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Articles continue to be written about fallen pastor and Christian ministry leader and pastor, Doug Phillips, who resigned from the non-profit arm of Vision Forum Ministries and from his public speaking engagements. But what is next? What does repentance and restoration look like? Can or should he assume his former positions again?
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While many are commenting on how beautiful and appropriate Doug Phillips’ public statement was, others are saying, “wait, not so fast.” I’d like to explore some thoughts by others on repentance and restoration.
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Repentance, Restoration of a Fallen Leader and Pastor
Over at Pastor Doug Wilson’s blog post, I saw this excellent comment:
1689er
In truth, we don’t know that he has repented. Repentance in such cases takes time to discern as it must be proved (2 Corinthians 7:9-11). It is going to be harder to discern if he was caught in this affair versus coming forward and confessing of his own volition as the later case demonstrates repentance in a more immediate sense. If he was caught, it’s going to take some time to see if his confession is complete and that he isn’t doing damage control (which isn’t repentance). Hopefully his church will censure him for an appropriate period so that these matters can be reasonably discerned. In a similar vein, I must confess I find his resignation vague as to the nature of the relationship. “While we did not “know” each other in a Biblical sense, it was nevertheless inappropriately romantic and affectionate.” This seems to imply that the relationship was not physical but merely emotional. That’s how many people are taking it. However, upon closer inspection, he is not saying it was merely emotional. What he is saying is that intercourse was not involved but he leaves the door wide open for the potential discovery over other indiscretions. Should it be discovered that he was physically intimate in other ways, he can claim that he never denied it. My concern is that equivocal language is more indicative of damage control than it is of repentance. If there were a physical aspect to this relationship, I think it would have been better to simply call it an affair and leave it at that. Regardless, it is the duty of his elders and church to oversee this matter. We need to remember them in our prayers, that God grant them wisdom.
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Commenter 1689er is saying what I and many others have been saying – it’s too early to see repentance. He also rightly suggested that we have no way of knowing if Phillips voluntarily issued the statement or was told to do so. That is important.
Some may think this is not our business. I disagree. It is our business. This man has been in a public position of leadership affecting scores of Christian families and their lives. Many have shaped their lives around this man’s teachings. I dare say that many families have heeded the words of this man more than the words of their very own pastor. You better believe his words and life are going to be put under a microscope.
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Dr. Douglas Weiss, has written an article entitled, Restoring the Fallen. Dr. Douglas Weiss Ph.D., is the executive director of Heart to Heart Counseling Center in Colorado Springs, Colorado. He has been counseling pastors with infidelity, pornography, and other sexual sins for over 20 years. Weiss listed key patterns he saw for people who were able to be successfully restored. Here is a brief summary of the list.
Key patterns to look for in successfully restored leaders:
- this person voluntarily discloses the sin to his spouse an/or spiritual authority. This action is prompted by a desire for restoration and healing.
- he has a humble heart, truly remorseful, and broken by his sinful actions
- he is ready to accept 100% responsibility for his sin, not blaming anyone else for his sin
- he is willing to take direction and guidance from others and fully submits to those people placed over him
- he readily embraces accountability
- he voluntarily makes efforts to work on the restoration of his marriage
- he voluntarily seeks out professional counselors who can help discover why he did what he did
- he submits to regular polygraph tests (this helps in building trust for the spouse and others).
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Also on the topic of forgiveness and restoration is a recent article by Heather Doney, “We All Sin:” A 15 Step Path To Forgiveness for Doug Phillips. This article is a pertinent read because she identifies specific patterns often found within this “movement” and offers her predictions based on her familiarity of how this movement typically responds.
I was very intrigued by the comment my friend Brad Sargent left at Doney’s blog:
brad/futuristguy says:
Heather, thank you for posting this. I’ve been doing research on systems of spiritual abuse for over five years. I believe you’ve provided one of the best pieces of analysis I’ve read about a particular christianized authoritarian system. You’ve succinctly addressed the core theological, cultural, and personal dynamics involved here in a way that shows a depth of reflection, discernment, and compassion. As a survivor of spiritual abuse myself, I see these all as indicators that significant healing is happening for you, and I trust that will continue for you and thereby encourage the journeys to health of those you relate with.
I suspect your conclusion about Doug Phillips’ probable restoration to public ministry is correct, barring some revelations that make sidelining him long term absolutely unavoidable. This rush to restoration without rehabilitation seems to have become a hallmark of those held enthralled by their charismatic leader. Those so entrapped fail to see that, as you pointed out, the greater problem is Mr. Phillips’ entire paradigm and systems of control with their pervasive evil … not merely his personal sins and moral failures with their supposedly limited impact.
For those who insist on his restoration to ministry, I have my own opinion about an appropriate period of rehabilitation: I believe Mr. Phillips needs to spend seven years away from public speaking, leading, or ministry of any kind for every one year he was engaged in the self-proclaimed “lengthy, inappropriate relationship with a woman.” [And, since it appears that his business is viewed as resourcing ministry, he should step down from that as well.]
According to this formula, restitutionary repentance may indeed take the remainder of his lifetime. However, if there is true change of heart, mind, and behaviors, then that shouldn’t seem an undue hardship or inappropriate. In fact, that lengthy, appropriate time of reflection will hopefully give Mr. Phillips the substantial opportunity needed to consider the widespread and destructive impact of his paradigm, his theology, and his personal activities.
