Calvary Chapel Franchise, Christian Marriage, Clergy Sex Abuse, Divorce, Going Back to Church Again, Marriage, Marriages Damaged-Destroyed by Sp. Ab., Spiritual Abuse, The Gospel Coalition, Tullian Tchividjian

Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A Broken Church

Julie Anne

Tullian Tchividjian, Bob Coy, Church Leaders Response, Clergy Sex Abuse, Sexual Infidelity, Spiritual Abuse, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale

 

***

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:11-15

***

 

If you were a church leader, and your pastor was caught in sexual sin, how would you handle it? I was trying to think about this as it relates to the Tullian Tchividjian scandal.

Some church leaders may not be thinking clearly when it is discovered that their pastor has had a sexual relationship outside of marriage with another woman (congregant or otherwise). Now, perhaps their initial thoughts are that if the congregation finds out, they won’t be able to handle it, it’s too messy, and it will be a disruption. These justifications are valid. Maybe their thinking is that if those very few people who know about it can “take care of it,” then the church can move on as normal and everything will be fine. That seems legit  So maybe their original intent of protecting the church body was initially a good one. But it doesn’t usually end well.

Another way leaders sometimes handle sexual sin is by addressing only some of the sexual sins. They minimize the extent of it, again, so as to not let it appear too messy.  They are still covering up sin, and this is obviously not full disclosure. When congregants find out that it was far more than leaders disclose, this is problematic.

A comment came in last night from someone who is not the “other woman” or the wife of the pastor, or close friends of anyone involved. This comment came from a congregant. I suspect that this commenter was probably not very close with her pastor, but has been a regular attender, trusting her pastor(s) and church leaders to live according to Biblical qualifications of elders (1 Tim), and to appropriately shepherd the flock. That seems reasonable, right?

But what we will read below is how far reaching and destructive it is when, first, a pastor has a sexual relationship outside his marriage, and second, when church leaders fail to handle the sin appropriately.

When church leaders pay more attention to caring, covering up, and protecting their wayward pastor than the hurting sheep, the Body of Christ is harmed, sometimes spiritually and emotionally shattered. Is this what the Bible alludes to when the church becomes a sheep with no shepherd?

On a slightly different note, as I read comments from congregants about their pastors’ sexual sins, sometimes I read that a sinful and sexual relationship between a pastor and another woman is between them and God. This is not true.

The sexual sin of a pastor extends far beyond the bedroom and into the House of God.

It rocks people’s faith. It can makes people not trust any church leader. Some will quit church entirely. I hope Debbie’s story below will help to illustrate a common response from congregants whose pastors have failed morally.

I want to thank Debbie * for risking to share her personal story with us, especially after her story was not well received elsewhere.  ~ja

***

 

Debbie’s Personal Story: Betrayed and Wounded

Gonna take a chance and post this here. First time poster. Former Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (CRPC) member. I was there when Tullian Tchividjian (TT) came in 2009. As a voting member, I took the word of our Pulpit Nominating Committee and voted to bring TT and merge his church with CRPC.

It didn’t take long for me to see something was wrong with TT. His sermons seemed, off, somehow. He had a bold yet somewhat (to me) arrogant presence in the pulpit. And then the trouble really began.

He disbanded CRPC’s contemporary worship team and installed his team from New City (his former church). Note that he did not bring the two together; he “fired” Coral Ridge’s group.

He made several other hurtful decisions and took some drastic actions. Just a few months into his tenure, many people were questioning the wisdom of bringing him in. We followed procedure to recall him. The voting process was NOT a secret ballot; I signed my name to the ballot when I cast it. I questioned this and was told, “well, that’s how we’re doing it.” I voted to recall him. By this time, the church was split. My dear, close friends of many years were split, some agreed with me and some sided with Tullian. It was a terrible, wrenching, hurtful time. After the vote, the recriminations began. They knew who had voted to oust him, and they proceeded with ruthless precision to cull the dissenters. I could give details of Tullian’s destruction, but I’ll withhold.

I left the church and after a year or two of not attending anywhere, ended up at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. Some time after I arrived, then-pastor Bob Coy was caught with his pants down and resigned. Another shocker. Initially the church was hush hush, then came clean. Bob left without any direct apology to the congregation. He left. We were told to pray for him. The church elders made a “Coy Family Care Plan” to support Bob. Later he divorced his wife.

So here I have experienced two devastating spiritual and moral betrayals by pastors. (Tullian’s brother, Stephan, is a pastor at Calvary Fort Lauderdale).

Tullian Tchividjian, Bob Coy, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, CRPC, sexual sins, clergy sex abuseThe Lord had me remain at Calvary, although I followed Tullian’s “career” from afar. I saw his falling out with The Gospel Coalition, and felt like I could see his spiritual arrogance and others could not. I was confused by this, as it seemed so obvious to me. His defenders seemed to indulge in a blind sort of hero worship. I felt angry but also somewhat vindicated as TT was showing his true colors.

Then came news of Tullian’s adultery. Like Bob Coy, he resigned and left. I was disgusted and angry. I hated how he threw his wife under the bus in an effort to justify his sin. I felt like yelling, “I WARNED YOU. He doesn’t care about anybody but himself. Why can’t you see how he refuses to accept correction?”

I shared on another blog about TT and was read the riot act. I was interrogated as to how I could dare say this man’s public statement didn’t show true repentance! I was told that his sin didn’t hurt anybody but himself and his family. I was shocked. I said, “He is a PASTOR!” I felt like I had to defend myself against this Christian blog by explaining how heinous it was for a minister of Christ to commit adultery. I’m still smarting over it. I actually had to lay it out for this guy how devastating this was for the congregation and for the Name of Christ. Unbelievable.

Now come the latest revelations regarding Tullian. I am angry and grieved all over again.

Tonight, a friend and I began looking for another church. It was Palm Sunday, and unbeknownst to us, the one we went to had a concert. It was very good, focusing on the seven last words of Christ. They talked about the sufferings of the cross and what Jesus did for sinners. I was moved to contemplate my Savior’s sacrifice for me and I felt humble gratitude. It was great to go to church and hear the Name of Jesus exalted in word and hymnody.

I am deeply angry at Bob and Tullian. They wrecked scores of lives and got off scot-free. People did not listen when I warned about Tullian, and others mocked me when I opined that he was unrepentant. I feel betrayed and wounded. I’m beginning to think that I was a victim of spiritual abuse. Why else would all of these feelings be coming out? I am taking a chance that this is a safe place. It seems like I needed to get a lot off my chest. Thanks for letting me write this; I hope this was the appropriate place to do it.

 

*Debbie’s name has been changed for privacy

photo credit: I believe this flower pot has fallen from a great height via photopin (license)

252 thoughts on “Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A Broken Church”

  1. TT says (above transcribed):

    “I just want quiet and I want peace and I wanna heal and I wanna continue the process of confession and repentance and healing and uh, just, you know, sort of recalibrate in every way emotionally, spiritually, mentally…”

    This was early this month before he was fired from WC. Some would say his affair before the affair is not relevant to what is going on now and I see their point to a degree. It also seems to me that his confession statement regarding his wife first had an affair and that kinda sorta, you know, I mean. uh (to use TT speak) caused him to have an inappropriate relationship with a woman is no longer valid, as that gives a more innocent impression of him than is really true.

    When, in all his talk of wanting to continue in confession and repentance and healing was he going to tell his pastor that he meets with almost every day about the affair before the affair? Surely a secret like that would leave healing somewhat lacking,

    Like

  2. @senecagriggs, you noted a “List of 15 richest pastors in the U.S. Not a neo-cal among them.”

    http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/top-15-richest-pastors-in-america/151594

    I looked up these individuals and their ages … not a 40-something among them except for Paula White, who is 49 but will turn 50 in April 2016. So, clearly, being on this list must be a function of age, not theology.

    The first of the GenXers turned 50 in 2015. So, maybe by the time some of the following years’ birth-crops of GenX Neo-Cals turn 50, they’ll be on the list, too. Perhaps they’re already in the next tier of 15 … vying for their spot at the top?

    Liked by 1 person

  4. I think what also happens is these men who have a “winning” personality and a natural ability to preach, teach, etc. end up thinking the world needs their gifts and go in to ministry. Certainly, they were given these gifts by their Creator. However, without an on-going intimate relationship with God, things can go awry. I just heard a sermon by a visiting preacher and it started off awkward. The man was unattractive and his words didn’t “flow.” Guess what, though? As the message unfolded, it was clear that the Holy Spirit was using him to convict many in the congregation. My natural instinct was to judge by outward appearances but that is so contrary to what God does. God does not need the Tullians of the world to proclaim His message–He wants to use us, but His criteria is not ours. I’d rather have a pastor who fits this description: “To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly[a] with your God.”

