Doug Phillips & Vision Forum, Homeschool Movement, Patriarchal-Complementarian Movement, Reconstructionist-Dominion Movement, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Spiritual Abuse, Stay-At-Home Daughters Movement, Women and the Church

People Affected by Doug Phillips’s Ministry: What Now?

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Prominent homeschool and Christian leader Doug Phillips has fallen.  What happens with those he has led?  Where do they find their foundation again?

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Homeschoolers Feeling the Ups and Downs of the Doug Phillips Scandal

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A comment came in yesterday and several of you have already left great comments. This morning when I woke up, I was struck with another aspect I see going on and think it is important to discuss. Here’s the original comment from Anonymous:

[EDITORIAL ADDITION, NOVEMBER 17: For those who may be new to some aspects of the patriarchy movement, the acronym FIC stands for Family-Integrated Church. In some of the articles on Doug Phillips, and movements involving homeschooling, Vision Forum, and/or patriarchy, you may also run across NCFIC, which stands for National Center for Family-Integrated Churches. Scott Brown serves as NCFIC Director, and other NCFIC board members are Don Hart and Jim Zes. All three of these men are also on the board of directors for Vision Forum Ministries, which is in the process of being dissolved.]

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Hi Everyone,

I rarely participate in online forums, so I’m really sure how to suggest something without sounding really harsh or offensive, but some people from our church have been reading around the boards looking for some insight as to how we should feel about DPs resignation. It’s a huge deal for many FICs.

I’ve noticed a lot of people suggesting that somehow the female was a victim and DP was a sex offender. Although this issue is a HUGE scandal for the VF movement and patriarchal circles, I don’t really think many people understand how DP is viewed in his community, especially by women.

MANY women revere(d) him. Many young and even married women revered him. To them he was an idyllic father/husband figure. For some women, it’s even easy to cross the line into sin of the heart.

So, I’m not quite sure where the idea came up that DP was a sex offender or that she is a victim of sexual assault. The female involved was engaged in a consensual affair, and she wasn’t underage. Doug Phillips is offensive in so many ways to normal individuals who exist outside the patriarchal realm, and I have no question after watching him speak many times that he has a deeply evil side, but there are women that look to him like a beacon of hope.

And no, the woman involved was not an employee as someone stated about. She was doing service to one of the biggest and most powerful families in her movement. These people were like her family. Why she chose to go down this road may not be as much a mystery as some believe. He painted himself as the paradigm of strong leadership and, if people can think Hitler’s leadership was worthy of following, it’s not hard to see why DP achieved so much attention.

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I’m so thankful that Anonymous commented because I am certain that his/her comment represents many voices of those who have been strongly influenced by Phillips. This is a big honkin’ deal in the Homeschool Movement. It’s shocking. Many people are continuing to read these posts (hit counts on the blog have easily tripled ever since the breaking of the story). I praise God for that. Is there confusion among the camp? I’m sure there is.

If you read through the comment, you might be able to sense the confusion, although I do not believe that Anonymous felt he/she was confused. There is waffling, the blame is shifted to the woman (this commenter also rightly acknowledges some blame with Phillips, but it seems to be minimized).

“I don’t really think many people understand how DP is viewed in his community, especially by women.”

This sentence gives us a picture that says “we really know what is going on within the community, that outsiders aren’t privy to understand.” There is a sense that those of us on the outside and are talking about the scandal just don’t get it. This is part of the spiritually abusive pattern we see so many times. It ties in with the sense of elitism that many experience in spiritually abusive churches.

There are many people reading here looking for answers, looking for how the outside world perceives the situation. They now have a sense that all was not as rosy at it had once appeared. They may still believe the underlying or general messages of Doug Phillips, but the rug has been pulled out from under them. Now what?

For some, reading the words and comments on blogs will be very difficult. There will be anger and even outrage that some are saying such rude or cruel things. Some will say that those commenting against Phillips just don’t get it. Others will connect with some words they are reading and acknowledge there is some truth.

The Doug Phillips Scandal
has Rocked the Homeschool World.

For those who are new to my blog and reading, I want to quickly give a little background. I’ve been a homeschooling mom for 22 years. I am currently homeschooling 2 children – – the last of my quiver of 7. I have thoroughly enjoyed being a homeschool mom (although I readily admit that now I am somewhat tired – hey, keeping it real!).

In the late ’90s, we lived in Virginia. At my church, maybe 10% of the families homeschooled their children. I attended HEAV (Home Educators Association of Virginia). This was the only Christian homeschooling convention I knew of. It had keynote speakers like Mike Farris and Chris Klicka, Gregg Harris, etc. I cannot remember if Doug Phillips at that time was popular enough to be a keynote speaker, but my husband and I heard him several times at the conventions. I was drawn to his message and even bought my husband a series of CDs for fathers/husbands.

I liked what he was presenting and I wanted my family to look like the family that Phillips presented to us. I didn’t quite know how I was going to pull off the Victorian-dress thing, but I figured I could do a lot of the rest. It seemed very godly to me. I held Phillips and his message in high regard and wished that people in my church would get with the program.

Since I’ve been blogging, been privy to many stories of abuse, I’ve been able to see patterns that have been troubling and some have been alarming. These are situations that I never could have imagined before, but after reading the personal accounts and understanding what has been taught in Patriarchy, in the Homeschool Movement, the dots have been connected and now I see it as a system that can breed abuse if power is given to someone undeserving.

I have great compassion and empathy for those of you who are reading and trying to make sense of this. I get it. I was there. I’ve had to slowly shed the extra-biblical teachings and get back to basics.

If there is just one iota of something that you have read here that makes sense and confirms a suspicion, or answers an unanswered question, I encourage you to keep reading. Keep digging. Keep searching for answers. Search the scriptures and see if what has been taught to you lines up.

If you have questions, please feel free to ask here. I will be moderating carefully. I expect that my regular readers will treat you with utmost respect as so many of them have walked in your shoes having left difficult church situations.

If you feel uncomfortable asking publicly, you can also e-mail me (spirituals@gmail.com) or request to join the forum at spiritualsbforum@gmail.com where there is a special area set up for homeschoolers. This forum is private and many people only use their first name or a pseudonym. It is a safe place.

My heart goes out to those of you who are in a state of confusion. I remember that place well. I pray that God will reveal His truth to you and that you will not stop searching until you have that peace that surpasses all understanding.

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photo credit: rachaelvoorhees via photopin cc

159 thoughts on “People Affected by Doug Phillips’s Ministry: What Now?”

  1. Actually, Anonymous is right. So is Julie Anne.

    Paul explained it when he spoke of men that creep into houses and lead astray weak women laden with sins. These women are in fact laden with sins, because they are weak, and they are weak because the lying doctrines of people like Phillips have made them so, so that they might take advantage of them.

    God in no way condemns the weak: “by faith, out of weakness they became strong.” He says to help the weak, and strengthen the weak, and Paul even writes that when he is weak he is strong.

    People on the whole do condemn the weak, because generally that’s what the world and the devil do, and more specifically, John Calvin couldn’t tell the difference between weakness and sin, and his error holds even people who hate him or have never heard of him.

    Anonymous is probably right that Phillips is probably not a rapist or a sex pervert of that sort. He’s a spiritual pervert – notably being in love with domination of others – and it’s just delivering him into sexual sin.

