Supporting Survivors of Doug Phillips’ Apostasy, Part 2

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Taking a look at a business and legal analysis involving the Doug Phillips [alleged] sex abuse scandal in an effort to help survivors.

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T.W. Eston posted another comment on an earlier post and I whisked it into this blog post so it will be easier to follow the flow of comments.  I want to make clear that this comment is from an anonymous poster.  I do not personally know who this person is, but whomever this person is, a lot of time, effort, and research was put forth into putting this information together.

Because of the lengthy comment, numbers were added to the paragraphs.   It might be easier to refer to the number rather than quote the whole paragraph.   I’d especially welcome comments from those who have business/legal knowledge.  Of course,  whatever said here in this blog should never be taken as legal advice or counsel, but as general information.

I have added boldface to some sections to highlight the information there. If you read just those sections, you should have a good overview of the main points.

Also, special care will be taken in moderating this particular thread for comments that do not pertain to the topic.  While this article specifically addresses the Doug Phillips scandal, the information can be pertinent to other survivors as well, and we do not need to add any confusion to the difficult situation they might be facing by going off-topic.  Thanks for your help in this regard.  ~ja

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T.W. Eston

NOVEMBER 15, 2013

1. In keeping with the “Supporting Survivors of Doug Phillips’ Apostasy” theme, I offer up some business and legal analysis of the situation that I trust will be helpful to the Doug Phillips’ sexual abuse victim(s) (where there’s one there’s usually more).

2. I appreciated seeing this comment about the BlueBehemoth.com Terms Of Sale. It got me thinking about some very important legal issues in this Doug Phillips sex scandal, and why we probably haven’t heard from Doug Phillips’ victim.

3. The legal language in the Blue Behemoth (owned by wholly owned subsidiary of Vision Forum Inc) TOS includes, “you expressly waive your right to file a lawsuit in any civil court”. Such language is referred to as an ADR, or Alternative Dispute Resolution agreement. Such terms do serve to reduce lawsuits, but only because most people are unaware that they can be easily challenged and defeated as “adhesion contracts”.

4. Segue now to Doug Phillips’ sexual victim (or victims): if she was an employee, she would have had to have been employed directly by Doug and Beall Phillips. Based on what Jen has said on her blog before, female domestic hired help, like the nannies and maids, couldn’t have been contract employees of Vision Forum Inc or Vision Forum Ministries because, as the Bible clearly states: “Wives and daughters can’t work outside the home unless they’re goyim contracted through a temp agency.” (1 Douglas 2:7)

5. It’s unlikely that Doug would have had any formal written employment contract in place with the domestic labor. Any financial compensation would have been cash/under the table. No SSNs requested or required, no W-2 or 1099, no tax withholding, no citizenship or work permit verifications, no workman’s comp. For an attorney Doug plays very fast and loose with the law. Some of Doug’s domestics were probably paid (gardeners, maids, etc), but a few of the nannies may not have been paid. It was considered a great honor to live in poverty while working for no compensation for the six-figure income Douglas Winston Phillips, Esq. family (The 13th Amendment abolished involuntary servitude; but voluntary servitude for cult leaders is still legal).

6. Multiple agencies of government take any claims by former employees of employer fraud (such as being underpaid for the work done, or not paid at all) very seriously. He potentially faces investigations by IRS, SSA, INS, Texas DOR, Texas Workman’s Comp, and a few others. This puts fast and loose Doug on the horns of a dilemma: if the hired help that he sexually abused ignores the terms of the ADR sues him for sexual abuse, sexual harassment in the workplace, etc., does Doug legally challenge the lawsuit by whipping out the signed ADR, thereby handing over to the court a vital piece of evidence that only helps to further establish that the employer/employee status, opening himself up to employer fraud claims, and the certain government investigations that go along with it, or does he let the lawsuit proceed to avoid being put even further under the government microscope? Irrespective, claims of sexual abuse are criminal anyway and criminal acts aren’t within the purview of out of court resolution by mediation.

7. If Doug Phillips’ sexual predations commenced while the young lady was under the age of consent (17 in Texas), Doug is in especially hot water because Texas has no statute of limitations for such crimes.

8. Another consideration is that Douglas Phillips probably included Non-Disclosure Agreement language in the ADR contract, the violation of which would entitle Doug to sue for damages. This could be the most important factor in why we haven’t heard from Doug’s sexual victim(s). They’re under the impression that they can’t publicly tell their story because they signed a contract stipulating to keep confidential anything that happens in the workplace. I’ve heard more than one story of how Doug legally threatens people, but then agrees not to sue them if they sign an NDA. As I understand it this is what he did to Joe Taylor. However, Doug’s employment NDA (if there even are any signed NDAs), are no more legally binding, at least in this case, than the ADR language is in Blue Behemoth TOS.

9. However, what Doug can do, and what I believe he likely has done, is to give a large cash sum to the sexual abuse victim in exchange for buying her silence. That silence would be legally secured with a Settlement contract that included Non-Disclosure language. She would then be legally bound to say nothing to anyone. If she did go public Doug could sue her for breach of contract, and the Settlement contract probably has a monetary figure stated for what she would have to fork over for violating the contract.

10. The longer Doug’s victim remains silent the more probable it is that she was paid off. It also makes sense that, if there was a payoff, it subsequently leaked to the VFM Board Of Directors. The board members would have been smart enough to immediately commence a thorough financial audit because, generally speaking, where there’s one payoff there are usually more, not to mention a lot of other financial frauds. It would take something of at least that magnitude, as a bare minimum, to compel the board to dissolve VFM. Ministry boards never dissolve a ministry just over an affair, especial a ministry that brings in as much revenue as VFM has done.

11. We may never hear the real story from the young lady herself. However, her contractual agreement to not speak does not preclude her immediate family members, close friends, or anyone else she’s told prior to her having signed an NDA, from telling her story. It’s all fair game, and those other persons are free to come forward and share. They should only do so, however, with the young lady’s approval and not disclose anything she doesn’t want disclosed. If they’re worried about potential legal retaliation from Doug Phillips, they probably shouldn’t be.

12. Though Doug has threatened to sue many people before, to my knowledge he’s never actually gone to trial with anyone. Furthermore, I just can’t see his doing something like that, especially now. A lawsuit would only further substantiate his unrepentance and he’d suffer just that much more public scandal for it. A lawsuit of that nature would be very big news in all the secular and Christian media. Doug could never recover from it. Furthermore, a lawsuit would mean being forced under Discovery to bring out all his dirty laundry. There is no way he’d ever go there.

