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In some conservative Biblical Patriarchal circles, young ladies remain at home, sheltered, under the protection of their father. They are generally not allowed to work outside the home or attend college. This is in order to “protect” them from worldly influence. Could this practice be setting up these young ladies for abuse?
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And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;
Philippians 1:9-10
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I wanted to start off with this Young Turks Video discussing The Christian Patriarchy Movement or Stay-At-Home Daughters movement. The Young Turks appeal to a secular crowd and it’s interesting to see how they analyze it. I think their analysis is quite good. Oh, and the feminism part at the end, if you think those ideas are whacked and there is no way a Christian would say those things, think again and Google search Kevin Swanson. Kevin Swanson is part of this movement, friends with Doug Phillips and he regularly spews rhetoric so vile that the secular media has a heyday with it. Gotta love that kind of “representing Christ.”
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Warning for mild profanity and plenty of snark.
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The above video has good discussion on some of the basics of Patriarchy. However, what happens at a deeper level with the young ladies as they mature into adulthood and beyond?
Although, the young woman involved in the Doug Phillips affair has not been identified, it is commonly known that she was young, probably just 18 years old when the relationship started. The relationship may have lasted 10 years. Ruth left a comment on the previous article that I was so glad to see because it’s been something that I’ve spent time thinking about, too, as far as the long-term effects of living in at home as a stay-at-home daughter.
Some people have suggested that this “affair” (not the “Biblical know” kind of affair, as Phillips was compelled to point out) was not an abusive relationship. I completely disagree because the young ladies who are from these circles are often repressed emotionally, unable to make the kinds of decisions that others outside the Homeschool Movement circle may be able to make much more prudently.
The big question is: do these young ladies even possess the skills to be able to protect themselves in this environment?
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Ruth
NOVEMBER 30, 2013 @ 7:51 PM [EDIT]
Long time lurker, first time poster. What has brought me here is trying to better understand the young women I’ve come to know personally over the last year who have been severely damaged by biblical patriarchy, spiritual and physical abuse in their religious environments, and yes, autocratic fearful, ignorance based homeschooling. The plural of anecdote is not data of course — I speak only of personal observation and a long life lived. Nevertheless, these young women who have tried to venture out into the world beyond their homeschool patriarchy silos are damaged, not by the world, but by being unprepared to deal with it. They were crippled before they ever left home. It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there and the enormous cognitive dissonance it creates when the fabric of their childhood unravels.
With all due respect, if these young, dependent, overly sheltered homeschooled young women had been exposed to the women I know who are in college environments, my professor friends and peers, or if they had met the “worldly” young people I know in college themselves or recently graduated, maybe these stay at home girls might have learned about basic things, such as what inappropriate touching is, and words such as “no.” As someone pointed out regarding Phillips’ abused victim, she would have been safer in college than as a stay at home daughter. Keeping her under cover of her father and Phillips didn’t protect her — it groomed her to be an abuse victim. Sending a homeschooled, sheltered son or daughter to college or otherwise out into the world without having ever learned to question authority and think critically would be dangerous and could be devastating but the problem isn’t with the college. It’s the mindset that elevates unquestioning obedience to earthly male authority and teaches her that she’s nothing but a womb waiting to be filled.
I firmly believe that I keep my children “safe” by equipping them with knowledge, skills, and the ability to think critically, by teaching them how to listen, and how to make good decisions for the day when I’m not there.
Lady Lydia responded:
“It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there.”
Ruth, what lies are you referring to being taught at home? What you describe doesn’t sound like our home or ANY homeschool environment I know. Sounds like major broad brush stereotyping to me.
Ruth followed up with a response to Lady Lydia:
Am I stereotyping, LL? Well, I was writing anecdotally, which I conceded. However, I think examples of what I write are well documented in the spiritual abuse survivor communities and religious progressive blogsphere. As I understand it, dissonance is cited as the reason why there is, apparently, a growing discrepancy between young and old evangelicals/fundamentalists on the issue of LGBTs. Ultimately, once exposed to say, an LGBT person or a liberal feminist, they can’t reconcile what they were taught with the reality of the person they meet and have come to like and respect. This extends to a critical examination of previously accepted factual, historical, scientific, and even Biblical information as well. You see examples of this painful reassessment process over and over in the spiritual abuse survivor communities, as these people present what they were taught, analyze it, and painfully come to realize that they can no longer accept it as true.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
The point is that she was young. In my mind, that makes him a pervert and a pedophile. The law may say she was old enough to consent, but we all know that 18, even young 20’s are still very much incapable of understanding the mind games these predators play. They are naïve, and trust without question. Doug Phillips is a predator. And yes, these children are ‘groomed’ to accept whatever the adult man says without question, without a voice. What a great setup for abuse.
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Ruth, it’s obvious that you are a wise, articulate, educated and sensible woman. I think you probably share many sentiments of mine. Thank you for sharing the well-developed comments above.
One of the problems with SAHD’s (in my opinion) is that they have received more indoctrination than information; it certainly leaves them ill-equipped to handle the real world and very vulnerable to abuse. If you read the information on the Blogs of some of these women you’ll hear that.
The enthusiastic ‘feminist bashing’ that these men do is laughable on the one hand and absolutely infuriating on the other. I started to listen to the message from Peter Bradrick (from yesterday’s post) but when I got to the first ‘Battle Line’ I shut it off and sent him a strongly-worded note on Facebook. What destructive, vindictive hyperbole! Since the definition of feminism is this – “the doctrine which declares that social, political and economic rights for women be the same as men” – I cannot, for the life of me, see how feminism conjures up a negative stereotype. Surely, progressive, intelligent, sensible people can see this as having much value in our society. Surely, parents who are raising children can see this as an esteemed value to impart to them. That was certainly our intent when we raised our family.
Judging from the comments on here, I would say that the overwhelming majority of the commenters are feminists – and that’s a compliment!
I feel terribly sorry for those young ladies who are being raised in an environment where their value is determined by their wombs – how restrictive, narrow-minded and absolutely abhorrent. They deserve so much more.
Oh, and Ed, I’d like to tell you that I’d be happy to share a drink with you – but I prefer wine! (wink!)
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Ruth, yes you are absolutely correct. While there are varying degrees of spiritual control and emotional manipulation, and subsequently varied levels of maturity among such stay at home daughters, the bottom line is the same: the Scripture is twisted and in many cases, daughters are lied to about what the Bible actually teaches. I was one of those daughters who believed the lies. Unfortunately for my parents, a number of friends, the patriarchy moment and Doug Phillips himself, I have been a good thinker and very intellectual and discerning for many years; I realized it wasn’t adding up….. None of this teaching was turning my focus to Christ! And so, after a renewed fervently to study God’s Word, my eyes were opened to the false teachers and the false doctrines and ideologies that I had so wholeheartedly embraced. The girls and young women who are pressured in a myriad of ways to conform are suppressed. Many do not even realize it. They believe it is normal and healthy. I did. Often it takes something painful or drastic to ‘wake them up’ or show them that deep down, they really don’t know how to cope with reality. The dreamworld crumbles fast when sin comes to the surface. When the masks fall off of the other people in our lives and we are forced to choose truth or lies, that is when it becomes evident whether or not someone is able to handle reality. Many adult sons and daughters raised in a spiritually suppressive environment cannot handle reality, cannot cope with the real world, do not know how to be mature adults. And furthermore, they do not know what it means to truly follow after Christ alone!
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My phone is choosing words for me….. I trust that the reader will note the grammatical errors of the above sentences and understand the context. By the way, I am not a feminist in any sense. I embrace my role as a woman as the Scripture clearly defines and I find my purpose and fulfillment in Christ. No more and no less. I want this freedom for all the women, young and old alike, who are still stuck in the claws of the unBiblical patriarchal households.
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A question that has been bouncing around in my mind in regards to girls and women in the Stay-At-Home-Daughter circles of the “Biblical Patriarchy” movement is, if this so retards the growth of their emotional maturity and critical thinking skills (which I think it probably does), that even though the young woman involved in the Doug Phillips affair was 18 years old, can she really be considered at her chronological age as far as being able to give consent as an adult?
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When you keep your followers young and ignorant? When you tell them to fear the world, and how they must protect you from it?
Yes, they groom these families for this type of thing. They also give them a sense of no hope, because they aren’t even ‘safe’ within the safe zone.
You have to wonder what women feel about the ‘strong’ women within the stories of the bible – out there unprotected and facing the world’s evils. Sigh.
They ‘husband/father’ at times keeps such a tight hold on his family you notice all the ‘marriage aged’ women don’t get married as often either. Yet, that is one thing they push – family of their own. Voddie bugs me because he has a sick wife, and keeps adopting children – yet at the same time can’t find anyone ‘good’ enough for his own daughter to marry. He is using his child as a back up, and she is no child anymore. The Botkins girls are old enough to marry, and yet they are not either. They keep their children under lock and key, and how do they think they are going to ‘expand’ this movement again?