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  2. I would like to ask a question of one of the leaders of this movement: Voddie Baucham. In 2009, Baucham made the following statement:

    A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead they go find a substitute daughter . . . you’ve seen it, we’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.

    So I wonder what Baucham believes Phillips’ affair says about Phillips’ daughters – all young and beautiful. We they not giving their father the proper attention? Was it their fault? It is my hope that people caught in this lifestyle will realize what a poorly built house of cards it all is. If Phillips’ own family doesn’t measure up, how can the rest of us possibly be expected to? It is my hope that people will start putting 2 and 2 together and realize something is very, very rotten in the state of Denmark.

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  3. Julie Anne,
    Thank you for this post.

    For other readers: My family, too, came out of a Patriarchal church. My husband was raised there since a little boy. Rumors of abuse circulated while we were there. Within a few months of us leaving, media reports broke regarding 5 men from the church who were convicted of child molestation- some of it incest.

    It isn’t easy to face the disappointment and disillusionment when confronted with the fruit of these types of ministries. If any of you are like us, you may even have had some niggling questions and doubts prior to Phillips’ scandal. But, you embraced the ideology looking for a more Godly or “Biblical” way to raise your family. That is not a bad thing to desire. Just ask yourself, “Who is really benefitting from this ‘movement?'” There are plenty of shattered families in its wake. Please take the time to read those accounts (you can find some on Homeschoolers Anonymous). Don’t just accept the touched-up, glowing reports that resemble glossy magazine adds selling the latest trendy product. You only get one shot at raising your family. And, at the end of the day, YOU have to own the fruits of your efforts.

    Home schooling still has tremendous benefits if done in a healthy way. You do not have to buy into the Patriarchal trappings in order to do that.

    Whatever you do, never put another man or movement up on a pedestal. It’s idolotry. The Bible takes a very negative view of idols.

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  4. Julie Anne
    I so appreciate that you keep reminding us of patterns of behavior. I am still homeschooling after 18 years and still support homeschooling 100%. I was drawn to VF all these years but after having my eyes opened that I was in a Christian cult 4 years ago (of another sort than VF) I could easily see the signs in DP- power, control, dominance, blame-shifting, charm, slick, creepy.
    Unless people understand these dynamics it is very easy to blame shift onto the victim for her idolatry of the cult leader. But the cult leader wolf is responsible for leading the sheep astray- and that is exactly what wolves do, on purpose, to feed their narcissistic need for attention and control. And so a narcissistic leader who uses his position, charm and power to draw a young woman into an affair IS a sex offender by the very nature of the power imbalance. Isn’t it odd that so many women were drawn to him- normal men don’t have that happen! It’s about DP, not the women.
    Any blame shifting is a sign of one’s mind still being under the influence and unable to see clearly yet- our eyes are opened slowly very often as we process the pain of having been so deceived.
    I agree with BeenThereDoneThat- to anyone who has some doubts about DP and wonders how this could have happened- keep reading and reading and learning about these issues so that you can begin to see how the enemy works in our church though wolves. And then you’ll see that it was inevitable. It’s a painful process of having one’s eyes opened but the freedom is worth it- You’ll see Christ clear as day on the other side.

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  5. His beloved
    you are spot on about the nature of cult leaders and their narcissistic nature. These guys are very believable…….to a point. When exposed to the light though their behavior shows something hideous- the lack of true humility. These men can feign humility, but when their buttons are pushed in the form of confrontation you will see something different, like employing an army of attackers/trolls/devotees to destroy credibility of the one confronting or viciously attack themselves by suits or threats of violence. They can win over crowds with preaching or conferences with seemingly “godly” oratorical skills but there are hidden clues that one can pick up on- excessive talk of tithing, sin, and works; appeals to authority and “guilt laden speeches” of how one needs to do more. Also, excessive gifting of houses and expensive trips, etc. is another clue that these guys are not for real. The Bible has never taught that a preacher will accumulate for himself; the Bible teaches that a teacher must pay for his own welfare- read 2 Thessalonians 3.
    Narcissists accumulate for themselves and CANNOT have empathy for others. Most will not seek help and if they do many pretend that treatment was successful and go on to do more harm.
    They are the ultimate deceiver.

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  6. yup, and until you have been steamrollered, manipulated, ganged up against, ripped apart, shredded (I could go on) by one you really have no idea what it’s like.
    My wish is that fellow believers would listen to us who have the experience so that they won’t have to go through the pain we have to find out the truth about these deceivers.
    But their charm is so compelling. They are angels light.
    And we are just seen as “angry” and “unGodly” while we are trying to help them not be fooled!
    The enemy is so slick.

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  7. I believe the tide has turned and those that are using the church and various para-church organizations / “ministries” to form their own little fiefdoms, where they set themselves up as lord and ruler of the masses will have considerable difficulting on the coming years. The Internet has changed many things in every area of life. I once spent $60,000 a year on yellow page advertising every year. Now the book ends up in the dumpster upon delivery and I’m not even in it. I get more business of the Internet for FREE. The same is true with respect to the issue at hand. There was a time when church leaders could abuse the living daylights out of a person or entire family and just toss them out where they had no means of exposing the misdeeds of leadership. In the pre-Internet day when my incident occurred I was reduced to spending $ 3,000 to mail a very long letter to every member of the church. Today for next to nothing you can respond publicly and address the issue. Abusive clergy and their self absorbed enablers ( normally all cut from the same cloth) had their time when they could hide, those days are over. Doug Philips should have learned this years ago when a member of his church set up a site to address mistreatment after being excommunicated. Now he finds himself in a similar situation after a young woman forced him to confess his illicit relationship. That’s twice now in 6-7 years that women have been a catalyst in Doug’s life. I wonder if that is totally lost on him and if he realizes how very UN-patriarchal that is. Like I would be wondering if it was just God’s sense of humor or maybe another deeper message from on high.

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  8. What few commenters here seem to be aware is a really serious threat. That is, Doug Phillips is a dominionist, much more like his father than he lets on. Dominionism seeks to eliminate the government of the United States and the individual states, and replace them with government by fiat by dominionist leaders. To them, democracy is a tool of the devil. All of your civil rights would disappear in favor of OT law, implemented in Victorian era lifestyles. Check it out. Search for Dominionism and Phillips. See what you find.

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  9. Leila quotes Voddie Baucham as saying, “And instead they go find a substitute daughter . . . you’ve seen it, we’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.” Is Baucham somehow trying to sugarcoat some sort of a pervasive tendency among his fellow travelers to seek out the company of young women who are not their wives? Is Baucham, however unconsciously, acknowledging that men who are enamored of patriocentric, authoritarian principles are inclined to illicit female company?

    Whatever Baucham may or may not be recognizing, where does he get off promoting the notion that these men are finding substitute daughters? How perverse! What they are seeking out are relationships with women who are not their wives. What they are seeking out are substitute wives — that’s right, wives, not daughters. It is called adultery, even if it stops at the level of emotional adultery — and I can scarcely believe that emotional adultery is the usual stopping point.

    I am inclined to think that men who seek out places of authority, including most certainly those who are drawn to patriocentric ideology, are more likely apt to fall, often headlong, into adulterous relationships than are men who are content to humbly and quietly love and serve their wives and families.

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  10. Gary W. said:

    I am inclined to think that men who seek out places of authority, including most certainly those who are drawn to patriocentric ideology, are more likely apt to fall, often headlong, into adulterous relationships than are men who are content to humbly and quietly love and serve their wives and families.

