Does the Doug Phillips et al Brand of “Biblical Patriarchy” Groom Stay-at-Home Daughters to be Victims of Abuse?

*     *     *

In some conservative Biblical Patriarchal circles, young ladies remain at home, sheltered, under the protection of their father.  They are generally not allowed to work outside the home or attend college.  This is in order to “protect” them from worldly influence.  Could this practice be setting up these young ladies for abuse?

*     *     *

And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;

Philippians 1:9-10

*     *     *

I wanted to start off with this Young Turks Video discussing The Christian Patriarchy Movement or Stay-At-Home Daughters movement.  The Young Turks appeal to a secular crowd and it’s interesting to see how they analyze it.  I think their analysis is quite good.  Oh, and the feminism part at the end, if you think those ideas are whacked and there is no way a Christian would say those things, think again and Google search Kevin Swanson.  Kevin Swanson is part of this movement, friends with Doug Phillips and he regularly spews rhetoric so vile that the secular media has a heyday with it.  Gotta love that kind of “representing Christ.”

*     *     *

Warning for mild profanity and plenty of snark.

*     *     *

The above video has good discussion on some of the basics of Patriarchy.  However, what happens at a deeper level with the young ladies as they mature into adulthood and beyond?  

Although, the young woman involved in the Doug Phillips affair has not been identified, it is commonly known that she was young, probably just 18 years old when the relationship started.  The relationship may have lasted 10 years.  Ruth left a comment on the previous article that I was so glad to see because it’s been something that I’ve spent time thinking about, too, as far as the long-term effects of living in at home as a stay-at-home daughter.

Some people have suggested that this “affair”  (not the “Biblical know” kind of affair, as Phillips was compelled to point out) was not an abusive relationship.  I completely disagree because the young ladies who are from these circles are often repressed emotionally, unable to make the kinds of decisions that others outside the Homeschool Movement circle may be able to make much more prudently.

The big question is:  do these young ladies even possess the skills to be able to protect themselves in this environment?

*     *     *

1461009_651108804942026_1915779201_n

This picture was taken by my friend, a young lady who was part of the church/cult group I was in. Isn’t it beautiful?


Ruth

NOVEMBER 30, 2013 @ 7:51 PM [EDIT]

Long time lurker, first time poster. What has brought me here is trying to better understand the young women I’ve come to know personally over the last year who have been severely damaged by biblical patriarchy, spiritual and physical abuse in their religious environments, and yes, autocratic fearful, ignorance based homeschooling. The plural of anecdote is not data of course — I speak only of personal observation and a long life lived. Nevertheless, these young women who have tried to venture out into the world beyond their homeschool patriarchy silos are damaged, not by the world, but by being unprepared to deal with it. They were crippled before they ever left home. It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there and the enormous cognitive dissonance it creates when the fabric of their childhood unravels.

With all due respect, if these young, dependent, overly sheltered homeschooled young women had been exposed to the women I know who are in college environments, my professor friends and peers, or if they had met the “worldly” young people I know in college themselves or recently graduated, maybe these stay at home girls might have learned about basic things, such as what inappropriate touching is, and words such as “no.” As someone pointed out regarding Phillips’ abused victim, she would have been safer in college than as a stay at home daughter. Keeping her under cover of her father and Phillips didn’t protect her — it groomed her to be an abuse victim. Sending a homeschooled, sheltered son or daughter to college or otherwise out into the world without having ever learned to question authority and think critically would be dangerous and could be devastating but the problem isn’t with the college. It’s the mindset that elevates unquestioning obedience to earthly male authority and teaches her that she’s nothing but a womb waiting to be filled.

I firmly believe that I keep my children “safe” by equipping them with knowledge, skills, and the ability to think critically, by teaching them how to listen, and how to make good decisions for the day when I’m not there.

Lady Lydia responded:

“It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there.”
Ruth, what lies are you referring to being taught at home? What you describe doesn’t sound like our home or ANY homeschool environment I know. Sounds like major broad brush stereotyping to me.