    Like

  5. TT says (from the other place around the 38 min mark):

    “While on the outside it may look like I have changed a lot since I was 21 years old, I’m not sure I’ve changed that much on the inside. I still get angry, I still get jealous, I still have insecurities, uh I still get frustrated at things I shouldn’t get frustrated at, I’m still selfish, um and so as I’ve gotten older, I’ve become better at, you know, sort of masking those things so that people don’t see it um but the fact of the matter is I’m not really sure I’ve gotten that much better and so if Christianity if God’s love for me is based on my progress rather that Christ’s perfection I’m screwed….I’m a train wreck… That actually lightens the load a little bit because I am not trying to hide from who I am uh I’m free to embrace who I really am.”

    Well isn’t the affair before the affair a part of who he really is (serial adulterer)? He certainly did hide from that and was hiding from that at the time of this interview. He hid it from his church, family, and had elders helping him hide it. He hid it from his current pastor Kevin Labby, for months, until a week or so ago when it was revealed.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. TT continues:

    “And so one of the reasons that the church, so, has been not very good in dealing with things like this (fallen pastor) is because we are moralists by nature. We don’t like messy things. The church is supposed to be you know filled with clean people who do clean things and uh you know they (church) are fine with you preaching you know uh grace until you do something whereby you need it (starts laughing) they are you know they’re fine with you telling you you’re a broken sinner until you actually do something that broken sinners do (interviewer says right) and so so if I don’t know what God’s gonna have me do. I may work at Walmart for the rest of my life and that would be fine with me, to be quite honest with you, Um but if He (God) in any way, shape or form, gives me an opportunity to um speak to the church, speak to pastors, speak to Christians I mean, because of everything that’s happened, I’ve seen the worst of the church and the best of the church. I’ve seen the worst of Christianity and the best of Christianity and and I would just love to see the church, and Christians in particular, be better equipped to handle things like this because they have a more robust understanding of the ?radicality? of the gospel.”

    The “any way, shape or form” had already been planned, as he was scheduled to speak at a 2 day church event on March 4th and 5th–3 days after this interview. But this was not mentioned.

    He’s happy to go to Walmart or he’s happy to speak to Christians. He is listing each as something that is futurist and not yet materialized. But at the time of this interview, he was already scheduled to speak at a 2 day event on March 4th and 5th, promoting a book of his as well. The obvious deception, in my opinion, is the fact that we would no more expect him to be working at Walmart in 3 days any more than we would be expecting him to publically speak.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. @Vyarvum:

    I think what also happens is these men who have a “winning” personality and a natural ability to preach, teach, etc. end up thinking the world needs their gifts and go in to ministry.

    Isn’t that usually associated with a BIG toothy SMIIIILE with Photoshop sparkles animated atop the Pearly Whites?

    Like

  9. “Pearly Whites” back in Jesus’ day weren’t so pearly, nor white, correct me if I am mistaken…….the apostles and disciples found in our Holy Scriptures were martyred for their faith in their Master, Jesus Christ.

    Winning personalities………..led them to tragic deaths here on earth and life eternal in the presence of our Glorious Savior.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. The 2 day event in California that TT spoke at on March 4th and 5th was advertised as early as February 8th per Spring Hill’s FB page. One would think TT would mention it in the interview on March 1st when he said IF God would in any way, shape or form give him an opportunity to speak to the church, pastors and Christians.

    Spring Hills Community Church
    February 8th·
    A two day event with Tullian Tchividjian is coming to Spring Hills March 4-5.
    Don’t miss this life changing event. Get your tickets today http://www.springhills.org/onewayloveevent .

    So this was a big-ish deal in which you had to purchase tickest to attend. TT not only spoke at the 2 day conference, but preached all weekend, which I did not know:

    Spring Hills Community Church Hi Vickie, the conference is Friday night and Saturday morning. Tullian will be staying with us through the weekend and preaching at each weekend service

    Like Reply February 29 at 12:59pm

    Liked by 1 person

  14. Diane, Thanks so much for transcribing. That is important information that people need to realize. This is not just about a pastor who is a serial sex abuser (by fact that he was in a position of authority), but also a chronic liar.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. @Julie Anne~

    There was much more to that March 1st podcast. I just pointed out a few highlights. It was almost an hour long. I have it downloaded in case it disappears.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Thanks, Diane. BTW, in case anyone got notification of a new blog post, I found an old post from 2015 on Tullian that I had published in draft. I must have hit a wrong key or something. I re-released it so that people who want to have more info on this ongoing case can read it.

    Like

  19. @Julie Anne~

    I found the vanishing interview on another site.
    http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/vanderbloemen-search-group/vanderbloemen-leadership-podcast/e/recovering-after-youve-failed-with-tullian-tchividjian-40074450

    I missed this the first time I listened. TT is speaking about the adultery that occurred last summer. 21 min mark:

    “It’s one thing not to be shocked at other people’s sins. That (the affair last summer) was the one thing I thought I would never do. I knew I could be lured by this or that or the other, but I had always had a really big sort of guard up, I knew that that was a career killer, at least in my experience with pastors and church leaders and it was a short-lived thing it wasn’t a long thing but it um was the worst external decision I have ever made in my life… I knew I was bad, I didn’t know I was this bad.”

    Is he trying to make it seem like last summer was the first time he had done that?
    .

    Liked by 1 person

  20. Not to cause too much trouble here, but since pastor’s love their sermons on ‘the Jezebel spirit’ to coerce their congregations into doing as the pastor desires, spiritual blackmail so to speak…..

    would it be fair to call out a sexually immoral pastor as having ‘a Jezebel spirit?’

    Or, are pastor’s and their leadership minions immune from such labels?

    There was once a self righteous business owner in our community, who served as an elder/important meddling man in the affairs of others, at the local charismatic/Pentecostal church down the road who went around the community calling everyone ‘liars’ and they needed to ‘repent and turn to the lord,’ until one day and terrible and horrific truth was revealed……he was finally caught cheating on his wife with a young lady just out of high school. He was removed from his position of eldership, but the charismatic pastor stilled called on this man to ‘pray’ over the congregation……bad, bad call on his part. And this prideful, adulterous man went from calling those around him “liars,” to “why is the church so critical of adulterers, shouldn’t the church be a “hospital” for sinners?”

    When the source of righteousness lies in and of ourselves, it is easy to call out the ‘sins’ of other folks without looking at ourselves in the mirror. And sadly, the pastors, leadership networks, as well as those who are working their way up the flattery ladder to gain an important position/title within our institutional churches are very good at doing the work of the stone throwers……until……..the ugly truth of their own secret sins are revealed……..and then these prideful individuals want the rest of us to pour out mercy and grace in becoming…..

    “the hospital for them when they are caught in sin.” And when you are not as sympathic, empathic, and compassionate as they believe you should be towards their wicked, evil sin……well then, folks…..

    we are called bitter, angry, and unforgiving…….more religious code words to shut the lower laity worms up.

    (And by the way…..the important religious elder man listed above, was actually caught in “two adulterous affairs” during his religious tenure of ‘ruling by force.’)

    Liked by 1 person

  21. would it be fair to call out a sexually immoral pastor as having ‘a Jezebel spirit?’

    Or, are pastors and their leadership minions immune from such labels?

    RANK. HATH. ITS. PRIVILEGES.

    (And by the way…..the important religious elder man listed above, was actually caught in “two adulterous affairs” during his religious tenure of ‘ruling by force.’)

    Including sexual privileges over their inferiors.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. “It’s one thing not to be shocked at other people’s sins. That (the affair last summer) was the one thing I thought I would never do. I knew I could be lured by this or that or the other, but I had always had a really big sort of guard up, I knew that that was a career killer, at least in my experience with pastors and church leaders and it was a short-lived thing it wasn’t a long thing but it um was the worst external decision I have ever made in my life… I knew I was bad, I didn’t know I was this bad.”

    Is he trying to make it seem like last summer was the first time he had done that?

    That is the Official Narrative.
    THE SPIN IS IN.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. But, but, but… This er, stuff, Adultry, Extra-marital affairs…
    Seems to be rampant with pastor/leaders in the 501 c 3, IRS Corporations…
    That the IRS calls church.

    Yup – There are lots of serial liars in TT’s profession.
    These guys should quit, quietly walk away, and go do something else.

    This info is from a ministry helping pastor/leader/reverends…
    Called, “Into Thy Word.” – 1,050 pastors were surveyed.

    http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=

    “After over 18 years of researching pastoral trends and many of us being a pastor, we have found (this data is backed up by other studies) that pastors are in a dangerous occupation!”

    “From our recent research we did to retest our data, 1050 pastors were surveyed from two pastor’s conferences held in Orange County and Pasadena, Ca-416 in 2005, and 634 in 2006 (I conducted a similar study for the Fuller Institute in the late 80s with a much greater sampling).”

    77% of pastors say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
    …. Wouldn’t a good marriage be important to be a healthy pastor?
    NOT “manageing well” their household disqualifies elders. Yes? 1 Tim 3:4,5.

    57% of pastors said they would leave if they had a better place to go.
    …….. Nope – NOT healthy being in a career you do NOT like.
    …….. Having to show up every Sunday to inspire folks. Oy Vey!

    😦 😦 😦 Almost 40% polled said they have had an extra-marital affair
    …….. since beginning their ministry.

