Doug Wilson Series: Introduction, Christ Church Celebrates 40 years and Background

Doug Wilson, Christ Church, CREC, Greyfriars Hall, Association of Classical & Christian Schools, Canon Press, New Saint Andrews, Steven Sitler, Jamin Wight

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it. ~G.K. Chesterton

Last night, I returned home after a 1-1/2 day trip to Moscow, Idaho, home of Pastor Douglas Wilson and Christ Church. Coincidentally, today members of Christ Church celebrated the church’s 40th anniversary, so today is the perfect day to introduce a series of posts related to Doug Wilson and Christ Church. I will be writing articles and others will be contributed.

doug wilson, christ church, moscow, CREC

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Christ Church, Doug Wilson

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During my trip, I spent most of the time talking with people connected in some way or another with Doug Wilson or Christ Church. These people were either former members, acquaintances, interested parties, business people, all affected by Doug Wilson in some way, shape, or form, some negatively, and some positively.

I spoke with one person within the church and one person outside of the church asking about the recent social media coverage of two sex abuse cases involving pedophiles under Doug Wilson’s watch and how that has affected the community. Both said that people in the community are indeed talking about the scandals, and they also realize it has reached far beyond the community of Moscow with just under 25,000 people. The news of Doug Wilson defending pedophiles, Jamin Wight and Steven Sitler, have not gone unnoticed. People are upset, and rightly so.

Before I begin discussing various issues, it’s important to have some background. On Wilson’s blog, Blog and Mablog, he tells us a little bit about himself and his theological and political beliefs:

I want to advance what you might call a Chestertonian Calvinism, and to bring that attitude to bear on education, sex and culture, theology, politics, book reviews, postmodernism, expository studies, along with other random tidbits that come into my head. My perspective is usually not hard to discern. In theology I am an evangelical, postmill, Calvinist, Reformed, and Presbyterian, pretty much in that order. In politics, I am slightly to the right of Jeb Stuart. In my cultural sympathies, if we were comparing the blight of postmodernism to a vast but shallow goo pond, I would observe that I have spent many years on these stilts and have barely gotten any of it on me.

Now let’s take a look at the mission statement for Christ Church:

Our mission at Christ Church is summed up by the phrase “all of Christ for all of life.” Under the grace of God, this means that our desire is to make Moscow a Christian town through faithful and robust covenant renewal worship on the Lord’s Day, through proclamation of the gospel to unbelievers, while training additional evangelists who will continue proclaiming that gospel, through teaching men and women how to live together in harmonious Christian marriage, through establishing a family-friendly culture of Christian education in which well-loved and well-disciplined children will learn to stay the course, through outreach that brings people to church, accommodating them where they are while seeking to bring them into maturity in a structured way, through genuine cultural engagement that provides Christian leadership in the arts, in business, in education, in politics, and in literature, and through a regular series of church plants on the Palouse as we have gifted, trained and ordained men, willing congregants, adequate resources, and available facilities. And we seek to do all of this in gladness and simplicity of heart, as we pursue love for God and love for our neighbor.

Tuck away the key points from the mission statement. I think you will be able to connect some dots as I and others share more of the goings on around Moscow, Idaho. The pedophile scandals have been horrific, but there are other issues that have been going on for years that are not making the local news, yet they are damaging lives, spiritually, emotionally, financially, etc.

Stay tuned!


photo credit: Zorionak! via photopin (license);

Note: I’ve had several people contact me privately and send information. I greatly appreciate it. If you have a personal story to share about Doug Wilson, Logos, New Saint Andrews, Greyfriars Hall, Association of Classical & Christian Schools, Center for Biblical Counseling, Canon Press, Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches (whew, I think I got most of them), please contact me at spiritualsb@gmail.com.

113 comments on “Doug Wilson Series: Introduction, Christ Church Celebrates 40 years and Background

  1. Julie Anne, I am looking forward to reading about the inner workings of the Kirk and its enterprises (yes, that was meant to be a play of words on Star Trek). Me thinks there might be some similarities between the m.o. of The Borg, and that of DW and his devoted supporters.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. Are you able to define “the Kirk?” I’ve seen that phrase a lot, but am clueless on what it means.

    And, this really stood out to me: “through establishing a family-friendly culture of Christian education in which well-loved and well-disciplined children will learn to stay the course.” Honestly, it gives me the shivers.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Here’s the latest from Natalie herself:

    http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2015/09/yes-were-still-talking-about-this.html

    Honestly, this rabbit hole just keeps getting deeper and more disgusting. I cannot begin to fathom what makes Doug Wilson think that he can blame a 13-year-old child for the actions of one of his adult seminary students. I cannot begin to fathom what makes Doug Wilson think that he can foist the blame for that adult seminary student’s criminal behavior on the parents of the 13-year-old child, when Doug very clearly vouched for all of his seminary students to safely board with members of the NSA surrounding community.

    This is some %^&cked up sh!t right here. Who does Doug Wilson believe he is still capable of fooling at this point?

    Liked by 4 people

  4. I am so pleased you are doing this series, Julie. I cannot wait to hear of your impressions. “Kirk” is the Scottish word for church. The people who attend the “kirk’ like to pretend they are just a bit more sophisticated than we plebeians.

    I understand that some even like to dress up in bowler hats (!) and they regularly consult a thesaurus in order to use uncommon words since they believe it makes them appear a bit more sophisticated than the culture around them. They aren’t! In fact, they sometimes seem a bit silly but don’t tell them I said that!! 🙂

    Liked by 4 people

  5. Ahhh…Dee, that makes sense. If the word spewing on his blog is any indication, I get the sense that he uses big words (and lots of words) to make himself sound intelligent. In my opinion, if you can’t make a point in a few words, then you really don’t have a point to make. Kind of reminds me of Kevin Swanson.

