Culture, Spanking, Bible, Lori Alexander, Abortion, Feminism, Divorce
Do we Have a Culture of Death?
In a recent article, Children Need a Bible and a Belt, blogger Lori Alexander complains about today’s children, our politically correct culture, and our culture of death which she concludes is caused by abortion, and feminism, which she claims leads to the death of marriage. She also mentions the death of hard-working men who used to provide for their families (not sure where she thinks they went). Getting rid of Bibles, she asserts, has led to the death of morality; and parents who fail to discipline their children have contributed “to the death of obedient and self-controlled children.” Woe R us!
She continues:
Children used to be obedient, had self-control and knew right from wrong. Now, they have no moral compass and have no clue what is right from wrong. They need to be taught to be obedient, respect authority and the value of life from conception through old age.
While I do concur that not everyone values life, I disagree with her blanket statement about kids not having a moral compass or knowing right from wrong. The public school students I work with are, for the most part, respectful and obedient.
They need to be taught to work hard and be responsible. They need to be taught God’s ordained role for them as a male or female. They need to be taught to be covenant keepers until “death do they part.”
Covenant keepers? What does she mean? God’s ordained role? I’ve never taught my kids how to be a boy or a girl. What does that mean? My boys and girls played with the same toys from dolls to Legos, bows and arrows, Lincoln Logs, train sets, climbed trees, you name it. My boys probably cook just as much if not more than my girls. I didn’t know this was something that people taught. Maybe I’m a bad mom. Sorry, kids.
She then recommends a song by a couple in which the title refers to a belt and a Bible. Out of respect for this family who is going through their own challenges with cancer, I will not be passing along the link.
But if that was not enough, at the conclusion of the article, Ms. Alexander recommends Mike and Debi Pearl’s well-known “parenting” book, To Train Up a Child.
For further guidance on raising children to be obedient and trained in the ways of the Lord, I highly recommend the Pearl’s book To Train Up a Child. If you’ve read my posts for very long, you know I have no desire to be politically correct. My only desire is to be biblically correct in everything.
This is what the book looked like when I read it years ago (on the left).
I remember families who bought this book by the case and handed them out. If you bought them by the case, they were around $2.00 a book, so they were given out at church, homeschool co-ops, etc. It seems most everybody had this book in its prime, and parents swore by it. It’s interesting because the kids who once were raised by this book are now some of the very same ones who are speaking out on Homeschoolers Anonymous or other online forums about the harsh, abusive, and controlling parenting influenced by the Pearls.
On the right, is the newer updated version.
Lori Alexander gave a link to a newer release of the book which only had two reviews. This link has 4,737 customer reviews and an overall rating of 2.2 stars. Happy reading!
Interestingly, Ms. Alexander claims the world is a culture of death, yet recommends a book that has reportedly contributed to the deaths of at least a couple of children (see recommended links below).
While she claims feminism has caused divorces, I wonder if she has considered that Patriarchy (condoned by both the Pearls and the Alexanders) has caused emotional, physical, and spiritual death of women. We are just now reaping the repercussions of Patriarchy and harsh, abusive parenting by Christian families who followed these teachings. I think many adult children who were raised in this culture would say they experienced emotional and spiritual death, too.
But nope, according to Ms. Alexander, the bad stuff only happens because of the world and its culture, certainly not because of us, Christians. Right!
Related links:
- Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by “To Train Up a Child”
- Quotes from To Train Up a Child
- Child ‘training’ book triggers backlash, BBC News
- Did the Disturbing Philosophy of To Train Up a Child Lead to Hana Williams’ Death?, Slate.com
- Link on Homeschoolers Anonymous related to the tag, “To Train Up a Child”
Spiritual Sounding Board 
She’s taking a page out of John Piper’s teachings too, because he has said explicitly that if this mom won’t make her child behave on an airplane she’s setting him up to be shot by the police later in life.
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Interesting, because IMO the case could be made that because of the modern “mainstream” culture, children are TOO submissive, TOO respectful, and don’t question ENOUGH, therefore they tend to fit themselves into box molds and live unhappy, unfulfilled lives. That’s why I let my daughter play with things that “aren’t toys”, I encourage her to say “yes” AND “no”, and I let her choose her own bedtime and eating times. Somehow she’s survived so far, is the happiest kid ever, and hasn’t murdered anyone in their sleep.
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That’s because Lori has the hots for Debi Pearl.
As for the rest of Lori’s “statistics,” I notice she has no references to back up her assertions. Ergo, all of this is just her opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.
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I think I first learned about Samuel Martin when The Wartburg Watch wrote a post on spanking. I think Samuel Martin commented on it, if I remember correctly. He has done extensive research on this topic. Here is a link to one of his articles. You can search “corporal punishment” or “spanking” on his blog for more articles.
http://samuelmartin.blogspot.com/2012/03/to-train-up-child-contains-methods-of.html
This blog has a link to a free download of Samuel Martin’s book, Thy Rod and Thy Staff They Comfort Me.
http://whynottrainachild.com/2013/06/22/download-martins-book/
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Regarding this part from the OP (original post):
Why would anyone need to be taught “God’s ordained role” for their gender, if being a man or woman was so obvious?
Aa lot of Christians who are into this complementarian stuff seem to feel that it’s obvious God hard wired men to be one way, women another. If that is so, if it’s so obvious and natural, why would people have to be taught “how” to be their gender?
I don’t think the Bible really teaches gender roles per se anyhow. Off the top of my head, I can only recall some Apostle or another in one New Testament book instructing women to behave a certain way, due to being in a certain culture and time period, so as not to make the gospel look bad to the pagans.
However, our culture in 2015 America is not the same as that of ancient Rome or Israel of 2,000 years ago.
I think a case can be made that pressuring women (or men) of today in the United States (or other nations) to adhere to instructions given to suit the Gospel cause for cultures of 2,000 years ago can, and is, harming the church’s witness to the pagan culture today.
(One indication of this is that I have seen more and more articles that state that more and more Christian women are leaving churches, because they feel they and/or their talents are not welcome due to the pro male hierarchy view, and some women are leaving the Christian faith altogether to join other religions, such as Wicca, that they feel are more affirming of women).
The following web page (discussing some new book) sort of addresses some of those points:
A Proposed Model for Egalitarians: An Honest Tension (on Jesus Creed blog)
Even if you believe in Christians teaching other people about gender roles, it continues to burn my biscuits that so many gender comp men lecture women on how they think women should be women.
I was born a woman. I resent someone of the male gender ordering me around, in telling me how he thinks I should dress, speak, act, and if or when or how I should have a career, or date men, or whatever else. I also find it offensive. -Ticks. Me. Off.
Even the women who presume to lecture other women on “how to be women” in those venues are only parroting what John Piper, and other male gender comp leaders, squawk on their blogs and in their books.