Ruth followed up with a response to Lady Lydia:

Am I stereotyping, LL? Well, I was writing anecdotally, which I conceded. However, I think examples of what I write are well documented in the spiritual abuse survivor communities and religious progressive blogsphere. As I understand it, dissonance is cited as the reason why there is, apparently, a growing discrepancy between young and old evangelicals/fundamentalists on the issue of LGBTs. Ultimately, once exposed to say, an LGBT person or a liberal feminist, they can’t reconcile what they were taught with the reality of the person they meet and have come to like and respect. This extends to a critical examination of previously accepted factual, historical, scientific, and even Biblical information as well. You see examples of this painful reassessment process over and over in the spiritual abuse survivor communities, as these people present what they were taught, analyze it, and painfully come to realize that they can no longer accept it as true.

*     *     *

213 comments on “Does the Doug Phillips et al Brand of “Biblical Patriarchy” Groom Stay-at-Home Daughters to be Victims of Abuse?

  1. I agree. But, I also take heart in the parable of the unjust judge. If the unjust judge can grow weary of being “pestered” by the widow, how long will God wait to answer the continual faithful cry of a widow for herself and her fatherless daughter?

    Like

  2. I also pray that it is God that you are depending on and not the job you think He provided you with.

    Your words are coming across a little bit like the Word Faith movement – – – – as in: I have faith that God will take care of me and my material needs. God does give us skills to use to provide for ourselves.

    Like

  3. Adam 1776. Please butt out of Joannah’s life. God has provided for her and she is content with that – why are you questioning what God gave her? Ever heard of the analogy of the person stranded on a roof who prayed for help? A boat came by, and said person said “no thanks, God’s gonna provide”‘ then a helicopter came by, same response. Person dies, goes to heaven, asks God “why didn’t you help me?” God says, “what do you mean? I sent you a boat and a helicopter!”

    Sounds like God sent Joanna a helicopter. Quit trying to convince Joannah to tell the helicopter “no thanks ” .

    God may or may not have another husband for her. You do not and cannot know what God has or does not have for her.

    Quit trying to shame her while at the same time revealing your OWN demand that God fill her needs YOUR way.

    Also please quit haranguing another man’s widow.

    SHAME ON YOU for harassing a WIDOW for doing nothing more than providing for her daughter.

    Have you ever MET a widow? Don’t you know that they regularly cry themselves to sleep?

    HOW DARE YOU PICK A FIGHT WITH A WIDOW.

    Like

  4. I believe that the Bible speaks to every area of life, especially for the widow and the fatherless. I believe that God answers prayer, especially for the widow and the fatherless. If you feel it is necessary to proceed as you do, I don’t judge you. You do what you believe you have to do. I can’t fault you for that. May God be gracious to you and to your daughter. May your family and local church surround you with love and support. May God bless you with another husband and a father for your daughter. I think these are good things to continue to pray for, don’t you?

    If Joannah were at your church, how would you counsel her? To remain at home waiting for manna from heaven? And what if your church failed to meet her physical needs? Then what? She needs to keep waiting it out and have faith and trust in God?

    Like

  5. No, Julie Anne, just the Bible. The question at hand is how is a young widow with a young child supposed to survive in the world? Do you think the Bible addresses this? Or is she left on her own to “figure it out herself?”

    Like

  6. But to pray for the strength and contentment to live with my circumstances as they are is also good.

    To be content with not enough food? To be content with no medical insurance and no ability to take care of medical needs? Oh, what about heat for the house?

    I have no idea if Joannah faced any of these challenges, but know single moms who have. Funny how a man can tell a woman how to respond when a crisis. Would a man wait around? It sure looks like the Proverbs 31 got busy to provide food/clothing for her family. Joannah – good for you! You are like the Proverbs 31 woman!

    Like

  7. Please make sure you quote what you are responding to, Adam. It’s hard to follow otherwise.

    The Bible addresses it pretty well in Proverbs 31 – – that woman did provide food and clothes for her family. Joannah is doing just that. What’s the problem?

