Mike Lawyer, Counseling, Abuse in Marriage, Abuse of Authority
I have been in contact with a woman named Gen, who has agreed to let me post this letter she received from Mike Lawyer, “on behalf of Christ Church Session.” Christ Church is Doug Wilson’s church in Moscow, Idaho. If you would like to learn more about Doug Wilson and his extra-biblical and spiritually abusive ways, see his name in “Categories” in the side bar.
Gen told me she was in an abusive marriage. She was not physically abused, but was emotionally, verbally, spiritually, and financially abused. She and her husband sought counseling, and were in counseling both together and separately.
Gen also told me that she didn’t respond appropriately to the abuse – that she reacted by yelling and crying. I don’t think that’s an inappropriate response to abuse, do you? That seems very normal. I’m not sure where she learned that she was responsible for her response, but that concerns me because it takes the focus off the perpetrator and places it on the survivor – as if they are both equal sinners.
This following letter was sent to Gen on January 18, 2018. Mike Lawyer has decided he knows her spiritual condition and has determined that she is not living up to being a proper wife, etc. Because of her “unwillingness” to deal with her sins, she is being put in church discipline.
It’s important to understand that Doug Wilson believes that husbands are the heads of the home. He believes in Patriarchy. If husbands are the priests of the home, who do you think they would believe first, the husband or the wife?
According to Mr. Lawyer’s Facebook page, he works at Christ Church as well as Center for Biblical Counseling (aka Nouthetic counseling). He is also an instructor at New Saint Andrews school in Moscow. Basically, his life seems to be very connected with Christ Church and Doug Wilson.
Here is an image of the letter Gen received:
Gen sent me this note via Facebook Messenger:
Text reads:
Initially, this letter was shared without consent from a secret Facebook group with out permission. This was not a local group. I’ve since given permission , selectively, to be shared while protecting my identity. Here are some important clarifications: I love my husband and he is not violent. I am safe as are my children. I want to seek outside counseling to work on marital issues.
I appreciate the concern from the Christ Church community, but I revoked my membership in October.
I do not have an attorney. I do not have a go fund me account. I do not have a Twitter account. I am not in control of what is shared or said on the internet.
I do feel this is an over reach of the church but I’m thankful for the time I’ve spent there and hope to keep friendships despite differences.
This is a breaking story and we will add more details when they become available.
***New update January 26, 2018: XianJaneway left a comment about church membership in the comments below. Here is the part of the comment that I want to address:
XianJaneway said: I spoke w/ a former Christ Church member who said that ONLY a man can revoke the membership, not the woman. It’s highly unlikely that Gen wrote this note. 😦 I’m really worried about her.
Today, I asked Gen specifically about Xian Janeway’s comment. This was her response:
They denied it [revoking her membership]. They didn’t say because I’m a woman. They said I’m a doubting Christian.
So, I asked Gen specifically if she believes in the essential doctrines of the Christian faith (Jesus paid for our sins by dying on the cross, He rose again, etc.). This was her response:
Yes, I do believe that.
She did admit the following:
I am questioning the interpretations, theology, ideologies, and applications of my faith, in my life.
Ok, that is not the same as doubting your faith or rejecting the essentials of the Christian faith. That is simply asking questions about secondary doctrinal issues. And in light of the fact that Gen has been at Christ Church which has Patriarchal teachings, and who knows what else, doesn’t it seem normal that she would be questioning these issues?
Yet in the letter, Mike Lawyer claims she has “denied the biblical Christ.” That is a LIE. This is inappropriate. And it is spiritual abuse. I am disgusted by the way they have treated Gen.
Gen, stay strong. We believe you. We support you!
Gen also wanted me to relay that she works full-time and has 5 children in the home, including one high-functioning child with autism.
~ja
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Not sure what “denying the Biblical Christ” means, but it seems that alone could warrant discipline without having to list the others.
In fact, it seems pretty much straining the gnat to say, “yeah, you don’t believe in Jesus anymore, but LOOK HERE how dare you treat your husband this way?”
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Boy I sure wish I could post a string of expletives right here. Mike Lawyer is an absolute turd.
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Seriously, though, I know about something similar. The husband was addicted to porn. The wife asked for a divorce. The church decided to counsel them because (of course) the marriage was salvageable. They said that porn wasn’t Biblical grounds for divorce.
Long story short, the husband “cooperated” with the church because the church became the arms and legs of his emotional abuse. As long as the husband could keep up the act “since then he has made significant changes in every area of family life” the wife was emotionally and spiritually abused by the church who wanted to see her change in a commensurate way.
Now, the punchline. She left the church and got a divorce. As soon as the church lost its ability to compound the abuse, the husband dropped the act. He stopped following their laundry list of requirements, stopped counseling and stopped attending. He ended up being excommunicated.
So, while I truly hope that the husband has changed from his patterns of abuse, my gut-level reaction to this is that he is keeping up appearances, because the cost of looking the part is greatly outweighed by the benefit of being the “good guy” as far as the church is concerned.
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Every time I hear or see the would submission I have a strong desire to cut myself.
The three groups of people that love this word: dog trainers, men who own little girl sex slaves chained up in bondage, and conservative Christian men.
Doug Wilson reminds me so much of my father and the loser unattentive child raping vomit that sexually abused me as a young child. He has all their same loser, insecure, needy, sexually sadistic, extream misogynistic fetishes. It is obvious slavery and rape turns the creep on.
These kinds of men are terrified a woman or girl is going to tell them no and leave them. They can obviously see they are the kind of men women and girls would want to tell no and leave. If you can not tell someone (((NO))) and leave them you are a trapped slave. My mother and I were my scum bag father’s trapped slaves. He had the odious selfish male mentality that is in this misogynistic letter.
The only way these Ariel Castro centric men can have females in their lives is if they have this; you cant leave me, you have to stay and kiss my selfish infantile bottom mentality. That is why they are drawn to these loser man cults.
This woman should give this letter to Raw Story.
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Mark – Most abusers are superb play-actors. All psychopaths are.
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So this is another ‘you can’t quit, you’re fired’ church response?
Also? I hate everything I’ve ever read from this lawyer person.
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Yes, Lea. It reminds me of my cult church experience. We left on our own accord and then a few weeks later he told us we were excommunicated and were shunned. Say WHAT??
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The whole letter reads like a parody. lol.
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Wait, she is refusing to meet with them, and they have determined her sins already (like having her children in daycare and not doing the majority of the housework)?! I’m pretty sure that there isn’t any proof text for that one, and I don’t see how that contributes to a toxic home. On top of the her revocation of membership 3 months ago!
I’m glad she wants outside counseling; I hope that will be with someone who is a licensed mental health professional.
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“This is not a threat, but it is a warning.”
