorce. Children are never hit. I have known of blanket training and it is child abuse…. Period!

    Talk about perverting the Gospel of Jesus.
    Wife spanking, dominion, blanket training, what ever else that is abusive, is all man made doctrine.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Abusive pastor ‘brainwashed naked parishioners in spanking sessions to exorcise their demons’

    Pastor ran bottom-spanking cult by brainwashing women to think he was exorcising demons, court told

    By Croydon Advertiser

    Howard Curtis, 72, is accused of running a “cult” when he was pastor and leader of the “religion-based-organisation” Coulsdon Christian Fellowship, in Chipstead Valley Road, where he would allegedly spank women and children “to bring them closer to God”.

    …. According to Ms Osborne, Curtis’ teachings, under the guise of a mantra called ‘Christian Domestic Discipline’ were “unorthodox” and the church under his leadership was “much more like a cult”.

    Like

  15. Abusive pastor ‘brainwashed naked parishioners in spanking sessions to exorcise their demons’

    Pastor ran bottom-spanking cult by brainwashing women to think he was exorcising demons, court told

    Now there’s a guy who figured out a way to indulge his kink (“Papa Spank!”) and Stay RESPECTABLE. 100 years after Upper-Class Victorians managed to do the same.

    Nice Racket.

    Like

  16. To find out about this stuff is sickening. Sounds like the same type of stuff women in some countries suffer. R.C, Sproul is sick and perverted. His poor wife. Why didn’t her family step in and rescue her and get her deprogrammed. Why didn’t they get someone to take that jerk out into the woods and give him a “spanking”.

    Like

  17. It has been about a year since I’ve posted on this thread, during which time I’ve been back to Southwest Virginia and asked a couple of friends who were at Saint Peter in the late 1990’s. They confirm that RC Jr never taught men in the church to spank their wives. Whoever your two pseudonym sources are, you and they are guilty of libel.

    Cynthia Kuhnsman put on all kinds of airs as a pseudo-psychologist, particularly in coining the the term “Botkin Syndrome”, which is also libelous. Decent people do not make such baseless accusations against real living people, certainly not in writing.

    Julie Anne, this article is just slimy.

    Like

  18. Now, Ken – his supporters would NEVER try to protect him, now would they??
    . . or, put another way, would men who advocated adult spanking ever LIE??

    Like

  19. Being thrown out of these type of churches is a good thing. Not something to be feared. They can no longer burn you at the stake. Abuse of women in and out of churches is wide spread. I am talking about emotional as well as physical. We are second class in so many ways. It has always been that way. Thank goodness the churches (Catholic, Calvin followers etc.) do not have the power they used to or tied in with the government (state church) or it would be like it used to be and some of us would be hiding in the woods with our families and pets. I am not sure of where we are in God’s timing but I thank him we were born now, not then and here in the USA. There is a false spirit so strong (false religious) in the churches now. It’s not their wonderful words but their actions that give them away and the false spirit they are following. Yes, people follow like sheep. When you are confused and lose your ability to think or lose your God given common sense, you are in trouble. When your actions no longer exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, re-examine yourself.

    Like

  20. Carmen – clearly you will accept nothing but a guilty verdict, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. These are my friends, they were there since SPPC was founded. I joined when that church was only four years old, and their testimony confirms my own experience that no such thing was ever taught or practiced there. Julie Ann just loves throwing slime around. I hope that she loses her next libel lawsuit.

    Like

  21. Carmen – given that the allegation is that he taught this at MEN’S meetings, men would be the only ones who were witnesses to it. The answer is that it was never taught at men’s meetings, or any other venue. I have good friends who are women married to those men and others. They have never been spanked. This story is pure hocum.

    Like

  22. “This story is pure hokum.” In your opinion, Ken. In your self-righteous opinion.

    The problem you have, on this thread, is that Julie Anne’s and Cindy Kuhnsman’s opinion has much greater credibility. Just sayin’. . .

    Like

  23. right on Shelley Seriously, how are people so gullible That is the scary part Losing one’s brains like this is frightening Jim Jones all over Frightening

    Like

  24. You’re right, Ken. The article is slimy. The idea that a man thinks he gets to discipline his wife is one of the slimiest things I can imagine. The search terms “wife spanking” and “Christian domestic discipline” are the most common searches that bring people to my blog. It is going on. It is being taught. Women are being harmed. I have another personal testimony from a wife that I will be posting soon.

    Patriarchy here in the US and around the world treats women as less-thans, as objects for men to use and abuse. Women lose their identities, their personhood. That is indeed slimy.

    As far as RC Sproul, Jr. goes – you are mistaken, there were 2 men I quoted in the article and I spoke with a pastor who shared his personal experience, so that’s 3 individuals. I have the pastor’s name, phone number, and e-mail address that I spoke with. This pastor is legit. During our conversation, I was searching online and I found his church online, sermons online, pictures of him, etc. I believe these three individuals because they all share the same details.

    Happy Thanksgiving!

    PS – I think you mean defamation, not libel. But it won’t work anyway because I believe what I am saying to be true. Someone would have to prove that I am lying intentionally. They can’t because I am not 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

  25. Pingback: Spiritual Sounding Board’s Top 10 Blog posts of 2015 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  26. REACTION

    Christian Domestic Discipline, basically traditional wife spanking with an early 21st century label, is largely a reaction to perceived excesses of 20th century feminism.

    Feminism is a reaction to perceived excesses of 19th century Victorian patriarchy.

    BATTLE OF THE SEXES

    At its core, domestic abuse versus domestic discipline is a battle of the sexes.

    Conservative men have tradition on their side.

    Liberal women have laws on their side.

    LIKELY OUTCOME

    In the end, conservative men will probably win because tradition tends to outlast law prohibiting it.

    Like

  27. While one could make the argument that the Pharisees represented an anomaly in Jewish religions thought, a more likely candidate for comparison might be the Sadducees.

    A more relevant example for wife spanking would be the reset in the status of women accompanying collapse of the former Soviet Union. A female Russian journalist working in the United States at the time of the Soviet Union’s disintegration observed the status of women in the United States was equally as precarious as that of their Soviet counterparts.

    It is simply somewhere between difficult and impossible to get rid of practices that have survived over time. One reason is that laws, and the regimes that pass them, tend to come and go. Meanwhile, underneath the chaos, people tend to do what they’ve always done.

    This seems particularly true when governments try to eradicate longstanding practices with laws. Examples include the early 20th century Prohibition of alcohol in the United States and the late 20th century and early 21st century war on drugs.

    Like

  28. While one could make the argument that the Pharisees represented an anomaly in Jewish religions thought, a more likely candidate for comparison might be the Sadducees.

    Jesus spoke in Mark 7 to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. He wasn’t impressed with their traditions.

    Like

  29. While true, the issue under discussion was whether the what people do over time, such as wife spanking, tend to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

    This, by the way is also why, along with organized crime, religion in Russia was able to survive three quarter of a century under the authoritative Bolshevik domination.

