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Horrific story of spiritual abuse, mishandling of sex abuse, church membership, Matt Chandler, The Village Church, Jordan Root, pedophile, child pornography
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I woke up late this morning and checked my Twitter feed to find that many of my Twitter friends were shocked and appalled at the treatment of Karen Hinkley (formerly Karen Root) by Matt Chandler’s church, The Village Church.
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Amy Smith, aka @watchkeep on Twitter, is an advocate for abuse survivor, a twitterer extraordinaire, and a champion for exposing truth. She compiled a shocking article presenting primary source documents and screenshots of text messages about this situation.
We don’t need to wonder why people are leaving churches. This is a prime example of why I will never, ever, ever sign a dotted line to become a member of a church.
I will briefly summarize the story, but please read Amy’s article here: She Speaks: The Village Church protects a confessed pedophile and “disciplines” his wife, a brave young woman and missionary
Also, The Wartburg Watch will be covering follow-up stories next week. I am so grateful for Amy and Dee who expose this nonsense. Hopefully, by shining the light on these types of stories, others will not have to suffer the same kind of pain Karen has experienced.
Imagine being on the mission field in a foreign country and finding out that your husband has been viewing child pornography. Imagine having to pack up your belongings and come back home to your sending church and wonder what your future holds.
Karen released a statement. The bulk of the statement is to make sure that the truth is exposed. She rightly shares this concern:
It is my sincere hope that Jordan has not sexually abused any children, but I believe the circumstances warrant his exposure so that any victims who might be out there can be identified and given an opportunity for justice and healing.
However, these two key paragraphs are worth noting. This is a common pattern we see in churches that do not handle sex abuse cases well. They will defend the perpetrator and victims of the abuser are treated as if they are the primary problem:
The inclination towards minimization and secrecy that the pastors and elders of The Village Church have displayed is inexcusable. And the spiritual abuse I have experienced at their hands is unacceptable from those who would represent Jesus Christ. Jesus cares deeply for the vulnerable and the voiceless. He speaks strongly against those who would victimize children, and he went toe-to-toe with the religious bullies of his day who “tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” (Matthew 23) The treatment of Jordan as the victim and me as the perpetrator by the leadership of the church is an appalling reversal that evidences priorities that are not in line with the Word of God.
And this one:
Pastors and elders of The Village Church, I urge you to rethink your hasty and public declaration of Jordan’s repentance and require him to seek out appropriate treatment for the nature and seriousness of his issues. I also urge you to conduct a thorough inquiry into how this situation unfolded and reform any policies and practices that contributed to your failure to respond appropriately.
In Amy’s blog article, you will find a note Karen wrote to the leaders at The Village Church informing them that she is withdrawing her membership from the church. She also stated that she filed for an annulment from her pedophile husband.
A week or so later, she received this letter which outlined that The Village Church was putting her in church discipline for not allowing the church leadership to “care” for her. Furthermore, her soon-to-be ex-husband was NOT put in church discipline.
We have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders. As I mentioned in my first letter, this decision violates your covenant with us – and places you under discipline. Per section 10.5 of The Village Church bylaws, you are prohibited from voluntarily resigning membership while subject to the formal disciplinary process. We cannot, therefore, accept your resignation. – See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/#sthash.f9fRwy2Y.dpuf
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The article documents statements pastors at The Village Church which defend Jordan Root, wanting to protect his reputation, for fear that people come to wrong conclusions. You really need to read the whole article and documents for yourself.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
“The article documents statements pastors at The Village Church which defend Jordan Root, wanting to protect his reputation, for fear that people come to wrong conclusions.”
This is all too common. In discussing child abuse with an elder at my former church, he made it clear that if a church member suspected any type of child abuse by another church member, the elders would want the reporting member to share the information with the elders first so that the elders could determine IF further actions were necessary. The elders were concerned that a false accusation could be harmful to a man. I just sat there in astonishment that the first concern was for the possible abuser and not for the abused. I was told that elders had a responsibility to all members eaually. That was their excuse, anyway, for wanting to vet a possible child abuse situation. They didn’t have a clue that they were not qualified to vet such a situation. I was shocked.
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I really admire her for all the steps she’s taken; seeking trusted outside counsel, getting her marriage annulled, firmly withdrawing from membership (while she was not under discipline–which should be allowed even by their own rules), telling them clearly that their approach has not cared for her, and making plans to leave the area. Well done! I hope as she continues to firmly tell them to leave her alone she can get clear of them.
And this campus pastor: “Have we tried to help push her under our care?” Ugh! How much that unguarded wording reveals about the true mindset.
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@Bridget “I just sat there in astonishment that the first concern was for the possible abuser and not for the abused.”
That’s how the whole set of TVC documents comes across to me. It’s incredible–after everything Karen’s been through, after the unspeakable things Jordan has done–their bottom line is that he’s doing it right because he submitted to their leadership, and she needs to be disciplined because she’s acting to protect herself and alert parents to the possibility of worse revelations to come, without checking with them first and submitting to the way they want it done. After everything Karen’s been through, at this painful moment, this is when they think the issue they need to address is her conformity to the membership/covenant rules.
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That quote really got to me – – and that Karen was mistakenly added to that e-mail. What a nice oopsy so we can all see the true heart of the leadership. It reveals they have an entitlement of ownership of members, not of care for members. You don’t “push” someone under care. Good grief.