And, I’m not clear if the OP means Christians should lecture to other Christians about this stuff, or to Non Christian culture, or to both?
If you think you are going to sway most Non-Christians on their gender roles stuff, I think you are deluded. They only people who will listen at all are naive or easily controlled Christians.
Is it really THAT important for men and women to be taught their so called gender roles –
Or more important for them to be taught that Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sins, that God loves them, and if they accept Christ, they ideally should be emulating Christ and not anyone’s idea of what constitutes a man or a woman?
I do think there is some truth that a lot of what we consider “manly” or “womanly” is socially constructed.
A lot of things the gender comps assume are “godly” ordained roles for men or women are often more based on cultural assumptions that are read into the biblical text than they are based on the text itself.
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From the OP, by Julie Anne
I agree.
I’m not fond of a lot of secular, left wing feminism, but, I don’t believe that it is the monster that a lot of other social conservatives and conservative Christians make it out to be.
I used to think like they do and assigned a lot of blame on to left wing feminists or to feminism itself, but I’ve changed my mind in the last few years.
Jesus warned his followers about focusing on the speck in another person’s eye while neglecting to remove the plank from your own.
The apostle Paul also said it was God’s business to judge those OUTSIDE the church, while Christians should only be concerned about policing those inside the church.
Can anyone here point to an epistle where Paul, Peter, or some other NT writer went on and on and on complaining about how godless and feminist the ancient whom-evers were in their day, culture, and time? No? That’s because they did not.
They spent more time teaching basic theology, encouraging Christians to help each other, encouraging Christians to live for God, and helping people around them in practical ways.
Paul, Peter, and the other NT writers were not consumed and fixated with beating up on the secular culture of their day and blaming it for everything wrong in and out of the church.
Complaining about secular culture and what “the pagans” are doing isn’t going to really change anything or help anyone at the end of the day. Jesus taught that sin comes from within a person’s heart, not from feminism or from secular culture.
And, though I disagree with large portions of secular feminism, I do believe they are right about some things. Sexism still does exist around the world, and secular feminists are fighting it, they have been fighting it, and trying to help women – and they seem to be doing so more often than many Christians I see, which I think makes Christianity look shameful.
Your gender comp and patriarchal Christians, rather than liberating women, want to keep stuffing them into a box and punishing them.
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I am sorry, I don’t mean to hog the comment box here (please, don’t let me scare a newbie off from posting, if you are new here!). Every time I read back over the OP, I see a new thing to comment on that I didn’t notice before.
From the OP:
Having a Bible doesn’t mean a person is going to necessarily read it.
Further, having a Bible and reading it does not necessarily mean a person is going to interpret it correctly -OR- live out what it says.
There is actually a verse in the NT that acknowledges this phenomenon. There is some NT verse that tells Christians to put the letter down (the Bible) and go do what it says.
If I remember correctly, Jesus also says it’s not enough just to listen to him (read his words), but to put into practice what he taught.
Look at all the Christians who do read a Bible or go to church every week, yet they violate or ignore the very teachings of that book.
You have Christians, even some preachers, who are having affairs or who are financially scamming people or spiritually abusing in churches.
You have blockheaded Christians who wrongly interpret the Bible to think it says an abused woman can never divorce the abusive husband, but must stay trapped in a harmful marriage and submit to the abuser even more. You have Christians who incorrectly counsel depressed persons to stay off medications, avoid actual (secular) psychologists and just read the Bible more.
Not to be a broken record, but holy cow, when I could have used some of my Christian extended family or people at church to comfort and encourage me and to weep with me (“weep with those who weep”) after my mother died, they instead acted like I had cooties and wanted nothing to do with me.
They couldn’t be bothered to be there for me in my time of need. And these are Bible reading, church going Christians!
Having a Bible and/or reading it does not guarantee the one who is reading it or keeping it on a book shelf is going to actually DO what it says.
The Duggar family. I mean really, who is more churchie and Bible readie than those Duggar people, and yet, their son is a pervert and a pr0n addict who touched his own sisters, and who cheated on his wife with a stripper or two, please.
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Well at least Mrs. Wackjob isn’t advocating wife spanking. I’m kind of sort of relieved. When ever I see her name I take a deep breath and know it’s going to be something off the wall.
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The pedophile in my family was a missionary and Bible translator. You can’t get much closer to the Bible than that. Some morals, eh?
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I have to say I’m really encouraged at all the negative reviews and 2.2 overall rating for To Train Up a Child on Amazon. How long until we never see or hear of it again….
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I decided just to suck it up and not say anything the last time the belt photo showed up, but this time I’ve gotta say that to a specific kind of abuse survivor, that picture is really, really upsetting.
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Thank you for letting me know, Anonymous. I’m sorry it upset you. It has been removed.
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What immediately concerns me is the anonymous commenter on Lori’s blog thread with the eight kids who are largely out of control. Her description of their behavior is a nightmare, and I don’t wonder that they have already been investigated by DHS. It sounds like she is simply overwhelmed with the number of kids, the homeschooling, plus the inability to keep up with the chores, and her husband may not be doing much to help. The ages go from 12 down to 20 months, and I pray they don’t have any more. If she is looking only to people like Lori Alexander for advice, I’m not too optimistic.
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Lori states:
“For further guidance on raising children to be obedient and trained in the ways of the Lord, I highly recommend the Pearl’s book To Train Up a Child. If you’ve read my posts for very long, you know I have no desire to be politically correct. My only desire is to be biblically correct in everything.”
People may want to use spanking as a parenting method 😦 BUT you can’t call it “biblical”.
As BTDT has said, Samuel Martin’s book shows how the few Proverb scriptures used to back up “smacking” (as he puts it) as biblical are entirely taken out of context and misused.
There are many other resources that promote gentle parenting methods. Here’s one but there are lots out there:
http://www.littleheartsbooks.com/
And the website: http://whynottrainachild.com/
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Julie Anne,
Please remove me from your email list immediately. Although I agree with some of your ideas, comments and posts…..I feel that overall you and many of your followers fall far short of your slogan or mission statement Out of our wounds flow compassion, understanding, & grace. May we all be “wounded healers” who do no harm. with your sharp and cutting sarcasm and sometimes less-than-loving, talk. These attitudes and agenda’s aren’t helping me to understand and be more compassionate but in stead angering me toward you and some of your followers so I feel it best to just not be involved and a reader. Your blog sort of reminds me of the liberal left in this country who scream for tolerance and kindness yet are some of the most intolerant people toward Christians and anything righteous and holy imaginable. Some of your material is helpful and sin must be exposed and people must be warned and held to account but not in the way it is discussed and portrayed on your blog. Sorry, I just felt like I needed to let you know rather than just hit the “unsubscribe” button. My bible tells me to love one another and love is not rude, sarcastic or intolerable and I see a lot of that on your blog. Love in Christ,
Ron
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From Lori’s lament:
Sounds like she’s channelling the grown-ups from “Bye Bye Birdie”. I half expect her to sing something like:
♪ Why can’t they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What’s the matter with kids today? ♪
Pining for the “good ol’ days”, Lori? You might want to double-check Ecclesiastes 7:10.
