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As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.
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Warning: this is a heavy and disturbing article.
As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations. For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.
I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.
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But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?
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One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking. The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal. If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical. Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical. Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?
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As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc. What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.
One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.
I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.
Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses. Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew. This is going on elsewhere.
We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.
Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.
I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.
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Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm
“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.
I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?
Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm
I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.
Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.
Ghirard Says:
December 30, 2013 at 11:08 am
Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.
Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced. We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:
After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.
Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:
December 30, 2013 at 12:27 pm
It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.
JPGR Says:
December 28, 2013 at 8:21 am
I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.
My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?
Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….
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I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement. Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening. So what is a godly response to ungodliness?
Exposure!
Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.
Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.
Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?
Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?
She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.
These women need our prayers and our help. We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty. We have voices and must speak up for them.
photo credit: bark via photopin cc
Updated note: Slight modification of title and removed key words See note in comments.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Exactly – – Jesus wept. I am drawn to a guy who has enough manhood to express his feelings – even sad ones – by weeping. Weeping is not about gender. Good grief. Do we discount Jesus as a man because he wept? Wow, some of these guys are nuts.
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Lydia, that is good because that is exactly what Jesus did. His focus was “saving the lost”; He died for all so that they would believe and be redeemed. Our focus should be the outpouring of His love to a dying world- this is kingdom focused.
Ever since I became FREE from the bondage of “orthodoxy” (meaning anything man devised up his own sleeve) I was more able to FREELY be and give (and I am still on the learning curve as I get the hang of it; ridding myself of preconceived ideas of false religion).
The more I was able to give up the focus on “doctrinal performance” and realize how simple Jesus wanted us to be- get out and win people with His love. This is just living it out and not worrying about what “doctrine am I”. Frankly Jesus ain’t going to ask you “what you were”; it will be however “did you love me”? “Did you love me” is all about the fruits of the Spirit. Actually, where do we ever hear that preached- the fruits of the Spirit?
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Mod note: I moved this comment here: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/02/its-calvinism-free-for-all-off-the-top-of-your-head-part-2/#comment-75073
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It is bondage – – can you imagine at Doug Phillips’ church, the fathers distribute Communion among family members and determine if each member is worthy of receiving it. He gets to play spiritual judge. (And if dad isn’t there, the responsibility is transferred to son – – imagine that one!!) This brand of Patriarchy own’s a wife’s faith. That is wrong. The Bible says that it was by Sarah’s faith that she conceived. It had nothing to do with Abraham. Women own their own faith, period.
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Mod note: The comment that was here was moved to the Calvin debate thread: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/02/its-calvinism-free-for-all-off-the-top-of-your-head-part-2/#comment-75069
Please post Calvin debate discussion at the Calvin debate thread. Thanks!
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“The one thing I hate, though, is control- despise it!! So if I see any kind of doctrine or theology espousing it, you betcha your bottom dollar I will stick up for freedom!”
AMEN brother! AMEN!!!
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Kevin said,
I thought it was the indwelling Holy Spirit’s job to sanctify the believer, not the believer’s jot to sanctify him- or her- self?
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BTW, someone far up thread made some kind of comment implying that one has to be a Calvinist to believe that God is sovereign. That is false.
All the years I was a Christian, I was never a Calvinist, but I believed God is sovereign.
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“what is the philosophy behind it? What belief is truly being enforced? ”
Lydia responded:
“Power and control over others. Where does that come from? The doctrinal belief that God has ordained certain people to be over others. For some that is pastor/elder/male.”
Yes!! Yes, this is the heart of the problem. Once the ideas, “I am entitled” enters your mind & heart, you are in the same mindset as Lucifer, before/during/immediately-after he revolted.
Once you begin to say “thank God I am not as others”, you are no longer doing the works of the Saviour, you are following “your father, the devil”……just as Christ warned us.
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“So now the husband basically becomes the wife’s version of Jesus?”
Except, who can even begin to imagine Jesus spanking anybody?
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I pity any woman who would be stupid enough to submit to a man that would spank her, and think it would be righteous to do so.
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“– – can you imagine at Doug Phillips’ church, the fathers distribute Communion among family members and determine if each member is worthy of receiving it.”
Actually I was singing on the worship team of a church and a daughter of one of the men serving communion was seated not far from me. I happened to know that the daughter (in here early 20’s) had not been walking with the Lord, and yet during the worship and I noticed that she sang unto the Lord and looked very sincere to me. When the communion elements were passed around, by her father, she started to take the bread and he refused her! I couldn’t believe it! My husband (the worship leader) and I both saw this tragedy and were appalled! The look of hurt and anger on that poor young woman’s face was so very upsetting. After the service my husband spoke to the pastor about it and asked him to speak to the father. As far as I know, the young woman (who does not live in the same city) has not returned to church. This is what happens when people think it is “their” righteousness, outside of anything but God’s grace, that makes them “worthy” of receiving communion and be in a right standing before God.
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I should have mentioned that this church has absolutely nothing to do with Doug Phillips and the pastor was grieved over what had happened and did speak to the father about it.
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Jule Anne said,
In the last few months, I’ve read a book or two about spousal abuse.
