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Doug Phillips: a timeline of events, understanding true repentance and question about Phillips’ teaching elder position at Boerne Christian Assembly
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“Over the years, my sensitivity to these problems has only heightened, until several years ago, I set about to align with men who were sounding the alarm of truth and offering Biblical answers to the problems we are facing. Doug Phillips was one of those men, and Vision Forum was one of those ministries which the Lord has providentially raised up at this time in history to rebuild our Christ honoring foundations, one family at a time.” Scott Brown, director of National Center for Family-Integrated Churches
I’ve gotten a little flack from various well-known names regarding the comments on my previous post, Doug Phillips Resigns from Office of President at Vision Forum, Discontinues Speaking Engagements. One thought is about how wrong it is to “chortle” over the news of Doug Phillips stepping down as president of Vision Forum Ministries (he did not mention stepping down from the for-profit arm of Vision Forum). I don’t think anyone has been doing any chortling (gotta love that word), but people might be glad that truth is exposed because that is the beginning of healing. But some have been saying people should remain quiet and pray for him and his family as he has shown great humility by his public statement.
We all want a happy ending which includes repentance and restoration, but it’s important to test the waters and see the fruit evidenced. Part of that evidence included this:
Is Doug Phillips still a teaching elder/pastor at his church, Boerne Christian Assembly?
This was first question that came to my mind after the big news this week of Phillips stepping down. If this man, who taught others how to have godly families, how men should be godly husbands and fathers, had fallen into sin – – so much that he felt the need to resign his Vision Forum Ministry position as president, then what about the even more important ministry work – – that of shepherding of God’s flock?
I checked the Boerne Christian Assembly website when the news broke and saw Phillips’ name still listed as elder (elder is the same as pastor in family-integrated churches):
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The question as to whether or not Phillips remains in his position as teaching elder is an important question as it helps people to be able to examine the validity of his statement of repentance. If families are looking to this man for godly teaching, yet he has recently been living a life contrary to what he is teaching, this is a problem of integrity and moral character.
Someone left this comment on my previous article about Phillips stepping down from his elder position at his church:
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I’m uncomfortable posting an anonymous comment as fact. I need more than that. Well, yesterday, more credible information came in via Voddie Baucham’s Facebook page. If you recall, Baucham and Phillips are good buddies. They both follow the family-integrated church model, are into similar ideologies of Patriarchy, Homeschool Movement, courtship, etc. They speak together at conferences. Here’s a snippet of screenshot from a father/daughter retreat in which both Phillips and Baucham spoke.
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(By the way, if you want to get a good idea of what these guys teach at a father/daughter retreat, check out the message titles.)
Ok, so now that we have established that Baucham and Phillips have pretty close ties, I think Baucham is a pretty credible source when he says this on Facebook, not once, but twice – that Phillips has in fact stepped down as elder from his church.
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Take a look at this, however. Phillips must have felt like his life was in order enough to speak at a conference put on by FORGE Ministries held less than two months ago: “Engage the Battle” and “Master’s Plan for Fatherhood,” which included familiar names, Kevin (Embedded-Fetuses) Swanson and Scott Brown.
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This female blogger has questions.
What compelled Phillips to resign this week? Why didn’t he step down from the Vision Forum Ministries president position in February when he allegedly stepped down from his teaching-elder position? Why, if he felt the necessary to step down from his elder position, did he continue speaking on topics such as godly fathering, godly husbands when his own marriage and home life were going through their own battle?
We talk about spiritual abuse here. We study false teachers. Many of us missed the warning signs in our own churches. So now, in order to prevent that from happening again, we study so as not to repeat the same mistakes. We watch Christian leaders use their positions of leadership inappropriately, say one thing, do another, etc. Some of us probably have trust issues. We want to see the fruit in a leader’s life, which is a Biblical response. We want to see true repentance before we can trust.
What does true repentance look like?
I typed a phrase for a Google search: “what does repentance look like?” and found a sermon entitled, “What Does True Repentance Look Like?” by none other than Scott Brown, Doug Phillips’ friend whom he recently spoke with at the fatherhood conference shown above.