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  6. That indeed is the very one, Rose. I wonder if Moscow thought Scotland was taking over when DW came to town? So confusing! Oh . . . and they’re a church, too? And a grade school, and a university, and a seminary? Wait, and a publisher, and a counseling center?

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  7. Julie Anne,

    I don’t Tweet — yet. But in answer to your Tweet tonight about what it means when a husband accuses his wife of being rebellious? My answer: It means she’s NOT being a doormat or wall-to-wall carpeting!

    Liked by 3 people

  8. “Oh . . . and they’re a church, too? And a grade school, and a university, and a seminary? Wait, and a publisher, and a counseling center? ” – Julie Anne

    And…a dating service, a matchmaking service, a bail bonds service, and a *prison* (for women and children that is, and decent folks, but NOT for sexual predators).

    Liked by 4 people

  9. And J D Hall defends Douglas Wilson, his defence is what scripture verses do you have that a pedophile can not get married and have a child.

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  10. I didn’t say that a pedophile cannot get married. Don’t read words that aren’t there. There are many questions that haven’t been answered:

    What in the world was Iverson and her dad thinking lining her up with a pedophile? Who in their right mind would do that? NO ONE MATCHES A YOUNG LADY THEY LOVE WITH A PEDOPHILE. Yes, I was screaming.

    Secondly, no one forced Wilson to marry them. Wilson’s job as shepherd is to PROTECT THE FLOCK and future children that would likely come as a result of marriage. Sitler made it known that he wanted children and that should have been all that Wilson needed to say, “No, I will not marry you, it is not in your best interest to get married.”

    Could Sitler have gone somewhere else to get married? Sure. But I believe Wilson is complicit in this by his choice to marry Katie and Steven.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. On the other story at hand here:

    If you look at Natalie’s most recent blog post, it is very clear from the new letter she published that Doug Wilson explicitly tried to hold her responsible for having a “relationship” with Jamin Wight at the age of 13. There is something very wrong with a man who argues for leniency for a sexual predator who has broken the very laws that society has put in place to protect children of any legal age from sexual abuse. It’s completely crazy.

    Liked by 3 people

  12. Keep in mind in this culture, it’s fine for girls to marry at a young age. A woman’s primary lot in life is to serve husband and make babies. That pesky law for minimum age requirements seems to interfere with “young love.”

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  13. Julie Anne, I have been in the industry since around 1974 right after my brother died, I was 14. I did not get officially saved until 1980, then later I got unsaved several times because I did not tow the party line for whatever franchise I happen to be a cog in at the time. My heart breaks for the people involved in this situation but one thing I think is critical is the importance of what I call “the apologetic”, it is not just the defence of the industry but to the specific subcontracts between the cog and cogetts and the management. Some franchises have more subcontracts than others and use a more structured approach to maintaining two very critical aspects of success, the first and foremost is the revenue / power structure and the other is the ability to massively retaliate against potential rivals and internal strife.

    The problem is that those in mid or upper management cannot back down on any issue no matter what, they have to double down or lose the illusion of control. It is my personal belief that this is what the management of this franchise are stuck in. I asked a question “why were not any of the truly saved in Moscow, doing what you did / doing”. Well, they are too busy rearranging lawn chairs on the titanic. The other problem is that they are all rowing right for the iceberg with eyes wide shut. They double down and go all out on Knatt issues while standing in the camel swallowing line. Again this is just my opinion, I use to believe I was in the family, I have repented of my stupidity on that point.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. *Like to Hester

    Calvinism is scary enough, but “Chestertonian Calvinism?” It sounds like these folks “are working their way up on the stairway to heaven.” So much for the sacrifice Jesus paid on that tree, which did it all for those who love and trust in Him alone.

    Is there such a thing as “American Calvinism?” Wow.

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Hester, it’s more sophisticated than you or I can ever know.

    JA, no one can accuse you of blogging in your mom’s basement anymore. Expect opposition to ratchet up against you as move your sphere of influence into hostile territory. And especially as you do it with great love. I very seldom tell people I’m praying for them anymore (it’s a trigger word with blechhh meaning) but in this case I will say you and many other really brave women are indeed at the top of my heart, continually offered to God with great hope, for wisdom, power, and protection.

    I think the time is near to present well-made cases, supported with our signatures, to our elected representatives. The primary issue here is the documentable fact that those who break the law, especially pedophiles, are repeatedly given safe haven in large established organizations which have (a) orchestrated procedures of enforced silence to intimidate victims and witnesses of crimes, (b) constantly created an atmosphere of plausible deniability for their leaders who commission these conspiracies, and (c) continually flouted child abuse reporting statutes. Oh, and (d), are 501c-3 organizations which avail themselves of financial incentives from, as well as protection of, the states that they have given the finger to.

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  16. Julie Anne,
    NO ONE MATCHES A YOUNG LADY THEY LOVE WITH A PEDOPHILE. Yes, I was screaming.

    Allow me to scream with you. NO ONE MATCHES A YOUNG LADY THEY LOVE WITH A PEDOPHILE. I feel better now.

    Liked by 3 people

  17. Kathi said: ” if you can’t make a point in a few words, then you really don’t have a point to make.” That wordy mission statement has my head spinning. There is not one word about giving God any glory whatsoever. It does say, “our desire is to make Moscow a Christian town through faithful and robust covenant renewal worship on the Lord’s Day”. Does this mean they can live like the devil all week as long as they renew on the Lord’s Day? That could explain why they don’t have a problem with marrying off young women to pedophiles. As long as it doesn’t happen on Sunday, it’s all good.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. JA said:

    “Keep in mind in this culture, it’s fine for girls to marry at a young age. A woman’s primary lot in life is to serve husband and make babies. That pesky law for minimum age requirements seems to interfere with “young love.” ”

    This instantly reminded me of the Matthew and Maranatha Chapman story where they got their church wedding when he was 28 and she was 15. Jonathan Lindvall used to be somewhat popular in the homeschooling world for years, until the fact of their ages (something long concealed) hit the internet.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. “Hester on September 21, 2015 at 4:14 AM
    I want to advance what you might call a Chestertonian Calvinism

    Umm…Chesterton was Catholic, so what on earth is “Chestertonian Calvinism”?”

