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As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.
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Warning: this is a heavy and disturbing article.
As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations. For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.
I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.
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But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?
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One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking. The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal. If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical. Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical. Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?
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As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc. What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.
One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.
I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.
Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses. Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew. This is going on elsewhere.
We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.
Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.
I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.
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Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 12:32 pm
“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.
I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?
Lindt Says:
December 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm
I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.
Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.
Ghirard Says:
December 30, 2013 at 11:08 am
Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.
Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced. We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:
After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.
Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:
December 30, 2013 at 12:27 pm
It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.
JPGR Says:
December 28, 2013 at 8:21 am
I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.
My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?
Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….
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I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement. Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening. So what is a godly response to ungodliness?
Exposure!
Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.
Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.
Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?
Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?
She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.
These women need our prayers and our help. We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty. We have voices and must speak up for them.
photo credit: bark via photopin cc
Updated note: Slight modification of title and removed key words See note in comments.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Yeah pretty shocking and sad. I’ve never heard of wife spanking in the semi patriarchical circles I’ve been in, but part of my home schooling involved Gothard’s materials and I could easily see the theoretical framework for it developed there
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This is absolutely disgusting.
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Knowing the attitudes of some of these “Christian Patriarchal Leaders”, this sounds like a recipe for “DIE, HERETIC!!!!!!”
Or (when you mix in Reconstructionism), once the land is cleansed(TM) of all Infidels/Heathen, they start cleansing(TM) the land of the Heretics. And the Universe cannot have two centers. Or two One True Ways.
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I think you are absolutely right. These women need to be prayed for and told that what is occurring is absolutely domestic violence, especially since they are given no choice and no voice in the relationship. The example of that poor woman being scolded and spanked in such a manner is most definitely abuse and not only should the man be confronted with the abuse so he knows he is being watched but the woman needs to know that she does not have to take it and there are always other options for herself and for any children that may be living in the home. And personally I don’t give two hoots if he is a pastor of a church or not. He is human and therefore fallible. I grew up in a very strict church that would border on being a part of the patriarchal movement, because the pastor thought the woman’s place was in the home and not anywhere else. Of course for me that chaffed pretty bad especially when he was confronted about it and he got indignant about being questioned by a woman.
In regards to the “Christian Domestic Discipline” is concerned I think that domestic discipline being taught as Biblical and correct is nothing more than their excuse to control every aspect of their wives lives with little personal responsibility for their own. However I would have to say the assertion that Domestic Discipline is Domestic Abuse is wrong. By definition Domestic Discipline is entered into by both sides, is mutually agreed upon, can end at any given time and it certainly does not diminish the wife or significant others value or opinion within the relationship. This is in extreme contrast to domestic abuse which is perpetrated under the auspices of humiliation, degradation, and control of the other person WITHOUT their consent and to devalue the individual and their role in the relationship. Now, I am not saying it is right or wrong but I think we need to be careful about labeling an activity such as domestic discipline as wrong and abusive. In every style of relationship whether it is a husband and wife, employer to employee or even in D/s relationships there are always going to be abusers and it certainly doesn’t mean that the style of relationship as a whole is abusive.
Personally I think it is amazing that this crap is going on inside church’s and that more and more people aren’t standing up to these pastors and elders and challenging them to show where in the Bible it says it is ok to spank, humiliate and degrade their wife and children. My father always told me that it doesn’t matter what comes from the pulpit unless it lines up with the Bible I’m holding. If it doesn’t, ask the pastor and if he balks in anyway or can’t answer for the discrepancy, leave. I’m just wondering why people in church’s are acting like lemmings and blindly believing what is being put forth from the pulpit? Maybe my time in so many church’s questioning the pastors has lead me to be a tad bit too cynical and critical.
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Seth – – That is exactly what I am hoping that people will see – – the framework is set up for this kind of abuse automatically. Just add some narcissistic church leaders, a couple yes-men and there ya go.
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littlesouthernbelle–but where is mutually agreed domestic discipline upon taught in Scripture? When Paul spoke of marriage representing Christ and his bride, physical punishment was not part of the picture.