    Yes folks, almost 40%, of pastor/leader/reverends…
    ADMIT – To having “an extra-marital affair.”

    And we’re dealing with “serial liars.”

    How many pastor/leader/reverends did NOT ADMIT it?

    Shouldn’t these guys, who NO longer Qualify as elder/overseers…
    remove themselves? And be a good example to the flock?

    Lots and Lots of empty pulpits if this is taken seriously.

    Jer 17:5
    Thus saith the LORD;
    Cursed be the man that trusteth in man…

    Liked by 2 people

  25. A Amos Love, (I love your comments, btw),

    “Shouldn’t these guys, who NO longer Qualify as elder/overseers…
    remove themselves? And be a good example to the flock?”

    It makes me wonder if 70%+ of those who go into the pastorate are not meant to be there to begin with? Does being a pastor change them? Or does it reveal who they are?

    Jerry Seinfeld had a quote about how he thought the craziest, or scariest, thing about the presidency was that some people think they should be president. I wonder if the thought carries over to being a pastor? If it doesn’t scare you to be in that position, are you normal? I’m starting to wonder.

    Liked by 3 people

  26. Jerry Seinfeld had a quote about how he thought the craziest, or scariest, thing about the presidency was that some people think they should be president.

    You mean like the three front-runners for this election year?
    (i.e. TRUMP, Cruz, and Clinton — all three of whom give off the “future dictator in waiting” vibe.)

    Like

  27. I am actually a fan of Tullian…. even in the face of his sexual sin. A lot of people struggle with the right position… but not the right “posture” of Jesus Christ. Very common! Tullian stepped away from much of the legalistic language of judgemental politics that it seems his uncle Franklin Graham is heading down more and more all the time. Bill Graham never did not take that path nearly as much as Franklin does and it will be interesting to me if Franklin Graham becomes just another Jerry Fallwell at the end of his life (in my mind).

    However, one thing this does show to me… is that people “steeped” in relgiosity from birth on …. often do not know how to do “healthy”! I mean healthy emotionally when I say this. They are so busy considering what sin is and what sin is not that they do not know how to do “healthy” in life. Black and white/all or nothing thinkers do not know how to be healthy emotionally. I am betting we have all seen this in both religious and non-religious people that feel a need to win an argument or discussion.

    They believe healthy is when other people agree with them!

    Like

  28. “It’s one thing not to be shocked at other people’s sins. That (the affair last summer) was the one thing I thought I would never do. I knew I could be lured by this or that or the other, but I had always had a really big sort of guard up, I knew that that was a career killer, at least in my experience with pastors and church leaders and it was a short-lived thing it wasn’t a long thing but it um was the worst external decision I have ever made in my life… I knew I was bad, I didn’t know I was this bad.”
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    These words are, in my opinion, the words of a screamingly malignant narcissist. It’s all about him, his career, how it’s hard to deal with the fact that he can no longer think well of himself, the worst decision he ever made in his life, how bad he was. 13 “I’s” or “me’s” in just a few sentences. The wife? Thrown under the bus, exposed for what she did (or didn’t) do to justify his own infidelities. The kids? Seemingly inconsequential.

    Just sounds like one sick, selfish, cold-hearted person who could not possibly care less–unless it’s all about him.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. You know who Tullian sounds like in the discussion of his own sin? One heck of a lot like J.D. Hall and his self-aggrandizing, look at me, non-apology apology from 2014 that was posted here and elsewhere.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. “I knew that that was a career killer, at least in my experience with pastors and church leaders and it was a short-lived thing it wasn’t a long thing but it um was the worst external decision I have ever made in my life… I knew I was bad, I didn’t know I was this bad.”

    Can someone explain an “external decision”. In the context he uses it. It seems to have dualism written all over it.

    Like

  31. From CT.
    “The kids and wife often bear the brunt of the church’s discipline, even when they haven’t done something themselves,” said Labby. “Our reason for reaching out to Tullian wasn’t just about him. It was making sure that his kids had health insurance. It was making sure that his wife and daughter would have financial means to care for themselves.”

    It isn’t the job of the church to make sure a man’s kids are taken care of. The mother and father are to do that work. In TT’s case I am sure that family has enough money to take care of the wife and kids. Labby is just spouting co-dependent mumbo jumbo. I really would like to know how many in his church actually sat down with the wife and held her hand through all this? His biggest concern for her seems to be superficial.

    Tullian’s response to taking care of his own children after the affair? He moved from Ft. Lauderdale to Orlando, which is many hours away, right at a time that his children needed him most. If he treats his family like that, after getting caught in adultery, how can you ever believe this guy cares for you?! Maybe if more people REALLY did think of their spouse, and kids, they would not betray them in the first place.

    Like

  32. centralityofthegospel,

    “I am actually a fan of Tullian…. even in the face of his sexual sin. A lot of people struggle with the right position… but not the right “posture” of Jesus Christ”

    I’m not sure what you mean by the position and posture of Jesus Christ, could you explain more?

    I’ve been seeing this word “posture” used lately in Christian circles here and there. Is it a thing now? Is there a place in the Bible where the idea is taken from? I looked it up-

    pos·ture
    ˈpäsCHər/
    verb
    gerund or present participle: posturing

    behave in a way that is intended to impress or mislead others.
    “a masking of fear with macho posturing”
    synonyms: pose, strike an attitude, strut
    “Keith postured, flexing his biceps”
    adopt (a certain attitude) so as to impress or mislead.
    “the companies may posture regret, but they have a vested interest in increasing Third World sales”
    archaic
    place (someone) in a particular attitude or pose.
    “and still these two were postured motionless”

    It doesn’t seem like posture would be a positive thing Christians would want to identify with, given the definition? It seems kind of like being “a poser.”
    How does Christ have a “posture”? I think he was simply authentic, the real thing through and through.

    C S Lewis has a good poem entitled “posturing.”

    I must be missing something here, can you fill me in?

    Like

  34. Sermon TT gave in 2014 on adultery (the year the affair before the affair took place). It was part of a series called, How To Be Perfect.

    TT is adamant about making sure born again believers know how bad they are. If we don’t think we are horrible people no different from the world, and that we continue to be horrible people all our lives, then we don’t understand grace.

    The Rod Rosenbladt story at the end is disturbing-about the last 3 minutes of the sermon. TT said to substitute adultery for abortion in the story. I did that and it just did not sit right with me. Do presby pastors believe they can absolve sin if you confess to them and make it disappear so you do not have to tell your spouse because poof–what sin? What a hot mess this sermon is.

    Like

  35. “If you were a church leader, and your pastor was caught in sexual sin, how would you handle it?” The pastor would not be pastor anymore. In fact, ever. One qualification for an elder in 1 Timothy 3 is that an overseer should be above reproach. If a sexually sinning pastor repented and became the most humble Christian possible, the sexual sin would render him NOT above reproach, even decades later. A sexually sinning pastor disqualifies himself for life.

    It would be my duty to protect the body from such a leader. I would hope I would make this as clear as possible to the body. In advance, of course, but especially after such a thing took place.

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  36. Interesting comment Steve and am in complete agreement with you. However, not every man believes the same way as you, let alone allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves. The religious males in my home see our philandering AOG pastor as making a mistake, a very bad call, on his part, but they also see that everyone sins and we should allow him more grace because after all, he is extremely charismatic, has visions, speaks in tongues, prophesies, and ‘preaches the word of god in context,’ according to their standards. I disagree with most of what this false preacher stands for and the wolves he promotes. And yet, when a woman has marital problems or divorces her husband within the congregation, the fault always lies with the woman; she is called an adultress and should do everything possible to reconcile with her husband because the failure/blame is pinned on her due to the submission issue. Very little mercy, grace, compassion and empathy, and the big one here, LOVE, is afforded the woman of the lower laity caste system.

    Forgive the sinful pastor, and yet guilt trip, excommunicate, and if at all possible, shun in public or throw stones at her if it makes the proud religious feel better about themselves. This rank and file non-scriptural teaching lives quite well within our religious home and it stinks far worse than the cattle dung out in the pasture.

    It is easy to stand on the pulpit acting and sounding like a religious big shot….until the darkness of their own sin is revealed, when the tables become overturned and the double mindedness/double standards hurt many ordinary folks who believe, love and desire to serve Jesus in peace without the standard worm sermons from leadership network.

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  37. Shy one asked “I’m not sure what you mean by the position and posture of Jesus Christ, could you explain more?”

    Position basically means you believe in the same truths as Jesus Christ. Posture means you have same attitude toward people (and sinners) around you. Position is always the easy part but having the right posture is much more difficult to do is all I am saying. Jesus had a grace and mercy narrative toward the “dregs” of society and toward the religious pharisees he had a firm hand. This is always hard to do and the church often has this upside down. Posture takes a high level of emotional maturity in a church or person.

    If what I am hearing/reading is true I would agree with the word narcissist. My one caution is that narcissism is often a sign of a very wounded soul. I am interested in how Tullian progresses and matures and if he ever takes a hard look at that woundedness and emotional emptiness in his own soul to make some personal progress.