Actually Phillips’ own words on repentance are pretty compelling and could very well line up with some of Brad’s thoughts.
Here’s one additional comment/dialogue I found on Voddie Baucham’s Facebook page. I was especially interested to read his perspective because he is a friend of Doug Phillips.
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Nevertheless, it is important to remember that failure is not final in the Christian life. Forgiveness is available. And even if one finds himself disqualified in the short run, there is always the possibility of future service in a legitimate capacity after proper restoration. As you said, “forgiveness is one thing, trust to lead again is another.” But praise God, they are both possible!
Here are some of the questions mulling around in my head:
- Do you think Phillips can ever be restored to ministry?
- Can Phillips return to ministry because of the fact that he didn’t “Biblically know” the woman?
- Where does God’s grace fit in this aside from forgiveness?
- Are we cruel and heartless to not want him to go back into ministry?
- Is this really not our business?
- Have you ever seen anyone fall from ministry and have a glorious restoration and healing and assume old ministry positions? What was that like?
- Is it cold-hearted to keep someone out of ministry altogether after this kind of sin?
- Can you give Biblical examples of a fallen leader and end results?
Related articles
- Doug Phillips resigns, but it’s probably not his fault (biblicalsex.wordpress.com)
- How Doug Phillips Wreaked Havoc on My Family (homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com)
- Are the women to blame for Doug Phillips’ resignation from Vision Forum Ministries? (http://awomansfreedominchrist.com)
- Doug Phillips: The Big Scandal You Didn’t Hear About and Why It Matters, Julie Ingersoll, Huffington Post Religion
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Special thanks to crecmemes for permission to use image.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I love Baucham’s statement that these things are quite rare. He is flat out lying about this. I subscribe to the Freedom From Religion Foundation newsletter. EVERY MONTH in the white collar crime section of the newsletter there are dozens and dozens of names of pastors, priests, church leaders, etc who have been charged/arrested/convicted of felony crimes, many of them sex crimes. Add to this the clergy and church leaders, like Phillips, who did not do anything criminal but resign due an inappropriate sexual relationship or are caught in an establishment they should not be at, the number of offenders is quite large.
According to the Bureau of Labor statistics, there are 44,000 clergy in the US. Studies suggest an adultery rate of 10-20% , depending on the study. This means 4,400-8,800 clergy have committed consensual adultery. Add to this those who commit acts that are criminal…..it is clear that Baucham is not telling the truth. We know clergy cheat, have affairs, and lie pretty much at the same level as non-clergy. They may be men of God but they are not morally or ethically special in any way. They can, and do, behave in ways that contradict what they preach from the pulpit on Sunday.
I could spend hours sharing stories about the peccadillos of preachers. Not evil men but human men. I have no problem understanding Phillip’s affair. It happens. But, when you spend your life saying you are on a higher moral plane than the rest of us unwashed, uncircumcised Philistines, I hope you will forgive us when we ridicule your “fall” and call you a hypocrite.
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Julie Anne observes, “I dare say that many families have heeded the words of this man more than the words of their very own pastor.”
I dare say that many families have heeded the words of this man more than the words of Jesus. Then again, I dare say say that in the American institutional church paradigm, most heed the words of their so called pastors more than the words of Jesus.
Once a man has allowed himself to become such an object of idolatrous devotion, he will tend to be particularly susceptible to marital infidelity. The marital infidelity is not so much the thing that must be repented (though it must be) as it is the sign of a profound rebellion against God — a rebellion consisting of having allowed oneself to receive adoration that belongs only to Jesus.
Whether or not a man has fallen into marital infidelity, if he has allowed himself to become an object of adoration, repentance ceases to be real the instant he re-assumes a place of public prominence. In my opinion, with or without full repentance from his self-confessed marital infidelity, Phillips may never again undertake public ministry. As I see it, his ministry was his sin, it was and is the place of his rebellion against God.
But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12, ESV)
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I did a bit more research on the number of clergy. This site http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html says there are 600,000 clergy in the US and Canada. This includes churches, hospitals, denominational offices, retirees,etc. I suspect the huge difference between the BLS stat and this one has to do with tax filing status. Using the larger number makes things worse. This mean 60-120,000 clergy have committed consensual adultery. (I am assuming, of course, that clergy are no more or less moral than the rest of us)
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JA- what do you think of Kirk Cameron’s Tweet for 11/4 where he says that wives determine the happiness in the home? he gives a link to an article in which the author which supports equal submission, but he seems to suggest otherwise making it the wife’s responsibility. I actually like him a lot but wonder if I may be misinterpreting him. Wonder what your readers think.
I would paste but it doesn’t seem to work for me here!
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Bruce, the figures only count what is reported in some fashion. They do not include all the molestations, etc that are swept under the rug and hidden.
Hannah, They lay heavy burdens on women. Is that supposed to mean Be-all was not making Doug happy enough (8 kids later) so he went somewhere else for love and affection because he deserves it and could not get it from her? Or perhaps he was just bored? What does it matter if it was all Be-all’s fault?
Do people not see the Islamic overtones in this thinking? The woman is to blame for the mans behavior or even his mood. This is nothing but enabling abuse and bad behavior. This also keeps men in a 13 year old boy emotional state of self centeredness.