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lilsouthernbelle: Ack – I made a mistake. I did not want the focus of this article on Christian Domestic Discipline – as in mutually agreed upon spanking – as part of sex.
I just removed the reference to Christian Domestic Discipline because I want to focus primarily on wife spanking – – that is – spanking done by the husband who claims he has the spiritual authority to spank her.
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Has R. C. Sproul ( senior) ever been confronted about his son’s behavior?
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@LiliSouthernBelle:
I remember hearing that “erotic flagellation” (including spanking) was a common kink of upper-crust Victorians, and a common subject in Victorian porn. Funny thing about the Victorians; like everything else sexual, they were very indirect about their porn, to the point someone today might not recognize it AS porn. I can’t remember the source, but someone once claimed that some of those Christian Spanking manuals for childrearing were sourced from Victorian flagellation porn (the 19th Century version of “Domestic Discipline”) without realizing the genre of the original. At least this is more direct a descent.
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@CarmenS:
You telling the CELEBRITY something other than what the CELEBRITY wants to hear? You know how that ends up.
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I am so calling this blanket training for wives.
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Good work Julie. We have known for some time about wife spanking in Reformed circles but have never been able to prove it. We will keep focusing on the doctrine, and you guys focus on the fruit. Also, I believe the answer is the home fellowship movement. I believe the institutional church breeds a lot of this nonsense.
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Paul – It can easily be replicated in the home fellowship movement. Let’s not kid ourselves.
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Reblogged this on Paul's Passing Thoughts.
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Karen: The blanket training reference is here: http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/doug-phillips-mentor-and-spiritual-father-speaks-out/#comment-29676
It’s about blanket training babies/toddlers.
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Julie Anne, I know so many people who have practiced this form of child abuse and am not the least bit surprised that anyone would spank wives. Spanking itself has an erotic legacy and I remember hearing young adult daughters say they didn’t know it was abusive, even when they were 18 and spanked BARE BOTTOM by their fathers, who embraced the rod verses.
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Oh, I know, Karen. Spanking of any child in the home (including adult children) was taught at our cult church. I don’t recall bare bottoms, but it’s just sick. And the bare bottom spanking of an adult daughter was part of the SGM lawsuit. I did an article on this.
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Oh, and by the way, Phillips and Sproul are Calvinists: C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-T-S.
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No Julie, the home fellowship movement is not predicated on control. It’s predicated on fellowship and gifts. Though not impossible–far less likely. Historically, ALL cults come from the institutional church where control is important. That’s just plain history. For instance, Jim Jones was a huge part of the institutional church in SF Cal.
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Paul,
How widespread is spanking adult daughters and wives among the “Reformed” movement. It never occured to me that this sort of thing happens.
Is this being taught in Seminaries? Which ones?
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littlesouthernbelle – abuse is about control of every aspect of the other’s life, actions, etc. Its not JUST about the ‘act’ like hitting, demeaning, etc. Abusive personalities also aren’t big on personal responsibility.
I think your confusing the type spoken of here, and kinky sex type. I would agree both are completely different, but when you throw in the spiritual abuse they use to tell you that you MUST submit to it? You have gone beyond the kinky sex, and into a form of abuse.
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Hannah,
I probably causes some of the confusion by including the term: Christian domestic discipline. I have since removed it.
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This article was more evidence that “Christian” patriarchy is absolutely perverted and from the pits of hell.
I actually have a story in this regard. I don’t know if I told it on this blog before:
On a patriarchy blog, men were once discussing women and how it is impossible to find a good wife. I (this was before discovering egalitarianism) felt I had all the qualities they mention a good wife should have, and they actually want some things they do not mention, so I mentioned in the comments there that I have those qualities and cannot find a guy. They turn “how can Retha get a man? – Advice” into a new blog post.
On that post, by the way, people were shocked that I am single and call myself a Christian – singleness, in the opinion of some of them, is just not the state a Christian woman should be in.