The date of the posting was February 28, 2013 (sermon was actually given April of 2011). I have no way of knowing if Brown knew of Phillips stepping down from his elder position around that time, or of any personal matter, but find the February timing strangely coincidental.
So, what does repentance look like? Let’s see what Mr. Brown said:
How do you define repentance?
Notice that John uses a verb metanoew (meta-no-eh’-o) which means to turn and change. In this sense, John has a turning ministry. And in many ways we have that same kind of ministry. Our job is to go out into the world to call for repentance – for turning, because repentance is turning. Most people are turning from either an intentional lifestyle of irreverent God hating wickedness or, religiosity and moral fakery. These are the two kinds of people that were actually out coming to John in the wilderness.
Having experienced a 7.9 earthquake, I appreciated this word picture when describing repentance:
True repentance is like an earthquake of the soul that changes the configuration of your life. And it is like the restructuring of the earth happens when the hills are brought down and the valleys are raised up. This is the radical restructuring of life that is true Christianity.
Brown continued with the earthquake illustration:
So these are the earthquakes of the soul, that come from the pressure points that are building in people’s lives. At some point there is a breaking point, a metanoeo, a restructuring of life. These changes all come from the question, “What do I do with the things that God has given me?” The answer is, repent and let the landscape change. You may ask, “What do I do with my job?” Repent; let the landscape of your labors change. You may ask, “What do I do with my family?” Repent; let the landscape of your family change. You may ask, “What do I do with my church?” Repent; let the landscape of your church life change.
Those are strong words. You can find Brown’s complete sermon on repentance here.
Scott Brown does a good job describing repentance. A lot of people have been hurt by Phillips directly and indirectly. There are many personal accounts scattered throughout the internet. At some point you have to say either they are all bogus or there is a pattern. Well, now he has publicly confessed to an affair with a woman. Yes, I think we are looking for these signs of repentance from this very prominent and respected Christian leader. Should we not expect any less?
Interestingly, just recently, in August of 2013, Doug Phillips himself wrote on the topic of repentance in a blog article. Here is an excerpt:
Restitution: Those who experience godly sorrow and true repentance will desire to make restitution to the victim. There is a spiritual debt to God himself which they can never pay and which only the blood of Christ will satisfy. But there is a temporal debt to their fellow man which they must be willing to pay. It is not enough that they will cease and desist from the wrongdoing. They will do whatever is necessary to heal those they have injured by restoring to them what they have taken. Godly sorrow produces such compassion for the injured party that the penitent man aches to bring health and wholeness to those he has injured.
Phillips’ public ministry and pastoral ministry has affected many lives. We are all hoping and praying that there is complete repentance, including restitution to those harmed.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
“. There are other books available, but I would rather see you collecting the royalties than the likes of, say, Saul Alinsky.”
Hee Hee. You got it. The “method” is right out of Rules for Radicals. But are you picking up on the Pagan Greek Philosophy right out of Plato that is the underlying theme? The dualism? This is what was interposed into Christianity a few hundred years after Christ and spread like wildfire. It was the foundation of the Catholic church and requisite state church mentality. Funny how history repeats itself in various ways.
It is the caste system. You see, there are specially anointed people to be in charge of us adults in marriage and the body. You have it better than me because of your physical anatomy. I am lower in the caste system than you are. Now, if you turn out to be nice then all is ok. But if you are a tyrant, well, those under your authority will be rewarded by God for enabling your evil and/or enduring whatever manifestation your authority takes. Roll of the dice really. Of course, many tyrants, narcissists and sociopaths are attracted to that system and why not? A perfect place to operate..
Talk about infantilizing women. They are usually compared to children in the hierarchy caste system. They are up the chain a bit when it comes to the children until the phallic symbol enters the room.
I suppose all this makes them feel pious? :o)
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Sorry Gary. That “hee hee” was supposed to be a “chortle”.