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Monique,
Can’t happen soon enough for me.
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I left this comment on her blog. We’ll see if she lets it go up and stay there for her other readers:
We never spanked our son and daughter nor used any other corporal punishment. Time-out and loss of privilege were as strong as it got. They both grew up polite and caring about the people around them. Now they are in their 20s. Along the way they have been on and led teams of missionaries to developing nations: over a dozen trips ranging from a week to a year between the two of them.
Parenting isn’t easy. I know ours wasn’t anyway. But we raised two of the best people I know. God is faithful to carry out his work in our lives and in our family, and it didn’t take a single swat on the behind to make it so. In fact, I think it’s harder to do it our way than to use physical punishment. but it is so much better in the long run. That’s how it is with things that really matter. I don’t want to take the easy way, and would rather put in the hard work of not using corporal punishment.
Our children are worth the effort.
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The Party Can Do No Wrong.
Ees Party Line, Comrades.
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“Children used to be obedient, had self-control and knew right from wrong. Now, they have no moral compass and have no clue what is right from wrong. They need to be taught to be obedient, respect authority and the value of life from conception through old age.”
This seems to be conflating two different ideas into one:
“Children were obedient (controlled by another) [and] had self-control.”
“Children have no moral compass no clue what is right … they need to be taught to be obedient [and] respect authority.” The reason children need to respect authority is because they do not know right and wrong for themselves, and someone should lead them. The more children actually learn right from wrong, the less they need to blindly obey authority, which is as likely to be wrong as right.
“They need to be taught to be obedient, respect authority and the value of life from conception through old age.” Obedient authority respecters are, in many cases exactly the people who do not value life – they value orders. “I was only following orders” was the excuse of many a Nazi in trails after the war. And hierarchy respecters do not value life from conception unto old age – they value the hierarchy leaders while the children, women and even men with lower-status jobs are not valued.
(Do people who want women to stay at home and obey men, who speak up in favour of wife beating like Lori Alexander does, actually value the lives of women? Can a promoter of “To train up a child say she values the lives of children?)
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One of the great divides in this country is between people who give obedience to authority the highest priority and those of us who don’t. I want to know if it is legitimate authority, whether I am being asked to follow genuine agreed upon rules for the common good rather than someone’s personal whim. I want to know if what I am being asked to do is moral or immoral, legal or illegal).
I am very concerned about police beatings and shootings. Even where we see actual video of police shooting unarmed people who are being compliant, people will respond to these news stories by saying that if the person would just have DONE WHAT THEY WERE told instead of fleeing or mouthing off or whatever got the officer ticked off, it would never have happened. I thought that virtually everyone would be upset that the police shot that six year old boy because his father was fleeing a warrant, got trapped in a dead end, and backed up and hit a police car trying to get away. But no, quite a number of people posted that the police were only doing their job and it was the father’s fault. I guess because disobedient people deserve to be summarily executed and if a child is killed, oh well that is collateral damage and can’t be helped.
I don’t understand people like this and especially not Christians who think this way.
I am feeling really really upset these days.
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So, let me get this right. Men and women are inherently different by design … but we have to “teach” them how to be men and women. *rolling my eyes*
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Amen Tim. A job well done!
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JA, I am scratching my head at Ron’s iron-fist-in-velvet-glove attack comment. Yes, when I at first began reading survivor support blogs, out of desperation at my own spiritual deadness — let’s just say the hyper-calvinism of our former church was a Spirit-quenching environment — I was sometimes dismayed at the tone of some of the commenters, and even some of the blog posts.
As I kept reading, over the months, and finding the courage to finally walk away from destructive Pharisaical theology, I realized how much of the acid tone came from a place of deep pain, healing, anger, and resolution to do something to help other sufferers. Sometimes I find myself a little sharp in a comment, usually on a day when I’ve struggled with the fallout from our shattered faith and family. (I don’t know if our teens will ever darken the door of a church again… they seem to be getting further from believing that Christ and the Bible are relevant and true, some days. And yet they are more decent, more loving, more caring, and more willing to extend grace and understanding to others than the people in the old church we left behind, with their “correct” theology and “perfect” families.)
It appears to me that “Love-in-Christ” Ron (I am not mocking him by writing that, as he might suppose, but simply contrasting his harsh rebuke with the christianese love language he uses to couch it) has not suffered the same kind of abuse. He is richly blessed thereby, but also sorely lacking in 2 Cor. 1:4 empathy.
I know I looked with wonder on a young woman, the oldest child from an upstanding homeschool family in our community, who’d walked away and was now a sometimes-strident atheist. This was back before I’d started to question patriarchy, and I simply did not have the capacity to empathize with her, much as I was troubled by her pain and offered her what comfort I could, just by sitting with her and listening to her, letting her talk without trying to “correct” her or contradict her.
Yes, I am sometimes dismayed at the sting of sarcasm. But I understand the frustration that underlies it, as well as the tears being wept for current victims, and the desire to save potential victims from being victimized by pious false shepherds and well-meaning followers.
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feminism, which she claims leads to the death of marriage
I believe I’ve seen statistics that the highest divorce rate is found among complementarian couples.
The majority of our own children, who grew up watching biblical complementarianism practiced to the best of our ability, don’t believe in marriage at all.
Ironic.
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Thank you for linking to the reviews of TTUAC on Amazon. I clicked and skimmed a few, and then settled on this one, and read more thoroughly. What struck me was the reviewer said they had never been abused, and yet… they get it. (Unlike the commenter above, whose comment I already addressed.) Very well-thought-out write-up.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2SHL0PTJJQUEH/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0038KA6GC#R2SHL0PTJJQUEH
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Marsha–when I would see the bumper sticker “question authority” I would do a mental fist bump and say “YES!” So important to know what the authority stood for!
