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Some Pastors Think They Get to Control the Details of Your Lives, Even the Colors of Clothes You Wear

Julie Anne

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Pastors who use their assumed position of authority to control personal lives.

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for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account.

Hebrews 13:17

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This is finals week at school, so in the interest of time, I’m going to resurrect an old post from March of 2012, plus add a little more editorial comment. The following article was written in the midst of the $500,000 defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor, Chuck O’Neal and Beaverton Grace Bible Church, against four others and me (including my adult daughter). After I spoke out publicly against Chuck O’Neal on Google reviews, he was able to get my negative reviews removed. I then started a blog, hoping to find a place where he couldn’t take away my voice.

Within a week of starting the blog, I was sued along with 4 others. The blog was a big issue for him because he couldn’t control me or my words. I dared to publicly say something about this man and he tried to shut me down by using the lawsuit. I think he thought that the lawsuit would shut me up. It didn’t. I continued to blog about my experience at his church during the lawsuit (with permission from my attorney.) He lost the court case and I’m still talking about him from time to time because he represents so many others who abuse their assumed position of authority in their churches.  Thanks, Chuck O’Neal for giving me the platform, for bringing media attention to the case, and allowing others to identify spiritual abuse they may have experienced so they can begin their recovery process.

This post was written during the lawsuit when I was stewing about the various things that left me wondering, “what was THAT all about?”  You see, when you are in the midst of an abusive or cult-like church, your brain can play tricks with you. Your mind tells you that this pastor obviously is a godly man because he’s a pastor, right? I mean, who would be in a pastoral position without wanting to be godly and lead the congregation appropriately?  Well, some don’t have right motives. They may have some appearances of right motives, but beneath the facade, they are controlling and abusive, and can actually harm or destroy someone’s faith.

Some are in the pastorate because they relish their position of authority. They like having the seniority, the clout, the respect of a whole congregation. They like that people are hanging on to their words. They like that they have power and influence over people and some pastors, take that power and influence beyond the scope of a pastor’s job. That is what this post about – a man who used his position of authority and influence to try to convince his congregants of stupid rules that have nothing – I mean zilch –  to do with the Bible.

Note: The following article originally appeared here.

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You Can’t Make This Stuff Up, Part 1

I remember something that was taught. I think it was said at the ladies retreat and/or perhaps on a Wednesday night meeting, but probably not on Sunday (because Sunday’s messages were recorded???).

Anyway, the topic was about men/boys wearing the color pink. We were told that pink was a “feminine” color and men/boys ought not to be wearing those colors.

I don’t ever recall reading anything of the sort in the Bible. Anywhere. I couldn’t even make up something like that. What in the world does a man wearing pink have to do with the love of Christ and sharing the Gospel? Nothing. It’s extra made-up nonsense.

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You can buy this shirt from Zazzle for $18.95.
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After the ladies retreat, I remember looking through my son’s drawer and seeing a pink shirt. This particular son is a redhead with an angelic white porcelain face. He looks amazing in pink. I want to squeeze him when I see how cute he looks in that color. The pink against his cheeks and red hair was a beautiful sight to his mama’s eyes. There was no way I was going to throw that shirt away. He may have worn that shirt the following Sunday and probably other Sundays as well. I wonder how many people noticed my boy wearing pink?

Does this man look feminine? I think not.

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Tommy Hilfiger Classic Polo Shirt  Pink $54.99 (sold out)
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For further reading on fashionable dressing for men, check out this article  Can men wear pink?  Decide for yourself if pink is acceptable for your man or men (if you have many sons as I do).
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Ok, back to 2014 again. Can you imagine what this kind of teaching, adding extra rules to Christianity, can do? If you have a pastor deciding for you what you can wear, what’s next?  Will he be able to influence what job you take, what woman you marry, what food you can eat, what car you drive? Give me a break.This man put himself between his congregants and God by creating extra rules. He’ll have to answer to God for that.***

152 thoughts on “Some Pastors Think They Get to Control the Details of Your Lives, Even the Colors of Clothes You Wear”

  2. Julie, back in 1988, a house church leader in Boston, Ron Gholston, wrote a letter to two leaders of the Boston Church of Christ (which led the movement which eventually became the International Churches of Christ.) In the letter, he pointed out teachings which are similar to what you’re talking about in your blog entry. Although this letter was written over 25 years ago, and much has changed in the ICOC since, I have heard that much of the core teachings have not really changes. The quote from the letter is as follows:

    “The departure from Scripture is best summarized in two teachings which have been shared publicly (as well as privately) on numerous occasions here in Boston concerning discipling relationships. These two teachings are as follows” (1) “You are to submit to anything your discipler tells you to do, unless it violates Scripture or your conscience.” (2) “To not obey what your discipler asks you to do is equivalent to not obeying God.” Brothers, I want to “lay it out” (as we sometimes say in Boston): These two teachings are gross misunderstandings and perversions of the role of the human discipler in discipling relationships and go against and contradict the teaching, belief, and practice of the New Testament church. These two teachings go beyond the scope, realm, and authority of what Jesus taught fallible human beings area to have and what the first-century church and its leaders believed, taught and practiced.