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Interesting. So you think church elders have more expertise in weeding out truth/lies than trained experts in the field of abuse? What training does the average pastor have on abuse issues? How many classes have they taken in seminary *if* they went to seminary?
My former pastor didn’t even graduate from seminary, yet he was intimately involved in people’s lives – – telling them who they could associate with, who their kids could court, telling parents how they should be disciplining their kids. Unreal. Wow . . . and folks wonder why people are leaving churches in droves?
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Tbc
I do agree that wives are called to submit to their husbands. I don’t have one, don’t particularly desire one, and really don’t anticipate that I ever will, but, if I had a husband, I would love him and submit to his authority in a biblical (not patriarchal) way. Which, I agree with you, biblical submission absolutely does not include submitting when I disagree with him on grounds that he is biblically wrong. But wait, that’s not very patriarchal! It assumes that I, a woman, am capable of understanding the scriptures as well as a man– and that I have a responsibility to do so. It even assumes that I, a woman, can go so far as to disobey my husband even if I mistakenly believe my husband is biblically wrong. That isn’t what I’d call patriarchy, so perhaps we are back to the problem of definitions. I think what you and I just agreed on has even been labeled “feminist” by pro-patriarchal commenters in this site. Definitions again.
That said, you are obviously a caring and compassionate elder in your church. Whether or not you agree with me on any of the previous points, I implore you, please, prepare yourself and your session ahead of time for responding to abuse situations. Your comment strongly indicates that you and your church have not taken the time to do this in a thoughtful and informed way. Don’t just read books, go now to experts in this area (certified, licensed counselors, attorneys with experience protecting victims, juvenile court judges, etc.) and develop response mechanisms to handle the various types of situations that can arise (including those where the victim is reticent to call child services). This will equip you to recognize signs of abuse, and to evaluate and respond appropriately to any accusation, especially the valid ones. You may have some legal reporting duties depending on your state, but more importantly, your comment indicates that your church has never bothered with an informed, well-designed plan of response that is fair to all involved. If they had, you as an elder should have been informed of it. You wouldn’t be having to imagine what you’d do in those situations.
This is not intended to be legal advice; if you seek legal advice with regard to such a plan, consult an attorney (not me) who can deal competently with the appropriate liability concerns without compromising the church’s responsibility to its hurting members.
Thank you for your kind response. I wish all elders were more like you.
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“I tend to agree with you here. I prefer the idea of having responsibilities toward people that we are in relationship with be it at home, work, charity, church, society, etc. The responsibilities that I have taken on by way of commitment verbally, contractually, or by being born in the image of God, should be fulfilled in love, not because of ‘authority.’”
Totally agree. In fact, it is harder to operate that way but Christlike.
Take the example of children they are so fond of trotting out. I take the view I am NOT raising children but future adults. With that thinking in mind, my responsibility is to prepare them to operate in the Body and navigate the world as believers. That does not work when there is always an appeal to “authority”. Do I want them operating mostly out of fear or love and responsibility toward others?
Do I want girls to be doormats or intelligent women who have the ability think critically gaining wisdom and led by the Holy Spirit? If they choose to marry, I would prefer their example to be one of a blessed alliance and not a phallocentristic caste system. The stories coming out of that movement of how girls are treated is criminal. And what is more scary is many women choose it. I think it is a cop out and a way to hide
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tbc says to me “You are just wrong logically and biblically on this issue.”
Maybe, but I’m not going to accept that assertion on your authority. You may be able to cite a number of examples where authority is legitimately held and exercised, but you can’t extrapolate those instances to establish that the exercise of authority as between believers is Scriptural. Neither can you legitimately infer authority from exhortations to submit–particularly where the exhortation for a ife to submit is followed by an exhortation for husband’s to love. Wives are to submit to love, not authority.
It won’t surprise me if you are aware of other examples, but I can only think of two places where Scripture mentions one believer having authority over other believers. In one instance, the authority is reciprocal. Husbands and wives have authority over each others bodies (and I am of the opinion that were a husband to enforce his authority by force, threats or other coercive means, he would be guilty of rape). In the other example I can think of, Paul declined to exercise authority he claimed as an apostle.