    It’s Doug Wilson playing the Pope role in a small town where he can make many lives miserable in the process.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. That mission statement sounds like a Federal Vision statement to me. Spread the gospel by moving in, taking over, and subduing a small town.

    That is exactly how Jesus spread the Gospel. Isn’t it?

    Like

  21. Julie Anne on September 21, 2015 at 7:17 AM
    “Bridget, were you hiding in my purse on my recent visit?”

    I’m afraid I wouldn’t have been hiding if I had the good fortune to make the trip! 😉 Only one state separates us, but I’m at the far end of the state that is bigger than most countries.

    Like

  22. He claims to be post mil, then identifies his mission as turning Moscow Idaho into a Christian town which sounds quite pre mil to me. Just another example of saying whatever he likes in order to be the one who has complete say in what goes on in his sphere.

    Liked by 2 people

  23. That church mission statement is only 3 sentences, the second is a doozy. Anyway, just wondering where I read in the NT where Jesus calls us to make towns Christian? Or lay out all the doctrines to get in line with in order to then be a Christian town?

    Liked by 3 people

  24. I’m back to school today and so that means I do blog posts when they fit in with my schedule. It actually might be good to do that in this series because each of the topics deserve some thought and discussion to see the full picture.

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  25. our desire is to make Moscow a Christian town . . .

    . . . by marrying off pedophiles to naive, fertile young women to ensure easy access to victims? By calling a 13/14-year-old girl responsible for being molested by a man ten years older than her? Whatever Wilson is trying to make of Moscow it isn’t Christian.

    Liked by 3 people

  26. Tim,

    Years ago I went to a PCA church where the majority view was postmillenialism and a few folks subscribed to the Chalcedon Report. Christianizing a small town would be but a tiny component of what they expect to eventually happen; namely, the Christianizing of a majority of the world before Jesus’ second coming. My experience with premillenial thinking when I was a kid was basically: the world is going to hell in a handbasket, Jesus is coming back any time now, spread the gospel to whomever you still can, but don’t worry about saving anything substantial from society at large.

    I am not familiar with the CREC’s views on or methods of evangelism. They appear to believe in a form of incrementalism, which would be consistent with the theonomic Reconstructionist vision.

    Like

  27. G. k. Chesterton hated Calvinism and people like Doug Wilson ( must have been a decent guy huh ? ) . If Doug Wilson is promoting “Chestertonian Calvinism” it must be the type of Calvinism of his imagination that makes you want to run out and buy Mace for your 10 year old daughter, and an AK-47 for yourself when you hear about it.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. Bridget said, “That mission statement sounds like a Federal Vision statement to me. Spread the gospel by moving in, taking over, and subduing a small town.”

    It occurs to me that at least Mr. Wilson seems to have a consistent strategy for all domains of life — penetrate, conquer, colonize, plant — and that’s certainly part of what a dominionistic praxeology is about, isn’t it?

    Sexy politics …

    [Moderator: Comment edited to add Brad’s name, as he accidentally left it off when posting his comment. He says he doesn’t generally do “Anonymous” comments.]

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  29. @Dee:

    I understand that some even like to dress up in bowler hats (!) …

    I’d like to see a REAL Brit comment on that one.

    (Why do I have this mental image of John Steed from The Avengers or the Forties version of Dr Watson?)

    … and they regularly consult a thesaurus in order to use uncommon words since they believe it makes them appear a bit more sophisticated than the culture around them.

    Chris “Eragon” Paolini wrote like he “regularly consulted a thesaurus”, and it became a running joke. In his case, he was an inexperienced kid making a lot of beginner’s mistakes in a first fanfic that by sheer dumb luck made the best-seller list; what’s these guys’ excuse?

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  30. @Monique:

    That church mission statement is only 3 sentences, the second is a doozy. Anyway, just wondering where I read in the NT where Jesus calls us to make towns Christian?

    The same place where ISIS’s version of the Koran calls them to make Syrian and Iraqi towns Truly Islamic?

    Liked by 1 person

  31. @Cerbaz:

    And J D Hall defends Douglas Wilson, his defence is what scripture verses do you have that a pedophile can not get married and have a child.

    “SHOW ME SCRIPTURE! SHOW ME SCRIPTURE! SHOW ME SCRIPTURE!”
    — favorite thoughtstopper comeback line of Raul Rees, Calvary Chapel West Covina, on late Seventies local Christianese AM radio.

    Like

  32. My dad bought a massive orange tent from the auction after the place shut down. There’s a funny camping story with that tent. We thought a bear was outside trying to get in. Turns out the wind was blowing and causing the zipper to flap around. We were so scared.

    Like

  33. “And J D Hall defends Douglas Wilson, his defence is what scripture verses do you have that a pedophile can not get married and have a child.” – Cerbaz

    Let me see…something about Jesus saying that it would be better for someone who would hurt a child to have millstone tied around their neck and be drowned in the deepest sea….

    Jesus never recommended Plan B: Find him a wife and get him hitched.

    Even the very conservative Bayley Blog *saw the light*.
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/09/09/good-night-the-bayly-blog-issues-an-apology-and-retracts-support-for-doug-wilsons-open-letter/

    Liked by 1 person

  34. Hey SSB readers, here is an interesting short video with DW interviewing his father about non-celibate males finding a mate, especially when they are getting older, as in 27 yrs. old according to the Wilson fellas. Now, guess what age Sitler was fast approaching when he married?