    Like

  30. While true, the issue under discussion was whether the what people do over time, such as wife spanking, tend to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

    And why would people who are supposedly reborn of the spirit revert back to such an unChristian practice such as wife spanking? You say that “conservative men have tradition on their side.” I say those “conservative” men are not following Christ.

    Like

  31. Jack is a loser. Wife spanking is perverted. Hearing about it is sickening and is almost as bad as porn. Women who equate spanking as feeling cared for and belonging are emotional off and ill.

    Like

  32. “You say that ‘conservative men have tradition on their side.’ I say those ‘conservative’ men are not following Christ.”

    This one of those apples and oranges comparisons. Conservatives are not necessarily Christian. Likewise, not all Christians are conservative.

    Neither is “wife spanking” specifically condoned nor forbidden by the Bible. It is one of those issues on which the Bible is silent.

    Several accepted practices within Christianity have pagan origins. Given the harsh winters in Palestine, Jesus probably wasn’t born on December 25th. Nor is it likely that his birth coincided with with winter solstice. So called Christmas trees can be traced back to Celtic celebrations.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. “Jack is a loser.”

    Perhaps. He’s admitted to two failed marriages.

    Yet, what Jack offered is known in some Christian circles as testimony. He is, in effect, saying, this is what not spanking my first two wives cost me, and this is what spanking my third wife did for me.

    At the same time, the statistical record is clear. The decline of marriages in the United States, coupled with a sharp increases in divorces, coincided with spanking i general, and wife spanking in particular, becoming less acceptable, even criminal.

    Was their a direct cause and effect? Probably not. There seldom is a single causality in these things. Yet, at the same time, it is hard to totally rule it out as a potentially contributing factor.

    More clear is that, for all their faults, male dominated households of 60 years ago were far more stable than is the case these days. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!

    Like

  34. Withheld,
    Not sure what your point is, but I wonder if you’d been able to speak with the women in those ‘male-dominated’ households, what THEIR point of view might have been? I’m also wondering if your comments here are meant to imply that you spank your wife? It certainly seems as it you aren’t particularly bothered by it.

    Your attitude is vile.

    Like

  35. Isn’t it just remarkable that an asshat like Withheld can figure how to decrease the number of divorces?? They walk among us. . . 😦

    Like

  36. Withheld,

    What you are defending is a husband using physical force to control his wife. This is illegal and unscriptural. You cannot say that male-dominated households were more stable simply by looking at divorce rates. It would make logical sense that the divorce rates were down, women feared for their lives and didn’t dare ask for divorce as they should have. Also, there was not adequate safe places for women to go in male-dominated society. You’ve had enough to say here. You may not defend wife spanking as a method to control a wife any more here. It is abuse, plain and simple.

    Liked by 3 people

  37. There might have been less divorces in the past but to equate it with male dominated marriages is off. There were no options then. They weren’t necessarily happy marriages. Divorces are easier to get now. I just can’t understand someone not seeing how wrong this spanking thing is. I know there are a lot of damaged women out there that might equate this with caring but there is no excuse for a man to do this or rationalize it. It’s sick and does not belong in the church of Christ. It’s unclean. Jack is a dope but unfortunately I think some of the others that do this are just wicked and vile and have an unclean spirit. ajc Wouldn’t it just be nicer to have a healthy relationship.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Wow just wow.

    “More clear is that, for all their faults, male dominated households of 60 years ago were far more stable than is the case these days. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!”.

    Exhibit A: my parents.

    Unbelievers. Married for twenty years from mid seventies. Dad physically and emotionally abused my Mother. She was essentially a door mat. She was given money for food and little else. My Dad spent hundreds per week on alcohol at the local pub. I had my first ‘store bought outfit’ when I was 14. I grew up in one of the most expensive suburbs in Australia yet we lived like paupers because my Dad would not give my Mother money.

    She never knew his income.
    She had to ask for money.

    I grew up walking on eggshells around him. As a result I am highly strung and jump at loud noises. I get physically hot and go red in the face when in large crowds.

    This wonderful “male dominant” household ended in sweet divorce when I was 14.

    When my grandmother died and my mother grew wealthy overnight.

    She couldn’t leave him fast enough and I would have done the exact same!

    I did not marry my Father.

    I married a non Alpha male. A gentle man who keeps his hands to himself.

    I cannot imagine what it would be like to be married to an ‘asshat’ Christian male who wants to ‘dominate’ me. Yuk

    Liked by 3 people

  39. Right on. There were less divorces because there were no options. No where to go. Glad you told your story. Can anyone really be stupid or unclean enough to buy into that spanking thing. I am glad you married someone nice. ajc

    Like

  40. Withheld – Three quarters of adults were married – How many of those marriages were bad? From what I have seen. there is a good chance a lot of them were unhappy but the women were stuck. No jobs and children to care for. No where to go. No other role. Lifewithporpoise – Your husband have a much older single brother?????? Why have so many people that say they are Christians gotten involved in things that are so unscriptural and perverted. So off. I think it is because they are listening to demons or their flesh. God save us from these people. ajc

    Liked by 1 person

  41. Right on Marsha What planet did Jack come from? What happened to him to make him this way and seriously, should we be praying for him. I feel a little bad trashing him but the spanking thing is so off. ajc I am serious about the praying for him thing.

    Liked by 1 person

  42. ajc, haha he actually has a bunch of single gorgeous cousins haha

    Noteworthy: my husbands’ dad is a gentleman as was his father. I’m sensing a trend.

    Servant leadership, not tyrannical ruling.

    If my husband ever tried to paddle my bum I would put laxatives in his soup haha!

    Like

  43. As previously stated, my point is that what what people have done over time tends to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

    Like

  44. “…Withheld can[not] figure how to decrease the number of divorces….”

    I don’t have to. Couples have started cohabiting instead of marrying. As a result, the divorce rate is down.

    Like

  45. “…you are defending is a husband using physical force to control his wife….”

    Actually, I did nothing of the sort. Instead, I pointed out that long standing practices tend to outlast efforts to eradicate them.

    Really, are you so sufficiently naive to believe women are happier today than they were in previous generations? If so, might I suggest that you peruse both current and past results from the United States General Social Survey.

    Like

  46. “Three quarters of adults were married – How many of those marriages were bad?”

    While women in previous generations may have been “stuck” in “bad” marriages, research suggests that having more options made available to them has not necessarily made women happier.

    Like

  47. “While women in previous generations may have been “stuck” in “bad” marriages, research suggests that having more options made available to them has not necessarily made women happier”.

    why would having more options make women happier?

    What is lovely about divorce?

    Nothing. It’s terrible and the only good which could come from it is less abuse for a victim using it as a way out.

    My Mum’s divorce was messy. I was used as a pawn to extract more money from my Dad. It was horrible and it did not make my Mum ‘happy’.

    It made her SAFE. It made her FREE! Free from abuse.

    My happiness in my ‘modern marriage’ does not come from having ‘options’, if things go South.

    My happiness (in general) comes from knowing the Creator of the Univerrrrse.

    “Happiness is the Lord”.

