Boerne Christian Assembly Elders Release Statement Regarding Doug Phillips of Vision Forum

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Boerne Christian Assembly elders Bob Sarratt and Jeff Horn release statement regarding Doug Phillips.

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Doug Phillips, Boerne Christian Assembly, Vision Forum, Resignation, Repentance

A Statement by the Elders of Boerne Christian Assembly about Former Elder Doug Phillips.

Posted January 1, 2014

A Statement by the Elders of Boerne Christian Assembly about Former Elder Doug Phillips. Doug Phillips served as an Elder for Boerne Christian Assembly until January, 2013, when he resigned from his office. This resignation from the office of Elder was submitted prior to his confession to church leadership in February, 2013 of an inappropriate relationship with a woman (referenced in his Statement of Resignation from the office of President, on the Vision Forum Ministries website) and associated deception. In the months following, efforts were undertaken toward the goals of restoration and repentance between the parties involved and their respective families . As under-shepherds of a flock of Jesus Christ we take seriously the responsibility to confront those overtaken in a fault, in meekness, in pursuit of the purity of the body, healing for those wounded by the effects of sin, and restoration of those caught in fault, after display of repentance. Doug Phillips confessed these sins, professed repentance of these sins before his local church body, and has been publicly rebuked by the Elders of his church for those same sins. As shepherds and Elders of the flock of Jesus Christ at Boerne Christian Assembly we have sought to provide admonition, personal accountability, and to work toward sound Biblical thinking, repentance, and restoration with all those involved. Healing is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is our desire, as much as is possible, to promote unity within the body of Christ through Biblical counsel, instruction, and oversight, with Biblical pastoral care. The notoriety of this situation, due in part to the national exposure of Doug Phillips’s ministry, brings with it additional challenges and duties. The consequences of sin are great. We long for God’s blessing, preservation of His flock, and continued healing to be ministered by the Word and the Spirit of God unto to all. 

Bob Sarratt, Elder
Jeff Horn, Provisional Elder

 

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Update:

Here is a little something from Mr. Horn’s LinkedIn page:

Assistant Dirctor [sic] of Fulfillment

The Vision Forum

Privately Held; 11-50 employees; Retail industry

September 2005 – Present (8 years 5 months) San Antonio, TX

Supervisory responsibilities for workforce ranging from 4-25 employees
Oversee outbound freight
Interact with account representatives of small package carriers (UPS, FedEx)
Tabulate and submit employee payroll records
Forklift operator
Oversee international shipments
Quality control inspection of orders processed for shipment

Sole Practitioner

Law Office of Jeffrey D. Horn

June 1992 – September 2005 (13 years 4 months) Williamstown, NJ

General practice, including Real Estate, wills and estates, personal injury, family law, and commercial litigation.

79 comments on “Boerne Christian Assembly Elders Release Statement Regarding Doug Phillips of Vision Forum

  1. Very interesting, especially the timing. He confessed the “inappropriate relationship” to his church leadership in February 2013, yet he was still doing public speaking / preaching as late as September 2013, less than two months before his public confession and resignation announcement.

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  2. It sounds like CJ Mahaney….all this sin coming out and yet …BUSINESS AS NORMAL!! I wonder how many people in the BCA or individual churches would be as lucky to be treated like that….

    One thing about fundagelicalism is that there are 2 different rule systems. One for the leadership and one for the body. And the body is always sacrificed before the “Dear Leader” (Kim Jong Il/CJ Mahaney/etc…)

    Yuck….

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  3. “The notoriety of this situation, due in part to the national exposure of Doug Phillips’s ministry, brings with it additional challenges and duties.”

    Me thinks notoriety isn’t the only thing bringing additional challenges.

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  4. I don’t know – – with Jeff Horn being an attorney, having been employed at Vision Forum, it sure seems like a CYA statement of some sort.

    I’ve been reading rumors that yesterday was the last day at Vision Forum. It’s interesting that this statement came out the following day.