They bring such great shame upon these women if they think outside the system, and yet they tell them they are the ‘glue’ that keeps together. When something awful happens? Its their fault. Since they love the stereotypes, and lie about others so much to make them look even scarier? Here is one for them! They have a circle of modern day slaves that they claim are living like a princess. All position, and glowing role model for the outside world (of family that is) – and yet not allowed to even step foot into independent thinking, family of their own, education, or life outside their 4 walls…if its not the controlled environment of the church. They have no voice, and they aren’t allowed the word ‘no’ when it comes to men with authority over them.
Great power corrupts, and YES they do use their power that way. They just twist to say its biblical. They can’t have it both ways.
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Pam (6:21am), “…can she really be considered at her chronological age as far as being able to give consent as an adult?”
Remembering my own experience of emerging from a hugely authoritarian dysfunctional home, no, I was not able to give genuine consent but it was assumed that I was. And the dissonance was painful, particularly because I was always beating back the tale my parents told, that I couldn’t do things because I was somewhat stupid (being female and all).
Many females in these homes are also “parentified children”. I was. I had to do a lot of the maternal work throughout my childhood, and in those aspects, I was mature beyond my age. This combination of “overly maternal” and deep ignorance made me hugely vulnerable.
When one has been that secluded, one doesn’t understand the normal non-verbal language of culture, or comprehend the common references, isn’t familiar with the music or news of the past decade, or understand how different bureaucracies (such as schools, businesses) work.
For eg, it took me quite a while just to learn to watch movies. I’d annoy the people around me: “Huh? What just happened?” Even film has it’s own language.
Beside my vast ignorance, I found not knowing what I was eligible to do and what I wasn’t to be the most confusing and painful. It went all the way down to personal boundaries, which had been completely trashed by my upbringing, to the point that having any was considered ungodly.
When people’s feet have been bound during their growing years, they cannot be expected to walk down the street right after bindings are removed. These young women need some kind of half-way house. I wish there’d been something like that for me.
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“Prime purposes of feminism are to establish a lesbian-socialist republic and to dismantle the family unit…. kill children… destroy capitalism… practice witchcraft… become lesbians…”
::headdesk:: ::headdesk:: ::headdesk:: ::headdesk:: ::headdesk:: ::headdesk::
Ow. Why did I watch that just before going to bed? Gotta take some Tylenol…
😉
It’d be so much funnier if some Christians didn’t actually think this about feminism.
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Just think of the work for the kingdom these SAHD daughters could be contributing to by serving the oppressed and downtrodden in the world!! (I think, just maybe, Jesus may have said some things about that as well as most of the book of Isaiah. 🙂 ) My daughter is a case manager for human sex trafficked victims and that, my friends, is where the rubber meets the road and Jesus becomes flesh to these poor girls/women. Not “serving” fathers who can boil water just a good as any female. (Please don’t interpret this as we should not be serving our families but we can do both). Gotta get ready for church….
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Joyelle posted:
“And furthermore, they do not know what it means to truly follow after Christ alone!”
Excellent post Joyelle. This is so true. This movement has promoted legalism and bondage and does indeed distort the truth and sufficiency of Scripture.
Joyelle posted:
“By the way, I am not a feminist in any sense. I embrace my role as a woman as the Scripture clearly defines and I find my purpose and fulfillment in Christ. No more and no less. I want this freedom for all the women, young and old alike, who are still stuck in the claws of the unBiblical patriarchal households.”
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. I would never call myself a feminist. The historical connotations do not in any way define me just as the patriarchal movement does not either.
I trust no man’s or woman’s words unless they line up with Scripture. I am thankful for the truth in Scripture, Christ my Savior and the Holy Spirit in my life.
Joyelle, I hope the Lord will bring you many opportunities to communicate your message to others, especially those caught in the traps of the patriarchal world. You are well spoken and for so many who are confused and hurting, I believe the wisdom you have gained from your own experiences would be of great benefit. It is also encouraging that you “find purpose and fulfillment in Christ” alone. This will be key to those trying to break chains from an abusive indoctrination. I pray the Lord will bless you as you serve Him in this area and that He will bring your story to many who need to hear.
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Patrice,
Thank you for the in-depth response which has given me more food for thought.
Do you think that, perhaps, that level of maturity in those aspects then is conflated with maturity in all or most other aspects? If so, I can see where that could lead to sometimes damaging or disastrous results when then relating to people/situations in the larger world outside the home. I’m thinking analogously to someone who is so extremely proficient in their field that it is oftentimes, but not always, erroneously assumed that that person would then be the best candidate to supervise/manage others in that particular field, and that doesn’t always work out too well.
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The problem with that feminism word when said in the context of conservative Christiandom is that they view it under the microscope of the extremists. That drives me bonkers. I think there are a lot of closet Christian feminists – – you know the kind that think it’s okay for women to vote, have equal pay for equal work, etc. I got in an argument with Denny Burk over this and was trying to pin him down on this by asking him to define it. He then gave me a long response about 2nd and 3rd wave feminists. So, essentially, you have to qualify which brand of feminism each time you say it or else you get labeled as one of those extreme versions.
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Reading everyone’s comments today reminds me so much of the recent stories of the abducted women who have been held captive for 10 or more years. The men who captured all of them used emotional abuse and fear that deeply scarred them enough to keep them from running away when they had multiple chances.
I am hoping that the downfall of Doug Phillips is just the beginning of the break down of this movement. I hope that many young women begin to see through the lies and break free of their family’s prison walls.
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I think you are right – – they’ll need a lot of hand-holding and to see what normalcy is.
By the way, if you want to get an idea how this stunted growth looks like, I’m in the middle of reading: Fake Someone Happy: The true story of the damaged daughters of American patriarchy and their emotional abuse
I’m not a fan of the writing style, but the author does an excellent job of breaking down oddities and relational challenges that young ladies who live in this environment face.
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My former fiancé boasted that his thirteen-year old daughter had made the decision to forego college. She had once intended to attend Harvard and become a lawyer, but had made this decision all on her own. (Yeah, right!) I had no idea that they were practicing patriarchy (did not really know what that was at the time), and had never heard of VF. I became aware of that after I ended the engagement. With a young daughter of my own, I became concerned that she, too, would not have a college education because he was opposed to his daughter even attending a Christian college (which is what I intend for my daughter). He said that he couldn’t provide “covering” for her if she was away at college. I suggested that she live at home and commute to school (as I had), but that was not acceptable either.
As a woman with a masters degree, I just could not wrap my head around denying these girls an education. Even if they were to be SAHMs who homeschooled, they should have a good education in order to educate their children well. Ah, but that was not really a priority in their homeschooling experience – being well-educated. His teenagers didn’t have the math skills my fourth and fifth grade public school students do! They didn’t even know their multiplication facts. In addition to his daughter not planning on going to college, he had no intention of paying for college for his two sons. This is a man who has been very successful in business, and could easily afford to send his children to college.
I think it is abusive to deny your child the opportunity to develop their God-given talents and abilities. What good is your faith if you cannot go out into the world (work or school) and be a light to your coworkers and classmates?
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@ Julie Anne,
And some of the statements of some of those extremists have been altered, misconstrued and then broadcast in their “new form” so as to further revile feminism. For example, a phrase that has been attributed to both Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon is, “All sex is rape” or “All men are rapists”. Neither of them said that. Dworkin said something to the effect of that the way we think of heterosexual intercourse and the words used to describe it, in the vernacular, would lead one to believe that all heterosexual intercourse was rape. When asked about it, Dworkin said, “What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That’s my point.” And now let’s look at a statement made by Doug Wilson in a blog post comment he made, “In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts. This is of course offensive to all egalitarians, and so our culture has rebelled against the concept of authority and submission in marriage. This means that we have sought to suppress the concepts of authority and submission as they relate to the marriage bed.”(emphasis mine). Things that make you go “hmmmmmmmmmmmm”.
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I am very proudly a Christian. I am very proudly a feminist. .I want for every woman and man equal legal rights. I want for every woman and man equal respect, education. Equal consideration in all areas of life. I believe that strong families are the foundation of our society. I am not a lesbian and I count several in my circle of friends. They have wonderfully strong families. It makes me sad to hear (read) women who say they share these values and are very quick to add “But I’m not a ow can we take back this word to its true meaning if we don’t claim what we believe. Oh yeah, I’m a feminist – always.
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I obviously cannot operate a keyboard properly today. Must be a female thing 😉
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Pam, good point, and Wilson’s quote is disgustingly revealing no matter how you slice it, and especially in context. And to think he came to Jared Wilson’s blog (when it went viral in the summer of 2012) to defend himself and Jared agreed with him. When men of this level of prominence in Christiandom don’t have a problem with words like this, its’ a very scary world for women.
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Let me know if you want me to fix something, Pam. Nothing popped out at me at first glance.