And Doug was making bank off his brand of biblical manhood. You will see lots of circling the wagons with excuses and rebukes of “glee” or “gossiping” because many of them have made bank off Jesus and within that movement. Kirk Cameron, Doug Wilson and Stacy McDonald are no exception
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KC “Home Happiness Depends on the Wife”
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Hannah, I found it. (BTW, whenever I post tweets in the comments, they are live links. So, if you click on the date, it will give you the tweet and responses.)
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Lydia- If you look at his link to the article..more info.
Sometimes I wonder with all the tweeting, if this is a way to cause a stir and gain publicity. I hate to think that though and give him the benefit of the doubt. He spoke at my church about 10 yrs ago, and though the message was scripted which happens giving the same message over and over, and I sensed his acting abilities, after the invitation, when hundreds walked forward, he was actually crying. That was moving for me
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Thanks JA.
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Hannah, I hate to be a pessimist, but I have to tell you that the first thought that came to my mind after thinking “that’s sweet,” was: “well, he is an actor.” Is that bad of me?
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Is Kirk in that movement?
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Well, I guess we can never know what is in a man’s heart, can we?
Man looks at the outside appearance- God looks at the heart….
It did seem genuine. I felt he was moved by how many received his message. Mind you, it was a Calvary Chapel so perhaps more moving than the Pastors sermons 😉
I have the VHS, want me to send it to you 😉 !
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Ok, here’s a quote from Cameron’s article:
“Very largely does the wife hold in her hands, as a sacred trust — the happiness and the highest good of the hearts that nestle in the home. The best husband — the truest, the noblest, the gentlest, the richest-hearted — cannot make his home happy, if his wife is not, in every reasonable sense, a helpmate to him.
Read more at http://kirkcameron.com/2013/11/home-happiness-depends-wife/#u5dLT5y2oAPWJcFK.99”
And if you go to that article, he links to this article http://gracegems.org/Miller/Home.htm written in 1894. Ok, now my curiosity is up. I have to go digging.
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Which movement, Hannah? If you mean Homeschool Movement, yes, he has been drinking the KoolAid.
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Thank you, Bruce Gerencser. Voddie’s statement made me throw up in my mouth a little, but his evasiveness usually has that effect on me. I’m glad you had the information to counter it.
So, Kirk Cameron has truly drunk the Kool-aid? I feel sorry for his wife.
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Sorry to get you going so early!!
I’m on the east coast, it’s 8:41 here, but 5:30 by you!
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Well, it’s not your fault, Hannah. Ugh – – my body for some reason wants to stay on the old time zone. What is wrong with me?
It looks like the news of Phillips has hit his hometown area in San Antonio: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Christian-home-school-leader-admits-extramarital-4961327.php
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Bruce, interestingly, I was just looking at stats for pastors put out by the Barna Research Group yesterday and featured on Focus on the Family site. They were pretty old stats, but pastors really are no better morally than us “common folk.”
Amos???? where are you? LOL Amos always seems to provide some good numbers, too.
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I read KC’s article a few times.
Do women work outside the home in the “Homeschool Movement”?
Is that discouraged?
Just wondering if today in the typical 2 income home where at times the wife is a professional and works longer hours than the husband, should she be required to fulfill all the “home duties” (which KC doesn’t really list) on her own?
Do men in the Homeschool movement clean the house, do the laundry etc?
I think he could have included in the article that to have a “Happy wife, Happy Life”, the man must love his wife as Christ loved the church. Just my .02.
Of course, my experience is not in the Homeschool movement!
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Julie Anne, the question you pose, “Can or should he assume his former positions again?” has me thinking. Also, the assertion by Phillips that he “did not know this woman in the Biblical sense”. hmmmmm. .. . can it be that he knew this woman in other positions than the Missionary? If so, his statement makes perfect (Biblical) sense! . . chortle. .
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About 15-16 years ago, my pastor admitted to an ongoing affair with a very young woman who was not his wife (he eventually confessed to fathering a child with the young woman as well). The board of deacons asked him to immediately step down from his job as pastor, surrender his license and spend the rest of his life trying to make restoration to both his family and the woman he had wronged. He was told that his life and actions would bear the fruit of repentance, not his words. This church was by no means perfect but I have to think that maybe they were on the right track with how they handled the pastor.
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carmen: STOP! I might wake up the kids. I’m chortling too loudly.
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Mandy – I can respect deacons like that. Do you know what happened to the former pastor? Was he able to do as was recommended?
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After about a year his wife asked him for a divorce and eventually remarried. The former pastor moved in with his mother and became a truck driver. As far as I am aware, the church supports the young woman and her child financially when child support payments don’t arrive. I don’t know if the former pastor ever repented but he was given every opportunity to do so.
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Wow, the church helps her out, even though she was remarried?
Moved in with mom and is a truck driver. Ouch. That’s got to be humbling to move back home. And the truck driver part – – -that’s a difficult job with so many temptations at truck stop and the many hours of being alone.
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Speaking of Chortling, I just came a across a web page where the people at Vision Form are accusing their fellow fundamentalists at SharperIron of gossiping, reviling, motive judging and personal attacks. SharperIron’s transgression? Being critical of Vision Forum. So, what is the rule when fundamentalists criticize their even more fundamentalist brethren? Thou shalt remain silent! What is the on-the-ground reality? Criticism is met with condemnation! Condemnation for gossiping, reviling, motive judging and personal attacks.
Chortle, chortle.
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“So, what is the rule when fundamentalists criticize their even more fundamentalist brethren?”