    The Boston church is on record as believing, teaching, and practicing that the disciple “must” “submit to” and “obey” the human discipler in “matters of opinion” unless what is asked of him/her violates his/her conscience. The implications of this belief, teaching, and practice are astounding and deplorable. . . . [I]n thinking over these things I finally realized the implications of these two teachings Boston is advancing: The elders can tell a person to do anything they choose, and if it does not violate Scripture or conscience, a person is obligated to do it. For example, it does not violate Scripture to sell a house and give the proceeds to the church (in fact, some — though not all — Christians in the first century did sell property) nor would it violate conscience to sell a house, so if the elders told a person to sell their house, according to the doctrine (teaching) advanced by the Boston church, a couple would be obligated to sell their house or run the risk of being disobedient to the leaders of the church, which is equivalent to being disobedient to God (according to the teaching of the Boston church). Again, if a Christian wanted to move from Boston to New York and the elders of the church said, “No, we do not want you to make that move”, does continuing to live in Boston “violate Scripture”? No. Is living in Boston a violation of your conscience? No. Then according to the doctrine of the Boston church, A Christian who decided to go ahead and move to New York would be thought to be “rebellious”, an “unsubmissive heart”, and no longer considered to be a “good disciple”. That this is the thinking and belief of the leaders of the Boston church is undeniable. The question I raise to you is this: Is this doctrine from the New Testament or is this doctrine from “man” (the leaders of the Boston church)?”

    The full letter can be found here: http://www.reveal.org/library/stories/people/rgholston.html

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  5. It strikes me that when I’ve seen a pastor trying to regulate the minute details of our lives–say the time people made it a big deal that my family was late to Sunday School, or the time my wife was rebuked because our house with six children, three dogs, and a cat wasn’t perfectly clean–what was really going on was that the pastor was losing spiritual authority. You lead with the best you’ve got, so if someone is getting all bent out of shape over the color of your clothes, that’s really a confession on their part that they don’t have much spiritual to say to you.

    (I leave some room for talk about the basics of modesty, but even there I think you’ve got to be careful lest you simply preach cultural habits)

    Oh, and my pink shirt.

    http://bikebubba.blogspot.com/2012/09/real-men-wear-pink.html

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Do dictates on clothing lead to dictates on jobs, houses and other choices people make? I don’t know if there’s a cause and effect, but I do know that these things go hand-in-hand at a church in my town.

    The pastor who founded the church 30+ years ago is still at the helm, and the elders are elders for life. People in the church go to the elders for permission (although I think they call it guidance) on getting married, where to go to college, what career to pursue, whether to join the military, etc. Does this extend to clothing choices? I don’t know, but I do know that every man I’ve ever seen in their parking lot has a tie on and every woman is in a skirt or dress. I’ve never seen a man with an open collar nor a woman in slacks (let alone jeans) when driving by their church on the way to the one I attended for years.

    Our church and many others in town have taken in refugees (there’s no other word for it) from that church. Those who leave it are shunned by their former congregation, and have said repeatedly that they didn’t know what an oppressive place they were in until leaving and finding a church home where people are allowed to gather together in Christ without man-made rules.

    P.S. I rocked a pink button-down and a pink polo shirt back in college. Then again, they were both quite fashionable in the early 80s.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Julie Anne, wow! Thank you for bringing this old post up. Couldn’t be better timing for me. Thank you. Going to think and read more before/if I add any other comments. Simple, yet so deep. I am at a loss for words. Thank you for the courage to do what you have done and do. Hope your finals go well!

    Liked by 1 person

  12. I think technically it may be a dusty rose?…but yes, in the pink family definitely.

    Same shade he is wearing in my second link…evidently he likes the color and did not get the CON memo regarding its unsuitability for wearing by manly headships.

    Liked by 1 person

  16. Hey, Julie Anne, one of my sons played in a baseball tournament this year which was connected to breast cancer awareness. All players had to wear pink stockings/socks as part of the uniform. Some teams went out of their way to have pink uniforms and hats made for their team. Our team got some high quality socks, and they had the best socks in the tournament. We allowed our son to play. 😉

    Now, I’ve had my colors done, and pink isn’t one of them, so I don’t wear it. As for the guy in your post? I don’t think he looks feminine at all in pink. Preppy, maybe (which is actually worse, LOL), but not feminine.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Do gotta tell you though, 40 years ago when in a Navy hospital the nurses brought my baby boy in to me dressed in all pink clothing and a pink blanket. His newborn pictures were taken that way. I was not a happy mama.

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  19. Back in the day, all babies were dressed in pink. I have a picture of my one year old dad ( born in 1925) in a pink dress and bonnet. And despite this egregious sin, he did not grow up g*y!! 🙂 When sinful behavior is defined by the church leader’s personal likes and dislikes, that congregation is in trouble! Can we say Mark Driscoll?!

    Liked by 1 person

  20. Ann, I don’t think in 1925 “g*y” was really talked about, boys were boys, girls were girls, end of discussion. I’ve gone through an awful lot of historic villages. Most of the kids clothes seemed to be white. I get that I am making light of the pink thing, mostly because if someone needs that much control over people to tell them what colors to wear, they need to bring in the men with white coats and do a complete assessment.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Tim asks a great question about whether dictates in terms of clothing translate into dictates in other areas, like work, marriage, and the like. Maybe a question will answer that best; if elders depart from the Scriptures in communicating nonexistent requirements in one area, what’s to stop them from doing it in others?