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  38. “My one caution is that narcissism is often a sign of a very wounded soul.”

    You cannot be serious. Narcissist have no empathy except that which is feigned. Yet, they know right from wrong so they have the ability to choose.

    Your explanation on position/posture is interesting. Especially since Tullian is in the ‘religious leader’ category.

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  39. This was on The Christian Post recently:
    Key Life Founder Steve Brown: Tullian Tchividjian Confessed Affair to Me But Didn’t Take My Advice

    In his post this week, Brown explained why he didn’t betray Tullian’s confidence and highlighted things he could have done better.

    “First, I’ve been a sort of father figure to Tullian as well as his confessor. I gave Tullian a lot of advice that he didn’t take (but then it’s not uncommon for people to ignore my advice),” he said.

    …He explained that confession breaks “the last stronghold of self-justification” and he had served as a safe place for Tchividjian to deal with his sin.

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  40. Actually quite serious about that statement. But your right lack of empathy is another related disorder.

    Not a big fan of wikipedial but it did a decent job on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

    “Pathological narcissism can develop from an impairment in the quality of the person’s relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents could not form a healthy and empathic attachment to them.[18] ”

    So quite often narcissism stems from a lack of empathy in an entire family system. Basically it is the results of “emotional abandonment” in the family system…. “Deep soul wounds from family of origin.”

    Going back to the idea of growing up in the Billy Graham family (Billy was Tullians uncle) is in the back of my head as I write this.

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  41. Yes, wiki is not a good source on the topic of narcissism. Narcissist are always “victims” after they have harmed or used people. They are so good at it, people fall for it. Not to mention Tullians antinomian religion is perfect for narcissists. They can play humble while harming others because it is impossible to be trustworthy, have character and integrity.. Those things are considered self righteous in that world.

    You are aware Tullian has a brother who works on behalf of victims.

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  42. Antinomian .. great word. It’s companion opposite is legalism. Gods truth is full of Truth AND Grace. Truth tends get abusive by legalists. Grace gets abused by the antimoniam. In the middle I am calling “healthy”. Often a legalist has position of Jesus Christ but not the posture. Often the antinomian has the posture of Jesus Christ without always holding the right position.

    I have no doubt the Graham family has people on both sides of the fence. Wouldn’t be interesting to be a fly on the wall at their family reunions over the last 2 years? Or to be privy to some of the e-mail exchanges about this? It will be interesting to follow thenm over the the next 40 years, I believe. And to find out if TT does take responsibility for his problems with the right counseling and support?

    I am glass half full kind of guy and I believe, even a person like TT can change. However, I believe, a part of doing that for TT would be to go back and look at some of the family dynamics that has caused this. It will be interesting to watch the next generation of Grahams as this unfolds.

    A recommended reading would be Joshua Straub/Tim Clinton and the new book “Safe house”. Any house can become “uneven” if they focus on truth without grace or grace without truth. And he describe a primarily Christian phenomen of houses that are lopsided. He describes the idea of Christian houses that make it emotionally unsafe! The idea of emotional safety needs to become more front and center in the Christian families and Christian Churches!

    My .02c worth on the subject! 🙂

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  43. I had some bad wording in my message: Replace “family dynamics that has caused this” with ” family dynamics that has set up unhealthy patterns in his own life” .

    We should never blame family of origin for issues that are our responsibility…. but our families do set up patterns of behavior that we pass down.

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  44. When I was trained as a therapeutic foster mom, I was taught that empathy is like language; it either happens during its allotted time frame (in the first years of life) or it doesn’t. The brain is openly receiving this information in the early years and then the time frame passes and the brain moves on. Once the personality is formed, if empathy isn’t part of it, it doesn’t happen later. (Empathy, conscience, trust, truthfulness and cause-and-effect thinking are all related.)

    A person who is missing empathy is kind of like a person who is missing a limb. It isn’t there and it’s not just suddenly going to appear out of nowhere. You can’t “reform” this person because they were never “formed,” you can’t appeal to something back in their life previous because it was never there. As they grow up, they watch people to see how they operate and relate, and they mimic what they see (some get pretty good at it) but the underlying feelings/values are not there.

    I’m not saying God can’t do a miracle and create a conscience in someone who is lacking one (Nebuchadnezzar might be an example) but- I just wouldn’t wait around holding my breath or get any fanciful ideas of what my input in their life might accomplish.

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  45. Jesus isn’t just “full of” grace and truth, he IS grace and truth; it flows from him. 🙂

    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

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  46. Also, on empathy: without being closely involved with a person it’s hard to judge what is going on with them. You might come to the conclusion from afar that a person is lacking empathy but without psychological testing, it’s just a guess. A number of different things can look the same from the outside. Power corrupts. Bad company corrupts good morals. People with good looks, great social skills and ambition can get such distorted feedback that they go off track. God knows. But we need to be wise and discerning and realize the limits of our own influence in cases like these.

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  47. Interesting commentary Shy 1. I am reminded through Scriptures of Saul, renamed Apostle Paul, how he power brokered Christians to be martyred by his command, until one day, on that mighty road to Damascus, he literally met our LORD Jesus. The result of this confrontation was a miracle for Saul was brought to his knees in brokenness, had to rely on others to stay alive in the flesh, and his heart and mind were transformed only through the power of God, the Holy Spirit.

    The Apostle Paul did bear full responsibility of his own wickedness and evil. He did not blame others in the flesh, nor make excuses for his murdering ways and at first, the general public were suspicious of this man named Saul, now Paul. This cold, hardened heart, now had compassion, empathy and love for Jesus and those who professed Christ with their mouths and lives of service for Him, born again believers.

    Can this same miracle be happening today? Yes, only by the power of the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus through His Word. This power never corrupts or perverts what God says in His Word, but in fact, always, always, always leads the human spirit, including adults, to Jesus and His teachings.

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  48. I so agree Shy1 on when and where empathy “disorders” occur. During the formative years. This is also where “biblical counseling” misses the mark. It neglects the idea that abuse or the harder to see “emotional abandonment” ever happened since it makes everything sin and personal responsibility. All speculation… but a good discussion. And liked you said its hard to discern from far away as to what really happened,

    However, good counselor (very hard to find) are trained for abuse and abandonment and can bring people to healthier place. It will require a long hard look at how emotionally mature or immature TT really is and the patterns got him there.

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  49. “Antinomian .. great word. It’s companion opposite is legalism. Gods truth is full of Truth AND Grace. Truth tends get abusive by legalists. Grace gets abused by the antimoniam. In the middle I am calling “healthy”. Often a legalist has position of Jesus Christ but not the posture. Often the antinomian has the posture of Jesus Christ without always holding the right position.”

    Jesus called the Pharisees antinomian. He said they ignored justice in addition to mercy. You seen to think Jesus did away with basic justice when others are harmed. Some think magic words do it.

    There is another interesting view of antinomian in 1 John that does not fit the typical use of cheap grace anecdote to legalism we hear so much about in evangelicalism these days.

    For some reason most of evangelicalism these days think we should throw out the idea of being trustworthy people of character. Especially for those who sell Jesus for a living. I just don’t get it. The standards seem to be lower for them. I have seen this same cheap grace go out the window when giving is down. :o)

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  51. From 2008 on Pat Robertson:

    (As an aside, what some in my parents generation who knew the Grahams have referred to as something of an “arranged marriage”, Tullians mom , Gigi, married the son of a very wealthy Swiss businessman at the age of 17)

    However, in this clip, Tullian maintains he was raised in a loving home. I wonder if he and his siblings all had trust funds.

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  52. I believe the history of the word aninomian was originated by Martin Luther in year 15xx. Most often used by denominations that pride themselves between having the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. A difficult balance.

    The critique against Pharisees was Matt 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, I desire mercy not sacrifice”. The same phrase was also said Hos 6:6. The keepers of so called biblical truth were using that truth abusively/manipulatively and did not see the issues of their own heart or their own need for a savior. The words go and learn what this means, I believe, says this is not an easy to understand or “to do” truth. Jesus wants to ponder that truth and mull it over daily.

    I personally do not see a lot of critique by Jesus of the pharisees being antinomian in scripture. Maybe you can lead me to the scripture.

    I do agree that TT was clearly angled the antinomian direction… but to swing to the polar opposite is just as bad if not worse.

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  53. “As they grow up, they watch people to see how they operate and relate, and they mimic what they see (some get pretty good at it) but the underlying feelings/values are not there.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    I’ve worked beside a handful of people in the church or the corporate world who I’d guess met the criteria for NPD (or whatever they call it under DSM-5, “antisocial personality disorder”?). Having spent fair time in both, it appears based on my anecdotal experience as if the disorder is more common among church leaders than among any group in the private sector (there was that recent scholarly research out of Canada which put the percentage of NPDs among pastors at something like 25% overall and 40% for those in their 20s or 30s, which is stunning, because the numbers for the general population are very low, a few percent maybe, and dealing with one with NPD essentially means that you’re dealing with someone who simply could not care less about you, perhaps would just as soon slit your throat, so long as they perceived it would benefit them. Amazing to think that nearly half of all young pastors might be conscienceless monsters–though it would explain a lot that we experience and recount here.