    Ya think this might be the case because the second group of men are ‘actually’ loving their wives and families as intended in scripture verses the first group who seem to be ‘playing the role’ of patriarch 🙂 ? ?

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  11. Make that “versus” instead of verses. The fingers liked the first word better following the word ‘scripture’ I guess. 😉

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  12. Julie Anne writes:

    “If there is just one iota of something that you have read here that makes sense and confirms a suspicion, or answers an unanswered question, I encourage you to keep reading. Keep digging. Keep searching for answers. Search the scriptures and see if what has been taught to you lines up.”

    I bumped elbows with the patriarchy movement for a few years, but thankfully we never became part of it. Although I can’t speak with much personal experience about patriarchy, I am able to talk about a few other movements. I was converted in the early/mid 90’s through the radio ministry of Harold Camping. Yes, the end-of-the-world guy. I spent several years listening to him on the radio, and a year at his church right at the time of his very first end of the world prediction. I also attended an Al Martin style Reformed Baptist clone church. I “escaped” or “survived” those movements. They had many cultic tendencies that had to be worked through.

    What they had in common was very air-tight, complex arguments about how their belief systems were right. But one piece of advice they gave was to not take their word for it, but to check their beliefs out according to the bible. It was advice I took to the extreme, thankfully. Of course, people who had been manipulated by all their proof texts would read the bible and see all the proof texts and think, “hey, they’re right!”

    I also was involved in general circles and churches of people influenced by John MacArthur, and only had a remote connection to the beliefs of RJ Rushdoony, but read his writings quite a bit.

    In all of these situations, there popped up small questions. Questions that came up more than once. I had to have these questions answered. I eventually “saw the light” and had to distance myself from these groups.

    One piece of advice I can give is to read the critics of the theology you hold to. Read them for yourself, not just listen to your leaders’ critique of the critics. Another piece of advice is to read outside your circles. Read them for what they believe and not for what they find wrong with your beliefs. Also read plain, ordinary people who write about their beliefs.

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  13. Thanks for the laugh! “Money for nothin’ and the chicks for free.” Indeed!

    I haven’t heard this song in a very long time, but I seem to have remembered it contained another verse. Sure enough, I found out you posted the version that has a missing verse. Some might say that the original version is even just that much more applicable to Doug. But I’ll leave that for others to sort out.

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  14. T.W. – I only posted part of the YouTube to be safe – I couldn’t remember how safe the lyrics were. I have to say, that song has been going in my mind ever since reading Steve’s post 🙂 haha

    microwave oven and color tv . . .

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  15. This is a big honkin’ deal in the Homeschool Movement.

    It is, but sadly in my neck of the woods the Christians homeschoolers didn’t even mention the affair for almost two weeks and when they did, they went straight to “forgive and forget, he repented” and they appear to be sticking to it. When my mom pointed out that his view of communion is heretical because it puts mediators between women and Jesus, one lady responded that “every denomination is wrong about something.” Facepalm. Heresy isn’t denominational.

    So I have little hope that any large number of these people will wake up and smell the coffee. It may be that all Doug will have to do is sit tight for a few years and then come back “changed.” I hope you’re seeing more sensible reactions than I am.

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  16. LOL, Steve! Does our recognition of the song date those of us from that era? Classic guitar riff. The song is instantly recognizable by the riff.
    It’s true, though. DP’s celebrity status is exactly like that. We used to say the same about the ministers in our former church (cult). They had absolutely no idea what effort it took those with real jobs to support several kids!

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  17. What were the Duggar’s involvement in VF?
    They earned millions for their reality show .
    Would they have financially supported him?

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  18. Hannah – They certainly know each other. Phillips covered the story when she was “mother of the year” and put out a video honoring her. I don’t have any idea if they support the ministry or not. My hunch would be that they do not support the ministry significantly. Duggar’s niche is ATI.

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  19. I still want my MTV (Money for nothing)!!

    SteveScottPew said something that was extremely important. He said: “But one piece of advice they gave was to not take their word for it, but to check their beliefs out according to the bible.”

    Generally, that statement is used as a code to really say, “Trust that I know what I am talking about so that you won’t have to check up on me.” I’ve seen this time and time again, in the Herbert W Armstrong (The United Church of God, especially from a man by the name of Roderick C. Merideth) video’s, as well as other famous cults. And, if you actually do check up on their word, from scrutiny with a fine tooth comb, you will see that these people loath being challenged. They will ignore you, or worse.

    Ed

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  20. My impression of Phillips is that he capitalizes on anything he sees going on in Christendom that fits his world view. The Duggars were a perfect opportunity to honor baby producing and subordination and make bank on.

    DP isn’t intelligent so much as he is ‘crafty.’

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  21. @Hester:

    So I have little hope that any large number of these people will wake up and smell the coffee. It may be that all Doug will have to do is sit tight for a few years and then come back “changed.”

    Just like Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, and Ted Haggard.

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  22. @HisBeloved:

    My wish is that fellow believers would listen to us who have the experience so that they won’t have to go through the pain we have to find out the truth about these deceivers.
    But their charm is so compelling. They are angels of light.

    Sociopaths usually are.
    Until the instant you have outlived your usefulness.

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  23. Given the turn the comments have taken here, I think the comment that I recently posted on Doug Wilson’s blog is especially fitting for re-posting here:

    @Alan D. Strange: “that unless we have intimate knowledge of these matters, and some here may have such, that we can say nothing more of these matters than that we ought to pray for the repentance/sanctification of all parties and the glory of Christ.”

    While repeating the mantra of your peers, Alan, you are to at least be congratulated for doing something none of your peers here have done: you’ve acknowledged the possibility that there could be some people commenting here, and elsewhere, who do have intimate knowledge of Doug Phillips, his character, and the basis for his recent actions. There indeed are, and there are many more of us than you could imagine. Among us are former business associates and partners whom Doug Phillips has defrauded by stealing our intellectual property and products, stealing our customer/donor email lists, former employees who left in utter disillusionment over the unethical practices they witnessed, former VF interns who witnessed first hand the astonishing hypocrisies and viciousness, former BCA members whom Doug has spiritually and emotionally abused, former victims of the philandering, and the many that Douglas W. Phillips has threatened to sue and intimidated into silence. Doug Phillips has accumulated many such victims for well over a decade.

    Thank you Alan for at least thoughtfully considering the possibility that we do exist, which is far more than the non-thinking Stacy McDonald and others of her ilk have been willing to admit. To quote again from her comment above: “My point is we don’t know the back story – mostly because it’s none of our business.” Her position is also a defense strategy, albeit an idiotic one: “I don’t know because I don’t want to know.” I can’t help but wonder where this woman got her education from. One thing is certain — she never took a class in logic.