    Or, put gently, “Stuff Fundies Like.” I consider myself a fundamentalist in the theological sense (inerrancy of Scripture, virgin birth, blood atonement, resurrection, 2nd coming) and cringe that for so many, it just means “rules” and silliness. But that said, as often as it does, it needs to be said.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. I think good ole Apostle Paul had it right when he said not to “go beyond that which is written.”

    The problem with so many self-anointed theologians in this area is that they develop a personal conviction or preference on a reading of a passage and make an application, no matter how ridiculous, and then proclaim their application as true for the entire church, going well beyond that which is written. This is what developing 3 sermons a week without trying to be repetitive so often does to these cats. “Gotta find something new, some timeless truth for today that I haven’t said before Oh yeah, pink shirts, the Bible speaks negatively about the effeminate, so let’s extrapolate a ban on pink shirts as “biblical”.”

    In my case, it was the King James Version and contemporary Christian music. The pastor would say that since God promised to preserve His Word, then we can logically deduce that the KJV is it and we don’t need another. And since we are supposed to sing hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts, then cut off that evil rock and roll beat from the devil.

    And now, within my own stinkin’ family even, its the quiverfull thing. Since kids are a blessing, then we are all obligated to have a gazillion, and God will take care of us with our own TLC show, jobs for right wing lobbyists, and a rental property fortune….or not. I swear I would run away if I could. But apparently I’m destined to drown in this stupidity.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Most of my examples here involve churches or preachers policing gender roles, they were just some of the first examples to come to mind, I didn’t mean to hone in on this issue alone.

    There was a video from about a year ago of a, I believe, IFB (Fundy Baptist) preacher telling parents to smack their son if he acted too effeminate, and to tell their daughters not to be too much into sports, girls should wear make up and dresses.

    –North Carolina Pastor Sean Harris: Parents Should ‘Punch’ Their Effeminate Children (AUDIO)–

    …a man identified as Harris is heard urging his congregation to attack their children if they appear to be exhibiting behavior outside of gender norms.

    (quotes by the preacher),
    “So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, ‘Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,…
    Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok?….

    And when your daughter starts acting too butch, you reign [sic] her in. And you say, ‘Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like… you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.'”

    I believe it was Owen Strachan of CBMW who a few years ago told parents not to let their sons play with dolls and/or who said some character or another on kid’s show “Sesame Street” was encouraging boys to act like girls.

    Yeah, after a quick check, I found a few blogs had covered it:
    “Leave Baby Bear and His Doll Alone” – on Patheos, from Christ and Pop Culture Blog
    and
    “Guys and Dolls: Exhibit B for the absurd legalism of gender roles” – from RHE

    A couple of days ago, David Platt was in some Christian papers for telling Christians they should give their lives over to God as a blank check, so God can and will send them to spread the Gospel in some land overseas.

    –Megachurch Pastor David Platt to Christians: Give God a ‘Blank Check’ With No Strings Attached for Missions– (this page is on The Christian Post site)

    Isn’t this last thing in particular up to the Holy Spirit? Shouldn’t these preachers not be pressuring people to sell their homes and move to “Exotic Foreign Land” to give the Gospel to the natives, and leave it up to the Holy Spirit to convict people to do that, if it is God’s choice for that person?

    I’ve never felt compelled to move to Africa or the Rain Forest and hand out Gospel tracts. More power to those folks who feel called to do that, but I resent preachers guilting me for not wanting to do it.

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  24. Back in the day, all babies were dressed in pink. I have a picture of my one year old dad ( born in 1925) in a pink dress and bonnet. And despite this egregious sin, he did not grow up g*y!!

    And 100 years ago, pink was considered a VERY manly-man’s color.

    Has anyone traced how and when blue came to equal male and pink = female?

    And pink (under the name “rose”) is one of the liturgical colors of my church. Isn’t used often, but it’s there.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. A couple of days ago, David Platt was in some Christian papers for telling Christians they should give their lives over to God as a blank check, so God can and will send them to spread the Gospel in some land overseas.

    Didn’t Marky-Mark say the same thing about Useless Singles? If they won’t marry and breed, their only Godly life is Missionaries to Darkest Africa and into the stewpot handing out Gospel tracts, Ooga Booga.

    Note that the MenaGAWD who demand you go overseas/into the stewpot as a missionary always stay in the States themselves? In their Furtick Mansions?

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  26. There was a video from about a year ago of a, I believe, IFB (Fundy Baptist) preacher telling parents to smack their son if he acted too effeminate…

    Outside of Christianese, isn’t this usually called “Beat the Fag out of the kid”?
    (And I know from experience that high school football jocks are only too happy to oblige on their own initiative.)

    Oh, he’s IFB. That explains everything.

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  27. @Larry:

    I swear I would run away if I could. But apparently I’m destined to drown in this stupidity.

    And sometimes the urge to choke the stupid out of them can just get overwhelming…

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  28. @BikeBubba:

    It strikes me that when I’ve seen a pastor trying to regulate the minute details of our lives … what was really going on was that the pastor was losing spiritual authority.

    More like the pastor was a F’in control freak.

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  29. @Headless

    I’ve always wondered why Platt’s “Radical” stuff was so easily swallowed. Be radical, sell your house and move to Africa. As for me and my buddy John Piper, we’ll keep our cushy upper middle class “ministries” and be radical that way.