One of them, by the religious-sounding nickname of Mrs. Pilgrim, advised me to advertise for a taken in hand relationship. I asked her what a taken in hand relationship was, and she gave me a link to a page that promotes wife beating. She automatically assumed that I needed a relationship like that and should go for one. The mere thought of having a man who hits me when I do “wrong” scared me big time.
Oh, and @ HUG: I do not like the word “kinky” here, because kinky is a word used for both perfectly harmless peculiarities like liking women’s shoes and perversions like enjoying to cause pain (sadism). These are not similar and should not be called the same word.
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Mark,
No, as Julie stated, this is hardly something that is out in the open. Likewise, many don’t understand how the Reformed really practice “redemptive church discipline.” However, when I was a Reformed pastor–they were pretty open about the drunkenness thing. In Europe, pastors getting together at the local pub and getting drunk while discussing theology is a tradition.
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Paul,
Even though it isn’t out in the open, wouldn’t there be some kind of “figure head” that leads this movement or some kind of “off the cuff” Doctrine these guys are embracing that is being taught in a certain Seminary.
This is strange. What about Driscoll is he part of it?
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@Mark:
Pope Francis was recently interviewed on the subject of seminaries. Here are excerpts from an MSNBC article on the interview. Note the contrast with the Calvinistas, comp/patrios, and Mega/Giga pastor/dictators:
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Do a simple Google search of “wife spanking.” It makes me want to cry.
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Kathi, wife spanking is one of the most common phrases that people use to find my blog. I don’t get it.
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I’m kind of new here, and can’t remember how I found you, but I just want to say I am stunned and shocked to hear about this. There is one nut job in my town who promotes patriarchy and polygyny but everyone laughs him off as a loon. As far as I know he can’t even maintain enough of a following to pay the rent on a storefront suite.
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That is interesting. I just did a Google search again. You’re on the bottom of page 2, so not that far in.
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I’ve seen some bizarre things through all the years I’ve been a Christian. This is the most bizarre. If this is true about the Sprouls it is sad and pitiful. R.C. and Jr. both need to answer these charges. This behavior is unacceptable (if not illegal). As the father of two married daughters I can tell you that if either one had been married to R.C. Jr. … well I better not say. The celebrities are demonstrating pathological behavior more frequently. Thanks to bloggers like you, Julie Anne, maybe change will come eventually. But then again people just seem to always be drawn to these kinds of “leaders.”
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Weird, Kathi. Why is this blog even listed with wife spanking? Well, it may have gone up now due to the title and keywords.
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Mark,
The best example is Redemptive Church Discipline. In regard to how it is really practiced: you will not find it ANYWHERE in writing. It’s talked about at pastors conferences, but totally off the record. Nevertheless, the practice of it is very widespread. Same deal with wife spanking.
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…I wouldn’t think as widespread as the former, but you get the idea.
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Basically, through RCD, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Christians being held hostage at churches; ie, if they leave, they will be public ally humiliated. In most cases, things they revealed in “biblical: counseling” will be made public.
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@PaulsPassingThoughts:
Biblical Counseling or Scientology Auditing?
(Tip: If some of your church’s practices can be described as “Just like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)”, you might want to rethink them.)
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Why do women stand for this? Allow themselves to handled in this way? Why do they physically obey “Go to your room!”? It’s not my intention to blame a victim–but, I honestly can’t wrap my female/Christian brain around a grown woman allowing this to happen. How powerful are these little men? Do they (the women) not live in communities of other men/women? Or, are they sequestered?
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@troy56
Who is going to hold R.C Sproul, SR. accountable? Who are people at Ligonier Ministries accountable to? As far as I know, R.C. “parks” his ordination in the PCA, but his church is “independant”. An independant Presbyterian is an oxymoron.
When you lead a double life, and your life doesn’t match your doctrine, you should be held accountable to someone besides yourself.
Without the internet I wouldn’t know about any of this.