    One thing I wonder about is what you said about the lack of values. Is it possible for someone to lack empathy, to be a full blown NPD, yet still have the values? I.e., they might feel no empathy, but know in their hearts that to slander or murder you is wrong, and thus refuse to do it. Could someone with NPD somehow come to know the Lord and navigate through life simply making the right decisions because they know they’re right? I ask this not in pure abstraction, we have a large family, some children have great empathy, some, brought up in the same environment, struggle with this. What of one with aspergers or tendencies on that spectrum? They struggle with empathy a great deal, yet I’ve known such people who undeniably knew the Lord, yet have a great deal of difficulty with empathy. I’m not a psychologist, so just talking as a layman.

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  54. “I believe the history of the word aninomian was originated by Martin Luther in year 15xx. Most often used by denominations that pride themselves between having the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. A difficult balance.”

    The Greek means “against law”. Luther did not originate the word or the understanding. Most protestants think all understanding comes from the Reformation. Off the top of my head, we see it in Matthew 23 and I John 3

    “The critique against Pharisees was Matt 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, I desire mercy not sacrifice”. The same phrase was also said Hos 6:6. The keepers of so called biblical truth were using that truth abusively/manipulatively and did not see the issues of their own heart or their own need for a savior. The words go and learn what this means, I believe, says this is not an easy to understand or “to do” truth. Jesus wants to ponder that truth and mull it over daily.”

    The real critique is Matthew 23

    “I personally do not see a lot of critique by Jesus of the pharisees being antinomian in scripture. Maybe you can lead me to the scripture.”

    See above. One of the problems is how we have been taught about the law, covenants, etc. It is a mess in most of Protestant and Catholic theologies. People will believe just about anything that keeps them being responsible for their behavior. Whether God determined it or they can say a few words and make the consequences go away. They think there is no law or that the law is strict adherence to Leviticus. They are not taught why God gave the Isrealites the law after centuries of slavery bondage with Pagans. And they are not taught that truth that God has always preferred we practice mercy and justice…even in the OT. You would think His going to the Cross and subsequent resurrection would get their attention. He conquered death and sin has no power over us to make us want to harm others….unless we allow it.

    “I do agree that TT was clearly angled the antinomian direction… but to swing to the polar opposite is just as bad if not worse. ”

    I am not clear on what you think the opposite is. I would hate to live in a world with no laws. There could be no justice.

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  55. Hi Lydia.

    I understand your connection but I don’t interpret Matthew 23 as a warning against antinomianism. its a bit more general than that and its just as applicable to the pharisee “being fastidiously good for God” but not necessarily seeing the sin of his own heart. As a matter of fact it is a reminder of exactly that!

    1 John is a better example. The law shows us our sin and implores us to action,,, but Romans reminds us or our total inability to please God based on our efforts. We all have no right to look down on any other sinner …. and no matter who we talk to we should have an “eye to eye” relationship rather than look down on them.

    Then Romans builds up to Romans 12 where it says “In view of Gods mercy to offer our bodies as living and pleasing sacrifices, Holy and pleasing to God. The words too oft forgotten is “In view of Gods mercy”.

    Sorry, hope you take the minor disagreement respectfully! If not I will stop. 🙂

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  56. To be honest no one can change Tullian except Tullian. However, we in the church can learn lessons from this and change ourselves so we don’t get caught up in messes like this!! If we don’t learn those lessons then we will keep going down this rabbit trail over and over and over and over. I am too old and too tired to keep getting my heart broken over these things all the time.

    I really want to learn to see the signs and avoid leadership like this. I don’t want to vote a person to be a leader in the church like these guys we have been discussing. Something is wrong with us in the pew that we keep falling for people like this and give them our hearts, money and power.

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  57. Centrality, I have no problem with disagreement. In my view it is iron sharpening iron. Early on you claimed to be a fan of Tullians but it seems you are now saying he did lean to far on the antinomian side.

    The lawless position is here in Matthew 23

    23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the other”

    The Jews were to be the light of the world. Neglecting justice oppresses people. Neglecting justice means there cannot be mercy. God is a good God. A good God does not ignore injustice toward innocents and He does not want us to, either.

    Tullians message turns being bad into being a good thing. There is a lot more to this which includes how we view the cross/resurrection but I suspect we are boring others. :o)

    Btw: I totally disagree with you about Romans which you end up contradicting with your explanation of 1John. Most Protestants read it as about individual salvation. I read it as explaining the Jew/Gentile dichotomy (corporate election) that was becoming a big problem in Rome as the Jews (including converted Jews) were coming back after being banished by Claudius. The Gentiles Christians in Rome knew nothing of the Law of these strange segregated people they were now to be united with in their small house churches around Rome.. To argue that Law was a big problem for them or they needed to understand the grace/law arguments so used today, sadly, seems to miss the point.

    Do some backtracking on Romans 3 and what Paul is quoting and why. Romans cannot be proof texted. You cannot even lift a chapter! It is a long culminating treatise on the Jew/Gentile path to salvation with lots of twists and turns.

    Yes we CAN please God. We see Him saying so in the OT.

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  58. Interesting commentary here and Mrs. C, you have a great point for we see the effects of wicked leadership playing the same old broken record of lording it over Jesus’ sheep. Having come out of an abusive Assembly of God religious system, the ‘sinning’ pastor frequently blamed satan for all of his lustful behavior. He would always say, “We’re going to kick some devil butt!”

    My observations on all of this sexual perversion within the religious system, combined with all of the excuses and scapegoating on the part of the leadership network, is this:

    There are some spoiled rotten personalities within visible Christianity who have this entitlement mentality and were probably not told the word “No” very often during their growing up years, nor were they disciplined properly in their families according to ways of our LORD. These religious leader types were probably the “center” of attention frequently, using their charm and charismatic personality in getting everything they desired in life. And when they got caught stealing the cookie from mom’s cookie jar so to speak……the blame was shoved off on another family member, the neighbor, the friend, the family pet, or a funny story was offered up as a way to soften up the situation, so there was never any punishment for the consequences of their bad behavior. These very dangerous individuals learned the ways of power and control, manipulation and coerciveness at an early age in using people to their advantage. Remember, Moses was not a gifted speaker, nor was the Apostle Paul…..they were not slick tongued.

    And when these highly important religious individuals are caught in their sin and their bag of scapegoating tricks do not work anymore, they turn around and blame satan for their wicked and evil ways. And the blind religious laity falls for the same song and dance, feeling sorry for the pastor/leader wolf in sheep’s clothing and keeping him in the position of authority over the church system.

    Oh, but when the lower laity dog exhibits the same sin, the spoiled rotten pastor/leaders do not pour out the same love, mercy, and grace afforded to the wicked, evil leader. Oh heavens no! I have witnessed the double standards played out over and over again in every church system that I have attended for which I now call it the ‘the churches’ selective service program.’ Selective mercy, selective grace, selective love, selective compassion, selective empathy, selective damage control, selective forgiveness, SELECTIVE everything depending upon who you are and how you can be used within the false religious system. Even ‘selective hate, selective destruction, and selective shunning/excommunication against those who are not brainwashed by the wicked religious system at hand.

    And what appears to be the visible form of Christianity will hate you with a passion, when you choose to leave the lordship of wicked men and women, and choose to follow and believe on our LORD Jesus Christ as His Free Servant. So what about the priesthood of every believer…….knowing this truth is actually liberating!

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  59. Hi Lydia, Respectful disagreement again. I am betting you belong to a Church of Nazarene to Methodist Church from your interpretation that you are using? In that respect we would have a different “lens” in which we view scripture. 🙂

    I do agree Jesus came to intensify the law. However, he did not do in a way that did not “double down” on the law. He did it in way that emphasized Mercy grace and compassion toward sinners. (Matt 9:13).

    Paul himself called himself a Pharisee better than all pharisees. Paul is described in scripture as “faultless in legalistic righteoussness as pharisee — which, I believe, is the a good definition of a pharisee. When it came to the “law keeping”, above reproach. Paul lived as a Pharisee and kept the law according to the strictest sect of the religion, Hebrew of Hebrews, faultless in legalistic righteousness (See Phil 3:5).

    Justice, in my opinion was clearly a part of what the pharisees did. What they neglected was compassion and mercy. All because they did not see their own sin because of the “great acts of legalistic righteousness”. As it says in the scripture below is the Pharisee was “confident” of his own righteousness. The word righteousness is a word that is rich in meaning in scripture and the world has issue in where they find their righteousness.

    A great example of the difference between a pharisee and “a sinner” is in the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector. Believe me in this scripture the pharisee wanted his version of “justice”. What he lacked was the compassion, mercy, and the ability to see his own sin. He looked down on the tax collector. You see the same thing in scripture when you see Jesus at the Pharisees house with the sinful woman.

    The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
    9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

    13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

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  60. In terms of the Matthew 23 reference on Hypocrisy.