    Really, cause it was so “radical” to live as a pastor of a megachurch in a wealthy Birmingham, AL neighborhood. I’m sure no aspiring seminarian ever had that on his “radical” wishlist.

    Now quit playing with your dolls boys and be manly men.

    GAG!

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  30. I reread the David Platt page I linked to (on The Christian Post).

    Towards the bottom, there was a paraphrase of Platt’s views where he said “not all are called to serve in Iran of course, but blah blah blah.”

    A lot of Christians do this. They will give brief lip service to something but spend 95% of the rest of the page arguing the opposite, and it drives me nuts.

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  31. Do dictates on clothing lead to dictates on jobs, houses and other choices people make? I don’t know if there’s a cause and effect, but I do know that these things go hand-in-hand at a church in my town.

    They sure go hand-in-hand at other cult-like churches I am familiar with, too. I remember the week or two before leaving BGBC, a mom was complaining to me that my former pastor was putting his nose in their family’s business about who their adult child should/should not “court.” I probably could come up with a list of more things he put his nose in if I thought about it. When a pastor feels the need to put his $.02 in the affairs of church members (without them asking for advice), and pretends he’s the Holy Spirit, there’s a big problem.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. HUG said,

    Didn’t Marky-Mark say the same thing about Useless Singles? If they won’t marry and breed, their only Godly life is Missionaries to Darkest Africa and into the stewpot handing out Gospel tracts, Ooga Booga.

    Note that the MenaGAWD who demand you go overseas/into the stewpot as a missionary always stay in the States themselves? In their Furtick Mansions?

    Yes, Mark Driscoll’s incorrect understanding of adult singleness is that there is NO EXCUSE to be single past your mid 20s or older.

    This is on his blog post called “Single Pastors.” I think that’s on The Resurgence blog. Here:
    Single Pastors? by Mark Driscoll
    *(Warning: that page is chock full of incorrect teaching about singleness and celibacy)*

    If you are single past 25 or 30, Driscoll believes you are expected of God to run off and risk your life giving the Gospel to natives in Foreign Land.

    I beg to differ. Where does the Bible teach that? (It does not, it’s a huge inference on his part).

    Where does the Bible say MARRIED MEN are exempt from risking their lives on the mission field?

    It does not. As a matter of fact, a two hour movie was made about a married Christian man who flew down to some Central/ South Amer. nation to be a missionary, and he was murdered by the natives. This guy’s son was a kid at the time of his murder, and the son later in life befriended the native man who killed his father. He’s been interviewed several times on TBN.

    Driscoll also believes sexual self control for singles past 25 is impossible. Many other preachers share that same view. They think God supernaturally blocks all sexual desire from older celibates, but God does not.

    But yes, Driscoll, like a lot of Christian lay persons and preachers, assume that adult singleness is an abnormality and very rare, and if you are, it’s because you must die spreading the Gospel over seas.

    They assume God expects all Christians to marry, and they in turn base that idea on the fact that in American culture most folks DID marry.

    Now today, though, for the first time, single adults now in greater number than married couples. Singles are now about 51 or 52% of the US population. So cannot I not speculate (to use the usual Christian logic) that it is God’s will for most adults to remain single?

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  33. *smacking forehead* I don’t know how I could’ve forgotten to post this in my first post. Talk about a preacher nit picking the lives of his church members and being a control freak and sticking his nose where it does not belong.

    This headline does not even cover it all. This preacher (has a church in Ohio and a TV show) also asked his male church congregants if he could look at their private parts.

    One article I read about this guy went on and on and on with the allegations. One article I saw had really good coverage of everything this guy is accused of doing, but I can’t recall which website it was.

    Televangelist pastor accused of forcing vasectomies and abortions on church members

    Former members of Grace Cathedral in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio have accused church leader and televangelist Ernest Angley of demanding they have abortions or vasectomies, and that he would both engage in and turn a blind eye to sexual abuse in the church.

    Over 20 former members of Angley’s congregation spoke with the Akron Beacon Journal in its six-part series on various allegations made against the 93-year-old preacher. Former members said he pushed vasectomies and abortions, and that he would personally examine “the genitals of the male parishioners before and after their [vasectomy] surgeries,” the Beacon Journal wrote.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. I realize this is a spiritual abuse site, but I have to mention there are fantastic pastors out there who love their congregations as fellow brothers and sisters. I’m thinking of one Orthodox Presbyterian Church pastor, early 50s in age, been with his flock for 20 years. He’s been a part of their lives as they married, had children, and now their children are having children. He has been known to wear a light link shirt with a darker pink tie in the pulpit, and a pink polo shirt for casual days.

    True, most of the time he is wearing a white shirt, black or gray sweater vest, or dark suit. The pink shirt…and the purple shirt…make people smile. Maybe because most of the time he is the one smiling at them. Lots of love in that church.

    Preaches some great sermons, too!

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  35. Meanwhile Miano posted a plea for funds to cover the rest of his financial year. Maybe we should take an offering for some pink shirts.

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  36. Julie Anne, did my comment concerning Archbishop Foley Beach inspire this post?

    Interestingly, bishops in our tradition are sometimes described as “purple shirts” because of their attire. I guess “fuchsia shirts” wouldn’t go over as well.

