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The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking

Julie Anne

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As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing:  domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.

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Warning:  this is a heavy and disturbing article.

As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations.  For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.

I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.

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But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?

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One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking.  The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal.  If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical.  Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical.  Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?

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As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc.  What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.

One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.

I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.

Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses.  Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew.  This is going on elsewhere.

We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.

Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.

I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.

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Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm

“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.

I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?

Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm

I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.

Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.

 

Ghirard Says:
December 30, 2013 at 11:08 am

Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.

Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced.   We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:

After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.

Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:

Yes, I did at least try and speak with him. Not that night. It was all too shocking at the time. But later after I’d had some time to process. I didn’t get very far. He’s hypersensitive to anything that he thinks is criticism. There was always the threat of church discipline if you ever got out of line. Just asking the wrong sort of question would earn you his ire. He operates a lot like Doug Phillips, if I understand your descriptions of Phillips correctly. You don’t question the cult leader. Not unless you want big trouble.

It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.

JPGR Says:
December 28, 2013 at 8:21 am

I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.

My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?

Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….

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I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement.  Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening.  So what is a godly response to ungodliness?

Exposure!

Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.

Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.

Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?

Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?

She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.

These women need our prayers and our help.  We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty.  We have voices and must speak up for them.

photo credit: bark via photopin cc

Updated note:  Slight modification of title and removed key words  See note in comments.

738 thoughts on “The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking”

  1. Love and Calvinism are not mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. You guys might not think that because you have this notion that -isms lead to abuse, etc. I don’t buy that. Pride is what leads to abuse. Abuse is all over the world, in all cultures, etc. It’s funny because almost all of the Calvinist I know hardly even talk about Calvin. You guys think we sit around and Calvin this and Calvin that. I’m a Reformed Baptist. I disagree with alot of stuff from Calvin.

    Paul taught right doctrine and he knew the importance of “rightly dividing the word.” I believe Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace or whatever you want to call then are right and proper doctrine.

    And yes, Love must accompany that. Love must acompany any form of doctrine you hold.

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  2. anyways, who that are lost and broken come to Christ with lofty words, doctorate degrees and dissertations?

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  4. Abuse comes with control; and -isms lend itself to control and conformity because it does not allow the person to come up with their own conclusions. Fear usually runs rampant in -isms and places that person in an awful place where they feel that their salvation will be in question. Such as with Arminianism – I do not perform, I lose my salvation; Calvinism- I do not persevere, I was not saved to begin with. May I ask WHO does the fruit keeping of these victims? Well, this then becomes the million dollar question.

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  5. Kevin

    I have encountered no one with more pride than most of the young (mid to late 20s) Calvinist seminary graduates who think that since they believe that they understand TULIP and the necessary other doctrines that underly TULIP, they know everything they need to learn to be a successful pastor. And they will proceed to tell you, regardless of your age, education, years of Christian service, etc., that if you don’t agree with them, you are an ignorant unbeliever and not among the elect. They are more egotistical than the young entrepreneurs I have helped at times over the years.

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  6. And that God loves us is the key doctrine to all others. Without it, there is no doctrine worth believing. BTW believing the right doctrine is insufficient to get one to heaven. One must love God, love that he came as a human being and died for our forgiveness, and by faith in him and his death and resurrection, we can accept the great gift (eternal life), which gift is in fact grace. Without that, no doctrine will save. With it, one has all one needs.

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  7. This is what I mean. You guys think Calvinist have a poster of Calvin on their wall or something. We’re just normal people, who don’t have doctorate degrees or seminary degrees. We probably call oursevles Calvinsts because we hold to TULIP. But, being Reformed is much more than TULIP and Calvin. All Calvin did was formulate some doctrines. We don’t follow Calvin. We follow Christ and him crucified. And you know who Christ is from learning right and accurate doctrine. Doctrine is just teaching. We all have doctrines we follow.

    Noone says you have to have a doctorate to get saved. I wasnt a Calvinist when I got saved. I became one from studying the scriptures. My wife became one after studying the scriptures. My Pastor. Hardly anyone in my church grew up in a Reformed church.

    I know rednecks and rough necks who are Calvinists…..I know african americans from the eastside (aka “the hood”) of Cleveland who are Calvinists…..one of them is my best friend.

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  11. @An Attorney – I have never encountered a young arrogant Calvinist pastor. The stereotype is out there and maybe some do exist but Ive been around the block for many years and have never seen one. The pastors i know love God and love people and want teach people the bible and preach the Gospel to convert people and help them and see them grow. Not sure who you encounter but that doesn’t sound like pastors I know. That sounds like Mark Driscoll type people…..

    But, I could make the same argument. I follow arminian pastors on twitter and they are as arrogant as anything. The SBC has a crusade againt Calvinism. It’s crazy. I guess there is craziness on both sides.

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  13. Paul taught right doctrine and he knew the importance of “rightly dividing the word.” I believe Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace or whatever you want to call then are right and proper doctrine.

    Kevin

    What “word” was Paul rightly dividing?” What we now refer to as the Word (scripture) didn’t exist when Paul was writing letters to the churches. As an aside, I don’t like the term “rightly dividing the word.” Can anyone tell me where it comes from?

    It also seems like you are equating the doctrines of grace and/or Calvin’s Institutes (or his attempt at systematic theology) to the inspired scripture. I don’t view them as equal, or necessary to life and Godliness, by any means.