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Sigh. I believe @paulspassingthoughts and @HeadlessUnicornGuy answered for me. This all just makes me want to vomit. I say it’s time to take off the “Nice Christian” gloves and go full bore in exposing these small little men and their minions. Enough is enough. Let God parse “gossip” and may each one who knows truth about small little men like this–be they Superstars in their field or Joe Blow from across the street….OUT THEM. Shut them down.
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HUG,
Right, that was the buzz a couple of years ago and the same comparisons were made, and aptly so.
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Carmen,
You’re absolutely right regarding accountability. There simply isn’t any. It is interesting, though, that the “leaders” seem to want the followers held accountable. This post regarding the treatment of Mrs. Sproul is maybe the most troubling one I’ve read concerning such a high profile “ministry.” I had never heard of anything close to this “sick” taking place within the “church” context. I hope that it isn’t true but I trust Julie Anne more than R.C. (Sr. and Jr.)
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OK. I think what I typed may not have come out the way I had intended. Sorry Julie-Anne! 😦
@Grace Alone – That was my entire point. If the men are being taught by their elders that wife spanking, which is Christian Domestic Discipline or CDD, is Biblical they why aren’t they confronting them and asking them to point to the specific scripture? If that happened more often then eventually they would stop trying to teach it because they can’t point to a scripture that approves or call for it at all. I think the use of the Bible to justify this type of abuse is reprehensible.
@Julie Anne – I can understand your concern and I’m sorry for causing problems with this subject. It is incredibly interesting to hear that this stuff goes on and is deeply disturbing that people aren’t stepping up to the plate and stopping it. I can understand you removing Christian Domestic Discipline but in reality wife spanking by a husband who claims he has the spiritual authority to do so is by definition Christian Domestic Discipline. It doesn’t matter what you call is, whether it is CDD or wife spanking by Biblical authority it is still abuse. Abuse is abuse is abuse no matter how you slice it.
@Headless Unicorn Guy – I haven’t heard that but it would make sense given the time period. It is an interesting thought though and would be interested to see if it actually would prove true.
@Hannah Thomas – That was exactly my point. As you said the “kinky sex type” differs greatly from what is being discussed above as CDD. In the initial write of the article above it mention both Christian Domestic Discipline and Domestic Discipline which are 2 vastly different issues. I was merely trying to point out that while Domestic Discipline is an agreed upon, mutual choice that can be stopped at any point and does not devalue any person in the relationship, Christian Domestic Discipline is completely different. It serves as a way to control a woman physically, emotionally, psychologically and spiritually, without her choice and without her agreement. This is abuse and the fact that they use the Bible as a reason to justify their abuse make the act that much more abhorrent.
@Julie Anne – Sorry for confusion and for causing any type of problems with this subject. I think the fact that you are putting this information out there is extremely informative and phenomenal and I hope it can help some people pull away from these types of oppressive and abusive church teachings.
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Paul– I have been a part of 5 different “home fellowship” churches. I assure you, they are NOT the answer.
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Paul, as much as I promote house churches, I have to agree with Joyelle. Sometimes you’ll find the most extreme types of individuals in house churches because there are even fewer checks and balances.
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What the hell is “Christian Patriarchy”? Thank God I’m not in a so-called Mainstream Protestant denomination. There’s so much nonsense I get to miss out on and be totally oblivious to.
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Oh, and by the way, since Calvinists like Turretinfan (are you around anywhere TF?) are so obsessed with Ergun Caner, and think I must make a requisite mention to how Ergun Caner said so many years back now that Calvinism is Islam. Well, this kind of proves it. The Koran says to beat your wife [lightly] right? And here we find the Calvinists practicing it. The New Calvinist motto: Allah Akbar et Soli Deo Gloria.
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So, you moved up on page 2. The date with the link is Oct. 9, 2013. However, when you click on the link it brings us to today’s post. Strange.
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This whole subject is so sick that it really creeps me out to think that these men call what they are doing “Christian”. It isn’t. It’s vile and demented and cruel.
What an obscenity!!
And I must add that when, some few years ago, a speaker from the nearest women’s shelter spoke at a meeting of our ladies’ group, she said that one of the most regular visitors to that shelter was the wife of a minister in the area, who beats his wife so badly that she flees the house several times a month.