13. But if even after this explanation someone remains fearful about potential legal threats for coming forward, stories can easily be told in confidence and anonymously.

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89 comments on “Supporting Survivors of Doug Phillips’ Apostasy, Part 2

  1. Julie Anne, an observation:

    With friends like T.W. Eston, you shouldn’t be worried about your enemies. . .
    smile. . .

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  2. I’d just like to say that Point 9 is what Scientology has done to some of its ex-members in the past. For example: Gerald Armstrong was supposed to be L. Ron Hubbard’s biographer, but he got fairly disgusted by what he learned. He and Scientology went around in circles, and Scientology got him to sign one of these contracts. He was paid a significant chunk of money (over $800K, which in the ’80s was a lot of money) and in exchange he was supposed to shut up. Armstrong didn’t. He gave away the money (he’d become a Christian) and he published the stuff he had, including something called the “Affirmations.”** Armstrong, a Canadian citizen, used to live in California but is currently resident in British Columbia because of his violation of the agreement. Scientology sued him for the return of the money, and, I also believe, liquidated damages per the agreement. Armstrong doesn’t have the money to give back and, if he comes into California, can be held in contempt of court and jailed.

    So yeah, this is *serious* business.

    **Absolutely NOT recommended for reading by anyone, they’re disgusting.

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  3. Very helpful analysis. I’ll add one point, while making clear that I’m not an attorney and this information shouldn’t be construed as legal advice. If Mr. Phillips’ victim signed a contract with a non-disparagement or non-defamation clause, she should be able to tell her story publicly without breaking the contract. In a legal context, disparagement and defamation involve making a false statement. Victims can still share their true stories.
    As a survivor of clergy sexual misconduct, my settlement with my former church included a standard non-disparagement clause. When I revealed my offender’s record to the next church that employed him, the attorney for my former church sent me a warning letter. I pointed out that I had only shared the facts — and only the facts my church had already promised to disclose. Apparently I called their bluff, because I’ve never heard back from them. I am still careful when I write about my offender; I share only the facts I need to support the point I am making. I write freely about how his actions affected my life, but I reserve my personal opinions about the man himself for private conversations with family and friends.
    The freedom to tell my story has been critical to my healing. I hope Mr. Phillips’ victim(s) will find a way to claim this freedom too.

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  4. Regarding labor–if you were one of the wives or daughters who worked for Doug Phillips or for Vision Forum Inc. because your husband/father worked there, you should have been paid at least the minimum wage for your labor. Doug Phillips’ beliefs regarding women’s labor are literally medieval and against the law. You will need to document your claim and check with the state of Texas to see what documentation is required. However, since it’s fairly apparent that VFM and VFI are circling the drain, I’d get your claim in before they disappear completely, since you are creditors.

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  5. Catherine,

    The freedom to tell my story has been critical to my healing. I hope Mr. Phillips’ victim(s) will find a way to claim this freedom too.

    Thank you for sharing your experience and your excellent and helpful comment.

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  6. @SWDiscomfort:
    Because when a company is circling the drain, all the Top Management WILL have their hands elbow-deep in the till, trying to clean it out. Then they suddenly file bankruptcy by surprise for “protection from creditors”, “creditors” meaning YOU. Top Management gets away with all the company money and their perqs and titles, while you get NOTHING. This happened to me in ’82. (Us peons found out when the company’s creditors pulled up moving vans and started repossessing stuff right off the shop floor.) The company DID considerately offer vanpools to the unemployment office for rank-and-file employees; otherwise it was “Talk to Our Attorneys”.

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  7. #8 and #9 seem very plausible to me.
    Re: #4 and #5, in my former Patriarchal church it was considered “service to the Body of Christ” for a SAHD to serve as a nanny or maid to one of the several minister’s families. As a young friend of mine put it (who is also a former member) she became a slave for one of the leader’s families, and was expected to do it for free as part of her “service.” My husband and I actually hired the same young woman to help us with housework for a season. We paid her a salary and filled out tax forms for her employment. That was NOT the case with her service to the leaders. So, it’s very likely that the Phillips’ nanny was not a hired employee. My reasoned guess is that she was serving her church and pastor’s family in that position for free.

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  8. Julie Anne made a few edits to my comments, no doubt for brevity, which I welcome. However the edits may have also inadvertently removed some important context, as well as definitions:

    ADR = Alternative Dispute Resolution
    NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement

    It’s likely that VFM and VFI employees are required to sign such agreements. Doug may also require such agreements from his domestic laborers, as well.

    NDAs are standard terms as part of any Settlement Agreement in exchange for a cash offer to remain silent (a payoff).

    Looking at the ADR terms in the Blue Behemoth Terms Of Sale is indicative of the language that would also probably be used in any of Doug’s employment terms, whether in his business and ministry, or in his home. However, it’s important to remember that ADR terms are non-binding where any criminal activities have occurred and can be ignored. A crime is not at all the same thing as a civil “dispute”.

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  9. I believe that the victim in this case can always report the crime, if there was a crime, to the appropriate authorities (police, DA), and if there was an NDA and money was paid to her, that can be treated as an additional offense.

    I also believe that the victim should have independent legal counsel, and if she did not, then many NDA type agreements can be voided, particularly if there was an attorney on the other side and she was discouraged from having her own attorney.

    N.B. for all who are presented with a situation in which you are asked to sign (or have signed) a document that limits your right to sue, to disclose, to speak out, etc. Get an attorney to review and advise you. You may be surprised at your options and the potential rewards that can be achieved by doing so.

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  10. T.W. Eston,

    You indicate an ADR agreement would not be binding in cases of criminal activity. Would the same be true as to an NDA contained in an employment agreement?

    Are there some classes of civil claims where a NDA and/or an ADR agreement in an employment contract will not be enforceable? For example, what about a federal civil rights claim based on sexual harassment by an employer?

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  11. T.W. Eston,
    Thank you for putting this information out to give us a better understanding of what is likely playing out behind the scenes.
    In reading the ADR clause at Blue Behemoth, it appears to be an agreement between the two parties to settle all disputes via mediation instead of a lawsuit. (Am I understanding this correctly?) My husband also has such a clause in his construction contracts. I believe they are becoming more common these days in our lawsuit-happy culture. I did not realize that a NDA could be part of that. What you are saying is that these agreements do not apply when CRIMINAL activity has transpired. In that case, the victim should feel free to use the court system to pursue justice even if an NDA was included in the ADR.
    However, a NDA IS binding if the victim has already accepted a cash settlement in return for silence.
    I’m sure I’ve just rehashed what you’ve already said. I just want to make sure I understand clearly. If Phillips’ victim has received no such cash settlement, then she should be free to take legal action if Phillip’s conduct falls under what would be considered criminal, correct?