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I’m with you, Kathrine! Since I’m surrounded by like-minded individuals at work, at home and in my church I find it vexing to come up against people who aren’t’ feminists. To me, there’s no distinctions – you either believe that women are equal to men or you don’t. I also believe that if you’re reading non-inclusive messages in the bible, perhaps you should stop reading it. Or give your head a shake.
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Pam (8:33am), Yah, I think it is quite a bit like that. We tend to be task-focused when evaluating maturity and we also tend to think that capability in one area means across-the-board capability. I’m not sure why we evaluate in that way–maybe it’s easier, I don’t know. The ability to manage children (and the chores surrounding that) makes it seem that these young women are accomplished—they’ve learned to be sanguine in the midst of chaos and to be organized and manage (small) people.
But while these girls were learning/practicing these skills (which they cannot do as well as necessary because they are children themselves), they’re also not learning the developmental stuff that normal kids learn, and that lack has to be hidden away from everyone, even themselves, so as to perform as “second mother”.
Unwinding these distortions and filling in the gaps in knowledge and development is a huge task that truly can’t be done alone. The good part of it is that the learning curve is steep because they are older. But still, it can only go so fast; it just takes time.
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It was the learned helplessness fostered within young women in this group that prompted me to get involved in the discussion years ago. (Then, I became involved online because we supported organizations that started promoting Phillips, and believed that we had to undo some of the damage that my husband and I had indirectly fostered in ignorance.)
The concept of bounded choice (in the anti-cult literature) describes the limited access that a person has to choices and options that require them to go outside the high demand religious system. To survive, you must give your critical thinking over to the group and their leaders, and to stay within the system, you have to abide by the standards. This limits your choices, because though you could make them, they’re really off limits, according to the teaching of the group.
Shunning and the “God will get you” curses demonstrate ultimate example of this for the adult who joins an aberrant group. If you leave against the wishes of your authority, God will punish you or may even kill you. You are free to leave, but at your own temporal and eternal peril. God will reject you if you “reject Him.” Because of the manipulation and blackmail used to keep you hooked, the choice of leaving is not all that viable. This is especially true if you are a dependent financially, because leaving may mean that you have nowhere to live and no way to meet your own needs without the help of the group. There’s no pragmatic way to do it for many people.
For young women within this ideology, this becomes even more intense. On top of these other pragmatic limitations and the threat of their divine annihilation if they leave, the idea of actually leaving may never have crossed their minds. The abilities and the ideas of people who are outside the system have not been taught to these young women, they have only experience in relationships with their own families and the family’s closer friends, and some ideas about what options are available to them may have never even occurred to them. Think about asking someone who is blind since birth to describe color to you. How could they, if they’ve never experienced it? The same is true for girls in this group (boys have more options and control). It seems like they should just be able to walk away, but all of these choices to free themselves are completely non-viable.
For this population in patriarchy, I put up a whole blog about the problems that they face. Bounded choice is just one element of the dilemmas and issues that they must overcome, even after they can walk away.
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Oh, and Pam – that diatribe by Doug Wilson. Honestly, anyone who says things like that out loud deserves the title of , “Big, bearded BUFFOON” He makes me laugh.
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Julie Anne, I think my first comment got spammed about Developmental Trauma Disorder and Second Generation Adults, what I think Patrice has described to a T in an earlier comment.
I wrote a second comment (which I like better), but it must have been spammed, too.
(mod note: got it taken care of now, thanks!)
The International Cultic Studies Association offers recovery workshops specifically for “Second Generation Adults” because of the developmental gaps that they must contend with because of what they lost in childhood while contending with the trauma of spiritual abuse.
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Patrice, you astutely wrote:
But while these girls were learning/practicing these skills (which they cannot do as well as necessary because they are children themselves), they’re also not learning the developmental stuff that normal kids learn, and that lack has to be hidden away from everyone, even themselves, so as to perform as “second mother”.
Trauma experts are now advancing a new diagnosis for complex trauma for children called “Developmental Trauma Disorder” for this very reason. Instead of focusing on the tasks of childhood, children have to use their energy and attention to cope, usually focusing on the problems of their parents as well. When these children grow up, because they lack the coping abilities that adults from “good enough” homes take for granted, they cannot cope well with trauma. These are the people who end up getting profound PTSD who require much help overcoming the problems of living and subsequent trauma. A good number of them also struggle with addictions and more than one at one time. Codependency comes from this as well.
http://undermoregrace.blogspot.com/2012/01/understanding-how-emotional-development.html
Dovetailing with this is the concept of the “Second Generation Adult” (SGA) in the anti-cult effort, for the problems and issues that an adult who grew up in a high demand religion struggles with are very different from those of people who had a “good enough” childhood and were recruited as an adult. The International Cultic Studies Association offers recovery workshops for former members, but the adult recruits are split off from the “SGAs” because of this. They also offer a recovery workshop every year specifically for SGAs. One has to go back as an adult to master skills that should have been learned in childhood, even early childhood. (Think Eric Erickson, if you’re familiar with him.)
http://religiouscultsinfo.com/2013/03/icsa-discussion-from-june-2008-growing-up-in-cults/
From the perspective of family therapy, Murray Bowen described what he called the “undifferentiated ego mass.” The child derives all of their identity from their family and parents when they are young. As they mature, the start to differentiate from the family, hopefully to emerge from the family and into adulthood with their own concept of self and their own healthy self-reliance. Within high demand groups, particularly in Phillips system, adults are never permitted to differentiate.
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Wow. Errr, thanks. It’s been running smack into things like this that has energized my own feminism which has been quiescent for decades. Silly me, I had thought all those old fights had been fought and that no one seriously contested the once radical notion that women simply wanted to be treated as human beings. Thank you Quiverfull and Biblical patriarchy for making me the proud feminist I am today!
As to consent, In an environment of systemic obedience to male authority, how can a woman ever give joyful, explicit consent to anything? If the man is set up to mediate between the woman and God, how could she ever refuse anything the male authority asks of her? This goes to Cyndi K’s point maybe about how women can’t leave these communities because the leaders hold the threat of damnation.
Cyndi, K, thank you especially for that analysis and the links. I’m a true outsider to these cultures and have taken to lurking in forums like this one to better understand the survivors and those who are still very much in the shackles of it.
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On the feminism subject, call yourself a feminist if you want to, but no one gets to define feminism for me since I lived through the sixties and seventies, in a large city, and I know of the “leaders” of the movement and saw first hand the extremism. There might be so called “levels” now, but if you don’t define your label, there is no way to know who you are within that broad term.
Why so angry that I don’t embrace the label? You have no more right to force this on me than the patriarchal abusive movement has to tell me how to raise my homeschooling family.
This blog is full of warnings and strong criticisms, rightfully so in most cases, sounding off regarding high profile people aligning themselves with the Doug Phillips and CJ Mahaneys of the Christian world. I see a parallel here with regards to the “feminist” label discussion. You can pull out the “official” definition, but that does not reflect the reality of many who had to deal with the impact of the movement back in the day and definitely does not reflect the roots and leadership of the feminist movement. Just as I would not endorse Phillips or Mahaney or be in a group with them, why would I want to take on a label so burdened down with extremism and connected to abusive, activist females and why should my rejection of the label make you go bonkers? I’m not bonkers that you want to be known as a feminist. I’ll just consider that when reading what you write. I would expect you to do the same with my comments.
Equal pay, the right to vote, respect … Strong Christian women I know would wholeheartedly agree, and in doing so, we do not need a label.
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It occurs to me that many on this thread need to read some powerful (and disturbing) stories about women who grew up in these Christian Patriarchy homes to realize the damage done from sheltering/smothering women and limiting their independence. Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism is one site, Home Schoolers Anonymous is another and Lana Hobbs, the Brave – you really need to check them out. Julie Anne has some others listed on her Blogroll (column on the right).
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Cindy K, I am an ongoing sufferer of profound PTSD that began at the age of 4, and only got worse with additional traumatic abuse throughout my teens and even more (and worse) in later adulthood. I am over on your blog site right now, reading your information on PTSD. I have never healed, and suffer from flashbacks and cyclical depression. I’ve been through decades of counseling with no relief. I’ve even undergone 6 rounds of ECT, and it only made matters worse, as it merely destroyed my short-term memory capabilities instead of the long-term memories. Anything and everything related to male authority, control, force, physical or sexual abuse or unethical legal systems where children are involved trigger the PTSD in me. I may be beyond help. I can only pray that the children in these unbiblical situations flee and seek help before they end up like me.
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To waitingforthetrumpet2 – My heart aches for you. Your entry made me cry. I fervently wish I could do something for you but I’m betting Cindy is who you need.