    Love Sunday School songs.

    Haha detour there.

    Liked by 1 person

  48. I am going to bow out after this comment. When I first found this site, and I do not know or remember how I did, reading it made me feel kind of sick. Because of what it was discussing and because it was one more crazy thing that “religious” people bought into. My question is, where is discernment? Why are these people so deceived as to think this is a good practice. The same reason John Calvin burned people in the past if they did not agree with him? What is it from. Man’s evil heart? Doctrines of demons that are spoken of in the new testament? Same spirits that lead all pagan religions? Why is there such a mix? Some of my most confusing and unattractive experiences have been from pastors and church people. We live in the real world. King David needed God’s help in the real world to make it. Marriage does not necessarily make a person happy. Divorce does not necessarily make a person unhappy. But bottom line, this unclean spanking thing comes from deception or the flesh or both. It is unclean. When you start following these thoughts or man made rules, you are not following the spirit and there is a difference. Porpoise, your mom did not have to use you as a pawn to extract more money. She could have done that for many reasons. No point speculating. But we don’t live in la la land. We live in the real world with a real God, whose real help we need to make it. Some women want a decent marriage. We have an adversary who really dislikes us or wants to screw us up for his own reasons. There is no point going into all this stuff about marriage and divorce, because bottom line is – that practice is wrong, unscriptural and unclean. Most or all religion is garbage. You need to know Christ personally and follow the new way. I remember thinking and asking (no one seemed impressed) why Mrs. Sproul Jr. didn’t confide in or get help from her family? Did she want to protect her marriage for her own personal reasons? Did she buy the goods that they were living the Christian way? Who knows? If you don’t get how much the adversary wants to degrade and hurt women, then just count how many topless bars there are in your town. I don’t mean the women who work there, I mean the women whose husbands or boyfriends stop in there after work. And the magazines etc. We must see this stuff as God sees it. Sin and wrong. The world is under the influence of the Adversary and his cohorts. We must see things as God sees them. ajc

    Like

  49. Before you go, ajc, just one thing. Consider it, please.

    There’s NO SUCH THING as the debbil. . . bad things happening result from one thing and one thing only. Individual choices.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. p.s. I don’t think Eric was defending Sproul, I think he was defending himself and the authority of pastors. I think he was seeing himself under some type of scrutiny and might believe in that pastor authority thing (don’t question or touch the pastor) I think he got his feathers ruffled and couldn’t let go. Misplaced (big time) loyalty. Dangerous, really dangerous. ajc I mean DANGEROUS.

    Like

  51. Carmen sure, how? But to dear porpoise if I was in love or had what I considered a good marriage and it went south, I believe I would not be quite so happy everybody wants a good life perhaps you are exceedingly blessed ajc

    Like

  52. Withheld said,

    BATTLE OF THE SEXES

    At its core, domestic abuse versus domestic discipline is a battle of the sexes.

    Conservative men have tradition on their side.

    Liberal women have laws on their side.

    That may be true in general terms, but I don’t know if the lines are as clearly drawn as that at all times.

    Some women buy into this stuff (specifically, “Christian wife spanking”) and will come to blogs like this to defend it, or defend similar practices or attitudes, that could be considered derogatory or harmful to women.

    Withheld said,

    LIKELY OUTCOME

    In the end, conservative men will probably win because tradition tends to outlast law prohibiting it.

    But then you have conservative women such as myself who won’t put up with the percentage of conservative men who defend things such as “wife spanking.”

    Withheld said,

    It is simply somewhere between difficult and impossible to get rid of practices that have survived over time.

    I have never before heard that wife spanking is a common practice among differing cultures over long stretches of time (as in centuries).

    Withheld said,

    This seems particularly true when governments try to eradicate longstanding practices with laws. Examples include the early 20th century Prohibition of alcohol in the United States and the late 20th century and early 21st century war on drugs.

    …. While true, the issue under discussion was whether the what people do over time, such as wife spanking, tend to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

    This, by the way is also why, along with organized crime, religion in Russia was able to survive three quarter of a century under the authoritative Bolshevik domination.

    That doesn’t mean it’s always pointless to try enacting laws against so-called traditions or particular sins that some consider harmful to people.

    I have read that pederasty and pedophilia have been pretty common through history in some cultures, but I don’t take that to mean that the USA (or other nations) should suddenly remove statutory rape and child fondling from being arrestable or jailable offenses.

    ‘Let’s just remove child rape and child molestation off the law books because some men have, through the ages, diddled children’ doesn’t seem to be a smooth move.
    (But I am not sure if that is what you’re arguing or not, but that can be one outcome of your observation, as I read it.)

    Withheld said,

    Neither is “wife spanking” specifically condoned nor forbidden by the Bible. It is one of those issues on which the Bible is silent.

    This one of those apples and oranges comparisons. Conservatives are not necessarily Christian. Likewise, not all Christians are conservative.

    Neither is “wife spanking” specifically condoned nor forbidden by the Bible. It is one of those issues on which the Bible is silent.

    Yes, but the sexist dilbert men (and their female allies who go along with this) who call themselves Christians (who are conservative) tend to use the Bible to justify wife spanking.

    Withheld said,

    More clear is that, for all their faults, male dominated households of 60 years ago were far more stable than is the case these days. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!

    What do you consider stable?

    A few reasons why marriage is delayed, or not happening today, include, but not limited to issues such as women putting marriage off to finish college, work for several years first, and that a lot of young men are unable to obtain full time, steady work that would allow them to financially support a household and wife.

    Withheld said,

    As previously stated, my point is that what what people have done over time tends to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

    It does not follow that people should then stop trying to eradicate it.

    Slavery has existed for centuries across nations and still takes place today, such as young women who are kidnapped and sold into sex slavery rings in the United States.

    That it still occurs does not necessarily mean that American citizens, law enforcement, or our legal system should simply shrug their shoulders and give up because it’s inevitable it may happen at times.

    Are you arguing that people should stop fighting against, or enacting laws against, practices they consider immoral or harmful? I’m not seeing what your greater point is – or perhaps you don’t have one but you are merely making observations.

    Withheld said,

    I don’t have to. Couples have started cohabiting instead of marrying. As a result, the divorce rate is down.

    Then, too, marriages are simply not taking place. The number of never-married adults has become greater.

    Withheld said,

    Actually, I did nothing of the sort. Instead, I pointed out that long standing practices tend to outlast efforts to eradicate them.

    And the take away from this view is what?

    That it’s okay for men to wife spank?

    That the Christians on this blog who oppose it should just accept it as a fact of life and stop speaking out against it, or what?

    Withheld said,

    Really, are you so sufficiently naive to believe women are happier today than they were in previous generations? If so, might I suggest that you peruse both current and past results from the United States General Social Survey.

    (and)
    …While women in previous generations may have been “stuck” in “bad” marriages, research suggests that having more options made available to them has not necessarily made women happier.

    That response (“Really, are you so sufficiently naive to believe women are happier today than they were in previous generations?”), among a few others of yours I’ve seen, was unnecessarily condescending, or it comes across that way.