    Like

  8. I thought Adam is all over the “men are the protector” role and here he is haranguing a WIDOW. Not very nice, not good manners, not very manly of you ADAM.

    Not ” protecting the widow” here, are you ADAM?

    I’m mad.

    Like

  9. Julie Anne, if you could wait for my answer instead of posting something else right away, there would not be the confusion. :>) I think the Proverbs 31 woman is one of the most misapplied passages around. It’s a whole other thread. I’m not interested in debating this at this point as I don’t think it is helpful for Joannah right now. It is a legitimate concern that she may be trusting in the job rather than God answering her prayer for a husband and father for her daughter, which Joannah believes God will provide. I prefer to support her in this effort.

    Like

  10. I see it this way. God has worked all things together for good. I did not understand or enjoy all my single years prior to marriage, but in that time I was able to gain a great deal of education and establish a career – a career my daughter and I need in light of the fact that Michael is not here. My heart is to be home, but God has provided my parents with the good health and desire to care for my daughter while I work. My daughter is incredibly blessed by her time with them.

    My grandmothers were two of the most godly women I have ever known. My father’s mother was widowed twice! While she lacked an education, she was able to provide for her three boys by working in the aerospace industry during WWII and beyond. My other grandmother was a teacher for many years, as her husband’s income was not enough for their family. She was widowed fairly young, and God provided for her through her teachers pension.

    Lastly, I have positively impacted many young people in my 18 years of teaching. I just ran into the parents of a former student this past week. They told me I was the only teacher who ever “got” him. He’s flourishing as a senior at Loyola Marymount. I’m a small part of his success. God has used me to bless my students.

    Like

  11. Because Adam is stuck in the OT and does not understand that Jesus replaced all of the rules with two commands. Love God and love everyone. And pointed out that Adam has not done the one thing that Jesus commanded him to do, and that is to ensure, from Adam’s own resources, EVERY need that Joannah might have, because she is a widow. Where is your offer to help Adam. And I will assure you that Joannah has more financial ability than I have, or I would be making that offer today, because I give away my time to help the poor fight injustice, to keep the poor from being incarcerated for offenses that the wealthy would walk away from, to keep the poor from being raped, financially, by the financial industry that wants the little the poor do have.

    Do not criticize Joannah unless you are willing to send her a monthly check enough for her heat, light, and grocery bill.

    Like

  12. Julie Anne said, “Why ARE you picking a fight with a widow? That is a good question. Who are you to question her choice in providing for her family?” I’m sorry to say that is a woefully inaccurate conclusion to make. My only concern is for Joannah and that her prayers for a husband and father for her daughter be answered. The whole tenor of my conversation has been respectful and supportive of Joannah. You just disagree with my perspective,

    Like

  13. Joannah – Amen & Amen. Please ignore Adam and his extremely insensitive, cruel remarks to you. Yes, cruel.

    You are a cruel man, Adam.

    There are widows that I am extremely close to. I know how very hard it is to lose the man you love.

    Thank God he had provided for you AND for your daughter! How precious that He has given her Grandparents who can help with her care!

    I am so sorry for any pain this thread has caused you.

    You are a brave, noble daughter of God.

    Keep your head up sister and your eyes on Jesus.

    You are like Ruth who worked everyday to support herself & her mother in law.

    Ruth did not wait for something to be handed to her. She worked. In the fields, with the men.

    God blessed her efforts. She wasn’t pining away at home.

    You are a Ruth – don’t forget that.

    Adam – quit bugging Ruth.

    Like

  14. It is a legitimate concern that she may be trusting in the job rather than God answering her prayer for a husband and father for her daughter, which Joannah believes God will provide. I prefer to support her in this effort.

    I don’t know, adamsmith1776 – – how is that supportive? How does that put food on the table? I mean, if you really wanted to be supportive, you could offer to send her $$. That would demonstrate real support to me.