I think the author of one book is a Non Christian, but his book is about the topic in general, so he talks about all sorts of abusers, including Non Christian, Christian, Islamic, etc.
Men who control and abuse their wives who happen to be religious will just use the religious views / teachings (usually having to distort them) to justify the abuse.
I learned from reading books about this that one common trait all abusive / controlling men have is a big sense of entitlement.
They view their wives (or girlfriends) as their property to exploit and use, they expect their wife/GF to meet all their needs (to be a maid, cook, be a sex-bot). Abusers do not view their wives/GFs as humans with their own needs, feelings, boundaries.
I said either on this blog, or on TWW, that in one book I read on a similar topic, the female co-author (who works as a psychologist or therapist of some sort) says she notices the only Christian men who quote the “wife submit” type verses at her when they complain about their wives are the ABUSIVE ones.
She said that in the cases of all the other married Christian couples she has ever counseled, the ones where the husbands are not abusive, that the husbands do NOT quote those verses, they do not claim male headship over their wives.
And lastly, this hits on one of my pet peeves with Christianity in general that Julie Anne sort of touched on in regards to abused women (being told to just go back home and pray for their spouses): this American Christian tendency to dismiss the hurt, grief and pain, of hurting Christians, whatever they may be going through.
Instead of actually doing something to help you during your crisis and pain, many well meaning, but ultimately insensitive Christian weenies, will tell you stuff like, “Just pray more,” “Trust Jesus,” – nothing that is actually helpful.
Lots of Christians I’ve bumped in to, and I have seen others do this to other people on the internet, is they expect you to solider on. Just suck up the pain.
The attitude conveyed is, don’t expect or ask for emotional, spiritual, or practical support from anyone, and if you do, you are supposedly weak/ selfish/ flawed.
Actually experiencing pain and hurt and seeking relief/ help is referred to as “having a pity party” and is deemed sinful. You’re just supposed to suck it up and read your Bible daily alone.
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trust4himonly said
I’ve heard preachers admit this on TV shows and blogs.
Preachers say if your preacher keeps harping on topic X, there is a good chance he himself struggles in his life with X.
Mark Driscoll admitted in some video, book, or blog awhile back the reason he harped on sex and beat up on women for months and months during sermons at his church years ago is that he was sexually frustrated… he didn’t feel his wife was performing as often or in the way he wanted, and in the meantime, he was having to pastorally counsel young married couples who told him of all their sexual exploits, and their exploits sounded great to him.
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Right – yet in Scripture, you see God making provision for women and children by allowing divorce because of the harding of the heart. We know that scripture expresses God’s concern for the weak and oppressed, yet the church fails to step up to the plate and deal with that topic.
I’m struck by church leaders who wave the banner of helping the sick – the physically sick – – those who may be Christians and are suffering debilitating illness/disease, yet in their midst of the church are families torn apart by abuse: emotional and spiritual abuse – – and there is no place for them to turn. Wives and children are abandoned by church leaders. Christian leaders do not get involved in those cases because it’s too messy.
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“or in the way he wanted” – – = could that be why he wrote the marriage book in which he discussed a certain way of having sex that some view as risqué?
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Julie Anne said,
Yes, I’ve noticed that too.
There is a strange habit of Christians to help only certain types of people, ones they consider worthy or pitiful enough for help, rather than anyone and everyone who needs help.
Some churches are very good about praying for visitors or members who have physical illnesses, for example, but will not pray for people struggling with anxiety, depression, or some other mental health problem.
Some churches love to maintain food pantries to feed the hungry in their towns (which is good), but those same churches will not be terribly supportive of a member of theirs who is undergoing some sort of relationship problem (it may be spousal abuse).
Unmarried adults are given little to no consideration by churches, even churches that beat their chests in pride over helping the homeless or domestic abuse shelters.
(And, those churches that are into female submission, who require a son or father to administer the wafer during communion: granted my dad is still alive, but one day he will die. I’ve never married, never had children.
Not that I believe the Bible teaches a woman needs or is under male headship, but I’ve noticed that churches who believe this stuff seldom acknowledge single and childless women among them.)
I was criticized and put down by one older church lady at one church I went to, when I confided in her over the pain I was in over my mother’s death… but this same lady would get weepy and choked up when discussing her once a month trip to help serve abused ladies at the local abuse shelter.
I have a hard time reconciling how some Christians will show compassion and offer aid to ‘Group 1’ but tell ‘Group 2’ to go take a hike.
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I want to make this comment:
Not to bring of Calvinism…but I am a Calvinist, as everyone knows and the first time I had any exposure to this type behavior was from a new couple that started coming to our church. By all accounts, he was not a calvinist but his wife was. Well, after a few months, it became apparent that he was acting in an abusive way towards his wife. When our leaders found out they were appalled. They called him in and he would not repent or anything. And everyone in the church was horrified by his behavior. He no longer comes to the church but his wife does and we help her financially and everything. They are no longer together.
But, I write this to demonstrate that a Calvinist church that has been around for over 30 years, had never experienced anything like this or even knew about this type of thing. Our Pastor was completely shocked and appalled at what he learned and what he had to research regarding this issue.