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  12. I see our resident attorneys chimed in while I was typing my comment. Thank you. I hope this is clear for all people who may be victimized by DP or VFM.

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  13. Some more questions I don’t know the answers to:

    If a minor is “privileged” to provide services to church or ministry leadership, do they have legal capacity to do so on a voluntary, unpaid basis? Does the minor’s parent or guardian have the legal ability to compel a minor to provide involuntary services outside the family home? If not, and if a parent compels a child to provide unpaid services to church or ministry leadership, is the parent guilty of civil or criminal child abuse?

    If the child does not serve a ministry, church or church leadership voluntarily, whether by reason of incapacity to consent or by reason of actual objection to such service, can the Fair Labor Standards Act or other similar state wage and hour laws be invoked? In such a case, where does the prohibition against involuntary servitude come into play? In answering these questions, does it matter whether the involuntary service was rendered directly in promotion of a church or ministry’s mission, on the one hand, or to church leadership, personally, apart from pursuit of the church or ministry’s mission?

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  14. If the woman was under the age of 17 which is the age of consent in Texas there would be a violation of State law. However if she is under 18 and was taken on trips and transported across states lines and any contact occurred at that time, then a federal violation occurred under the Mann Act. Tony Alamo, a former pastor is currently serving 175 years for violation of the Mann Act. Just this year we watched pastor Jack Schaap of Mega church First Baptist Church of Hammond Indiana go down in flames and receive a sentence of 12 years for violations of the Mann Act. He drove a woman that was of age in Indiana across State lines ( a few miles into Chicago several times and into Michigan on other occasions) and had sexual contact with her. She was under the age of 18 which resulted in his arrest by the FBI and prosecution under the Mann Act. Literally one week the local prosecutor was saying there was no violation of law and the next the FBI was searching his home and office and arresting him. Texas law is not the only factor in this horrible matter.

    If Doug Philips personally paid for silence and there was a violation of state or federal law which he was seeking to hush up, an additional crime was committed. He could be charged under Texas state statutes for obstruction of justice or under Federal law for bribery, conspiracy to obstruct Justice, or even under the RICO ACT ( RACATEERING and influenced criminal organization act). Additionally people forget there is a civil side of the RICO Act . Individual donors could sue philips, vision forum ministries and It’s board of directors individually if ministry funds were diverted to fund a hush payment. If a criminal violation under state law or the Mann Act occurred and the board failed to report it, paid or had knowledge of hush money being paid , covered it up or in any way obstructed exposure to the justice system they could be charged criminally or sued by victims and/ or donors.

    A poster here claimed that the relationship started at least 10 years ago when the woman was under the age of consent. If that is the case please realize she is very much a victim, in need of protection and contact the Texas state bureau of investigation. If she was in fact taken on trips and violations occurred on these trips that violate the. Mann Act please contact the local field office of the FBI. Do not be fearful of the process, capable people are there to handle these matters. If you feel more comfortable talking with another woman, policy mandates that a female agent is brought in.

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  15. The Texas State Bureau of investigation: 6502 South New braunfels Ave San antonia Texas 78223 Telephone 210-531-4313

    FBI field office San Antonio 210- 225-6741
    5740 university heights blvd.
    San Antonio, Texas 78249
    The SAC (Special agent in charge ) of the office is Amando Fernadez
    Assistant agents
    Asvaldo Alaniz
    Richard Davidson
    Daniel Powers
    Aaron Rouse

    All very good people and ready to help.

    Anyone with knowledge of Tax offenses, payroll taxes not being paid ( off the books labor) or ministry money being used inappropriately, especially for hush money please contact: The IRS criminal investigations division at 1111 Constitution Ave NW Dc 20224

    Write to the attention of Richard Weber Chief of criminal investigations or Patricia Haynes, Deputy chief of criminal investigations unit.

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  16. I think it’s worth noting that there are men and women willing to come to the aid of this exploited woman – I am impressed and encouraged by this outpouring. I am fervently hoping she has sensible, intelligent, caring people (such as those of you commenting) around her. Julie Anne, you attract good people!

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  17. EEOC v Waffle House US, 2002) found that an arbitration agreement did not limit EEOC’s jurisdiction to bring an action for back pay and other relief, even though arbitration is generally favored. An analysis by a law firm that was highly displeased by the decision:
    http://www.gibbonslaw.com/news_publications/articles.php?action=display_publication&publication_id=685

    In general, Waffle House gives agencies freedom to investigate and pursue remedies regardless of what the employee might have signed away. I think it would be safer to have someone who didn’t sign the contract actually drop the dime, but once the investigation is initiated, the employee is free to cooperate. Obstruction of justice is near, if someone then tries to interfere, and any kind of intimidation likely constitutes retaliation.

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  18. The mentions of intimidation and retaliation bring up some additional questions.

    Given how the alleged victim is apparently known in the related church and/or Vision Forum movement, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that people who are not directly related organizationally to Vision Forum Ministries or Vision Forum Inc. could still engage in intimidating acts. Those could be motivated completely by their own anger or opinions, or even thinking they are doing something “good” within their presumably “biblical” but extreme form of church discipline and shunning … something like that. Given the seemingly hard-core and very harsh nature of this movement’s theology, attempting to achieve silence by instilling fear doesn’t seem so far fetched.

    So, I was wondering about the status of anyone who is NOT involved in an official capacity with any relevant businesses, churches, or non-profit agencies in this particular situation. If they were to intimidate/harass a victim of either sexual abuse or of illegal business practices, how does that play into legal issues such as criminal actions and potential civil litigation scenarios? And what kinds of rights and legal protections would there be for the recipients of such actions?

    Thanks …

    [Comment updated at the request of brad/futuristguy to clarify his points.]

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  19. If there even is a nanny and if this is not a lie of subterfuge to cover up something greater, and I hesitate to comment because I think the negative attention feeds these people. But…

    At one point in time, the housekeeper mother, her groundskeeper son, and her nanny daughter served the Phillips Family in their home for free, though I guess that they were taken on trips as gratuity. Their own patriarch’s vision was to serve Doug’s vision, so dad sent his whole family there to serve Doug. Unless something changed from the old days, they were not, nor were they ever, employees.