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“Have we tried to help push her under our care?”
“Did youz guys apply da correct amount a pressah to encourage huh to go in da desiahed dyrection?”
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I’ve communicated with quite a few wives of pedophiles. It is an enormous shock to come to grips with that horrific reality. I am amazed at how clear-sighted and balanced Karen is in her responses, in protecting and defending victims, in protecting herself, and confronting bad church leadership who is blameshifting and putting her in discipline, NOT her ex husband. She is a true advocate, a hero for speaking out. I am so impressed with Karen. She is so courageous to speak out against such a huge church group.
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“We have been perplexed by your decision to file for an annulment of your marriage without first abiding by your covenant obligations to submit to the care and direction of your elders. ”
Translation: We Control You!
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@bendeni
“And this campus pastor: “Have we tried to help push her under our care?” ”
One wonders if they would then hold her under until she stops breathing.
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And they are rejecting her withdrawal from membership. She was a member in good standing until they read her withdrawal from membership letter in which she stated that she was getting an annulment.
Here is a screenshot from The Village Church on marriage:
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When I commented in the other thread about how odd it was that the elders didn’t even appear to acknowledge the reality that viewing of child porn might be interpreted as adultery, refugee made a comment about how the elders might want to be the ones to drive the divorce process.
Cynical, but really, if they can’t acknowledge the reality of adultery here….all I can say is well said, refugee.
Hopefully the church will indeed do right and make sure the man loses his counseling license and helps him navigate what he ought to do in light of the apparent “out of nation” nature of his crime, but I’m not holding my breath in light of the big, obvious thing they’re missing.
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Julie Anne, Dee has a good analysis of the details coming out Monday, and apparently more stuff “throughout the week.” The Dallas Morning News has been stringing them along on publishing this as a *front page story* for over a month. It’s been delayed over and over and over again, until they dropped it. Hopefully, some mainstream news sources will pick this up, and more people will be exposed to the controlling nature of these church membership covenants, and the rotten fruit of “but he repented, so he’s fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine now!”
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Sadly, this does not surprise me. There must be some movers and shakers at TVC who have connections with the media.
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As shocked as I am I am not totally surprised. However, I am still angry at how the church continues to interfere with the law on matters regarding sexual predators and abuse! I posted my feelings in a comment on The Village facebook page under the top post, we shall see how long it lasts there.
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“you are prohibited from voluntarily resigning membership while subject to the formal disciplinary process”
To which I suggest Matthew 10:14 – “shake the dust off you feet when you leave”
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I also posted on Matt Chandlers facebook page, I suggest everyone do the same!
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Sarah, I got a screen shot of your comment. Thanks for letting me know.
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Ever notice how the Wizard of Oz (Chandler or Mahaney) is never in these incriminating email chains? Gotta protect the man.
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Oh, it gets better. Over in the thread at Wartburg Watch, the Dallas Morning News was going to run a big expose on this, but somebody made a phone call, money talked, and the story was killed a few days before it was to run.
Dallas Morning News: BOUGHT AND PAID FOR.
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@Larry:
Two words: PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
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When are the people in this church authority movement going to figure out that you don’t have to obey their bidding in every matter of your life? They have taken a real problem (a lack of church discipline) and transformed it into the church being the supreme authority over anything you decide to do in your life, without one being able to go left or right without their permission, when they are interested enough. The passage in Corinthians is clearly not in context of a divorce, and pedophilia falls into the realm of sexual immorality grounds for divorce. Listen to Jesus and not the Village Church.
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Julie Anne, I think with the media there are a lot of movers and shakers on both sides- “something stinks in Denmark”. I cannot put my finger on it, but there must be a reason why??? none of this (and other sexual abuse allegations in the Protestant world) is getting out into the main press.
Bravo to you Karen for standing on the truth! We all applaud you and will be praying for you!
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HUG said:
Yes, and I tweeted this, but have yet to get a response from Dallas Morning News.
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Karen is a very brave woman and owes nothing to this so-called church or anyone in it. Jordan not only should be expelled from the church, if it is indeed one in God’s eyes, he should be finding himself incarcerated. Child Porn is a crime; observing it, creating it or distributing it. It never ceases to amaze me that such a man would be held in high esteem within the church by merely saying, “whoops, sorry”, (sorry he got caught) but his wife is considered under disciplinary action for leaving and having her marriage annulled from this person without permission. The number of his counseling license should become the number he wears on his orange suit in prison.
The stand the pastor and elders have taken in this makes me sick.
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Ugh–looking at his interaction with children, I am guessing that this is not just about dirty pictures on the internet. It’s the rare young man who will seek work at a daycare center,and it appears that he also spent a few years working with kids in Dallas before getting his counseling license. Dunno if this was for getting a master’s degree, or what, but then he goes….again….into children’s counseling.
Which is to say that I think this thing is going to blow wide open in the next week or so, and that it’s not the church that is telling the DMN not to publish right now, and that Chandler isn’t talking to the public for that exact same reason. For the sake of all those kids he worked with, I hope I’m dead wrong, but my gut says….ick.