    Like

  35. HUG said:
    “SHOW ME SCRIPTURE! SHOW ME SCRIPTURE! SHOW ME SCRIPTURE!”

    I think that is why God gave us a brain and intends us to use it for COMMON SENSE, which tends not to be so common. Unless you marry a pedophile without anyone being aware, it is safe to say DON’T DO IT, RUN.

    Like

  36. “Being in love is almost always love for yourself…..” – according to Wilson’s father. The message I get out of that video – just find a woman…any woman who’ll marry you, to satisfy your sex drive. You needn’t have high standards cuz chances are you won’t find anyone who fits those standards. So settle for someone, because…well, y’know – you gotta satisfy your sex drive. That’s what’s most important, fellas.

    Liked by 2 people

  37. I would love to hear this again. It is just too funny. “Ask her name and marry her!!” Seriously?? Why would SHE do that? Is he suppose to put a bag over her head if he is not attracted to her? How do they know these 27 year olds are actually celibate? of course, they did say non-celibate males, as if they expected them to be. I suppose being non-celibate doesn’t include CHILDREN. Are they going to go back to the Jewish ways and use a cloth to make sure the woman is a virgin afterwards? We already know that Katie was 23 and an Old Maid. These guys disgust me!!

    Liked by 2 people

  38. 1. 27 seems to be the magic cut off age, huh?

    2. Some of these people need “help to recognize the will of God.” So that’s what Iverson was doing for Katie and Steven – helping them determine the will of God. It all makes sense now.

    3. Poor cousin Jeff getting thrown under the bus!

    4. I love how daddy places women in categories: Barbie dolls, brains, dumb and plain.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. I thought y’all would get a kick out of that video. It’s a glimpse into the world of Wilsonian Patriarchy. And of course “Ask her name and marry her” ignores the agency of the woman. Me Man – You Woman – Marry Me and Submit!

    Liked by 2 people

  40. Kathi: I think a lot of 20 something men with a high sex drive would prefer a Barbie doll to brains. Of course, a Barbie doll with brains might be a bit intimidating to men inside the Kirk. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  41. I can’t see a Barbie doll with brains ever submitting. I could be wrong, but it just doesn’t seem like they would need to.

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  42. I couldn’t get through more than 2:00 of that stupid, stupid video. It was just too nauseating.

    What’s really funny is if it came to an actual fight, I could beat DW senseless with both hands tied behind my back, literally. I could just kick him until he fell over. He’s such a corpulent, bloated, sad excuse for masculinity. He poses zero threat to the real men in the world. I doubt he could do a pushup if his life depended on it. How does such a squishy, pathetic excuse for manliness exert any influence over anyone? What a joke.

    Liked by 1 person

  43. Tim,

    I don’t understand how it sounds pre mill, I believe DW follows Abraham Kuyper, the reformed dutch theologian and former prime minister of Holland who taught the doctrine of sphere sovereignty (I believe kuyper had nine cultural spheres the church was suppose to take over). This theology is closer to the Seven Mountains teaching. It’s Dominionism. Which fits DW “all of Christ for all of life for all of the world” and is very much in line with TGC.

    In fact the only theology that doesn’t fit is pre mill, pre trib.

    Like

  44. Tim, maybe historic pre mill fits DW and TGC, but it still pretty much about the ‘kingdom’ taking over society until the second advent so it works with post mill.

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  45. “I would love to hear this again. It is just too funny. “Ask her name and marry her!!” Seriously?? Why would SHE do that?” Brenda R.

    Sounds stalkerish to me! I would be handing out Gavin de Becker’s book The Gift of Fear about safety. I like one of his quotes in there: “Men who can’t take ‘no’, choose women who can’t say ‘no’.”

    Liked by 3 people

  46. I could just kick him until he fell over. He’s such a corpulent, bloated, sad excuse for masculinity. He poses zero threat to the real men in the world. I doubt he could do a pushup if his life depended on it.

    That remind you of another Real Manly Man preacher-type? As in Punch ’em in the nose and throw them under the bus in-between watching MMA cage fights? “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”?

    Like

  47. 1. 27 seems to be the magic cut off age, huh?

    In my younger days, I thought 25-30 was the ideal age to get married, still young but past adolescent chaos. But a rigid cutoff date?

    4. I love how daddy places women in categories: Barbie dolls, brains, dumb and plain.

    Just a necessary piece of equipment for The Man to start Penetrating, Colonizing, Conquering, Planting.

    Now we know where Douggie gets it from.

    Liked by 2 people

  48. “Ask her name and marry her!!” You’ve got to be kidding me.

    If 27 is considered the Wilsons’ ideal cutoff for a man getting married, then what happens to those of us still single in our mid-50’s? Lord have mercy.

    Liked by 3 people

  49. It was always one of the bigger criticisms that I got at church, that I was not married. It was basically because I was lazy, stupid, ugly, did not make enough money (that was a huge one). The second they found out I was in special ed, forget it strike sixteen. The main reason was from about 19 until about 52 I have been taking care of family members either my nephew or my father sister and mother who all had very long illnesses and eventually died. Funny that was never considered a really relevant reason as they were not true believers and thus don’t count. Another thing I learned at church. So I spent most of my life involved in what I use to call “ministry”, I no longer call it that, another gift from the evangelical machine. I can tell you this, this stuff hurts, it cuts deep, and the nerves are still very raw. It should not I understand that, but it does.

    Liked by 2 people

  50. Brian, I’m so sorry you were treated as unworthy by your church. Your care for family and your faithfulness in spite of the church–that’s the true fruit of the Spirit. Just want you to know I’m praying for you.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. Velour,
    “Men who can’t take ‘no’, choose women who can’t say ‘no’.”

    I can say that sounds too true for comfort. I need to read DeBecker’s book. I have it in my stack of books that I need to work through.

    Like

  52. singleman,

    If 27 is considered the Wilsons’ ideal cutoff for a man getting married, then what happens to those of us still single in our mid-50’s? Lord have mercy.