On another thread re: the tragic beating death of Lucas Leonard by his parents and others, someone mentioned the book by Philip Greven “Spare the Child” which I then ordered from Amazon. I am currently reading it and am most struck by the consequences of corporal punishment on the recipients. Greven researches historical ducuments that record the depression and agonized struggles of famous and “revered” (by some) Puritan theologians. I am just starting to get my mind around the understanding that some of the most tortured and convoluted thinking we see expressed by the YRR and similar organizations (like CREC) has some strong roots in the childhood trauma of severe discipline. J B Philips wrote a small but important book “Your God is too Small” which points out that our concepts of God–no matter how “biblically” sourced– are strongly influenced by our early interactions with our parents. Harsh parenting frequently results in the belief in a harsh god(notice the lower case). I am very impressed about the long term responsibility of parenting–and also struck by each individual’s responsibility to strive for (with the power of the Holy Spirit) a continuing understanding of the character of God. Because that is what we will be living out and testifying about in our lives. I speak as a humble seeker and not an enlightened expert. These are just some of my thoughts along the way so far. “Thinking”(she taps her head)”always thinking!!”
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refugee,
I sent Ron a personal note (he also sent me the same e-mail). I alluded to the same things you wrote about in your comment. You bet there is going to be strong language. Sometimes this is the place where people are finally coming to the conclusion that what they experienced was in fact abuse. Some have lost their children, their spouses, many, many years, jobs, etc. For someone who hasn’t experienced this kind of pain, they won’t get it. But I will not be the one to shut down a voice that is speaking from pain. I get it. It’s an important part of the grieving process. Many Christians are just plain uncomfortable with what they call “negative” emotions. God made our emotions, anger, sadness, etc. I think He wanted us to have them so we could express them.
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Refugee, this reminds me a little of a quotation I came across in a fantasy card game that I like. (Explaining its background will take a bit of time, so bear with me. Also, please forgive me if it sounds as though I’m comparing your suffering to something from a silly game. I don’t mean to minimize anyone’s pain, and I hope someone finds this illustration helpful.)
One of the worlds explored in this game is called Zendikar. It’s a massive world, and for centuries has been known to its inhabitants as a hostile and wildly unpredictable place. They suffer from violent earthquakes and a mobile churning force dubbed “the Roil”, which alters landscapes and sometimes obliterates entire communities. It has long been believed that Zendikar hates its own people, and is constantly trying to destroy them.
Recently, though, the natives of Zendikar have discovered that, longer ago than any can remember, their world was used to imprison a trio of horrifically powerful otherworldly beings. Ever since, these monsters have been threatening to escape and devour the entire world, and phenomena like the Roil are the result of Zendikar’s constant struggle to deal with them and keep them contained. The situation is summed up by this quotation from one of the world’s inhabitants:
“I was wrong. Zendikar isn’t after me. It isn’t after any of us. It’s not evil or vengeful. It’s magnificent . . . but it’s in pain.”
I think this bears some similarity to the harsh language shown by some of the commenters here and on other blogs. For many of them, it’s not driven by hatred or revenge, but by the pain born of trauma and justice denied. And, as Julie Anne said, why would God give us emotions if He didn’t want us to express them? The Psalms are chock-full of raw and unvarnished “negative” emotion, and this is how the Israelites expressed themselves towards God. If He (presumably) wasn’t offended, why should we be?
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P.S. Here’s the source for that quotation, if anyone’s interested: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398518
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BTW – Thank you all for showing grace and making it safe here. This is a unique and very special place.
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refugee,
You are correct about the very high divorce rate among Comps. Barna did a study about divorce rates and found that the Southern Baptists (SBC) espousing comps had THE HIGHEST divorce rate, higher than even atheist couples.
Conservative Baptist pastor Wade Burleson (Enid, OK; he’s the pastor on Sundays at The Wartburg Watch for E-Church), is a fair-minded man who says that Comp teaching is fairly new and it’s un-Biblical and destructive. Wade noted that as the SBC has spread the Comp teaching in their churches the divorce rate has gotten incredibly high. http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html
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is that what Christ meant when he said “suffer the little children to come to me”? was their a belt beneath his robes? but I do suppose this is what is meant by “this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you”. I can tell you this for sure….all the nuns ever beat out of me was my faith in a god that answers prayers. no answer= no god.. oh well. I’m not interested in a loving god that is into beating children and eternal punishment. that is the antithesis of love. no thanks.
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how fearful and full of rage christians are. why is that? and why must they take that out on children and women?
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@nowamfoundatlast,
I think violence is handed down through the generations. If you were raised with violence, you may think it’s acceptable. Obviously, these people were raised with it. So they look to the Bible to justify carrying on their own violence. They can’t conceive that maybe, just maybe it’s wrong.
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Refugee,
Thanks for that above link to the Amazon review comment re: TTUAC. Love the way she explains the problems with this “method”.
For example where she states:
“Instead of looking at what children actually can think and know and understand at a given age, the Pearls project cunning intelligence and evil motives. They look at a baby too young to recognize himself in the mirror, and see a master manipulator who cries not because he’s uncomfortable or lonely or can’t sleep, but because he wants to get the better of his parents. They look at a tiny toddler who can’t yet even understand that different people know different things, and they think that the child is using her mother’s fear of embarrassment to manipulate her into a hug.”
Anyway, passing it on to those who still tout TTUAC or any of that kind of “child training” or anyone who’ll reconsider that whole mindset
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Ron- Don’t punctuate that sort of self-absorbed, sanctimonious, passive-aggressive cultspeak with “Love in Christ”. In my personal opinion it has little to nothing to do with either love or Christ.
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@Velour:
I would like to know which of the couple initiates the divorce.
I suspect the majority are filed by the wife.
In the words of the prophet Tompall Glazer:
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@Retha:
A little background about “Ich habe nur meine Befehle ausgefert”:
Because in German bureaucratic tradition up to 1945, that WAS a valid defense. In German bureaucratic tradition, the one giving the orders is responsible — as long as the one following orders has it in writing and can produce the evidence. (Though since the one giving the orders never had to see the unpleasant results — only written reports — it was easy to drift into “Two bodies, one Sociopath”.) In Germany, you CYAed by recording and archiving EVERYTHING. That’s why there was so much hard evidence and records for the Nuremberg trials to sort through.
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HUG, that’s also what allowed the judiciary to carry out Nazi Party policy in the guise of applying the law: When Nazis Ran The Courts.
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And the same concept leads us to last days; where HIS sacrifice of pain in Blood is not enough. Failure of vile liberals (who think they are smarter than GOD) in Isaiah 32, who are never commanded to Love as CHRIST and have no concept of such. Or maybe they are just addicts, addicted to the cause, any cause; waiting for that next worldly fix. Just like those blocking the interstate to celebrate the execution of a cop in Texas; not toooo long ago.
2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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“Vile liberals”?
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Isaiah 32:
5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.
6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.
8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.
9 Rise up, ye women that are at ease; hear my voice, ye careless daughters; give ear unto my speech.
10 Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come.
That is the way HE stated it. Should we not Love others enough to show the path to HIM? Do we abuse our children and not teach them; leaving others to clean up the mess? All of the studies find that a well disciplined, Loving and structured environment raises happier, healthier, more intelligent and charitable children; the BIBLE tells us the same. Do you have a better plan?