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Pedophiles put themselves in situations where the targets of choice will be easy to gain access to. I have read about an almost 60 year old man who began his crimes against children at age 14, went out of his way to volunteer to babysit people’s children 3 hours drive away, but didn’t want to spend time with his own 11 children and their children. He was a minister and many in his congregation still do not believe he could do it and some look down on his former wife for divorcing him. He now resides in a prison cell where he belongs. He has admitted to his crimes, but doesn’t think they were crimes.
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No, in his twisted mind, he probably says he was loving them. I’ve heard this before from the mouth of a pedophile.
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Exactly!!
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“We don’t need to wonder why people are leaving churches. This is a prime example of why I will never, ever, ever sign a dotted line to become a member of a church.”
EXACTLY.
Perhaps Baptists have forgotten that owning other human beings is illegal? Or is this just another screaming example of how so many churches still view women as beneath men? Their offer to “love on her” and such a push to “care for her” really translates to “we want to brow beat you until you promise to keep your mouth shut and let this stay swept under our pretty little facade of Christianity”
KEEP SPEAKING THE TRUTH.
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Ever notice how the Wizard of Oz (Chandler or Mahaney) is never in these incriminating email chains?
Yep! I noticed.
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The Village Church has WRONG DOCTRINE on divorce.
They need to recalibrate their doctrine on divorce.
I’ll make it easy for them.
Village Church leaders: I suggest you start recalibrating your ideas on what the Bible says about divorce by reading “Not Under Bondage”, which has been commended by William Heth, David Clyde Jones, and other eminent conservative theologians. See William Heth’s review here:
http://notunderbondage.com/blogs/news/15179917-william-heth-author-of-jesus-and-divorce-how-my-mind-has-changed
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I agree with Bike Bubba. With this man’s history of working and volunteering with children, there is virtually no chance he hasn’t molested some. If he were really trying to refrain from acting on his attraction to children, he would have avoided being around them.
But hey, he told the pastors he didn’t and his word is good enough for them!
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from The Village Church’s bylaws, which JA gave us a screen shot of, above —
http://thevillagechurch.net/about/beliefs/bylaws/
Section 10.2 RESPONSIBILITIES
…. In signing the Membership Covenant, Members attest that they have completed the membership process as instructed, read the Membership Covenant, and are willingly covenanting:
[the fifth bullet point, second sub-point, reads as follows:]
“Each Member will seek to preserve the gift of marriage and agree to walk through the steps of marriage reconciliation at The Village Church before pursuing divorce from his or her spouse (Matthew 19:1-12; Mark 10:1-12; Luke 16:18; 1 Corinthians 7:10- 11; for the role of the church in the process of divorce, see Paul’s concern for the resolution of legal matters within the assembly of the church in 1 Corinthians 6).”
They have quoted ONLY the texts about divorce which suit their idolatrous view of marriage.
They have ignored the other texts about divorce, namely:
1 Corinthians 7:12-15. Most especially verse 15 which gives grounds for divorce for ALL the biblical reasons: abuse, adultery and desertion. And pedophilia certainly qualifies as adultery, AND as abuse — it is abuse of the marital vows! it is abuse of the innocent spouse — ask any woman who is or was married to a porn addict or pedophile and they’ll tell you how deeply it hurt them!
Exodus 21:10-11
Deuteronomy 21:1-14
And in citing 1 Corinthians 6 (‘do not take a brother to court’) they show how ignorant they are about the nature and practice of divorce in the first century AD. The majority of divorces in the Greco-Roman world did not require any court procedure. If there was a dispute about the return of dowry, that might necessitate a court procedure. But divorce took place simply by one spouse deciding to end the marriage and no longer consider the other partner as their spouse. In other words, it was much like cohabition break-ups today. See David Instone-Brewer’s scholarly book “Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible.”
Jews were the only people in the Greco-Roman world of the first century for whom a legal procedure was fairly common in divorce. A Jewish man might divorce his wife simply by issuing her a certificate of divorce (no court need be involved) and so long as the certificate was properly drawn up, all Jewish authorities, of whatever rabbinic school, recognised it as a valid divorce.
But if a Jewish man wanted to keep the dowry rather than return it to the wife when he divorced her, he had to get a Hillelite court to hear the divorce case and grant it on grounds of his wife’s adultery. Then he was allowed to keep the dowry. So court procedures (not secular court, but religious court, a religious court that was dominated by Hillelites rather than Shammaites) was necessary in such cases.
Furthermore, a Jewish women could apply to a religious court to get it to order her husband to issue her a certificate of divorce. (See Instone-Brewer’s book as before.)
So Village Church are ignorant.
let them please humble themselves and learn, rather than dig their heads in the sand!
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The other scripture that Village Church have utterly IGNORED in this case is 1 Corinthians 5:
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13 ESV)
There is EVERY likelihood that Jordan Root’s repentance is instrumental and manipulative, not genuine. No serial pedophile or man who has long been addicted to child porn can be trusted to state the truth. Even if his repentance is genuine it will do him NO spiritual harm to be put out of the church, where he will be handed over to Satan. If Village Church leaders had sufficient trust in God, rather than being proud of themelves as Super-Pastors and Super-Elders, they would trust that God could deal very well with Jordan Root while he is handed over to Satan:
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:5)
Let Village Church OBEY ITS OWN BYLAWS and stop molly-codddling Jordan Root!
(and btw, what an icky surname, how triggering in this context!)
Village Church, let me remind you of Bylaws, 10.2 —
In signing the Membership Covenant, members willing covenant
[first bullet point]
to submit to the authority of the Scriptures as the final arbiter on all issues.