Funny how these spiritually abusive men always say things like that. It’s basically saying, “Unless you comply with our demands and submit to our authority, you are in danger – because God is on our side.” (@#%&*)
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Dear Gen, I am so sorry for what has happened to you. Our daughter was also excommunicated from her church because of leaving an abusive marriage. The accusations against her sound very similar to the accusations they are making against you. Her church friends were told to “shun” her and the pain of that went very deep. She and her children moved in with us and later she got a divorce. So I understand what you are going through and will pray for you.
Please be assured that Jesus will never reject you. In fact, in John 9 the Pharisees practiced “church discipline” on the man who had been healed of his blindness by Jesus. Their “law” had been broken and their “church member” had disobeyed them and so they felt justified in throwing him out (9:34). However, when Jesus heard about this injustice he reached out to the man in love (9:35). Yes, the man was thrown out of the “church”… but Jesus wasn’t there anyway… he was outside the “church” and he received this man with arms of love!
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“We are really concerned for your eternal state.”
But, she’s not welcome at the Table of the Lord. (Does this mean communion only?)
Because they’re really concerned.
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Yes, Kathi, because they have deemed her unworthy to partake. Because they know her heart. And of course they have been in the house while all of this has taken place and can judge objectively (minus the fact that husband is head of home and they would defer to him first).
My sarcasm voice was on in case you couldn’t tell.
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I love your comment, Mary. Thank you.
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Oh, I can tell when your sarcasm voice is on! 🙂
I was curious about the statement that she is suspended from the Table of the Lord. If this refers to not being able to take communion, can she still attend the church? Or, does that mean she’s fully out the door?
I also love how they accuse her of refusing to meet with them. I’m sure that’s what they’re most upset about than anything else. She refused to allow them to tell her what to do.
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Kathi, I feel like I’ve seen several of these ‘we are super concerned that you aren’t doing exactly what the men folk tell you to’ letters. I think there is a template. I don’t think they realize how crazy it sounds outside of their patriarchal nonsense believing bubble.
JA, I got into an argument somewhere that a woman in a relationship is obviously in the best position to judge whether her husband is repentant, changed, abusive, etc. they got really angry at me because apparently that’s crazy talk – obviously some church dudes who think woman are all emotional liars who should sit down and shut up are the best judges of character in these situations. Sigh.
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Good for her. That’s smart.
I am learning from reading these stories that an endless series of meetings is a delaying/abusive tactic in a lot of churches. Best bet is to skip it and tell em to pound sand.
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I’m not sure of the specifics. I’ll see if I can find out.
It must drive them crazy that a woman has independent thought and can make decisions on her own without her church leaders.
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Gen, I believe you. I believe what the church is doing to you is wrong.
I encourage you to have a look at the FAQ page on A Cry For Justice.
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/faq/
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I spent a few years trying to engage with Pastor Wilson, to little or no avail. I rather like the man and I think it’s quite possible he just has some major blind spots when it comes to emotional abuse. I know about all the controversy, his history, but I genuinely wanted to have a discussion and to offer him some awareness of abuse issues, some skills that could help prevent future suffering in his church. Alas, he seems to believe he already knows everything, is not willing to discuss anything, and has now blocked me.
As to Mr. Lawyer, and his CBC, I flat out threw up and cried half the night after reading his blog and thinking about an abuse victim having to turn to him for help. Or any woman, really. That is just the most horrific thing I’ve seen in a long time.
As to the anonymous Gen, God bless her in seeking outside counseling, for finding a
new church, and for hanging in there with a desire to try to make her marriage work.
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Gen,
We are standing with you right now. You are not alone.
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As an agnostic or atheist (I have not decided which), I am the last person who is going to defend church elders or abuse of congregants. In this case, however, I think we need to be fair. The letter said that the individuals spent hundreds of hours with her and they acknowledged that the husband was acting inappropriate. Hundreds of hours is a whole lot and I doubt they charged her for any of it. Imagine what that would cost in terms of secular marriage counseling. They blamed him, as well, and they said he has reformed his behavior. She apparently has not and she is refusing to cook, clean and take care of the children. This is not exactly good behavior on her part, even if we take the religious elements out of it. She is not carrying her end of the marriage or the child rearing. What are they suppose to do?
She is a member of an organization and she is not following the rules. If she works full time, that is one thing. If she is a stay at home wife and she is not cooking, cleaning or taking care of the children and he has to do it all ….and go to work, that is quite another matter. They are basically telling her to shape up or ship out. Why is that so wrong? She is a member of a religious organization and she is not following their rules. I don’t think she is happy in the marriage and it sounds like she is not happy in this church. Perhaps she is depressed and would benefit from medical treatment for this problem. She might also see a physician about whether she is depressed.
My take on it is that the couple should try secular marriage counseling and she should take a break from this church for a while. I hope the couple can work it out. I do believe that when you don’t want to follow the rules of an organization in which you are a member, any organization, not just a church, you need to leave. You can’t stay in a particular church and then violate everything they believe in. Are we really being fair to the church administration in this case? Some of this responsibility falls on her. I got the impression that he is trying and made some changes.
Getting out of that environment is probably the best thing for her. She does not want them and it sounds like they don’t want her, either. If I were advising this woman, I would suggest that she and her husband try separate churches or a while and that she select a non-evangelical church. Fundamentalism may not be well suited for her. Perhaps rules of a different church will be more to her liking and she can better conform to the expectations of church membership in a less extreme type of church.
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Wow! But then I guess we shouldn’t really be surprised.
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The letter accuses her of not being a ‘good housewife’. That is, she isn’t keeping a clean house and cooking meals for her family.
So I’m wondering if this is true?
If it is true and she is essentially being lazy at home and not contributing to work around the house, I’m wondering if it’s such a wrong thing to have this addressed by the person selected to counsel the couple?
If I decided to stop cleaning, cooking and looking after my kids then I can’t imagine my husband would be pleased with this as he works FT and I’m at home all day.
If my husband raises this issue with me and I respond by ‘yelling and crying’ (as Gen admitted to doing) then is it possible that Gen actually does have some issues she needs to deal with?
Women and wives are not without sin.
I struggle daily with house works and cooking. Luckily I have a patient and helpful husband. Perhaps Gen’s husband is stressed from coming home from work and being left to do chores and tasks that would typically be taken care of by a SAHM?
The letter leaves a few questions unanswered.
Gen says her husband isn’t violent and she and her kids are safe so what’s the problem?
Her husband helps her with food prep and cleaning and she’s yelling and crying about what exactly?
Seems to me Gen might have some issues she needs to deal with here.
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Salty, we are missing a lot of context here but two things we know, gen says she is in an abusive marriage, not physical but in all other ways. Two we know this is doug Wilsons church and I don’t trust their opinion as far as I could throw it.
Also the letter says the kids are in day care so I doubt she is a stay at home mom. So both adults in the house should be doing housework.