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I’ll add another story from an unrelated Calvinistic church. From what I saw there, there was a man verbally and physically abusing his wife and kids (and he was also a Patriarchist). One of this guys’s kids told the pastors what was going on. The two 2 Calvinistic pastors rebuked him privately, then publically. Since the guy didn’t repent or admit any wrong doing and since he started threatening physical harm to his family and the pastors, they ended up driving to his house and helping his wife and kids get out of their safely and I believe they called the police to intervene as well.
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We should expect this kind of response from all humans, Christians and non-Christian alike, should we not? I think all humans have a responsibility to defend the defenseless. Christians should lead the way, however, it seems unbelievers have a better handle on a lot of this.
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Kevin/Seth,
“We are missing each other, I think.
The question for me isn’t is whether spiritual abuse can happen in any denomination or religion. It does. The REAL question is: Do certain doctrines attract abusers / evil perps? To say that since abuse happens across the board in all religions, so abuse could never be problematic to certain doctrines/religions is a logical fallacy.
The doctrine of total depravity teaches people they don’t have personal responsibility. It is God who orchestrates it all as the grand puppet-master. That is quite problematic, IMO.”
I made this comment on Jan4 @ 2:33PM.
Some may be shocked at this behavior in their own circles (I was once), but it’s not so shocking if you logically connect the dots from belief to action.
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“I think all humans have a responsibility to defend the defenseless. Christians should lead the way, however, it seems unbelievers have a better handle on a lot of this.”
I can guarantee you that the secular feminists and their secular allies, as a group, have done way more than Christians, as a group, to provide for and protect abused women and children. There are, of course the occasional shining exceptions.
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And no wonder unbelievers would not be attracted to Christianity if it is safe haven for harboring abusers.
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Kevin/Seth,
Know that while you may not behave this way, an abuser or evil perp will see it as a green light when they are taught total depravity & they are just puppets in the hands of a sovereign puppet-master.
It is dangerous to preach to an abuser / evil perp that their actions are not their fault. Yes, people may be appalled at the perp’s actions. But they should not be shocked when they do the math & find out 1 + 1 = 2.
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A mom:
Total depravity simply means that man before conversion is totally depraved in his ability to please God. It doesn’t mean we don’t have personal responsibility. The fall corrupted everything. And man needs God to intervene on his behalf with the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.
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@Daisy:
I have long maintained that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction. “Thou Shalt Not” instead of “Yeah Yeah Yeah”.
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@AnAttorney:
And when indulging those desires (i.e. “God Wills it”) blows up in your face, don’t forget “Not My Fault! God Willed It!”
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A Calv would never believe that or teach that. We teach God’s soverienty and Mans Responsibility. There is a tension regarding this all through the Bible. We always maintain that man is responsible for his actions.
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I contend that the root of the problem that everyone is trying to get to is simply Pride. Mans pride is what causes these abhorrent behaviors. Pride is the root of all sin.
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I do not particularly like the term “total depravity” because all men do not act depraved. Non-Christians can act even more loving then a Christian and do because they want to, not because they get something out of it.
In the dictionary, depravity means acting corruptly and evil.
I believe that we are all tainted and marred with sin and sin itself has no home within the presence of God, therefore those who do not believe in Jesus as the Savior and Redeemer over sin will not be able to enjoy His presence in this life and the next. Also without the Holy Spirit present inside a persons heart, the ability for that person to grow and mature to be more like Christ is nil/nada; but that person can, because of Gods goodness and the very fact all are made in the image of God, they have a conscience given to them by God. This conscience will be pricked to understand good and evil. Did not God plant the tree of good and evil and therefore say “Do not eat or you will know BOTH good and evil?” God did not desire that man know evil; He desired that man be innocent. But man did have a choice given to Him by God.
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@Lydia:
Doesn’t a lot of Protestantism denounce Catholicism for its hierarchy (i.e. clergy caste system)? Especially the non-liturgical splinters of Protestantism? Maybe they’re just mad it’s not THEIR clergy caste system and THEY’RE not the ones on top giving orders Ex Cathedra.
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“Total depravity simply means that man before conversion is totally depraved in his ability to please God. It doesn’t mean we don’t have personal responsibility. The fall corrupted everything. And man needs God to intervene on his behalf with the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.”
Kevin, Take a moment & hear what you are saying:
Man is unable to please God or by default do good.
God changes man (by intervening & regenerating the man).
Both statements tell each & every person they are either preselected before birth (nothing they can do) to either go to heaven or be doomed to hell by a selective God who picks & chooses whether a man is IN or OUT. There is never, ever anyone choosing God.
Your god hands out immunity idols to who he likes (whether the man is evil or not) & the rest go to hell.
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Exactly how is this belief different from Islam, Kevin?
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A mom:
Hebrews tells us that without faith no man can please God. Therefore, since the fall, every person has been born in sin and in rebellion to a Holy God. And since man is dead in his transgressions, he cannot save himself. Therefore, he needs a savior. All humanity is doomed to hell. God doesn’t have to save any of us. The miracle and love of God is that he does for his own pleasure save some of us. Those he predestined before the foundations of the world. Eph. 1.
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Do you have children, Kevin?