    I have heard that his home in Boerne/Sisteredale was actually deeded to Vision Forum, so that explains much about why Doug doesn’t want to relinquish the business if this is true. (That’s probably how they justified paying for the trips for their domestic help — very likely using VF money.) Investors may not want him to benefit from ownership of the business if it means retaining the home (taxes for which exceed what many in San Antonio pay annually for housing).

    And though Doug may never have filed suit against someone in a courthouse anywhere, he uses and abuses the “Christian” mediation system for intimidation, manipulation, and personal gain. He also uses it to gain the upper hand with those with whom he contracts for goods to sell. He has threatened to sue ministers and ministries in the past. He’s also pursued the mediation process and forced collection through the court for what he claims was a violation of mediation terms to strip people of their professional property and their livelihood (though I understand that he used Pete DeRosa in that to keep his own hands looking clean).

    If Jesus said that it was sin to merely lust, as much as adultery was a sin, what of legal threats and devouring people through legal mediation? And if you never sue people and can be counted on not suing them, why do you make threats of such?

    Screenshot this while you can:
    http://www.raisingthetruth.com/

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080915043220/http://www.undermuchgrace.com/index.php?p=1_24_Legal-Action-Critics

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  20. #9
    “The Spiritually Abusive Relationship” by Patricia Evans (she was on Oprah 1992-check her out on Youtube)

    I would recommend any Christian that has been spiritually abused by a pastor to read it. I have spoken with her on the phone.

    She is right on the money in re: to the tactics an abuser uses to control his victim.
    Not specifically on church abuse, but she did include a paragraph on it.
    She knows her stuff on abuse. It fit my church abuse to a “t”.
    And most of abusive is verbal. It is done in words. To demean, to threaten, to control, to attempt to make one think they are imagining things.

    I hope the (alleged) victim, if she is being paid off sees this is just another tactic of control and abuse.
    My prayers are with her and Mr. Phillips wife who has been abused (allegedly).

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  21. Yes, I was considering typing in the part on church abuse. I think everyone who has been abused in church would agree.
    She has a website and a blog. I happened to call her phone number listed and she had just been on a radio show and was having her morning coffee so she took the call. She also has a book called “Controlling people” that is also very enlightening.
    She spoke with me an hour. She says she charged 100.00 an hour for counseling and I think that is kind of cheap. I didn’t pay but was glad to have my feelings confirmed by her , since I really did think I was going crazy after leaving my church.

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  22. Remember that as a Christian, we are not supposed to have “feelings”.
    We are just supposed to go by “facts” according to the Word of God. Very dangerous. Especially in abuse

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  23. Hi Everyone,

    I rarely participate in online forums, so I’m really sure how to suggest something without sounding really harsh or offensive, but some people from our church have been reading around the boards looking for some insight as to how we should feel about DPs resignation. It’s a huge deal for many FICs.
    I’ve noticed a lot of people suggesting that somehow the female was a victim and DP was a sex offender. Although this issue is a HUGE scandal for the VF movement and patriarchal circles, I don’t really think many people understand how DP is viewed in his community, especially by women.

    MANY women revere(d) him. Many young and even married women revered him. To them he was an idyllic father/husband figure. For some women, it’s even easy to cross the line into sin of the heart.

    So, I’m not quite sure where the idea came up that DP was a sex offender or that she is a victim of sexual assault. The female involved was engaged in a consensual affair, and she wasn’t underage. Doug Phillips is offensive in so many ways to normal individuals who exist outside the patriarchal realm, and I have no question after watching him speak many times that he has a deeply evil side, but there are women that look to him like a beacon of hope.
    And no, the woman involved was not an employee as someone stated about. She was doing service to one of the biggest and most powerful families in her movement. These people were like her family. Why she chose to go down this road may not be as much a mystery as some believe. He painted himself as the paradigm of strong leadership and, if people can think Hitler’s leadership was worthy of following, it’s not hard to see why DP achieved so much attention.

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  24. Just getting back in. I probably won’t have time to answer all the questions that have been raised here, especially legal questions that don’t appear to be specifically related to the immediate topic.

    @nowoolovertheeyes: Thanks for your clarifications. That’s very helpful, although I’m sure you can appreciate that the issue of the young lady’s age at the time the affair started will need to be corroborated.

    @nowoolovertheeyes: Please clarify another point: My understanding is that the young lady, as well as some of her family members, traveled with Doug and his family on numerous out of state and overseas Vision Forum trips. The young lady watched after Doug’s children on these trips and was financially compensated for those trips. Her travel expenses were covered as well. Do you know if Doug paid for those travel expenses out of his pocket, or were her and her family members’ travel expenses paid for by Vision Forum Ministries and/or Vision Forum Inc.?

    As to her employment, that already seems well settled because Doug Phillips doesn’t ever permit women to serve as paid employees at Vision Forum Inc or Vision Forum Ministries (the most blatant case of employer sex discrimination I’ve ever seen). This isn’t to say you won’t see women working there. But if you’re ever at Vision Forum and ask Doug Phillips, “Hey Doug, I thought you said you don’t hire women because it’s wrong for women to work outside the home. Why are all these women working here?” Doug will say, “They’re not here working for Vision Forum. They’re working for their husbands or dads. They’re not under my authority. They’re under they’re husbands or dads authority.” So do the husbands and dads who send their wives and daughters off to Vision Forum get paid anything for the labor of their wives and daughters? No, but it’s all good.

    The same applied to the young lady who worked in Doug Phillips’ home and watched after his children. She didn’t work for Doug and Beall. She worked for her father. This “authority umbrella” provides supernatural protection powers to the young lady who mustn’t work outside the home because women need to be protected by men who will save them from temptation. Working outside the home (or going to college) is dangerous and subjects women to being exploited and preyed upon by lechers and perverts. Women need to be protected by staying at home under the authority umbrella of their fathers. So, you see, the young lady wasn’t really working for Doug but was working for her father and under the protection of her father — in Doug’s home — while her father was, um, somewhere else at his day job. But it’s all good.

    There are also Non-Christian women who work at Vision Forum, but they get paid (Christian women have the “honor” of working at Vision Forum for free, while the non-Christian women get a paycheck). But they don’t get paid by Vision Forum. Not directly anyway because that would be sinful and dirty Doug’s hands. They get paid by the temp agency that charges Vision Forum to have them work there. In this way Doug gets to say he doesn’t hire women.