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  5. Why on earth was he still doing speaking engagements? I would think the elders of the church would tell him it’s probably not a good idea.

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  6. Interesting post by Bob Renaud on Peter Bradrick’s FB page (under Peter Muela’s post). I agree. CYA. I’ve read on another board that DP is still at BCA even though he’s moved from his VF provided home and the business was shut down as of 12/31/13. I’m sure he’s still held in high honor and has much control at BCA after his “repentance.”

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  7. Lets see if I have this straight. Jeff Horn, a formerly practicing attorney and “provisional elder” (where is that term found in Scripture?) of Doug Phillips’ church would have learned of Phillips’ inappropriate relationship in early 2013. Yet his LinkedIn page indicates he continued to be actively involved in Phillips’ Vision Forum business, apparently while Phillips remained at the helm? I can understand hourly employees remaining with the company, even if they were aware of Phillips’ situation. They have families to feed. However, Horn is a lawyer. He could easily have found alternate employment. But no. He apparently continued to actively participate in an enterprise that was extracting cash from the pockets of unsuspecting fellow believers–most of whom, doubtless, would have no way continued to purchase the products of a man who was preaching one thing while living the opposite.

    Maybe Horn resigned from Vision Forum Inc. and his LinkedIn page is simply out of date. Maybe Horn did not really continue to participate in the taking of money under what appears to me to have been false pretenses. Otherwise, I suggest that Horn is in no position to be serving as an elder, provisional or otherwise.

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  8. Douggie Biblical Phillips ESQUIRE now returns in Biblical Triumph?
    (Biblically, of course.)

    Right after the Biblical public stoning of the Handmaid Ofdoug?

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  9. Why on earth was he still doing speaking engagements? I would think the elders of the church would tell him it’s probably not a good idea.

    They were obviously yes-men and afraid of him. This is what happens when you are under the spell of a powerful man. You lose yourself.

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  10. Every bit of high-religious verbiage in this letter is laughable when you simply consider the dates involved and what DP was allowed to continue to do in public during that period.

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  11. Exactly, That Bad Dog. The timeline says it all combined with the fact that we know Doug Phillips carried on as if he were guilty of nothing as he spoke at a father’s conference, went on a trip to Greece representing Vision Forum, etc.

    Cultmembernomore: It’s shocking to think about how many people quit their jobs, sold their homes and moved sometimes across the country to go to church/work with Doug Phillips. *****clue: if you sell quit your job/sell your house and uproot your family following after a MAN, you may be following a cult leader.

    Check out this conversation going on at Peter Bradrick (son in law of Scott Brown and former intern): https://www.facebook.com/peterbradrick/posts/10201569956983080?comment_id=6200869&offset=0&total_comments=25

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  12. Jeff Horn is a long time VF employee. Being an employee of Doug he was the perfect (read: totally inappropriate) candidate to hold him accountable. Here is their family blog – http://bit.ly/1drozwI

    Additionally Jeff is the father of:
    – Tim Horn (BCA parishoner, former long term VF marketing employee) http://bit.ly/1d1LbFP
    – Cara Horn (Married Michael Fowl who, along with his father Greg, we’re long time VF employees in the IT department. All attended BCA.) http://on.fb.me/1cKNueM / http://linkd.in/1dWRUND
    – John Horn (VF employee and BCA parishoner) http://linkd.in/1g3o1Nx / http://bit.ly/1a3WY3X

    Bob Sarratt was installed as an elder years go as an emergency attempt to show “plurality” of elder-ship during the last BCA scandal with Jen Epstein. It is note worthy that his daughter married Bradley Pierce who works for Don Hart. http://bit.ly/JwvN7Y Don and Bob are very very close.

    Bob Sarratt knew that Doug had been having an affair since Feb. and continued to allow him to teach, and fund raise as if everything was normal. Shameful.

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  13. Mike Jones – Thanks for that info. I think I can smell the BCA/VF stench all the way up here in the desert of eastern Washington. This is sick stuff and to think that all the while, they were professing “God” and pretending to be church leaders. Sick.