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If you have children…
would you or anyone else consider you loving or just/righteous if you planned before they were born to save one of your children but not the rest, intentionally, by design & on purpose?
How much more loving is God than parents such as us?
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Yes, I have children. You can’t make that analogy becuase God is the creator and we are his creation. I understand your point, but it doesn’t work.
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Are children robots & parents computer programmers? If not, do you want your child to be a robot? If children didn’t have a choice but were pre-programmed to love, could it be really be called love?
davidbrainerd’s Jan5 8:01 comment: I don’t see how anyone can rationalize in their mind the claims that since Jesus the Saviour of the world was foreordained to come and save us this somehow implies predestination of what individuals will be saved. They are two very different concepts and the one does not imply the other. In fact, the foreordination of Jesus coming to die on the cross to save whosoever will means that individual predestination of who will be saved is an impossibility. Likewise, the predestination of individuals to salvation would render the sacrifice of Christ unnecessary, because then salvation would be by predestination rather than the precious blood of Christ. The one thing I would disagree with you on is merely a terminology point. I would say that Jesus was foreordained not predestined, because the even of him coming to die for our sins was indeed ordained of old, but it was not imposed on him as if he had no freewill: he chose to do it. So its foreordination but certainly not predestination. And since he himself was involved in foreordaining it, his choice was present not just later but even at the time that it was determined. Thus it is completely different from any form of predestination and I would not dare classify it as a form of predestination.
This is love. This is my God. And on this I stand.
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“Yes, I have children. You can’t make that analogy becuase God is the creator and we are his creation. I understand your point, but it doesn’t work.”
Why not, Kevin? Are you saying you don’t know the difference yourself between right and wrong, justice and injustice? Are you saying only God knows the difference between right and wrong, justice and injustice? We are but lowly worms who don’t have a clue?
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Would anyone call a fireman just & righteous if he:
set a fire
predetermined who he would rush in to save
leave the rest to burn to a crisp
This is the God Kevin believes in:
All people are born wicked.
God damns most people to hell before they are born. You better believe they are viewed as vipers in diapers within this belief system.
God will save some, they have zero choice in the matter.
The rest have zero choice to serve God, even if they desperately wanted to, they will burn to a crisp.
Big difference between his God & mine. I believe all children, women, men are of precious worth & they decide whether to love & follow God or not. They are 100% responsible for this and all other choices they make. They choose how they will live on earth & into eternity. Good is good. And bad is bad.
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Kevin, the Wartburg Watch is a site that also focuses on abuse in the church, but attempts to maintain a more neutral tone on this subject. There is a more diverse commentor base there too.
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Seth said:
“Kevin, the Wartburg Watch is a site that also focuses on abuse in the church, but attempts to maintain a more neutral tone on this subject. ”
Who attempts to have a more neutral tone, the readers or Dee/Deb?
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Seth, I am only asking the same questions that made me think long & hard about what I believed. It is right to ask ourselves these questions and think on them as we go about our lives. I would not recommend ANYONE believe anything, I would not ask ANYONE to believe what I believe either, without thinking it through first.
The Bible doesn’t contradict reality. It doesn’t mysteriously convert good into bad or bad into good.
A good, loving parent is a good, loving parent, not a wicked one. A firefighter who saves lives is good. A firefighter who intentionally predetermines & wants to leave people to burn to a crisp is bad. With that said, a person can refuse to evacuate a forest on fire AND that’s no fault of the firefighter.
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Yes A Mom
Look at the verses: Genesis 3:22 “then the Lord God said, ” Behold, the man has become like one of Us, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL; and now, he MIGHT (notice the non predestination response here) stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”
Also, Genesis 4:6-7 “then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? IF you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, BUT YOU MUST MASTER IT.”
Now why in the world would God ask Cain to check himself and his ability to sin? Did God predestined Cain and was playing a sarcastic cruel joke by taunting him with these questions? Does this not show that God was pricking his conscience and asking him to choose what was right?
Just a thought.
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Actually JA, there are a few heated discussions there too about doctrines.
So I do not if Seth will be able to escape it there either. Actually I got railed on my views on Mandela at WW, so I would just say that is the beauty of people being able to freely dish it out (in a non-demeaning way of course).
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“Yes, I have children. You can’t make that analogy becuase God is the creator and we are his creation. I understand your point, but it doesn’t work.”
We most certainly can make that analogy. God makes many analogies just like that in the Bible to communicate to us. How else can we understand at all? What you are suggesting is Gnosticism. You constantly appeal to mystery or some special knowledge. You seem to forget that God came to earth as a human. A lowly one. Now that is communication we can understand.
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“Kevin, the Wartburg Watch is a site that also focuses on abuse in the church, but attempts to maintain a more neutral tone on this subject. There is a more diverse commentor base there too.”
Seth, Are you seriously trying to pit one blog against the other. I know several who have been moderated there for disagreeing in a tone some did not like and with the pastor of the blog. I know several who have left because they do not feel like their views are welcome–and from both sides of the Cal/Free will debate.
Every blog has its own personality. That is the beauty of it. And they can do whatever they want on them. And if we do not like it, we can start our own blogs.