Sincerely,
Carmen
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Waiting for the Trumpet,
I’m so sorry and can relate. I suffered all sorts of trauma as a child, and as an adult, I’ve had three major depressions/“adjustment disorder” disorder diagnoses. The Assemblies of God provided good training for me in the basics, but my mom supplemented with crazier Word of Faith stuff. When I cycled out of that system, I ended up in one much like Sovereign Grace Ministries that was influenced by Gothard and the leaders in the Shepherding Movement. I completely fell apart when I left that group after four years. After relocating, I ended up in the same Presby church as Doug Phillips (right before he ran off to found Boerne Christian Assembly). And I would fall apart again when faced with dealing with the childhood trauma. The good thing that’s come out of it has been an ability to relate to the “Quivering Daughter,” though I wasn’t one but saw them all around me.
Because of nursing, I found counseling accessible, and I went at age nineteen when I could drive there and pay for it. I did a huge amount of cognitive behavioral work on my own (which I find to be very consistent with Scripture and renewing the mind). What really helped me tremendously with PTSD which never seemed to get better was Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, without which, I think I would have given up. I cannot speak more highly about it. If you look on my site on the index to the writings about PTSD, there’s a post about finding a therapist that talks about how EMDR works. It gets into the physiology of why it works, but I did that to take the sting out of the idea that this is spooky weird superstitious stuff and is based on brain science. It allows the brain to heal, and a Christian counselor will integrate the Word into this approach which lends to it quite well.
Don’t give up! There is a ton of help out there. I highly recommend the workshops here,, too.
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Waiting for the Trumpet,
Please send me an email through my website and maybe we can talk. I don’t think you’re beyond hope.
I used to sit at altars and weep, thinking that I was beyond hope, too. And there are still things that I have to work at, but I’m making progress all the time.
I recently moved, and two health problems that I couldn’t get any competent treatment for after years of seeking help are now getting the attention they deserve. I just needed to get to the right doctors as the right time in the right place. Maybe that’s the case with you, too.
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Hannah Thomas: “They ‘husband/father’ at times keeps such a tight hold on his family you notice all the ‘marriage aged’ women don’t get married as often either. Yet, that is one thing they push – family of their own. Voddie bugs me because he has a sick wife, and keeps adopting children – yet at the same time can’t find anyone ‘good’ enough for his own daughter to marry. He is using his child as a back up, and she is no child anymore. The Botkins girls are old enough to marry, and yet they are not either. They keep their children under lock and key, and how do they think they are going to ‘expand’ this movement again?”
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@ Julie Anne,
I think my vision was just getting a little blurry and I needed to get away from the computer monitor for a while, so that’s exactly what I did.
@ Carmen,
Yes, he makes me laugh, too. Sometimes I visit those blogs (his, SSM’s,,Laura Grace Robins’, etc.) just for the lulz.
@ Ruth,
Exactly! Some things really must come from the heart and cannot be commanded of someone, as that does not change their heart, they feel what they feel.
I also think that that misunderstanding is what leads some folks to believe that God endorsed and approved of patriarchy. because he did not “step in” and put a stop to it. He very well could have commanded that patriarchal systems come to an end…but that would NOT change people’s hearts. God would work with people from within the “system” where he found them when they called for help.
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Cindy K
“If you leave against the wishes of your authority, God will punish you or may even kill you. You are free to leave, but at your own temporal and eternal peril. God will reject you if you “reject Him.”
I was always puzzled by why in the world Muslim women would subject themselves to that control and I believe it is for the same reason you mention about the patriarchy movement. Just replace “God” with “Allah” and its applicable to them.
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Reading about bounded choice really struck a nerve. What really bothers me is that these teachers of patriarchy associate their teachings as if coming from God ~ the “biblical” way (I’m thinking of the VF tenets). So, if you are a willing follower and want to please God, you would naturally want to do it the “biblical” way. We as parents wanted only the best for our kids. When these teachings tack on all these rules, they’re just pushing you further away from freedom of Christ through the Gospel. I guess it’s the bounded choice scenario with a twist of ‘thus saith the Lord”.
When you disagree in your spirit, or in your gut you know it’s wrong, and you experience cognitive dissonance then you must feel like something is wrong with you, but it’s really the other way around. These teachings are not the Gospel where you will find true freedom in Christ. You’re just replacing the Gospel of grace with a Gospel of works. Coming out from under these teachings may be difficult and scary, but the Gospel was never meant to layer more burdens on you.
There are lots of resources and stories of journeys of those who have gone before you to find freedom, peace, and joy. It may not look like you imagined, but if you find out how much He loves you and wants this for you, then it’s all worth it.
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Joannah (9:01am) wrote: “I had no idea that they were practicing patriarchy (did not really know what that was at the time), and had never heard of VF. I became aware of that after I ended the engagement.”
This is one of any number of things that makes me angry at many who believe this way–they are not open about their beliefs. Why not? If they are courageous people, as they say they are, and if their beliefs are strongly Biblical, as they also say they are, why won’t they be honest and direct? Lies set into the relationship from the beginning sets up abuse, IS abusive IMO. Glad you got out before it started!
Waitingforthetrumpet2 (11:35am), Oh, I am so so sorry! I went through that too, including ECTs that only messed up short-term memory. There were literally years of raw pain that became periodically unendurable, sending me repeatedly back to the psychiatric floor so I wouldn’t suicide (I had a daughter to care for!)
I promise you, waitingforthetrumpet2, I promise that the torment will lessen. I now have times of joy and peace. My flashbacks are ever less frequent and less intense. Please hold on!!!
Do you have a supportive therapist or advocate who knows about Complex PTSD?
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Ach, I have people visiting so I am in a hurry and double posted right above—please forget the first half which was already posted to Joannah. My comment was intended for waitingforthetrumpet2
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Patrice, no I am no longer in any kind of therapy. I can no longer afford care. I’m now living only on Social Security Disability and barely making ends meet, without the ability to pay for doctors or mental health care.
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The Botkins are currently pimping their new “webinar” entitled “Are Your Children Ready for Real Life?”
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Waitingforthetrumpet2, I have found this site to be tres helpful for managing flashbacks and for learning how to live with Complex PTSD. Let me know what you think, if you haven’t seen it already.
http://www.pete-walker.com/
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I’ll check it out, thanks. I hadn’t seen that one before.
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Yes, Kathi! And I hope that people will see that it’s not just about Phillips, but it extends to Swanson, Brown, Sproul Jr, Baucham, Botkin, etc.
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The Botkins are currently pimping their new “webinar” entitled “Are Your Children Ready for Real Life?”
________________________
To what extent do the Botkins engage with the “real world”? As far as I’m aware they make and sell “webinars” from home for other people of the same religion to view/participate in from within their own homes.
I wonder what kind of “real world advice” they can offer.
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Thank you, Patrice. My eyes were opened when he lost his temper with me big time and accused me of “trying to lead”. I was like, What the heck are you talking about?! All of a sudden his facade of Mr. Nice Guy was completely cracked. Then he railed against my mother and my sister – assuring me that my sister and her husband were not having sex because of the way my sister talks to her husband. My sister and her husband have been happily married for more than 20 years, but he was convinced that it was a broken relationship. Come to think of it, he really never said anything nice about any woman in his life with the exception of his late wife and her best friend.
He also wanted to talk to me about how my daughter should be disciplined. We never got to have that conversation, and I’m relieved I don’t have memories of what he might have said. Anyway, he showed me enough of his temper that I could see he was a dangerous man, and I ended the relationship by saying I wasn’t the right woman for him. I felt that if I was honest with him about his character flaws that he might hurt me. There’s even more to say, but my story is nothing compared to what others have suffered.
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“Thank you, Patrice. My eyes were opened when he lost his temper with me big time and accused me of “trying to lead”. I was like, What the heck are you talking about?! All of a sudden his facade of Mr. Nice Guy was completely cracked. Then he railed against my mother and my sister – assuring me that my sister and her husband were not having sex because of the way my sister talks to her husband. My sister and her husband have been happily married for more than 20 years, but he was convinced that it was a broken relationship. Come to think of it, he really never said anything nice about any woman in his life”
Sounds like …….
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Snort!
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Oh, and I was “trying to lead” when I said, “Let’s go” after we were done with dinner in a restaurant. Sheesh!
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Just a heads up: I’ve got a Christmas choir dress rehearsal which might tie me up for the next few hours (not sure I’ll be able to access my phone). If you have links to post, just post them one at a time so they will go through and I will compile them later.
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I want to thank Cindy K for coming here and sharing resources. For those of you who do not know her, she has done yeomans work on this stuff and her blog undermuchgrace is a treasure trove of information and encouragement for the journey. Also thanks to Patrice for her wonderful insights and encouragement. God bless you guys!~
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Hi Cindy, Good to see you here and for the mega helpful information for so many people at various levels of trying to understand this as well as for those who need immediate help. Thanks for others for sharing about your situations and giving an opportunity for people to ‘look through your back window’ in order to understand the underbelly of all of this stuff.
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“Is a bear Catholic? Does the Pope s**t in the woods?”
— Fabulous Furry Freak Bros
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i.e. “Gawd is MY personal Enforcer. Do what I say or I’ll squeal on you! Do what I say or I’ll make Gawd put a Curse on you!”