So, submit to Scripture and put Jordan Root out of the church!
And stop your ludicrous disciplining of Karen Hinkley! And issue her a full apology.
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Another one of The Village Church’s bylaws that its leaders need to adhere to:
Bylaws section 10.2, sixth bullet point:
to refrain from such activities that the Scriptures would deem foolish (Romans 14:14-23).
They are being downright FOOLISH in refusing to accept Karen Hinkley’s resignation and instead puting her under church discipline.
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Village Church are beyond ignorant. They are complicit in the the utter devastation every pedophile visits on his victims, both primary (his child targets) and secondary (his wife, children and probably others). In persecuting Karen Hinkley Village Church are, to my way of thinking, a very synagogue of satan.
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I have just put all these comments of mine onto the Village Church FB page, and taken a screen shot of them as they show on ‘posts to page.’
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But Barbara, you are seeming to suppose that Village Church gives a care about actually ABIDING by their own bylaws. No, no. Bylaws, and Scripture, exist only to control the laity, never to restrain the entitled and empowered, i.e. the clergy and their elders/enforcers.
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I believe Karen is being treated this way because of this church’s view on marriage. They are Complementarians in the strict sense. Therefore, a man such as the pedophile husband, because he has repented in their eyes, has more rights than Karen. His repentance, whatever that entails, qualifies him to fulfill his headship role in authority over his wife. She is not playing the submissive role here, but being a naughty girl. Oh, and I bet they would have no problem tossing that verse in Karen’s direction: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.” Karen incited their anger by speaking out. Their attitude: Hush woman. You are to learn form this experience by being quiet and submissive. Blowing the whistle on your husband’s proclivities warrants swift discipline. Repent, or we have no other choice than to hold you to our strict guidelines. Come back to the fold where we can keep an eye on you and all will be well. I can hear the growling of the wolves in the background.
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@Brenda:
Pedo is MALE. (“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”)
Wife is FEMALE. (“WOMAN, SUBMIT!”)
No further explanation needed.
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“Village Church are beyond ignorant. They are complicit in the the utter devastation every pedophile visits on his victims, both primary (his child targets) and secondary (his wife, children and probably others). In persecuting Karen Hinkley Village Church are, to my way of thinking, a very synagogue of satan.”
^ YES — thank you Gary W!
Just when I thought I might been being a bit over the top, you chime in an allay my fears. . . Thank you so much.
They are complicit. No other word for it.
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Yes Barbary, and I would suggest that the full apology owed to Karen Hinkley will not be complete until she has been rendered full restitution–restitution in such form and measure as she might reasonably set.
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@BTDT:
“No more person — no more problem.”
— Josef Stalin
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Yikes! Make that Barbara, not Barbary.
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If (as reports have it) Village Church has at SOME campuses, or in SOME other marital situations, shown itself to be more advanced on the learning curve in the way it handles Domestic Abuse than some other churches are, they ought to have enough nous — and enough conscience! — to listen to the feedback we are giving them.
Are you listening, Village Church?
And folk at Village Church, if someone on your staff removes my ‘posts to page’ at your Facebook page, I have sent the same messsages to you as private messages on FB. So I’m reallly wanting you to read what I’m saying and heed it.
For the sake of the victims and survivors.
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Haha, Gary W! I have been called ‘barbarian’ (by kids when I was at primary school) but never ‘barbary’. 🙂
No offence taken — she’s right, mate! — as we say in Oz.
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Barbara, entre nous, you will probably have to define “nous” for the scholars at Village Church.
Plus, should any begin to refer to you as Barbary Barb, you will know that your efforts have not been without effect, or at least affect. Not that I’m advocating anything.
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I read The Village Church’s letter to Karen warning her to return under the care of her elders. This jumped out at me: “Should you choose not to return to The Village Church, we will move forward to the next step in the process of disciplining you as a member.” I wonder what that next step will be. To me, this is an example of just how controlling these elders are. They refuse to accept her membership resignation because if they did, they wouldn’t have the glorious privilege of disciplining her. That is more important to them, than extending grace and love toward a child of God who has been deeply hurt and is in pain. Instead, they heap on more pain by warning that they will have to discipline her. Oh, and the last line: “The last thing we want is to lose the privilege of caring for you in this difficult season.” Yeah, right. The last thing they want is to lose control of a member who can cause damage to the image of their church.
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Ok, Darlene, you just got me roused up again. Off to Tweet and let off some steam.
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“Pedo is MALE (PENETRATE! CONQUER! COLONIZE! PLANT!)
Wife is FEMALE. (“WOMAN SUBMIT!”)”
HUG: Right you are!
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“[W]e will move forward to the next step in the process of disciplining you as a member.
Yeah, right. What are they going to do when they are defied. Issue an arrest warrant? Impose a jail sentence? Send the Sheriff out to repossess all her furniture?
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“What are they going to do when they are defied. Issue an arrest warrant? Impose a jail sentence? Send the Sheriff out to repossess all her furniture?”
Hmm. let’s see.
They could publish an open letter to the entire body of Christ telling them that since she has obstinately defied their discipline, she must not be admitted into membership in any other church body. (Try making that stick! Some church will be happy to pick her up, even if they only do so because they think by doing so they’ll be able to preen *themselves* on their Super-Pastor role . . .)