    “I don’t know anything about it because it’s none of my business, and it’s nobody else’s business because, well, I say so. Don’t ask any questions about it so you too can remain blissfully ignorant like me. I’ve determined to bury my head in the sand and I’m instructing everyone (including men, which I’m not permitted to instruct since I’m into Patriarchy) to pay no attention to what you hear about my friend Doug Phillips. I routinely bash a lot of other people, but that’s okay because they’re bad people and it’s not gossip to publicly criticize bad people. But Doug Phillips is good because, well, I say so, and it you criticize Doug that makes you a hateful gossip who needs to repent of bitterness. I’m a really in-the-know person, and I normally have an opinion about everything, especially about people I don’t like; but that’s not hateful bitterness when I do it, because they’re bad people and deserve it. But Doug Phillips is a great guy and everyone else should like him too. But if you don’t like Doug, keep your big mouth shut and just pray for him. If I don’t know anything about this whole Doug Phillips kerfuffle, and I’m never going to know anything because it’s none of my business to know anything, that means no one else can know anything either. I’m not going to ask Doug or anyone else any hard and embarrassing questions because that would get really embarrassing for me and my husband James since we’ve been close friends with Doug and Beall all these years and we ignored all the warning signs because, well, that’s what good friends do — not say anything while their friends are sliding down the slippery slope of apostasy. So we’d better just sweep this all under the carpet. And since I don’t know anything, I can be 100% confident that Doug’s letter of resignation is sincere because, well, it’s Doug, and if Doug says so we can know it’s the truth.” Stacy McDonald is a case study in Hegelian dialects albeit a Three Stooges version of it, and some of the other comments here follow a similar pattern.

    Unlike Stacy McDonald and her ilk, there are many of us who actually do know Doug Phillips, and we know him very well. We know the backstory with his so-called “repentance.” We know it’s a sham . We know he didn’t “confess” but was busted and forced to confess under considerable duress. We know that he’s already formulated his comeback plan, and we know the predictable outcome is that many thousands of gullible dupes will believe this silver tongued devil and resume sending him millions of dollars per annum, once he’s published his own Jim Bakker “I Was Wrong” book and is “restored.” This Doug Wilson article that served to inspire the so many willfully-ignorant comments here, are proof that there can always be a bright future for religious hucksters and carnival barkers.

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  24. An Attorney:

    ATI is part of Bill Gothard’s “ministry:” http://ati.iblp.org It is a homeschooling curriculum. Families first have to go through his Basic seminar and Advanced seminar (my words may be wrong) before they are allowed to be a part of the ATI program. There is a blog dedicated to exposing the abuses/false teachings: Recovering Grace

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  25. An Attorney, ATI is Bil Gothard’s Advanced Training Institute. Doug Phillips takes some of his doctrines from Gothard. They’re cut from the same cloth, including their mutual penchant for keeping beautiful young ladies as interns. It’s likely that Doug got his idea how to secure free labor through an “intern” program from Bill. It’s also from Bill that Doug got the “authority umbrella” doctrine — daughters are under their father’s authority until dad sells them off (via “bride price”/dowry) in marriage. Doug then extended the doctrine to create Stay At Home Daughters.

    Bill Gothard (and his brother in particular who had to be let go years ago over a nasty sex scandal) has been repeatedly denounced for groping and coming on to women half and even one-quarter his age. At least Bill has never cheated on a wife like Doug has. Bill Gothard has never been married, and that of course qualifies him to be an international authority, fully qualified to lecture hundreds of thousands of Christians on marriage and family.

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  26. I’m just wondering. Remember DP’s sermon on Repentance in August? Could it be possible that he made that sermon under duress at the insistence of the young woman he had the “affair” with, lest she expose his sins to the public or the authorities, in an effort to silence her? And once the sermon was given, she wasn’t satisfied and threatened to make good on her threat? So he chose to beat her to it with his “confession”?

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  27. Oops! I didn’t mean to imply that Doug Phillips also keeps beautiful young ladies as interns, as does Bill Gothard. Doug keeps only beautiful young men as interns.

    Doug’s practice of only having male interns, and all the manly romps, sword play, “hazardous journeys”, and only hanging out with the guys (except when your hanging out at home with the au pairs), has led to considerable speculation that Doug Phillips is gay, although this is speculation I don’t necessarily share. I think there’s another objective Doug has in mind. In Bill’s case the female interns are about sex, or at least sexual tension and stroking his male ego. In Doug’s case it’s strictly about keeping the money pouring in.

    Doug’s boy interns have always been prominently featured in VF blog articles and videos. You’ll never see an example of Doug recruiting a homely, pimply complected, overweight, non-Caucasian intern. Doug’s intern criteria: White male, clear complected, handsome, buff, photogenic. Doug’s interns are there to serve as lady-magnets and eye-candy heartthrobs to loosen up the purse strings of the 80%+ Vision Forum patrons/donors who are women. If 80% of the Vision Forum patrons/supporters were men, you can be sure that Doug would instead have gorgeous young photogenic female interns, instead.

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  28. T.W. Eston, I don’t know who you are, but I think I love you. Sincere thanks for your insights and truth-telling regarding the entire Doug Phillips saga.

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  29. Welcome, Marian!

    I cracked up at first when I read the first part of your comment wondering if you thought this was a Christian dating site 🙂

    You’re right – T.W. Eston’s comments have been very helpful.

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  30. waitingforthetrumpet2, More than your speculation just being a possibility, you’ve pretty much nailed at least a good portion of what compelled Doug Phillips to out himself. It’s called “damage control” by “trickle truth.” Trickle truth, especially when we’re talking about serious betrayals like adultery, almost always have disastrous results, such as what we’re witnessing now with Doug Phillips.

    This was no “repentance.” It was a forced confession. The first release was buggy Beta code, so he had to come back with a second release. Normally a subsequent release remedies the bugs in the prior release. But Doug Phillips appears to have no code writing skills for disaster recovery.

    Let’s hope the Board of Directors takes away the keys to the VFM web site so Doug can’t have a chance at a third buggy release.

    Note to VFM Board and Doug Phillips: An open mouth gathers no foot. For your own good, Doug, shut up and go away forever. Stop being an attention whore.

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  31. So, he thinks he’s shut her up with his “Repentance” sermon, “Confession”, his power and influence over others. Sit and watch to see if she comes forward in spite of this.

    Like

  32. I thought I’d share how we transitioned our kid’s education after exiting our patriarchal church, in case there are others reading who may be facing similar decisions. Since our church’s curriculum was designed to indoctrinate with their world view on everything, we felt we could no longer use it. (After paying hundreds of dollars to the church’s coffers for it!) Also, a minister had confessed to my MIL that most in my husband’s generation hadn’t received a high school equivalent education. One ex-member enrolled her girls in a public school for the first time this year. They all placed 2-3 years behind their peers. So, we knew we needed to make some changes.

    My husband researched an online program called Time4learning. We decided to go with it, because you only had to subscribe a month at a time. We did not have to commit to a full year if we ended up not liking it. I have four kids using this program. My oldest is in 6th grade and my next to youngest is in 1st grade. So far, it has worked out beautifully with a full quiver. I still spend a good chunk of my day helping with lessons, but I can still manage some laundry and cleaning here and there. I’m seeing improvements in math skills, reading, comprehension, handwriting, and spelling, and they are learning science and social studies as well.

    An online curriculum can be a relief for a homeschooling mother with many kids. Just steer clear of the online program from Ron Paul. The director of developement for this curriculum is Gary North, a Reconstructionist and SIL of Rushdoony.

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  33. T.W. Eston, I was delighted to read your description designed for people who mimic the likes of Stacy McDonald. You have captured their harangues to a tee. Your word sketch could be used as a template for future interactions when dealing with those who come across in this particularly annoying and illogical way! Yes, truly chortle-worthy.