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  37. missdaisyflower, I read that Mark Driscoll post and am shaking my head in disbelief. There is so much I could say in reply; perhaps Julie Anne could do a post on this after she finishes her exams.

    It’s almost midnight on the East Coast, so I’ll comment on one statement before signing off.

    I have only known a few single men who were pastors, and the majority of them disqualified themselves morally.

    Really, Mark Driscoll? I’ve read numerous accounts of pastors and ministry leaders who have resigned or been fired for “moral failure” over the last several years. I invite others to correct me if I’m wrong, but with the notable exception of Bill Gothard most, if not all, were married at the time of their respective indiscretions.

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  38. @ singleman (Re: post of DECEMBER 8, 2014 @ 9:02 PM)

    I know. I think I gave a warning up above that Driscoll’s “Single Pastors?” page is jam packed with lots and lots of false or condescending views, teachings, and comments about adult singles, singleness, and the celibate lifestyle.
    Driscoll makes a lot of incorrect, unwarranted, huge assumptions about singleness on his “Single Pastors” page.

    Unfortunately, I’ve found that several (maybe not all, but several) of Driscoll’s claims about singles and celibacy on that page are very common among other (married) Christians, too.

    And you are correct. It’s funny Driscoll should say that he knows of too many single guys who would be disqualified from ministry for immorality (I assume he is implying sexual sin).

    When the fact is the majority of churches and denominations do not permit singles to serve as preachers to start with, so all the preachers you here about in the news, (and the majority of Christians in non-preacher roles), are caught in adultery or molesting children are married guys.

    You don’t often hear of UNmarried Christian men (or women) getting caught up in big sex scandals, especially the single Christian people who are famous or in prominent positions.

    This also touches on stereotypes of Christians about sexuality – Christians tend to assume that married people are as pure as the freshly driven snow, that married people never sexually sin, yet they assume that all unmarried Christian folk over 25 or so years of age have passionate, out of control, wild sex lives.

    I think the Christians who think these things about singles vs. married people think that a married guy must be having regular sex with his wife, so he’s not going to look at porn, or fondle kids, or have affairs – but we all know that’s not true.

    Almost every big sex scandal story I can think of to come out of Christian circles (famous preachers, etc) revolves around married guys.

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  39. P.S. ! singleman, you quoted Driscoll,
    “I have only known a few single men who were pastors, and the majority of them disqualified themselves morally.”

    Okay, but what of the MINORITY of single men he knows who did NOT “disqualify themselves morally,” what is his lame excuse for keeping THOSE single men out of the pulpit? He needs to explain that.

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  40. If you want to read more examples of preachers or churches that control every aspect of people’s lives, I’d definitely look at forums or blogs about Independent Fundamentalist Baptists.

    IFBs are very legalistic and have an opinion on everything.

    The preachers of IFB churches insist that almost everything is worldly and therefore sinful. They believe movies are sinful, TV is sinful, secular pop music, CCM. They rant and rave against women wearing pants and open toed shoes. Men aren’t supposed to let their hair touch the collar of their shirt.

    Some older church guy (maybe Pentecostal or IFB, I can’t remember) published a blog page several months ago, with, IIRC, a big photo on the page of a woman’s knees. He went on in his page about he is seeing so many women’s knees in churches now. He thinks it’s improper for women to show their knees. You can read his post here:
    –They’re Everywhere!!–

    Does that guy have a knee fetish or something? I am not seeing why showing one’s knees is considered inappropriate or hubba hubba. I think this is more about him and his hang-ups than it is about women’s knees being inherently sinful or naughty.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. singleman said:

    “Julie Anne, did my comment concerning Archbishop Foley Beach inspire this post?”

    I had been planning on reposting that old article for a while, but I have a hunch that your comment probably did prompt me to do it sooner than later 🙂 Thanks!

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  42. Incredible. Just when you thought you heard and have seen almost everything, unreal what I’m reading here. Sick. Twisted. My ex pastors just dictated a violent ripping apart of my family. And a little slander and the likes along the way. This is like a whole other world. I mean, I’m not naive at all, but this is crazy.

    My cardiologist told me when I showed him why my BP was 240/150 something, photos of our pastor, members (ex supposed friends) and my wife and kids posing at the back of a Uhaul , yes posing, with the lead pastor acting like a 35 year old child, posted on FB including the church page, “(wifes name) and company moving day” sad, the only ones not smiling were our kids. My cardiologist said, “this is why I’m not a Christian, so many are so sick and vicsious.” Sad commentary.

    Tim , I think one of the saddest things I’ve seen here today you said in one word, refugees. Very sad.

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  43. John, when my lawsuit was getting a lot of media attention, I got quite a bit of support from atheists – many of whom told me that they used to be Christian until they had a bad experience. People outside of Christianity can see the hypocrisy.

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  44. Julie Anne, doesn’t surprise me. Thanks for sharing. Fortunately, some of us can see it from the inside, after awhile. My gut showed me right away, but then I was being the good little Christian sheep and not questioning, openly. Man, Tammy Faye Jim have been outdone!

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  45. Daisy,
    That sounds like the Dye family. There were probably others, but I know this happened to them when they went to SA.

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  46. Carmen S.
    The good news of this preacher is truly good news. It really doesn’t matter is he wears pink, white, gray or zebra stripes. There are many out there, you have to want to find them.