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  15. FYI – – I changed the comment settings to break up the long comments a bit. Evidently some devices do not allow threads with 300 comments. If you have a problem with this, would you please let me know and what you are using to read the blog? Thanks! ~ja

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  16. I am really not surprised about any of this. The Bible treats women like second class citizens and like nothing more than a man’s property. Peter even taught that women and slaves should be submissive to husbands, masters to the point of beatings and harsh treatment. This passage is in 1 Peter. He mentions how Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him Master. This is disgusting. I don’t understand why Peter instructs me, a woman, to accept abuse like Christ did, but he does not instruct abusive men to be like Christ. These patriarchical doctrines are harmful to women.

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  18. @ Bridget Rightly dividing the Word of God comes from KJV, old English, actually, “the word of truth.” It speaks about correctly interpreting it. A big word for that doing this well is a correct hermeneutic. 🙂 I believe this is what Kevin is trying to say–interpret God’s Word correctly.

    2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    2 Timothy 2:15 New International Version (NIV)
    15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

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  21. Lola,

    In Eph. 5:25 it says “Husbands love your wives like Christ loved the church”.
    I interpret this as Christ being a servant paying the ultimate price so we might be saved. Husbands need to give of themselves to their wives.

    In Mark 10:8 It says “and the two will become one flesh,,,So they are no longer two but one flesh”
    I interpret this as a mutual bond between Woman and Man, one not being greater than the other.

    The Bible teaches that man has much greater accountability for his actions than maybe you may be aware of and that he is not to provoke his family.

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  22. Barb O –

    Thanks for that information. I knew it was probably a paraphrase of scripture. I think it is one thing for Paul to be telling Timothy to handle the truth carefully, and a different thing altogether to have one elder say about another elder, “He rightly divides the Word of God,” which is what I have heard most often. The second instance causes people to stop processing and simply believe what has just been preached. It means the opposite of being a Berean, in my opinion anyway, and is often used by abusive people to shut down conversation. It also hinders people from disagreeing with or questioning someone’s teaching.

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  23. @Kevin “You guys think Calvinist have a poster of Calvin on their wall or something. We’re just normal people,…”

    You sound like a television ad run by CAIR: “Muslims are just people.”

    Hitler was just a person too. So was Stalin. Doesn’t mean I would let any of them attend my church without first disavowing their demonic ideology.

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  25. Anyone else, too. It really is a good article about how Christianity is the best thing that ever happened to women.

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  27. Yes, Shannon, a good article. Lola, for more good articles, check out Christians for Biblical Equality for their Free Articles. http://www.cbeinternational.org

    There are some articles about women in the church and home on my website:
    http://www.ChurchExiters.com

    Here’s another series of articles about ‘the women thing’. This is the first one:
    The Word “Submission” in Context: Christ and the Greco-Roman Household Codes by Rachel Held Evans.
    http://rachelheldevans.com/mutuality-household-codes

    “This is the third post in our series, One In Christ: A Week of Mutuality, dedicated to discussing an egalitarian view of gender—including relevant biblical texts and practical applications. The goal is to show how scripture, tradition, reason, and experience all support a posture of equality toward women, one that favors mutuality rather than hierarchy, in the home, Church, and society.”

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  28. Add to that article that when Christianity was actually practiced, women were not required to whore around before marriage and show a guy that they can give the best %$ in the slight hope that just maybe he’ll stay with her for more than a week. Nor did men whore around prior to marriage, and that’s why women weren’t required to because men didn’t expected it but expected the opposite. Today, even in “Christian” circles, men teach their sons to treat women as disposable playthings, and women teach their daughters how to be the most fun disposable plaything to compete with the other short-term toys.

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  30. ”If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical.”

    “Is it Biblical if she agrees?”

    I can’t recall any character that spanked his wife even in the Old Testament. I would suggest that these Calvinists spank their wives due to repressed feelings of guilt they have for having cheated on their wives. They take their own guilt out on their victims. Certainly its not that they believe its Biblical, nor that the wife somehow “consents” to being spanked.

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  33. I must respond to this: I pity any woman who would be stupid enough to submit to a man that would spank her, and think it would be righteous to do so.

    They don’t submit because they’re stupid. They submit because they’re browbeaten. Calling them “stupid,” I’m afraid, simply adds insult to injury. Literally.

    Spiritual abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of intelligence. Sufferers and survivors need understanding.

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  34. They don’t submit because they’re stupid. They submit because they’re browbeaten. Calling them “stupid,” I’m afraid, simply adds insult to injury. Literally.

    Very good response, Kristen (krwordgazer). It needed a response. Thank you!

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  35. I think much of the submission also has to do with being eternally judged by the abuser whether being spanked or being spiritual abused.

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  36. krwordgazer, Excellent observation.

    These abuses are happening with so-called “Godly decree & approval”. Wanting to follow God is not wrong. What is wrong is abusing, controlling, demanding in God’s name. Submission without question is what these women are taught in churches. A woman can even sit in a mainstream church & come away thinking they just need to do a better job at submitting. Children, same thing. This topic is rarely discussed from the pulpit or anywhere in church. There is much resistance, unfortunately, from most pastoral staff.

    Jeff Crippen’s site & sermons are very helpful to women who think something may be wrong & are looking for real Biblical answers, IMO.

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  37. “I must respond to this: I pity any woman who would be stupid enough to submit to a man that would spank her, and think it would be righteous to do so.