Or they could sue her and Amy Smith for defaming them. Maybe they need to take a hint from Julie Anne’s ex pastor Chuck on that one, before they embark on it. And consult their church coffers to see if they can afford it!
Maybe they could send her and Amy boxes of Chitos (a la TWW) with a ‘good riddance’ note.
Or, let’s bring back the medieaval stocks!
But not to put Karen and Amy in . . .
oopps I’m getting carried away. Better stop now.
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“But Barbara, you are seeming to suppose that Village Church gives a care about actually ABIDING by their own bylaws. No, no. Bylaws, and Scripture, exist only to control the laity, never to restrain the entitled and empowered, i.e. the clergy and their elders/enforcers.”
Actually, I’m not supposing that, though I don’t say *you* are necessarily wrong to think that way about TVC, Gary.
I am actually hoping that they DO have their conscience pricked and realise that they are at fault according to their own bylaws, and that their docrtine of divorce needs to be changed.
We have heard reports that at least some people at TVC are awakening to Domestic Abuse, so I am hoping that the campus which has so egregiously dealt with Karen Hinkley will be brought to book by folk at other Village campuses.
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I have not minced words on Twitter today and tagged Chandler and TVC. I hope they feel the heat. This is so wrong.
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Darlene D G said,
I was wondering about that too.
In the NT, Paul tells a church to temporarily kick out a misbehaving guy. Karen resigned her membership, and she wants to be kicked out, but this church keeps following her around.
I also wonder how they can discipline her.
Centuries ago, church people would put people in stockades, or drown them in lakes (if they thought they were practicing witch craft).
In the USA in 2015, I guess they could bar Karen from their in-church coffee house. No church coffee for you, Karen!
Maybe they could make her show up and give the felt-cloth- doll on felt-cloth board presentations of biblical stories for children during Sunday School for the kids for several months. That might show her. (That would be enough to drive me nuts.)
I noted at the other blog, the way this church keeps tracking this lady down, and even by text over her cell phone, is just so creepy and stalkerish. The preacher was telling her he asked a mutual friend of theirs about her where-abouts, so he’s keeping creepy tabs on her.
The texts from the preacher are filled with fake-sounding Christianese terminology I find grating, cheesy, and weird, and which sound manipulative and insincere too (but terms which probably would not have bothered me as much in the past when I was at 100% Christian).
That they think they can dictate how or if she divorces her husband (and especially over his pedo habits) is also pretty obnoxious. She is an adult. Let her decide for herself what she wants to do about her marriage.
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When I wrote,
” The preacher was telling her he asked a mutual friend of theirs about her where-abouts, so he’s keeping creepy tabs on her.”
I also wanted to say, not only is he keeping tabs on her (creepy!) but he was letting her KNOW in that one text to her that he and the church were keeping tabs on her, and IMO, that is a subtle threat to her.
Maybe the preacher didn’t mean anything by any of that and it was a perfectly innocent remark on his part, but it struck me as a subtle threat or intimidation tactic of some kind.
I could just imagine how I would feel if I got a message from a person at a church I had quit months before that sent me messages that said, “A mutual friend of ours lets us know your where abouts” – and sending me that after I had told them to go away.
That sounds like those threats you hear from Mafia guys and thugs in movies, “We know where you live. We know where your kids go to school.”
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@Daisy,
They may or may not actually know where Ms. Hinkley is. It may be that they are employing a deception, not just in an attempt to intimidate, but with a view toward engendering uncertainty and distrust in Ms. Hinkley. If she can be persuaded that one of her friends has betrayed her, and if Village Church will not say which one, a deep wedge of uncertainty and distrust will have been driven between Ms. Hinkley and ALL her friends. Village Church will have succeeded in isolating her. This is one of the things entitled, power hungry controllers do.
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Daisy,
“A mutual friend of ours lets us know your where abouts”
How else can you see this but creepy, stalking, triggering (for me) or plain out wrong? Karen has told you that she no longer desires membership with your organization: NOW LEAVE HER BE. That was the last text that I sent to the former husband when he kept up his attempts to contact me. LEAVE ME BE. I changed my phone number and it has been so quiet and peace floods me from the inside out. Karen deserves the same.
Barb Roberts, St Lucy would be so proud of your zeal. Let the sword wield on.
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I find it laughable that they could refuse to accept a resignation from Church membership. I am speechless as to the rest of it. But I would have simply given them a particular sign with my hand and told them to find a cliff with a long drop to jump off of
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If you haven’t read Mary DeMuth’s Washington Post article, you should! Wise words. wapo.st/1Ajx3Vh
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The number one priority of these church institutions is self-preservation at any cost. That is why they need to control their members. One of my brothers attends a similar type church. When his son-in-law left his daughter (after only a year of marriage and many affairs) my brother, his other daughters and church members continued to pursue her ex for one year for church discipline. The ex finally had to threaten a restraining order against my brother and the church. Now this ex is a total ass, but why try to drag him back for a year to be “disciplined”? He couldn’t have cared less and it only caused more grief to my niece. My niece was suppose to explain the situation to the whole church, but somehow got out of it (my brother is high up in the church). A woman from a less powerful family would have had to be re-traumitized by explaining the situation in front of the whole church. I hate seeing my brother’s family sucked into such a high control church. His whole family drinks the kool-aid.