    Apparently, you were called to celibacy in their mindset. I don’t know if you want to marry, but I’m sure if you do, God will provide even in your mid-50’s.

    Like

  53. Brian,
    You should have been respected for the service and value you placed on your family. It’s never too late. There is someone out there that will value you for what you did for your family and the love you have to give.

    Liked by 1 person

  54. As Daisy has pointed out on her blog, there is a type of older guy who is still not married because regardless of his own appearance, he thinks he is entitled to a 9 or 10 in the looks department. That said, I could never recommend marrying someone just for the sake of being married without romantic and sexual attraction.

    There was also no mention of friendship or being able to respect the potential spouse.

    Oh, and I’m not a Barbie doll. I probably would have been labeled a “brain”. Not sure whether that would have been an advantage in Christ Church, though.

    Like

  55. “there is a type of older guy who is still not married because regardless of his own appearance, he thinks he is entitled to a 9 or 10 in the looks department” – NJ

    A radio psychologist has a great way of making people think about *looks*:
    “So when you go the mall, are all of the couples happily walking around together, 9s or 10s?” (Additionally, think about all of the famous, gorgeous people who have gotten divorced. So the *looks* won’t hold a marriage together.)

    Like

  56. “Which of the three groups are you in?”

    I’m not sure why that matters, but I dated in my 20’s and early 30’s expecting that I’d find a mate someday. Obviously I didn’t. I’ve got some strange stories I could share, but this isn’t the appropriate time or place.

    I’d never heard of Doug Wilson or Albert Mohler when I was that young, and I was already in my late 30’s when Joshua Harris’ infamous book was published. Still, the advice I received back in that day wasn’t any better.

    Like

  57. “I don’t know if you want to marry, but I’m sure if you do, God will provide even in your mid-50’s.”

    If I had $5 for every time I’ve heard “God will provide” regarding a mate, I’d be a lot better off financially. Sorry, but I don’t find that statement helpful.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. singleman,

    If I had $5 for every time I’ve heard “God will provide” regarding a mate, I’d be a lot better off financially. Sorry, but I don’t find that statement helpful.

    I’m sorry. I meant no offense. I’m divorced from an abusive spouse, so marriage wasn’t the best thing I could have done. So, what do I know.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. If I had $5 for every time I’ve heard “God will provide” regarding a mate, I’d be a lot better off financially.

    If I had, I could have retired by now.

    Ever notice the church types telling you this all married at 18?

    Liked by 2 people

  60. “Ever notice the church types telling you this all married at 18?”

    Actually, I know very few who married at 18. 21-25 is more common, at least among the most ardent pro-marriage Christians I know. I live in an area where going to college is considered the norm for most high school graduates, so it’s rare for anyone to marry at 18.

    Like

  61. The Bible doesn’t state an age when anyone should marry.
    What evangelicals and Baptists say can vary on this, though. Some may insist late 20s is the cut-off age, but a lot of them seem to think 40 is the magical age.

    I’ve repeatedly seen other mature, never-married Christians who are over age 40 or 50, say on other sites that they heard sermons in church where the preacher said if you weren’t married by age 40, God had called you to be single.

    But the Bible says no such thing. How these guys can claim to be sola scriptura and yet keep making up doctrines out of thin air like this is mind boggling.

    The Bible does not prescribe or command an age by which to marry, nor does it teach that being single is a “calling,” but many Christians keep repeating these things.

    I have an older post on my blog with excerpts by another guy who explains that several biblical characters were not married for the first time until they were 40.

    I have another blog post where a preacher mentions he did not marry for the first time until he was 41 or 42. Saying there is a cut off age for marriage is a lot of hooey and very discouraging for anyone over the cut off age who still would like to marry.

    I have a few posts on my blog about some of these subjects (I also have a blog post or two about Doug Wilson).

    Like this one (about singleness):
    Christians Advise Singles To Follow Certain Dating Advice But Then Shame, Criticize, or Punish Singles When That Advice Does Not Work

    (You’re welcome to leave comments there on that post (or whatever other ones) if you like, although I have my blog situated where I have to approve of the first 2 or 3 comments by new members.)

    Liked by 1 person

  62. Someone wrote:

    If I had $5 for every time I’ve heard “God will provide” regarding a mate, I’d be a lot better off financially.

    There are thousands of Christian cliches’ tossed at singles about dating or how to get married; that is but one of them.

    And so far, I’ve not seen any of this Christian advice or Christian cliches work for me and many singles I’ve run across on the internet.

    I called some Christian lady out on tweeting one such similar cliche’ a few weeks ago. I was polite about it, but I tried to get her to see her Tweet was actually nonsense and can be more harmful to adult singles than helpful.

    She tweeted me back with some reply. I got the vibe she was assuming I’m a 21 year old college student = something about trust in God, and he’ll send me a spouse. I told her, I doubt it, I’m over 40 now and still single, and had trusted in God for years for this.

    She then responded with something like, it’s not too late, and repeated God will provide. She’s sure my spouse is just around the corner! The amount of naiveté from her and Christians like her is simply breath-taking.

    Even worse than that is the variation I’ve gotten from one or two other Christians online.
    They tell me not to give up faith in God on this matter right now, because what if God was planning on sending my my spouse five minutes from now, and just think, if only I had held on for another two or five minutes, my dream of marriage would come true!!11!!!1

    I don’t find that comforting at all. On the contrary, it sounds like a cruel and capricious God. It sounds like Loki from Scandinavian lore.