Someone asked, “Why does she keep going back?” and the woman explained that the poor woman’s own family sends her back to him as soon as they find she is gone again, telling her that she will “burn in hell forever” for seeking asylum and/or medical care. She has NO support from anyone in her husband’s church; they all believe that he has the right to treat he any way that he pleases…..
Whole lot of folks with sick, sick minds, & great wickedness in their hearts.
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@lilsouthernbelle: Just want to clarify that according to the CDD website, once a woman agrees to this lifestyle, she can NOT back out:
“Nonconsensual Consent is a viewpoint oft utilised in Christian Domestic Discipline marriages. The concept of nonconsensual consent means that consent is given once in the beginning for the duration of the relationship, rather than specifically for each individual instance discipline is to be carried out.”
I won’t post the link unless someone requests it. I went there once when someone posted the link in another blog. There is not enough brain bleach in the workd to recover from that mistake.
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“Why is this blog even listed with wife spanking?”
Maybe because it’s a dirty huge secret? Could it be more prevalent than we know of?
For women who are told they are to “submit” in this fashion, take hold of Galatians 3:28-29 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.
This is your birthright if you abide with Jesus. Know it. Believe it. Know it’s against the law to be hit if you don’t want to be. And know you don’t have to agree to be struck ever again. It is spiritual abuse & marital abuse no doubt about it. Get evidence & go to your local shelter for help.
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I have been to St. Andrew several times. We USED to donate. No more. I can’t get them to stop mailing me or calling me & I’ve asked several times. I can’t imagine how much they spend on phone calls, man hours, mailings. The last time I attended St. Andrew, JR delivered the message from the pulpit in his father’s steed.
While SR is not responsible for his adult son’s actions (there are several issues, if I remember correctly), he does seem to be turning a blind eye toward them, IMO. It does create a credibility issue for SR, IMO.
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Kathi, I think the reason why the search picked up today’s post is because of the keyword in the title. Now I’m forever doomed to get hits on this topic, but I don’t mind if it helps just one woman. Just one woman, please God! Help these precious wives.
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I would like to know…how is the fallout from VF and stories like this affecting SGM and Sovereign Grace churches that broke away? Sovereign Grace was a patriarchy system and they pushed similar methods of Ezzo, courtship, etc… As Vision Forum falls apart will this challenge and create problems for SGM or Sovereign Grace churches? It only proves how many SGM methods are wrong and fallible and if I bought into a system like that for years and learned stuff like this I would be having a faith crisis as well.
What about Sojourn or Acts 29 churches will this have any bearing on them?
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Being theologically egalitarian, reformed, and baptist, it’s hard to find a church “home.” But as an outsider, I must still challenge those here who are accusing reformed doctrine as the evil that spawned patriarchy. It is not. When Tulip and the 5 Solas are embraced with consistency, it can produce egalitarians such as myself. So why are calvinists falling for such abusive teachings? For the same reasons that arminians and other groups do – spiritual blindness, unbiblical traditions, and unquestioning submission to leaders. I found this also present in the charismatic arminian circles I once attended. Supporters of Ergun Caner ought to be ashamed for excusing this corrupt leader, an unrepentant liar, who maligns and bullies those who are demanding integrity and truth from him. You are no different than those still supporting R.C. Sproul, Jr. Evil needs to be exposed and denounced wherever it is operating. Our first loyalty must be to Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
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Christy….
Amen, amen.
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Eagle: The demise of VF will have a minimal effect if I understand this group well. Lots of people are reading the Phillips articles, looking for information. However, my hunch is this – – – those who already had concerns will find more information to backup and confirm those concerns and they may distance themselves from Patriarchy.