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(Have not read the entire thread yet as of this morning, but felt compelled to respond to something. Barbara Roberts, thank you for your brief analysis of that part of the bylaws, and for supplying scriptures to study.
I was a little taken aback, however, by your comment about the guy’s name — a joke that I didn’t “get”, perhaps? I know a very nice family by that name.)
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Gary W: said: “[W]e will move forward to the next step in the process of disciplining you as a member.
Yeah, right. What are they going to do when they are defied. Issue an arrest warrant? Impose a jail sentence? Send the Sheriff out to repossess all her furniture?
No, they’ll simply try to ensure that she never darkens the door of a church building again without their explicit permission and control of the situation.
Is there any wonder that so many are choosing to be Dones? I’m sure this type of thing is part of that increase.
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I haven’t read Mary’s article yet, but just saw this on Twitter. Matt Redmond is great. He gets it. http://mattbredmond.com/2015/05/22/some-thoughts-on-what-is-happening-at-the-village-church/
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Daisy said: Maybe the preacher didn’t mean anything by any of that and it was a perfectly innocent remark on his part, but it struck me as a subtle threat or intimidation tactic of some kind.
It fits with what I’ve said elsewhere: Benevolent Dictator mentality. He would not see it as a threat at all, but as proof of his “watch care.” He is a shepherd, and she is a straying sheep, and he wants her to know he’s looking out for her, that there might be wolves out there, but he’s right there, with his staff, ready to defend her so soon as she comes running to him (perhaps with wolves in hot pursuit). Perhaps he even sees himself as the good shepherd, leaving the ninety-and-the-nine to seek the lost one.
It would never occur to him that she might perceive himself and the other leaders at TVC as the wolves, not the shepherds, due to their own words, attitudes, and actions.
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“The number one priority of these church institutions is self-preservation at any cost.”
Yes, in most instances this is true. However, in the present case, it may be that leadership’s lust for power and control, or maybe just their narcissistic rage at having been dissed, has blinded them to the fact that if they lose their “church” they lose their power. How could any rational person think that the the interests of self-preservation are served by taking up the cause of a pedophile while at the same time persecuting the wife he betrayed?
John Piper and the rest of the permanency-of-marriage crowd can be proud of what they have wrought.
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Matt Redmond said (at the link JA posted in her comment): 9. And it will happen again. And again and again. The dude-bro will get a pass and his wife will be expected to fall in line. This is exactly what happened with SGM. The wife was expected to stay with the pedophile husband and if they did not, the wife was disciplined. And it kept happening.
Was this a part of what went on at SGM? Somehow I missed it.
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at Amy Smith’s blog (where this story is documented in amazing detail – well done, Amy!) a commenter called kisekileia said:
“My understanding is that it is actually illegal in the U.S. for a church to refuse to accept a membership resignation, because of the constitutional right to freedom of association. I believe there have been cases along these lines with the Mormon church. Now, it’s possible that the judicial system would be biased against Karen since she is dealing with an evangelical church in Texas, but I think that with a good lawyer, it would be worth attempting to legally force the church to accept her resignation.”
Can any of you comment on this? Is it possible to get a secular court to force a church to accept your letter of resignation?
You couldn’t think this stuff up in a month of Sundays! Churches that refuse to accept a person’s resignation when that person is IN GOOD STANDING as Karen was when she wrote her letter of resignation — what a pack of galahs the Village leaders are to they think like that!
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Ann ^ you nailed it. The number one priority of these churches, institutions, money making businesses, is SELF PRESERVATION and they will do whatever it takes to maintain the sense of entitlement and control so many of them seem to feel. If you haven’t read Matt Chandler’s tweets in regard to this story I urge everyone to go check them out.
The Christianese and robotic garble is so utterly predictable that it is insulting to anyone who is not, or no longer, brainwashed and/or indoctrinated by these types. In a nutshell… he resorts to a whole lot of “you don’t know the whole story…” and of course, for legal reasons he cannot divulge anything more. Although there may be legitimate legal reasons to stay silent he could just as easily say he nor TVC have comments at this time instead of “you don’t know the whole story” which seems to imply if those questioning him knew what he knows they would not be standing in support of Ms. Hinkley. His predictable response is nothing more than a manipulation tactic used by anyone wishing to maintain control, keep people quiet, and save face of their multi-million dollar multiple campus industry.
I could not care any less if a pastor has his name in neon lights or is some well-known author/evangelist/speaker or wannabe politician, when he defends a potential child abuser and seeks to “discipline” a victim true colors are shown and people have to keep speaking up. Furthermore, he and every other pastor and elder who is continuing to engage in the harassment and attempts to emotionally and psychologically terrorize (texts indicating they are keeping tabs of her whereabouts) this woman should be examined as accessories to the potential further endangerment of minors.
Every single haughty attitude involved in this despicable chain of events is a slap in the face to anyone who has experienced childhood sexual abuse or sexual trauma of any kind.
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Why isn’t Jordan in “church discipline” when Matt Chandler states in this interview from Questions & Ethics Live at SBC 2014 that porn is a discipline issue?