    Anyway….
    And the cure for American women’s supposed unhappiness today is to embrace and accept 1950s, old school “male dominance” in marriage (to use one of your phrases), or for the folks on this blog to stop complaining about wife spanking?

    You’re saying then that a woman’s only choices in life are between a “sh*t sandwich” or a bowl of snot ice cream. -?

    May there not be another, third (or 4th, 5th, etc) alternative? There are only two outcomes for women in your view?

    There are some women who get by in life okay in a third or 4th alternative.

    Author Bella DePaulo is a never-married woman who is happy being single and living alone. There are women who are lesbians – they are happy to have a romantic partnership with another woman.

    There are conservative Christian women married to conservative Christian men who have egalitarian marriages, who are happy in those marriages (Christian author Jory Micah is one such person; she blogs regularly).

    Like

  53. I said I wasn’t going to blog anymore. I need to spend more time in reading the word and praying but I am having a delicious lunch of home made French fries and salad and have a few minutes How does the husband decide what deserves spanking? Burned French fries?? Not agreeing with something the husband (and I use that term lightly) says or does??? How do you hold an adult down for a spanking? Why doesn’t that adult just say no way you jerk. Get your kicks some other way. All I can think of is the woman is following religion instead of the spirit and the word. Common. On the 1950’s thing. My parents were married during the 50’s and my dad wasn’t a jerk or pervert. He loved and looked after my mom. I had the best parents in the world. A real family with normal problems (not enough money etc.) I had not even heard of this or knew what a Calvinist was until recently. All in the name of religion. Thank you Father for my mom and dad and family. ajc

    Liked by 1 person

  54. P.S. that picture of the man taking off his belt is disturbing. It might be better or make a better contrast to have a picture of a family sitting together at a restaurant for a meal. ajc As poor as we were, my dad took us out to the local steakhouse or base club to eat. Some of my most precious memories. ajc

    Like

  55. There are always going to be exceptions. Generalizations tend to be about flow rather than specifics. Where humankind has been is often a good indication of where it is headed.

    Historically, dating back to at least the time of the Romans in Western civilization, it wasn’t until the Age of Enlightenment that husbands no longer had absolute laws over their wives. It not until the late 19th century the Maryland passes a law forbidding wife beating. Family courts and relative ease of divorce don’t exist until the early 20th century. Much that was attributable to the Bolsheviks.

    The doors to women’s legal liberation from men don’t swing wide open until the 1960s and ’70s. I know, because I watched it happen. I very clearly remember the changes to society following the Sexual Revolution. Since then, and while you may not care for that assessment, women are at war with men. A very good example is the issues in the 2016 presidential race.

    When it comes to stability, I like things like absence of egregious concentrations of wealth, collective consensus, little evidence of economic morbidity, low crime, low inflation, low probability of first defaults, minimal extreme factions, minimal fluctuation in output, minimal group grievances devoid of ochlocratical behavior, minimal interventions by external actors, minimal juvenile delinquency, minimal migration within contiguous boundaries for economic survival, political behavior consistent with widely accepted norms, relative equality in education, stable households, and where there is little erosion of legitimate authority.

    While the analysis of slavery in the United States is quite accurate, it unfortunately omits what is sometimes known as wage slavery or the working poor. It also neglects what happened to the modern Soviet woman after collapse of the Soviet Union. After women lost that equality status under the Soviet constitution, there developed a thriving network of sex slaves from Odessa to numerous counties. Destinations include the United States.

    Women in the United States weren’t encouraged to go to college until after the Soviet Union launched Sputnik. The big lie then was that the Soviets beat the Americans into space because they had women engineers, professors, and scientists. That was only half the story. The other half was that the Soviets literally had a manpower shortage after the Great Patriotic War. They had to fill those vacancies with women! Yet, despite the propaganda, the Soviet’s success in space was largely attributable to one man.

    Please feel free to fight for all the laws you wish. At the same time, please remember that laws are, quite literally, paper thin. That was a reality Soviet women, once an exemplar to the world, too for granted until it was swept out from under them without a shot being fired in a revolution.

    The point of the above is that progress isn’t linear. It is usually cyclical. As a result, when stretched out over time, it resembles a sine wave oscillating around a central tendency. Historically, that central tendency has been male-dominated institutions with women playing subordinate roles.

    When it comes to wife spanking, while you may think it harmful, it might be a personal choice for some women. To put this in perspective, it might be wise to remember that on the other side of the male-female divide there are men very willing and legally able to deny women access to any and all forms of birth control. Each side is pointing a political finger at the other while claiming what they’re doing is immoral.

    In other words, while the Religious Left is formulating plans to control control men, The Religious Right is making plans to control women. Right now, Religious Right has more money and has the ear of Congress! Also, five of the nine justices on the Supreme Court are Catholic.

    The only reason Republican politicians may not quashed access to birth control thus far is because campaign contributors are making a ton of money off birth control products. In addition to the pill, there may be a male birth control product on the market next year. With the huge profit margins on pharmaceuticals, there are literally millions of dollars per year in profits at stake.

    Still, in addition to the war on Planned Parenthood, half a dozen companies and orthodox Christians of various stripes are lined up to fight providing birth control products for women. One Catholic college in particular sees itself as being in the forefront of the fight to save lives of the unborn just like it was in its battle with institutionalized slavery.

    Finally, while you are perfectly free to accusing me of being condescending, please remember that I have been called a “moron” and “vile:” in posts on this forum. Yet, I did not respond in kind.

    Like

  56. If this is something done under the guise of Christianity then other pastors should call up the pastor that condones this, make an appt. with him and take him to task over it. I think that is scriptural. The people doing this are smearing the gospel. The people involved in this are not exposed to this blog. If there are victims (I don’t mean willing participants), then other Christians should step in and help them even if it is only to picket the churches involved. I think there is more emotional abuse here than actual physical abuse. ajc

    Liked by 1 person

  57. O.K. signing off for good. No point of going on and on about this. I now know about this ugly activity that people are engaged in, Shocking and revolting and unsound but unless there are true victims and they are helped, why go on and on. bye ajc

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Withheld, you keep talking about a war between men and women and asserting that women are trying to control men. I see no evidence of that at all. Control them how? What in the world are you talking about?

    Liked by 1 person

  59. “…you keep talking about a war between men and women and asserting that women are trying to control men….”

    Spurious accusations will get you nowhere.

    If you are in denial about the current state of American politics, so be it.

    Like

  60. Spurious accusations? You said clearly that women are at war with men in your last post in this thread and that women were trying to control men in another thread. Have you forgotten already?

    I am not in denial about the state of current politics. As I have said, I see no signs of women trying to control men, only women wanting equality. I have asked you to provide an example and you either can’t or won’t. You just accuse me of things (making spurious accusations and being paranoid) rather than contribute to a discussion.

    Like

  61. “How is this related to “Christian” husbands spanking their wives….”

    Much like abortion and birth control, wife spanking is a proxy war issue between two deeply entrenched largely gender-specific issues.