Now in a real non crec situation, if someone who had previously been very industrious suddenly stopped my question would be what’s wrong? Depression?
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I have women in my family who go to school, work, take care of the kids, take care of the house, and take care of the yard without any help. I also have male cousins who work, cook, clean, take care of the kids, and take care of the yard without any help. It can be done. Of course, none of the women and men doing all of this are conservative Christian men. Conservative Christian men need the ego boost of having a trapped, subhuman, second-class, female slave at home taking care of all their selfishness.
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Salty,
She’s never going to be able to do enough housework to keep them happy when this is the pastor Doug Wilson who recommends church discipline if the wife doesn’t do the dishes fast enough.
Plus Doug teaches that “every wedding is a coronation.” That husbands have a right to be king. Notice how upset they are at her for not accepting that role. If you ever have time to read Doug’s awful books—it’s pure Divine Right of Kings philosophy. Same line of reasoning that cost King Charles I his throne.
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“The letter accuses her of not being a ‘good housewife’. That is, she isn’t keeping a clean house and cooking meals for her family.”
What is so wrong about this letter is that so SELDOM are grown women like errant kids willfully refusing to do their chores. More often what you have is a hyper critical, emotionally abusive spouse who does not value anything she does. No amount of childcare and housekeeping will ever be good enough.
Or, you have a wounded woman, depressed, resentful, overwhelmed, who is struggling to care for herself, let alone anyone else. Discipline is the worst solution for both of these issues.That is just like piling on the abuse, beating up on a woman who is already down.
Ideally, in a healthy church situation, a lot of sisters would step forward to help her with childcare, have a cleaning party, bake her some casseroles for the freezer, invite her to a bible study, show her that love and nurturing that she is not getting at home.
In a perfect situation, wifedom and mothering is emotionally draining, it depletes us, and women cannot give from an empty cup. Add in emotional abuse and you have a woman who is being drained of her ability to give to herself and others.
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Salty, this blog is for survivors to get support. It’s not for you to be the judge or wonder if someone is really a survivor. Your response is what helps keep survivor’s trapped. Reg is reading this. Do you think your comment is helpful to her? It’s not. Please stop.
You are also forgetting something very important. When someone is in an abusive marriage, they are likely depressed, have anxiety, are trying to survive and just waiting in anticipation for the next abusive event. If you don’t think this is going to have an effect on how they function in their daily lives, you need to think again. When I read that the husband was doing housework, immediately in my mind, I said, “good!” She needs a reprieve from emotional torment. I didn’t pity him whatsoever. Besides, if he has so much energy to be an emotional bully to her, he might as well put that energy to use doing something positive for the family.
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This is a wonderful point.
Of course the husband is doing cooking and cleaning and there is literally nothing wrong with that. Single people work full time and do all their own cooking and cleaning, unless they hire some of it out. I have little sympathy.
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This reminds me of Marie from a little over a year ago and Karen Hinkley. Many preachers get p*ssed when men don’t get their bottoms thoroughly kissed. They even think pedophiles deserve to have a trapped bottom kissing female at home. Yes, Doug Wilson arranged for a young woman to marry a pedophile; the pedophile then proceeded to be attracted to his newborn baby son. That is more traumatizing than a man having to take care of his self.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/12/21/why-wont-heritage-bible-chapel-let-marie-go-peaceably/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/26/part-2-the-village-church-doesnt-discipline-the-internet-child-sex-abuser-but-disciplines-his-wife/
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I am so confused! And all of these real-life situations — like the homeschooled kids being abused and this wife thrown out of the church — add to my confusion!
This stuff doesn’t seem to match up with the Bible. The Bible says God cares about the abused, the oppressed. It teaches that he will rescue them. But when does that happen? I don’t see cases of God directly intervening or the church loving and helping these people. Is it left unanswered when and where this will happen (it can’t be in heaven because we will all get the reward). Not seeing the oppressed helped begs the question of when those who disobey parents die young ( i can’t find any studies that confirm it) or whether it is true that you reap what you sow (even if this is only financial it may or may not apply). The family with mistreated kids had to rescue themselves! That brings me to the next problem.
The interpretation in the church that suffering is from God and also that in self-denial we are not to seek our own happiness as a priority (this is what nonbelievers do). So the kids should have stayed in the home that they were born into? Of course not. So we can rescue ourselves when we are unhappy? Of course not. When do we rescue ourselves and give God the credit for it— while others in the church shun us for not being longsuffering and obedient enough (from their outside perspective)?
Please un-confuse me! I do believe God is a loving God and cares about us. I am also in an unhappy marriage(?) and have a daughter who follows Doug Wilson and shuns me!
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Doug Wilson preaches a different god. If Jesus were here, he would be overturning the tables in many of the fundagelical churches for the very reasons he proclaims against the Pharisees.
The church has, by and large, returned to Pharisaism, by wrapping in in the ‘servant leadership’ lingo. That is, they aren’t legalists who are placing burdens on the saints. Instead, they are servant leaders assisting us in our sanctification process by giving us helpful reminders.
The god they preach is not a loving god, but a god primarily of judgment and condemnation who continually frowns on us.
I know this because I grew up in a denomination steeped in this error.
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Irene, my understanding on this is that there is no sickness in Heaven, no oppression, no sadness. God is bringing about a process by which his will is brought to earth (thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven), but there are still demonic forces and evil people and a broken natural order.
I believe God does use those who are willing to be used towards that purpose, but scripture says that it is the narrow path. For example, I believe God worked amazing things through Rachael Denhollander, but there was on Rachael and a whole lot more people who were behind Nasser allowing him to do his evil.
In Jesus’ time, the religious system wasn’t about bringing glory to God and transforming Israel into a just, fair and gracious society. Instead it became about bringing glory to the religious leadership and allowing them and their rich peers to oppress and treat people unjustly, all while grooming society into seeing them as holy men.
Jesus not only brought true justice and grace to the oppressed – the sinners and the outcasts, but he called out the “holy” people for their sinful hypocrisy, hatred and misrepresentation of God. For that, they brought up false charges against him and murdered him. As Jesus said, if they hate the master, they will hate the servants, so we should expect to be on the wrong side on the formal religious system when we follow in Jesus’s footprints, and ironically, it seems that the greatest opposition comes from those who claim to follow him, too!
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Gen, I am so sorry for what you are going through.(((hugs))) I grew up in a church like this, where even physically abused wives who left, were put under church discipline and not allowed to have communion, anointing, etc. I was never one who cared for or liked going to church, and now pretty much refuse to go. I cannot tell you how freeing it feels to not worry about pleasing some other person’s “rules.” My heart hurts for those women, like you, who are treated so poorly in the name of Jesus.