Chandler says:
“So, on that level, I want to make our people, male or female, that what’s going on in pornography is the dehumanization of people and a perversion of a good beautiful gift that God gave us and then the counsel we have given wives whose husbands tend to be addictive to pornography is let the church be the church and you partner with us so we are going to engage your husband on this issue, we are going to kind of start walking through the process of discipline. We are going to try to help him, we are going to walk along side of him. You walk along side of us as we walk along side of him and so, I feel for wives who are in situations where the church will not engage a husband over such activity and will not get in the mix, not in a harsh way, and that’s why for us covenant membership is such a big deal. It’s not you just walking down the isle and wanting to join, we are saying, here’s what the Word of God says, you should expect of us as elders.”
http://erlc.com/article/transcript-questions-ethics-live-at-sbc-2014
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My apologies, Refugee, about my comment on Jordan’s surname. Please forgive me for any offence caused.
Maybe it’s because I’m an Aussie. That word can have a pretty vulgar meaning here, and it somewhat triggered me in the context of thinking about Jordan’s particular crimes. . .
I’m a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, so that’s what it took me back to …
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Porn is not illegal, child porn is. So, if he says porn is a discipline issue, why are they letting child porn go? This is all kinds of messed up. Thanks for finding this, Diane.
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Is it possible to get a secular court to force a church to accept your letter of resignation?
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No, but it is possible to bring an action in court against the church for intrusion on seclusion, public disclosure of private facts, defamation, etc. if they announce your sins to the body after you’ve given notice of your resignation.
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Thanks, Barbara, I appreciate your response.
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One comment allegedly from Josh Duggar that I am not approving. Good grief, it’s like Jerry Springer behind the scenes here.
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To Barbara:
I consulted a lawyer before requesting membership resignation from a southern baptist church several years ago. At the lawyer’s advice, I obtained a copy of the church bylaws, which were accessible through the church library to be sure there was no fine print we unknowingly agreed to when joining. Without going into all the ugly detail of our entire ordeal, our former church did nothing at all in the way of following their own bylaws in regard to our membership removal. The various abuse, name-calling, and gossip that prompted our resignation increased and when I tried to again address it, this time as a non-member, I was met with the explicit statement that “because we left the fellowship, they owed us no loyalty” — which sounded a whole lot like a playground bully saying nanny nanny boo boo we can say whatever we want. Anyway, to answer your question… at least according to the lawyer I consulted, there is legal recourse one can take if a church refuses to accept a member’s resignation. However, also according to the same lawyer, when a person joins a church whether it be through membership classes as done in Acts 29 churches, or by walking the aisle and signing a paper, or being baptized there are specific words used to imply adherence to a contractual relationship between member and church- though most call it a “covenant” because that’s sounds way more spiritual. From what I understand, the long and short of it is yes there is legal recourse one can take, but in the case of TVC they will most likely hold tightly to that one little clause about the sanctity of marriage in their contract, and my guess is it’s all just to spite Ms. Hinkley at this point. Just another way to say nanny boo boo. Bullies.
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Duh!!! I’m thinking with this news about Josh Duggar, he would want to keep his opinions to himself. Skeletons are falling out of that closet all over the place.
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@ Brenda R.
I’m guessing JA was implying it wasn’t actually from Josh, but a fake Josh.
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The e-mail address looked legit, but the content was definitely suspect.
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“Porn is not illegal, child porn is. So, if he says porn is a discipline issue, why are they letting child porn go?”
TVC should have not written that he was not in “formal” church discipline. That confuses things. Is there is a distinction between formal and non formal church discipline that we peasants do not know about?
There are evidently three types of church discipline; formative, restorative and punitive, according to Matt Chandler. Root is in the restorative phase if you read the link below and Chandler’s own words about what restorative discipline means. His wife, would be in the punitive stage. So Root really IS in church discipline. Why did they not want to admit that? Church discipline does not just mean excommunication.
Logic goes out the window when you live your life making up stuff as you go along.
http://thevillagechurch.net/resources/sermons/detail/disciplining-the-disciple/
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“TLC Pulls ’19 Kids and Counting’ in Wake of Josh Duggar Molestation Admission”
Thank you, TLC. It was the right thing to do.
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“Good grief, it’s like Jerry Springer behind the scenes here.”
🙂
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@Brenda R
“Skeletons are falling out of that closet all over the place.”
I was reading a Daily Mail article this morning about all the people who were supporting Josh on his Instagram account. The gist was, “we all have skeletons in our closet.” Many of the comments on DM amounted to “No skeletons like that!”
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Regarding the right to withdraw church membership, here is a .pdf that asserts that there is a First Amendment right to terminate church membership, at least prior to the initiation of formal discipline proceedings: http://tinyurl.com/ko6wfdw
Who knows how reliable this stuff you find on the Internet is, but the .pdf article cites the case of Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville, 775 P.2d 766, which can be found here: http://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/supreme-court/1989/10494.html
This case is only binding in Oklahoma, and the principles stated therein may have been revised by later Oklahoma cases. Still, as far as it goes, maybe the thing that matters most is whether the resignation takes place before or after the commencement of formal disciplinary proceedings.
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Once you terminate, they may no longer discuss your “sins” before the group according to that case.