Most likely SGM or related churches will continue preaching/teaching Patriarchy/courtship/full-quiver and pray for Phillips’ sinful soul. He will be the black sheep of the movement. SGM and HOFCC and family-integrated churches are not going to ditch one of the core tenets of their belief system based on one man’s sins. Besides, they can’t give up that control of their wives. That would be scandalous! I’d have to look through my notes, but Brent Detwiler sent me a SGM membership covenant – not sure if it is a current or old one. But at least at one time, if you wanted to be members of SGM, you’d have to sign to say you agree with complementation practices. As long as SBTS and CBMW are spamming the internet with their stuff, this issue of man over woman is not going away anytime soon.
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Christy Shepherd,
The undisputed prophet of Patriarchy is R. L. Dabney, a Civil War era orthodox Calvinist. ALL of theses movements, I repeat, ALL of these movements find their roots in the Reformed tradition. The Puritans were the first to bring slaves to colonial America. Ideology drives behavior.
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“The Puritans were the first to bring slaves to colonial America. Ideology drives behavior.” And, I am beginning to understand, slave owners justified their practices with “Biblical” arguments that are difficult to distinguish from the arguments now being made by patriarchists to justify the domination of women by men. Some are born to be masters. Others are born to serve. It’s all part of God’s plan for an orderly society. Then again, you can still find evangelicals who argue that, according to the Bible, slavery is an acceptable practice.
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Gary,
Right.
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To repeat a point that others have made, “submission” in Arabic is “islam.” Except that it seems that this “islam” is related to the Semitic “shalom” (both words being designated by the consonants S-L-M) and carries the idea of “entrusting one’s wholeness to another.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0-L-M
Well, I am in no position to opine on how all this translates into Islamic practice, but I do suggest that these wife spankers go way beyond the Christian ideal of that VOLUNTARY and MUTUAL submission which might naturally be expected to yield peace/shalom/wholeness. These patriarchists are advocating and practicing the imposition of INVOLUNTARY servitude. Having been denied the ability to own people of sub-Saharan descent, they now treat their wives and children as slaves.
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This practice makes me want to retch, JA. And I think while it is gaining some prominence in a few well-known Reformed churches, it is by no means a hallmark of Reformed churches in general and it certainly is not found in the Scripture that informs Reformed doctrine. Rather, these practices are a perversion just like the ones seen in the Holiness movement, Arminian churches, Orthodox and Catholic and other faith circles.
For example, as The Wartburg Watch reported last year Bill Gothard (one of the biggest perpetrators) has actually rejected many of the principles developed during the Reformation. It may be easy to lump him in with evangelicals and perhaps some might want to say he’s Reformed when looking at how similar his teachings are to some in today’s post, but he is no more Reformed than a lump of coal.
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Gary,
Re: “Then again, you can still find evangelicals who argue that, according to the Bible, slavery is an acceptable practice.”
1. How do you define “evangelical”?
2. Please name two or more evangelicals who “argue that, according to the Bible, slavery is an acceptable practice.”
Thank you.
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Tim,
Thank you for a good explanation.
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Raswhiting: I won’t try to define “evangelical” for Gary, but I can name a couple of “patrigelicals”– Doug, and …. Doug.
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Tim,
The Reformation is NOT Biblically informed; viz, “Scripture that informs Reformed doctrine.” The Reformation was predicated on Augustine’s Neo-Platonism, and framed for the Reformation by Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation, and then articulated by Calvin in the Institutes. The on-topic relevance here is Platonic ideology that drives the tyranny that comes part and parcel with Calvinism. The present-day light form is more cultic by necessity because of the separation of church and state that led to the demise of the Puritans.
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PPT, I’ve read the Bible many times through, I’ve read books, articles and commentaries by Arminians, Dispensationalists and Calvinists for decades, and I’ve prayed much about the meaning of Scripture. I’m a five point Calvinist. You may think me a fool for that. Go ahead. But to say my doctrine is not Biblically informed is simplistic nonsense.
Blessings,
Tim
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P.S. And now I’m done on Calvinism, as this post is about wife beating and child abuse. My point was just to say that it is not restricted to being found solely in Reformed churches.
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Tim,
I am sorry that Calvin’s own admissions about progressive justification and its Platonist application to the Christian life is “simplistic.” Pardon me for taking Calvin at his own written word. So, where did you find progressive justification in the Bible Tim?