    Like

  62. Homemade fries?

    Yum!

    I’m blessed to have a husband who isn’t aggressive, nor ‘religious’.

    That said, I don’t know where he is at with the Lord. He’s just a really nice guy.

    Plenty of men spew Bible verses every sentence and yet are the biggest dogs of all.

    I got the other type… The guy who is the ‘probably not reaaalllly saved’ one (every church has one) because he never bought the religious tripe. My husband is intelligent (professionally speaking) so he just thinks religion is a good laugh.

    But he believes in the Lord and the produce in his life is sweet.

    Blessed? Absolutely.

    But I’m definitely alone on these issues regarding faith and sorting out ‘Churchianity’.

    Regarding Eric and Pastorrrs.

    There is no such thing as a full time salaried Pastor with ANY authority in the New Testament.

    It’s proof texting gone mad.

    Do yourself a huge favour and look up every reference to the word Shepherd from Greek Poimen (translated as pastors ONCE in Ephesians).

    It has absolutely nothing to do with a man made ‘office of a bishop/pastor’.

    Religion folks.

    Ajc, feel free to get my email from JA too if you need a chat offline.

    We are all working through the church crap!

    Carmen. Don’t know you but I care about you.

    Not cheap words.

    I’ve seen answer crazy prayers over the years in my life. He is there and He is good.

    Churchianity is THE LIE.

    Like

  63. In the end, conservative men will probably win because tradition tends to outlast law prohibiting it.

    Really, Withheld? Does that mean I can order my slaves here, or do you have your own website –?

    Like

  64. One can’t say that with any degree of certainty, BTDT, as “Mark” didn’t write his gospel until 40 years after the crucifiction, and any information he might have had as to what Yeshua may or may not have said, would have been multiple-hand, and as such, hardly credible. Sadly, “Matthew” did no better – writing 5+ years after “Mark,” nearly 90% of his entire gospel was copied from “Mark,” in many instances, word for word.

    Like

  65. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!

    That’s absolutely true – being divorced was looked down upon and divorcees were ostracized. Instead, incompatible couples simply stayed together and remained miserable, while churning out socially maladjusted children.

    Like

  66. Carmen you mean no such thing as the Devil?????? ajc

    Not Carmen here, ajc, but I CAN share a little information. The “Devil,” as such, was not found in the Bible until after the Babylonian Captivity of the 500’s BCE. The Jews, living in captivity in Babylon, were freed when the Persians overran Babylon. Over the next 50 years, the Persians (Iranians) also returned them to Israel and aided in rebuilding Jerusalem. In the process of their association with the Persians, the Jews had occasion to learn of their religion, Zoroastrianism, which consisted of a good god, Ahura Mazda, and his evil twin brother, Angra Mainyu. From this point on, Satan, who had been a servant of the Bible’s god – the ‘Ha Sa-tan’ – began taking on more of the characteristics of the Persian Angra Mainyu.

    Much of the imagery we currently have for ‘the devil,’ comes not from the Bible, but from Milton’s “Paradise Lost” and Dante’s “Inferno

    Like

  67. I very clearly remember the changes to society following the Sexual Revolution. Since then, and while you may not care for that assessment, women are at war with men.

    Interestingly, Withheld, I viewed the same revolution and saw no sign of a war. Possibly I was too busy fraternizing with the enemy —

    Like

  68. In that same vein, on the other side of Israel, in Egypt, much further back in antiquity, two other twin-brother gods ruled Egyptian mythology – Horus (the good twin) and his evil twin brother, Set. Ultimately, Set killed Horus and chopped him into a thousand pieces, but the interesting part is that in ancient Egypt, gods were addressed as ‘Lord’ (that hasn’t changed much) and the Egyptian word for ‘Lord’ was, ‘Ten’. Much as in Spanish and other Mediterranean languages, the adjective followed the Noun, proper or common. ‘Lord Set’ then, would have been ‘Set-Ten’ – I can easily see how the word, ‘Satan’ could have evolved from that.

    Much of the Jewish religion, once one studies the sources, borrows heavily from the mythologies of other cultures.

    Like

  69. But slavery is thousands of years old, and abolition only a hundred and a half – didn’t you contend that such laws would be shortly overridden? That Conservatism (the art of keeping things the way they never were) would prevail?

    Like

  70. Tradition will outlast and overcome laws to its contrary, you said, I heard you (I have very keen hearing –).

    Like

  71. “…slavery is thousands of years old….”

    And slavery is still with us. Sex trafficking and wage-slavery are rampant. So is much of the American penal system. So is child labor and child marriage. Even migrant labor is can be a form of slavery.

    Like

  72. “Tradition will outlast and overcome laws to its contrary….”

    Absolutely. It is one of the safest bets in human history.

    Like

  73. Wage slavery? Really? Anyone can claim wage slavery. Here’s a plan – stop working for a living and let us know how that works out for you.

    Like

  74. “Anyone can claim wage slavery.”

    While true as defined by some dictionaries, the reality describes a more insidious and dehumanizing reality. It also negates the virtues of free trade as proposed by Adam Smith.

    Like

  75. Pingback: Spiritual Sounding Board: The Legacy That a Defamation Lawsuit Left to the Survivor Community | Spiritual Sounding Board

  76. The evils of Calvinism know no end, do they? “There’s a special place in hell for wife beaters,” a wise person once told me. Yep.

    Like

  77. Pingback: R.C. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation Bible College | Spiritual Sounding Board

  78. “I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement.”

    This pretty much sums up your post. You have posted content you can’t validate but because it falls in line with your opinion you publish it. Not exactly high-end journalism.

    “These women need our prayers and our help. We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty. We have voices and must speak up for them.”

    Please name some of the women at Saint Peter Presbyterian Church that you have reached out to and helped? Name one.

    Like

  79. Tim, perhaps you could offer some support yourself instead of conveying your smug refutation.

    Have you ANY IDEA how much work Julie Anne does with abused women? Did you even make an effort to find out? Or did you just read this one post and decide that you had to make an effort to silence her?

    Believe me, she’s used to your kind. Aren’t we all. . .

    Like

  80. I’ve become convinced that wife/husband submission is not a submission based on authority, because in all other authority relationships (church, state, parenting), the person in authority is given the tools to punish disobedience. Yet the husband is never given any method of disciplining his wife.

    It doesn’t surprise me, then, that those who DO insist that a husband/wife relationship is authoritative, like parent/child, are going to manufacture their own support of a method to “punish” disobedience.

    I think it’s then an interesting thought exercise that virtually all call themselves complementarian are functionally egalitarian because (thankfully) the husbands would never even consider hitting their wives. Although, a subset of those husbands would take their wives before the church leaders.