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Julie Anne,
1) She sent me AND Dee the same note, word-for-word. I have to wonder if her husband or someone else got ahold of her email. 😦
2) I spoke w/ a former Christ Church member who said that ONLY a man can revoke the membership, not the woman. It’s highly unlikely that Gen wrote this note. 😦 I’m really worried about her.
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“Please un-confuse me! I do believe God is a loving God and cares about us. I am also in an unhappy marriage(?) and have a daughter who follows Doug Wilson and shuns me!”
Irene, my heart goes out to you. I don’t believe you are as confused as you feel. I think you got it right. Indeed, God loves us dearly and actually wants us to find contentment, peace, love, joy, happiness even. These are fruits of the spirit!
A great deal of our own suffering is actually self inflicted or inflicted by those who have lead us astray. God does not make bad things happen to us just so we can suffer. Sometimes there are some real treasures to be found in our trials, sometimes they are like training us, making us stronger, wiser, more compassionate, but God does not dish out suffering like many of the people who surround Pastor Wilson seem to enjoy doing. That is flat out spiritual abuse, emotional sadism really, being falsely promoted as the gospel.
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My first impression is that this could be proxy abuse (husband engaging others who willingly enforce his “cause”). I wonder if her husband agrees with this letter, or if he is standing up and loudly protesting against the church session for doing this to her. Sounds like the husband is doing image-management with the church leaders, and blaming the wife for not cooperating sufficiently.
Gen has been “emotionally, verbally, spiritually, and financially” abused by her husband. Now she is getting spiritually abused. A delusional, drunk-on-authority, all-male elder board sends a full page, single spaced declaration condemning a woman for the shockingly depraved sins of… dusty furniture and daycare….
These guys would be laughable if the harm they did wasn’t so serious.
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XianJaneway, I have been in touch with her directly throughout the day yesterday. This was written by Gen. I knew she had been sending out the note and wanted to be sure that people included it with the letter.
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What? Good luck enforcing that in court.
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“These guys would be laughable if the harm they did wasn’t so serious.”
I have male cousins who actually do hard outdoor work and they would tell these men to grow the f*ck up! These men look like such babies and very Islamic to the real world.
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It’s kind of funny. These guys are all about men leading, providing, protecting, being strong. But in reality, for some, it’s just words to cover their weaknesses.
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That was my impression as well.
Their are SO many contradictions in patriarchal Christianity it’s hard to wrap your mind around it.
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Why can’t a woman revoke the membership?
This group of sexually sadistic men is scared women are going to wash their hands of them, and tell them what my mother should have told my father. You are simply not worth it, get lost and don’t find your way back.
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I grew up in patriarchal Christianity. We needed protecting from our own putrid patriarchal fathers, husbands, and grandfathers.
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SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW WITH GAWD’S ANOINTED JERK WITH HIS KIRK IN MOSCOW, IDAHO (Soon to be “DougWilsonRajneeshpuram”)?
Remember “The Man PENETRATES, COLONIZES, CONQUERS, PLANTS! The Woman lies back and Accepts!”?
Remember “Southern Slavery As It Was”?
Remember marrying off his Pet Pedo?
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@JulieAnne:
Posers.
Legends in their own minds, laughingstocks to everyone else.
Like Trids in my D&D days — whiny little wet noodles bragging to all around that they were Really Ninjas and Could Kill You All with their Little Finger.
Or the 400+lb (none of it msucle) Survivalists with a couple Goering’s worth of stolen valor pinned to the chest of their cammies bragging about how they’re Tough Enough to survive Nuclear War, and how “after push comes to shove” Human Flesh will be the most plentiful food source.
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@SongOfJoy:
Like that Austrian guy 70-80 years ago with the funny little mustache…
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@AvidReader:
His throne and his head.
(And the reputation of being the second-worst King in England’s history, second only to King John.)
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I was talking with my former pastor once, and he was describing how his view of church polity was superior to that of another local pastor. Former pastor thought of himself as a despot. Of course, he doesn’t tell his board this bit of insight – he just doesn’t think he answers to the board which is not happy with the pastor, and they’re losing membership.
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Doug Wilson and his disciples want all the rights of kings with none of the responsibilities! No matter how awful the “king” behaves he is never held responsible. They really need to read the story of Rehoboam and a brief history of Europe and Asia. There’s a reason we opted out of an absolute monarchy in America.
Doug Wilson’s assumptions that brutal husbands lording it over their wives and children are acting like Jesus Christ is blasphemous! And even the world sees how evil it is.
Unlike many here I consider myself a fundamentalist Christian and attend church regularly. For the sake of the Church we must purge this blasphemy from our midst or Jesus Himself will put out our lamp in America.
How dare men like Wilson tell men lording it over the “underlings” and beating women because they are the weaker vessels they’re doing what Jesus would do! I’m furious, not just for the sake of the women but for the sake of my LORD whom they are blaspheming! Since when do you break porcelain vases and shatter china plates just because they’re “weak vessels?” That weaker vessels argument just doesn’t cut it!
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Irene,
Sometimes there are really good reasons that people stayed in unhappy situations. This world is just a messed up place where even when we try to do everything right—people still choose to hurt us. Sometimes we really don’t have a lot of options for changing the situation.
It’s really natural to wonder where God is in all of this. Even Jesus—while He was in the most important event of His life (dying for our sins) even Jesus wondered where God was in that situation.
Don’t feel bad when you have those questions. It’s just part of living in the real world.
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@ Rachel Nichols
I grew up in an environment much like the one that turns Doug Wilson on. I don’t believe this group of men care if there is a God or not. Doug Wilson is polar opposite of the Jesus in the bible. He is the God of his own cult that caters to his misogynistic fetishes and insecurities.
Doug Wilson reminds me so much of my father. I told my mother when I was sixteen I wish she had aborted me and she told me she wished her mother had aborted her too. We both wanted to be dead because of the demeaning lives we had to live to pleasure my father, and the consistent hate speech about the female race that we were born and raised in. My sister and I are both atheists now and my mother is happier when she is reading Buddhist books.
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So here is the part I don’t get. Granted it sounds like there is a whole lot of patriarchy and unfair practices in terms of impact on the woman. I agree. I can’t judge the husband, the pastor or the church elders because I have not heard their side of the story. Honestly, it sounds to me like the woman is not upholding her responsibilities but so be it. Perhaps there is more to this story than is meeting the eye. I am big on meeting one’s responsibilities. I’d have to know more about her circumstances i.e. whether or not she is a stay-at-home Mom or whether she works full time. Are the children in day care because she works full time or are they there because she is not taking care of them, nor the house? WHAT exactly is she doing in terms of her responsibilities in the marriage? We don’t know any of this.