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  14. Interesting. I clicked on the home page for the link Mike Jones supplied for Attorney Don Hart of Heritage Defense. Off to the right of the screen, I saw an endorsement by Kevin Swanson. And then it automatically changed to another endorsement – – this time by Voddie Baucham. Wait . . .there’s more. Then there was RC Sproul, Jr. Here is the homepage link: http://www.heritagedefense.org

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  15. Don Hart is on the Board of FORGE Ministries and it’s run by a guy in the church Don pastors.

    Bob Sarratt basically crapped his pants when he found out what happened, and its possible he may have privately consulted with Don who is intimately involved with all things BCA/VF to get counsel on what to do. Its just speculation but if that did happen than it would significantly complicate things because it would mean Don kept it to himself and didn’t inform the rest of the board who according to SB found out in Sept. Keep in mind Don is a lawyer which means A) he’s craftier than your average player and B) he was Dougs legal hatchet man for years and is intimately familiar with Dougs dirty laundry and super aware of any liability he may personally bear for executing Dougs plans of mayhem for years on end.

    Either way the scary thing is that Bob Sarratt’s cover up operation almost succeeded. Doug was really thinking he got away with it and that the empire would march on! Darn that pesky abuse victim who just kept telling her story until she found people who weren’t afraid of Doug Phillips, Esquire and his minions.

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  16. Darn that pesky abuse victim who just kept telling her story until she found people who weren’t afraid of Doug Phillips, Esquire and his minions.
    So just who were those unafraid people? Bradrick, Renaud, and a couple others? Can you verify when Brown knew?

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  17. I remember seeing somewhere (which seemed reliable) that Brown knew BEFORE VF sent DP off to the Mediterranean with his old friends Potter and Morecraft and other unspecting tourists. (Sept 20-29)
    Of course, another full month passed after DP returned, before he resigned.
    Someone correct or verify my timeline.

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  18. I know that the guys at Fredericksburg Christian Fellowship found out and were making things happen long before Bradrick and Renard showed up. I have no idea when exactly SB found out other than what he stated in his year end letter, “The burdens have been particularly heavy since September, when I learned of the infidelities of Doug Phillips spanning many years.”

    One thing you have to keep in mind is that most of these guys DO NOT outright lie (excluding Phillips obviously). They may bend the truth with technicalities here and conveniently omit certain facts, but a bald face lie is as a rule of thumb, highly improbable with these guys, it’s just not how they operate. Accordingly, I take SB at face value on his timeline of events.

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  19. Mike Jones — thanks! I meant to question whether SB knew IN SEPTEMBER, pre-tour, not to accuse him of lying ’bout the month. Still, if he didn’t know– why not?

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  20. Mike Jones – Can you elaborate on what FCF was doing re the DP situation before Bradrick and Renaud got involved?

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  21. Because it from reading Bradrick’s FB it sounds as if Renaud & Bradrick were very involved in the unfolding of events. But, maybe that is just assumption on my part.

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  22. Been away for a while . Hoped to come home to an empty cult-de-sac. Nope. Now they are still moving things around and the last two days there’s been four other cars but they are still living there as of today. Just a little FYI . There is trash and broken stuff all over the driveway so it looks like they are moving soon. Where who knows ?? Anyway hadn’t checked in in a while. I trust everyone here is doing well. We keep holding the champagne and or sparkling grape juice for when we see no more conversion vans ;). Had some lovely nonverbal communication with dougie on Monday at his initiation. Hmmm he’s aparently not in a good mood right now 😉

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  23. 1. Yes VF closed down as of the 31st and the Phillips are SUPPOSED to be out by then but evidently are not
    2. All this went down in Feb. Doug was NOT at the Father/Daughter retreat in the spring
    3. Don Hart did represent Doug (as his lawyer) at FIRST but that was before he knew the details. Once he was told the details of what happened, Doug was dropped faster than his head could spin!