    I don’t want to follow or worship a God who is all like,
    ~~~~~~~~
    “Christian Pundit, I know you prayed to me from a young age for a spouse. But now you’re over 40 and still single.
    “Dang, I was just about to send you a husband at 1:05 P.M. today, but because you gave up, tossed in the towel at 1:04 P.M. today, stopped having faith in me for this right at that time, I am not going to send you that spouse after all. Bazinga!!
    “You sucker. Just think, if you had had faith for another sixty seconds, I would have answered your prayer in the affirmative. Your loss. Oh so close yet so far away. No banana for yo. Wocka Wocka, as Fozzy would say.”
    ~~~~~~~
    But that is precisely the kind of God some Christians are telling me who I’ve been praying to since my childhood.

    That sounds like a jerk God like me, one who withholds help based on a technicality. Why would I want to trust in or love a God who is so shallow, flippant, and such a huge jerk?

    Liked by 3 people

  63. singleman said

    Actually, I know very few who married at 18. 21-25 is more common, at least among the most ardent pro-marriage Christians I know.

    Things have shifted. More Christians today, along with Non-Christians, are either not marrying at all, or the age of first marriage is now late 20s. (I have several posts at my blog with links to news articles with information tracking this stuff over the last few years).

    But the Christians who are in their like, 60s or 70s today, a lot of them did seem to get married from their teens to early 20s. These married Christians (aged about 60 or older) assume marrying at 18 to about 25 is normal, biblical, and the way it “should be.”

    So, if you don’t marry at all, or not until you are 40 something, 50 something, etc, they think you are a loser, or they assume you are deliberately putting off marriage (even if you are not). They don’t seem to comprehend how very hard it is to get married in the first place – especially as you get older, and especially if you are a Christian.

    About Doug Wilson. I did a post about how a few years ago and updated it a few days ago. He, like 99% of other Christians, doesn’t understand celibacy.

    You can be celibate and not be “called to it.” You can be celibate and still experience sexual desire and a desire to marry. The Wilsons and Mark Driscolls of the Christian world totally do not get that, or comprehend it, partly because they cannot fathom themselves personally living without sex for over one week, let alone someone like me, who is still a virgin in middle age (no sex ever, in decades).

    They assume folks like me have super powers or we have zero libido because gosh durn it, how ever do I manage to live without sex ever, they’d go crazy with no sex for two weeks.

    They are like, “My gosh, to be a virgin past the age of 35, God must have gifted this person with Super Powers that makes him or her immune from having sexual desire!”

    Wilson (and others like him) most often assume if you are still single at age X that God forced it on you, that you must enjoy being forever alone, celibate, and single, and they assume God supernaturally removed any and all sexual desire from you.

    All of this is false, false, false for many older singles, but Wilson, Driscoll, and others like them, keep promoting these views on their blogs, pod casts, sermons, and books.

    Liked by 2 people

  64. I do want to add that some singles do genuinely enjoy being single and have absolutely no desire at all to marry, and this includes some Non-Christians.

    But I’d say there is a huge number of singles who do want to be married, they cannot understand why they are still single, have a hard time meeting eligible partners, and there are a lot of celibate single Christians who do want to be married, who do experience sexual urges and would like to be having spouse (ideally with a spouse).

    I just don’t want to discount the percentage of singles I’ve read about and met online who are honestly totally thrilled with being single all the time. They get tired of well meaning friends trying to pair them up, send them on blind dates, or tired of media pressure to tie the knot, when they have no interest in marriage.

    Like

  65. I said,
    “do experience sexual urges and would like to be having spouse (ideally with a spouse).”

    Rather, I meant to type, “… do experience sexual urges and would like to be having SEX (ideally with a spouse)”
    – but I typed it wrong in my post above.

    Like

  66. I just watched that video and as a single, never married guy I find it hilariously naive and at times brutally insulting. These people really do think they have all the answers and are entitled to catagorize fellow believers according to their personal standards of thought which are entirely EXTRA-BIBLICAL ( especially the age 27 concept). It is obvious these two very foolish men have never spent much time talking with single people and listening to them. I can believe the have spent a lot of time talking at singles, but NOT with them. They are entirely clueless on this topic as well.

    Time for NORAD to conduct a war game training exercise and NUKE Moscow. I know just the building that can serve as the Kremlin, another that can be their military command center and another the Supreme leader’s home. This is one war game that has me wishing I was in the Air Guard.

    Oh boy if Daisy sees that video her blog will turn into a E-book over night. I don’t think Wilson will be writing the Foreword either.

    Like

  67. To go along with our theme of Love (in the Church, how believers should treat *one another*, marriage and singleness), a lovely song by Jazz singer Lizz Wright called “Lead the Way”. Ms. Wright grew up in a small Georgia town where her father was a pastor, her mother the music director, and she grew up singing Gospel, but developed a love for Jazz and Blues and did that in college.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. “I just don’t want to discount the percentage of singles I’ve read about and met online who are honestly totally thrilled with being single all the time”.

    This is what I was going for in my earlier comment and said poorly. I know many singles that want to stay that way. They don’t feel their lives would be better with a spouse or have seen one too many divorces and don’t wish to go there.

    I am divorced and would still like to marry again. The pickin’s are slim as I age. There seem to be far more single females my age and older than there are men available. Out of those men, they want the sex, but not the commitment. UGH!!!

    Liked by 1 person

  69. I have sometimes read posts or articles by singles who are either never married and totally thrilled being single and who never want to marry, and I’ve seen articles and posts by singles who have been divorced a time or two who never want to remarry, so such folks do exist.

    I think they may be in the minority, but they do exist. I think most singles do want to marry.

    There is a gender gap in dating. There are more men than women, especially among religious conservatives.

    About everything this link I provide below says about Mormons and Jews and being single and dating can apply to Christians too, and I’ve seen information saying that Christian single women do out number Christian men.

    This link talks mainly about never married 20 somethings, but again, you can swap out “never married” for “divorced” or 20 something for whatever age (40, 50, whatever) and it still rings true, and I suspect it is accurate.