    Like

  15. They told me I was the only teacher who ever “got” him. He’s flourishing as a senior at Loyola Marymount. I’m a small part of his success. God has used me to bless my students.

    Congratulations, Joannah. That is the highest form of compliment.

    Like

  16. My only concern is for Joannah and that her prayers for a husband and father for her daughter be answered.

    Why are you assuming that God is not answering her prayers? I don’t find your conversation supportive whatsoever. It seems you think she should remain at home praying for God to provide – – – meanwhile, who will be paying for her food/heat/medical insurance?

    Like

  17. Typical. As soon as there is a challenge to do something (send Joannah $)…

    Adam’s outta here!

    Which is why women need to be educated.

    Point proved.

    Thanks, Adam

    Like

  18. Yes Adam is a religious bigot yellow bellied, stinking skunk to criticize a widow for working in a profession that provides for her and her daughter and also enables her to help young people succeed in life.

    Like

  19. An Attorney – I agree 100%.

    He’s an absolute pious jerk to pick a fight with a widow.

    And he *thinks* he’s religious. What a laugh.

    Like

  20. One of the first books of the Bible I reread after Michael went home was Ruth. So much good stuff in there. Ruth was doing what she needed to do, and God did bless her with her kinsman redeemer.

    I’m here at SSB because I was engaged earlier this year to a man following the Vision Forum/Patriarchy philosophy. The thing is, he was a liar. He did not disclose his full worldview to me. I was open about my faith, and when he inquired about how I felt about the law (remember, I had no context for why he would ask me that), I told him I was all about grace, and that I was not interested in legalism. I even gave him a copy of Chuck Swindoll’s book The Grace Awakening. But, he’d decided that I was what he wanted, and so he obscured his real self and beliefs. Thankfully, he lost it three months before the wedding, and he revealed an ugly temper and a mean-spirit. After that, I did some sleuthing to figure out where he was coming from. That’s when I discovered Vision Forum. He confirmed that he had taken his family to their conferences, but assured me that he did not care for them. Whatever. In my opinion, he and DP are cut from the same cloth.

    I walked away from the opportunity to be a SAHM. I would rather work than live under legalism. I would rather remain single than marry a man like that.

    God spared my daughter and me what surely would have been a miserable existence, and I am grateful for His protection of us.

    Like

  21. Good for you, Joannah. Some of the most miserable women I know are married to VF/Patriarchy husbands. Truly. They are miserable and so are their kids. I’ve seen stuff you wouldn’t believe.

    Glad you ran away from him. You made the right decision.

    Like

  22. And ADAM 1176 fully displays the ugliness of many of the patriarchal men that I have been around.

    He’s mean, arrogant, and cruel all the while deluding himself that he is a spiritual giant of some kind. Gross.

    Like

  23. God spared my daughter and me what surely would have been a miserable existence, and I am grateful for His protection of us.

    I’m so glad he revealed his true colors to you!

    Like

  24. Me too! Took a couple of weeks for my heart to catch up with my head, but everything worked out really well. I try to keep his three kids in my prayers. They are going to be woefully unprepared for real life.

    Like

  25. adamsmith1776 asked: “is the solution for our daughters and wives to “become their own people” and “become successful independent individuals?”

    The Bible say: “1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”
    The “he” in the text is generic – the Greek in the text give no indication of gender to the command. (I would still suggest that it is not God’s will for anyone – male or female – to be independent of God, and independence should be in the sense of making a living without begging.)

    WomanforFreedom asked: “why SHOULDNT that be a good solution, I’m confused??”
    adamsmith1776 said: “WomanforFreedom, what DOES the Bible say IN SUPPORT of your position?”

    Adam, where does the Bible say men should be successful independent individuals? It seems you want to deny some thing to women because the Bible don’t spell it out they can have it, but you don’t want to deny the same thing from men because the Bible don’t spell it out they can have it.

    adamsmith1776: “I also pray that it is God that you are depending on and not the job you think He provided you with.”
    Adam, how do you get your money? Are you depending on God or your job for an income? If you can ask that of her, the same can be asked of you?