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  24. |Trash and broken stuff all over the driveway. “|
    Please tell me Beale went “Mrs. Tiger Woods” on Doug. Also please tell me she broke all the books, toys, CDs, and DVDs for the socially conservative family over his head. While he was dressed as Robin Hood, men in tights. Is this too much to ask?

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  25. Thanks for the update. I’ve been reading conflicting info, so I was hoping you’d check in. Hope you and bambino are doing well.

    Now why would he be in a bad mood?

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  26. Why is he in a bad mood? Hmmm . . . living with reality instead of in a make believe, imaginary world with Peter Pan may be taking its toll on DP. Welcome to the real world, DP, where deceipt and lies bear consequences.

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  27. This is my first time posting here so I hope I am gettting this in the correct order or place.
    To answer further questions on the Horns. John J Horn is youngest son and an author who recently sold books on VF site. Mom used to work in book store. Brother Tim left and moved when DP stepped down which causes us to believe he knew as a BCA member back then and knew the job may disappear. Dad Jeff we think rode it out till the end or was laid off in September with others,- not sure.John has a website with his full name and many on covers are associated with VF and BCA.. I believe the fellow who did the recent book covers was one of the guys on the Hazardous Journey to Peru last month with JTP and he has done catalog photography work for VF along with a recent BCA wedding in October. These people are so interwoven with each other it is amazing!

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  28. Bridget, You are thinking too normal. DP does not live in the real world. In his mind…. naw… we would not want to go there… scary/evil place of deception and fantasy.

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  29. Hahahaha Jenny don’t think Beall did any mrs tiger woods uuuuunfortuneately- it looks like just broken furniture. I was hoping to see a green tight clad dougie in his little wings staying in that big tent …. Sigh I must’ve missed it. No Christmas miracles in that regard ;). Bambina decided to make an early appearance so I can’t do the follow the trailer at night like I was planning dang it. What use am I ??? Lol but have no fear I shall find out where mail gets fwded should they leave ;). Maybe the cops will have to force it and escort him out . I’ll try to get pics of the ‘perp’ walk hahaha!! I’m gonna miss my coffee run ins with the little chap . He loves me so 😉

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  30. @justashadow – Applying pressure, how ever you want to interpret that. Before the resignation everyone was hush hush about it so it was really a matter of the girl in question talking to enough people over a long enough period of time that a critical mass was reached so that the situation could no longer be ignored. Of the many people she reached out to, no one person wanted to do anything so it took a while for her to tell enough people enough times that it forced some kind of a response. Bradrick and Renard made a splash when they confronted Douglas Phillips, Esq. in SA which was like applying a needle to a balloon that was already swelling with pressure. Would the balloon have popped eventually either way? Probably.

    @watchfuleyes – Can you elaborate on when exactly Don Hubris found out?

    @WomanforFreedom – For posterity sake have you considered taking a picture of Douglas Phillips, Esq. during one of these little impromptu stare downs. There’s nothing illegal about it and I think it would be a fitting tribute before he leaves. Also, congrats on said bambino!

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  31. Mike jones good insight! Ya know I never got a pic of dougie giving me the Hawaiian good luck sign like the other day. He’s very subtle and he got mad when I laughed and he took off. My hands were full . Plus the mister has feared for our safety in all of this . But man It would be priceless right??!! I’d send it to a few people. Maybe one day ….oh wait he’s moving … Woooooohoooo cept dang it why does he have to stay here??!!i can’t imagine there’s much here for them. Guess they’ll do home church and start creeping out a new neighborhood . Thanks also for the baby congrats ! She’s a beautiful reminder of all the blessings God gives us. Even if she came too early and ‘ruined’ Christmas for my other kids. They aren’t impressed . Too bad she won’t get to know our special cult de sac that is going to be boring now. Unless another vfm trustee moves in. Oh no!!! That would stiiiiiiiiiink 😉

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  32. @ Woman for freedom someone post on Jens Gems yesterday that the Phillips family is still attending BCA. Apparantly only the victims have left. So no worries in a house church 🙂