OK let’s give her the benefit of the doubt and say that the husband and the church are being abusive. Let’s say she is pulling her own weight and not slacking off. Everyone here seems to feel that is the case and what do I know. Then WHY do people stay in these abusive churches? I have yet to understand that. I am not a church goer and I am certainly not a Christian but there must be “nice” Christian churches out there. I personally have known some very nice ministers and I am sure they run their churches differently. If she is capable of holding a full time job outside the home, then she has to have enough smarts for self-determination. If she is not holding down a full-time job then she is SUPPOSE to cook, clean and take care of the children. That is her job. Help me understand WHY grown adults stay in these abusive church environments. If a person wants Christianity in their life and they also want church membership, why not join one of the many “nice” churches out there. At least one woman here has said how wonderful her church is. It sounded great to me based on her description.
Here is a question I would pose to everyone and this is a serious question for folks to think about. To what degree are we truly “victims” and to what degree are we responsible for the choices we make and the situations in which we are embroiled? I have known too many people in my own life who complain, complain and complain YET they never take any action to change anything. Are we responsible to take action in our lives to improve it or is everything which happens to us someone else’s fault?
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I could say a lot about the rest of your comment, but at the moment let me just address this because I feel you are being very harsh to the op, based solely on the letter written by a man who basically thinks of women as slaves. Which is probably not your best source.
Actions the op has taken:
Left abusive church
Started counseling
Realized counselors were ineffective and attempted to find better options.
So she deserves none of this blame from you! She is actively seeking better options and not complaining. In fact, according to her, the letter was initially shared without permission. That doesn’t mean we can’t rip it to shreds.
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@AvidReader:
Then Pastor Anglophile’s ripped off Byzantium.
I understand that in Eastern-Rite Liturgical Churches (Orthodox & Eastern Catholic), both bride and groom wear special and elaborate “wedding crowns” as part of the wedding liturgy.
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Lois, “Then WHY do people stay in these abusive churches? I have yet to understand that.”
There is a good article referenced at A Cry For Justice that explains it. There is a process of grooming, which is still relatively poorly understood, but it leaves the abused somehow emotionally unable to escape.
In the fundamentalist church, grooming happens like this:
– Parents groom their children to be obedient (Dobson says “break their will”) by using violence and coercion.
– The church reinforces the obedience message of the parents and adds that we are all “worthless” and worth of greater punishment for our sins then any human could dish out
– The church adds on to that message that just like parents, we ought to obey church leaders
– Just as parents raise children in fear of punishment, the church makes examples of people who strayed
– Parents and Church are very skeptical of outside influences and encourage their member families to isolate themselves from outside influences
– Parents and Church groom children/members to find their value in the opinion of people who matter (i.e. parents and church leaders)
One great point the article makes is that the grooming and abuse process is poorly understood, because we have a “violence” model. That is, unless there is a violent incident, there is no abuse. So, for example, when I mention this or that abusive situation in my family or church, the response is typically that I’m overreacting or hypersensitive. Again, that reaction causes the abused to doubt him/herself and potentially return to an abusive situation.
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I think in this situation, yes, it’s difficult for us to get the whole story, but when we look at patriarchal church patterns, we see common themes here.
One that has been briefly discussed is depression, and I’ll add another: the discipline “checkbox”. Typically, when people seek outside help, it is not a “I could use a little help” situation, but more a “I’ve tried everything and this is my last hope.” This is especially true in the fundagelical church, because every marriage is expected to be amazing and satisfying, so there is a lot of browbeating that happens when a couple admits that their marriage is neither, and is, in fact nearly destroyed.
So, the church, as it typically does, tries to resolve the situation. They identify the “sins” contributing to the marital issues and then pressure the parties to admit their faults and change. However, as often is the case, the church wants to pat itself on the back once justice is served, and in the case of marital issues, pressure like this rarely works. So, they “fixed” the husband and the marriage isn’t amazing and satisfying, so now they are going to turn on the wife.
The wife may have the satisfaction of “justice”, but mere justice doesn’t fix everything (think of the girls molested by Nasser. Are they happy and whole now that Nasser is rotting in jail? NO! They still have to wake up every day with the emotional trauma of the whole experience) So, now the church has moved on to the next day’s news and this woman is still reeling from the emotional trauma. So, now the church is going to apply pressure on her to snap out of the emotional trauma. Now she is bitter and unforgiving, and is wallowing in self-pity because the church doesn’t know how to actually bring the healing that is needed.
This situation happened, in this very church, with a sexual assault victim. The abuser got his wrist slapped, “repented” and moved on, and the church then washed its hands of the whole affair while the girl silently suffered without healing. (The man who “repented” went on to marry and abuse his wife, so we can probably gauge how rigorous the church discipline process was there for male abusers).
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Re: leaving abusive churches
People are told that the way of the abusive church is the “god sanctioned” way of Christianity. They should fear for their salvation if they leave – and these methods will cause them to live a ‘good’ life. Many of the same tactics used in dv are used in abusive church environments.
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Mark,
But these are the “rules” of particular organizations – primarily Evangelical churches. You know that going into it. One knows that going into the deal. If you choose to become a member of such an organization, then you need to abide by the rules. It is not for the organization to change what they believe nor need the person stay in and whine about it. Now, to I believe this sort of belief-system is assinine and do I think the rules are absurd? Absolutely, I do BUT then I would not join or else remain in such an organization in event that I was born into it. I don’t believe it is appropriate to ever whine and complain about ones encounters with the people who belong to these churches or the church administration and then hold one’s self out as a victim. The pastor, the elders and the congregants have every right to believe as they do, however, dysfunctional you may feel they are. If you don’t like the rules, get out and and join a church where you DO like the rules. I grow tired of people ever claiming they are victims but never doing anything about it.
Now, Mark, I know the story of your childhood and your father. I will hold that you WERE (as a child) the victim of what I consider to be a very evil man. You are a grown man now and you choose the church you wish and the people you want to associate with. I happens that you are not a complainer but rather an insightful man. If you were to be whining and complaining now, I would say “shut your mouth and get out of that organization – move on.” Does not the pastor, the elders and the congregants have the right to run their organization as they see fit? Are they the ones who need to change or is it the responsibility of the people who are unhappy in that environment to move on. How is what the pastor doing to this woman any different than the parent who stays “when you live under my roof, you follow my rules?” I have two relatives who never cleaned, never cooked and took very poor care of their children. One so much so that the state removed the children and put them up for adoption. These two relatives – both females – are the ones who do the most complaining and blaming of their circumstances on everyone else. I think it is ridiculous to hold membership in these organizations and then bitch about the rules.
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“People are told that the way of the abusive church is the “god sanctioned” way of Christianity”
Exactly. Look at the wording in that letter, “you have denied the biblical Christ.” And “we are concerned for your eternal state.” Ugly, ugly spiritual threats! Many victims tend to blame themselves, to falsely assume the problem must be them, and to fear losing their church family, their very salvation sometimes.
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So so many ways Lois.
Aside from the fact the he is not her father (!)