    They don’t submit because they’re stupid. They submit because they’re browbeaten. Calling them “stupid,” I’m afraid, simply adds insult to injury. Literally.

    Spiritual abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of intelligence. Sufferers and survivors need understanding.”

    A big amen from here, krwordgazer !

    And if I may just add the seemingly obvious, but often– it would appear–overlooked fact that men are, in general, taller, stronger, & more muscular than women. Men are also definitely encouraged to be more athletic–especially in patriarchal circles.
    So here is this guy–with a weapon, and with his fists, and here is a woman who has been told over & over that she must–not should–MUST–submit to her husband, who most likely outweighs her, & can outfight her…..and she is maybe, just maybe going to
    be forced to submit–or end up as a homicide statistic.
    These ladies aren’t stupid: They’re scared, and they’ve been brainwashed. They are terrorized into submission.

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  38. A lot of the problem is more than anyone else, Calvinists insist on Hebrews 13:17, especially as its worded in the Geneva Bible:

    “Obey them that have the oversight of you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls….”

    …except that they don’t really watch for your souls. The Geneva guys even felt the need to repeat the verse basically in a note: “We must obey the warnings and admonitions of our Ministers and Elders, which watch for the salvation of the souls which are committed unto them.”

    Of course this is mistranslated. The word translated “obey” comes from a root meaning something to do with “persuade.” For which reason its variously translated “have confidence in” (NIV), “rely on” (Common English Bible),

    Gar doesn’t have to always be translated “for” but can be translated as “when” when it is necessary.

    Probably the best translation is something like “Be persuaded by those that have the oversight and submit when they are watching for your souls…”

    …because they don’t always really watch for our souls, do they? Sometimes they simply want to fleece the flock.

    But “Be persuaded” requires that they actually offer an argument, not just “I’m the authority; do as I tell you!” And “when they watch for your souls” requires that they are perceived as actually doing this. But Calvinism is just revamped Romanism: follow the priests even if he leads you straight to hell, because he is alter christus (i.e. another christ).

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  39. “They don’t submit because they’re stupid. They submit because they’re browbeaten. Calling them “stupid,” I’m afraid, simply adds insult to injury. Literally.

    Spiritual abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of intelligence. Sufferers and survivors need understanding.”

    “These abuses are happening with so-called “Godly decree & approval”. Wanting to follow God is not wrong. What is wrong is abusing, controlling, demanding in God’s name. Submission without question is what these women are taught in churches. A woman can even sit in a mainstream church & come away thinking they just need to do a better job at submitting.”

    – This is why I’m extremely leery of organized religion. Any type of organized religion, even the seemingly good and benign. Group dynamics is such that out of a desire to do the right thing, obey God, etc, individuals can believe and conform to wrong teachings, even otherwise smart people. Like the comment above says, “Spiritual abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of intelligence.”

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  41. Right, Ri Ri.

    And if you can convince someone the Bible says so, according to your interpretation, you can do basically ANYTHING.

    The million dollar question: Is someone’s Biblical interpretation correct?

    The answer: Well, what does Jesus have to say? Do loving action towards others and yourself. That’s your basis for decision-making. That’s my rule of thumb. What is loving yourself & others, then? The 10 commandments, doing right, helping widows & orphans, etc. The opposite of “just because I said so”.

    Biblical interpretation isn’t complex it’s really that simple.

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  43. a MOm (who seems to not be regular commenter A Mom), how do you know it is a lie? Were you with them 24/7? I can’t know, via the Internet, if Lindt speaks the truth, but I don’t believe things based on you saying it either.

    In fact, Lindt makes a more knowable assertion than you do. To know someone spanks, you could observe it happening once. To know he does not, you have to be with either him or the partner he allegedly spanked 24/7.

    “He looks like a decent person” is not evidence against spousal abuse – most abusers know how to look like decent people.

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  45. “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it … So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.” EPH 5:25-29 This is one of the scriptures that a married man should memorize.

    “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord … Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.” EPH 5:22-24 This is one of the scriptures a married woman should memorize.

    My job as a husband is to give of every aspect of my life for the betterment of my wife’s life. That means giving time, money, strength, support, encouragement, prayer, help, sacrifice, protection, nurturing, my last breath, etc. How do I know that’s my role? The Bible tells me that’s my job as a husband because that is how Christ loved the church.

    Once I have fully acccomplished all that God has directed me to do as a husband in a marriage is maybe when I should be concerned about what my wife is supposed to be memorizing in scripture. However, that has to with her walk with the Lord, so I can probably spend time studying how to be a better father or employer, etc.

    The day will come when I stand before the Lord and give an accounting of MY life, not my wife’s life. He will judge me based on the Bible. A wise man would know what parts of the Bible refer to his role in a marriage and seek to fulfill them.

    If some “man” said that he should spank his wife and his wife happened to be my daughter, I and my sons would quickly help him to understand his false teaching and I would guarantee, after searching the scriptures and finding no verse teaching that lie, that he would see the error of his ways and never consider it again.

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  47. ” Well, what does Jesus have to say? Do loving action towards others and yourself. That’s your basis for decision-making. That’s my rule of thumb. What is loving yourself & others, then? The 10 commandments, doing right, helping widows & orphans, etc”

    What about single moms – divorced and those who never had husbands? Should Christians help them too, i mean financially/materially?