The rule is: it’s open season, unless the “gossip” is about you or your movement. 🙂
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I don’t know about Philips, but yes genuine repentance and restoration is possible, though costly. Part of the very real problem with that is the democratic entrepreneurial nature of American Christianity in general. Anybody can hang out a shingle, call themselves a pastor, and get themselves a following. So even if a church or ministry means to get the restoration and repentance thing right, what is to stop someone from basically saying, “You know I think I’ve done enough ‘repenting'”, hanging out his shingle and starting up again under a new ministry away from the people who were trying to hold him accountable? I’m not saying that excuses any church or organisation from making the effort; just trying to describe how easy it is for people to avoid it.
The Catholic church was rocked by child sex abuse scandals but at least there is something the church could actually do about them — even if they did it late and inadequately. You can’t easily hang out a shingle as a Catholic priest and start up your own parish, so if you screw up and they kick you out you’re pretty much done unless you’re willing to leave the Catholic church altogether. Among Protestants — who can do that? Heck, even if you aren’t a leader if you get mad, you pack up and leave and start your own thing. I suspect that is one of the reason a lot of churches / ministries fail (and yes it is a failure and a sinful one at that) to do more to actually enforce real ‘discipline’ on leaders.
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Let’s take a look at what “expert “DrWeiss of Heart to Heart Counseling says:
■this person voluntarily discloses the sin to his spouse an/or spiritual authority. This action is prompted by a desire for restoration and healing.
■he has a humble heart, truly remorseful, and broken by his sinful actions
■he is ready to accept 100% responsibility for his sin, not blaming anyone else for his sin
■he is willing to take direction and guidance from others and fully submits to those people placed over him
■he readily embraces accountability
■he voluntarily makes efforts to work on the restoration of his marriage
■he voluntarily seeks out professional counselors who can help discover why he did what he did
■he submits to regular polygraph tests (this helps in building trust for the spouse and others).
Boy, these guys have a good thing going. These “philosopher kings” have their very own “spiritual authority” to report to because they are NEVER responsible to the peasants for their hypocrisy in what they teach the peasants. The peasants must trust the “spiritual authority”. And we all know that the peasants are not qualified to make decisions about such things. They must look to the “spiritual authority” and trust they are specially anointed by God because of their title.
So basically accountability for his behavior is up to some “spiritual authority” which is often the case could be yes men he put in place!
And note. Not once does Dr Weiss suggest the guilty get out of ministry becasue he disqualified himself. Why not? Because in their world Christians remain sinners who do such things and besides all sins are the same. No big deal if you do what you preach against. That is the new normal. No growing in Holiness required for ministry.
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“Part of the very real problem with that is the democratic entrepreneurial nature of American Christianity in general.”
I am curious what you think is a better system for such things? How about 16th Century Geneva? State church? The Puritans? Ecclesiastical courts?
How about people take responsibility for whom they listen to and associate with? How about we encourage them to be led by the Holy Spirit and they, if believers, have the same anointing. 1 John.
Personally, I prefer the freedom to choose even if I choose wrong. Could the problem be the ministry caste system which circles the wagons and helps these hirlings and wolves stay in business?
I do beleive there will always be wolves and hirlings among us. Paul said in Acts 20 they would even would be among leaders he was talking with. However, I beleive the internet is acting as a sort of Gutenburg Press of our time and it is getting harder for them to operate they way they have been used to. In fact, it becomes a problem concderning money a lot quicker.
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“Could the problem be the ministry caste system which circles the wagons and helps these hirlings and wolves stay in business?”
Don’t forget the snakes and pigs.
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Too many churches and other organizations are too willing to restore fallen pastors or leaders to their former positions. The minimum requirements recommended by experts in the field is two years away from the church/organization, with perhaps health insurance coverage, weekly sessions with a trained counselor with experience in dealing with fallen pastors, clearance by the counselor to resume some responsibilities under a weekly schedule of counseling sessions AND with an accountability group selected by others than the fallen pastor, two more years of success in the reduced responsibilities, then unanimous consent of the counselor and accountability group, at which point the organization can meet without the fallen pastor to determine whether restoration is appropriate at that point. Not an easy process, and few fallen pastors make a successful return, though some are returned outside such a process.
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Polygraph test…really? I’ve done one of those before, and it did not build trust in anyone involved, although I “passed” it. Such a test measures a person’s response to questions, and attempt to measure lies/truth, but they do not measure the heart, which is really what anyone who loves the man really cares about. And, if anyone in the process does not love Doug Philips, they really don’t have much business being involved in his restoration process, me thinks. That would kind of go against the Bible.
It seems best that the restoration process should be carried out through the ministry of his church, along with those who are his friends and know him well–so the issue of timing is kind of hard to pin down. Has he attempted to step back into ministry? That would seem strange to me; but if he’s simply stepped down, and is waiting to see how the HS communicates with his church, family, friends, etc., in the matter, that seems about what I’d be doing if I were in his shoes….
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I do have to agree that a polygraph test is probably useless, because sociopaths can pass them rather easily.
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
It’s not really the pathological lying trait that gives them the ability to pass these tests as much as their lack of remorse or guilt.
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Lydia – I don’t have an alternate system in mind; just describing part of why it is so easy for folks to get ‘back in business’ so to speak. I appreciate the freedom to choose.