(Isn’t getting a supernatural being to put a hex on someone for you BLACK Magick?)
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@CindyK:
Thus remaining nothing more than “Mini-Me” extensions of the Patriarch and/or High Demand Group Leader.
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And lest we forget:
http://thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.com/2011/02/daughters-shaving-daddies-i-wish-i-were.html
http://rethinkingvisionforum.org/2011/08/12/daughters-shaving-daddies-i-wish-i-were-making-this-up/
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@Julie Anne. I was waiting for a little more info before labelling this an abusive situation. I believe Peter Bradrick as well as the other men who commented their support on Peters statements that were part of the group the confronted Doug have made it very clear the this indeed was abusive.
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Cindy K, you are amazing; both the content and amount of work on your site is stellar.
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@Joannah:
All they needed was a working womb and ovaries that were ovulating. Everything else would be superfluous.
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Waitingforthetrumpet2: One helpful technique for living with Complex PTSD is to be aware of the nasty tales that keep running inside our brains. Identify them and label them. Then, do not to fight them but (every single time they appear) simply call them by name and replace them firmly with the true story. For eg, my dad told me that I was made for suffering and it kept turning up, unbidden, in my head. So I learned to notice it (recognized the tone, the color, the loudness of it) and I’d say to myself (deliberately, aloud), “That is a lie. My God is all love and a genius besides. S/He would never make anyone to suffer. I am a wonderfully made creature who was made for good things.” Sometimes I would add, “And that was just my dad’s excuse to punish me. B__S__!”
There are several rotten stories in our heads, some attached to specific abusive people, some to traumatic situations and some just general miasma from what we think we learned from the trauma. Get to know them all and treat each one with the same firmness and without engaging in battle with it. That latter is very important.
Pete Walker has a good format for handling yourself during flashbacks (which includes emotional flashbacks as well as the more concrete types). Fundamental is to take loving gentle care of yourself. Take a warm bath or cozy up in your favorite blanket, whatever feels safest. It helps to talk to the traumatized child-in-memory something like this: “I am so terribly sorry! No wonder you feel this way! It was terrible what happened to you. I will take care of you now because I am grown-up and capable. You are safe, now, see? And I promise that nothing like this will ever happen to you again.” It feels a little foolish at first, but I guarantee that it is effective over time. I often found that journaling helps get it out from behind the eyes/heart. Distracting with an old movie or good book helps reinstitute calm, too.
Over time, you will despise yourself less, become more stable, and hopelessness will wane. Be very patient. Improvement doesn’t go in a straight line. Realize that each day you get through is an act of courage and pat yourself on the back. (I gave myself gold stars for a while lol). It took me ~7 years from collapse to get to a place where I thought living was an ok idea. It took an additional 5 to be glad of it.
I have heard from a lot of people (professionals no less than others), that one can heal from PTSD. Well, that may be so for some simple forms of it, but when one has a complex case, complete healing just doesn’t happen. It has an ongoing nature similar to a chronic physical disease, and needs to be managed in the same way. Particularly look at the models used for managing autoimmune disease—it functions a lot like them.
Moreover, there is plain old permanent damage (like those ancient chinese women’s feet) and that needs to be understood by the individual (its nature varies, depending on kind/amount of trauma, at what ages, your personality, your current circumstances). And it needs to be accepted with the same gravity and clarity that one accepts, say, paralyzed legs—understand the limitations and make work-arounds.
But I have an enjoyable life, now. It is not at all worthless or pointless. I promise that is possible.
I wish you better, and soon.
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Wow. Thank you for this, Patrice! I am going to copy your comment and paste it in a private place of mine on my computer for easier access for each time I need to re-read it.
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waitingforthetrumpet2, you’re welcome! It is hard to find practical methodology.
BTW, I ended up making several lists about what to do: during flashback, when those internal critical stories/voices popped forth, when I met current stressful situations, during depression, and during general anxiety states. They were detailed so I could just read the first item, do it, and then read/do the next, etc. I kept copies in my billfold and on my computer. I kept a to-do flashback list also by my bed because of nightmares.
Complex PTSD, at it’s worst, is the brain in chaos, so applying external structure is very helpful, like putting it in a cast so that it doesn’t simply puddle into total destruction. Over time, a lighter cast can be put on and eventually it can be taken off altogether. I have what I like to call “mental canes” that I take up now and then when there’s a resurgence or something or other. Brief reminders, really.
Take time over your lists and they can be adjusted as needed, any time—they are made by you for you, to suit.
Best to you.
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Doesn’t matter how old you are, if you are a woman, you must ALWAYS be under a man’s authority, covering, protection, whatever. So growing up means different things for girls than it does for boys. I was 30 when I finally moved out, and then because the abuse (verbal, emotional) at home was escalating to the point I was afraid I was physically in danger. Got a job as a live in nanny, but other than the fact that I was still living in someone else’s house, I was pretty independent. When I explained this to a friend several months later, she said at BCA, I would have be given a safe place to stay with one of the families there. I was like, you mean under a man’s authority? She said yes, of course. In her mind there was no option of living on my own, I needed ‘protection’. Even at 30 years of age.
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“Doesn’t matter how old you are, if you are a woman, you must ALWAYS be under a man’s authority, covering, protection, whatever.”
This is actually a teaching from the Manu Smriti. And the legalists that they are, I’m sure Rushdoony and Doug Phillips read a translation of that text.
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Pam, yesterday @ 9:01 AM: “When asked about it, [Andrea] Dworkin said, “What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That’s my point.” And now let’s look at a statement made by Doug Wilson in a blog post comment he made, “In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”
No doubt Dworkin would say that sex as described by Wilson is rape. Actually, sex as described by Wilson IS rape. It has been said that rape is more about the drive for male power and control over women than about sex itself. Patriarchy is more about male power and control over women than anything else. Even rape, camouflaged as the procreative act, is enlisted in the drive to enslave women to the will of men.
I am reluctant to say that patriarchy is the moral equivalent of the enslavement of one race by another, but I am reluctant only because it is difficult to think of anything more insidious in the realm of human relationships than enslaving one’s own wife and daughters.
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Ri Ri wrote: “To what extent do the Botkins engage with the “real world”? As far as I’m aware they make and sell “webinars” from home for other people of the same religion to view/participate in from within their own homes.I wonder what kind of “real world advice” they can offer.”
Homeschoolers Anonymous has a series of articles reviewing the Botkins’s recent webinar. http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/category/botkins/ Be prepared for some real gems of wisdom and common sense from the Botkins… NOT.
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Mod note: Somebody left a comment last night which was stuck in moderation. I will not be approving the comment because it reveals the name of the person with whom Phillips allegedly had the affair.
I view this young lady as a victim. She must be protected and her privacy respected.
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Evidently I should not have limited the title on this article to just daughters, but should have included sons, too. Yes, I do believe that boys/young men were groomed for abuse, too.
Check out this new post at Jen’s Gems: Yet Another Doug Phillips Sex Scandal
One thing I was glad to hear is that the young women involved in the affair/clergy abuse left Boerne Christian Assembly with her family in January, a month before Phillips left his position (or was forced out – not sure).
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I sometimes wonder if DP and some of the other leaders that people continue to follow such as C.J. Mahaney are who Peter wrote about:
A lot of people have followed these men and subsequently the have brought the way of truth into disrepute. Also, it appears that these men “in their greed” have made up stories to exploit people in the body of Christ.
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Very good observations, Steve!
Changing subjects: I subscribe to Vision Forum’s Facebook page and they announced 60% off everything and they are liquidating their entire stock. http://goo.gl/BcwQ6C
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Selling the deck chairs on the Titianic?
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Exactly!
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And Doug’s former-friend Patriarchs are already rowing for all they’re worth. Meanwhile, second and third-class citizens are going down with the ship. Including women and children.
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To heck with women and children. That line was a farce all along. It sounded good, but it was just a cover.
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If you click on the fine print twice, it should enlarge.
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TW Eston tries to speculate why Phillips would turn a blind eye to the sexualizing going on. From patterns I have seen, it goes 2 ways (especially when the leader himself is involved in his own sexual sin): there is either a hyper response or a non-response. Phillips seems to employ both. He ignores Jennifer G., yet goes over the top on modesty/purity or calling someone out.
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He also speculates Jezi may be in possession of a piece of incriminating evidence.
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Of course, blackmail would never, ever go on at a “happiest place on earth”.
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JA said:
“Check out this new post at Jen’s Gems: Yet Another Doug Phillips Sex Scandal http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/yet-another-doug-phillips-sex-scandal/
Somehow I just KNEW BCA is a cult. And its influence has diseased countless families across the country. Detoxing from that garbage is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. I hope more people will come forward with their stories.
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This story just keeps getting weirder and more unbeliviable. I’m thinking they could makes a Life Time movie, call it THE evil midget that wanted to be a Patriarch. I wonder how that would go over with all Doug’s budding film makers.