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  48. A few years ago someone (a Calvanist) who has a well known website (he had become my “Pastor” to me when I left my abusive church), told me that since my daughter was involved with a Catholic young man, he was going to pray for this relationship to break up. I told him not to do that. This young man is more thoughtful, more kind, more respectful and more godly than most of the men I knew from Church/Christian school. Over the last few years, he has openly received a Bible and other materials I give him.
    I was always taught at my old CC “not be be unequally yoked” and that we should NEVER let our kids date anyone outside evangelical church model.
    Well, I trust God’s plan for my daughter and this young man. It is a long distance relationship and they don’t see one another much, but I believe God is going to bless my daughter, and he is in complete control. He knows her love for Him, and also has a plan for this young man.
    It still bugs me just thinking about it.

    What does everyone think about not attending your daughters wedding because she was marrying a non-believer?
    I know another couple in ministry who did this.
    I understand not wanted to pay for a wedding uniting your daughter who professes Christ to one who may not have made that confession…but at the time their daughter was living with this man….so they believed their daughter was righteous because as a child she made a profession?

    These kinds f scenario’s…still tough to sort out.

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  49. PS—when your child is over 18 there is really little hold you have over them. By law they don’t even have to involve you in their medical treatment, etc. When you put the control in God’s hands, which really is the Calvin model, our actions never thwart his plans. So to pray for a relationship to end…does that really fit into their theology?

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  50. “What does everyone think about not attending your daughters wedding because she was marrying a non-believer?”

    I think you might say you wouldn’t, but you will end up attending. The only “marriage” of their kids I think a sane parent would ever refuse to go to is a gay one. Other than that, you’d just be destroying your relationship with your kids over nothing. And if you are an “Evangelical” (whatever that means) you supposedly believe in justification by faith alone and OSAS and all that, right? So you technically can’t believe that she’s losing her salvation for marrying a Catholic, so what is the deal? Its nothing but worrying about the tyranny of what the tyrannical overlords will say about you if you go to the wedding. Which is more important to you, your daughter, or what some jackasses you don’t even really like think about you? That’s how you have to look at it.

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  51. “What does everyone think about not attending your daughters wedding because she was marrying a non-believer?”

    Since when are Catholics (the original Western Church) “non-believers”?

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  52. “He looks like a decent person” is not evidence against spousal abuse – most abusers know how to look like decent people.

    Abusers, pedophiles, and sociopaths are masters at camouflaging what they are. If they weren’t, they’d have been exposed and caught long ago.

    Nobody is as decent as a sociopath, as concerned as a sociopath, as compassionate as a sociopath, as polite as a sociopath, as sincere as a sociopath. Until the instant you have outlived your usefulness.

    “For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an angel of light.”

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  53. f some “man” said that he should spank his wife and his wife happened to be my daughter, I and my sons would quickly help him to understand his false teaching and I would guarantee, after searching the scriptures and finding no verse teaching that lie, that he would see the error of his ways and never consider it again.
    To A Christian Father/Husband:
    Wild cheering & clapping for this your post coming from here.
    You, sir, are the kind of Christian gentleman that we need more of. Thank you!!!

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  54. Since when are Catholics (the original Western Church) “non-believers”?
    HUGs, my mother used to say, “If Catholics aren’t Christian, then what are they? Hindus, for pete’s sake?”.

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  56. Troy56, I went to that link and noticed Voddie Baucham was the only Black speaker there amongst 8 other White speakers. And of course there was no female speaker at all. I wonder how he feels always being the token black guy, and if he’s experience racism amongst these folks?

    Like

  57. RiRi,

    Interesting Point.

    What would interest me more however is the substance and quality of the speaker and not the color of his or her skin.

    Racism unfortunately is reality. Being on the receiving end of racism myself for 33 years I can identify with your remark and I shouldn’t. How many white speakers dominate the floor among a gathering of primarily African Americans? Not to often and usually are a guest speaker.

    Racism is rampant everywhere even in Churches and that is sad

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Pingback: The Superiority Complex. | Roll to Disbelieve

  59. @zooey111:

    Since when are Catholics (the original Western Church) “non-believers”?

    Since the battle lines were set in stone during the Reformation Wars some 500 years ago. “NO POPERY!”

    Like

  61. @eric fehrman, You should be ashamed of yourself for not making it clear who you are accusing of slander. An open-ended accusation of slander like that is slander itself! You just slandered everyone who ever commented in this mile-long comment box. Repent!

    Like

  63. Yes it is Julie, because YOU did not witness it first hand. You are all to quick to promote an over-the-top, outrageous claim, one you already admitted you can’t possibly prove, from only one source. This guilty until proven innocent method is not Christian or biblical. You may pretend the ends justify the means but this behavior is disgusting.

    Like

  64. Pingback: Part VI: The Corruption of the Bible & Christianity | The Pink Flamingo

  65. Eric,

    How many witnesses does it take before you can pay attention to or publicly discuss wrongdoing that you yourself didn’t experience or witness first hand? Or do you have to be particularly close to a person to report something — or does this make it worse?

    Please tell me how some of this fleshes out. My dear friend started reading Michael Pearl, and after striking her child 100 times, she called me crying, concerned that if she continued, she would harm her child. I told her that if she didn’t stop, as a mandated reporter to the court because I am a nurse, I would have to call the authorities (after she agreed to stop and we talked through a plan of response). Praise God — she stopped. But I did not actually witness what she did. She may have been exaggerating or lying. In fact, the whole event was so traumatic for her, she doesn’t remember large portions of it now.