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I haven’t begun to read all of these comments here, but I wanted to comment. Of the 800+ posts on my site, the post that I did on “Christian” domestic discipline in 2007 is still ranked in the top ten most read posts. The search terms are equally as disturbing. I kept track of it a few years ago, and on every Sunday, I had a regular number of hits from people googling “pastor teaching that husbands should spank wives.” (I definitely didn’t go to church where they did!) I would never have believed this had I not seen these searches, week after week.
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I should have explained more on my earlier comment. Dee and I have discussed this topic at length and although she doesn’t have a specific debate thread like I have, she welcomes both sides and so do I. It’s just a challenge when it gets personal and the debate takes over a thread. But if anyone doesn’t like the discussion, they can wait until a new thread starts or air their opinion. As someone who was sued for strongly speaking my mind, I value that privilege in the US and I’m not quick to put a stop to it on my own blog unless there are personal attacks or it is hurting spiritual abuse survivors. And with the exception of one comment a couple months ago in which someone was attempting to lead people away from this blog to their own blog so they could personally attack me, I do not remove comments critical of me. I’m sure 100% of my blog readers are not going to like me. That’s ok. I won’t lose sleep over it. Criticize me, challenge me. It’s absolutely fine with that. My goal is not to gain bosom buddies, but to expose abuse and disturbing trends where I see it.
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Cindy, I was keeping track, too. Every single day I get searches for wife spanking and variations of that phrase. I don’t know if they are searching because they have a sexual fetish or if there are wives searching to find out if this is normal. Either way, I’m happy if they land on my blog (and certainly yours). They may not be happy, though. Oh well.
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Julie Anne,
At least it’s not as bad as the search items that Lewis Wells finds when people end up on his “Daughters Shaving Daddies” post on the Commandments of Men.
I spoke with Maureen Canning who is the sex addiction specialist at The Meadows (the post once held by Patrick Carnes). The aggressive spanking techniques like the Pearl method do set up children for what is understood as a psychological fusion of pain and pleasure. When you hit the buttocks aggressively, there is vibration that is conducted up through the genitalia. There is a contingent of adults that practice this as a result of this fusion, unable to experience sexual pleasure very well without some element of pain. We’ll never get any kind of reliable statistics on how prevalent this is, but it is a factor for some. So this is another product of some of these teachings that are so grossly authoritarian.
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Yeah Julie Anne I would not lose too much sleep for I think that is the reason you and TWW get so many commentors- because you do allow the discussion. Is it not a blessing that even non-Christians peruse your blog? I would say so. 🙂
Well this is my last comment for I must get ready to do the “unpopular” thing on this blog and HOMESCHOOL my kids tomorrow—lol….. 🙂 ( just kidding with that last statement, for I know there was quite a lot of debate on that subject alone).
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Hey, T4HO, guess what, I spent time homeschooling today, too. Shoot me! LOL
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@ missdaisyflower
“Gender complementarianism infantilizes adult women.” That sums up things quite nicely, especially in this context! That is a ringer and stands out in my mind!
Females are groomed from an early age to believe this junk. Equally boys are groomed in a male-centric way of understanding life and being a Christian. Mutuality and equality are frowned on. Married partners who are equal to help one another, to challenge one another, to laugh and cry together, and to share life together–not part of the program. Programed for male superiority–cuz the Bible says so, case closed. Any other belief, model, or persuasion = not godly, not Christian, not biblical!
How does one have the will power to break free from that type of entrenched thinking–whether female or male?! This is what is sold as ‘the real deal’. This is an abomination and not part of the Kingdom that Christ represents. This belief system continually needs to be dismantled in every way possible and exposed for the fallacy that it is.
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Barb, this is so true.
I do have a husband who treats me equally- we banter back and forth, hold hands, share responsibilities, cry; don’t see eye to eye in some things and argue it out, hug, enjoy each others company. This is my husband. He does not feel the need to be “taller” then me or a “Biblical” sense of duty that “I am to be in submission”. In fact, at one time I was the one who felt I should be this way and try to demand that he be the “spiritual” leader- how foolish of me! what a special man I have and I did not see it at the time!
Now it is different and I tell you we have more peace; growing together; more love and respect for each other then we ever did and we are not even members of any church or under any pastor. So are we in sin or is there evidence that Christ is the head of our marriage, not each other?
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T4HO says, ” . . . we are not even members of any church or under any pastor. So are we in sin or is there evidence that Christ is the head of our marriage, not each other?”
No, you are not in sin. Jesus commands us to love one another. He says that we are not to lord it over others. Rather, the greatest is the one who is the servant of all (the probable reality is that most wives are greater than their husbands). Any ecclesiastical organization or pastor that claims coercive authority over believers is out of God’s will. Whatever it means for a husband to be the head of his wife, he is required to love her (Eph 5:25), and love does not demand its own way (1 Cor 13:5). Any husband who claims the right to command his wife, i.e. to treat her as though he owns her, is in sin. He has stolen authority that belongs only to Jesus.
A husband who spanks or otherwise abuses his wife transgresses the specific command of Scripture: “Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.” (Colossians 3:19, ESV). A husband who spanks his wife also commits a crime, punishable by imprisonment.