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It’s a known Heresy called CLERICALISM, something for which these Fundies and Truly Reformed are always denouncing the Catholic Church.
Clericalism means that Full-Time Professional Christians form an elite caste which alone has standing before God. All the rest of us laity can go to Hell.
Whether that Full-Time Professional Christian caste are called Priests, Monks, and Nuns or Pastors, Missionaries, and Worship(music) Leaders. Whether the qualification is formal ordainment, honorary doctorate, or speaking in tongues. Or Big Name Celebrity Pastor/Dictators and their boards of Elders.
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@An Attorney:
Or they take the Ted Haggard/Jimmy Swaggart route and Plant a New Church (with guess who as Founding Pastor) to sidestep the process.
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JA, they supported the former wife until she remarried and continue to support the other lady and her child when payments don’t show up. The thinking among the deacons is that the church is just as responsible for the actions of the pastor, including the fallout for his sins. So when he fathered a child out of wedlock while still the pastor of the church, the church is responsible for making certain that the children suffer as little as possible.
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I think it is important to keep in mind the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. (restoration)
I hope that Doug Phillips repents and produces authentic fruit of repentance.
As a Christian, I am called to forgive, but reconciliation is a matter of wisdom.
If my financial planner embezzles from me, I may forgive him, but I sure would not put him around my money again!
There seems to a belief that Christian forgiveness must include restoration.
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Mandy,
I am truly amazed any organized church voluntarily took on responsibility for their pastor’s misconduct in the manner you are describing. It is very refreshing.
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Wow, Mandy – that’s what I call Christian charity. To me, that’s what churches should be about, although I cannot see the case you’re talking about being the norm. It’s good to know, however, that there are church boards who take that much interest in their ‘flock’. I’m impressed.
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“If my financial planner embezzles from me, I may forgive him, but I sure would not put him around my money again!”
I might also show up at his/her sentencing hearing. While I would understand forgiveness to require that we not seek our own vengeance, I am also given to understand that it is O.K. to let God work his justice.
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” (Romans 12:19, ESV)
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Julie Anne
You ask @ NOVEMBER 7, 2013 @ 5:54 AM…
“Amos???? where are you?”
I’m in “Chortling” Heaven – Thanks to your posts about Doug Phillips.
I’ve been reading along – for days – so many comments – so little time..
You have presented this information and questions quite well.
And I admit to “Chortling” whenever someone – Who has bought the lie…
Will try and try to defend this guy. 😉
And “Chortle” when the deceived become a little snarky…
Trying to defend this “Patriarchy.”
And “Chortle” and “Chortle” over “sunshine mary”
Even though she is dark and scary.
And “Chortle” when someone mentions “Church Leaders”
Who always become the “Deception Breeders.”
And “Chortle” when someone who mis-appropriates the “Title” pastor…
Tries to convince ALL he is NOT an alternate “Master.”
And “Chortle” when a pastor who has mis-appropriated that “Title”
That belongs only to Jesus… In the Bible…
Tries to convince ALL – That this “Title” is NOT an “Idol.”
Just a thought – If a pastor says – their “Title” is NOT an “Idol”
Just ask them to “Lay that “Title” Down” and see what happens… 😉
Yes – “Chortling” Heaven…
2 Pet 2:1
But there were *false prophets* also among the people,
even as there shall be *false teachers* among you,
Jer 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man *that trusteth in man,*
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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If I were in Michelle’s shoes, I would speak at his sentencing requesting that he be required to make full restitution while under court supervision, whether incarcerated or on probation/parole, at some modest rate of interest on what he took. And to say, I do forgive him but I should be restored to my position from before the offense.
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Just finished reading Libby Anne’s article in Homeschoolers Anonymous that Julie Anne linked above. In it, she ends by quoting Lana from Wide Open Ground:
“It’s not the affair that irks me. Whatever there. We all get messy. It’s that he said I couldn’t be trusted to go to college. And he said I couldn’t be trusted to be pure before marriage if went on dates or to college or whatever. . . .
This is what Mr. Philips needs to do.
He needs say look folks, I get it now. I’m messed up human like the rest of us, men aren’t better than women, and assuredly men in Christian leadership aren’t better than a lay woman. In fact, most of you are probably doing better than me.
And then he needs to get out of his daughters’ way.
Yeah, that right there. He needs to say it.”
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Julie Anne
But – You were asking for numbers…
And yes – Voddie Baucham isn’t even close – False Teacher anyone… 😉
***Francis A. Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership Development – Says…
http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/?articleid=36562&columnid=
“Three hundred fifteen (315 or 30%) said they had either been in an ongoing affair or a one-time sexual encounter with a parishioner.”
That’s 3 out of ten – 30% – Who **admit to having and affair…
Is that a small number?
And that’s NOT all…
• 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
• 70% do NOT have someone they consider a close friend.
• 70% constantly fight depression
• 57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go.
Wow – Half – 1 out of 2 – Do NOT want to be in that pulpit…
And these are the guys who are – runnin this horse and pony show…
Doesn’t give me much confidence in todays pastor/leader/reverends…
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Seems to Me…
This guy Doug Phillips – Is a good example – eeerrr…
No – Phillips is a bad example – errrr…
This guy is a – perfect example – of why…
NOT one of His Disciples had the “Title/Postion” – pastor/leader/reverend.