    Seriously, you can mentally substitute words such as “evangelical,” “reformed,” and “Baptist” almost any time you see the words “Jewish” or “Mormon” in this article, and the points remain just as true:
    What Two Religions Tell Us About the Modern Dating Crisis

    Like

  70. Thanks all for the kind words, this stuff just struck a deep nerve where there is still quite a bit of bitterness on my part. Again thank you.

    Like

  71. “Bitterness” is a word that theological hypocrites use to try and guilt people into being ashamed of their natural emotions. You’re not bitter, Brian. You’re human.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. @christianpundit:

    You can be celibate and not be “called to it.” You can be celibate and still experience sexual desire and a desire to marry.

    “There are some who are called to be celibate, and there are some who have celibacty forced upon them.” — some character from The Simpsons

    The Wilsons and Mark Driscolls of the Christian world totally do not get that, or comprehend it, partly because they cannot fathom themselves personally living without sex for over one week, let alone someone like me, who is still a virgin in middle age (no sex ever, in decades).

    A whole WEEK? That LONG?
    More like a whole entire DAY (op cit MD).

    Like

  73. @Christianpundit:

    I don’t find that comforting at all. On the contrary, it sounds like a cruel and capricious God. It sounds like Loki from Scandinavian lore.

    No. The tales of Loki actually have a sense of humor — guy just couldn’t stay out of trouble, usually from his own great plan blowing up in his face. A lot of the Norse myths start out this way:
    Scene 1) Loki tries something clever.
    Scene 2) Thor shaking Loki by the neck.

    Like

  74. Has anyone seen the debate between Doug Wilson and Christopher Hitchens? It is called Collision. I’m afraid this discussion has reduced Doug Wilson to something he is not. If you watch the video you see two men who disagree on foundational issues (does God exist? is the Christian God good?) and yet they had a wonderful time debating each other.

    People have made Doug Wilson out to be a tyrant, and yet he willingly and happily debates an atheist. They became friends after this event and continued to correspond.

    From the little I know of this Sitler nightmare, I do NOT agree with how it was handled. But I say this from a large lack of knowledge. I know Julie Ann is doing her best to research and get information out here, but I’m concerned with how Doug Wilson’s theology is sometimes presented. He has been reduced to a bumbling idiot by commenters here. Bumbling idiots do not debate Christopher Hitchens and come out looking as good as he did.

    Mod Note: added 2 to Deb’s name because we already have a person named Deb who comments here.

    Like

  75. Hi Deb2,

    Welcome. Thanks for posting.

    I am not clear why you think that this “discussion has reduced Doug Wilson to something he is not”. How does your admiration of Wilson having a debate with someone, an interchange that you admired, mitigate the fact that when something was really important – felony sex crimes – Doug Wilson blew it???!!!

    In case you weren’t aware, there is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that EXCEEDS that of the Catholic Church.
    Sources: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the US and Richard Hammer, attorney at Church Law & Tax who studies more than 10,000 lawsuits per year against churches. The Sexual Abuse of Minors is the No. 1 reason that churches get sued every single year.

    This has grievous consequences for children, for their families, and for The Gospel and our witness before unbelievers. Many families NEVER return to ANY church after their children are sexually abused. Many children NEVER return to ANY church because it’s not a safe place for them. Churches routinely blow the handling of sexual abuse cases and further victimize child sexual abuse victims and their families.

    In the case of Natalie Greenfield being sexually abused by one of Doug Wilson’s students, who was boarding with her family and was nearly twice her age, Wilson and his elders attacked her father, attacked her, and even threatened them with the loss of communion. Mr. and Mrs. Greenfield’s marriage did not survive all of this and ended in divorce.

    About communion, what Wilson did is despicable. We aren’t supposed to do that to *one another*. I am a conservative Christian in California, my native state. If I had known at the time about this terrible situation, I would have gotten on a plane, flown from California to Idaho, rented a car and a hotel room, bought the elements for communion, and I would have personally gone to be with Gary Greenfield and his daughter Natalie and had communion with them. If Doug Wilson is so heinous he wouldn’t minister to these hurting saints, he wants to *lord it over them* and threaten them, I would have NONE of it and handled it the way the Lord would have the Greenfields attended to.

    About Katie Travis’ marriage to pedophile Steven Sitler, arranged by Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, and their elders, those pastors/elders should have pled incompetence to find Katie a suitor and either a) closed their eyes and opened a phone book to a page and pointed their finger at a man’s name (they could have probably chosen a better husband for her by this method), or b) given the task to unbelievers who have FAR MORE SENSE!!

    No, a man – Steven Sitler – who sexually abuses children in multiple states, including in Idaho (and including putting his penis in a 2-year old child’s mouth whose parents go to that church) is NOT FIT to walk our streets or get married to anyone!!! Why isn’t he sitting in prison in Idaho. Idaho Legislature: Fix this!!!

    Even the conservative Bayley Brothers changed course and came to their senses on the matter:

    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/pastoral-care-men-and-women-who-are-sexual-predators-against-children

    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/responding-heinous-sins-pastors-and-elders

    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/dealing-sexual-predators-objections-answered

    Like

  76. For Deb 2:
    More resources for you about child sexual abuse.

    Some other helpful resources dealing with child sexual abuse and prevention in the church:

    *Pastor Jimmy Hinton’s organization (the guy who did the in the video in the post below)
    http://www.churchprotect.org/

    *Pastor Les Ferguson’s blog about his painful journey of having his disabled son sexually abused by a church member and that church member murdering Les’ wife and disabled son. All of the things that Les has learned about abusers and his tough journey of healing (and struggles with faith).
    http://lesfergusonjr.com/

    *Pastor Jimmy Hinton’s mom Clara Hinton’s blog called Finding a Healing Place.
    http://www.findingahealingplace.com/

    [Thanks to Brenda R. who posts on this blog who told me about Clara Hinton’s blog after I found the story of son Jimmy Hinton.]