So, unless you can point me to Scripture specifically referring to the authority of one believer over another, not related to sexual relations or apostolic ministry, you are just wrong logically and biblically on this issue.
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” I would hope she would steadfastly refuse, entreat me to repent, and if I persisted, leave and remove the children from harm all the while praying and hoping for my repentance”
This makes no sense if you claim to be saved. Oh wait. I forgot. In your construct it is up to others to pray you into repentance even though you have a god anointed position by way of your physical anatomy.
But, what on earth does your Holy Spirit do, anyway, if you claim to be saved? Oh, I forgot. Your elder is your Holy Spirit. (And if you are the big boss elder then we are really in trouble because no matter what you do, it is up to others to pray you into repentance because the Holy Spirit is awol?)
I know the answer!!! You guys just redefine sin. It is that simple.
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Did you guys know the ONLY TIME a Greek word for authority is used in conjunction with the marriage relationship is in 1 Corin 7?
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tbc:
I also want to thank you for the respectful tone in which you have expressed here with my readers who can at times be very opinionated/blunt on a hot topic – probably just as much as marysunshine’s site.
I think what some at MSS site are missing is that my primary concern is abuse. I do not believe there is always abuse in patriarchy. That is important point.
Free At Last mentioned equipping yourselves with information about abuse. She is giving important advice. In this day and age, churches must be equipped to handle abuse appropriately. Sovereign Grace Ministries is currently in the middle of a civil lawsuit because of failing to report sex abuse cases. The Catholic Church, Penn State, Boy Scouts have paid out lots of $$ because of their failure to handle abuse cases appropriately.
There are many steps churches can take to protect themselves, i.e, do the doors to the nurseries have windows? Is there a plan in place if a registered sex offender comes to the church to worship? Who takes children to the bathroom and what rules are in place? Are their background checks done on all who work with children? You can find important information here: http://netgrace.org
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@A Mom:
And if Widdle Wifey objects or complains, Godly Hubby pulls rank on her.
“GOD HATH SAID!”
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Gary, I have neither the time nor the inclination to continue on this particular issue at the moment, so please accept a rain check on that discussion which is probably better had in any event outside of the shadow of issues of spiritual abuse.
Free at Last – thank you for your kind words. I can only hope that I am as caring and compassionate as you paint me, and yes, it has been a while since I ‘read up’ on the legal issues vis-a-vis reporting requirements. Truthfully many churches (being rather small and essentially volunteer led) don’t have much time nor resources to invest in these issues — which is not to say they are unimportant. It is just that they tend to get dealt with on an as-needed basis. Larger churches tend to have policies and so forth that guide their responses. It is a needed area of development for most churches. I’ve known of one (rumoured) case of physical abuse or better said of domestic fighting in recent years, but it was only suspected, was not confirmed nor reported by either party and in any case seems to have ceased. It was a young couple, young in their marriage, both hot-headed and I suspect a bit immature. They are getting on quite well now by all accounts though I am not in much touch with them.
As to the other, I think I and others may be talking past each other given the loaded nature of the term ‘patriarchy’. It seems to have a connotation here of which I was previously unaware, except in feminist theologies and feminism generally. That there are groups espousing some extremist views concerning husbands’ authority viz their wives and children, I was vaguely aware, but never thought to categorize these under the label patriarchy, but rather as extremist cults. So a bit of enlightenment there for me.
BeenThereDoneThat – I apologize if my statement was demeaning to the real concerns of ‘the least of these’. I intended rather to point out that my main point has to do with authority qua authority and not with legal reporting requirements etc. I think I have said quite plainly that abuse is sin, it should be called out and stopped. I don’t see the need for further self-flagellation to satisfy those who feel I haven’t gone far enough.
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Ok, the way I read this: he stepped down as an elder in Feb., and nobody knows why, but he is still listed as an elder on his church’s website. After Feb., and indeed after his most recent resignation, he has spoken at conferences. No?