But now the tricky part. Where relationships between Christians are concerned, it may be sin to yield to falsely claimed authority, to authority that has been stolen from Jesus. Subject to certain limits, we are instructed to yield to that civil authority which is imposed on us from outside. See e.g., Rom 13:1-7. However, to submit to a pastor or husband who is transgressing the commandment to love may constitute enablement of their sin. There may be wisdom in looking the other way, especially in isolated cases of abuse, in cases where there is not a pattern of abusive, sinful behavior. However, to yield to an ongoing pattern of abuse is to enable the other’s sin.
I wish to avoid blaming the victim. Wives (and people abused by ecclesiastical instutions and so called pastors) should no doubt be granted wide discretion. However, I suggest that a time comes where the enablement of abuse or any other sin is itself sin. Surely in the great majority of instances where a wife voluntarily submits to spanking (or any other form of abuse), especially over an extended course of time, there is a significant and substantial issue whether she has become complicit in evil. The same applies to congregants who tolerated abusive institutional and/or pastoral practices.
How sad that, in instances of domestic abuse, a wife who would resolve to not enable her husband’s sin/crimes will almost certainly be better advised to contact a women’s shelter than to contact her pastor.
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Any man who spanks his wife, or any other woman, should be required to wear this while doing so:
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@Kevin:
Ah, Worm Theology. “He is the CREATOR and we are the CREATURE.”
AKA “HE HOLDS THE WHIP! WE FEEL THE WHIP! PRAISE HIM! PRAISE HIM! PRAISE HIM!”
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@Headless Unicorn Guy,
Romans 9:21
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Your beef is with Paul, not me.
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Kevin,
If your interpretation of Paul were correct, and it is not, then, yes, I would have a beef with even Paul.
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Kevin,
Actually I do have at least one beef with Paul, for having returned the slave Onesimus to his master. Based on the information available to us in Scripture (and I grant that we may not have the full record), it was a cowardly act.
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Its a difficult and challenging teaching. That is why Paul wrote it, because people were questioning him and not accepting what he was saying. I didn’t always accept this.
It’s quite simple. God is the creator, he can do whatever he pleases. Psalm 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
Even if you take your interpretation that it’s about nations. So what? God can still do whatever he wants with nations. Even though that is not the correct interpretation.
Most of the issues, about God, on this thread can be solved by reading Romans 9.
Romans.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
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Kevin, your reading of Paul is without understanding, and is simply damnable. Please stop the silly proof texting.
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Gary, what is your Christian persuasion? you know mine.
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Kevin, Jesus is my Lord. His father is mine. His Spirit dwells within me. I renounce every other allegiance.
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Kevin said: God doesn’t have to save any of us. The miracle and love of God is that he does for his own pleasure save some of us. Those he predestined before the foundations of the world. Eph. 1.
What if Eph. 1:4 means “mankind” as opposed to God’s other creations, like angels?
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Compare Romans 9: 21 to 2Ti 2:20 “But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.”
There are vessels of honour and dishonour, but it is not “God makes some to dishonour and others to honour.” A human can choose to be a vessel of honour by cleansing himself. And where Romans 9:21 is a question, 2 Tim 2:21 -choosing to purge yourself and thus be a vessel unto honour – is a statement.
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Thanks Gary for a well laid out response- 🙂
We have to remember about Paul that he was even sized up by the Bereans. They questioned him and he commended them for it. Paul was a human being and was not perfect so I am sure that there many times he fell to the flesh. Thankfully he did, however, state that one must be led by the Spirit and not man…..and the Spirit is love and the fruits of Him come out differently then what I see in the mainstream church today.
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@Kevin:
And the Proof Text gets trotted out to smack down the Infidel/Heretic/Apostate.
“SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!”
(Can’t any of God’s Anointed Elect(TM) think of something original?)
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Both Calvin and Mohammed made Sovereignty and Omnipotence (i.e. infinite POWER) the main attribute of God, crowding out everything else.
Result: God = POWER. A God who is OMNIPOTENT but NOT benevolent. He holds The Whip, we feel The Whip, and who are we to complain? We are but the creatures and He is the Creator…
And being Godly becomes thirsting after and gaining POWER over others. That experience of God’s Omnipotence, the delicious taste of POWER. Until in the words of Lord Voldemort, “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
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“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
That certainly seems to describe God’s character as (blasphemously) defined by Kevin. No wonder some men, thinking they are emulating God, think it appropriate to spank their wives.
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Kevin, I do not find Paul at all difficult; challenging yes, but not difficult especially when I can leave it to the Spirit to give me the truth in His time and place. What I do find is that many doctrines such as Calvinism try to make it more difficult and complicated- and that is wrong. Jesus never sought out the most learned of men or women- He sought out the lowly fishermen, shepherds and poor women. He stated that He had not come to heal the “healthy” but the “sick and wanting to be healed”. God says that He uses the “foolish” things of this world to confound the “wise”. The most learned, schooled theologians can actually be the most stupid in my opinion and the most lacking of common sense and wisdom. Paul even states that he was not a learned man, but a commoner. I do not see this same attitude among the Western theologians at all today, so something is sorely lacking.