    Don’t ask me to explain any of this. It’s a Patriarchy thing that only Patriarchy Overlords can comprehend. Patriarchy has many fringe benefits, including it allows Doug to get loads of female labor without having to pay a dime for it, while at the same time being able to brag to your fellow Patriarchs that you only hire men.

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  25. So, I’m not quite sure where the idea came up that DP was a sex offender or that she is a victim of sexual assault. The female involved was engaged in a consensual affair, and she wasn’t underage.

    Anonymous – welcome to the blog. I don’t think anyone doubts your assertion that many people within the FIC revered Phillips. He has been a hero in the Homeschool Movement for years. But he’s also a church leader, a leader within the Homeschool Movement, leader at his ministry and business. Even if you were to tell me she was 25 yrs old when this began, I would still say that she is a victim because of his position of authority within that community. Women do not get to say “no” to men of his position, so it could not have been consensual.

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  26. To Anonymous who commented just now: We realize he is revered. But you should know that a voluntary unpaid worker whose father sent her there is not someone who voluntarily chose to revere, but someone whose father sets her an example in revering, who – in that organization – is TAUGHT to revere her father who sent her there and the leader of the movement. They are not taught to say no to men, only that their fathers will protect them and if they ever feel unsafe, it is their fault for not submitting enough.

    Doug had this long term affair with a physical component with someone who, if she grew up in this movement, never learned that she may and should say no to men under some circumstances.

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  27. To Anonymous, Nov 16, 9:20pm:
    Doug was an abuser because he indulged an affair that was hugely imbalanced in his favor:
    1. He was top dog in a group that methodically demeaned women, cradle to grave.
    2. He behaves as if he actually is superior and always altogether righteous.
    2. He started the affair when the young woman was still a teenager and had just achieved majority (if nowoolovertheeyes is correct).
    3. He is twice the age of the young woman with whom he had the affair.
    4. He was the only one in that relationship who had the experience and understanding to know what makes an intimate adult relationship.

    Doug besmirched innocence and powerlessness for his own pleasure. And yet, unless the young woman leaves the group, she will pay for the rest of her life while Doug will be forgiven soon enough (and already is by such as Doug Wilson, etc).

    Moreover, you are mistaken to believe that “doing service” is different than employment. Any time an adult works for someone, it should be compensated in some way or another. This is basic fairness and I am appalled that any Christian would elide this. Doug misused this woman by having her work in his home for no compensation (except the “privilege” of being around his own amazing self and progeny). This only deepened the outrageous power imbalance already inherent in the affair.

    Yes, she was a victim. That doesn’t mean she didn’t do wrong but it’s ridiculous to equate her sin with the multiple layers of wickedness done her by a supposedly wise and experienced older man. Doug should learn to act like a man, since that’s where he hangs all his worth.

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  28. Romantic relationships between bosses and employees are usually exploitative, and are a frequent topic in all professions:

    For example this physician website warns doctors:
    “Consensual sexual relationships between medical supervisors and trainees are generally considered unethical because of inherent inequalities in the status and power that medical supervisors wield in relation to medical trainees. Whenever a sexual relationship exists between a medical trainee and a supervisor who has professional responsibility for the trainee, the supervisory role must be eliminated if they wish to pursue their relationship.”

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  29. “She didn’t work for Doug and Beall. She worked for her father. This “authority umbrella” provides supernatural protection powers to the young lady who mustn’t work outside the home because women need to be protected by men who will save them from temptation.”

    Guess that umbrella thingy doesn’t always work. Involuntary servitude, de facto slavery actually. Young women taken advantage of by revered men. More bad fruit of patriarchy.

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  30. “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” Patricia Evans pg. 226
    (she is not a Christian but her book applies to all abusive relationships-especially in male dominance)
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Is there such a thing as Spiritual Abuse?

    Yes. Some Power Over people (she defines what this means in her book) disguise themselves as God. In some cases they tell some persons (women) that they must be subject to the will of other persons (men). The evil of this suppression is touted as “God’s will”. This is an example of taking the name of God in vain. Sometimes a whole community may be indoctrinated this way, both women and men.

    Sometimes a woman who is thus indoctrinated will come to believe that God’s will is her husband’s will or some other man’s will. This very same woman, who would not presume to tell a man he must follow her directions, may not question the fact that someone has told her how to live her life.

    When women who, taught to accept this oppression, awaken to the reality of her own spirituality and even discover the history of women’s spirituality, they say they feel freed and at the same time deeply betrayed.

    There is something evil in using the idea of “God”, which to many people means “Love”, to teach oppression. This is undermining to all people everywhere.

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  31. In case it might be helpful to somebody who is reading here, it is not too difficult to demonstrate that Jesus specifically prohibited patriarchy. He told us not to call anybody rabbi, instructor or father. Mt. 23:8-10. While it is apparent from other Scripture that there will be those who teach, and even those who serve as spiritual fathers, it is clear from the following verse 12 that Jesus is telling us that no man is to be recognized as holding an elevated, authoritative position with the title of rabbi, teacher or father.

    The word translated “father” in these verses is from the Greek word pater (πατήρ), which is the root from which we get the English word “patriarch” as well as “father.” Given the point Jesus is obviously making, I contend that the better translation of verse 9 would be “And call no man your patriarch on earth, for you have one patriarch, who is in heaven.

    If any man should attempt to impose patriarchal control on a daughter of God by accusing her of rebellion against God, she can simply say, “No, I must follow Jesus who taught us to call no man on earth pater, meaning father or patriarch.”

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  32. The current age of the woman involved is irrelevant , her age at the time of the first physical contact and the exact nature of the ” physical component” is what law enforcment will review. Supporters of Mr. Phillips are coming out of the woodwork to run interference on this while he still hasn’t really admitted to exactly what he did.

    Frankly I believe the posters that have clearly stated she wasn’t an adult when the relationship started because that makes sense. If she was an adult when this started the Vision forum defenders would have her name posted all over the world as the evil woman that caused the down fall of this great beacon of light. She would be the clever, scheming home wrecker that has seduced this Godly man through no fault of his own with the sole exception of his great manliness and a shot of old spice. She would be the confused woman that coveted someone else’s hunk of a man.