    Like

  26. “! think the Proverbs 31 woman is one of the most misapplied passages around.” Yes, indeed, Adam, it surely is misapplied. It is misapplied by forked-tongued men like you, that say they want to protect women, & all the time you are talking,you are getting your claws into a woman who is a widow, and therefore does not have a husband to take you & shake you till your insincere teeth rattle.

    Be afraid, Adam. Be very afraid, for the Lord God Almighty, Creator of the Universe is watching & listening, & one day, if you carry on as you are, you will all too soon be hearing Him say those dreadful words, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you”.

    Like

  27. “And my apologies to all of the skunk’s in the world, you did not deserved to be compared to Adam.”
    That is too true, An Attorney, but I liked ‘hearing’ you call him that just the same. Besides, you didn’t compare him to regular skunks. Just the “yellow-bellied stinking skunks”. The ordinary black -and-white variety most likely agree with you.

    Like

  28. Joannah, the most saintly women I ever knew were widow ladies. Neither ever topped 5 feet in height, but either one on her own could have taken Adam, tied him in a knot, and tossed him to a pack of rabid hyenas, without ever taking her “off” hand from stirring the soup pot.
    I know this because they were my grandmother & my great-grandmother. They worked 12 & 14 hours a day to support invalid husbands, & made ends meet by praying their grocery lists when there was no money for food for their families. God bless them both, those two dear women loved & served their Lord & Saviour just as you are doing.
    God bless you, you are an inspiration to us all. (Especially cranky old ladies who have no patience with idiots like Adam).

    Like

  29. Thanks for your support, everyone. I am no saint, but I am a child of the One True King. I have had the worst possible thing happen to me, and the Lord has proven Himself to be faithful.

    Like

  30. adam, you wrote: “I believe that the Bible speaks to every area of life, especially for the widow and the fatherless. “

    The way you interpret this is immature. Think about it a little more deeply. Does the Bible speak to your car, to the bridge you drive over, to physical or mental illness, to the organization of nations, to the computer you use? If you meant, instead, that there are general principles in the Bible that can be applied to all creation, you would be more accurate, but you don’t mean that, because you write cavalierly and judgmentally about this widowed woman you don’t know.

    It is not the Bible that we base our lives upon. Our lives are based in God who resides within us. The Bible is a book that provides general principles for our *walk with God*. Instead, you treat it like a magical recipe book, something children do out of ignorance and uncertainty about how the world functions.

    You further write, “I believe that God answers prayer, especially for the widow and the fatherless.”

    The way you interpret this is also immature, and in the same way. God does indeed hear our prayers but answers are not always to our liking or preference. Yet you insist that God would not wait long to give exactly what you think is required to a “continual faithful cry”. And when God doesn’t cough up your list like Santa, it is because the prayer was done wrong, laying yet another burden on an already burdened human. Thus, your immature thoughts degrade the very type of person that scripture repeatedly tells us we are, above all, to protect/support/nurture. This, if nothing else, shows the foolish thinking.

    Underlying your comments is a third naïve idea, regarding the nature of the female and the supposedly authoritative position of a male. The fact is that women were created beautifully by God, and in such a way that they are whole and complete in themselves, not only when with a man. Pay attention to what is in front of you; it is obvious! The fact is that God didn’t create men inherently possessed of truth or wisdom: take a look around and see! And since these things are apparent, why would God hand men perpetual authority over women? It only creates twisted and heavy pressures for both genders, such as you do. God is not a fool! He loves us all!

    How grateful I am that God is neither immature or cavalier! God tenderly watches over everything that S/He made so beautifully, with clear wise eyes.