    Maybe I need to resign from nursing because I am required by the nurse practice act to report even suspected child abuse (bruises, certain types of suspicious injuries, etc.)?

    This same friend of mine responded to a call from a friend of ours when her raging husband took her car keys, her wallet, and all of the telephones away from her, then had her sons tackle her. At the instruction of the father, the twelve year old wrapped his arm over her face and mouth while the fourteen year old tried to pin her on the ground. She broke free and ran to the neighbors and called my friend. (Her husband looks like a linebacker, and they lived much closer to her than I did.) I confronted the church leadership about this because they said that they had no evidence that any of this happened, and then the church reported her to CPS and to the police, falsely claiming that she was a danger to herself. I went with her to the ER for the psych evaluation and I sat with her at CPS, because I believed that she’d done nothing wrong. I wasn’t there. My friend and her husband were not there to see the boys take away the phone, the wallet, and the keys. I guess that I’m in violation of God’s law for mentioning this event on the internet, and my friends were probably wrong to go rescue my friend?

    I’ve had individuals contact me about how the severe beatings they took as a child have warped their enjoyment of sex, so they have incorporated pain and punishment into their sex lives. I know several individuals in the IFB who reported that their church called for their public spanking as an adult, and that they claim that their pastors taught that husbands should spank their wives. There are also some old IFB published articles that recommend wife spanking. There are websites that talk at great length about the practice of physical discipline of wives, and they claim Hebrews 12 as a proof text. It would not shock me one bit if this were recommended in a well-known quiverfull minister’s church.

    Given that the people who practice and teach these things deny it when questioned, and given Sproul’s track record (and those of whom he associates), I don’t think that it is completely unthinkable. This is also a man who called his wife “barren” after she’d already born him many children. You cannot imagine my disappointment upon learning all of these things. I used to be a Sproul supporter.

    Do you also ascribe to the teachings of Bill Gothard?

    http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/silencing-the-lambs-taking-up-offenses/

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  66. eric fehrman,

    You come here blaming and shaming, interceding on behalf of abusers. I wonder why.

    Are you a pastor or other person in a position of authority and power that needs to be protected?

    Are you an adherent of Biblical (so called) patriarchy, or even complementarianism, so that your claimed position of dominance over his wife is threatened by people who would come to the aid of women who are abused by men?

    Has your identity somehow become wrapped up in being identified with “heroes” of the faith whose destructive teachings and practices come under attack here?

    Why is it, exactly, that you come here abusively blaming and shaming, aligning yourself with men who abuse women?

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  67. Cindy, those are all interesting stories but they have nothing to do with whats going on here, Julie very publicly slandered a man and his dead wife and then finished it with “I have no way of validating the comments above”. I have no clue what RC Sproul Jr. sins are, but the problem is, neither does Julie! I have no problem confronting sin and offering biblical rebuke when warranted but you cannot assume someone is guilty just because some anonymous poster say so in a comment thread. Thats ridiculous!

    Gary, I like that if I am against slander, prejudgment, and assuming guilt then I must be for abusing women. You know nothing about me, or my motives. All you know is that I objected to a blog post because Julie made an outrageous claim about someone she does not know, about his deceased wife who cannot defend herself, and then admitted she had no evidence at all. That is slander at worst and simply unkind and unwise at best. And your response?… to immediately impugn the motives and try to suggest something nefarious about the one who objects to it?

    Whatever, no wonder the church is in so much trouble. No one wants to think and act biblically and people only want to defend their internet “heroes” instead of obeying Jesus.

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  68. eric,

    I notice you are not answering my questions. Why not? While silence cannot be used against you in a U.S. criminal prosecution, in the real world your silence may be construed as evidence of guilt, as evidence that you have some sort of motive you would like to keep hidden. Not accusing you of anything here. Just making you aware how you are coming across.

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  69. Eric – – I referenced 2 comments which were already public and also connected with one conversation I had with a witness who had been at Sproul’s house AND witness to teachings. I have this person’s name/telephone number. I know his business, was able to see him in a video online to verify his voice with the voice I heard on the phone. I think I did due diligence to make sure this person was not a fraud. Why did this person contact me? To tell me if I hear of stories of wife spanking, to not be quick to dismiss them because in his circles, it is not uncommon.

    If you look at the context of the post – -it is far more than Sproul – – it is about the climate of Patriarchy that can be fertile ground to allow uncovered abuse to go on. We are now hearing story after story of abuse and the common denominator is Patriarchy (Doug Phillips, SGM, Bill Gothard, etc)

    All that said – – why do you suppose Sproul will not issue a position statement on wife spanking as requested?

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  70. Gary,

    I saw nothing in your post to answer. I in no way suggested that…
    * I am a pastor, etc.
    * I am an adherent of patriarchy
    * My identity is wrapped up in a “hero”
    * I align myself with men who abuse women

    I did not suggest ANY of these things. Why you would assume them has more to due with your need to find guilt in people you know nothing about than me. Now my lack of answers to your bizzarre questions prove my guilt. I’m pretty sure that If I disagree with you, no matter what, I am going to be a “guilty women abuser”

    For the record, although I know it wont count for anything, I am NOT a proponent of patriarchy, I am NOT a proponent of wife spanking or abuse of anyone answhere for that matter, I am NOT a fan of Sproul, or Gothard, or Phillips, or anyone else on your guilt by association list.