Most today do NOT start out wanting to steal the Glory, the Honor,
that belongs only to Jesus – As the “ONE” Shepherd…
They just do NOT refuse that Honor when it comes…
Are todays pastor/leader/reverends…
Taking the Name of the Lord thy God? And taking that Name in Vain?
Isa 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name:
and *my glory* will I NOT give to another…
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Looks like (pastoral) Rank Hath Its Privileges.
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As in Pavement Princesses and Lot Lizards?
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Hannah asked:
In the Vision Forum or Homeschool Fundyworld, women are at home having and raising babies (and eventually helping with grand babies). Housekeeping is for women/girls. In fact, in some homes, girls even pick up after their brothers, serve them, make their bed, etc, all in preparation for their future as homemaker. Men would not be doing housework – that is for women to do.
What I am describing is what I hear from the rigidly extreme homes. Of course, it is up to each Patriarch to make the rules for his own family, so things may vary.
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tbc – – What drives me bonkers is all of the pastors who come to defend fallen pastors and they have no idea what they are talking about. It’s easy for them to put a church member in discipline, but to hold pastors accountable? Nope. They don’t want to touch it.
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Yuck . . . as I’ve mentioned before, that VF patriarch sounds more like slave/master roles to me.
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Mandy, I’m very impressed with the church’s response to this very sad situation. They are showing great compassion – – love in action to all involved.
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There is something utterly and completely creepy about the obsession these men have with young ladies being virgins with little to NO concern about young men being virgins. I found it rampant on SSM blog and I’m telling you, it has creeped me out. I will definitely be looking into this. Where did this come from? If anyone has any links to send, please do.
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Julie Anne, don’t you think it’s all about CONTROL??? It’s the old double-standard taken to its extreme – WHO in their right mind buys into this???
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Carment said:
JA response: control freaks
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I see no reason why a pastor who betrays his profession should ever be eligible to go back into the job. It’s not that there is nothing else for him to do—it’s a big world out there. Neither is there a dearth of pastors. Losing a license happens. It is a consequence.
With all the legalist Christians’ blather about authority and law, it is actually a no-brainer. That they start talking about mercy and forgiveness only when the powerful fall on their faces shows a deep corruption.
Ken, you wrote (7:49am): “…it seems best that the restoration process should be carried out through the ministry of his church….” That would be useful only if he isn’t surrounded by yes-men. Since many of these kinds of people do not have any other kinds of friends, I’d recommend against it. We need to establish a Christian Hague, ISTM.
And yes, love must be our modus operandi, but it is love for several things: the sinner and those complicit around him, the direct victim(s), the indirect victims (family and community). Also included should be our love for the pastoral profession, that we maintain its purpose and function at the highest standards.
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“Such a test measures a person’s response to questions, and attempt to measure lies/truth, but they do not measure the heart, which is really what anyone who loves the man really cares about.”
Whenever the “heart” defense is trotted out, I always think of the local news when they inevitably interview the grandma of the murderer. And she will say something what a good boy he was and he had a good heart. And people buy it!
Anyway, “hearts” don’t really matter much in this scenario because we must judge based upon words and deeds. When words and deeds don’t match, there is a problem. During the time Phillips was going around speaking on his biblical manhood/womanhood legalistic position, he was engaging in the opposite of what he taught. Living a lie while speaking the opposite to crowds. And he was making a profit from being a hypocrite. People believed him. He is just another charlatan in a long line of charlatans making bank off Jesus with their pet doctrines.
Seems he did not really believe what he told others. And he was doing this while a professing Christian AND a pastor/Christian leader. And many folks want us to think such things are no big deal or normal. In fact, I am seeing some “admiration” for his vague “letter” in many quarters. After all, he is just a sinner and we all sin. Problem is, I know too many average humble Christians who live moral, ethical lives day in and out to fall for the drivel being passed out as “correct doctrine”.
As to the “heart” defense. Too many people fall for that. If his heart was right, he would go to obscurity and most likely not be heard from again in any Christian celebrity capacity making bank off Jesus. Too bad there are people out there that will enable him to make a comeback.
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Mandy, what you told us about that church helping the women is what it is all about. Praise God for such people.
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“There is something utterly and completely creepy about the obsession these men have with young ladies being virgins with little to NO concern about young men being virgins. I found it rampant on SSM blog and I’m telling you, it has creeped me out. I will definitely be looking into this. Where did this come from? If anyone has any links to send, please do.”
Same underlying principles are taught in Islam. I am just glad these guys have no civil authority to carry out beheadings on rape victims. A woman’s life is over in Patriarchy if she is “damaged goods”. And in some circles, it is the father or brothers doing the raping!
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There is a lot to be gleaned from the James 3:13-18 passage. Something about godly wisdom and its fruit or the lack thereof!
“13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
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This comment came in at Doug Wilson’s blog.
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Oh, boy. Where to start?
“The betrayal of Jesus Christ by Peter,” Did he really just equate DP with Jesus Christ? What heresy!
“Democracy is nearly always an antithesis of Truth and no where does it rear an ugly face much more than when faced with Biblical Doctrine which most consider repugnant.” Yep. Theocracy is the way to go!
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“I estimate that a majority of us probably are not as holy as we portray ourselves to be.” Oh? Do tell.
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“One evidence of Vision Forum’s faithfulness to scripture is the opposition it draws from nominal Christians and spiritual liberals.” Or. maybe they’re just warning against false teachings.