She already left. Which you claim to respect although you’re talking in circles. None of his business at this point.
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Admin note: Please see the follow-up information I just posted at the bottom of the post. It will answer some questions. ~ja
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As someone who is also a former Christ Church member, I highly doubt the claim that only men can revoke membership. It sounds from the letter like they were aware of her desire to leave the congregation and were waiting to hear if she was going to transfer to a new church. It’s pretty common for churches to keep people “on the rolls” until they are settled somewhere new.
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“The first time the dishes are not done, he must sit down with his wife immediately and gently remind her that this is something which has to be done. At no time may he lose his temper, badger her, call her names, etc. He must constantly remember and confess that she is not the problem, he is. By bringing this gently to her attention, he is not to be primarily pointing to her need to repent; rather, he is exhibiting the fruit of his repentance.
He does this, without rancor and without an accusative spirit, until she complies or rebels. If she complies, he must move up one step, now requiring that another of her duties be done. If she continues to rebel after patient effort, he should at some point call the elders of the church and ask them for a pastoral visit. When the government of the home has failed to such an extent and a godly and consistent attempt by the husband to restore the situation has broken down, then the involvement of the elders is fully appropriate.” ~Douglas Wilson
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We come to learn that Gen is a mother of 5 and works full time. OK that certainly gives her the right to have shortcomings in terms of cooking and cleaning. But here is the catch. Many members of this very forum state that they believe in the concept of being a “submitted wife.” OK fine but the scenario we are reading about is exactly what it means to be a submitted wife. It is absolutely ridiculous BUT folks say they believe in it and that is what they want. Well, this is what you get. You can’t say I want to be a submitted wife BUT only on my terms. I agree to do what Christ has “told” me to do but only under xyz conditions. That is called I want my cake and eat it to. I agree to the follow the rules but only to the extent that it suits me.
You CAN pick and chose which religious doctrines you want to follow and which ones are so stupid that they are not even worth discussing i.e. the “submitted wife” concept but then you can’t also be a member of an evangelical church or at least you can’t be a member of this one. People want Christianity but then they want it on their own terms. I have rejected it altogether because it does not suit me. Still I adopt certain principles from Christianity because I believe they have much wisdom and make for a better individual and a better society.
My point being when you sign onto something be it a church or a religion, you follow the rules or else you get out. Gen’s pastor has a right to lead his flock in the direction that he believes to be in their best interest. If Gen is not happy with that direction she needs to get out and find a leader or an organization who has a mindset more in line with her own. The bottom line point I am making is that you don’t stay in a situation and complain endless about it. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t demand that the organization change to suit you. One either shapes up or he ships out. Either way is fine with me but what I can’t abide – and what I see constantly around me including on this forum – is staying and then whining about it. Gen sounds like a great person to me. She needs to get rid of that church and find some competent secular marriage counseling. I hope she and her husband find a way to work it out. As much as possible couples should try to stay together and work it out. We have far too much divorce in our country because people want marriage BUT they want it only on THEIR terms – not going to happen.
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Lois, you are victim blaming. That is not allowed here.
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Lois, I have changed your user name to Lois B because a long-time reader named Lois still posts here. Thanks!
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I feel like she’s (or he’s) been here before.
JulieAnne, five kids! That and the maddening thing about dishes from Doug put this letter into perspective.
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You are correct, Lea. Lois B previously used the user name: Lois E Brenneman, MSN, FNP
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Lois B, I sounds like you are not very informed on the dynamics of abuse and what abuse does to a person. I would like to suggest that you read the book “Why does he do that?” by Lundy Bancroft. It will give you a lot of insight into why an abused wife finds it hard to make decisions and why she doesn’t just “move on” easily.
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Many members of this very forum state that they believe in the concept of being a “submitted wife.” OK fine but the scenario we are reading about is exactly what it means to be a submitted wife.”
It is certainly not. I realize it is a complex issue, but there is a huge difference between submission and the kind of abuse and exploitation that is being enabled by many of these false teachings. I submit to the grace of the Lord. I submit to the grace of a husband, too. “Perfect love casts out fear.” If your submission is based on fear and control, then it is actually not love, it is abuse.
There are actually many evangelicals and other Christians who have a beautiful understanding of marriage and do an amazing job of addressing abuse issues, submission, leadership, all in a biblical framework that truly honors women. Part of people’s negative response to Pastor Wilson, to Mike Lawyer, is that this is an aberration, this is not biblical, this is not the kind of behavior we would expect to see at all, not in those who honor Jesus Christ. I realize it is far too common, but it is still an aberration, meaning there is a standard this kind of behavior falls way short of.
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Lois, “But these are the “rules” of particular organizations – primarily Evangelical churches. You know that going into it.”
One of the facets of abusive relationships among adults tends to be deception. This sort of deceptive grooming is a mainstay in cultic organizations. My church, for example, has a Constitution. When someone is interested in joining the church, they are given a complimentary copy of the Constitution. It’s actually a pretty decent document in a lot of respects. The problem is that even with things written in black and white that the pastor, elders and deacons are sworn to uphold, there are glaring inconsistencies at every level, to the point that members really don’t know what they’re signing up for.
Another hallmark of abusive churches is unwritten rules. So, a person may think they know what they’re getting into, and then slowly as they receive browbeating and scorn, they realize that there’s a completely new and separate set of rules. For example, I doubt there is any church document that says that children must sit quietly in church, but a person with ‘distracting’ children is going to get the evil eye, and probably thinly veiled negative comments.
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Gen,
I’m so sorry for the way you have been mistreated by this church board… and despite what that horrible letter appears to suggest, I do not believe for one minute that you are not taking excellent and loving care of your family and home. Those guys are spiritually abusing you, and I hope their bullying doesn’t haunt you as you move forward with your life.
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@Mari:
Which makes God a Cosmic Monster and Satan the greatest Hero of all time.
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I am looking at these two back to back posts. Gen and Rachel. I googled Rachel’s husband , Jacob. He said.” It took one woman to grow up, go to law school. Pass the bar exam to do what one adult should have done years ago”. The humility of this man to live and support his wife is amazing , and his support is what has enabled her to be a super hero. Both are truly humble amazing people. Contrast that to Gens husband. Abusive, unsupportive. Grumbling about household chores. Which of these two marriages would anyone choose? Gen deserves to be loved and supported. 5 children are more than a full time job. Having a full time job and a whining husband to boot. An unsung heroine.
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Why would anyone think that it’s okay for a pastor or church to have that much control over one’s home life? I understand that Gen and her husband may have sought out pastoral counseling for marital problems, but that does not give the pastor the right to criticize and say that she has “denied the Biblical Christ” because she doesn’t live up to the cleaning standard the church expects of her. Since when have household chores become a spiritual issue?
This is spiritual abuse. The church has overstepped its boundaries by attempting to control people.