    Their church would be all over her with church discipline and publicly release charging documents identifying her. They instead have issued statements that didn’t even accuse her of sin and hidden her from the world. All one has to do is look at how they handled the Epstein family in a matter of past sin that they admitted was over 20 years old. They excommunicated the whole family. Little Miss Muffet over at Ladies Against Feminism wasn’t posting about how we must forgive the person that has sinned( as she is in the case of the Doug) but rather waging a online war seeking to destroy a family. Her husband and assorted boobs were throwing up all sorts of websites with this family as a target, alleging links to racial extremists and even targeting their children. The daughter of this family was abandoned by her friends and even uninvited from her best friend’s wedding on the orders of Doug Phillips. That alone put Doug Phillips into the category of cult leader in my book.

    You can only be so disgustingly corrupt, vicious and mean spirited for so long before God’s judgment and exposure comes down on you like a ton of dinosaur bones. Allosaurus bones to be precise.

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  33. Pingback: People Affected by Doug Phillips’s Ministry: What Now? | Spiritual Sounding Board

  34. What about Kirk Camerons 2013 marriage tours called “Love Worth Fighting for” and his movie “Unstoppable” that he has done with Liberty University?
    Patriarchal?
    (And there’s a whole bunch of marketed stuff from the movie to buy on his website)

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  35. JA-Yes I remember that movie.
    You have opened my eyes to yet another issue in the church that I had not thought much about.
    I did always believe that if the husband was the spiritual head of the home, we would be blessed and covered. Although Calvary Chapel aimed to make the Pastor the head of the home, since they did not encourage men to spend time in study and prayer with their family, as I see this movement has (Patriarchal). They wanted you to go to church, and idolize the Pastor-which took much power away from the dads IMO.

    But the head of the home under Christ looks more like “blessed are the meek” type than what I am reading here.

    Someone at one of my CC’s gave me a Debbie Pearl book that she said she bought in bulk to give out. “Helpmeet” was in the title. I was impressed by the book, and knew there were parts to my personality that I needed to change (much like she admitted), so bought a Pearl “package” of books, CD’s DVD’s. Their lives seemed so much different than mine, that I couldn’t receive much though he did have a good DVD for husbands-he wanted the wives to give to them. On it I remember there was some questionable stuff.

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  36. Mod note: I just removed a couple of comments that were distracting and not constructive to this important discussion. While normally I might let these slide, there was concern expressed to me, so I’m making a judgment call and removing them.

    This is a very serious topic and I don’t want anyone to think that we are making light of the situation. Thanks!

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  37. Hannah@November 17, 2013 @ 9:42 AM
    Did I understand correctly that you have been reading the Pearls’ books? Please know that they are as spiritually abusive as anything discussed here. And their How to Train a child book is horrendous. They advocate using a plumbing line to hit an infant – ask about their “blanket training.” It’s horrible. So many who came out of those homes have left their parents or been rejected by their parents for speaking out against the training. Adopted children in at least 2 homes where the families lived by the Pearls’ methods have died.This blog has a series where she reviews the books: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/

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  38. As soon as I read Anonymous@November 16, 2013 @ 9:20 PM said, I knew I would have to chime in. Cannot let misinformation regarding clergy sexual abuse go unaddressed. Only it appears Julie Anne, that you have some of the most informed readers out there concerning clergy sexual abuse and power dynamics. I’m impressed. No need for my input!

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  39. This whole cult affects multi-generations. I am the mother of 6 adult children and 18 grandchildren. One of our daughters and her husband have bought into ATI and Doug Phillips. 12 years ago they moved to a rural area had 8 kids. We rarely see them and they NEVER come visit us. Even though they are in poor health, they homeschool all the kids. The 21 year old still calls them Mommy and Daddy They feel our youngest daughter set a bad example for our then 2 year old granddaughter by playing a Christian radio station.

    Phillips 100 percent. They have 8 kids Phillips

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  40. Welcome, Jackie C,

    You’re darn right I have some very informed readers. But sadly, for a lot of them/us, it came at a price.

    So glad you stopped by and thanks for the nice compliment. 🙂

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  41. Anyway, our middle daughter and husband have distanced themselves from the family. My husband and I have been Christians for over 40 years. Of our other 5 children 3 serve the Lord. Two do not. It is easier dealing with the 2 agnostics than it is with this totally over the top legalism , homeschooling, submissive, modesty uniform, etc., etc. I am heartbroken that my grandchildren have no options, little education and feel called to continue this lifestyle.

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  42. Hi Leslie: Welcome to the blog. Oh boy, your story is so sad and it makes complete sense why it would be easier to deal with the 2 agnostics than the legalism. Ugh – I wish there was something that I could say that would make it better. 😦 I”m so sorry.

    Have they been following the Phillips story? I hope that through the story that people will see the many comments from people who have been hurt by this Patriarchy.

    Keep loving on them. One of the most persuasive things for me when I was stuck in the cult was seeing Christ’s love through my friends from my former church. They continually showed love and grace. It was contagious. I wanted that again.

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  43. Jackie C

    Thanks for your concern.
    That was about 8 years ago!
    And I did realize there were problems when I went beyond Debbie Pearls “Helpmeet” book.

    When I found out about the Pearls spanking issues, I e-mailed the mom who gave me that book, informed her about it, and never heard back from her. At that point I threw out most of what I had of the Pearls “products”. I think I saw the Song of Solomon book in my closet somewhere recently. Never read that one!

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  44. I sense a big part of this is that some people desperately seek belonging: identity, meaning, purpose and connection. For them, only a very structured community with unusually strong beliefs will suffice. But the nature of Christianity is that we must come to God and be made whole. Only then can we come alongside others in recognition of our common calling. I define a cult as the opposite of this. Cults happen when dysfunctional people yield themselves to other dysfunctional people thereby perpetuating dysfunction.

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  45. @nowoolovertheeyes: Please clarify another point: My understanding is that the young lady, as well as some of her family members, traveled with Doug and his family on numerous out of state and overseas Vision Forum trips. The young lady watched after Doug’s children on these trips and was financially compensated for those trips. Her travel expenses were covered as well. Do you know if Doug paid for those travel expenses out of his pocket, or were her and her family members’ travel expenses paid for by Vision Forum Ministries and/or Vision Forum Inc.?

    @TW ESTON: Actually I know the answers to these questions but if I answer any of these in detail (or even with very little detail), it will give away the identity of this young woman. While I feel, she was old enough to make her own decisions and was at fault in this affair as well, I fear the backlash towards her at the hands of the Doug followers and will decide to protect her name at this time. She has suffered enough.