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Ayatollah Khomeini and Mullah Omar would agree.
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“God did not blot out the Psalms just because David was involved in adultery.” Correct. He allowed David’s son to die.
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@JulieAnne:
“All Animals are Equal
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!”
— G.Orwell, Animal Farm
Otherwise known as “Rank Hath Its Privileges.”
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
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“Most of the Churches are a disgrace to the Body of Christ and Vision Forum’s main sin has been to remind Churches of the need to be faithful to Scripture.” IDK. The church Mandy described sounds amazing. And they’ve probably never even heard of VF, nor could care less.
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“I believe that God has used and is using Vision Forum to reform the Church” Oh, goody! Another Reformation!
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“There is something utterly and completely creepy about the obsession these men have with young ladies being virgins with little to NO concern about young men being virgins. I found it rampant on SSM blog and I’m telling you, it has creeped me out. I will definitely be looking into this. Where did this come from? If anyone has any links to send, please do.”
To understand SSM’s blog and commenters, you need to understand the manosphere.
The manosphere is a bunch of blogs that are comprised of pick up artist and “game” followers, mens rights activists,Men going their own way, the christian wing of the sphere, Evo psyche, human bio diversity types and paleo diet stuff.
They want young women because they feel that women “hit the wall” in attractiveness by 25. (It used to be thirty, but the number keeps getting lowered.)
They want virgins and there’s a better chance of that at a younger age. They want virgins because they think that they will bond better with them. According to the pua types and evo psyche types (really, they’re all the same crowd for the most part) claim that women who aren’t virgin’s won’t bond properly and are more likely to divorce.
They aren’t concerned about men keeping their virginity because they want the men to be alpha males. They believe that because of the feminization of churches and society and the rise of female promiscuity, men have become betas.
What do all of these blogs have in common. They hate feminism (and women, even if they deny it.). They support patriarchy, evo psych as it pertains to sexual psychology, despise beta males, even if they identify as such, and despise single moms, divorced women, “spinsters” and…..cats. Oh yes, let’s not forget, they hate chivalry, child support, alimony and “mangina’s/white knights” (men who stick up for women)
They are obsessed with domination/ submission, and feel that by “taking the red pill” or learning “game” they will be alpha, and more attractive to women and or a wife. Through game, they will be able to control women and outcomes, as evo psych and game teach that women want to be dominated and won’t respect them or be attracted otherwise.
The pua types push dark triad traits. In other wards, narcissism and sociopathy. That the Christian arm of the manosphere doesn’t care about this is telling.
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“That the Christian arm of the manosphere doesn’t care about this is telling.”
They may be egged on by the presence of Mark Driscoll .http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brett-gallaher/jesus-mark-driscoll-date_b_4173984.html
Chortle. Chortle.
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They hate Mark Driscoll. They consider him a mangina/white knight. To even mention his name gets them riled up.
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Well, jv, thank you for enlightening us. Some things I’d rather not know about, but it is helpful to know what we’ve inadvertently stepped in.
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I was gathering my thoughts to respond to this, but fortunately I hit the Refresh button before responding, as my comment would have been a near duplicate of jv’s response.
You see, a woman’s ability to pair bond with one man decreases exponentially the higher her “n count” (number of partners). A man, well, not so much, because men can compartmentalize, so his “n count” does not affect his ability to pair bond with one woman. On the contrary, the higher a man’s “n count”, the more attractive he is to women, so it’s important that he obtains as much sexual experience as he can.
And if you found that your short-lived visit to SSM’s blog was “quite a ride”, be doubly prepared if you decide to take a trip down that rabbit hole known as the Manosphere.
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Love it!
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Indeed!! He tells men to “man up”, and them’s fightin’ words.
I’m not a Driscoll fan, either, but for various other reasons.
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“I believe that God has used and is using Vision Forum to reform the Church” Oh, goody! Another Reformation!”
LOL! My sentiments exactly.
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“God did not blot out the Psalms just because David was involved in adultery.” Correct. He allowed David’s son to die.”
Not to mention the Psalms are “man talking to God” in poetry. Sheesh!
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“Democracy is nearly always an antithesis of Truth and no where does it rear an ugly face much more than when faced with Biblical Doctrine which most consider repugnant.” Yep. Theocracy is the way to go!”
Yes, they are dreaming of being the next Calvin or John Winthrop.
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It’s dark. And extreme. But worth knowing about. I suspect that as time goes on, you’re going to see the victims show up.
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“To understand SSM’s blog and commenters, you need to understand the manosphere.”
Oh my. Do we have to? Seriously, your comment is great and touches on many of the things I saw back when I first started reading around the blogosphere when some had flown the Patriarchy coop. They wrote about it. A lot. It read like a surreal world. It would be one thing if they were in a compound but they are walking around looking like normal people except for some prairie dresses with keds. But my reading on some of the inbreeding in the IFB world sounds like they are cousins and the tree did not fork.
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“It’s dark. And extreme. But worth knowing about. I suspect that as time goes on, you’re going to see the victims show up.”
Well, we’re not Motel 6, but we’ll leave the light on for them when they are finally ready to escape that darkness.
My friend and I were talking about “that” place today and we both got the creeps wondering where we had landed. It tilted my creepo meter the same way in which Wilson and his conquering and colonizing did.
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Btw, Bruce’s pingback below is a worthwhile read.