The Patriarch RATED R for nudity, perversion and …. (Whatever else we find out about this Texas wackjob during post production or before the posters are printed).
Happiest place on earth
Different movie Dave AA
The Evil bald bastard of Sovergn Grace shot on location Gaithersburg, Md
Staring ( the same dude that played Freddy Kruggur in Nightmare on Elm street)
Local rapists , sadists and child molesters on work release needed as extras and for technical advisors. Rated R for extreme violence against children
Stay at home daughters
A documentary on incest
Rated PG for weird shaving scenes
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From over at Jen’s blog:
“According to Doug Phillips’ broad interpretation of The Covenant, “There are only two ways you can leave BCA. You can die or the Elders can transfer you to another church.” If you want to leave BCA to join another church you must first obtain a letter of transfer from Elder Doug Phillips and/or Doug’s sycophant-Elder Bob Sarratt.”
Lots of red flags! What kind of “covenant’ is this? Where do they get the idea that the only way to leave is with Elder transfer and approval (or die?)???? Hotel California???
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Oops, just saw your concern re: Jen’s blog ~ you can delete my comment if you need to ~
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“What kind of “covenant’ is this? Where do they get the idea that the only way to leave is with Elder transfer and approval (or die?)???? Hotel California???”
We have respectable leaders like Mark Dever teaching folks in large denominations the same sort of thing.
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“TW Eston tries to speculate why Phillips would turn a blind eye to the sexualizing going on. From patterns I have seen, it goes 2 ways (especially when the leader himself is involved in his own sexual sin): there is either a hyper response or a non-response. Phillips seems to employ both. He ignores Jennifer G., yet goes over the top on modesty/purity or calling someone out.”
ok, this is just weird. Here we have a patriarchal cult and all these men are wringing their hands over a vixen who is coming on to all the guys? They want DOUG to protect their sons? They want tiny Doug to make the woman quit being a sex kitten?
What has happened to all the “Puritan” training and prayers?
Do I have this right, folks? Do you all realize that NO WHERE in the story does any of the patriarchal followers or leaders go to the “couger’s” husband and tell him to get her in line. You all realize that is what shepherding patriarchal cults do, right?
They tell the husband to get her in line. And they discipline the husband.
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Monique: I’m not going to worry about it. It’s going to be talked about. We need to be mindful that T.W. Eston does not provide sources for his article (and we don’t even know who Eston is, for that matter). But . . . . .most of the things that have been posted one the blog seemed to have been proven true. The last blog article seems like a National Enquirer sensationalism article and so I removed the link from the SSB FB page, but if people want to discuss it here, that’s fine. Someone else would have brought it here if I hadn’t – lol. It’s important to have a discerning eye and I think that’s what’s going on here. That’s good!
9Marks churches and many other churches have covenant memberships – I think Mars Hill, Sovereign Grace, etc. This covenant/membership thing is huge. Todd Wilhelm has blogged about his ordeal of trying to get his former church to release him from church membership so he could join a new church and they refused to: http://thouarttheman.org They finally did (http://thouarttheman.org/2013/09/21/749/), but he’s had to go public about his story. How ridiculous is THAT?!
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Just as they got the arranged marriage and staying under the protection of a father in childhood/youth, transferred to the protection of a husband in youth/middle age and then to the protection of a son when old and the husband dies from The Manu Smriti (Hinduism), similarly they got this….
“According to Doug Phillips’ broad interpretation of The Covenant, “There are only two ways you can leave BCA. You can die or the Elders can transfer you to another church.” If you want to leave BCA to join another church you must first obtain a letter of transfer from Elder Doug Phillips and/or Doug’s sycophant-Elder Bob Sarratt.”
…… from the Bahai religion.
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Oh, okay 🙂
It’s been a wake up call to hear about these practices in these churches ~ such arrogance. I’ve been exposed to lots of crazy, but that’s one area that I must have missed 🙂
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From the original post:
“Does the Doug Phillips et al Brand of “Biblical Patriarchy” Groom Stay-at-Home Daughters to be Victims of Abuse?”
Yes. I’ve talked about this before on your blog, and at other blogs. I am sorry if I am repetitive.
In a nutshell, a lot of patriarchy, and even run of the mill “gender complementarian” (aka “biblical womanhood”) teachings are codependency under a religious veneer, couched in Christianese language to make it sound biblical.
Some gender comp lady on another blog was telling the woman at the other blog not to confuse patriarchy with gender compism, because they are, in her view, not the same thing.
I beg to differ. Pat and Comp are pretty much the same from what I’ve read. Pat. folks may be a few degrees more severe on some topics than gender comps, but they do share a lot of core common assumptions and teachings never the less.
The Bible actually WARNS against codependency in anyone. The Bible does not condone it or support it. And yet, patriarchalists and gender comps WANT women to be codependent.
Sometimes the Bible refers to codependency as “fear of man.” (That is one aspect of codependency: caring so much about another person’s opinions or possible rejection of you, that you do what he wants/says, even if it is wrong, rather than what you know God wants/ expects. You have placed man’s opinions above God’s commands/desires.)
Men and women can be afflicted with codependency, but it seems to be directed at women ten times more, and is actually encouraged by American secular culture and churches.
Even Non Christian women get socialized to be codependent.
Particularly up to the 1950s/ 60s, American women were taught that traits that are in reality, codependency, are appropriate ideals of femininity they should seek to emulate…
Such as: Being quiet, depending on a man, not making one’s own decisions,
not putting one’s needs first, always putting other people needs first,
not being direct or assertive with others (especially not with males),
being unwilling to say no to people,
being sweet, shy, submissive, always gentle, always meek, etc.
Christian women get bludgeoned with those unbiblical criteria of femininity ten times harder than Non Christian women, from preachers, sermons, podcasts, and Christian blogs, TV shows, and books about dating, marriage, or just general life advice, and especially by “gender complementarian” / “biblical womahood” advocates.
I was not brought up in a homeschooling environment myself (I went to public schools and college), my parents were not into patriarchy, but, they were Baptists who believed that women were a bit inferior to men.
My mother was a traditional gender role proponent who was not comfortable with the idea of women being in positions of leadership in or out of church.
My mom encouraged me to be a 1950ish June Cleaver type of gal, even though I grew up in the 1980s, 1990s.
I was taught by Mom (and from Christian material I heard or read from various preachers growing up) that a proper, biblical Christian female must be very submissive to men, to wait for a Prince Charming to marry me, to be really nice all the time, and to be passive.
Christian girls/women are not supposed to be assertive, act boldly, speak up, speak out, show anger, or take chances, either – other messages I got from Christians growing up.
My mom was codependent not only because she bought into strict gender role views due to Christian teaching on the topic, but also because she understood the Bible to teach only a “sweetness and light” message (she felt Christians were called to be loving doormats and take abuse off everyone no matter what, all the time), and she came from a home where her father abused her.
I really don’t want to get into a big, long personal story here since this post has gotten long already (sorry), and as this post could go to 567 more pages.
What I will say is that I was brought up similar to some of these ladies who were brought up in the patriarchy ones, and yes, it had some damaging consequences, especially when you get into adulthood.
Being trained in the “biblical womanhood” nonsense, as I was, does not prepare you for adulthood and leaves you easy pickin’s and easy prey for abusive or dishonest people. I know my mother meant well in how she brought me up, but holy cow, did it ever create obstacles for me in life.
When you are taught it is mean, selfish, or unBiblical to have boundaries (which includes you get taught it is “mean” or ‘unChrist-like’ to say ‘No’ to people, even when they are treating you poorly), yes, you become a magnet for attracting abusive or selfish people.
By the time I got to my late 20s, I used to wonder why I kept attracting mean people and jerks, when I was so gosh darn loving, nice, and giving to other people. Should not nice people attract nice people as friends? You would think so, but that was not my experience.
When I was confronted with mean, exploitative, or jerky people in my 20s and even 30s (and I was – I had abusive/mean/rude people in my life in college, to coworkers, a boyfriend, and bosses when I was an adult), I had no clue how to deal with them.
My “be a loving, sweet Christian girl always, no matter what” upbringing left me helpless with such people (and they usually knew it, they could tell I had problems being assertive, and abused me even further, as a result).
Then I read books a couple years ago that explained that abusive / con artist / manipulative / bullies / mean/ selfish / sociopathic people intentionally hunt around for super nice gals (or guys) to exploit because nice gals with crummy to non-existent boundaries who will not say no, or who won’t drop a relationship once it gets bad, are ten times easier to take advantage of and push around.
I learned that if you want to have healthy, normal safe friendships/dating with people, it means you can’t be so darn nice or let other people decide stuff for you.
You have to learn to make decisions for yourself, and be willing to stand up to people and say no, even if that means they get angry or offended or threaten to dump you.
Gender complementarian / patriarchy teachings, if you put them side by side with lists therapists publish of common codependency traits, are about identical. Such teachings leave women/girls much more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, conned, raped, verbally abused, physically abused, etc.