    Like

  48. “Meanwhile Miano posted a plea for funds to cover the rest of his financial year. Maybe we should take an offering for some pink shirts.”

    I wonder why his church (John MacArthur/Grace Community Church) does not support his ministry in a financial way that is official and public so we know that it is being done? I’m sure GCC has money to burn…yet Miano is not officially supported financially by them afaik, nor promoted by them in an official way as an evangelist for GCC. With all the people at GCC, and if JMac would offer a word of public support or promotion for him as an official GCC evangelist (how hard would that be to do?), I doubt would ever have to beg online again.

    I read a post at Cripplegate several months ago by M. Riccardi (I think) about the tracts GCC uses for outreach and they did not mention Miano’s tracts (that he personally writes and promotes) but mentioned using others. How odd…here you have a supposed evangelist who has a street preaching supposed ministry AND writes his own tracts, yet they use others. GCC is not listed as a church that supports Miano on his CE website. There are only two churches listed there that support him…CON’s and Cazenovia Baptist Church.

    It’s odd to me that his own church doesn’t support him. Isn’t GCC embarrassed that a member of theirs has to beg for “living expenses” (food? clothing? shoes?) online?

    Liked by 1 person

  49. It is obvious that the pastor is not from the South in which real men wear pink shirts and ties, preferably decorated with tiny whales along with and seersucker suits and madras shorts decorated with anchors in the summer. Vineyard Vines has made a fortune on men in pink.

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  50. HUG; no argument with you that a lot of pastors are, or become, control freaks. My point was simply to wonder why these men are becoming control freaks. And to that point, my first hypothesis is that they’re not confident in their own theology, and hence to retain authority, they result to authoritarianism.

    Make sense? If I trust the Holy Spirit to counsel you from the Word of God, I do not need to berate you on your choice of Bible translation, your attire, your food and drink, how you maintain your home or car, or the like. Or you, me. I (you) can depend on the Word to do what God intends it to do in your (my) life. So my view is that authoritarian behavior is a “tell” that lets the world know that a pastor really isn’t all that confident in his theology.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. “Back in the day, all babies were dressed in pink. I have a picture of my one year old dad ( born in 1925) in a pink dress and bonnet. And despite this egregious sin, he did not grow up g*y!! 🙂 When sinful behavior is defined by the church leader’s personal likes and dislikes, that congregation is in trouble! Can we say Mark Driscoll?!”

    I have a portrait of my 18 mo old dad painted in about 1910. he is wearing a white frilly dress and has long curly black locks. I found it packed away in the attic when I was about 16. Dad gad been long gone by then so I asked my mom who the little girl was. :o)

    She said back then they dressed boys in dresses the first 2 years because of diaper changing issues. which makes sense if you think it through. anyway that portrait was forbidden to be hung anywhere by my dad who inherited it from his mother and father. :o)

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  53. Interesting points Diane. Miano made a big deal about his move to GCC, yet there’s no mention from GCC of support. I wonder if MacArthur even knows who he is.

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  54. Somebody pointed out a week back–can’t remember who–that Miano was no longer with GCC, but with another fundagelical mega-church in the area. And if this is correct, that would be where I’d go in questioning whether Mr. Miano is qualified for the ministry he’s in. There are points where, per 1 Timothy and Titus, those who would attain spiritual leadership ought to be endorsed by a sending church.

    Note that this is where Bill Gotthard also falls short, and arguably there is a corollary in people like Doug Phillips, who while endorsed by his church attained this more or less by a dominant presence.

    OK, sorry to be so off topic. Personally I can’t wait to wear my pink shirt once it warms up….maybe I’ll have to visit my dad down in Arkansas soon….and maybe get one of those linen suits Dee is talking about. Would be killer in July and August, even in Minnesocold.

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  56. @Bike Bubba,

    “Somebody pointed out a week back–can’t remember who–that Miano was no longer with GCC, but with another fundagelical mega-church in the area,’

    I don’t think so. Miano posted this yesterday-

    “Every Sunday I am home (not traveling) and attend my home church, Grace Community Church, I participate in the church’s door-to-door evangelism efforts. Yesterday, I was blessed to spend my time on the streets with my dear friend Dave Caldwell, as well as with one of Dave’s friends Dale Randall.”

    http://us6.campaign-archive2.com/?u=93d7436b921a7ebd3d2ddbf42&id=36a05f3f4e

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  57. Lydia: “Is Pink a feminine name as in AW Pink? :o)”

    I don’t know, but I do love the singer, P!nk. She rocks!

    Like

  58. @Kathi:

    I don’t know, but I do love the singer, P!nk. She rocks!

    Is Pink the one who did that video “Stupid Girls” about Paris Hilton wannabes?

    Like

  59. Brenda R.,
    He was born and raised on a dairy farm in the Mitten State. You have people full of God’s love back there 🙂

    Like

  60. Carmen S.
    They are in every state. You just have to be willing to search them out and depending on where you live, put a few miles on your car.

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  61. Diane, correction is much appreciated. I would agree 100% that it can be an issue if parachurch leaders do not submit to their local board of deacons or elders. Not that doing so is a panacea, of course, but accountability is generally speaking a good thing.

    Like

  62. Thank you, Chuck O’Neal, for giving us Spiritual Sounding Board and Julie Anne Smith. She is doing a fantastic service to the community of believers!