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‘”One evidence of Vision Forum’s faithfulness to scripture is the opposition it draws from nominal Christians and spiritual liberals.” Or. maybe they’re just warning against false teachings.’
I know BTDT. This is another clueless person who may have read a couple of decent blog articles by Phillips, but has no idea of the Vision Forum CULTure.
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It’s creepy alright. And SSM’s blog is one of the “lighter ” one’s. There’s far darker in the sphere.
Anyhow, I like your blog, and glad that I came across it.
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Patrice NOVEMBER 7, 2013 @ 12:22 PM
I agree. There is no need for anyone, and especially Doug Phillips himself, to be thinking about reinstatement or coming back or any such thing. If the man is truly sorry, then he isn’t thinking about “coming back to his former positions” at all. He should be seeking to build trust with his wife and children and working (period). I don’t really care if he comes back to the Vision Forum business. It is his business. He has a right to the business he built. I don’t know if that business will continue to be the great source of income for him and his family that it has been in the past. My personal opinion would be for the business to shut down because I don’t want his ideologies to be spread any further.
As far as him being submitted to his church leadership, I don’t have much faith in that, since they appear to be “yes” men. Since the relationships that have been most harmed and where he has to be most accountable is his to wife and family, I think he should answer to them for the next five years or so (the rest of his life). That is where he has to rebuild what he has shattered. He has no business leading in a church environment . . . the trust is gone.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/patriarchy-proponent-doug-phillips-resigns-after-extramarital-relationship/2013/11/07/e4217f9c-47e8-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/07/doug-phillips-affair_n_4235191.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
This article is the same as the Wash. Post. It includes a picture of the family. I feel so sorry for those poor kids. Why couldn’t he think about his kids?! Anyway, the comments are always . . . err . . . interesting.
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> Can he be restored to ministry?
My answer will be that this is a compound question which I cannot answer. “Yes” or “no” will imply that he was in Christian ministry in the first place.
I’d say he wasn’t: He did not proclaim Jesus and the power of the spirit to change. He proclaimed worldly things like humans lording it over others, leaving females unable to care for themselves, and behaving right by human effort.
> Can he return to ministry because he did not “Biblically know” her?
See the first point – IMO he cannot return because what he did was not ministry. Can he start ministry after this? Yes, with true repentance he can.
> Where does God’s grace fit in this aside from forgiveness?
God’s grace can theoretically renew him, and make him fit for ministry.
But if God’s grace renew him, he will repent of all those he hurt by the Vision Forum message. He will destroy all products (books, DVDs, etc) in his business stock that sells that message. (He don’t have to destroy things like toys – you can sell a doll with saying girls should have only one role.) The money he made from Vision Forum will go towards helping those hurt by extreme authority doctrine. For example, it could be used to help set up a cult deprogramming home for daughters from extremely controlling families, where they are taught the job skills and emotional skills they never learned in homes where they were not expected to grow up. If he does all that, he will be suited to do ministry.
> Are we cruel and heartless to not want him to go back into ministry?
We know of a lot of wounded sheep from Vision Forum “ministry”. It would be cruel and heartless to let him continue.
> Is this really not our business?
When our fellow Christians get hurt, we have to warn our sisters and brothers.
> Is it cold-hearted to keep someone out of ministry altogether after this kind of sin?
It depends on what is meant with “this kind of sin.” I would say that yes, if someone had an emotional affair, was sorry, and clearly wanted to minister because he loves God and not for financial gain, it would be cruel to prevent him. But if someone gave out wrong messages that keep thousands in bondage, and wanted to “minister” because that is where he gets his money from, it would be cruel to not keep him out.
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i’m going to take a break from commenting here (i’ll still be reading). i’m going through a nasty arthritis attack in my right hand that will not let up so i need to stop being so stubborn and actually rest my hand for once. keep up the good work here.
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Great questions asked about Phillips’ public statement at this blog:
http://surphside.blogspot.com/2013/11/questions-and-thoughts-about-vision.html
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Retha, you did a good job of directing an insightful response to each of the questions that JA presented. A thoughtful response, worth reading. Well done!
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Mandy
Praying with you…
Something that has helped me in the past to overcome pain is…
Knowing about His B.L.O.O.D.
B.ountiful L.ove O.veromes O.ur D.isease – By the BLOOD of Jesus.
His BLOOD was shed to cleanse “WE” from our sin. 1Jo 1:7, Re 1:5, Eph 1:7.
His BLOOD was shed for “WE” thru His wounds for our healing. 1Pe 2:24, Mt 8:17.
His BLOOD was shed to purchase “WE,” His Body, His Church. Ac 20:28.
My prayer Lord is…
Arthritis Pain, Mandy was purchased by God with His BLOOD…
Mandy belongs to Jesus – She is His Property…
And – You, Arthritis Pain, are trespassing on God’s property…
Mandy does NOT want you anymore…
Go in the name of Jesus…
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Amen, Amos! Hope things get better for you, Mandy.
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Or Ayatollah Khomeini or Mullah Omar.
Wielding absolute POWER over others by Divine Right.
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Or Comrade Trotsky’s Doctrine of Continuous Revolution with a Christianese coat of paint.
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If one believes in the priesthood of each and every believer, then democracy is a natural outgrowth in and outside the church. All of us stand equal before God and should stand equal before humanity. Power is corrupt, always has been and always will be, except when God is the one with power, and His love is his greatest power and his dominant characteristic.
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