    Like

  81. Pingback: Spiritual Sounding Board: Updating the Legacy – Year 5 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  82. Yet another example of how truly dysfunctional Christianity actually is. Women who equate domestic violence and spousal abuse with being “loved and cared for” are a classic example of the victim mentality typical of women living a dysfunctional lifestyle. It differs in degree only, not in its basic nature, to any other domestic abuse. Abusive men in any scenario commonly report that they do it for their partner’s “own good” or that “she deserved” the abuse. Blackening a woman’s eye or knocking out her teeth differ only in degree, as compared to spanking – same underlying principle. Christianity puts forth so much irrational dogma. Why should anyone be surprised at this one. It is yet another shining example of a true lack of critical thinking on the part of persons who ascribe to this philosophy or at least those who do so in the context of the fundamentalist/evangelical sects. The Christians of yore who burned persons at the stake for “heresy” have resurfaced as today’s wife-spankers, all smugly done in the name of God.

    Like

  83. Was Jesus an “Alpha Male?”

    It’s okay and natural for a man to want respect from his wife. (And vice versa.) What bugs me is when control freaks take to reading their wives’ mail. It’s the wives’ job to figure out proper “submission.” I wish we could find a better term since the word sounds passive and doormat-like. Not like the Proverbs 31 wife at all.

    What the husbands need to worry about is minding their own business. Self-sacrifice and service to their wives and kids, loving your wife more than your own body, being willing to die for her and your kids.

    Do that and she will feel a whole lot more respectful toward you. Hard to respect a temper-tantrum throwing three-year-old in a grown man’s body. Maybe these abusive hubbies need to spank themselves!

    Like

  84. My own personal views on the subject are that both the husband and the wife in these bizarre relationships are deriving erotic gratification during these activities. It is well known that many persons do, in fact, experience such reactions to sadomaschochistic activities. Unable to accept those tendencies in themselves, the people have turned to religion so as to find a way to justify these aspects of themselves which they cannot otherwise reconcile. By saying that “God commands” it to be so, they have found a way to rationalize that which they could not otherwise accept or defend. People use religion to justify all manner of bizarre and even evil activities. Witness murdering people at abortion clinics, terrorist activities and a whole host of other injustices done in the name of religion. The CDD folks have simply found a way to justify behavior in which they want to engage but which most people within society would find reprehensible. They delude and deceive no one, but themselves. At least, they are harming no one outside of the people so engaged. Such is more than can be said of a whole lot of other religious finatics who violently impose their ideology on innocent others.

    Like

  85. No doubt such cases as you describe exist. But what the women who have spilled the beans on this “spanking” movement claim is that it was not a matter of consent in their cases. If they found this beating so enjoyable why did they leave the men who gave them what they wanted?

    Not all women enjoy physical abuse–idiots reading 50 Shades of Grey notwithstanding.

    Like

  86. Rachel, it is not that the CDD women find the spankings so “enjoyable” per se. Rather, it is that the couple finds the entire experience erotic and they need a way to justify what most people would regard as a perversion or, at best, a fetish. It is part of their sexuality only they know that most people would view their particular preferences with a jaundiced eye. Accordingly, they have come up with this “what God commands” spin on it in an effort to justify what most people would think is rather bizarre behavior. If God did not “command” them to so engage, they would find some other rationale for what they are doing. They don’t enjoy the pain, per se. Rather they like the entire scene of humiliation, submission, “being punished” and then being loved or coddled afterwards. It turns them on – both of them. They put up with the pain in order to obtain the second benefits associated with it. The women who leave physically abusive men are not part of this mindset. They are involuntarily abused vs the CDD crowd to consent to the behavior for the secondary erotic gratification they gain. I have not read 50 Shades of Grey so I cannot comment as to this component of your post.

    Like

  87. LEB, I’m sure that some couples are like that, but what the article is talking about is abuse and domestic violence. Completely one-sided. I’m sure there are couples that enjoy anal sex. Couples. There are women who find it completely violating and degrading. So, for one, it may be within the proper bounds of marriage, and for the other it’s sexual abuse.

    The background here is women who are taught patriarchy from the pulpit – that their husband is always right and that they are always wrong. They are saved through obedience and childbearing. Their close friends and their spiritual advisors all promote the same thing. It leaves them completely helpless – they think that something is wrong, but everyone they trust seems happy enough and doesn’t want to listen to them gossip about their husbands, etc.

    I don’t think the wife is somehow contributing to the situation. She was told she’s a worthless sex slave. If she goes to the church, she knows that they will victim blame – they will try to dig up dirt on her, then use it to blackmail her, or they will say, “there are two sides to every story” and when her husband denies it, they’ll believe him. They will refuse to promise her protection should it happen again. This happens over and over again.

    My situation is nothing to the extent, but my father emotionally abused me. He would spank me whenever I “back talked” – whether that was in front of my friends or in front of his friends or in front of my siblings. He completely humiliated me and treated me like I had no rights. The church observed bits and pieces of this and never stepped in. In fact, they repeatedly taught that we needed to “honor father and mother” and “obey our parents”. They taught no limits to that, so there were times I had to choose between humiliation in front of people or being spanked or yelled at. All the while we kept up appearances at church as much as possible, but even when we didn’t, the church completely backed the authority structure.

    So, there it was. I knew I was utterly alone. There was no one I could trust to talk to about how I was treated. No one was safe, not my pastor, not my friends, not my teachers. I had to walk the knife edge of giving up my sense of humanity, or suffering whatever. Most of this was subconscious – there were those points I just knew I couldn’t give in, and there were many points where I could go through the motions without feeling like I was giving something essential up.

    I put as much distance as I could while still wearing the mask of honoring and obeying. When I thought there was enough distance, I confided in a pastor some of the lesser stuff, and I got back complete affirmation of my father and rejection of my own assessment – that I must obey no matter how personally degrading something was – as long as it was “Biblical lawful”. That put the nail in the coffin of my old church background. I knew I could never heal as long as the church sided with my abuser.

    Like

  88. Mark, Your very moving narrative is yet one more reason why many people, myself included, have virtually no use for the church in modern society. You provide an excellent case study of what happens when this sort of dogma is taken to an extreme. Hopefully you grew into adulthood and escaped the trap where you found yourself ensnared. Hopefully, healing has begun. Indeed, it is hard to heal when you have such grave wounds fostered upon you and then by people you loved and trusted. Healing is a long process and you may never completely recover from this trauma but hopefully you are making progress. It is hard to forgive and let go of anger towards people who abuse us esp when these are the very people who are suppose to love and protect you. It is, thankfully, in the past for you now and you no longer have to endure the humiliation and pain which plagued you during your youth. It will be even harder to let go of the hostile emotions and you feel towards the various persons involved. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves not the persons who wronged us.

    Your situation is not all that different from the spanked wives. In their case, the couple seeks justification through religion for their out-of-mainstream erotic preferences. They use religion to justify it so they will not have to view themselves as somewhat sexually deviant. In your case, the underlying principle is the same. Your father had sadistic tendencies and enjoyed humiliating and abusing you. He enjoyed hurting others. One does not, however, like to view himself in such a light so he contrives a way to justify it – once again using religion. He was sadistic and he sought to justify this evil via shrouding the behavior under the guise of religion. The church elders and authorities, for their part, were complicit – accessories to the abuse, as it were. There is no justification for what they did. You know that and i know that.