    Like

  31. This thread brings up many issues in the modern church.
    I woke up this morning thinking about how I used to read the epistles and think everything applied to the modern church. I used to read the entire Bible that way, even the O.T. because I was taught that every word applied to believers.
    In the O.T, I don’t believe anyone went hungry because the families all lived together in a tight knit Jewish community. If someone died, the family was there.
    We live in a very different world. Just with the advent of jet liners, to be able to live and travel to any place in this world, did not exist in Biblical times. Even mass transportation to work, and automobiles….etc

    The dynamics of the “family” is not what it was…men leave their wives of 35 years to trade her in for a newer model.
    What is a divorcee supposed to do according to Adam?

    Which brings me to another thought.
    Does the “church” really take care of the widows?
    I once sat next to a widow in my old megachurch who just moved to my area. She said her HOA fee was 75.00 higher than the last state she lived in and was considering getting a part time job, ASIDE from her full time job as a secretary, so she can tithe 10% to this church. She was a new convert from the RCC and I explained to her that the church is supposed to take care of HER, and she should not tithe!

    I have never heard, in the 8 yrs I was there that widows should not tithe.
    In fact, the Pastor used to use the story of the “Widows Coins ” to I guess guilt the widows into tithing!

    OK, a lot more….but we are not living in the same world as was in Bibilcal times.

    Also, divorce was not rampant like it is today.
    Which brings up another subject.
    A Christian woman’s husband divorcing her with no biblical grounds for it.
    Trading her in for a newer model.

    What would Adam say about that?

    Like

  32. It is interesting that it is almost always men who come riding in on their high horses, delivering narrow, legalistic, demeaning comments. They show the illegitimacy of their POV by their own actions. Humbug

    Like

  33. Sorry for the repetition of the divorcee. I though I deleted the initial paragraph…

    There really is not much in the Bible about it, except that if a man divorces a woman, she is committing adultery if she remarries.(Through no fault of her own) We can probably have a huge discussion on that.

    Like

  34. Agee 100%. Adam 1776 is a very good example of the “godliness” of the patriarchal men I’ve been around. And he doesn’t even know the 2 most important rules given to him by Jesus – love God, love others. He loves neither, but he DOES love his own intellect, his own interpretations, his own “wisdom”. He loves himself.

    Like

  35. Yes, Jesus is watching and he IS the defender of the widow. And Adam should be very afraid for his behavior towards one whose plight is close to God’s heart.

    Like

  36. Hannah, yep, we don’t live in the same world as in Biblical times.

    The underlying principles of, say, caring for the widows and orphans (the disabled and poor) are Biblical. How these principles apply depends on context. This isn’t relativism, as many of the literalists insist, because the principles themselves remain.

    In fact, when the literalists apply their rules, they become relativist because they change the underlying principles by focusing only the “constancy of surface application”. You point this out beautifully by noting that the literalists think tithing is also the responsibility of the widow, orphan, disabled, poor, rather than understanding that the principle of tithing is to help such as them.

    Thus literalists, in their awe of scripture, end up defeating its meaning by their foolishness.

    Like

  37. Patrice

    Yes…I have been taught to interpret the Bible literally.
    That’s why I have problems with the reformed view of Gods covenant to Israel.
    Another subject…

    But being divorced through no fault of my own , I also have a problem with the biblical position that I am committing adultery in my present marriage.

    That doesn’t seem fair. It is OK for a widow to get remarried, but if a woman is a divorcee, through no fault of her own, she can not get remarried?

    Like

  38. Well, I see that while I was gone yesterday I missed all the incoming volleys from adamsmith1776. The real Adam Smith, of course, wrote the book “Wealth of Nations.”. Who knew that this wealth would be seen by the original Smith’s disciples as including the ownership of women by men?

    Snarkiness aside, adam is just one more example of the working out of the first man Adam’s ongoing sinful assault on Eve–specifically Adam’s domination of and rule over Eve. Gen. 3:16.

    adamsmith1776 may or may not be saved. I do not know. However, he obviously is not a follower of Jesus. Rather, he is a follower of the corrupt and love-free doctrinal traditions of men (and I mean men as opposed to women). Our Lord purchased freedom for all, without regard to gender. adam would enslave one-half of the blood-bought children of our Lord and God.