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Sorry Paul, but a comment section is a poor medium for debating doctrinal issues.
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Tim,
Especially since it’s a debate that you cannot win based on history and doctrine.
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Thanks Paul, blessings on you brother!
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Tim,
Blessings to you also, and as an olive leaf, let me concede that the Puritans didn’t hang Quakers and burn women at the stake just because they were five-point Calvinists.
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No matter what these people say, I don’t believe Christian Domestic Discipline is, or can be, truly consensual. The reason is that women are taught that they must consent because THE BIBLE. Because if they don’t consent they are displeasing to God. How is that consensual?
CDD is different from consensual sexual activity, however kinky. In consensual sexual activity of this nature, it is supposed to be limited only to sexual activity and is to be ceased immediately if either partner uses a mutually agreed-upon “safe word.” CDD, on the other hand, is practiced by the husband over the wife as a way of controlling her behavior– “discipline” is part of the title for that very reason. This is not consensual and is nothing more than a euphemistic cover for wife-beating.
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For which I am quite thankful, Paul, since my family heritage includes Huegenots escaping France to England in 1660 and then on to the American colonies in 1680, where some of them soon switched over to Quakerism!
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PPT, you claim that patriarchy began with R. L. Dabney? Seriously?! It started right after the Fall and has been with us throughout human history in almost every culture. We work with Amazon tribes, and patriarchy is alive and well in the rainforests without any help from R. L. Dabney. The problem is with the human heart. We think too highly of ourselves and not highly enough of those around us. Those with power tend to use it to dominate others. (Like males over females) Only through accurately understanding the Gospel can godly humility replace the ugliness of human pride. Boasting in oneself will then cease. We will begin to respect others enough to speak the truth in love and not in arrogance.
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” My point was just to say that it is not restricted to being found solely in Reformed churches.”
Very true, Tim!
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Christy,
Are we discussing spiritual caste in general, or the Patriarchy movement in particular? And I didn’t say the Patriarchy movement started with Dabney–please read my statements more carefully before you respond if you don’t mind.
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Let’s not forget this other disturbing trend that is pushing women into wearing head coverings and veils! RC Sproul Sr is an advocate of this and so is Mary Kassian. If you scroll down the page you will recognize some of the others as well. It’s all about power and control, especially over women. Just go look up headcoveringmovement.com
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BTW, this wife spanking thing is one of most disturbing things I have ever read .
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This article by Dr. George Simon at the website, A Cry for Justice, http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/potentially-abusive-personalities-some-red-flags-by-dr-george-simon-jr/, may be helpful in recognizing men who may be more prone to abuse, including so-called domestic discipline.
Here is a relevant excerpt:
“Attitudes of “ownership” – In my books I describe a type of thinking I call “possessive thinking” and a mindset of ownership that accompanies it. Basically, this is a way of thinking about other people as if they were objects to possess and possessions to hold. Possessive thinkers believe that their relationship partners don’t really have identities or rights of their own. Rather, they think of their partners as personal property. This kind of thinking is often reflected in their words and tone when speaking about others, referring to them in a manner that suggests that their spouse or their child inherently must defer to them simply because they are theirs.”
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PPT, such rudeness
“Especially since it’s a debate that you cannot win based on history and doctrine.”
Is really ugly.
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“Sorry Paul, but a comment section is a poor medium for debating doctrinal issues.”
I don’t think the Calvin/Arm debate will be resolved on my blog, but I’m always amused when people attempt it.
Thanks for keeping it respectful. 🙂
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Ellen,
That was pretty tame for Paul. 🙂
Welcome to the blog. It’s great to have you here.
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Excellent quote, Raswhiting. Just reading it got my dander up. It was spot on.
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“That was pretty tame for Paul.”
Really? *shudders*
Thanks for the welcome, Julie. And thank you for your work exposing abuse.
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Ellen,
I see, and me being lectured in regard to the proper venue for my speech is not condescending? Biased much?