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  34. T.W. Eston, that comment that you recently posted on Doug Wilson’s blog is……just WOW…….a thing of beauty!! And yes, as Barb said, “truly chortle-worthy”. I can’t wait to see if anyone dares to respond to it!!

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  35. @AnAttorney:

    What few commenters here seem to be aware is a really serious threat. That is, Doug Phillips is a dominionist, much more like his father than he lets on. Dominionism seeks to eliminate the government of the United States and the individual states, and replace them with government by fiat by dominionist leaders.

    And with their known Male Supremacy and Death to all Heretics, we’re talking “Handmaid’s Tale as How-to Manual”.

    Or Geneva under Calvin. GOD WILLS IT!
    Or Iran under the Ayatollahs. GOD WILLS IT!
    Or Afghanistan under the Talibani Mullahs. GOD WILLS IT!

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  36. @JulieAnne:

    Nooooooooooooooooooooo. trying to get rid of that visual and it’s not working. ACKKKKKK!!

    Because for Quiverfull Reconstructionists, that visual is true. Women are nothing more than Wombs to Outbreed the Heathen. Like the pits beneath Isengard spawning Uruk-Hai. As one Extremist Euro-Mullah put it (for the Islamic equivalent of Quiverfull), “We conquer the lands of the Infidel! Our Wombs shall be our Weapons!”

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  37. @T.W.Eston:

    Note to VFM Board and Doug Phillips: An open mouth gathers no foot. For your own good, Doug, shut up and go away forever. Stop being an attention whore.

    Problem is, to an attention whore, being in the public limelight is his crack and crystal meth all at once. And it doesn’t matter whether the publicity is good or bad. Even negative attention is still attention. Still a fix for the jonesing.

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  38. HUG – – yes, I believe there is truth that wombs are used as weapons in Reconstructionist-land.

    And in doing so, they become a funhouse mirror of the Dark Side of Extreme Islam. And Extreme Islam becomes a funhouse mirror of them. Pure Christian Nation vs Pure Islamic Republic. The only difference is the beards, burqas, and which Scripture(TM) was dictated word-for-word by God — Bible (in Kynge Jaymes Englyshe) or Koran (in classic Meccan Arabic).

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  39. DP’s statement on women in the Military:
    Would this also include Christian nurses and Drs. who enlist believing they are doing God’s will- who care for our soldiers?
    He is not making a distinction here.
    So is our nation being “judged by God” for this?

    “If certain federal lawmakers have their way, your eighteen-year-old daughters will be registered for selective service and drafted for combat by the next war. Many women’s rights advocates claim that Christians have long since abandoned the issue of women in the military. Sadly, far too many pastors and politicians were embarrassingly silent on this issue in the days leading up to the war against Iraq. In this special forum of key theologians and Christian thinkers, we throw down the gauntlet of God’s Holy Word, to proclaim that it is biblically impermissible and a profound judgment upon our nation for men to abdicate their role as protectors and warriors by permitting and perpetuating the practice of women in the military.”

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  40. Ya know, I am a news junkie, and I am a veteran of the US Navy, and I am well versed in politics, as well as religion.  I can say for a certainty that the statement that DP said in regards to the military was “utterly” false.  Women in the military is always a topic of discussion, therefore, no one was silent, and no one was embarrassed either.  I have no problem with women in the military.  Some were my immediate supervisors, and division officers.  And, I might add that my 19 year old daughter is serving in the USN aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt. 

    Who is DP to dictate my own conscience, or that of others?

    Ed

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  41. @ T.W.:

    You’ll never see an example of Doug recruiting a homely, pimply complected, overweight, non-Caucasian intern. Doug’s intern criteria: White male, clear complected, handsome, buff, photogenic.

    That appears to be a perfect description not only of the VF catalog, but also the entire patriarchy movement. I’ve wondered for years if one of the criteria to be a leader in those circles was that your children were all model-gorgeous and never got acne. I.e., the Botkin sisters.

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  42. Per the repentance sermon, my mom (who is still subscribed to a lot of homeschooling sites from when she was in leadership) got a repentance email from VF around the first of Oct. Pretty funny to read now.

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  43. Hazardous journey, LOL I swear if I hear that one more time I’m going to split. Someone posted a picture of Doug swinging through the jungle on vines during one of his Indiania Jones Dress up trips. When I saw that picture I immediately heard that cute little pig from the Geico commercial, wee wee wee wee weeeeeeeeeeeee…..

    When someone as an adult has the need to rewrite the history of the Titanic, dress up in all these weird customs, wear fedoras that went out of style in 1959 to appear like a tough guy, and go on ” Hazardous Journeys” to prove your manhood something is wrong. That should have been his followers first clue as he has taken this all well beyond the typical manifestations of short man syndrome. Growing up in the same area as Doug, I know he always had self esteem issues. That is normally the case when you see someone take credit for other people’s accomplishments like he did in regard to his work at The homeschool legal defense association ( Farris exposed him on that) and the Dinosaur caper. Just google Doug Phillips / dinosaur and tons of documentation with first person accounts of how he does things will blow your mind. Personally I believe all those years of being bullied by kids a couple of grades lower than him had it’s effect. The abused, becomes the abuser. The bullied becomes the bully. Unfortunately he has never received the physiological counseling and treatment that he so badly needed. Left untreated and under no real accountability he just thrived on being the ego driven monster that he has become. His enablers, board members and followers are not blameless in all of this. They should have called him on his abusive ways years ago. There is a long line of destroyed people stretching over a decade because of this evil little man. When he left Virginia he was known in conservative political circles as the evil midget. Most of the people at the Homeschool legal defense association can’t stand the guy. He has been telling tall tales for years about what he did there, taking credit for the dedicated work of many, many people. Unfortunately his followers are not exactly deep thinkers, Doug will lie and they will swear to it. People have never looked into the guy very far and just bought into the well marketed “vision”.

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  44. “You’ll never see an example of Doug recruiting a homely, pimply complected, overweight, non-Caucasian intern. Doug’s intern criteria: White male, clear complected, handsome, buff, photogenic.”

    DW spoke a few years ago at our local homeschool expo and this describes the VF booth exactly. It was a little surreal ~ they (boys and men only) all had the same look. Also, i noticed lots more long skirts then in the past and it seemed to me a much lower attendance. I remember back when I was more involved there was a healthy attendance at our expo and a much broader group of homeschoolers.

    I was one of the only women I saw with designer jeans on 🙂 Definitely felt a little out of place. The whole group has changed quite a bit in these last years.

    Like

  45. Hey now, wait just a minute. I was also in the military. Air Force, 10 years active duty. I get so tired of hearing these people dictating what women can and cannot be allowed to do!

    Like

  46. Just read over that entire comment thread at Doug Wilson’s blog, and I see that our friend SSM weighed in

    It is astonishing to me how many commenters on other sites are using Doug Phillips’ situation to entirely discredit the idea of Christian patriarchy,

    No, the fact that “Christian patriarchy” is an oxymoron discredits that idea well enough.

    Every husband sins. David sinned mightily with Bathsheba, yet that did not mean that David was no longer fit to lead his people or his household, nor did it mean he was no longer able to serve his Lord. David repented, just as Pastor Phillips has.