    The best thing to take away from that as you look at all the scriptures is:

    Everyone is a hypocrite. Will we be irritating hypocrites who can do no wrong, or endearing ones who humbly own our faults and frailties?

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  61. TruthDetector, I’m not an expert, I just have an interest in these things because of a few people I have had involvement with in my life, so I’ve done a lot of reading. The question of NPD vs autism comes up because autistic people have difficulty ascertaining what others are feeling and responding appropriately. As I understand it, the autistic person does have empathy in the broader sense, though, they know what it is to experience love, be hurt, etc, and they do not want to hurt the people they love. They simply are unable to express it. I’ve read that some autistic people feel others’ pain more extremely than normal and so avoid connecting with others, even.

    The NPD person, on the other hand has no idea what others feel because they do not experience it. They don’t feel love, they don’t feel shame, they don’t feel guilt or remorse. These feelings are missing from their experience. They can become very skillful at looking as if they do, though, because they realize that to get what they want, they have to speak the language of us normal people. The NPD can learn the rules and follow them as far as it takes to achieve their goals, since they know breaking the rules will lead to disapproval and loss of things they want, but the rules themselves are not internalized as moral beliefs. The NPD therefore has a public and a private self, the public one is a facade designed to get them where they want to be. The private one is the real thing.

    Maybe someone with training could chime in and give more info but this is how I understand it.

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  62. Shy1, Like you no expert. I have a good friend that runs a 60+ counselor counseling that is NOT in a church…. but they hire only Christians. She specializes in abuse, abandonment, NPD, etc. All the more than a common cold variety of counseling cases!

    https://www.quora.com/Is-Narcissistic-Personality-Disorder-treatable

    From the site:
    The way to make inroads is to go to the source issue; the abandoned child. The starving child who now needs an endless supply of pats on the head. Money, sex, power, prestige, fame, will never be enough. What ever level is achieved gets normalized so another more intense level must be used to prove worth. It all goes back to abandonment. If we can get that inner child ,The Blessing, that hyper-possessive/achievement externally driven can calm down and relax. Once the soul of that child is full-filled, there is no manic fear of constant loss. Good enough is normalized as the grief and loss the child was always under is acknowledged and healed. No more performing for value. A human being can be present instead of an ass-hole of a manipulator.

    So the emotional side can then risk exposure and make mistakes instead of being one. Empathy can be accessed to allow real connection with others. In real life, the narcissist has many survival habits which are difficult to change at best. Many aspects have to be constantly monitored and corrected. A good partner and or group is critical for real time feedback. Lots of AA groups are full of narcissist who used alcohol as boosters and are now learning to feel not only themselves, but have empathy for others. So improvements can be had. But it generally takes a lot of work and time to not have a flinch response anytime they feel they are losing in some way, shape, or form. With practice being clean, a real boy can be made out of Pinocchio.

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  63. Also, like I said previously I have a glass half full mentality… I so believe those words above “With practice being clean, a real boy can be made out of Pinocchio.”

    🙂

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  64. Antinomianism vs legalism…
    If we have truly believed, Christ delivered us from the law and its penalty.
    We are no longer under the law, we no longer live by law.
    We will not suffer the penalty of the law, Christ took our suffering on himself.
    He made us new creations. He changed our hearts.

    Does this mean we should “continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” Romans 6:1-2

    If we love Christ, we do not want to sin against him. Not for fear of punishment but because we love him. If we love Christ, we are already sinning more than we want to.

    Yes, we still fail. Look at Peter, in spite of loving Christ and wanting in his heart to support him to death, he denied him 3 times.

    Did Peter need the law to make him repent?
    Did he need accountability and discipline to force him to see his error and do the right thing? No, he only needed Christ’s gaze to meet his, and the depths of his betrayal cut him to the heart. He went out and wept bitterly.

    Do you think Peter continued to boast of his great loyalty to Christ after this experience? Do you think he continued to betray Christ and then weep bitterly, only to do it again and again? I doubt it. I expect that one experience never left him and if he could, he would have gone back and undone it.

    I see the difference between legalism and our position as new creations in Christ as this:

    When you love someone, you don’t need a list of rules to check your behavior against every day, with penalties to scare you into doing what’s right. You automatically think of how your behavior would affect them when you do it because you care about them.

    As an example, one person avoids committing adultery because there is a rule against it and they’d get in trouble and look bad.
    Another person hates the very thought of adultery because they love their spouse and would:
    1. be appalled at the thought of joining to someone else and
    2. be heartbroken at the thought of causing pain to the person they love

    The end result may look the same but the heart attitude is a difference of night and day! It is the heart attitude that is the important thing.

    It is a difficult difference to put into words and writing, yet we can often discern when we are with a couple if they truly love one another or the marriage is a loveless resignation to following rules. The heart attitude is different.

    James 2:18
    “show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

    If you love someone, your overall behavior cannot help but show it, even if at times you mess up.

    Romans 13:8-10
    Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

    1 John 4:19
    “We love, because He first loved us.”

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  66. Centrality, Methodists are basically Protestant. I am not really identified with any group. The reformed Neo Cals accuse me of being Pelagian. Which I find interesting since most of what we know from him comes from his detractors like Augustine. And I see Augustine as introducing a system of Christianity that merged in Greek paganism.

    We won’t get far if you keep talking law. Can we agree that scripture has that focus because Jews were the early church. What do we Gentiles have to do with law except to understand the Trajectory of how God tried to get a people on the right path thinking of Him every minute? (Which is what Romans is about)

    We have made an unnecessary enemy of the law. If it was that important, Jesus would never have bothered with John the Baptist, an outlier, who disdained the temple and Jerusalem! Yet, He made a point to bother with Him.

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  67. Centrality, is your friend the one person on that page who thinks NPD is treatable? Out of all the other professionals who say no?

    My own experience is the NPD plays the counselor just as they play everyone else. They’re always playing a role, always learning how to manipulate better. It’s easy to figure out a counselor’s vulnerabilities and exploit them, a simple game to the NPD.

    Unfortunately, there is no way to go back and redo infancy. The brain is never open in the same way again. Treatment, if you want to call it that, consists of convincing the NPD that certain behaviors are more likely to serve them than others.

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  68. Methodists and Nazarenes are Christians/portestants too. I agree. 🙂

    I have been on both sides of the fence. Calvinism and Arminian/semi-pelagian. I made a decision to read Greg Boyd and Arminian theology as if it were true for several years. IN other words, I did not want to ready Greg as a critique before I started. I wanted to keep an open mind. I made an about turn to return back to my gospel-centric roots at some point… hence my name. I agree with him on some points … on other points I disagree.

    I remember a Pastor friend one say that both the Calvinist both sides use “human reason” to interpret scripture in different ways. The calvinist has a high regard for Gods sovereignty and providence. The Arminian values Gods love and free-will.

    What he said then left an impact, [Our denomination] has a lens that interprets scripture through the Gospels and the eyes of Christ. And we can let seemingly paradoxical truths exist without using human reason or even being a fundamentalist church. I love being part of a Church that gets to say “we don’t have all the answers”.

    For 10 years I really missed that Gospel-centric thinking and I feel good having returned to a Church that seems emotionally healthy and theologically stable … and centered on Christ.

    Anyhow fun conversation for me…. boring for others I am sure.

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  69. Shy,

    My friend discusses NPD once in while when she advises us at Marriage Rebuilders…a ministry for Marriages in crisis. So we talk in detail once a year or so and NPD comes up once in a while… context.

    I believe she would say the same as the link I sent you. Treatable… yes …. but likelihood is low that a person will develop the awareness required and then stick to all the hard work required.

    Sometimes she uses the word manageable more than treatable. NPD is also a spectrum disorder and at the end of the day we are guessing at TT’s issues.

    However, I still believe if the pain and abandonment issues can be seen by an individual, I believe they can make some good progress. However, who wants to confess or think that the loving, Graham family has any issues?

    One of the issues with abandonment is that emotional abandonment often comes from “loving homes”. Nobody wants to think a loving mother or father emotionally abandoned you. And by abandonment I don’t mean that a parent left the house. It often means we did not get the right training from our parents… often maybe they did not have the skills themselves or they were managing other earthquake events when we were growing up and they were not available to help the children.

    I once heard another friend/counselor say say if the record does not have the grooves you cant play the song. Abandonment makes it so you don’t have all the grooves in the first place. How can you work on or with something you never had in the first place.

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  70. Shy… one last thing I remember her saying…. I love this friend and her husband and all the tidbits I get from them, btw. She often uses the word “emotional muscle memory” and she reminds us that the brain is plastic and we can learn to use emotional muscles in new ways. It takes learning some emotional excercises and lots of practice to work those muscles and it feels very awkward at first to work them.

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  71. “Everyone is a hypocrite. Will we be irritating hypocrites who can do no wrong, or endearing ones who humbly own our faults and frailties?”

    A hypocrite, by definition, is someone who pretends to hold beliefs while acting in opposition to them privately, so someone who is open about their failures would not be a hypocrite, exactly. Nevertheless, the ideal would be to move on to better things.