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Lois: I am keeping 2 of your comments in moderation. This post is not about determining whether the husband is guilty or not, or whether Gen is telling the truth. The post is about how the leaders at Christ Church are treating Gen. You may not victim blame here.
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One more thing, Lois. When there is abuse in a marriage, it is not a marriage problem, it is an abuse problem. In fact, when there is abuse, the couple should NOT go to counseling together.
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“Gen’s pastor has a right to lead his flock in the direction that he believes to be in their best interest.”
Doug Wilson arranged the marriage of a pedophile. The pedophile’s wife then had a baby and the pedophile was sexually aroused by the baby.
Doug Wilson advocated for two child sexual abusers. Doug Wilson cares about the pedophiles and child sexual assaulters in his cult best interest, but not about the children trapped in his sicko cult. Look up the vile way he treated a sexually abused girl who went to his cult; Natalie Rose Greenfield.
The two perverts Doug Wilson advocated for; Jamin Wight and Steven Sitler.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/01/doug-wilson-responds-to-rod-dreher-article-defends-perpetrator-shames-sex-abuse-survivor/
Jesus Christ never told a woman to submit.
Lois B, it sounds like you hate Gen. It also sounds like you have contempt for people who have been and are being spiritually abused.
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Based on your unwillingness to deal with these sins, we are suspending you from the Table of the Lord because to partake with you we’d have to be reminded of our own unconfessed sins against you and of our own unworthiness to partake.
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I have long thought in all the talk of the proverbs 31 wife, we have missed that her husband is supportive and proud. He does not micromanage. He does not tear her down in front of others. Jacob appears to be such a husband.
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Kathi, “Why would anyone think that it’s okay for a pastor or church to have that much control over one’s home life?”
I can see this both ways. Presumably, she went to the church to deal with her abusive marriage, so she asked the church to be involved in resolving issues with the marriage. The leaders probably turned it into a “counseling” matter, at which point all the marital issues came out and now the leaders believe they need to resolve all the sin in the marriage.
I struggle with the role of the church leaders, there seems to be a dual purpose of providing counsel, and providing judgment. However, it seems that churches are too quick to blur counsel and judgment, and this is just one example of how convoluted that becomes. In this case, if the church wanted to counsel, then they should have assigned one person to counsel them, and that person (presumably Mr. Lawyer) would then be barred from testifying or taking part in any judgment if there is a case arising from the matter. There might be no evidence to charge either party. I think “Biblical Counseling” arises from purposefully blurring these two roles, where the counselor gains trust, gets a person to expose their sins, and then, becomes the judge. No wonder it is so popular with pastors.
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It’s really disturbing to see the victim blaming on this thread. Why are people jumping to conclusions so fast?
Consider the line of reasoning:
Because X says she can’t keep the house clean enough—therefore she’s not.
Really? Says who? Why should we believe this guy when this whole group twists Scripture to set an impossible standard for women. Then they keep moving the goalpost forward. No matter how hard a woman tries, its NEVER going to be good enough for them.
Maybe if I post some actual quotes from Doug Wilson, people have more sympathy for Gen and understand the tremendous opposition that she’s up against:
Doug Wilson is LYING about the Bible when he teaches:
“Our fond wish for a level playing field—this is a clear indication of envy…Once we make our peace with God-ordained inequities, we can begin to understand how we should proceed.” (Reforming Marriage p. 38)
“A godly husband is a godly lord. A woman who understands this biblical truth and calls a certain man her husband is also calling him her lord. It is tragic that wholesale abdication on the part of modern men has made the idea of lordship in the home such a laughable thing.” (p. 80)
“Feminist dogma, engineered by ungodly men, has managed to maneuver multitudes of women into the workforce outside the home.” (p. 31)
“Women have been duped into working outside the home….” (p. 31)
“Even though the workplace has far more women in it, the authority of men is still firmly intact.” (p. 31)
“Because of how God made the world, men are always responsible for everything that happens in the feminine world…feminism is not the work of dissatisfied women; it is the work of ungodly men.” (p. 32)
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Lois B is now in moderation. I have 3 more comments from her that won’t be posted which would have been devastating for Gen to read.
She’s had trouble with this issue in the past, and people tried to carefully explain about abuse dynamics. Sadly, by her responses, it seems she doesn’t follow the ground rules I’ve set, and she doesn’t want to learn, based on her pattern of asking questions defending abusers.
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Mark – I meant my question to focus more on home life issues such as child care, household chores, and food preparation (specifically mentioned in the letter). I understand a couple going for pastoral counseling regarding relationship issues. But for pastors or elders to state that someone is a lesser Christian because the house is not as clean as it should be goes way beyond counseling.
If someone’s lack of caring for house and food was neglecting children or vulnerable adults, then a proper call to child or adult protective services would be in order. However, if this is a matter that the household chores, food prep, and children being in child care not done in a way that is pleasing or expected of the church and elders, these are not spiritual issues and do not make you less of a Christian.
If church leaders are going to provide pastoral counseling to couples it is essential that they understand that couples do not belong in marital counseling when abuse is present. Abuse is not a married couple’s issue, it is an individual’s issue. Christ Church has shown that they don’t care about victims in abusive marriages. We’ve now heard three stories. It makes me wonder how many more victims are being held hostage in abusive marriages.
Church leaders also need to admit when they are unable to provide non-biased counseling and refer to outside counseling sources if necessary. This is something I doubt the leaders at Christ Church would be able to do. I venture to guess that they believe they have spiritual/biblical authority over all things and are therefore are capable of providing counseling in all situations. Personally, I would not go to a pastor for counseling that does not involve spiritual matters.
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Well, Lois, I figured your trajectory was taking you into the doghouse. Not surprised you’re in moderation now, although I hoped for better from someone who’s been active here for a while. Still, I wanted to address a few things you said, so I hope you’re at least still reading. If not, I hope someone will benefit from what I say.
First of all, I find it very hard to believe that Doug Wilson does anything in his parishioners’ “best interests”. Considering that he leads not only his own church, but also his own denomination, his own schools, his own seminary and his own vanity press, I’m convinced that everything he does is for his own ego, and nothing more.
Second, are you sure that a pastor has the right to lead his flock in “any direction” he pleases? Even if that involves violating believers’ constitutional rights? Because by refusing to let Gen revoke her membership, by trying to discipline her after she quits, and by insisting on interfering with her search for a new church, that’s exactly what the “kirk” in Moscow is doing. This has been addressed before at the Wartburg Watch — you can check it out if you don’t believe me.
Even if her husband remains a dangerous, abusive fool? In that case, I sincerely hope Gen gets a divorce and does whatever else she needs to in order for her and her kids to be safe from him.