    Oh, so now Doug Phillips is in the same league as King David? o.O

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  47. “Oh, so now Doug Phillips is in the same league as King David? o.O”
    The King David comparisons come out hot and heavy in situations like this. But just a couple of distinctions— King David already had several wives before he saw Bathsheba– and no one would have thought twice if SHE had not already been married. That’s the way Patriarchy works. David didn’t apologize to Ahinoam, Abigail, Mical etc, nor would anyone have expected him to do so. That’s the way Patriarchy works. Moreover, David *did the right thing* and MARRRIED Bathsheba and had another child with her. A rather important child. Patriarchs can do this. David didn’t dismiss her and dehumanize her as an “inappropriate physical component”. By his “repentance”, Phillips has betrayed many things Patriarchy stands for– choosing to embrace *decadent* cultural values like monogamy.

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  48. Pam, did you quote all of SSM’s comment? I don’t know if I can stomach any more of that stuff. I feel like I need to take an hour-long shower after reading the SSM site.

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  49. Fred Rogers –

    King David would be in jail in today’s context for murdering Bathsheba’s husband and committing polygamy. Is SSM trying to say that DP should be able to get away with the same actions because it was in the Bible? Afterall, If it’s in the Bible it’s all good, right? Where do these people get there logic from. Besides the fact that David ended up with heavy consequences for his acts.

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  50. Barbara Roberts sent me this comment to post for her here:

    The anon reader whose comment was headlined in this post wrote:
    “MANY women revere(d) him [Doug Phillips]. Many young and even married women revered him. To them he was an idyllic father/husband figure. For some women, it’s even easy to cross the line into sin of the heart.

    “So, I’m not quite sure where idea came up that DP was a sex offender or that she is a victim of sexual assault. The female involved was engaged in a consensual affair, and she wasn’t underage. Doug Phillips is offensive in so many ways to normal individuals who exist outside the patriarchal realm, and I have no question after watching him speak many times that he has a deeply evil side, but there are women that look to him like a beacon of hope.

    “And no, the woman involved was not an employee as someone stated about. She was doing service to one of the biggest and most powerful families in her movement. These people were like her family. Why she chose to go down this road may not be as much a mystery as some believe.”

    I respect your attempt, anon reader, to elucidate the way women in VF revere(d) Dog Phillips, but your words “consensual affair. . . she wasn’t underage. . . she chose to go down this road” could imply that the young woman’s sin is just as serious as DP’s. I believe this is a very wrong way to look at it. Even if the woman was not underage when the relationship began (which is a moot point as yet) —and I don’t call it an ‘affair’ because affair implies mutuality and equal freedom of choice by both parties — she was not as guilty as DP, not by a long shot.

    Here is what the Westminster Larger Catechism says about why some sins are more serious in the sight of God than others:
    “All transgressions of the law of God are not equally heinous; but some sins in themselves, and by reason of several aggravations, are more heinous in the sight of God than others.”

    The Catechism lists things which might make a sin more heinous, including:

    the offender is of ripe age, holds an eminent office, or is a guide to others;
    the person offended is someone the offender is related to, or is one of the saints, particularly weaker brethren;
    the offense violates the express letter of the law;
    the offense contains in it many sins, and is not only conceived in the heart, but breaks forth in words and actions, scandalizes others, admits of no reparation, and is done deliberately, willfully, presumptuously, impudently, boastingly, maliciously, frequently, obstinately, with delight, or continuance.

    I’ll let readers draw their own conclusions. Do DP’s qualify as more heinous than those of the young woman?

    And I’ve only put here the characteristics of more heinous sins that I referred to in my video presentation on The Levite’s Concubine (YouTube). There are probably more characteristics listed in the Larger Catechism that would fit Doug Phillips, but I haven’t got the time to research right now.

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  51. @ Julie Anne:

    The wagon-circling we’re now witnessing is similar to the thought process around modesty and rape issues. If a man lusts or sins sexually, it’s the woman’s fault because she tempted him and/or tried to “seduce” him simply by being attractive in his presence. And if he “loses control” and rapes her, then we should view that rape as somehow less bad or more forgivable. So if Doug had an affair, yeah, that’s bad, BUT STILL she WAS pretty and female and in the same room with him. I mean, come on. He’s a MAN, it’s not like they have free moral agency or self-control or the ability to think rationally in THAT kind of situation. /off sarcasm/

    I actually discovered this weekend (hat tip to my friend) that Disney already hit this particular nail on the head years ago. You know it’s gonna be a bad night when it starts with “thank you Lord I’m not like that tax collector over there” and then goes straight into “she’s pretty so my lust CAN’T be my fault!”

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  52. I just did a little googling. I am trying to learn all I can about Augustine, Calvin, Plato, The Dark Ages and the Reformation. I just read this about Augustine, and I’m positive this is where DP (and Calvin) got their distorted views on women:

    “Augustine’s view of sexual feelings as sinful affected his view of women. For example he considered a man’s erection to be sinful, though involuntary, because it did not take place under his conscious control. His solution was to place controls on women to limit their ability to influence men.

    He believed that the serpent approached Eve because she was less rational and lacked self-control, while Adam’s choice to eat was viewed as an act of kindness so that Eve would not be left alone. Augustine believed sin entered the world because man (the spirit) did not exercise control over woman (the flesh). Augustine’s views on women were not all negative, however. In his Tractates on the Gospel of John, Augustine, commenting on the Samaritan woman from John 4:1–42, uses the woman as a figure of the church.

    According to Raming, the authority of the Decretum Gratiani, a collection of Roman Catholic canon law which prohibits women from leading, teaching, or being a witness, rests largely on the views of the early church fathers—one of the most influential being St. Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo. The laws and traditions founded upon St. Augustine’s views of sexuality and women continue to exercise considerable influence over church doctrinal positions regarding the role of women in the church.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

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  53. @T.W.Eston:

    Doug’s boy interns have always been prominently featured in VF blog articles and videos. You’ll never see an example of Doug recruiting a homely, pimply complected, overweight, non-Caucasian intern. Doug’s intern criteria: White male, clear complected, handsome, buff, photogenic.

    Again hammering home the point that God is the God of The Beautiful People (Quarterbacks, Cheerleaders, Beauty Queens, etc) NOT ordinary mortals like you and me.

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  54. @WaitingForTheTrumpet2:

    The laws and traditions founded upon St. Augustine’s views of sexuality and women continue to exercise considerable influence over church doctrinal positions regarding the role of women in the church.”

    Many years ago I downloaded an online essay (from a “Mars Hill”; do not know whether this is Bee Jay Driscoll’s Mars Hill) titled “The Christian Sex Cult” tracing Christian sexual attitudes to St Augustine’s influence. One of the points was that Augustine brought a lot of personal baggage into the mix when it came to women, and you had to take that into account. Specifically, Monica’s son Auggie was a real horndog in his younger days and a celibate clergyman in a monastic environment in his later years. In neither case did he have a chance to interact with women as people — before they were sex objects and afterwards they were Forbidden Fruit. And through his theological influence, his personal baggage influenced Christian sexual morality and role of women for centuries afterwards.

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  55. @Scott:

    That should have been his followers first clue as he has taken this all well beyond the typical manifestations of short man syndrome.

    Wait a minute… Douggie ESQUIRE(TM) is short? Just how tall is he?

    (And didn’t someone once say that a LOT of these Christianese Male Supremacists are short men without much muscle development? For that matter, how tall is that other Douggie, the Penetrate! Colonize! Conquer! Plant! guy?)