We seem to listen to your voice much; what do you have to offer? Are you provided great knowledge and wisdom by HIM; because HE can count on you to help? Things would be much easier if we didn’t Love you; the same goes for our children and HIS children.
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@Charity
Could you give some New Testament scriptures where Christians are instructed to hit their children?
The Old Testament tells us we should stone disobedient children, abstain from unclean foods, not to wear clothing made of mixed material, that we may sell our daughters as servants, that those who work on the Sabbath should be put to death, not to touch the skin of a dead pig (football), etc. Are you as adamant about following all of these scriptures as well, or do you pick and choose which ones to follow?
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Hebrews 12:
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Ephesians 6:4 “And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.”
Command, reason and set limits; just like HE grows us.
CHRIST said in the Sermon on the Mount that not one tittle or jot shall pass until Heaven and earth does pass (Matthew 5). What christ do you preach; we preach the CHRIST that sacrificed in pain and Blood (2 Corinthians 11). We are all obligated to speak, exhort and rebuke those outside of such bounds. We know what happens to those that add or take away from the Word. Either we do it in Love or HE will; in all cases.
CHRIST came to save the world and bring truth; not to justify foolish individual ideologies of heart (Romans 1:21 ref to Proverbs 22:15). Did you wish to interfere in HIS plan. We see the failures of those like you attempting such; they are blatantly obvious. What do you have to offer above what HE can offer? Can you do or offer anything (without HIM)?
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@Charity
Then I pray for your sake that you have no poly/cotton clothing in your closet or ham in your fridge lest you be an abomination to the Lord.
If you choose to define chastise as corporal punishment instead of severe criticism; a rebuke or strong reprimand then you have to read the Hebrews 12 scriptures as God spanking adults so “that we might be partakers of his holiness.” Some pastors have actually done that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11875172/Married-church-minister-ran-bottom-spanking-cult.html
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According to Charity, “The vile person shall be no more called liberal.” Is. 35:5a
Well, those who pervert Scripture to justify the abuse of children can take this much comfort: They do not have to worry about being called liberal. It is possible for some to be both vile and conservative, but none can be both vile and liberal.
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It’s important to know that the blogger in the OP that Charity is defending poked a hole in her diaphragm so that she would get pregnant and be allowed to stay home with her kids. #conniving
http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2011/11/when-husbands-say-no.html?m=1
(Thanks to Deana Holmes for pointing the above out on Twitter.)
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Abuse is also the lack of Love; it goes both ways. The rebuke and strong reprimand was for those outside of scripture. Evil is everywhere, it does not justify means or end; either way. Are your actions any different than that of the pastor? Hopefully the State (UK) will be better prepared and the retrial might prove something (my hope); yet you condemn without trial.
You speak of evil as justification? Then speak of sanctification as part of evil?
As others speak of proven failures (if you open your eyes and look around) and proven successes:
http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Building_Character_Web.pdf?1257752612
Sin is the result in lack of wisdom and has nothing to do with teaching wisdom to avoid sin. Otherwise teaching wisdom in any form would be a sin.
The vile liberal is an armchair worrier, unable to understand or do; yet wishes voice. GOD would never call upon or instill wisdom in such. GOD places those in authority with responsibilities in HIS calling; to protect us. That is why the many Citizens of similar Countries are afraid to walk the streets and pleading for help with their Juvenal delinquency issues. The results of sin impact innocent others; outside such liberal viewpoint.
Both conservatives and liberals can be evil; or for HIM. If you have problems with HIS classifications, statements or Words; you will have to take that up with HIM. We are only commanded to speak, exhort and rebuke within all authority, those outside Sound Doctrine. Did you not wish us to do as HE commands?
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@Charity
From your screen name, I take it you are a woman. If you are, how do you justify commenting here, where there are so many men? Paul said he does not permit a woman to teach a man. Would I not be correct in thinking that the stream of the faith in which you walk believes that Paul’s instruction is as binding today as it was in the 1st century?
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Since I have thus far managed to not spank or strike an adult I can answer in the affirmative. I do not believe in sin-leveling. Telling a lie is not on par with sexually abusing a child.
So are you saying that spankings are for the sons of the “Father of spirits?” You claim that Hebrews 12:8-11 is scriptural backing for spanking children. If you define “chastise” as spanking, then it seems the author is condoning spanking of adults since these scriptures are all about how “God is treating you as his children.”
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Always feel the need to point out that I am a liberal and feminist. I didn’t spank my daughter and she doesn’t spank my grandsons and all three of them are kind, well-behaved people. You have to be a role model and beating a child is modeling violence.
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Neither did we, Marsha. People comment all the time how much they like and admire our 25 year old son and 23 year old daughter. Raising them without spanking – I wonder how they ever survived to such positive and constructive adulthood.
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Do you think that GOD may have had a hand in and deserves a little praise in helping to raise your families? How about the HIS Sacrifice; was that not enough for you on this eve set aside for remembrance? How about thanks for the multitudes in conviction that are commanded to Love as CHRIST and sacrificed along the way; for you to even be here? How about the many placed in authority over you, do you appreciate them; you are commanded such. Maybe your families turned out the way they did in spite of you?
Did you save them (oh HE does that)? Should we bow down following and praising you? Are you a stumbling block to others? Are you able to give up the world and yourselves and follow HIM? Questions to think about.
In alternate: do you raise fields of pastors and teach others to do the same? Do you rebuke failures in such (Titus 2). Are you part of the problem or the solution? Are you addicted to the endorphin’s of the cause; any cause but HIS? Are you an addict like those blocking the interstate in Texas to celebrate the execution of those placed here to protect us; not tooooo long ago? Just placing the picture into perspective.
I am male, but why would you discriminate and label the concept of charity as female? Why do you discriminate against the parental and religious rights of others to their conviction and to raise their children to start with? Are you smarter than the multitudes in conviction; or just unable to tie your own shoe?
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I feel like I’ve missed something.
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@Charity
You have failed to answer the question of New Testament scriptural basis to hit children, yet you feel entitled to criticize our position. You came on this thread to challenge our point of view. yet cannot answer when you are challenged except to whine about being abused.
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🙂 Merry Christmas, JA!
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Thank you, BTDT! Merry Christmas to you and your sweet family. I’m forcing myself to relax, got a fire going, Christmas music playing, enjoying the family, and knitting. Bliss!
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I love a good fire. Christmas Eve tamales are a tradition in Texas. It’s a tradition we enjoy keeping.
One of these days I’ll have to dust off my knitting needles. My grandmother taught me how to knit. It’s very relaxing and rewarding.
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Tamales sound wonderful! Yum.
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Tamales are big with my wife’s family in San Diego at Christmas too. Delicious!