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  72. Centrality, that can be helpful for someone who experienced abandonment or abuse AFTER their personality was formed. For someone whose personality was formed without conscience, there is no memory to go back to. As I said, it is like a missing limb. You can’t learn conscience. It’s either there or it isn’t. And if it isn’t by about age 5 it’s not going to happen.

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  73. “For 10 years I really missed that Gospel-centric thinking”

    I wish I knew what that meant. I hear it all the time at ground zero from the Neo Cals and it has become somewhat of a Christianese mantra.

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  74. I think we should keep in mind that certain religious beliefs encourage a narcissistic mindset. For example, if one believes they are a part of the Christian elite, or Christian royalty, this lends to seeing others in as merely a stepping stone to bigger and better things. The ends will justify the means but in God’s world He is concerned with ends and means. I would say there are a lot of people in the church that holds to these beliefs instead of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many of them are in leadership and because the church has become so illiterate in the Bible they can’t spot it.

    These leaders, like Tullian, refuse to dialog/debate with their peers/other leaders who are literate in the Scriptures. The prefer to control the dialog by going to the illiterate like Good Morning America on FOX, or Morning Joe, because they know they will never be asked hard theological questions where they have to make a Biblically coherent case for their preaching using the whole Bible. Folks like Tullian can preach on one subject, that appeals to the masses, at the exclusion of the many other doctrines in the Bible and get away with it. He is loved and worshiped because he appeals to so many heart needs. They appear to have higher knowledge then others, or secret knowledge, so you must go to them to get it or read their books to figure it out. The are radical and not boring. These guys constantly talk about their experiences with the Gospel because no one can argue with a person’s experience. All experiences are valid and no one can questioned an experience, or ask for proofs. Time that the church stops the insanity in my opinion!

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  75. Kay, your analysis is well reasoned and I appreciate it. Your insight also applies to Bob Coy’s sin, non-confession, and non-apology.

    This April marks two years since Coy was confronted and resigned. He has yet to confess, apologize to the congregation and, to my knowledge, repent. He has not confessed! All that has been told to the church is secondhand.

    Every time Coy’s name is mentioned, it rips open the scars again. The revisited pain is compounded by comments from those who clamor for his return. We are told, if Coy is mentioned, to pray for him.

    I truly hope (and suppose that I should pray) that Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale’s leaders do not mark the “anniversary” of Coy’s sin with an “update.” The only update I want to hear is that Bob Coy is greatly sorrowful for the damage he did to his family and the women he slept with, as well as the hundreds of people who trusted him as their Senior Pastor.

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  76. Lydia,

    Yes, your right. The neo calvs or calvs often discuss a “gospel-gap” in theology. I would agree but often see an “emotional immaturity” on people that hang on to one extreme side of theology or the other. The idea of emotional maturity is one of my mantras as I live out my faith. And I believe gospel-centric should lead to emotional maturity. If it does not, its probaly not as gospel-centric as one thinks it is.

    Probably way too long of a thought to make clear on a BLOG so will leave these links:

    https://centralityofthegospel.wordpress.com/i-have-a-dream/
    https://centralityofthegospel.wordpress.com/gospel-life-applications/

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  77. I have never heard of a “Gospel gap” in Theology but that everything is to be “Gospel centered”. Sounds good but It is getting into the daily praxis where it breaks down. The Good News is the Good News. It is done. What we do with its truths is another matter. I read your link and am more confused with the merging of Covey and scripture. What you suggest only works if both parties are on the same page. Cheap grace bought Coral Ridge a clever con man.

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  78. Lydia, I think TT preached grace at the exclusion of everything else. I thought it was lopsided teaching. My friends keep saying he is extra-Biblical which means he adds not takes away. TT was invited several times to debate, and defend his position, with other teachers of the Word. He turned it down. I only saw him once on stage with four other men at a Baptist seminary who were Bible literate and they lobbed him soft questions. TT’s responses went to default mode, which is sharing his experiences with the Gospel, who can argue with one’s experiences, pulling out snappy quotes from other teachers which gives the impression he is well read, and using humor, which makes him likable. When you see TT in comparison to other men, that teach the Bible, it is enlightening. I think this is why he avoided this format and always opted for the one man show that he controlled. TT seemed out of his element and could not take several Bible verses to defend his doctrines on the Bible. If only TT is on the stage and he controls he flow of information one never notices it. I think it is easy to get drawn into his stage presence. I would be interested in finding out if TT wrote his own books or someone else did it for him.

    One thing I noticed with both TT and Coy is that they come from that party boy background. I think the church has to have a special safety net for Pastors like this since they have a tendency to revert to negative behaviors, abusing people, places or things, when under pressure/stress. I don’t think the church can divorce the Pastor’s history from present realities and triggers. Elders should be aware of the signs and hold their feet to the fire when they cross over the line. The safety net also protects the person in the pew from getting sucked into the abuses. Most men with addiction problems tend to revert back when they are at the height of success. It is a danger point because they think they are doing so well that they can handle the old stuff they use to engage in.

    Liked by 1 person

  79. Kay, I totally agree. In fact, I hate to say it, but it’s almost like a “rock star” atmosphere exists in the church where in this case, TT felt the messenger was bigger than the message and acted accordingly. Nonetheless, I’m still puzzled by how these affairs happen. Do they start innocently in “counseling sessions”, or do some women become fascinated / drawn into the mega church celebrity culture and act like some type of gospel groupie?

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  80. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher

  81. Great insight, Kay. I think being BG grandson also gave him more of a pass that pro -longed his career. He is a hollow man. There is no there, there. All hat and no cattle as John Wayne would say.

    Sadly, that sort of show biz approach is wildly popular in cult of personality cultures like we are in now.

    Do you think an uncharismatic short fat bald man could become president without some sort of shock jock shtick? Or, an ugly woman who is policy centered but no war chest? I seriously doubt it. People love their Kardashian “Christian” celebs who tell them what they want to hear.

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  82. You guys are talking EXACTLY to the gospel gap idea in the last few posts.

    Scripture is full of Truth AND Grace. Notice the AND … or ampersand! Truth without grace is not ALL the truth. And Grace without truth is not really grace. It is a hard and difficult thing to do wisely and in the same proportions as Jesus himself! Kay is right about lopsided… we have lots of “gaps” on both sides today.

    Truth gives us the right position but grace gives us the proper posture toward others that struggle with various things.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ tells us…
    We are more sinful and weak than we ever cared to admit AND… (TRUTH)
    We are more loved and accepted than we ever dared to hope. (Grace)

    Peace!

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  83. “Celebrianity” — groupies are, in part, about the proximity to power inflating their own sense of identity. How easy then for groupies to become proxies who protect and promote their idol … perpetuating the name and the fame, while others continue to get harmed by their little games.

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  84. I’m hoping one day we will hear how these sexual relationships begin. An affair is mutual consent. There cannot be consent in a sexual relationship when one person is in a position of authority over another.

    Liked by 2 people

  85. Hey look, a bird!

    I feel like I live in neo-Calv central here in Minnesota. Piper people are everywhere! And I find it hard to swallow the language… Believe me — I have tried so hard to “finish” a book of his. 🙂

    Although I have to admit I like Tim Keller more than Piper just because of his phrasology. Position and Posture again.

    What I find sad is TT had issues and multiple broken relationships with the Gospel coalition– people that supposedly shared his same theological leanings. I am betting the long line of broken relationships started long before his stint at Coral Ridge. Something the search committee should have been aware of rather than just being enamored with his “bloodline”.

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  86. “The Gospel of Jesus Christ tells us…
    We are more sinful and weak than we ever cared to admit AND… (TRUTH)”

    I learned from CJ Mahaney that when a long time Christian tells you over and over how sinful and weak they are, it is best to believe them and take appropriate measures of protection. :o)

    Liked by 1 person

  87. Centrality, I read some of your articles. Could you elucidate a little more? Tell me- who is Jesus Christ? What did he do for us?

    Liked by 1 person

  88. “I’ve worked beside a handful of people in the church or the corporate world who I’d guess met the criteria for NPD (or whatever they call it under DSM-5, “antisocial personality disorder”?). Having spent fair time in both, it appears based on my anecdotal experience as if the disorder is more common among church leaders than among any group in the private sector (there was that recent scholarly research out of Canada which put the percentage of NPDs among pastors at something like 25% overall and 40% for those in their 20s or 30s, which is stunning, because the numbers for the general population are very low, a few percent maybe, and dealing with one with NPD essentially means that you’re dealing with someone who simply could not care less about you, perhaps would just as soon slit your throat, so long as they perceived it would benefit them. ”

    You’re describing ASPD. Both that and Narcissistic Personality Disorder reside at a clinical level in 1% of the population. Masterson refers to the NPD as the “inflated false self,” as opposed to the BPD (3-6% of the population, clinically) as the “deflated false self.” pwBPD can also have narcissistic traits without being full blown BPD. At the core of these disorders, which are really oft-disagreed upon and controversial criteria debated hotly during every DSM revision, is self-worship and idolatry. Though there can be some genetic predispositions (anyone who works with or has had more than one kid knows the truth that people come wired differently), it reinforces the concept of being good shepherds as parents. Core abandonment wounds equate with not being loved, Imagine being told as a child that you weren’t wanted by your mother, or being told by your father that he wasn’t sure you were his daughter, in addition to growing up in a household full of violence and neglect, both physical and emotional? At the end of the day, however, having a personality disorder (a man-defined construct, even if solid clinical data supports the definition) is no excuse for sin.