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  56. So I’m finding out! This is all new to me, and I’m wanting to learn all I can. I’ve been a Southern Baptist for well over 50 years, graduating from a Baptist College in the 70s, and though I’ve heard the names of Augustine, Calvin, Plato, Socrates, Luther, etc., I’ve never before learned anything about them or their beliefs and doctrines. I must have really lived a sheltered life.

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  57. Headless Unicorn Guy said: “For that matter, how tall is that other Douggie, the Penetrate! Colonize! Conquer! Plant! guy?)”

    You seem WAY more interested in Doug Phillips than we are… (Or: That will really be TMI.)

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  58. This is tangential, Julie Anne, not directly related since it is not about this particular group specifically, but I believe it rather encompasses it – have you seen my most recent post where I linked to a Joshua Harris article about some of the most damaging factors of fundamentalist-inspired homeschooling/quiverfull movement-type families? Not sure if I can post links here, but it’s here if that works.

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  59. That’s fine, Kagi! I hadn’t read your blog post, but I had read Reb Bradley’s article when it was originally posted on Josh Harris’ blog. It’s a great article. It needs to get recirculated again.

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  60. My sister sent it to me, I’m not sure where she found it, but it was really spot on about all the things that I found so hurtful and hindering growing up in that culture. I know they meant well, but that doesn’t make it any less damaging. Intent is not magic, and all that. I sent it to my parents too, because I felt it did a better job of explaning in a less confrontational way than I might be able to manage, but I haven’t heard back from them yet. *wry* Possibly I won’t hear back from them at all, or they still won’t understand, but at least I tried, I guess.

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  61. Children are best served by teaching them, by experience, how to make choices. How to consider alternatives, evaluate consequences of each choice (short and long term), and how to recover from making a bad choice and live with/over the consequences. Children as young as 3-4 should be asked, when they have disobeyed or committed a thoughtless act that has adverse results (harm to someone), to review their choices and why they made the choice they made, what the consequences of their choice are and should be. They will resist, but it is the best teaching a parent can do to prepare them to be responsible decision makers as teenagers and adults. And when faced with a difficult choice, they will hopefully learn as well to consult with others, including a parent, before committing.
    My late 20s son, in a responsible position and earning a great income, recently consulted me about buying the first house he and his spouse will purchase. My 30ish daughter did the same some months ago. I did not tell them what to do, but asked some questions and suggested some issues and strategies for them to consider, suggested resources local to their area that might help avoid problems, etc. I trust that they will continue to make great decisions in life, because they were taught from an early age that life is a process of making decisions, considering and weighing options and consequences, while serving others along the way.

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  62. I agree, learning to think for yourself and make choices by considering all the options and variables is the best thing a child can learn, critical thinking skills and reasoned, weighted decision making based on general ethical principles and consideration of consequences will serve them far better than a rigid list of rules to follow – rules that cannot possibly cover every situation, and will not prepare them to deal with the messy and grey areas of life as they find it when they must eventually go out and face it on their own. Life does not fit into neat little boxes, and neither do people, mostly.

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  63. Julie Anne

    Pam, did you quote all of SSM’s comment?

    Not all of it, but what I quoted was indeed the bulk of it… it wasn’t one of her usual long-@ss screeds.

    @waiting for the trumpet2

    Augustine’s view of sexual feelings as sinful affected his view of women. For example he considered a man’s erection to be sinful, though involuntary, because it did not take place under his conscious control. His solution was to place controls on women to limit their ability to influence men.

    Augustine built upon previous philosophies which have come to be known as mind/body dualism or soul/body dualism. According to Augustine, the soul or mind is closest to God, and the body, which carries the burden of original sin, is furthest from God. Therefore, in order to avoid evil, we must focus inwardly on the mind or soul and control the body lest it lead us astray. Combine that with the dichotomy of gender, with female being associated with the body (emotional, irrational, illogical) and male being associated with the mind (unemotional, rational, logical), and you get the recipe for avoiding evil, which is, controlling the female. Therefore the subjugation of women is justified in the struggle to control the body.

    So I’m finding out! This is all new to me, and I’m wanting to learn all I can. I’ve been a Southern Baptist for well over 50 years, graduating from a Baptist College in the 70s, and though I’ve heard the names of Augustine, Calvin, Plato, Socrates, Luther, etc., I’ve never before learned anything about them or their beliefs and doctrines. I must have really lived a sheltered life.

    I think that their individual philosophies, though sometimes diverging a bit from but yet always built upon each of their predecessors, are so well woven into the fabric that it is taken as self-evident, no need to question it, it’s the way things have always been.

    @Headless Unicorn Guy

    Again hammering home the point that God is the God of The Beautiful People (Quarterbacks, Cheerleaders, Beauty Queens, etc) NOT ordinary mortals like you and me.

    Ever notice how depictions of “evil” persons (the witch with the hairy wart on her long hooked nose, for example) are necessarily “ugly”? And how about that Western depiction of the beautiful, blonde haired, blue eyed Jesus….why, there’s no way he could even remotely resemble one of those dark haired, brown skinned, evil Middle Eastern heathens!

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  64. I’d meant to add (because, y’know, my last response wasn’t quite long enough, lol) that in light of what we now know to be the seat of intellect (the brain or the head) combined with remnants of mind/body dualism “theory” still very much in existence today, makes patriarchalist and complementarian obsession with “Biblical Headship” (i.e., the mind’s authority and control over the body) all that much more pernicious.

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  65. “When someone as an adult has the need to rewrite the history of the Titanic, dress up in all these weird customs, wear fedoras that went out of style in 1959 to appear like a tough guy, and go on ”Hazardous Journeys” to prove your manhood something is wrong.”

    Scott — I would add that when an adult man needs to be a tin pot dictator over his wife and children, constantly demanding their obedience and praise, something is very wrong too. The whole Christian Patriarchy Movement is toxic, and it appeals to toxic men.

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  66. “Ever notice how depictions of “evil” persons (the witch with the hairy wart on her long hooked nose, for example) are necessarily “ugly”? And how about that Western depiction of the beautiful, blonde haired, blue eyed Jesus….why, there’s no way he could even remotely resemble one of those dark haired, brown skinned, evil Middle Eastern heathens!”

    Middle Eastern men are handsome.

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  67. Middle Eastern men are handsome.

    You’re right, I could have worded what I said a little differently (and that’ll teach me to post comments at blogs or forums when I’m pressed for time!), It just amuses me how in Western depictions of Jesus his features are very, well, “white bread”…..one of the “good guys”.

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  68. “Hi Julie! I see you’re battling it out over at Sunshine Mary’s. Quite a bunch, aren’t they?”

    Yes, that was a mistake.

    Oh no, you didn’t go back there after your last escapade, did you?

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  69. Oh no, you didn’t go back there after your last escapade, did you?

    Nooooooo, I did not and I hope to never comment there again. If I do, I hope some of you will spam me with e-mail and say: JA, what are you THINKIN? LOL

    I wish I would have read the site before commenting. Never in my life could I have imagined something like that. It’s like being on another planet (where you need to shower 10x a day).

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  70. The men that comment on Sunshine Mary’s blog are extremely unhappy in their marriages. Sunshine Mary’s own husband cheated on her over 40 times! This is not rumor. She herself stated it. Please see her conversations with Susan Walsh of the Hooking Up Smart blog.