    Your job now is to put all of that injustice behind you and move forward. It won’t be easy. It sounds like the wounds are still quite fresh on your mind. You have crawled out of the abyss and now you have the freedom to move forward. Healing will be long and difficult – with many setbacks – but it can be accomplished.

    Like

  89. LEB, “Your situation is not all that different from the spanked wives. In their case, the couple seeks justification through religion for their out-of-mainstream erotic preferences.”

    I disagree. If the spanked wife is like me, she feels that there is no way out. She is completely helpless. It’s not a turn on. It’s not erotic. It’s humiliating and degrading.

    I didn’t “choose” to get spanked in front of my friends. Just because these wives are legally adults doesn’t mean that they are emotionally mature enough to grasp what is happening. I think someone here posted a video about cults and manipulative control. The point of the video was that, people who are manipulatively controlled don’t realize they’re being controlled.

    So, yes, a woman who is not being manipulated who consents to being spanked is receiving something positive from it, but a woman whose sense of self-image and self-worth has been so destroyed that she thinks being spanked is a just punishment has no ability to truly consent, whether she’s 16 or 60.

    Like

  90. LEB, “He was sadistic and he sought to justify this evil via shrouding the behavior under the guise of religion.”

    I wouldn’t say he was sadistic. He found a church that matched his theology, and that church praised him for having his children under control, even approving the external means. I think there are men and women so deceived by theological systems that they call good evil and evil good. It’s even more complex because a half-truth is always more compelling than an outright lie. Men and women are drawn to patriarchy because they see the effects of “lax” parenting, and the half-truth hook that lax parenting enables delinquency gets them to swallow the line and sinker that outlines physical and emotionally abusive parenting as the Biblically ordained method.

    Liked by 1 person

  91. Mark, Remember one important difference. You were a child with no rights and no power. You were very literally trapped in that situation. There is no need to obtain consent to spank a child. The child is truly helpless until he grows up and leaves the home where he is being abused. The CDD wife must agree to this abuse and she is free to withdraw consent at any time. The husband who abuses his wife in this manner, absent her consent, could very well end up in jail. For that reason the Church authorities put a great deal of emphasis on the wife “submitting.” They know full well that if she does not do so, the husband will be in peril legally.

    Now, I will grant you that there may well be some women who fit the scenario you describe. For most, however, such is not the case. My own grandmother was the victim of domestic abuse at the hands of her violent husband. One important factor to consider is that in cases of true abuse where the husband beats the wife, it is typically not spanking. They punch them, kick them, slap them, hit them with objects like 2 x 4 boards, etc. They knock out teeth, break ear drums, blacken eyes, punch or kick in the abdomen and perpetrate all manner of injuries. They don’t usually spank their wives, per se. The spanking for the CDD crowd has an erotic element although they are loathe to admit it. You would not see any of them advocating blackening an eye or kicking the wife in the abdomen yet these are very common behaviors in true abusive, non-consensual marriages. If you have ever read some of the posts by the DD or CDD woman, it becomes readily apparent that they enjoy this lifestyle. In fact, they describe scenarios wherein they provoke the husband so he will punish them. It is almost as if they are play-acting, at times. They use God as an excuse for something they want to do, anyway. A whole lot of couples engage in these activities without any basis in religion.

    In the scenario you describe, you were truly helpless. You were a child, dependent on your parents. You had not realistic way out and you certainly were not intentionally provoking your father so he would spank or otherwise humiliate you. More likely, your father had a violent, hair-trigger temper and it took next to nothing to provoke him. You don’t mention whether or not he drank alcohol but if he did, doing so would further lower his inhibitions. If he also abused alcohol, it would take even less to provoke him. You were suffering in a very real sense. These women are not suffering. They gleefully chat with one another on forums about how happy they are in these relationships and how wonderful is their marriages, as a result. They share all the gory details with one another including how great the sex was afterwards. You, by contrast, liked nothing about the lifestyle you were forced to endure. You would most certainly ended the abuse if you could. Certainly, you would not chat with your friends about it, describing all the humiliating details you experienced at the hand of your father. It was a source of shame for you.

    Perhaps a few women are affected in the way you suggest. The majority of them like the lifestyle and they willingly share the details, comparing notes with one another. Worse, they believe they are getting brownie points with God for engaging in these behaviors.

    Like

  92. Mark, regarding your previous comment, I am certain there was an element of what you describe on the part of your father. Absolutely the people who swallow hook, line and sinker the various fundamentalist theology are not the rocket scientists of the world. No one with true critical thinking skills would buy into this garbage. BUT, having said that, I do also believe your father enjoyed what he was doing. It is one thing to spank a child because you believe doing so is in the child’s best interest. It is quite another to repeatedly humiliate the child and reign terror upon him in the manner you have described. I would say, based on what you describe, that your father fell to the extreme end of the spectrum, even given the circles in which he traveled. Yes, of course, they buy into this stuff and yes they are not very bright, but part of the reason the theology appeals to them is because it allows them a “legitimate” avenue to do something which they want to do, anyway. Odds are that even if your father were an atheist, he would have abused you. Both my grandfather and his youngest son were violent and abusive men. Neither one of them ever attended church nor endorsed an theology. Some very intelligent persons can be violent. It is not only the simple-minded who abuse. It is just that the smarter people are less likely to use God as an excuse for what they are doing.

    Like

  93. The CDD wife must agree to this abuse and she is free to withdraw consent at any time.

    Are you sure she is truly free? Is she free like another type of abused, controlled spouse?

    This thread gives me the heebie jeebies but generally in these ‘Christian’ situations, the wife been told she is subject to the husband, to obey him in all things, to keep house, children, etc, or she does not please God – not man, GOD. If the man has chosen this, she is basically in the same situation as any other abused wife, whether she has been coerced into signing a piece of paper or not. So is this truly analogous to an S&M situation where two parties enter in? Sometimes maybe, but I suspect often no. That spiritual element is added part you are discounting.

    Liked by 1 person

  94. LEB, “Absolutely the people who swallow hook, line and sinker the various fundamentalist theology are not the rocket scientists of the world. No one with true critical thinking skills would buy into this garbage. BUT, having said that, I do also believe your father enjoyed what he was doing.”

    My dad was a Ph.D. scientist with excellent critical thinking skills.

    I think you are ignoring or unaware of how coercive peer pressure is, and especially how coercive it is when church leaders and spiritual fathers who led you to Christ, then tell you how Christ says you should act. My father grew up in an emotionally abusive home, and when he became a Christian, he put two and two together – that he should continue the same treatment, except now it was a spiritual duty to grow the next generation to obey Christ.

    There’s a pretty well-known psychological experiment that was done many years ago, called the Milgram experiment. It was set up like a quiz show, where the subject was told that they had to administer a shock to the contestant if he got the answer wrong. The “contestant” was an actor paid to play the part, but would act as if he were being shocked. For each wrong answer, the voltage was increased, with the dial showing levels that were mildly painful, severely painful and even deadly. The question was whether the subject could be coerced, based on the situation, to administer a deadly shock. These were all normal people, not sadistic or violent or whatever, yet 65% of them administered what they thought was a lethal dose of electricity based on told that they had to follow the rules, and by coercion. You can easily find articles about this study.