    Like

  77. For: Deb 2
    A video for you to watch by Pastor Jimmy Hinton about child sexual abuse in the church, training and prevention. It’s a tough subject and about 2.5 hours. I found it helpful to me to watch it for 20-minutes at a time and take a break.

    Like

  78. For: Deb2,

    Information on child sexual abuse at churches from the largest insurer of churches in the United States, Church Mutual:

    https://www.churchmutual.com/media/safetyResources/files/SafetyTipsSenSubject.pdf

    There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church. It is the No. 1 reason that churches are sued every single year according to the insurance companies and the attorneys. The liabilities are so great that some insurance companies are already pulling out of the church insurance coverage markets entirely and no longer covering churches.

    Like

  79. For Deb2,
    An interview between CorrectionsOne/Tier Talk (a professional organization for the corrections industry) and Dr. Anna Salter, an expert about sex offenders which also covers pedophiles. This interview is broken in to 5-parts.

    Like

  80. For Deb2:

    Attorney Richard Hammer at Church Law & Tax does a yearly list, after studying thousands of lawsuits every year against churches, and each and every year for years on end the Sexual Abuse of Minors it the No. 1 reason that churches get sued.

    Here is Mr. Hammer’s 2014 list of the 5 top reasons churches got sued:
    http://www.churchlawandtax.com/blog/2015/may/top-5-reasons-churches-went-to-court-in-2014.html

    “1. Sexual abuse of minors (11.7 percent of cases). Sadly, for several years the sexual molestation of minors has been the number one reason that churches went to court. Victims in these cases generally allege that a church is responsible for their injuries on the basis of negligent selection, retention, or supervision of the perpetrator. Churches have lost many of these cases due to their failure to implement appropriate safeguards in the selection and supervision of employees and volunteers who work with minors.

    Incidents of sexual misconduct involving minor victims can be devastating to the victim, the victim’s family, the offender, church leadership, and the church itself.

    Because this issue remains the number one reason churches go to court, and because of the significant harm that can be done to children, their families, and church leaders, churches need to take an aggressive position on this matter. Churches must implement policies and procedures that demonstrate proper screening and training of staff and volunteers, proper processes for reporting actual and suspected cases of abuse, and specific attention to the types of arrangements and settings that the church will permit.” – Richard Hammer, attorney Church Law & Tax

    Like

  81. Deb2:

    I could not possibly care less about Doug Wilson’s debate with Christopher Hitchens, as Hitchens was never a public speaker that I took seriously.

    As for Doug Wilson, it is my unwavering opinion that not only is he a buffoon, he is a dangerous heretic who coddles sex offenders in his church, ostracizing and silencing their victims and tearing apart people’s lives. Doug Wilson’s theology is utter tripe and bollocks. He is not a Christian, and he does not represent Christ at all in any way. Doug Wilson is a narcissistic scumbag, and the world will be better off when he finally dies of cholesterol poisoning or Type 2 diabetes or cirrhosis or whatever other illness an obviously gluttonous, alcoholic nitwit may eventually die from. Good riddance. He can’t die soon enough as far as I’m concerned.

    Liked by 1 person

  82. Honestly, I don’t enjoy being so uncharitable, but I view it as my bounden duty to wish death by early natural causes upon anyone who does as much damage to sex abuse victims as Doug Wilson has. Forgiveness is self-evidently useless in these cases.

    Liked by 1 person

  83. Darlene, I watched that conversation unfold as it occurred. How Doug is able to make statements like that and still convince himself he is in some way representative of Christ is bewildering to me. There are zero examples in the Bible of Christ vigorously defending child molesters to their victims, so I have no idea what the $^ck Doug’s clinical malfunction might be. It’s absolutely sickening to behold, whatever it is.

    Like

  84. Dash, I don’t blame you a bit for being furious. I believe that we are MEANT to be furious with anyone who abuses those who are helpless. AND those who defend them!

    Like

  85. Deb 2 said: “People have made Doug Wilson out to be a tyrant, and yet he willingly and happily debates an atheist. They became friends after this event and continued to correspond.

    From the little I know of this Sitler nightmare, I do NOT agree with how it was handled. But I say this from a large lack of knowledge. I know Julie Ann is doing her best to research and get information out here, but I’m concerned with how Doug Wilson’s theology is sometimes presented. He has been reduced to a bumbling idiot by commenters here. Bumbling idiots do not debate Christopher Hitchens and come out looking as good as he did.”

    My take: One debate doth not a sound theologian make.

    I used to believe wholeheartedly in Mr. Wilson’s theology, even though it hurt to do so. I gave up a lot, and I struggled, but I kept on because I was told it was “godly.” However, the fruit is rotten. Don’t say that we got rotten fruit because “we did it wrong.” We read all of Wilson’s books. We tried our best to live as he claimed scripture commanded us to live, if we were truly regenerate.

    Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light, but we never found it to be so.

    My children have turned away from this legalistic religion, and to my sorrow one claims to be an agnostic, and the other an atheist. (Well, the latter actually doesn’t care whether God exists or not. He is irrelevant.) I know they were baptized into the Covenant as infants (as the Philippian jailer, I think, went and was baptized and was saved, him and his whole family), so shouldn’t they be walking with God? Or perhaps, because they were brought up in the way they should go, when they’re old they’ll return to (and not depart from) it.

    You, if you cling to Wilson’s theology, might try to offer me cold comfort by saying that they probably aren’t among the Elect anyway, so it doesn’t really matter. (In fact, you might not even be shocked at the words of one pastor, who seemed quite buddy-buddy with Wilson in his visits to our church, and expressed the sage and wholesome and compassionate thought that unbelievers might as well go ahead and die ASAP to get the whole thing over with.)

    Now I expect you to marginalize what I’ve written here by calling me “bitter.”

    I’m not bitter. I’m just sad and sick at heart.

    Liked by 1 person

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