    What I am against is slandering a person and his deceased wife without any evidence. Its just plain wrong.

    Like

  71. So I am defending an internet hero, am I? Thanks for pointing that out.

    I thought that I was demonstrating that what you seem to think is a very black and white decision is actually very complicated — anything but black and white. And the number of outrageous teachings and practices that have been generated by Sproul and his associates make that even more complicated.

    Many of us have lived in these cultures of abuse, and I can give many personal accounts that attest to what this is like. I attended a church that wasn’t even that devoted to quiverfull ideology, and the misogynous practices and attitudes behind the scenes were horrible. From experience, many of us have lived through the secret counsel meetings and then denials of what was said and done in those meetings. Sproul has already earned a reputation for this (though I didn’t witness this first hand about him, so I might be in error for alluding to it), as does his pal Phillips. (I know many more first hand accounts of Phillips ill behavior, but most people are so fearful of him and have already paid a heavy personal toll because of him that they won’t come forward publicly. It is not worth it. And I have a hard drive full of documentation, but many of those accounts are not mine to tell.)

    If these were isolated comments in a vacuum, I think that there would be more weight to your argument. Perhaps there was a better way to broach the topic, and that should definitely be explored, for it would be of great benefit to many as an example of how to handle these types of matters. But these claims do not appear in a vacuum against an upright history of that is free of controversy, error, and abuse. I think that you’re glossing over that.

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  72. Julie,

    You keep mentioning this ONE witness. Having ONE witness is not doing your due diligence. The fact that this one witness choosing to contact A BLOG instead of the COPS should suggest something as to how credible this person is. BUT even if he is SUPER credible… why did your blog not center on this persons killer eye witness testimony?… Why is the bulk of your article anonymous commentators from another site. I dont know what your motives are and I dont want to guess. But this is just slander plain and simply. And if untrue you are spreading lies and making terrible assertions about a person you have never taking the time to meet and slandering a women who is not alive to defend herself. That is aweful no matter who you are.

    You say… “why do you suppose Sproul will not issue a position statement on wife spanking as requested?”

    This is ridiculous. So anytime Julie Anne Smiths demands someone produce a position statement they must or else THEY ARE GUILTY!

    Julie, you have been accused of slander and lies on multiple occasions but I dont see any official “position statement” on your webiste about slander, lying, or making false judgments? Why is that Julie? Why wont you publicly condemn slander? No statement – there you go, PROOF POSITIVE you are clearly lying.

    See how ridiculous that is? If you dont like having it done to you, you should do it to someone else.

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  73. eric complains, “no matter what, I am going to be a “guilty women abuser”

    But eric started out with this abusively slanderous, guilt tripping, shame dumping, dripping-with-contemptuousness indictment: “This kind of slander is sickening. You should be ashamed of yourself.” From his comment of February 25, 2014 @ 11:00 PM it appears that this was directed at Julie Anne.

    Well, eric, you have in my opinion abused at least one women right here on this blog thread.

    Which leads me to more questions, eric. Does it make you feel good to have pointed out Julie Anne’s supposed fault? Does it make you feel morally superior, like a Godly man?

    Really, eric, you’re too funny.

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  74. Eric,
    I know of one occasion where Julie Anne discovered that she had inadvertently made a statement that was not true. She apologized and corrected.

    You throw around words like slander, lying, etc., without understanding the history of Julie Anne, this blog, or the circumstances. She works very hard to check out the sources of what she learns, determine if they are credible (other than being some high muckety-muck in religious circles), and when she publishes things, includes a disclaimer regarding the limitations on her knowledge.

    What right do you have to attack her?

    Like

  75. Then, while I’m drafting my previous comment, eric posts this regarding Julie Anne: “there you go, PROOF POSITIVE you are clearly lying.”

    eric, you aren’t putting yourself in a very good light. I suggest that you take a look at Romans 2:1.

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  76. why did your blog not center on this persons killer eye witness testimony?… Why is the bulk of your article anonymous commentators from another site. I dont know what your motives are and I dont want to guess.

    Well, other people seemed to see it pretty clearly, I’m not sure what’s is making it difficult for you, Eric. The purpose of the article was to point out the Christian Patriarchy’s dark secret of wife spanking.

    Like

  77. Oh no, I’m not in Gary’s “good light” whatever will I do. you dont disappoint Gary. I answered your questions and guess what, I still get called a women abuser. Wow, that was a surprise (not).

    I called what Julie did in this article slander, sickening, and shameful because thats exactly what it is. Thats not abuse Gary thats just the truth. When you malign someones reputation and then say “I have no way of validating the comments above” – what else do you call it?

    Are you seriously quoting Romans 2:1? After making an outrageous claim that a man is spanking his wife, with no proof, then demanding he is guilty because he wont write a position paper on it… this is the article you are defending, but I am the one “judging”?

    Whatever.

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  78. Julie, I guess I’m just thick headed. I read the article a couple times but didnt see it. Can you tell me in what paragraph is the eye witness testimony of your ONE verified, vetted witness where he personally observed Sproul spanking his wife?

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  79. Eric,

    Can you answer a direct question, Eric?  The question is:

    IS there a teaching in the religious reform movement of wife spanking?  Yes, or No?

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  80. Eric: The primary issue you are making of this is Sproul spanking his own wife. That is not my primary issue.