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Nah, you’re fine, Julie Anne. Charity’s just babbling. He reads like L. Ron Hubbard, though with more references to the Bible. Gourmet word salad.
He never specifies to whom he’s responding, leaving us to guess, and that makes it even harder to follow him. I suppose standard net etiquette isn’t so important to him, since God never mentions it. 🙂
And he’s speaking in some kinda code, too. He keeps using phrases like “multitudes in conviction”, like we’re supposed to know what that means. I wonder: if we don’t, does that mean we’re (gasp) not real Christians?
I suspect he’s doing it on purpose. Of course, it’s possible that he’s just had too much eggnog. 😉
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We are back to 2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
If you take the time to read it; it says it all. You are unable to even reverence HIM in thanks for sending HIS SON as a Sacrifice for us; on the eve of Christmas.
There are no excuses; Romans 1 removes them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
In the message to the Churches, we are not allowed to even suffer such. The multitudes in conviction have existed for millennia. GOD Plan did not start or stop just for you; it is for all and existed forever. You are not the greatest thing since sliced bread. You offer nothing, and in your current state even lack potential. You either serve HIM or not; you are part of the Body or not. The choices are simple, but they belong to you. We may Love and want the best for you; but that is all we can do. The rest is up to HIM; pray to HIM.
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You are absolute proof of the resultant failures of the concepts you attempt to justify in this article.
If you wish to approach against Sound Doctrine; then prove something. Interpretation is not left to you; nor do individual ideologies or following your heart offer anything.
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Charity… Romans 2:1. ‘Therefore…’
What follows is Paul’s conclusion. Read it. It’s all there.
Pulling verses from Romans 1 without keeping it in the context which is GROSS HYPOCRISY, is wrong.
Look at the point Paul was really making by studying Romans 2 on.
Religious people seem to love Romans 1 yet miss the whole point of what Paul is saying which is from ‘therefore…’ In chapter 2:1.
(Just saying)
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Oh boy, Charity, when you come here throwing verses at people in a way that puffs you up and judges others, you are behaving just like some of our bully and abusive church leaders. If you are going to comment here, remember that we are all of the priesthood of believers (those who claim Him). You are no better than any one of us, so please show some courtesy and humility in your responses. This is your official warning.
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Good point.
The individual requirements are built and authorities placed throughout Romans.
Romans 2:1 “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”
This leads into the individual requirements within the Body through to
Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
The requirements of the Body.
Romans 14:
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
Do we not Love both those that stumble and the stumbling blocks enough to correct such? Are we not back to the same concepts and failures of this article? Many are commanded to Love as CHRIST, but have no idea what that means; as many are never commanded, but want to create the definition? Is the failure of having Love for no one not the absolute hypocrisy here? Are there excuses if we are commanded to rebuke, but fail or ignore to do so?
Is the absolute and final result not the great falling away? When the pain and agony of HIS Flesh and Blood sacrifice is no longer enough and we want more?
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But Julie Ann; are you not the bully here? Are you not the one that discriminates, intimidates, harasses and threatens others? Those that Love you enough to try to pull your Soul out of the depths?
Maybe you are just a little addicted to the cause? Is the intent to heal through Faith; or just to stir the pot, making those abused relive the situation over and over again? Maybe you just seek revenge and rebellion? Who do you want revenge from and seek rebellion against; HIM?
I will go even farther and say that I am no better and have no where near the potential in this area that you do. The question would be do you wish to focus on building up or tearing down? In the priesthood, if this is your calling, I hope you would make the right decision to that question and hope that you would understand the callings (and rights) of others. We Love you and need all the help we can get.
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Charity.
You posted Hebrews 12:8.
It reads:
“But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons”.
The Greek ‘paideia’ is translated as chastisement in Hebrews 12:8.
Blue Letter Bible tells us that:
“The KJV translates Strongs G3809 in the following manner: chastening (3x), nurture (1x), instruction (1x), chastisement (1x)”.
The same word is translated as nurture?;
and instruction?
REALLY!
Ephesians 6:4 (same word for chastisement is translated here as NURTURE)
For you:
“And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture G3809 and admonition of the Lord”.
I would go as far as to say that hitting your children would be the first part of the verse, rather than the second.
When I read the word nurture, the nursing mother in me (I have a 4 month old baby) tells me that nurturing means to protect. In this context it’s to instruct them in the way of the Lord. To do such by striking them with a ‘rod’ would probably provoke them to wrath (becoming aggressive to others).
NEXT.
instruction.
2 Timothy 3:18 features this word paideia.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction G3809 in righteousness”:
“for belting small children in righteousness?”
“for spanking the disobedient wife in righteousness?”
nah.
Me thinketh the “I am taking away your toys until you can learn to behave” worketh best.
There is a very good reason why I would utter, “Lord help me please” after spanking my kids.
It’s because my conscience told me it was very wrong.
and/or the very HS Himself.
Thank you Lord. (chief of sinners oh you better believe it)
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@Charity
And I’m assuming that would be you? That’s pretty arrogant.
@lifewithporpoise
If Charity had ever bothered to engage with me on the scriptures he claims validate spanking, paideia was going to be my next point. That’s the Greek word translated as “chastise” or “discipline.” This Greek concept has nothing at all to do with spanking, but more like the discipline of athletic training or training of the mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paideia
But Charity, who obviously has never looked into any of this, is going to set us all straight with his version of the Truth™.
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Strongs G3809 παιδεία paideía, pahee-di’-ah; from G3811; tutorage, i.e. education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction:—chastening, chastisement, instruction, nurture.
(from the Blue Letter BIBLE).
Do you always quote the reference; without quoting the reference? Is your cause worthy to abuse the referenced works of others in such?
I would caution following ones heart: Romans 1:21 “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” ref Proverbs 22:15 “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.” ref Proverbs 28:6 “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.” ref Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
We are all sinners; but HE is always there to help. You and your little one are in our prayers (and hearts).
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Paideia has 3 forms each used 2 times in the BIBLE.
παιδείᾳ
παιδείαν
παιδείας
These three forms are all used in Hebrews 12:5-11 (and one twice).
Maybe within your great theological wisdom you could enlighten us on the use of each? Since you wish approach with your individual ideologies; requiring such proof anyway?
Why are others always left to clean up the messes and sweep the floor; while the contention is the issue has never been looked into? While others dig the hole deeper and make such contentions? We are unable to teach now and all are beginning to fear; maybe you could offer suggestions to help in this? Maybe you could offer suggestions into correcting the problems you create?
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Hey, “Charity”.
As I’ve said to others who’ve accused her of this: And what colour is the sky in your world?
She hasn’t threatened or intimidated anyone here, least of all you. She’s only warned you to act civilly and start respecting other commenters. Julie Anne is the hostess of this blog, and she sets the rules. You seem to have trouble remembering that you’re a guest.