I read a book by a Non Christian therapist awhile back. She has seen several Non Christian (I presume, though they could be Christian) who were raped as a result of feeling internal pressure to be nice, pressure they got from years of being taught that females are supposed to be Nice Girls…
These women described in the therapist book I read were approached by men they had a bad feeling about, but said to themselves,
“Oh gosh, if I tell this creepy, weird guy to Buzz Off, it will hurt his feelings! I can’t do that, so I will go with him alone to this his apartment, as he asked, so as not to hurt him or offend him. I’ll just make a lame excuse and duck out of his apartment after five minutes, that ought to work.”
And yep, they got raped and/or beaten up by the guys.
Their guts told them these men were creepy rapist rapers and to run away, but their mothers (and maybe churches) had taught them from the time they were little girls, and older, that nice women put other people’s feelings first, their needs/safety are of no matter.
They put their physical safety in jeopardy because they were groomed not to have boundaries, because nice girls don’t have boundaries or needs, you see.
I wish people who promote this gender complementarian (biblical womanhood / traditional gender role and/or patriarchy) nonsense, would open their eyes and see they are basically making or brainwashing their their sisters/ wives/ aunts/ daughters / nieces into being incredibly easy prey for rapists, con artists, abusive men, and selfish, greedy manipulators.
Some women, like me, who finally figure out what the problem is on our own… we leave biblical womanhood teachings behind. We finally see them as being unbiblical and dangerous. I had my suspicions in my 20s, but firmly know by now (my 40s) how dangerous it is.
Not to mention a lot of biblical womanhood teachings and patriarchy material assumes all women will marry and have children, which is simply not true for all Christian women, which makes their teachings also highly irrelevant and insulting.
(Sorry for going on for so long, but I don’t know a short way of explaining some of my thoughts on some topics.)
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The membership covenant came about in the Shepherding Discipleship Movement which was a response to the Charismatic Renewal. In the mid-sixties, people in the Episcopal, Lutheran and Catholic churches started spontaneously speaking in tongues, and Pentecostals and Charismatics saw it as a sign of THE end times revival. Evangelical leaders became worried that Christians would completely neglect doctrine in favor or experientalism, so they tried to establish controls and limits on what was pretty wild in some circles. One of those mechanisms of control that they established was the membership covenant. Mahaney was in on the ground floor of this movement (as was Geoffrey Botkin), and this was just part of the right way to conduct church affairs.
Gothard was also a leader in this movement and was really the first person to consolidate and institutionalize much of the Shepherding Doctrine through his umbrella idea about covering. (Christian Growth Ministries also did a lot of this, but they didn’t have the staying power and as broad of an appeal in US Evangelicalism overall.) So some of this accountability business was propagated through Gothard’s shepherding.
The other avenue that has allowed this practice to gain traction in recent years comes through the influence of Ken Sande of Peacemaker Ministries. He teaches almost straight Shepherding Discipleship ideology and strongly recommends that all churches have members sign a membership covenant. He also uses these covenants in legal mediation to encourage church members to consign themselves to a lesser position in disputes with a religious leader, giving deference to the leader in the name of submission hierarchy (the umbrella of authority). In addition to this appeal to authority, what Cialdini calls “Commitment and Consistency” through this covenant is used against the member to manipulate them. Later, if the person does not play ball, it is used to prove that the person has become an evil apostate and doesn’t tell the truth. If they’re declared no longer Christians or officially turncoats, Sande teaches that you can sue them because they are no longer part of the church and were never really your Christian brother. (1 Cor 6 teaches that Christians shouldn’t settle affairs in civil court.)
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Miss Daisy Flower, you say that you were raised to be a loving, sweet, kind and accomodating Christian woman and yet attracted mean, exploitative people to you. I can see where you may have been taught to be loving, sweet and kind to other Christians, but my experience with hardcore Christian fanatics is that they have no problem whatsoever articulating their boundaries and setting themselves apart from non-Christians (or even Christians who belong to another sect), even going so far as to tell them where and how they are wrong, and endlessly trying to convert them.
So I am a little bit stumped on how you would not have been very bold in articulating your boundaries to fellow students in college, co-workers, bosses and other people who either not Christians, or if Christians, not members of your same sect.
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@ RiRi.
I guess it depends on the type of Christians you were talking to, what denomination, or gender.
I know that IFBs (Ind. Fundy. Baptists) can be very pushy as you describe, but even they pressure the female members to be always meek and mild and not mouthy, not to be assertive. The IFB males get more reign to be rude and pushy.
I don’t know what to tell you but yes, my mother was a very soft spoken, sweet, she would repress her anger (though I could tell she felt angry at times), and she raised me to be that way.
We were members in Southern Baptist Churches, and SBs teach the “women be submissive” stuff.
Also, my mom came from an alcoholic family. She was beaten by her drunk dad. The books say abuse in childhood by alcoholic parents is also a contributing factor to a girl becoming codependent.
Not all of my Mom’s family turned out like she did… one of her sisters (my aunt) is a fire cracker.
This Aunt has a temper and lets it show. I was encouraged by my mother, however, to feel and think that proper Christian women are always quiet, nurturing, helpful to others, quiet, passive. So I tried my best to live that out and I usually did so.
So I was a doormat over my life. I did not show anger, yell, or act rudely. I was quiet, I was respectful to people, and always put them first.
I was frequently targeted by bullies in junior high, bullied by college professors, bosses on jobs when I was an adult. I could never understand why, because I never gave folks a reason to be that way, I did not press their buttons, or act mean to them.
I was so afraid of people from the time I was a kid until my late 30s, I worked really hard at NOT angering or offending people… but I got bullied and taken advantage of anyhow.
It was not until I read books by psychiatrists and psychologists that I understood I was attracting abusers precisely because I was so nice all the time…
And at that, because my Mom, and Christian culture, tells females to be submissive, quiet, sweet little doormats, not to have boundaries.
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Unless I’ve misunderstood them, I’ve seen comments under recent posts on this and related topics attributing certain Shepherding Discipleship, Patriarchy, and other practices in these aberrant Evangelical churches to other religious traditions as if they were drawn or borrowed from them. I don’t believe per the history or the dynamics of these groups that this is accurate.
In short, it’s not that Christianity is borrowing other ideas from other religions and injecting them into their systems. All of these systems capitalize on the strengths, weaknesses, and natural tendencies of human nature and interject them into their respective religions.
I attribute the common thread and similar practices to the common dynamics of thought reform/spiritual abuse. Essentially, when you go about manipulating a group of people who follow an ideology, with human nature being fairly predictable, there are also a predictable number of things that work really well. In terms of Christianity, the works of the flesh that Paul described in Galatians end up taking on a predictable pattern when directed at groups when they follow man’s traditions instead of following the Spirit. If you follow the Spirit and you don’t use the Word of God to let the end justify the means of accomplishing grand and lofty goals, it really does limit the devastation of spiritual abuse. When you follow manipulation and control, this takes on a set of predictable characteristics.
David Henke’s spiritual abuse model identifies five characteristics of these high demand religious groups, some of which just end up falling into these patterns because the church is forced to follow the will of the leadership instead of the Scriptures. They are:
– Authortarianism
– Image Consciousness
– Suppression of Criticism
– Perfectionism
– Unbalanced (central focus on minor Christian doctrine)
In terms of looking at spiritual abuse in this way, most of the traits that I see attributed to other religions outside Christianity are not drawn from them to inject into Christianity but are a characteristic of this predictable dynamic. Control necessitates authoritarianism, and this necessitates hierarchy. One of the most obvious ways of establishing any hierarchy involves separating people into classes or groups first. The most basic difference among people is that of gender, and that hierarchy is then projected into families and religious systems. To control a larger group, you then have to create differences among groups of like people to establish a hierarchy among them (if no functional ones exist). Things like membership covenants and leadership positions help carve out that hierarchy to facilitate the authoritarian control.
Another way of looking at the works of the flesh pattern was described by Robert J. Lifton in the eight dynamics that are common of ideological totalism (describing the exact same patterns of spiritual abuse, but in a different way):
– Milieu Control (off limit info and controlled behavior)
– Loading the Language (subtle, surreptitious control of thought)
– Mystical Manipulation (orchestrated events to appear divine, fear mongering)
– Demand for Purity
– Doctrine over Person (redefining personal history and mimicking to fit in)
– Confession (focus on shame/faults, creating faults to fit in and manipulate)
– Sacred Science (leaders and doctrine must always be infallible)
– Dispensing of Existence (God will get you if you misbehave)
No matter whether you’re talking about an ideological political group, a psychotherapy group, an advocacy group, a multi-level marketing scheme, or a religious group, when they go bad, they all manifest these patterns to some degree or another.
It’s not that religions are borrowing these things from another different religions, but that people tend to do the same kinds of things in groups, and manipulation and control is always manipulation and control, no matter how you slice it.