    If 65% of normal people can be convinced to kill someone else based on a brief situation set up to remove their autonomy (this was designed to figure out why soldiers would gas innocent Jews), then your assumption that every adult is fully “willing” to participate in an abusive relationship is fundamentally flawed. People are born and raised in a situation that does exactly this. “Spare the rod, spoil the child!” “Whoever spares the rod hates his son!”

    What I’m saying is that many churches fall into cult status by using these sorts of emotional, psychological and spiritual manipulation techniques. The victims of these cults believe that it is God’s will for them to either abuse or submit to abuse, and those that show any signs that they aren’t in lock step get publicly humiliated, ostracized by their community, or even told they’re on the path to eternal torment.

    Patriarchal cult churches teach women that they are sinful and worthless. Their only path to salvation is a life full of self-denial and self-abuse, best done at the hands of a husband taught to be a “godly leader of his home” (i.e. abusive). If they complain, they are obviously in rebellion and must be disciplined. They are taught to treat their every thought with suspicion and their husband/leaders thoughts with blind trust.

    CDD is a mark of a patriarchal cult. One where the women are so beaten down and humiliated that they accept this as God’s will to bring them to himself.

    If you can’t accept that normal people are coercively manipulated to do horrible things like this, then you are going to be stuck blaming the wrong people.

    Liked by 2 people

  95. I heard that some fundamentalist preacher took the wifely submission thing way overboard and said that although abortion is murder, if your hubby tells you to have one it’s your Christian duty as his wife to obey. (It may have been Bill Gothard.)

    Gothard also lit into Abigail from the Old Testament because she got out from her abusive, drunken hubby’s authority in order to keep Israel’s future king from sinning and killing a lot of people including the husband she wouldn’t “submit unto.” God had a funny way of punishing her too; He smote that creepy Nabal she was stuck with and the widowed Abigail wound up married to King David. Woohoo! 🙂

    The Bible also tells us to submit to government officials and masters (employers) but it’s understood that there are limits for our obedience to these authorities. Ditto for submitting to husbands or parents.

    Like

  96. Mark, You make excellent points. Absolutely your father should have known better. He had achieved enough to demonstrate a good solid mind. One thing I do wish to bring up is that abuse tends to perpetuate abuse. Persons who are abused by their parents commonly grow up to be abusive parents, themselves. My guess is that whether or not he became a Christian, he would have been abusive with you. Now having said that, I am the last person to defend Christianity. It is riddled with nonsense and dogma which defies any measure of common sense. I am at a loss to understand how so many people can actually buy into this stuff. Additionally, your citing the Milgram study as an excellent example to support the points you are making. I teach several courses at the university level which include the Milgram study in the course content. It was, as you know, a study in authority and absolutely it stemmed from the post-WWII sentiment to understand the Nazi atrocities. It is also cited as one of the most glaring cases of abuse in research wherein subjects were actually harmed via their participation. As you pointed out, they believed they killed someone and it devastated them. Today we have a whole system of IRB (Internal Review Boards) designed to guard against such research. Another interesting study for you to look up, if you have not already done so, is the Sanford Prison Experiment. It is truly mind-blowing as well.

    Please do not interpret my commentaries as any attempt to defend Christianity or the patriarchs who support it. I am but pointing out that there is more to this story than meets the eye. There are some hidden agendas on the part of the participants. It is fine with me if you want to cast culpability upon the Christian Church for putting forth such ridiculous dogma. I simply want you to be aware that there is more to this whole thing than meets the eye. Some of the “victims” are willing participants because they derive secondary gain from the whole thing. Read some of the postings of the women (and it is primarily the women who post) who participate in this nonsense as they discuss it with one another. They typically share with one another all the gory details of their lifestyle and it becomes quickly apparent that they are willing participants. There is an element of theater to the whole thing.

    When you are dealing with truly abusive men who victimize their hapless wives or girlfriends, you will not hear of much spanking. Rather you will hear of punching, kicking in the abdomen or back, knocked out teeth, black eyes, etc. Gang members who discover their girl friends have cheated on them, shave the woman’s head and eyebrows after which they proceed to beat them up, typically with their fists or by kicking the women once they fall to the ground. They are not adverse to hitting the women with 2 x 4s. They do not, however, ever spank them. Spanking and humiliation has an erotic component for these CDD people or any DD folks. That being said, you are absolutely correct in holding that the Christian Church puts forth absolutely asinine dogma and the patriarchs who run the organization have caused immeasurable harm to many people. At least they are no longer burning the women at the stake and torturing them with absolutely diabolical means in order to elicit confessions for witchcraft. I suppose, in that light, we can view the CDD as progress.

    Like

  97. Rachel,
    Again not to defend these idiots – I think Christian dogma is riddled with asinine ideology BUT it does give the woman an out in instances such as you mention. They are allowed to disobey if the husband is commanding them to do something contrary to the will of God. They are told that they must obey God before man so that is their out.

    Ask yourself this: exactly how bright can these folks really be if – in spite of overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary – they believe the earth is 6000 years old. We are not talking Rhodes scholars here. I don’t fault them for their lack of intellect. That part is not their fault and we folks who do have the brains should be grateful for the straws we drew in the lottery of genetics. I criticize not the gullible who, in good faith, bought into such nonsense, ones but rather the patriarchs and other church leaders who exploit these folks and lead them down the garden path, as it were.

    Like

  98. There certainly are a lot of women supporting this nonsense. I have been reading a book by a preacher relating church members who DO abuse their wives and children in ways you have described.

    I studied psychology in college and am familiar with the Stanford and Milgram Studies.

    As far as human foolishness, gullibility and cruelty go I don’t find anything in the Bible to contradict that. Quite the opposite!

    Like

  99. Rachel,
    They also apply their religious dogma selectively to justify whatever they want to do. They take bits and pieces out of context and use that information in selective circumstances. They have also lost sight of the fact that the Bible has been translated countless times of the ages is is subject to much interpretation. For example “virgin” as in Virgin Mary is an interpretation of what is actually, in the original language, “young girl.’ Young girl and virgin are not identical concepts although many young girls are, in fact, virgins. There is no need to add the concept of being a virgin in a case where one is speaking of a youthful female. She may well have been a virgin when she married her husband but my guess is that she conceived a child in the usual means, namely through insemination by her husband, regardless of her age. Much is lost when these doctrines are translated countless times over. And just for the record, it IS possible to be a virgin and be inseminated by a man. Sperm have been know to travel up from the inner thigh if so deposited there. Not at all common but it has happened if the semen is close to the vaginal opening. There are a whole lot of people in existence whose father withdrew from their mother but they got conceived of just the same. It happens. Additionally, if sperm should happen to be a a man’s fingers and he inserts said fingers into a woman, sperm can be introduced in that way as well.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s