    The primary issue I am making is there are TEACHINGS within Patriarchy groups that men have the authority to discipline their wives by spanking. This is what what was confirmed by the witness who contacted me (as well as a personal recollection of an incident at the Sproul’s home very similar to the other 2 comments).

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  81. Ed,

    I’m not reformed so I dont know. I’m not aware of one. I read fairly extensively, even a fair amount of puritans and I’ve NEVER read teaching from any evangelical group promoting wife spanking.

    //eric

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  82. Ed:

    Regarding this wife spanking teaching: the person I spoke to said you will never find anything like this written. It is taught at “heads of households” meetings, obviously with no women present.

    BTW, when we were visiting Household of Faith – – a family-integrated church model similar to Doug Phillips, they had heads of households meetings (just as Phillips did at his church, Boerne Christian Assembly). They would pass along information only for the men to hear and tell them what they were allowed to tell the wives.

    Some churches did not allow women voting rights if they were church members because they deemed that the woman would always be in agreement with her “head.”

    This is the climate of Patriarchy.

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  84. Eric,

    It is a problem within the circles within which Sproul moves. And Sproul’s reputation is not good. He himself has advanced ideas that I consider unbiblical and misogynous. He lives in the fringe of the fringe and borders on the edge of another fringe group within the reformed Christian homeschooling circles and was defrocked by a homeschooling oriented denomination (homeschooling listed as one of five of their primary beliefs at their inception). He so strongly recommended “The Way Home” that my husband bought a copy and had me read it. (The social Darwinism, xenophobia, misogyny, and propaganda mingled with just a big of truth was staggering in that book.)

    His wife’s death is tragic, and I wept when I heard that she had breast cancer as well as when I read that he referred to her as “barren.” The fact that this claim does involve his wife is sad, but because of the things that Sproul has advocated it is not that big of a stretch to consider that this may have been a practice in his congregation or what sounded much like his own version of Lancaster’s Rivendell.

    What, in your opinion, is the best way to handle matters when you learn of reports of behaviors that are not out of character for a person’s belief system and about a person who is not particularly known for his honesty or accountability? If he had been ordained by the PCA after the RPCGA defrocked him, I might also be more inclined to believe this. But he didn’t go to the PCA. He went to Wilson’s CREC that Wilson put together because he all but was defrocked by the RPCUS.

    It’s not that much of a black and white call because of this history and Sproul’s associations.

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  85. Eric– if you’re not Reformed, do mind sharing your inclination? I notice your Twitter feed has quotes and retweets from Piper, Grudem, Keller, Packer, Sproul Sr, Spurgeon, Dever, Beeke, Lawson, D. Wilson etc. I realize some of those are not Reformed according to a strict definition– maybe Tulipy Baptists– but consider themselves Reformed.

    Like

  86. Julie,

    Sproul’s name is the one in bold type as the first thing you read when clicking on this article. Sproul is the one you tweeted about/to. Sproul is the one you are demanding a “position statement from”. Sproul is the one being discussed in the anonymous comments you cut and pasted. Those are all things YOU did before my first comment. So *I* am not the one making Sproul a key issue, *you* did.

    You used Sprouls name, tweeted to Sproul, and pasted comments about Sproul… I assume to draw more attention to the article? When pressed your evidence was “then why doesnt he write a position paper”… when pressed more you said you had a vetted, verifiable, personally interviewed trustworthy witness,… when pressed why dont we hear more from this reliable witness you say “everyone else got the point”… when pressed more, now the issue “isn’t really about Sproul”.

    If you wanted to write a generic article about what happens in the lunatic fringe of the patriarchy movement that would have been easy to do, and hearsay testimony may have been sufficient. But you chose to malign a specific person. And doing that without real evidence is just Gossip (Prov 18:13) at best and slander.at worst and in either case, just plain sinful.

    I would hope if you really have some kind of first hand evidence that you would at least have more than one before bring a public charge (1Tim 5:19). I would hope your goal would be repentance and restoration (Gal 6:1, Jam 5:19). If you really were concerned with Sproul and those he affects I would suspect you would work through the local church as the instrument God has ordained to rightly handle a sinning brother (Matt 18:15-17, 1Cor 5:1-13), not a blog. Or the God ordained government to punish crimes (Rom 13:4) not a blog. Then if there REALLY is a verifiable sin/crime I would think either one of those institutions would be much better suited to the situation.

    If not, then you are merely causing division and slander for division and slanders sake. And I would hope that is not your goal. (Tit 3:10-11, Rom 16:17)

    Like

  87. Dave,

    I dont’ know what “R U Q” is… so whatever it is, I guess I’m not?

    My “persuasion” is independent baptist, although I would prefer simply “bible believing / Christ follower”. People tend to like to lump people into tribes so if its helpful to you I’m probably in the John MacArthur/Mark Dever tribe.

    I’m just trying to be honest here and comment on something that I thought was awful. I’ve used my real name, not anonymous pseudonym. I just wouldnt want to be condemned as doing something terrible by someone then have them simply say “I have no way of validating the comments above” . Thats terrible. Julie made some radical claims, it should include some radical evidence. I dont think anyone here would like that. And if we wouldnt like it dont TO us, it shouldnt be done BY us.

    Like

  88. Eric,

    The tweet was sent solely because of Selbrede indicating that there was unresolved stuff between us. That was an old article that I had no intention of bringing up. If you notice my original tweet to Sproul yesterday, I did not even mention the words “wife spanking,” but spoke in general terms about the article. It was only after his response that I asked him directly.