    As with all these other “Christian” bigots, adam is insensitive beyond my ability to comprehend, and I say this as one who is not himself particularly capable of empathetic identification. adam lives in a love-free zone. Therefore, he lives in a Jesus-free zone. He lives in a God-free zone. Therefore, his “truth” being devoid of love, is not truth. Bad fruit, bad tree.

    Like

  39. “I agree. But, I also take heart in the parable of the unjust judge. If the unjust judge can grow weary of being “pestered” by the widow, how long will God wait to answer the continual faithful cry of a widow for herself and her fatherless daughter?”

    “4 “For some time he refused.” Luke 18

    I don’t know? How long? How long did the widow pester the unjust judge? Days? Years? What does “for some time” mean? You know, it is dangerous to take a parable which is metaphorically teaching a principle to pray and not give up and consign it to absolutes such as timing. You have no idea how long the widow pestered the unjust judge. It is the PRINCIPLE involved. Not the timing. It is about being faithful.

    In the meantime, having a way to provide for children is a wonderful thing for widows/single moms. It is even better when the pay is decent. The church is certainly not doing it. In fact, they are asking THEM for money so the guru can live like a minor prince in his kingdom.

    We should also be very careful what we beg God for.

    Like

  40. “As with all these other “Christian” bigots, adam is insensitive beyond my ability to comprehend, and I say this as one who is not himself particularly capable of empathetic identification. adam lives in a love-free zone. Therefore, he lives in a Jesus-free zone. He lives in a God-free zone. Therefore, his “truth” being devoid of love, is not truth. Bad fruit, bad tree.”

    Great way to put it!

    A Love- free zone is a Jesus- free zone. Perfect metaphor!

    Like

  41. Hannah, “But being divorced through no fault of my own , I also have a problem with the biblical position that I am committing adultery in my present marriage.”

    Yes, I understand. I too am divorced through no fault of my own. My step-father (a good ole conservative Calvinist) made the same case to me: if I remarry, I will be committing adultery. I initially blew my stack at him, lol, but later we talked it out, and even though he never agreed with me, he at least understood my position as one of difference rather than immaturity.

    It is not the nature of God to punish the innocent. “Who is this god?” I asked my step-dad. “Oooh, it’s the God of the Bible. Who are you to question Him?” “Don’t throw God at me to shut me down!” I retorted. “You are merely presenting your interpretation of God, and it is a cold and inadequate god. From where did you drag him up?” w00t

    When looking at the principle underlying the heavily patriarchal societies of Biblical eras (which had internal structural problems—hence the many persnickety laws), the principle of not remarrying after divorce is intended to emphasize that when one does not learn the lessons of a failed marriage, and hasn’t taken the steps to correct those problems (in the heart, mind, psyche), the travesty will only be repeated. God doesn’t want us to repeatedly destroy ourselves and each other. The consequences of broken marriage is contained in itself—it is a time of hell for all and that is its judgment.

    If people like our exes took seriously the facts of failure, and learned all the lessons about themselves that went into the failure, and lived out new resolutions/understandings with humility over a long period of time, I would be inclined to say that God could pronounce them forgiven and sanctified into a possible new marriage. (It doesn’t happen all that often, but it does happen.)

    Seen in this way, a victim is also encouraged, by the principle, to take time/effort to learn what went wrong. I, a victim who tried for 19 years to turn a relationship of authority and control into one of love and mutuality, learned what to look for in a spouse. I learned why I was attracted to that type from the beginning and changed that within.

    When such work (repentance, the work of sanctification, restoration of the individual) is done, we might be ready again to marry, if someone eligible comes along. If so, that marriage would be one that is healing and healthy, in which God is ever-present with us in our joy.

    That’s how I look at it. Not everyone does, I know.

    PS: My step-dad gave my brother “permission” to remarry after he divorced, saying God doesn’t judge because his wife was “mentally ill”. Besides the hypocrisy of my step-dad (giving males breaks from the legalism), my bro didn’t learn anything from his first failed marriage (his wife was mentally ill, yes, but a big part of her illness was caused by how my bro treated her) and is now causing the same destruction in his second. Pffft.