There’s nothing wrong with JA’s soul, Charity. She (like many here) just don’t agree with your interpretation of Scripture. Or Lori Alexander’s.
Sheesh. You sound like Ahab, accusing Elijah of being a troublemaker. JA is no Elijah, but if you’ve read anything from other commenters, you’ll see that she isn’t one rubbing salt into the wounds of those who’ve survived abuse.
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Sure. They are all translated discipline.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/12.htm
The Greek understanding of the word is more akin to what we call education.
But, if you still insist it means spanking, the scriptures say God paideuei his sons. If you consider yourself a son of God, then I invite you to bend over and take one for the team.
Now I’m going to watch my wonderful, unspanked children open their presents. Later. ❤
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My theological wisdom tells me that the latter are probably the same Greek word but in plural form.
That would be when God literally smacks us with the very long rod in one sitting. (When we have been really really bad).
Or, how he teaches us continually and disciplines us through our lives.
he can do this in any fashion he wishes.
If he chose to do it from heaven with a physical stick, i would probably die though…
From laughter.
Or from the actual spanking.
(Not like that’s happened before)
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@lifewithporpoise
Mine too. They’re the same word in different tense.
I don’t know about you, but my former “church” used to proofread the Bible to death. They presented so many ideas to us that sounded so Biblical™ because it had scriptures to “back it up.” You can almost make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. For instance: “When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel.” Judges 19:29: “Jesus told him, ‘Go and do likewise.'” Luke 10:37. That’s a terrible exaggeration, of course, but one could claim it’s the word of God. Except it’s not.
There are so many things I accepted before simply because someone claiming Biblical authority said so. When I take a closer look at the scriptures they used to back up their position it doesn’t say what they said it does. I feel lied to and manipulated.
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^^^That should read “proof-texted the Bible”
I’m going to go wash dishes now.
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“Paideia has 3 forms each used 2 times in the BIBLE.
παιδείᾳ
παιδείαν
παιδείας”
Actually, the noun paideia/παιδείᾳ has eight forms, four in the singular and four in the plural. The parsing for the three forms with which the effeminately named Charity (illogically) challenges us is:
Παιδεία, nominative singular feminine
Παιδείαν, accusative singular feminine
Παιδείας, genitive singular feminine
So, now that I have demonstrated that my knowledge of Greek is superior to Charity’s, I will also claim authority to pass judgment on him. But I won’t.
Merry Christmas all! (You too Charity.)
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BTDT, I often read my bible whilst my better half is doing something like washing dishes (how egalitarian of him) muhaha and I’ll find some passage often misused and we have a good laugh about it once we can see what it’s REALLY saying. Takes time out of the ‘system’, to see clearly.
Interestingly, since we left the system we have had more deep conversations about Jesus with unbelievers than we did when we were in it. Funny that. They think it’s odd we love God and read the bible but don’t get caught up with religion.
Praise God for that. ‘Wanna come to my church?’.
Nah.
‘Wanna come to the Lord?’
Yes please 😊
Gary W.
I imagine you to be like the Christian Dad/Grandfather I wish I had. Knowledgable and witty. Your posts make me laugh often. (Assuming you are not the same age as me) hahaha.
Carry on soldiers!
Merry Christmas Charity. 😊
We will be known by our…
love, gentleness, kindness, spanking?
X
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Discrimination is to take possession or forced ownership of something that belongs to another without claim (in the US). I will note that Japan holds the same concept of definition.
Parents of both (and most) Countries hold the right to raise their children, including within religion; now with responsibility and liabilities within failure of such.
With that stated and within equal countenance of such discrimination shown:
No one owns the internet or holds privilege to assign ownership.
The associated Countries set the rules; not individuals.
Many fail to understand the concepts of discrimination; but wish voice; yet never provided or fought for such voice.
Many demand privilege to discriminate against those that did fight.
Many plead privilege to interfere within families and the rights to raise their kids.
Within Religion:
Many here claim some sort of privilege to interfere with the Body; without experience, knowledge, wisdom, conviction, command or attachment within such.
Many claim privilege to justify constant or status of Soul.
Many claim right of individual interpretation.
Many claim privilege to follow their heart.
Many claim right of pooling in like ideologies; discriminating against all.
I will attempt to take time to teach; but with the storms, flooding and other emergencies, time is limited (and others not digging their own hole are much more important).
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Gary, I will spend a few minutes of focus.
The intent was for someone to explain the forms of paideia by noun, adjective intensity and use of definition; not just the singular or plural groupings in such.
“So, now that I have demonstrated that my knowledge of Greek is superior to Charity’s, I will also claim authority to pass judgment on him. But I won’t.”
What should I say; thank you for not taking such privilege and judging my Soul?
You assume I was female above and plead within conviction that I should not post. Then you see others within class post and not assume such same plea. Does this not both fail Love and discriminate at the same instant?
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Y’know, Charity, it would help your case a great deal if you would just stop babbling. Really, you’re not making any sense at all.
Honest question: Is English your first language? At times, it’s very, very difficult to tell.
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For example:
What does this even mean, Charity? Are there actual storms and flooding going on where you live? Or are you speaking metaphorically?
And what exactly do you mean by “others not digging their own hole”? How are they “much more important”?
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@Charity
You are judged by your own words, since nobody here sought you out. Instead you came here to tell us how wrong we are. It is you who are interfering “within families and the rights to raise their kids.” Why do you do that? Oh, right. Because you think you have something “to teach” us. Your arguments are more condescending than cogent.
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@SKiJ
It almost sounds like a bot.
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Charity, you cannot seem to let go of the fact that we all thought you were female, like it had some deep meaning. It doesn’t. Charity has traditionally been a female name. So has Hope and Faith. That’s all. I have never met or heard of any males named Charity in the real world.
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Charity, you seem to miss the concept of irony. Gary is perfectly happy to discuss issues with women here. What he was saying is that in the complementarian religious world to which Lori Alexander belongs (and it sounds like you belong), women are told they may not instruct men. That is not what the regular commentators nor our hostess believe.
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Charity, In this country, parents may raise children within religious traditions with two important qualifications: they may not break the law and children have rights as well.
There are several parents doing long prison terms for following the guidelines of that awful book, To Train up a Child. They were convicted of abuse and murder, all done in the name of their religion.
Also, parents may want to use prayer to treat a seriously ill child but a child or doctors or the state can use the courts to order medical treatment for the child. A child has the right to receive medical treatment as well as not to be abused or neglected.