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PPT,
Your behavior has discredited whatever it is you have to say.
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Sorry to lose you Ellen, Just so I know whether to shut down my blog or not, do you speak for everyone?
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So sad. Blessings on your house, Paul.
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Thank you Ellen, and I promise to work really hard on worrying about what people think of me.
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Come on, Paul, Ellen does have a point. If the tone comes across abrasive, it’s hard to want to listen to the heart of the message.
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I’m sorry PPT. I will try to be more careful in the future. However, by focusing on scapegoating calvinism as the source of this problem (as you are doing), you miss the crucial point that because other groups are also guilty of this abuse, your premise is wrong. I get it that you hate calvinism, but don’t let that bias blind you to the real cause: the prideful human heart that is not truly humbled by the Gospel. One must be convinced of and transformed by the Gospel in order to produce godly fruit. True humility cannot be faked. Boasting, arrogance, domination of others, are just a few characteristics of an unbelieving heart. It is dangerous to think that such deceitful pride can only affect others and never us.
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Wife spanking (beating) has no place in any tradition, Arminian, Calvin, and all there is between the two. How did Sproul and others ever convince anyone with a brain that there is something “spiritual” about this heinous practice. I agrees with Jaysgirl84 above that this is incredibly disturbing.
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Jaysgirl, I just went to that headcovering website that you linked. Thank you for the link, though scrolling through the site made me profoundly sad. Somehow I was reminded of a culture in Marion Zimmer Bradley’s fantasy setting, where the women were chained. Wealthy women born into the culture wore their golden chains with pride. In one particular story, it was made clear that the higher the woman’s status, the shorter her chains (in one character’s case, she could just reach her mouth with one hand, by pulling to the limit of her chain, which drew her other hand in to her waist), in part to show off the fact that she didn’t have to do any work.
The advertisement for “pretty” headcoverings on the webpage made me think of the chained woman in the story, proud of her golden chains because they were made of gold — and because they were so short (which showed that her husband was a rich and powerful man) — she gloried in her limitation.
The culture portrayed in MZB’s world is definitely patriarchal, but she gives her characters an “out” in that they can leave their society and join a women’s society (the Free Amazons). Interestingly enough, the way she writes the Free Amazons, they have their own rules and limits.
But I digress. My point was that patriarchal women I know wear their invisible chains with pride, looking down on their “free” sisters with pity or contempt.
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Wow! Was I ever shocked to find Sproul and Ryrie’s names at headcovering.com!
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@ Julie Anne: I have no problem conceding that point.
@ Christy: We are saying the same thing really. The logic that drives this is the same spiritual caste that calls for other mediators between God and mankind other than Jesus Christ. Hence, ALL camps that hold to that mentality WILL produce spiritual abuse. And Calvinism is one of those camps. You and I agree on this.
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…except I think that you object to the idea that Reformed elders act as mediatiors between God and parishioners.
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troy56, I just read a quote and an article on the website that was taken from Sproul’s writings and I can’t see that he is promoting headcoverings. Is there another article I missed? We ought to be cautious about putting words in the mouths of others. On the other hand, if he has come out in favor of headcoverings and has said so in no uncertain terms, I would like to know. Here is a link to the article: (which, I admit, I rapidly skimmed — but the gist I got was that he was rather cautioning against legalism)
http://www.headcoveringmovement.com/articles/head-covering-and-hermeneutics-an-excerpt-from-knowing-scripture-by-r-c-sproul#more-1504
If his writings are being used, are they being used with his permission? (The article I read and linked here said that it was used with the publisher’s permission, doesn’t say anything about the author.)
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Refugee, I agree. I would be surprised if Sproul said this. But, hey, this post has held many surprises for me.
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Question: Is this not a fair question? Calvin believed in the “power of the keys” which holds to the idea that elders have the authority to forgive sins committed after salvation. He believed that sins committed in the Christian life separate us from grace, and forgiveness for those sins can only be found in the Reformed church. In my mind, this inevitably leads to abuse.
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…No?
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