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From my ongoing observations, patriarchal beliefs regarding the marriage covenant, is spiritually and relationally bankrupt.
Patriarchy, or better termed ‘patrio-centricity’, stifles authentic intimacy, tenderness, and closeness with married partners.
Patriarchy cripples the male and female relationship in marriage and substitutes a pseudo-marriage facsimile as the authentic one. Patrio-centricity, which has been falsely contrived from Scripture, can then provide a red carpet for spousal abuse. A male-centric view of marriage is a far cry from what the Creator-Savior designed for one of the most intimate relationships that humans can have.
In the NT era, a patriarchal view of marriage is a grotesque imitation. The contrived beliefs of neo-patriarchy have been distorted in an alarming way. Patriarchy is a complete travesty of what a Christian marriage ‘in Christ’ could really be!
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Gary, not even sure what this is “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
who said that.
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@trust4himonly – I think I get your point ,but I think your not accurate about Paul.
In Philippians Paul says, “though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[c] blameless.
Paul was the greatest Theologian of all time. He was certainly not a commoner.
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Kevin,
I commented to you in the Calvinistic Blog post that Julie Anne asked us to use.
Mod note: Added link
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Kevin,
Actually, Jesus was (and is) the greatest theologian of all time. Jesus also had/has the advantage of being without sin. Paul did not. Paul clearly sinned in the matter of Onesimus, at least according to the record available to us.
Still, I am grateful for all the theologians. After all, Jesus did promise that he would send theologians to lead us into all truth.
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Paul was not perfect, but not sure how he sinned with Onesimus.
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Kevin on January 7, 2014 at 10:34 AM
I take it that this is your opinion of Paul? It is not everyone’s nor does it need to be. Paul may even disagree with you about your esteem of him 🙂
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“Paul was not perfect, but not sure how he sinned with Onesimus.”
Just as it was sin for white people to own black slave before the Civil War, so also it was a sin for Philemon to Own Onesimus. In the same way, it is sin for anybody to exercise the incidences of ownership over another person, as occurs under “Christian” Patriarchy and so called complementarianism.
But I will go farther. Jesus was/is infallible. Paul was not, except in those specific instances (one or two?) where he claimed to be speaking what he had received from God. At lease, I am not aware of anyplace where Paul claimed otherwise.
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Cindy, This is blowing my mind. It is the “pastor” angle that really throws me. Seriously? What is going on out there? It seems to be worse than I even thought it could be.
I seem to remember a commenter here a while back, a woman, who did advocated this for wives. Am I remembering correctly, Julie Anne?
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‘Romans 9:21
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”
Oh for crying out loud. What was Paul referring to? Read “rest of the story”
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[m]
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Lydia – are you thinking of Sunshine Mary?
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“Actually I do have at least one beef with Paul, for having returned the slave Onesimus to his master. Based on the information available to us in Scripture (and I grant that we may not have the full record), it was a cowardly act.”
I will argue for Paul here as this is one book that fascinated me to no end for so long. If you read the Greco/Roman household codes it shows that Phil had the legal right to put Oni to death for running away. There was a serious caste system in that world that boggles our minds. From educated “slaves” running their masters businesses to wives as chattel (breeders) living in another part of the house with the young children and slaves, etc. About the only women with any independence were the wealthy ones like Lydia and Phoebe.
We don’t know the details of the situation as to whether Phil knew where Oni had gone or what. But Paul turned the codes on their head when he begged Phil to treat his slave as a ‘brother in Christ”. An equal.
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Oh and think of the message of LOVE to that Body of Christ if Philemon did what Paul asked.
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“Lydia – are you thinking of Sunshine Mary?”
That is it! It took a while for that to come out but come out it did!!!
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In Philippians Paul says, “though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[c] blameless”
Your proof texting is starting to become ridiculous. What is Paul really saying here and to whom and why? To whom is he giving his Jewish bonafides? And why? Context!
The total IRONY is that Jesus Christ called the NON cream of the crop to be his Apostles from the get go. Had they been the cream of the Rabbinical crop they would not have been fishing/doctoring, etc. but studying until about age 30.
YET, a Rabbinical scholar was called to take the Good News to the GENTILES who could have cared less. Total irony. Love it, myself. What was interesting were the assemblies that included both diaspora Jew/Gentile like most of them as Christianity spread. There was always the tension because of these Gentiles who did not even know the Law of Moses! What a wake up call. Faith!
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“It is not everyone’s nor does it need to be. Paul may even disagree with you about your esteem of him 🙂 ”
Hee Hee, Bridget. I totally agree with you. Great point. I think he would be appalled that he has been elevated to Christ status by so many.
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The very phrase: “under the authority of ____” is relevant only in the following settings: (1) in the military, where there is a designated superior officer, (2) in a civil government or corporate structure, applying only to the work being done for the government or corporation, and not to one’s personal life; and (3) in a judicial or corrections environment, when one is charged with or convicted of a crime. It is not a proper phrase for use in the church context. One is NEVER under the teaching or authority of a pastor.