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Charity, you seem to think that people who are involved in causes aren’t Christian. Why is that? I donate to animal shelters, homeless shelters, children abroad in poverty, and I have volunteered with women offenders. I have served on the boards of a justice center and a boys’ home. I have a website to help people suffering from an incurable disease. I am politically active for related causes (equality, justice, helping the needy). Didn’t Jesus tell us that when we have helped those in need, they have helped Him?
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To tell the truth, my first impulse is to light into Charity as the abuser into which his views on child rearing will inevitably lead him. Yet I am held back by what others have observed concerning Charity’s thought processes.
He comes across as somebody who is foolishly trying to come across as being more educated and intelligent than he really is. However, there are other explanations for disordered-seeming thinking that would lead us to pity him rather than to (ahem) chastise/discipline him. Plus, it isn’t just a matter of disordered thinking. It could be a symptom that he appears to be obsessed to the point of paranoia with the perceived threat of somebody trying to intervene, to control him.
So, my prayer is that our Lord will intervene in such manner as is appropriate, first, to protect Charity’s children and spouse (assuming he has any) and, second, to form him into a safe, non-violent and truly loving father and husband. We can hope that no more will be required than that Charity be introduced to a wise and true teacher to whom he is willing to listen. Unfortunately, I fear that a period of incarceration may be required, if only to impress him with the need to receive whatever care may be appropriate to address his disordered thought patterns and paranoia.
But mostly, my prayers are for any children and spouse Charity may have.
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lifewithporpoise,
Thank you for your kind words. To tell the truth, I struggle to live according to the views I express. Even humor can be a refuge for obscuring cynicism, contemptuousness, judgmentalism, objective guilt, and such.
Not that I’m admitting anything, of course.
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Do others not hold the right to offset discrimination within counter balance? Do others force you to raise your voice?
In simple parable. Yes there were severe tornadoes and flooding in many areas; before and over Christmas. Are their needs not more important than yours? The many of conviction were helping while you opened presents and raised your voice; but this is the way it has been and will always be.
Please do not feel sorry for us though; we have HIS Blessings here and treasures laid up in Heaven. We have closeness and oneness of family that many will never experience (and yes we got to open presents also).
My wife, daughters, community… are usually less tolerant than I. My wife is very learned, knowledged and wise within conviction. She says I am responsible for that, but I could never create such beautiful traits; these are HIS pure Blessings. Both she and my youngest 15 year old daughter would ask what do you have to offer other than opinions; along with the experience and knowledge backing such? Is that not true irony?
My wife would ask; who is going to provide for and protect “you” in need? Should we not raise our grandchildren and teach others in such expectations? You seem to have no need for anyone; but rely on everyone (she does not tolerate much).
While fluent in many; English is my primary language. Do you have issues with content, delivery or concept? Do not expect us to divert back to ancient “proper” English, if that is the intent. It is far too limiting and society outgrew that restrictive art form a long time ago.
Planning and coordination is done; back to work (unpaid of the world of course). We do Love you and will always be there; remember that (and remember HIM).
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@Charity
Which is all you have presented here, since you cannot prove your position is scriptural.
You seem to think not, since you feel the need to come here and “teach” us instead of tending to the business in your community.
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Marsha, very quickly since I did not catch your comment, if you wish to speak of Law; I would suggest that you become sufficiently versed in such.
Because of you and those like you, we are unable to provide protection for the children of this Country; in either the anticipated civility of protection order or intervention. The absolute abuse of the courts and system within such limited discriminatory knowledge has made everyone Else’s jobs and convictions much more difficult.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County DSS, US Supreme Court (1989):
“In defense of them, it must also be said that, had they moved too soon to take custody of the son away from the father, they would likely have been met with charges of improperly intruding into the parent-child relationship, charges based on the same Due Process Clause that forms the basis for the present charge of failure to provide adequate protection”
Even though needed, we can no longer direct funds into anything that has women in the name (women’s shelter…) without audit; because of the abuse of funding and purposes of those like you.
Do you have constructive suggestions; or do you do nothing and help no one? Could you at least not try to make our jobs and tasks harder?
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Charity says to Marsha, “if you wish to speak of Law; I would suggest that you become sufficiently versed in such.”
Well, guess what, when Marsha says “parents may raise children within religious traditions with two important qualifications: they may not break the law and children have rights as well,” she is spot on correct.
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@Charity
🙂 I dare say Marsha knows far more about the law in this area than you do. Are you sure you really want to go there?
@Gary W
She is. And the people who trumpet “parental rights” don’t really care about the children.
http://hsinvisiblechildren.org/
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Charity,
I don’t think I can even count the number of things in this post that bother me…
First, what does “of conviction” mean? You keep using that phrase, but you never explain it.
I’m glad you were there to help people in trouble, but don’t act superior because of that. No, I didn’t help, but that doesn’t mean I have less “conviction” (whatever that means). I live half a world away. What was I supposed to do? Teleport there? I’ve not even heard news of anything like tornadoes in the States — it’s mostly local news here.
What do you mean? What have I ever said to suggest that I rely on “everyone”?
Translation: You refuse to be civil and speak in ways that the rest of us can easily follow. You will continue to couch your language in code and phrases that have meaning only for you, so that you can consider yourself superior to the rest of us spiritual peons. (By all means, correct me if I’m misunderstanding you.)
This sounds suspiciously like “loading the language”, one of Robert Lifton’s criteria of thought reform. I don’t know who’s been teaching you to talk like this, Charity, but I would run far away from them, and take your family with you.
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From Charity to Marsha:
And what’s your “constructive suggestion”, Charity? To beat the devil out of our kids, even if it kills them? The Pearls seem to have no problem with that, and apparently neither does Lori.
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BTDT,
Charity is starting to sound a bit like Tom Cruise now. Did you catch his arrogant, know-it-all attitude towards Matt Lauer a few years ago? “Matt, you don’t know the real history of psychiatry. I do.“
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Charity, you just accused me of abusing funding for women’s shelters. I have done no such thing! I have served as treasurer for two nonprofits (not shelters) responsibly as shown by annual audits.
You come here and hurl accusations and don’t even read the responses. As to your question about what we actually do to help others, I gave you some examples.
Protecting children is NOT incompatible with due process. Due process protects both parents and children because allegations of abuse, neglect and dependency must be proven. That does not delay rescue since Child Protective Services may go and get an emergency ex parts order from a judge without delay.
Please refrain from telling me I don’t know the law. I was a consultant to our state Family Court on child welfare for years before I retired.
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BeenThereDoneThat: “Could you give some New Testament scriptures where Christians are instructed to hit their children?”
Charity: “Hebrews 12:
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.”
That text say that fathers of the flesh – human parents – chastise “for their own pleasure” and God is different, we should rather be in subjection to God (than to human parents). This passage is about as anti-parental chastisement as can be, ascribing selfish motives to parents who punish and setting obedience to God against obedience to parents.
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