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  33. Welcome Not fooled anymore ! Thank you for more follow up info on the horns! It is truly an interesting web of individuals. Btw y’all got a response from female cougar in the mix up. I may have said some things to her on fb message about what i thought about predatory adults . I half expected / looked forward to a continuing discussion . All I got was this http://americanvision.org/9808/hot-coffee-false-witness-critical-christian/. Interesting there was again no denial or telling me it wasn’t true- she never denied it to me. I think she was just calling me a critical Christian . Haha! Well yup I sure am!! Im very critical if predators . Bless my sinful heart

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  34. It’s nothing more than a very eloquent way of communicating absolutely nothing and raising more questions rather than answering a single one. Spare me.

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  35. That’s what I thought Joyelle . Wondered , why did she even take the time to send it and so what ? And why three weeks later?but then again I have a lot of why questions for her that she will never answer

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  36. Sorry, trying to catch up. W4F ohhhh, your bambina was born!!! How exciting! Congrats to you and your family. Now wait, Doug didn’t congratulate you on populating the earth? No neighborhood cult de sac baby shower to welcome new one into the world?

    I hope you have a restful recovery and have fun snuggling with your precious girl.

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  37. Of the many people she reached out to, no one person wanted to do anything so it took a while for her to tell enough people enough times that it forced some kind of a response.

    This was infuriating to read. Absolutely infuriating. Un-freaking-real.

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  38. @ Mike Jones –

    So Bob Renaud *was* one of the men who confronted DP in Oct.? I had asked that over on Jen’s Gems, but whoever answered said Bob R. was not present, but that there was a 4th man that would remain unnamed.

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  39. Not sure if anybody had a chance to go through their “Confession” Statement but it is a lengthy and Calvinistic.

    The Elders in that “Assembly” are not going to do a meaningful reprimand of a brother whom they consider part of the “Elect”

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  40. Good point, Mark!
    Well, I feel dirty now. Been reading on the “glee and chortling” forum– one of those folks has found Doug and Little Virginia at a wedding October 19th of ’13, photographed by a VF/Hazardous Journeys photographer. Just another date to add to the timeline, since there’s no sign of Beall, but the maid of…. Oh well…. Better stop…
    All I can say is, if he repented back in February, he might have stayed away……
    Back to reading respectable Christian blogs!

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  41. Welcome, Not Fooled Anymore. Thanks for sharing the info. It’s helpful to put the pieces together.

    Dave AA – – Your 11:06 rings a bell with me, too, regarding Scott Brown. But I cannot recall where I read that info and if the information was credible.

    I think before this is all said and done we will be hearing about men who knew a lot more than they are saying publicly. It’s time to clean up shop and remove any church leader who allowed Phillips to make a mockery of Christ by turning a blind eye.

    However, the reality is I know how leaders treat narcissistic leaders. I only have to look at my former pastor, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney. Ugh, this stuff is depressing to think about.

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  42. I should clarify one statement– it’s not reading blogs from a non-Christian emphasis which makes me feel dirty. It’s looking at wedding pictures– smiling young people beginning their life together— a love feast, so to speak– and seeing a “Blemish” there!
    As Jude says,
    “These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves.” v12

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  43. @JulieAnne:

    Exactly, That Bad Dog. The timeline says it all combined with the fact that we know Doug Phillips carried on as if he were guilty of nothing as he spoke at a father’s conference, went on a trip to Greece representing Vision Forum, etc.

    “The adulteress wipes her mouth and says ‘I Have Not Sinned’.”
    — somewhere in Proverbs, regarding a sexual predator

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  44. @DaveAA:

    Well, I feel dirty now. Been reading on the “glee and chortling” forum– one of those folks has found Doug and Little Virginia at a wedding October 19th of ’13, photographed by a VF/Hazardous Journeys photographer. Just another date to add to the timeline, since there’s no sign of Beall, but the maid of….