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  46. @nowoolovertheeyes are you clearly saying this was not an abusive situation that is was a consensual relationship. If so I wish you would make that clear on this blog as it has been discussed at length and many have accused Doug of sexual abuse with zero evidence to back it up. You say this woman was at fault(we all know who you are referring to). Don’t you think she also owes an apology to the public as she appeared in many videos and product of Vision Forum over the last 10 years promoting her way of life. She was one of the familiar faces of Vision Forum. A lot of young women looked up to her and viewed her as a role model all the while she also was living a lie. Her betrayal is also great.

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  47. it’s up to her if she wants to apologize and she might in due time. I am not saying if this was consensual or abusive……I just know that she was 18 when it started & was an adult. She is now 30. I will try to minimally quote Jeff Pollard from his recent sermon “she deserves to have her story told”. I agree. I can tell you that those that say that the affair happened when she was a minor, is not true. That’s what I was trying to clear up.

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  48. @nowoolovermyeyes thank you for clearing that up about weather she was a minor when it started. I haven’t had a chance to listen to Jeff’s sermon yet. I hope also she tells her story someday as I think she could help a great many young women. Can you clarify for me your comment about it starting when she was 18 and ending at 30. Are you saying this went on for 12 years? And are you willing to comment on weather or not Doug was forced to confess? I think it would tell the rest of us how honest Doug’s resignation letter was. Thank you!

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  49. Are you saying this went on for 12 years? yes I am

    And are you willing to comment on weather or not Doug was forced to confess? Yes he was forced to step down as elder in Feb and then forced to resign in Oct.

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  50. @ nowoolovertheeyes thank you for clearing these things up. I have just one more question. If Doug was forced to resign in Feb. from the church does that mean that people kept this a secret from public from Feb.-Oct. while Doug continued to speak at conferences and do his VFM trips? Voddie Baucham said Doug resigned in Feb. but he didnt know why.

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  51. @Sarah
    @nowoolovermyeyes
    I realize others have said it here before, as have I, but it sounds like you don’t understand the issue. Even an adult can be sexually abused. When one person has theispower in the relationship, there is a responsibility to respect that power. A therapist cannot have a personal relationship with a client. The client trusts the therapist, looks ups to that person, believes the therapist knows what is best. Even if you don’t believe in therapy, you can probably understand why there are rules and laws protecting clients in that relationship. It is the same with a minister. A person in that church attributes a lot of power and wisdom to the minister. They can easily be led. It’s called clergy sexual abuse. If Doug Phillips was in any way her minister, if she was part of Vision Forum, which you imply she was (I have no clue but you two seem to), then he was her minister and it was clergy sexual abuse.

    Saying it wasn’t abuse doesn’t make it not abuse, as much as you might wish it so. It doesn’t work that way. Clergy sexual abuse has been commonly defined by a number of denominations, and it is unethical. If she had been 50 and he was her minister, it would still be clergy sexual abuse. Placing equal blame on the woman and expecting her to make an apology only makes it look like you’re sticking your head in the sand.

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  52. @Jackie: clearly I know what’s going on & more details but can’t say but clearly you don’t know me. Yes, I know what sexual abuse is. I have seen it myself.

    If Doug was forced to resign in Feb. from the church does that mean that people kept this a secret from public from Feb.-Oct. while Doug continued to speak at conferences and do his VFM trips? That is correct

    Voddie Baucham said Doug resigned in Feb. but he didnt know why. Actually Voddie was told that he was stepping down to “spend more time with his family”. If you know Doug like we do, or he does, the only way Doug is going to step down is if he’s forced to and that’s what happened here.

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  53. @nowoolovertheeyes, I am appalled at the people who kept this a secret for so many months. These people should also be removed from any positions of leadership and face church discipline!

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  54. @Jackie I am well aware what sexual abuse is as I was abused for most of my childhood. I well understand that Doug abused his power and position. He behaviour is appalling. That being said at any point over 12 years this lady could have put the breaks on everything as with any abuse situation. Especially when you take into consideration that she is 30 now. My heart breaks for this woman, however she is still accountable for her role in all this. We won’t really know the truth of what went until we hear her story. Until then I am unwilling to accuse Doug of abusing her. Doug is a handsome, charismatic man it is not that hard to believe that she may have fallen for him.

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  55. Sarah said:

    That being said at any point over 12 years this lady could have put the breaks on everything as with any abuse situation.

    and

    My heart breaks for this woman, however she is still accountable for her role in all this.

    I 100% disagree with you, Sarah. If you had an understanding of cults and thought reform, you would not say the things you do about this young lady.

    I’m going to put my moderator hat on now. Please, do not post any more comments about this young woman being responsible for the affair. The blame should lie solely with Phillips who was in a position of authority over her and used that position inappropriately.

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  56. @Julie Anne. You are correct I have no experience with a cult. I respectfully disagree with you in this instance until I hear otherwise from the lady herself 🙂 thank you for all you are doing and thank you for dialoging with me 🙂

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  57. As I said – – read about cults and then come tell me she’s not a victim. Wait – – I take that back – – you can’t do that anymore here 🙂 She’s a victim. She’s 100% victim.

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  58. I can assure you this has been known by some of the board members of VFM for several months, and it is only since the closing of VFM (Nov 1 or 2?) that they stopped receiving donations. At the rate of giving from the previously reported years this would add up to a nice bit of change. No wonder they kept quiet,

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  59. “If Doug was forced to resign in Feb. from the church does that mean that people kept this a secret from public from Feb.-Oct. while Doug continued to speak at conferences and do his VFM trips? That is correct”

    Well maybe they thought they could keep this all under wraps and still continue profiting (and propheting) from Doug Phillips as long as nobody found out.

    So someone found out or the victim said she’s going public. SOMETHING happened for them to make the public announcement about it – that they had no intention of EVER making, despite knowing about it from at least February.

    Visiongate.

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  60. @CA You say several of the board members of VFM knew of the scandal for months. What proof do you have of this. I actually find that hard to believe as the board of VFM consisted of 3 families. One of them being Doug Phillips family. I can’t imagine Scott Brown risking his reputation and ministry to cover up Doug’s adultery!

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  61. Sarah, my understanding of this leaves me with great confidence that this was being dealt with for several months prior to the resignation. But I will admit it is second hand information. My main concern is what is the VFM board going to do with the donations sent to them during the time they knew. Integrity would suggest that donations would be returned.

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  62. @nowoolovertheeyes, I am appalled at the people who kept this a secret for so many months. These people should also be removed from any positions of leadership and face church discipline! Well since Doug was the ONLY elder that was head of BCA and the only one in charge, it’s hard to do that sigh. He had one other elder, but Doug was held accountable to NO ONE for the most part. I am curious as to what happened to force him down………

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  63. @nowoolovermyeyes, You answered my reply to you with “clearly I know what’s going on & more details but can’t say but clearly you don’t know me. Yes, I know what sexual abuse is. I have seen it myself.”