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It is so rich when men come by and claim women are somehow Deficient for wanting to be considered equal to men. Women are wrong for wanting control of their lives, but men are not for wanting control of their lives. And women’s lives. And children’s lives. Women are wrong for wishing to do something in church but men are not? The motives they give…envy really? It certainly is easy to sit there in your diamond shoes and accuse someone of ‘envy’ for wishing for a pair of flats.
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“I meant to say that when abuse is present in a relationship, couples do not belong in marital counseling.”
Something that really bothers me about Pastor Wilson is that he does not seem to understand power differentials, or perhaps he just believes women are always dominant and rebellious? Regardless, anyone worth their salt will understand power imbalances, especially when it comes to counseling of any sort.
Marital counseling can work in any situation, but you have to have someone aware of abuse issues and tuned into power differentials. If they are trying to mediate some kind of compromise, forget it. In a Christian context, this really annoys me, because we don’t mediate or negotiate with evil, we name it and get rid of it. If someone is an alcoholic for example, you don’t pretend nothing is wrong here and the people around them just need to negotiate and compromise more. That’s really unhealthy.
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Studying Doug Wilson’s false theology rather extensively—here’s what I found:
Doug has a pattern of flipping God’s laws upside down by labeling good as evil and evil as good.
The root of his false theology that its sinful for women to work outside the home actually comes from the ancient Talmud—NOT the Bible.
The Talmud taught the Ten Curses of Eve—including that because Eve sinned once, therefore all women ever born had the curse of being stuck in the house. That’s the root of these Christian books that attack the ability of women to have a career.
Yes—many women are called by God to stay at home to raise a family. We need to honor the sacrifices that many women make for the good of their children. And we must honor the sacrifices that many single mothers make who don’t have this choice in the first place.
What I’m trying to show is the huge difference between the mother who makes her own decision to lovingly sacrifice her career to raise her kids—and the false theology that women in the workplace is a problem.
The Proverbs 31 woman did a whole lot of going outside the house to invest in real estate, negotiate business contracts, etc. etc. Nothing in the Bible ever told women to be stuck in the house. In fact Jesus commands us to “Go ye into all the world……”
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So assuming I understand what occurred here, a patriarchal man’s man had to run and tattle on his wife for not meeting his standard of service. Kind of makes a real wimp out of him in my book. He could have called 1800-maid today , or visited flylady.net and learned how to run a vacuum. This shouldn’t involve the church busy body elders. The are supposed to be focused on “housekeeping” in the church not our homes. Sounds to me like this complaintant husband is a real weak pansy boy.
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Lois, I am letting this comment go so others can respond to you. There is no way in hell I will allow the other one to be posted (that makes 3 or 4 stuck in moderation).
Your responses are toxic to survivors. Your response is exactly why survivor’s stay silent. Until you can show compassion and empathy for survivors, you do not get a place to spout off here. This place doesn’t sound like a good fit for you. I hope you will educate yourself on abuse issues because you could really be harming people with your shortsightedness. I say that because many people have tried to explain things to you months ago, yet you are still repeating the same kind of comments.
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Lois B,
From what Julie Anne has shared in the last comment of hers I read, I understand you’ve interacted on this blog before. I’m not sure if anyone has suggested some reading in regards to the topic of spiritual abuse (apologies if they have) and if it’s okay with Julie Anne, I’d like to suggest a book if it’s still in print that was very helpful to me understanding what was happening to me and many people in various churches. Though I no longer refer to myself as a Christian, I still recommend the book to those who are hurting or need help understanding the topic of spiritual abuse/legalism.
Book: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse; Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church, by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen.
Only a suggestion if you are interested.
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Julie Anne,
You cannot censure comments with which you do not agree and then delude yourself that you are doing anything different the the very people – i.e. the church leaders – you condemn. They censure also. Gen put herself out there by publishing a letter sent to her via private mail. When you put yourself out there, you need to expect that some people will agree with you and some people will disagree with you.
It is not your role to control what everyone thinks. The people on this forum are very intelligent and I am sure that includes Gen. They can formulate their own opinions and respond as they see fit. When we all hear what one another has to say, we can better come to a position which best serves the greater good. We learn from one another and we evolve, hopefully into better people, because we hear a variety of perspectives. When you try to suppress comments with which you disagree, you are no different from the very people you condemn. If Gen were as delicate as you presume she is, then she would not have put forth her private letter on the web where millions upon millions of people can see it. Most importantly, I am not condemning Gen. I am simply pointing out where she had some responsibility in what happened to her and encouraging everyone to take responsibility for their actions.
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I am posting Lois’ comment so people can feel free to help her understand what a survivor blog is and what it is not. I’m too tired and have too much homework to get into it tonight. Thanks, all!
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Lois B wrote, “…I have not heard his side of the story so I am not judging…”
The trouble with that thinking is that it’s based on the idea that if you heard “his side” you would be able to discern the truth. But where there is abuse involved, there is a great deal of manipulation and game-playing going on. It takes a lot of education and experience to see beneath the surface to where the truth lies. That is why so many abusers get away with it for so long – because people observing from the outside assume that the facade they see is the real person. And so they become enablers to the abuse, leaving the one who has finally gathered up the courage to speak out about it even worse off than before.
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“If Gen were as delicate as you presume she is, then she would not have put forth her private letter on the web where millions upon millions of people can see it.”
Wow, Lois B, your lack of empathy is astounding! Those words indicate to me that you have no idea what years of abuse will do to a person, and maybe you really don’t care. But let me tell you that some of us got to a place where the desperation drove us to do some pretty “out there” things!
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“I am simply pointing out where she had some responsibility in what happened to her and encouraging everyone to take responsibility for their actions.”
Actually, I think she has done just that and beautifully, too. It’s not so easy to walk away from your church,confront your husband about his behavior, to send out a letter debunking some untrue gossip about you, to seek some outside marital counseling, and some emotional support from others, ALL while working full time and raising five kids.
What I appreciate so much about Gen is that she IS being responsible, and strong, and actually responding to this situation exactly as I’d like to see someone respond. Victims like Gen give me a lot of hope because as painful as it probably all is for her, this is progress, this is what we want to see in women’s heart’s, a keen awareness that mistreating us is not okay.
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Lois, read over your comment and try to figure out why I didn’t publish another comment of yours. You obviously are smart because you have initials behind your name. I don’t need to spell out the rules again. This is getting old.
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Next time, Lois, I’m just going to hit the trash can I on without explaining.
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Gen has taken responsibility and has tendered her resignation from the church. They responded months later by putting her under church discipline for not doing housework and having children in childcare. (they might have an issue with her seeking help from licensed mental health professionals, too) Their response sounds to me like typical things that people who are abusive say about their spouses and ways to ‘play the victim’. It would all be fine if she was at home (isolated) and doing what he tells her (controlled by him). When you know what you are looking for, it’s easier to see, even when the abuser thinks they are justifying their actions.
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