    Is “Little Virginia” one and the same as “Ofdoug the Handmaid”?

    And shouldn’t “Doug” be “Doug ESQUIRE(TM)”?

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  45. @Theresa:

    New here, what is the glee and chortling forum?

    Probably the house-organ blog of Doug ESQUIRE’s Ministry(TM) or of his yes-men and sock puppets.

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  46. @MikeJones:

    One thing you have to keep in mind is that most of these guys DO NOT outright lie (excluding Phillips obviously). They may bend the truth with technicalities here and conveniently omit certain facts, but a bald face lie is as a rule of thumb, highly improbable with these guys, it’s just not how they operate.

    AKA They wipe their mouth and say “I Have Not Lied”.
    (it all depends on what the meaning of “is” is, you know…)
    Screwtape would be proud.

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  47. @ Mike Jones –

    So Bob Renaud *was* one of the men who confronted DP in Oct.? I had asked that over on Jen’s Gems, but whoever answered said Bob R. was not present, but that there was a 4th man that would remain unnamed.

    I know it was Peter Bradrick, some unknown Dude, & Joe Morecraft. Not sure about the 4th person. Sounds like from Bob’s statement, it might have been him.

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  48. Watchfuleyes:
    It’s so hard to figure out what Doug’s former BFF’s are saying– I think because they’re trying to: distance themselves, look like having taken action sooner than they really did, and not “gossip/slander”– all at the same time!
    I have this niggling little thing where I remember reading a FB comment, where one of Bradrick!’s friends mentioned “we” confronting Doug “this month” — and “this month”, at the time, was November. Which made me think they only went to him AFTER the resignation, and now I can’t find the comment….

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  49. Theresa (and Headless Unicorn Guy). The forum seems to be mostly by folks who’ve come out of quiverfull, patriarchy, and fundamentalism in general. Some are certainly following the comments here. (Hi, and thanks for all your eye-opening research!) Just didn’t think I should link here, since many don’t espouse a Christian POV. I mentioned glee and chortling because back on 10/31, Doug Wilson castigated those who might express glee over Phillips’ downfall, and linked SSB.

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  50. Dave is correct. The glee and chortling comment came from an article by Doug Wilson. He linked to my website in the same article. He thinks we’re chortling over the fact that Doug Phillips is in trouble. I don’t think there is a problem with expressing positive thought that a man who once was abusing is now going to be having a more difficult time using his power to control people. In fact, I think God would be happy, too.

    I actually think it was a fearful response by Doug – fearful in that he knows that many people are onto his conquer and colonizing practices over women. Yea, I’m chortling over that alright. hahahahahahahaha

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  51. Headless Unicorn Guy: little Virginia is Doug’s youngest (known) child and was a flower girl at the 10/19 wedding. Ofdoug was (hand)maid of honor.

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  52. now it all makes sense with all of the transition and things going on that we have been seeing with VF since 2010. Lots of puzzle pieces coming together now. LOTS of them.

    Here’s Bob’s response on Jan 1st on a thread on Peter’s wall:

    Bob Renaud Did you see the pathetic statement by the BCA elders? http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/…/statement-by…. This is terrible. I personally told Bob Sarratt he was negligent for not dealing with this issue for eight months and keeping it quiet. He never informed the VFM board of the infidelitiey. This is terrible that just now they are issuing a statement and trying to claim they did their biblical duty. It wasn’t until we exposed what was going of that they got serious. The statement is full of Bill Clinton like language. Just like Doug’s statement. It’s sad that these men are not heeding the counsel of wiser and more mature men that have been trying to come along side them. God have mercy.
    January 1 at 10:12pm ·

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  53. Quick note to “recycled manuscript page”. I may sign in on *glee/chortling blog* when have time. I prefer it to the *gossip/libel* blog, where so much opinion is presented as fact. I WAS being tongue-in-cheek with my “respectable Christian blogs” remark. The patriarchal types would in no way consider this blog a respectable Christian one, or me a respectable Christian.