    Like

  42. Patrice—good points.
    And the issue of “mental illness”,,I remember that was Charles Stanley’s reason for divorcing his wife..unless I got it wrong.

    Your step dad “giving permission”..wow.

    When I was remarried and not yet a believer, I wanted a Rabbi and a RC priest to marry us because in my ignorance that’s what I thought I should do. the Priest would not marry me because I was divorced. He wanted me to get a Jewish certificate of absolution)separate from my divorce papers–it was a “religious divorce” (I think called a “Get”) from my ex. I did not want to pay the 350.00 required, so we just went with the Rabbi! I wonder if according to Jewish law, I am still married to my first!
    I would have to look into that. Never felt the need before.

    Like

  43. A question arose here that has arisen recently on the Wartburg Watch. That is, whether God tells people whom to marry. Now I do not believe that he always does so, but he did in my case. I had been married before, and we divorced b/c she was sleeping around, got pregnant, had an abortion, and went back to sleeping around. Not my idea of marriage.

    Some time later, after over a year of being single, my family and some friends began praying about my being single. I also began praying that God would reveal to me whether I should marry again, and I laid a fleece out before him that, I would know that a woman was the right one and that I should marry again if she proposed. I told no one but God about this.

    Now 35 years ago, I was standing in the choir at church, singing the invitation hymn, eyes closed, praying as I always did. I “heard” “open your eyes and see your future.” It was in my head! I did, and a young woman that I had met two weeks previously was joining the church, shaking the pastor’s hand. In the two weeks following her joining the church, we were together on several occasions, and had a date, supper at her place and a movie to follow. And after dinner and before the movie, she proposed.

    Do not tell me that God does not speak, does not provide an appropriate mate, etc. I have 35 years of sharing life with a person that is an ideal partner for me. And I heard God speak. And I saw an answer to prayer. It does not always happen, but sometimes it does. BTW, my sin was not marrying a second time, but in marrying the wrong person for the wrong reasons the first time.

    Like

  44. Hannah, yes, would be fascinating to find out why the Rabbi thought it ok to marry you. My pastor-father married unbelievers because they were not “unequally yoked” and he saw himself also as a representative of the state as well as a religious figure. He thought the RC was the “whore of Babylon” lol so he would likely have found marrying you ok. Sheesh

    I wish you all the joy and freedom of our God. This God is immensely tall and wide and so are His/Her arms.

    Like

  45. Hannah: “There really is not much in the Bible about it, except that if a man divorces a woman, she is committing adultery if she remarries.(Through no fault of her own) We can probably have a huge discussion on that.”

    In the thread others link to here, some people recommend the writings of David Instone-Brewer on divorce. In short, part of it is that he says:
    The word that gets translated “divorce” in some Bible translations and “put away” in others is actually, in the original language, a word for separation without divorce: Men leaving their wives and they cannot legally remarry, but only “live in sin” if they find a guy again. And it is not blamed on the one woman who finds a man again after the other one left: While God blames people for their own sin, this time the leaving man is blamed for his (ex-)wife’s adultery. Does this mean that she, in the eyes of God, did not commit a sin?
    I won’t answer that, but I think of the story in Gen. 38, wherin the woman who did what she had to do was testified by Judah more righteous than him, who had a choice.

    Like

  46. Pingback: Why I Cannot Support Frontline Family Ministries’ Abuse Prevention Week: Part Three, Kalyn’s Secret (Continued) | Homeschoolers Anonymous

  47. Pingback: 4 Reasons Conservatives Should Join Liberals in Opposing the Duggars | Homeschoolers Anonymous

  48. Pingback: Pastor and Homeschool Leader Scott Brown Empathizes with Turkish President who says Birth Control is Treason | Spiritual Sounding Board

  49. Pingback: Setting the Boundaries | Homeschoolers Anonymous

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s