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Punitive church discipline-when you decide you are no longer going to be a member of TVC and leave without their permission:
“An then here’s the heartbreaking part. Dallas is so rich in churches that most people, when confronted about their sin, simply go, “Okay, cool.” And they just simply go to another church. Now when we learn of this, we usually call the other church. We’re not tattle tales. We’re trying to protect sheep. So we’ll simply call and go, “You need to bring them in. You need to have this conversation. Here are the discussions we’ve had, here’s when we met.” Whenever we confront people on this, we have them sign off on documents that say, “Here were the meetings I was in. Here is what I was told. I agree that the Scriptures say this. I was asked to do this, I have refused to do this and in refusing to do this, I know I’m being removed from fellowship.” And we have them sign it. I’ve never been so baffled as to be in those meetings. “Yeah, I know that. I know that the Bible teaches that what I’m doing is sinful and is going to lead to my death. I know that I’d be welcomed back here if I simply repent and do what God commanded me to do. I’ll initial that. I know that if I would simply do what God has commanded me to do, greater joy would be had. I know it’s better to submit to God than to get hooked by the devil with my flesh being enticed by the world. I’ll sign that.” It’s baffling, but that’s why Matthew 18 and a culture that says, “I love you too much to let you get hooked” is so important. Because once you get to punitive discipline, it gets really dark, muddy and convoluted.”
(From my above link)
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All, I would like to remind everyone of the other side of the coin: these guys believe the way they are acting here is Gospel.
To them, this is Christianity. Their exertion of power in this way is being faithful to the call of the Gospel. It is not just about power lust. It is literally living the faith they hold as being the only legitimate expression of Gospel truth. This is their doctrine being fleshed out. This is what they think it should look like….
That should keep us all up at night.
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I’m thinking with this news about Josh Duggar,
What? I missed something….
What news about Josh Duggar?
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@Diane
“Punitive church discipline-when you decide you are no longer going to be a member of TVC and leave without their permission:”
Awwwwe. Doesn’t that all sound so spirishual? It just gives me the gospel tingles. However, we see in how Karen’t situation played out that the real sin is not submitting to the pastors. That’s why Karen is under discipline and the pedophile isn’t. The devil is in the details of what they classify as “sin.” And TVC isn’t the only “church” that plays fast and loose like that.
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Well, Root isn’t under FORMAL church discipline, but according to the Chandler sermon I posted above, he fits the bill of being in restorative church discipline.
I want to know why TVC framed his claimed repentance, submitting to elders, killing his sin, putting to it to death, walking side by side with pastors and accountability men to kill the sin, blah blah and etc. (all which defines restorative church discipline according to Chandler’s own words), as NOT church discipline.
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I’m guessing JA was implying it wasn’t actually from Josh, but a fake Josh.
Truth Detector,
I know that. I would have to agree that it was a fake Josh. I didn’t see why the real one would even come here.
Brenda
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“TLC Pulls ’19 Kids and Counting’ in Wake of Josh Duggar Molestation Admission”
That is very, very good news. I have been asking myself throughout the day, “what about the victims”. Were they given any counseling or told to suck it up?
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BTDT,
We may all have skeletons in our closets, but praise God none of them had anything to do with endangering children. My brother was about the age of Josh Duggar when he violated my daughter and niece. Neither of them said a word until they were much older. I understand that being groomed to silence by the evil stepfather. If either my sister or I would have known, at least one of us would probably have been guilty of murder and proud to have protected our children from further assault. Now there is a skeleton that we don’t hide. It makes me sick that anyone is or was willing to keep this swept under the rug
Blessings, Brenda
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Oh…now I see. Karen didn’t stick around to save her husband and the elders are mad because that looks bad for their marriage is the gospel comp theology.
The wives are supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus and be a minister of the gospel to their husbands who are caught in sexual sin…along with remembering what sins YOU (wife) have committed. Wives are to pour themselves out for their husbands (like Jesus poured Himself out for us), sustain something that is very offensive (our sin was ugly and offensive to Jesus) and be a fountain of grace and forgiveness for the husband (because Jesus did that for us). I guess this is a taste of what kind of counseling one can expect to receive as a wife whose hub is caught in these kinds of sins/crimes.
http://www.minglingofsouls.com/videos/how-should-i-respond-to-my-spouses-sexual-sin/
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BIT,
To them, this is Christianity. That should keep us all up at night..
I’m not sure about keeping me up at night, but it does give me cause to pray for those within the walls of their establishment. The Dallas region also has a questionable seminary that puts out many preachers, teachers and counselors. They have refused to take questionable books from their curriculum and library not only condoning not calling the police in crime situations, but bring it before the church for resolution. It is indeed twisted and a perversion of the gospel.
Brenda
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Diane – You now have an official title of SSB Sleuth. Off to Twitter I go to let off more steam. I’m telling you guys . . .ugh!
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@Brenda:
And to those on the outside, this is (also) Christianity.
Ever heard of the Yiddish phrase “Shanda fur die Goyim”?
Or the original meaning of “Taking the LORD’s Name in vain”?
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Diane,
I tried to listen to that video, but it was making me physically ill to hear the words coming out of her mouth. Sin leveling at its finest. Chalk one up for the marriage permanence people. I’m sure they are proud of that one.
Brenda
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“The wives are supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus and be a minister of the gospel to their husbands who are caught in sexual sin…along with remembering what sins YOU (wife) have committed.”
That’s just sin-leveling.
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Ha! Brenda and I posted the same thoughts at the exact same time.
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She is drinking the koolaid and look at Chandler sitting there and nodding in agreement. The focus gets put in the wife, for crying out loud!!!
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