    As far as working through local church – – it does no good when they are yes men, or part of a system of abuse. Look at SGM. Look at Doug Phillips. Look at Bob Jones. Look at Bill Gothard.

    If you read my blog for any length of time, I always encourage people to notify authorities FIRST about abuse, even before notifying pastors.

    Like

  89. Dave A A asks eric, “R U Q?”

    Good question. If eric isn’t Q the case could be made that we have something of a doppelgänger situation on our hands here.

    Like

  91. I am not suspicious of Eric being Q. Eric came from his own IP, his own name, etc. I think he’s legitimately Eric. But stranger things have happened on blogs before as we know.

    Like

  92. So Julie,

    After having real, verifiable eye witness testimony from 2 or 3 witnesses that you personally vetted (like you said in your “due diligence” comment earlier”)… you personally approached Sprouls Church and/or denomination and found them full of “yes men”?

    Like

  93. Julie,

    You dont get to publicise terrible, aweful comments about a person and their deceased wife on YOUR blog, under YOUR name, claim you did YOUR due diligence and vetted the testimony, tweet it, demand a position paper, then bow out and say “I didnt make the claims”. You publicized them, you spread them. If they are true then produce your eyewitness testimony to the proper authorities. If you dont have proof you shouldnt be slandering someone. Its really that simple.

    PS: Would someone like to cluie me in on what “Q” is?

    Like

  94. Nope, Eric, my point was not to address Sproul’s church as I am not in Sproul’s church and that would do no good. However, my approach was to warn people of a disturbing teaching among some Patriarchal circles of which Sproul is part of. These wife-spanking teachings are not found at just one church, so it would not do any good to go to specifically one church.

    It’s important to note that we spend a lot of time here discussing disturbing trends and patterns. Calling out one person would do little good, but identifying the types of groups that promote wife spanking is much more helpful in educating people on what to look for.

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  95. Eric,

    You clearly know little to nothing about the CREC, the RPCGA, and the RPCUS and the history of Sproul and Wilson.

    The RPCUS is not comprised of “yes men” which is why they took Wilson and others to task on the doctrinal problems with Federal Vision (deemed by three or four denominations to be false teaching).

    The RPCGA is questionable, the group that defrocked Sproul. They used to be forthcoming with information about dangerous pastors, but they started to clam up a few years ago. And I consider them to largely be an affinity group set up around homeschooling, as their old website use to indicate. Non-homeschoolers aren’t turned away from their churches, but they don’t feel welcome nor do they have much of a place in the life of those congregations in my experience. I don’t know if that makes them yes men or not.

    The CREC was founded by Doug Wilson who was run out of the RPCUS. Wilson went and just set up his own ordaining body that has been busy cranking out a wide variety of arrogance, doctrinal error, fringe ideas, and all sorts of other related stuff. That is where Sproul went to get ordained when he was tossed out by the RPCGA.

    I’ve approached the RPCGA without (response concerning other matters). They don’t deal with the likes of me. And the CREC doesn’t really pay attention to women, and I’d probably be told to get into the kitchen to wash some dishes instead. Or I’d be asked if I was giving my husband enough sex. After all, dirty dishes are grounds for Biblical divorce in the CREC.

    I think that your ignorance is showing a bit.

    Like

  96. But then, it depends on a person’s level of accountability, too. The original Bob Jones didn’t qualify to be ordained under the Methodist group he participated with, though he told them that he had a call on his life to preach. He hadn’t been to seminary and was unwilling to go through the process. So he set up Bob Jones U so that he could just ordain himself.

    Maybe that’s seen as proper vetting and accountability these days. I don’t know.

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  97. Eric,

    I disagree. I held onto the information for nearly a year before ever publishing it. When the other 2 commenters came out, it was clear to me that this is not something that is known, but is trying to stay under wraps.

    I can understand why you feel uncomfortable about it and want to defend Sproul. But I’m also struck that while you are defending one man, you see to show little concern that there are possibly many women who are being beaten/spanked by their husbands who believe it is their Biblical right as Patriarchal husbands to “discipline” them.

    Frankly, I’m a little tired of defending Patriarchs. Look where it got us with Gothard and Phillips. It’s time to knock Patriarchy down and start treating women with dignity and respect, not as objects to own and rule over.

    Like

  99. Julie Anne,

    Well, it may be a secret society thing amongst the men, but if you Google Calvinism “wife spanking”, definitely quotation marks around “wife spanking”, you will find things to read.  I don’t have time to delve into it, but my point was not so much to find it, but for Eric to acknowledge that he doesn’t know, thereby showing his ignorance.  It’s in google, that Calvinism teaches it.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  100. I dont happen to believe that falsly accusing people without evidence makes you a great defender of women. I can despise gossip and slander AND also despise men that abuse women. They are not mutually exclusive.

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  101. Calvinism does NOT teach wife spanking. That is a ridiculous claim. Some of the most tender and caring husbands I know, and the staunchest defenders of cherishing women are life long calvinist and teach at calvinist universities. That claim doesnt even deserve a response. Just because you can find “calvinism” and “wife spanking” in the far fringe of google does not make it a real connection. Thats like saying google “aminianism” and “child abuse”… see its on google, Arminianism leads to child abuse. Thats just plain dumb.

    Like

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