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  89. My understanding of Tullian getting his job at Coral was that the church’s first two choices said no. Keep in mind that Mrs. Kennedy and her daughter were on the pastor search committee and Tullian’s church was not far from Coral. He was not an unknown to Coral people. A few from the search committee started pursuing Tullian without the support of the others, my understandings is that they didn’t know dialog was going on. It blossomed from there. The church already had a culture within the culture where a group of roughly 300 were active in a contemporary service, no robes and no cultural mandate emphasized. Tullian didn’t bring it to the church. The merger was to allow Dr. Kennedy’s established ministries to keep going, they employed a lot of people and in the case of EE it is an international ministry. Doesn’t make sense to disband active, international work for the Lord. Tullian could develop the other side. Seems to me that merger was mismanaged from the start . Tullian had the under 30 crowd and Coral had the resources/facilities. It seemed like a win-win for everyone.

    I think that people in ministry that come from addicted backgrounds have a larger learning curve. They are usually described as a diamond in the rough or given more empathy due to their backgrounds. Sometimes they become the poster child for the Gospel, like look what God can do!! If churches want Pastors like this they must have a plan in place for a Pastor with “special needs”. There are various reasons a person abused people, places and things. It has to be address and dealt with in leadership. A plan of accountability and consequences needs to be spelled out. If broken it needs to be dealt with and not sweep under the rug. I think people that were addicted have a hard time self regulating and the church seems to think now that person is saved so they need nothing else!!! The are healed but it seems to me that healing takes a lifetime for them.

    My personal take is that we offer the Pastor all sorts of helps and counseling after these things but I think the church should pay for the wife’s counseling and the women that were abused by power. We seem to only “love” the pastor back to health in this and leave out all those others that are deeply wounded by the fall out. I am really shocked that Steve Brown, the elders and Tullian had betrayed Tullian’s wife all these years and that they could even look her in the face. She is a member of the body of Christ and I don’t think she was treated with love and respect at all.

    Seems to me that we in the pew really don’t know how these Christian elite live behind closed doors. We don’t know these people on any personal level. We see an image. Para-church groups are falling between the cracks on accountability. I have to wonder if Steve Brown ever brought up the Tullian issue with his board??! Who holds him accountable for his actions as the leader of Key Life? He has conveniently said he was not in a position of authority in the churches in order to get a pass, but he does have a board that governs his para-church group. If the churches have no authority over para-church groups then who does and how does that work? How can we apply scriptures in these cases of para church groups or do they even apply?

    Liked by 1 person

  90. There were some within Coral, who moved on early, that didn’t believe Tullian was a true Christian from the get go. Others that thought he was are now questioning it. Billy Graham had inaugurated Coral in the beginning so this was “Christian Karma” having Tullian.

    Probably at some future point Tullian will say he is a sex addict which gives a further pass. I have a feeling we will get more info on the story as believers unload. A book is in the making to manage the image I think. Everyone loves that Christian “Rocky” story or come back kid. We have to give God that success story!

    In addition to the church dealing with accountability of Para Church organizations I think we need to re-visit this whole book writing deals. I believe it does more harm than good to the Body of Christ. Makes the author a ton of money. If the Pastor is making tons of money off books he becomes quite independent and then who is he accountable to? Does the church monitor his book business that he has made off his church image? I mean these guys can’t make all this money if they didn’t have the church platform that was formulated by donations.

    The Tullian issue opens up a lot to talk about I think. Will the church do the hard thing and dialog??? Are we going to learn anything from this? I appreciate people like Julie Ann that bring different perspectives to the table. I am not sure that only one blog will do much within the body of Christ although she is making great points on other people’s blogs. Most believers have been told we should not talk about it because it deters unbelievers or gives them fodder to diss the Gospel. More ways to keep things secret in the church instead of making the church a safe place for everyone.

    Liked by 2 people

  92. It is odd seeing this thread since I have had interactions with both these men since I attended CCFL and TTs kids attended the CCFL school. I will withhold from saying any more here but JA you can email me.

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  93. Shy,

    I belong to an LCMC church. Lutheran Churches on a mission for Christ. As such, we see Jesus as Messiah and Savior, Triune! My blog is meant more as a thought process as to how the Gospel works as we live out our lives with other sinners. I see my church, currently, as a Church that is emotionally healthy and allows disagreement. At least from my perspective.

    I am 52 (almost 53) and I have my own stories of what JA went through. Not so much from a Church but from individuals that belong to such churches.

    I read this last night from a book called “Reading the Gospels wisely” by Jonathon Pennington. He says “As we conclude our two two chapter discussion of hermeneutics, my final point is that the most important and discriminate aspect of reading Holy scripture is not our method or theory but our posture and our goal”

    Posture and goal! Disagree or agree with that statement…. its one I believe is so true. A CJ Mahaney or TT would continuously beat people over method, theory, and theology and when they got blocked or heard “no” their guard hairs would stand up.

    Lydia, funny! :-). But then again you are semi-pelagian! 🙂

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  94. “Lydia, funny! . But then again you are semi-pelagian! ”

    Let’s us make it our calling to help warn and protect more people from these perpetually sinning pastors who see basic honesty. character and integrity as “works salvation”.

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  95. Lydia, when I belonged to a Church that was Arminian and touting human responsiblity/character/integrity the Pastor got busted for soliciting hookers. The same issue is on both sides of the fence theologically.

    My thoughts are no matter what side of the fence you are on what does it look like to be emotionally mature as a leader. I believe that is the missing ingredient more than a theological one.

    Apologies if I triggered you on something. I was rather enjoying having a difference of opinion. It was not mean to be a poke.

    Either way…. we both know we have different views.

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  96. Maybe once the worn out jean look came on the scene, and it was acceptable to see this casual version of the Pastor, attitudes changed. I remember a respected Pastor once saying from the pulpit that he wanted to be more professionally dressed than anyone who attended. If a physician is dressed for respect, why not a Pastor? I am sure there would be a lot of opposition to what I just wrote, and of course the way someone dresses doesn’t dictate what is in their heart, but I do remember when my Pastor started dressing more casually…something changed in him, and I do think the way you dress sometimes dictates your attitude. IMO there is just too much wooing the young crowd. In my area, I have walked out of many churches because there are teens on stage with strobe lights and electric guitars. Maybe a new generation but it just doesn’t feel right to me. Of course I am insignificant at at,most 60 years old! What’s in a mans heart is not as a result of his dress, but the easy grace movement, the hip, 200.00 jean wearing Pastor, the wooing the young with rock music…something has changed. Anyone agree?

    Liked by 1 person

  97. “Apologies if I triggered you on something. I was rather enjoying having a difference of opinion. It was not mean to be a poke.”

    This took longer than usual. Normally you guys trot this one out earlier.

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  98. I am a straight-line person (the shortest distance between two points). We are all sinners. There is a difference between those that repent and the ones that do not. “To much is given, much is required”. Tullian and Coy were given much, knew what they were doing, willfully practiced their sin, and have yet to show true repentance. Once we call ourselves a “Christian”, like it or not, we ARE all to be judged (evaluated for what we actually, habitually “practice” while in our bodies). “But now I write to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of [Christian] brother, if he is known to be guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater-that is, whose soul is devoted to any object that usurps the place of God-or [is] a person with a foul tongue (railing, abusing, reviling, slandering), or is a drunkard, or a swindler or a robber. [No] you must not so much as eat with such a person. What [business] of mine is it and what right have I to judge outsiders? Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass disciplinary judgment–passing censuring sentence on them [as the facts require]? Because Coy and Tullian took on the ominous title of “Teachers of God’s Word”, they are under an even greater “judgement” (scrutiny/evaluation). Their responsibilities are covered here: “Not many [of you] should become teachers [self-constituted censors and reprovers of others], my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people]. Thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation.” (James 3:1, Amplified) Things are not that complicated. Until there is repentance, we throw the bums out!

    Liked by 1 person

  100. “Lydia, when I belonged to a Church that was Arminian and touting human responsiblity/character/integrity the Pastor got busted for soliciting hookers. The same issue is on both sides of the fence theologically.”

    Arminian is Calvin lite. It is just harder for them to blame the “we are elect worms dualistic theology”. Many have their version of cheap grace.

    This is not about correct doctrine automatically means honest, decent person. It is about doctrine that excuses harm done to others. Lacks personal responsibilty. Even by those who make a living telling people who Jesus is. Strange.

    But thanks for letting me know your views on your personal responsibility.

    Liked by 1 person

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