    And yet, despite all the miserableness, these people claim that only marriages where the husband is some macho “alpha” dominant jerk last longer than 5 years. Meanwhile Susan Walsh, whom they’ve all fought with, has been in a happy, loving egalitarian marriage for 25 years now with no cheating or anything of the sort.

    In fact ALL the happy and long lasting marriages I can think of are egalitarian models where the couple works as a team for the good of the family and no one is “submisive” or “dominant”.

    But, this is where what Mary refers to as the “anglo-christo-sphere” merges with the so called “red pill manosphere”.

    Never heard of the Manosphere?

    Check this out;

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  71. Is that blog, advice to a former slut a satire , parody or for real ? If she is serious there is enough there for an entire book. Literally I have the outline in my mind already. I would probably get kicked out of my church for writing it, but hey if it sells it might be worth it. Maybe vision forum could sell my book right next to the one by the Botkins.

    Title : The patriarchal Spanker
    A how to guilde for bringing order to your home with just a few switches or hairbrushes.

    Forward by A couple of Dougs that wish to remain anonymous
    The audio version is available on iTunes for download. Read by Micheal & Debi Perl

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  72. @Julie Anne,

    Nooooooo, I did not and I hope to never comment there again. If I do, I hope some of you will spam me with e-mail and say: JA, what are you THINKIN? LOL

    As I still lurk there on occasion, I will endeavour to spam you with email if I see you commenting there! Though I must admit, some good does come of lurking there, as otherwise I may not have found this blog! LOL

    @Scott,

    Is that blog, advice to a former slut a satire , parody or for real ?

    That blog is real, it’s SSM’s initial blog which she shut down when, apparently, a commenter revealed SSM’s real life identity. After a period of some consideration and discussion with her Headship, of course, it was decided that she would open a new blog but not cloak herself with anonymity. The advice to a former slut is just one of many posts from that blog.

    The audio version is available on iTunes for download. Read by Micheal & Debi Perl

    Maybe then you ought to add quarter-inch plumbing line to the accoutrements of the patriarchal Spanker.

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  73. @ Ri Ri:

    Don’t have time to watch the Manosphere video as I have to get in the shower, but does this have anything to do with Men’s Rights people / blogs? They use the words “alpha” and “beta” too. They also happen to be a perfect front for abusers. I worry about the women who are involved in Men’s Rights as most of them have probably been abused or seem too gullible / trusting to spot abusers.

    Per SSM’s blog, all I had to read was the post about how sexy and phallocentric the Ypsilanti water tower was and how Christianity should be like that, and I knew it was all gonna be downhill from there. Terrible arguments, too. “There’s nothing more phallocentric than a vagina.” Tish tosh. I could turn that around and say there’s nothing more vaginocentric than a penis and it would apply just as much. I guess that means women should be in charge?

    I’m actually beginning to wonder if the patriarchal women’s blogosphere wouldn’t be a fruitful blogging / mockery opportunity (though I suspect Scarlet Letters would be swamped with trolls shortly afterward if I did). I also once caught one of them saying that women have to earn their husband’s love through obedience.

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  74. I have been following what has been going on because we have a family within our “family” that apparently is deeply involved with DP and BCA. I say they are in our family, but 95% of us never communicate with this family because we don’t agree with what they are doing, and we are of a completely different mindset. And, they haven’t ever seemed to want to reach out to us…I’m assuming they think we are all going to hell and they have created their own big family in the church.

    There have been marriages and deaths in our family, so I have had the opportunity to be around Doug Phillips for short times over the years. He inserted himself in these situations, and to me, came across as the biggest used car salesman I’ve ever seen. As soon as I see him, I’m repelled because because my instincts tell me he’s not real. Everything about him screams stay away.

    Am I the only one that thinks this? And, a big question for me is, does he actually believe what he is saying? Or is it a giant scheme to make money?

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  75. One more thing that haven’t seen discussed…this religion or movement seems to push men into working for themselves. To be considered high up, you have to own your own business. Pyramid schemes are not off limits…I’ve been solicited. The whole thing is based on sand.

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  76. Jim D. said: “this religion or movement seems to push men into working for themselves. To be considered high up, you have to own your own business.”

    And God say: Gal 3:28 … there is not here servant nor freeman … for all ye are one in Christ Jesus; Thank God (literally) that he does not judge people by who they work for (or their wealth or their gender or race, for that matter).

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  77. One more thing that haven’t seen discussed…this religion or movement seems to push men into working for themselves. To be considered high up, you have to own your own business.

    Gregg Harris (a Homeschool Movement pioneer and also someone who started family-integrated churches in Portland area) really pushed this idea over the years. The implication was that you were a less-than if you worked for someone else.

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  78. As soon as I see him, I’m repelled because because my instincts tell me he’s not real. Everything about him screams stay away.

    Am I the only one that thinks this? And, a big question for me is, does he actually believe what he is saying? Or is it a giant scheme to make money?

    I think they have convinced themselves that this is the right path. All these guys are looking for a path that gives the appearance of being one step above, more pure, more correct than everyone else. The very odd thing is many of these guys resort to un-Christian behavior to achieve these goals: stealing intellectual property, suing people, acting like bullies

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  79. I’m actually beginning to wonder if the patriarchal women’s blogosphere wouldn’t be a fruitful blogging / mockery opportunity (though I suspect Scarlet Letters would be swamped with trolls shortly afterward if I did).

    After I did my first post on spanking – – and it might have been the regarding the Sovereign Grace lawsuit in which a man was allegedly spanking a woman past the age of majority with her panties down – – I get people finding my blog through those kinds of searches. yuck

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  80. As I still lurk there on occasion, I will endeavour to spam you with email if I see you commenting there! Though I must admit, some good does come of lurking there, as otherwise I may not have found this blog! LOL

    Well okay, then, I guess that is some good 🙂 So glad to have your participation here, Pam.

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  81. Is that blog, advice to a former slut a satire , parody or for real ? If she is serious there is enough there for an entire book. Literally I have the outline in my mind already. I would probably get kicked out of my church for writing it, but hey if it sells it might be worth it. Maybe vision forum could sell my book right next to the one by the Botkins.

    I’m not sure if there is a book out there like that, but a credible source told me that some churches with some well recognizable names routinely have “heads of household” meetings in which they discuss men taking control of their wives by use of “Christian Domestic Discipline.” :::::gag::::: And yes, this would be within the Doug Phillips circle of Patriarchal friends.

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  82. Ri Ri, I’m not planning to click on the link. By recent comments it defends wife-beating. If I leave aside how triggering that is for me, my opinion of that is summed up in:
    “Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness…”
    By the name of the article it is from manosphere theory that says: “Men with few sex partners are betas. They are unwanted by women and their marriages won’t be likely to last, unless they take advice from the sleep-around guys.” But that is statistically untrue: http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/09/alphas-betas-and-marital-status.html
    Men with few partners are much more likely to find a marriage partner and to stay married.
    They manoshere also vastly over-estimate the importance of sexual attraction to women, often assuming the main reason women choose to divorce is because they don’t enjoy the sex any more. The most common reasons women give for divorcing is actually other things.
    (PS: I wonder what Raincloud Mary recommends for the guy who slept around, but who married a good, stable woman with little or no sexual experience who keep the house and organize his affairs well, and who is not sexually attracted to her? Somehow, I don’t think her advice will be the same.)

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