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  54. @just a shadow – Renard said on FB he was there with Peter B so I assume yes. What I know for certain is that elders at FCF we’re already involved.

    Back to Don Hubris. Anyone remember this gem – http://bit.ly/1lFN3TU

    Anyone think Don Hart gave Doug Phillips, Esquire the same treatment?

    Anyone think Don wasn’t consulted early on about this whole mess? Either by his client (Doug) or his close friend Bob Sarratt? s(A)r(RAT)t and Don are basically family because his daughter is married to Don’s assistant and they all appear to live on the same property.

    http://bit.ly/1csDCSt
    http://bit.ly/1bEziPZ
    http://bit.ly/JwvN7Y

    Don’t tell me Sarratt didn’t reach out to anyone else for counsel back in Feb. Me thinks someone ought to talk to the TX bar association and get some feedback on how they favorably they look upon their members covering for their clients when they engage in clerical abuse. With three lawyers in the room (Doug, Don and Jeff Horn) you can imagine there was a lot of CYA going on in the room.

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  55. “It sounds like CJ Mahaney….all this sin coming out and yet …BUSINESS AS NORMAL!!”

    Why shouldn’t it be business as usual? “Faith alone, lack of freewill, we’re all just forgiven sinners. Grace grace grace. Jesus ate with publicans and prostitutes. Yada yada yada.” Nobody takes the idea seriously that the gospel is supposed to bring about moral change or that ministers should be held to a higher standard like in the pastoral epistles “blameless, the husband of one wife, etc.” Cheat on your wife, get divorced, remarry, cheat on that one too, kill someone…nothing can touch these guys because nobody believes in personal responsibility but rather in “Jesus died so I can sin with impunity and still go to heaven.”

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  56. davidbrainerd2,

    I also am concerned that Jesus is used as an IMMUNITY IDOL to get into heaven. All Jesus, no them… or Jesus alone, as they like to say.

    When Jesus is their immunity idol, then their own right living (AKA righteousness) is not necessary.

    We must understand this wrong teaching & the resulting wrong actions go hand in hand.

    Jesus is the way, truth, life. Jesus told us how to live here on earth (love God, yourself, others as you do yourself). To do so is already, by default, right living.

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  57. Julie Anne, Have you seen this and what do you make of it? We were rather shocked and not sure what to think!

    We went to the 2014 catalog link last night that someone listed on Jens Gems. : .http://catalog.visionforum.com/2014/offline/download.pdf Did a little further research and found this on Facebook: Vision Forum 2014 Family Catalog Mystery https://www.facebook.com/groups/320131268127889/ This is a closed group but you can see who the members are.

    Obviously something is going on behind the scenes because 45 devout VF followers as of 8:50 CT on January 4, 2014 have already joined this closed group!

    So does anyone know if this is for real and they are actually still in business and going to be running somewhere else? Are they actually selling all these folks products? We saw the Duggars, Moorecrafts, and folks from the local community pictured. Were they informed and asked to have their pictures and products placed in this catalog in light of all that has been made public? I can’t really imagine some are, judging by their public comments, but I do not know if there was some sort of legality or contract for the sale of goods they are not able to get out of to have their name and product taken out. Maybe they are shocked as we are to see this and all that is still in it? Or do they really still endorse all this stuff? I am very confused about all this now. Or is this just a mistake to have this come out and was scheduled but there won’t be anything really for sale. Looks as if the administrator of the FB group does not thinks that is so. Do you have any info and answers? Thanks!

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  58. A Mom, the problem is perpetuated to some degree by the removal of a clause in modern translations (one they removed obviously for this very purpose).

    Romans 8:1 in the KJV says: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (modern versions remove the conditional clause)

    Then in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

    The meaning is anyone who is walking after the flesh is none of Christ’s because he doesn’t have the spirit of Christ. But take out the conditional in verse 1, and make it “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. PERIOD.” And now people are able to be Christ’s without having his spirit at all. That Calvinist organization called Zondervan (in all their modern translations) has perverted the Bible and that’s part of the problem.