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Kevin when you wrote that “Paul was the greatest Theologian of all time and not a commoner”, this showed me the true colors of Calvinism. It elevates THEOLOGY over the person. You put Theologian with a capital T and separated it from being a commoner- that my friend is elitist. Paul did none of those things, but diminished himself and called for all to become servants. He placed himself as a commoner, yes he did.
1 Corinthians 1:18-31
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”
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So sorry this comment section has degenerated into a hot-button theology discussion, but let me join right in and try to get us back on topic: Are some predestined to be the spanker and others the spankee?
It occurred to me that ‘Wife Spanking’ is even more repulsive, because it demotes and denigrates women even further — to the level of a child being disciplined. I can imagine a scenario in this environment where teen and adult sons think they can (or even should) discipline their own mother. I don’t even want to imagine what these boys would do to their sisters. In the Hanna Williams case, the oldest brother was tasked with physically disciplining the younger siblings, including Hanna.
(Hanna Williams was an Ethiopian adoptee who died of malnutrition and exposure in her backyard three years after being adopted by the Larry and Carri Williams family. Both parents were convicted of murder this fall. The Williams’ employed ‘To Train Up a Child’ discipline methods advocated by Michael Pearl.)
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Howl, There is a well known IFB pastor with a large following and popular forum whose sister outed him in her book for his molestation of her that he learned from his pastor dad. He said sorry and still has a large following.
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Yeah Lydia that “sorry” is as worth as a pile of dung. These guys can quickly say their sorries as quick the government changes its laws. Anything that will benefit them in the long run. Narcissism does not care what hoops it has to go through as long as it gets back on top.
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The story of Hanna still haunts me and I won’t forget it. These people had no clue who Christ is; their god was one of power and cruelty, much like Allah.
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trust4himonly, I also am haunted. I followed the trial on Follow the Light blog, but it did not really hit home for me in a visceral way until we had a November day that was in the 40s, the same temps that Hanna endured on her last day on earth. Carri Williams truly does deserve the time she’ll be serving in prison; only an utterly cruel person could have witnessed this and chosen not to intervene because Hanna was “rebellious”.
lydiasellerofpurple, yes, so many of these men just say, “Oops, sorry, trust me, I’m repenting as we speak,” and everyone continues on as though nothing has happened.
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@Trust4HimOnly:
Just as Communism elevates IDEOLOGY over the person. Ask any survivor of Cambodia’s killing fields how far that can go. And has gone.
I suspect this is a side/aftereffect of Extreme Predestination. Extreme Predestination solves the paradox of Evil by placing God beyond Good and Evil. To where God Wills what God Wills and who are we to call it “Evil”? Making Good and Evil completely meaningless. God simply becomes the biggest boot, Infinite Power.
@Howl:
I think it has gone that far in some male-supremacist cultures. Shortly after 9/11 when we were being bombarded by all this contradictory information about Islam, there was something about some “Islamic” (Arab Tribal?) culture where upon coming-of-age, sons were either expected or allowed to smack their own mother around because he was now a man and she was now just a woman. I suspect this was actually from some tribal group or fringe movement; Islam also has its extreme crazies and fringe “cults”.
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@trust4himonly – I don’t even know what you’re talking about…..Im not elevating theology over anybody. Theology is how we KNOW Christ. You have a theology regardless of what you think…..and what I meant about Paul was that he wrote most of the NT and Romans is the most theological book in the NT and is filled with theology.
Paul was not a commoner. He was a Pharisee among Pharisees and had every right to boast about himself but he didnt and boasted only about Christ.
What is there to argue about this?
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Kevin this is what I am saying- Calvinism seems to be equated with God’s Word. Paul had nothing to do with this; he placed himself as a “commoner”; a slave. Paul looked at these kind of “theologies” as mans institutions, not Gods. Do you really think Paul would have approved of Calvins take on being a Christian and his establishing of Little Geneva? Do you think Paul would accepted any -ism that put pastors and their “theologies” above the flock? Do you think Paul would have accepted the fear based, sin drenching theologies, legalist mentality of the church today?
Take a good look at 1 Corinthians 13 – Love is the law and the theology of Christ. When we know this and understand this we have no need for Calvinism or Arminianism or any ism. Love is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and in the Spirit He teaches ALL things needed for us to grow in Christ. All these terminologies, such as, mortification, predestination, TULIP, Total Depravity, etc…. do not mean a hill of beans without love. As I said before they are just clanging cymbals.
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And while we’re arguing Predestination and Theology and Doctrine, pastors’ widows are still eating out of dumpsters and Comp/Patrio hubbies are still “disciplining” their wives.
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You are right HUG.
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Here is what I mean by what I posted- I was one selfish Christian. I went to church; I was a good girl and obeyed my parents; I knew doctrine. One thing was missing however, I did not have the love blossoming and growing- it was stagnant. Until, I stepped out and started leaning on Christ Himself; asking Him to help me grow. This sounds simplistic and juvenile, I know; but it was the Holy Spirit that help me see my weaknesses and failures, not the pastor or “theology”. It was the theology of trusting in the Savior that helped me to see that love is what transforms us to be more like Christ- What is the greatest of these?
Paul was actually a lot more simplistic about walking with Christ – there are no lofty terminologies that find its home in God’s Word.
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