    You called this clergy sexual abuse an affair at least twice at Nov 25 8:38 pm and Nov 26 12:18pm. You admit she was part of the ministry. You clearly didn’t get what I was saying. It’s not an affair – which is a relationship of persons with equal power – it was clergy sexual abuse. You seem to be implying that sexual abuse has to look like violent rape or abuse of a child. There are many sides to sexual abuse so quit calling it an affair.

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  64. Sarah said: “@ nowoolovertheeyes thank you for clearing these things up.”

    Someone comes in here without giving a name or identifying details, he asserts he knows what is going on, and you believe him rather than those who do give their names and are willing to say less positive things, despite knowing they can be sued for libel if it is false?

    Do you believe him because this is what you want to believe?

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  65. @Rhetha what exactly are you referring to that nowoolovertheeyes said differently then anyone else? She/he said it had in been 12 years which someone else on this blog also confirmed today. I already knew about the announcement in Feb. as Voddie had it on his Facebook page so it made sense that everyone was told he was resigning to spend time with his family. Obviously there was a cover up by some. It doesn’t take a genius to know who the woman in question is. Most people figured it out on there own in the moments following Doug’s announcement. I don’t know who nowoolovertheeyes is but he/she has been very consistent on this blog since he/she started posting. Again not really sure what you are referring to.

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  66. Jackie C
    NOVEMBER 26, 2013 @ 7:21 PM
    @nowoolovermyeyes, You answered my reply to you with “clearly I know what’s going on & more details but can’t say but clearly you don’t know me. Yes, I know what sexual abuse is. I have seen it myself.”

    You called this clergy sexual abuse an affair at least twice at Nov 25 8:38 pm and Nov 26 12:18pm. You admit she was part of the ministry. You clearly didn’t get what I was saying. It’s not an affair – which is a relationship of persons with equal power – it was clergy sexual abuse. You seem to be implying that sexual abuse has to look like violent rape or abuse of a child. There are many sides to sexual abuse so quit calling it an affair. Unless you know all of the facts/details, I would like to suggest that we all stop using these labels and jumping to conclusions. I know things but need more info to say for sure.

    @Rhetha: I will not reveal my name, my sources or how I am connected. Maybe one day I will but not now. I only put stuff out there that has been confirmed and corroborated. There’s much MUCH more, but until it’s public knowledge, my lips are sealed. But just know over the next few weeks/days, things will be happening….and they will be happening fast!

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  67. @nowoooovermyeyes
    I question your motives with your unsound logic. You admitted she was a woman in his ministry (so did a lot of others). Doug Phillips admitted it was a physical relationship. What more do you think is required to make it clergy sexual abuse?

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  68. @Sarah: I’m referring to your: “@nowoolovermyeyes thank you for clearing that up about weather she was a minor when it started.” Some on this blog claim she was a minor.

    @nowool: I did not ask for your name. I asked Sarah why she believes you and not others, on things like whether she was a minor.

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  69. @Retha actually several people have claimed they know for a fact she wasn’t a minor on this blog and over at Jens Gems. I have consistently seen that she was 18 and is now 30. So until I hear differently from the woman herself(and I realize it is entirely possible she was younger and is being pressured to keep that concealed) I am going to go with the fact that she wasn’t a minor.

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  70. I think we need to concentrate on publicizing these things. We need to educate people about the problems. We also need to educate people in the Bible. The reason people fall for these weird ideas is because they don’t know Scripture. They’re taken in by cultural ideas or someone else’s thoughts. And then we have to recognize that many of these people are attracted to odd movements for psychological reasons. Their mindset may be black-and-white or they may have issues of codependency. Something’s going on there. So these are just a few things to think about.

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  71. ” I will not reveal my name, my sources or how I am connected. Maybe one day I will but not now. I only put stuff out there that has been confirmed and corroborated. There’s much MUCH more, but until it’s public knowledge, my lips are sealed. But just know over the next few weeks/days, things will be happening….and they will be happening fast!”

    I suspect he may have been telling the young lady that he would leave his wife for her but just “needed time” to work things out OR that he was planning to introduce polygyny into Christian Patriarchy and take her as his second wife.

    Pure speculation of course.

    I also suspect his wife might divorce him.

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  72. Ri Ri: I’m trying to put together a post compiling all of the recent developments I have found on the Phillips situation.

    I don’t think Beall will divorce Doug. I haven’t read specifically that Phillips has the permanence view of marriage, but this “practice” is commonplace among like-minded men (Voddie Baucham for one). In this environment, if there is an affair by the husband, the blame shifts to the wife: she let herself get out of shape, didn’t take care of herself, didn’t give enough sex to her husband, etc.

    It would be very difficult for Beall to go against this many years of the legalism she has been exposed to.

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  73. “In this environment, if there is an affair by the husband, the blame shifts to the wife: she let herself get out of shape, didn’t take care of herself, didn’t give enough sex to her husband, etc. ”

    And if the wife has an affair? Is it her hubby’s fault for going bald, growing a beer and pizza belly and not providing her with orgasms?

    Mod note: slightly modified comment.

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  74. “It would be very difficult for Beall to go against this many years of the legalism she has been exposed to.”

    Right but the Old Testament allowed for divorce and the New Testament allows for divorce in cases of adultery. So Beall would be completely “legal” in divorcing him.

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  75. People please know you have to have more than gossip and word of mouth for the FBI to listen and move on this. There must be proof, facts files whatever. They will not do anything on word of mouth rumors etc. They cannot waste their time. So if anyone has proof of underage sexual contact please get it into their hands. Same things with financial issues of possible fraud. They need some hard facts, proof. I will pray he is brought to the justice court of law if he has abused this woman when she was a child. This is my greatest concern! .Pray that if this is the case the woman will “do the hard thing” and come forward to the authorities to protect other children. If he did it once he most certainly can do it again .

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  76. Also on a side note I wish us christians will completely STOP using the word AFFAIR! If you or a loved one have ever been affected by this life altering sin you would never refer to it as such. The bible calls it, ADULTERY! Not some whimsical romanitc sounding fluff. Please call it adultery, not the worldly soft word affair. ( some are saying it is sexual abuse and it may be that as well, I just see a lot of affair references and wanted to add my 2 cents worth!)

    Like

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