    We see a similar problem in Psalm 51:5. KJV: “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” David’s mother sinned.
    The NIV lying “translation”: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” The Bible was perverted by Zondervan to push Calvinism.

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  59. Not Fooled Anymore: I knew the catalog was still out, but was not aware of the secret Facebook group. Susan is the person who added most of the names to the group. Looking through her friends, I recognized former VF interns, RC Sproul, Jr., and a few other names that I’ve seen among Reconstructionist circles.

    When you mentioned you saw the Duggar’s and Morecraft’s picture – were you referring to the VF catalog?

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  60. Yes, I was referring to the new 2014 catalog. Someone on JG’s suggested it may have been already in place from months ago and also said the FB site was maybe from the 2013 contest that will be awarded in beginning of 2014. I can understand that some if the contest was started before all this public info with DP and VF.

    I think though, that after all that has been said by DP himself about his resignation, all that keeps coming out and more, I would have removed my name and face off a FB site if I had heard all of this going on. Maybe that is just me.

    Still, I think I would be very upset to find my family picture, name etc on a catalog after all this. Can’t they take it down from the internet if it is not a real catalog?

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  61. Scott Brown just posted about 9 ways to hold an elder accountable. I wonder if that applies to his own past issues as an elder. When he was faced with accusations, it appears he just bolted and started another church instead of being accountable.

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  62. Not Fooled Anymore – I’m in that closed FB group. It was all about the puzzle, and thus the link to this fall’s catalog. The posted catalog was so that you could see how the original catalog appeared because the clues were in images added as the contest went on. I expect VF had everyone at the events and everyone who sent photos waive their rights to photos, so you probably can’t get your image back.

    Because I was in the email list way back when the first puzzle hunt came out (was that Budinot?), I was invited to join. However, my family started distancing ourselves from VF when we went to the Jamestown Quadricentennial and saw how extravagantly the Phillips’ were living, how pompous he was, and how badly they turned my oldest and his Catholic friend away from the Faith (my son since converted to Catholicism, which I expected would happen after we heard Joe Morecraft condemn all Catholics as hell bound heathens). That did not stop us from enjoying the puzzles. I did not mention these concerns on the group since it was all about the puzzles.

    The people on the FB group seemed to be the VF Faithful, by and large. People were very anxious that the contest was behind schedule and that clues were not being released on time. When they started exclaiming distress at the events and super sales of Nov, I posted a few links specifically about the closing of VF, shipping issues, and risk of ordering. I can’t say it was embraced, but I was pleased I was not thrown out.

    I’ve had enough of the legalism. Between VF, ATI, and Anabaptists. we have had a big enough dose to make me run from the slightest scent of spiritual rules. However, I have a really hard time resisting any historical puzzles and am now an ancestry.com junkie.

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  63. Slight correction – that is the catalog link I used, but it was directly to the VF site. Sorry, I thought we had an original catalog somewhere. I lost interest when the story broke and I had only gotten about 5 of the 30 clues.

    Entries had to be emailed by Dec 15, and the award was to be given in Jan. I could not believe people were still sending in entries when it is obvious that VF did not continue the contest, even though the people who answered the phones assured callers that new clues would be out any day. That was the party line until the employees were all let go. At that time, it was reported that the answering machine said that no further calls would be taken but that all correspondence should be made by email. I followed the conversation just to see how the news would be taken.

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  64. Thanks for your reply Cind Supry. I guess it all boils down for not trusting VF and true motives for us. I appreciate your input and reply.

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  65. Very interesting, Cind. Thanks for stopping by and explaining what that closed FB group was all about. The timing of it did seem odd, but now it makes sense. I’m sorry to hear about your son and his friend. That kind of thing really gets me upset. Ugh!

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  66. I’m not just stopping by. I’ve been coming here since we were broken from the family integrated church movement in 2000.

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  67. Whoops, *2008*, and, not here specifically, but to those websites from also hurt by the associated movements.

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