    Liked by 1 person

  64. According to the Smithsonian Institute, white was the predominate color or all babies until the mid-1800’s (easy to bleach clean). Soon after, pastels in general became popular for babies, with no gender distinction. Around WWI, manufacturers decided to market pink for baby boys ( considered a stronger color) and pastel blue for girls ( softer, more feminine). The idea was to get consumers to buy more baby products. For some unknown reason around WWI, manufacturers and advertisers switched to pink for girls and blue for boys. So preachers listen up-the marketing of colors have nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with financial profit!

    Like

  65. Per Ann’s comment, the prevalance of colors in fabrics beginning in the mid-1800s has a lot to do with coal tar dies (which made colors better and “faster”) and the desire of fabric mill owners to keep the steam engines running and their own profits higher. And so instead of being grateful for any color save white/ecru/brown/gray, we get to fight over which colors are masculine or feminine.

    It’s worth noting as well that those same steam engines got rid of big sleeves and roomy skirts and the like. Getting one of those caught in a drive belt was not advisable, to put it mildly. So if you lament the fact that modern fashions are boring, your great-grandparents moved that way to improve their chances of coming home alive.

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  68. BTW, it’s my (probably not humble enough) view that industrial control is a big reason that church leaders all too often try to do the same thing. Think David Allan Coe

    Boss man he’s a regular dog
    Foreman–he’s a fool
    got hisself a brand new flattop haircut
    Lord, he thinks that’s cool!

    And then many of those who practice this are surprised when we get the nerve to say….

    take this church and shove it.

    A large amount of what we do–big schools, big government, big factories, big companies, and yes, big church–is at its heart an attempt to conform life to the factory model.

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  69. Ann wrote,

    So preachers listen up-the marketing of colors have nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with financial profit!

    This reminds me of a documentary I watched on cable TV a year or more ago, or a History Channel show. It said that when wrist watches were first created, men did not want to wear them, because they were considered feminine.

    From History of the Wristwatch:

    Less than 100 years ago, no self-respecting gentleman would be caught dead wearing a wristwatch. In those days of yore, real men carried pocket watches, with a gold half-hunter being the preferred status symbol of the time—no pun intended.

    Wristlets, as they were called, were reserved for women, and considered more of a passing fad than a serious timepiece. In fact, they were held in such disdain that many a gentlemen were actually quoted to say they “would sooner wear a skirt as wear a wristwatch”.
    —————–
    You can find similar information about the early history of the wrist watch on other sites.

    Do the preachers who preach against men wearing pink shirts wear wristwatches? If so, men from over 100 years ago would have thought them girly or effeminate for it.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. First they tell you you can’t wear certain colors. Next thing they’ll tell you is how wide the brim of your straw hat should be, because that’s a HUGE salvation issue, right there. Throw in some elder-domination over your beard length, the abandonment of electricity and anything modern, and you have a WHOLE NEW RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT.

    Wait a second…

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  72. And this is why Jesus is never physically described in any of the Gospels. Remember what strict Islam has done with the mention of Mohammed having a beard. Or sleeping on his right side.

    “If the Gospels mentioned Christ wearing a certain color of robe, we’d now have a Holy color of dress.”

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  73. Hi Julie Anne and Folks,

    Here’s a Wall Street Journal article “Banned From Church” about church discipline/shunning/control freak pastors/elders and a Michigan grandma (church member of more than 50+ years)who was shunned at her church for asking legitimate questions, arrested, and even jailed for showing up at church! The prosecutor refused to prosecute her!
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB120061470848399079

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  74. Are we really worshiping Jesus in our 501c. 3 churches any longer, or are we literally paying homage to man?

    Praise me, praise me perhaps more clearly defines the hearts and minds of men these days, while Jesus clearly says “to deny yourself.”

    What does humility really look like anymore for “to die to self” is turned around to “promote thyself.

    At the end of the day, Jesus clearly cares about the soul of each individual for the body “is the living temple of God, the Holy Spirit” and there are no Holy Scriptures to legalize which colors are appropriate for our fashion code.

    Wow! Glad to see the insanity of it all!

    Like

  75. Michaela, fascinating article. It appears that a Baptist church expelled a member for holding the Baptist position that a church ought to have a board of deacons. And as a firm supporter of church discipline per Matthew 18, I concede 100% that this illustrates how church discipline can go wrong. While there may have been bad blood already between her and the pastor, possibly part of why she requested a deacon board, refusing to kiss the rear ring of the pastor does not qualify as a reason for Biblical church discipline. He is supposed to be a shepherd, not a dictator.

    In other words, if a church is going to practice church discipline, the process needs to be clearly designated to be designed to respond to actual sins, and not just personality differences.

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  76. @Daisy:

    There was a video from about a year ago of a, I believe, IFB (Fundy Baptist) preacher telling parents to smack their son if he acted too effeminate, and to tell their daughters not to be too much into sports, girls should wear make up and dresses.

    -North Carolina Pastor Sean Harris: Parents Should ‘Punch’ Their Effeminate Children (AUDIO)-

    Ah, yes.
    Pastor “Beat-the-Fag-Out-of-Your-Kid”. (To me, that’s his name from now on.)
    Not surprising that he’s IFB.
    And keeping up the IFB reputation among the “Heathen(TM)”,

    Like

  77. All: Just checking in for a bit. I have to finish a take-home quiz, study like a mad woman at school with another students and then take my last quiz and final this evening. Then I’m racing over to church to sing in the 2nd half of our live Christmas tree drama/program. Thanks for your understanding and support. My phone goes with me everywhere, so I’ll check in from time to time.