In Patriarchy, it is an outgrowth of the social forces that shaped the times, much of which was hammered out formally in the late 60s and early 70s. What we’re faced with now is just an extension of those older errors. Phillips is next-generation Gothard with some other strangeness mixed in. Mahaney is the cultic People of Destiny. And much of what’s mixed in is a lot of the favor of things that manifested in the 60s in the Presbyterian church that came through presuppositional apologetics and shaped Christian Reconstruction. Mix all that together, and you get a patriarchal fertility cult / national folk religion that is Vision Forum.
I think that you can actually step back and argue that a lot of what built up throughout the 20th Century in Evangelicalism and resulted in some of these things was actually anti-intellectualism or an academically intellectual response to the threat of Modernism and scientific empiricism.
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I don’t think I have the stomach to watch the video that was embedded at the top.
So when Serving Kids in Japan said,
I’m not sure if that is his(her?) summary of what was in the video, or of how some Christians think. But if it was.
I find that Christians really shoot themselves in the foot on many of these topics.
I’ve read time and again, for instance, that the divorce rate is about as high among evangelical Christians as it is for Non Christians. Also, people are not marrying as much, or not as young, as they used to, and not having children or not as many as they once did.
And all that in spite of the non- stop, pro marriage sermons I hear online or on Christian TV, and despite the huge pro-marriage/ pro traditional family unit messages hyped by some conservative Christian organizations, such as Focus on the Family. Christians are still divorcing, not having as many children, and so on.
I have explained this before on older posts on Julie Anne’s blog, so I’ll try to keep this brief, but some of the very reasons why some Christians are not marrying/ having children, etc, is precisely because of (evangelical) CHRISTIAN teachings and attitudes about dating/ kids/ marriage/ gender roles, and NOT due to liberal / atheist/ feminist teachings and influence.
Christians are causing Christians to delay marriage / not marry/ not have children.
And when I say Christians are to blame for Christians being single for years, I do not mean that the issue is Christian parents being okay with their kids delaying marriage to go to college first and get a job…
Telling Christians to marry at 21 years of age before seeking higher ed or a career is not the solution. The problem goes much deeper than that.
As I get older, I grow to appreciate Jesus’ comments about inspecting the speck in your own eye more so than the log in some other guy’s.
Christians need to carefully examine the absolute crud and dreck they are teaching about marriage/ dating/ gender/ singleness, if they want to improve the rates of Christians getting married and having nuclear families.
Instead of complaining about Wiccans, liberals, and feminists, Christians need to examine and re-assess their own views and teachings about dating / marriage/ singles, because they get some things very wrong – things that Wiccans/ Feminists had nothing to do with.
Hyping early marriage (telling kids to marry when they are 21 years old), or complaining bitterly about feminism, or extolling the awesomeness of marriage is not going to fix the problem.
The problems run into the faulty, basic assumptions about gender/ marriage/ singleness and how Christians are teaching and presenting this stuff.
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Patrice said
I really related to several parts of your post, that is one of them.
In some ways, I was very mature for my age. I was a brainy, book smart girl who got good grades in school. I kept up with political news, even in my late teens. I had adult level, intellectual conversations with adults. I was not a stereotypical flighty, giggly teen girl.
But because my parents (Mom especially) hammered it into me to constantly be a sweet, non assertive, Christian girl/woman, that left me immature in other ways… I was always several years behind my peers in socializing.
For example, when I got to my early 20s, my sister began fixing me up on dates with men in their late 20s, for example.
I tried telling her back then it was not a good idea. I could not get her to understand that though I was physically 20 YO (year old), that mentally/ emotionally/ socially, I knew I was more like ten or eleven years old, and you would never set up a 10 YO with a 25+ YO.
I knew when I was 20 YO that a guy in his late 20s could easily take advantage of me and push me around if he wanted to.
I was not stupid or naive in my early 20s – but my Mom had so thoroughly brainwashed me to always submit to others, that it was mean / selfish to have personal boundaries, that had a guy pushed me, I probably would’ve done whatever he wanted…
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Pam wrote,
That is kind of funny, because I have found that a lot of Christian evangelical dating and marriage advice blogs and books assume all or most Christian men (and Non Christian men) are rapists.
The advice to single Christian women is not to be left alone with a single man, because they are incapable or unwilling to control sexual urges. You will be raped if left alone with a single Christian man…. it is implied, if not stated plainly.
The advice I’ve seen given to Christian males is in the reverse: single women are supposedly temptresses AND we all know ALL men ALWAYS have huge sexual desires and can never, ever control their urges, so do NOT ever date a woman!
Seriously, yes, I’ve seen Christian date advice books blogs advise even grown men to NOT meet a single lady alone for coffee, sure as heck don’t go home alone with her, because you just KNOW it will end in S-E-X, because men cannot control themselves!
And a man and a woman will always have sex, because they can’t do platonic junk together like just watch a movie or play a video game or chat.
In my post above, where I said Christian dating advice is what is keeping Christians single? Yeah, that is part of it. Christian dating advice tells singles never to date other singles, because all singles are randy rabbits, and you must avoid any chance of fornication, so you cannot date each other.
Christians do not see how telling Christian singles to stay away from each other could possibly lead to decreased marriage rates among Christians. But then Christians blame Wiccans, liberals, and feminists for lowered marriage rates among Christians. LOL.
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Missdaisyflower (2:40pm): Good for you, recognizing that it wasn’t ok to date beyond your maturity level! That took some self-knowledge and sturdiness. Obviously your mother’s brainwashing wasn’t as effective as intended. W00t!
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Cindy K (2, 1:29pm) wrote: “If they’re declared no longer Christians or officially turncoats, Sande teaches that you can sue them because they are no longer part of the church and were never really your Christian brother.”
So how did that work, legally? Or was it just a lying threat?
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@ Patrice
Thank you. My Mom was a lovely person, and very sweet.
When I said she brainwashed me, her actions were not from malice but out of her own issues and ignorance, she did not know any better (she came from a family where her father was an alcoholic and hit her. She was abused by one or two other family).
I had to also pay the price of my grandfather’s alcoholism in a round about way… and I never met the guy. He died before I was born. But his poor fathering of my mother led to her raising me to have some problems.
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“In Patriarchy, it is an outgrowth of the social forces that shaped the times, much of which was hammered out formally in the late 60s and early 70s. What we’re faced with now is just an extension of those older errors. Phillips is next-generation Gothard with some other strangeness mixed in. Mahaney is the cultic People of Destiny.”
And Geoff Botkin is just taking off where his experience in the The Great Commission cult last left him. Complete with plans to take a bunch of Americans and move BACK to New Zealand, re-create a new form of TGC and install his eldest son Isaac as Prime Minister of New Zealand.
Remember, TGC tried to take over politics in both Maryland here in the US, as well as New Zealand when they were there back in the day.
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Patrice wrote:
Cindy K (2, 1:29pm) wrote: “If they’re declared no longer Christians or officially turncoats, Sande teaches that you can sue them because they are no longer part of the church and were never really your Christian brother.”
So how did that work, legally? Or was it just a lying threat?
No, they sometimes follow through with things.
I wrote an article about this for The Wartburg Watch a couple of years ago, and it flat out says this about 1 Corinthians 6 in Sande’s Peacemaker book. On one hand, Sande defines forgiveness and reconciliation as the same thing. On the other hand, if you don’t play ball, they teach that if you are not living like a believer, you can declare that a person isn’t a believer and then sue them if the mediation isn’t going the way that you’d like.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/05/peacemakers-ministries-true-conflict-resolution/
In the book “The Peacemaker” by Ken Sande, Appendix D lists conditions that Sande believes satisfy a Christian’s right to take another Christian to court. Page 282 states that “if your opponent still refuses to cooperate [with church discipline measures], and if these advisors conclude that your opponent is behaving ‘as a nonbeliever’ and that your action is worth pursing, you may be able to proceed with a lawsuit.”
This is why Phillips endeavored to paint Joe Taylor up as antisemitic at their first meeting and tried to attach Taylor to the kinists. (There was a kinist named Henry who did accompany Joe on digs sometimes, and he encouraged Joe to post to talk about his disappointment with Phillips on the now defunct Kinist website called “Little Geneva” run by Harry Seabrook.) That was Phillips’ moral loophole for trying to take the co-owned Allosaur from Joe, the people who owned the land where it was excavated, and Coral Ridge Ministries now defunct creation science arm. They did all the work and put up all the money, and they used Joe’s grids to plan the excavation. On the day they were ready, Pete DeRosa (working with Coral Ridge and scheming with Doug) wouldn’t let Joe on the site. Then Phillips claimed that he and the homeschoolers found the Allosaur and schemed to get control of it. And they damaged it when they took it out of the ground.
This is also why Phillips threatened to stick Jen Epstein with a lawsuit. I don’t know what is thinking was or his moral loophole was when he threatened to sue David Bahnsen. I think that this occasion was actually just a threat without substance.
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