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  78. @ lydia00 & Bike Bubba:

    She said back then they dressed boys in dresses the first 2 years because of diaper changing issues

    That and the fact that it takes a lot less fabric (and thus costs less) to put a boy in a skirt during his early growth spurt, than to keep remaking the same pair of pants over and over again every time he outgrows them. Aren’t there pictures of FDR wearing a skirt as a little boy too?

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  81. Michaela,
    Thank you for the article. It is disheartening just how low pastors/preachers/clergy will go to be in control. It’s no wonder that church is such a turn off.

    Like

  83. “In other words, if a church is going to practice church discipline, the process needs to be clearly designated to be designed to respond to actual sins, and not just personality differences.” – Bike Bubba

    And I think that’s the problem with the majority of churches that practice church discipline, that say that they’re going back to the fundamentals of church, is that it doesn’t take in to account that the people carrying it out are usually control freaks, power hungry, lacking in love, and want obedience and submission and will threaten people with expulsion for not obeying their whims. It has NOTHING to do with lovingly helping people with their sin. Even the Apostle Paul told Believers to welcome a man back into the church who’d been having an affair with his step-mother or else he would become overwhelmed. The Apostle Paul handled church discipline like a skilled surgeon with a scalpel.

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  84. JA, Good Luck! Oops, my fundie friends use to say the word luck came from the word lucifer. They lied.

    Ann,

    Thank you! That reminds me of friends from church who refused to say potluck and instead said “potbless.” @@ <—–ja rolling her eyes.

    On account of finishing my last final, I shall celebrate with this:

    Like

  87. Potbless–pot-providence. Ewwwwww What’s wrong with potluck??? It is just a word and you feel lucky when there is something on the table you really like and not 30 green bean casseroles.

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  89. Michaela, there are times I could be a “tag team” with you, (apologies for the pro wrestling reference, but it seemed apt) I would build on your comment about too many church leaders being power hungry by noting that a key challenge to reducing church abuse is to create churches that are not attractive to that kind of person. The power hungry person will be less attracted to the situation where he can not dominate the situation by his personality.

    Not a comprehensive list, but three things that come to mind are an active deacon/elder board (not just a rubber stamp for the pastor), active theological education that forms an outside frame of reference (and thus the will of leaders is more likely to be subordinate to God’s will), and finally an attitude that church leaders ought to be intensively training new church leaders who are progressively given more responsibility.

    That will, in turn, create a downward pressure on the size of churches–because in my experience, too many of the people who build huge churches (Osteen, MacDonald, Driscoll, and the like) are those who simply “do not play well with others” and do not take intense interest on discipling new leaders.

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  91. Hi Bike Bubba,

    The church I went to was a small independent church, a church plant about 8 years old.

    The senior pastor has good theological training/seminary, even knows Hebrew
    and Greek.

    They do train people, men, to lead.

    However their authoritarian/patriarchy
    beliefs have done much damage. Claiming to be a caring shepherd and requiring everyone “obey” and “submit” are mutually exclusive behaviors. It also made the pastors/elders arrogant, immature, emotionally stunted, disrespectful, hostile, angry, rude and abusive. When their answers are “because I said so”…well that is a toxic church.
    They never grew up.

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  92. Been there. Note your comment about “because I said so”–note that this means that whatever their theological training, they’re not applying it. No? Does not the authority of the pastor derive from…..Scripture?

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  95. Hi Bike Bubba,

    As Biblically solid men who have left my former church have said that the Bible
    gives the qualifications of an elder but not the powers our pastors/elders claim over peoples’ lives.

    One man who left is the son of a pastor in another state.

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  96. @ Ann:

    Oops, my fundie friends use to say the word luck came from the word lucifer. They lied.

    Yeah, in my experience fundies routinely mistake word association for etymology. I once caught a Seventh-Day Adventist claiming that Hollywood was run by demons, because “stars” live there and the fallen angels who followed Satan are described as “stars” that fell from heaven, and Harry Potter has a holly wood wand so COINCIDENCE?!?!?!?! I THINK NOT!!!!!!

    Like

  97. Brenda, google “Mormon Funeral Potatoes”. My husband still cannot convince me that they are a necessary part of life. 🙂

    Back on topic now. One of my college guy friends had a girlfriend who decided to play a joke on him and insist he use a hot pink cell phone cover. She thought it would embarrass him. He took it to a new level and announced that pink was his new favorite color, wore pink shirts, everything. Two weeks later the girlfriend broke up with him because she couldn’t embarrass him and quite frankly he looked good in pink. The infamous cell phone cover soon found a new home in the trash but he continued wearing the pink tshirts.

    Like

  98. Looking at the ingredients, it strikes me that eating too many of those “funeral potatoes” will get one to one’s funeral more quickly….and I’ve had ’em and they can be really, really good.

    Like

  100. “Funeral potatoes. I’m not familiar with those.”

    Looked it up and I make those but my recipe calls them cheesy potatoes. I have never heard of funeral potatoes! lol It’s a green bean casserole minus the green beans and using hash browns instead. Plus a bunch of other stuff.

    Like

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