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“I would hate to be in a situation like that as an elder (I mean a situation where abuse is alleged) because it is very difficult to suss out exactly what to do. It would be irresponsible to do nothing. It would also be wrong just to take one person’s word. Calling in social services is not likely to necessarily improve the situation (and may not even be what the victim wants). I ‘think’ what I would counsel though would be an immediate separation while trying to sort out next steps, though of course if the accuser appears to be in immediate harm then more drastic measures might be needed (e.g. asking her / him to call the police or I will)….”
This paragraph only proves you have no clue. When it comes to the molestation and abuse of children, most children never report it to anyone because they have been groomed not to. If it comes out, it will most likely be when they are adults and have the courage. Predators know this. Predators are very clever.
Women do not usually leave abusive marriages in the patriarchal movement because they have been infantilized and have no resources. And are most likely to not be able to keep their children because they have no skills outside of the home and cannot afford a good lawyer. And they have been so beaten down they are intimidated. They have been kept from learning how to think or navigate even the most foundational living skills.. There are even networks of ex pastors wives who have been horribly abused. As I think of some books that tell some of these stories, I will post them. My mind is a blank right now. The Patriarchy movement is full of such things that has been hidden for years before the internet.
The biggest problem we have is ignorance in the church. This idea of that it is wrong to take one person’s word is one reason why it goes unreported. The abused already know they won’t be believed. Add in the whole “authority” construct and you have a perfect recipe for tyrants who are attracted to that system. And for some, such living is normal. After all, it is up to the abused to “pray” him out of it. Even when such a person claims to be saved.
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“It seems to have a connotation here of which I was previously unaware, except in feminist theologies and feminism generally. ”
See how it works? It got slipped in there. So what is feminist theology? No one from that movement will answer me. Wonder why?
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Paul: Keep reading the comments. Brian posted a comment indicating that they have now updated the Boerne Christian Assembly website, removing Phillips’ name and replacing with another elder’s name.
I do not believe he has had any speaking engagements since the public statement which was posted October 30, 2013.
It looks like 2 weeks ago, he videotaped this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glz2wiYZr3k
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“Julie Anne on November 4, 2013 at 12:48 PM
It is an elder (or any mature Christian) responsibility to investigate abuse to the extent that it is a discipleship issue with legal / criminal implications. That is why I said it isn’t always easy to suss out what is really going on. People do lie (unfortunately) and they lie about things like rape and abuse which is quite terrible for all involved.”
Tbc- although I’ve said a bundle already, let me add that i agree with Julie Anne. Elders handling abuse allegations in-house is inadequate and enables abuse. Church discipline is appropriate; church discipline as judge and jury, and as the architect of solutions to abuse, is not. That is why I implored you to educate yourselves and plan some informed responses.
Also: false allegations of abuse are unjust not only to the accused, but also because they wrongly make it harder for those who come forward with real accusations to be heard and believed. However, in most cases women and children smart enough to successfully perpetrate such a fraud are also smart enough to realize that the father (in patriarchal situations) is the breadwinner and allegations of abuse could cost them everything, not to mention subjecting them to some very unpleasant (even hostile) scrutiny. Not to say people don’t lie, but there is very little incentive to do so, particularly in patriarchal churches.
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tbc: “Gary, I have neither the time nor the inclination to continue on this particular issue at the moment, so please accept a rain check on that discussion which is probably better had in any event outside of the shadow of issues of spiritual abuse.”
Actually, spiritual abuse and the illegitimate, corrupt exercise of authority are nearly synonymous. Maybe they are synonymous.
As to your having neither the time nor the inclination to continue the discussion, well, I guess I had best take you at your word that it is a matter of time and inclination, but I will confess that I entertained some cynical suspicions.
Really, though, I do appreciate your courteous tone.
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lydiasellerofpurple (great name btw) — feminist theology is a fairly well known branch of theology with its origins primarily in 2nd wave feminist critiques of traditional scriptural hermeneutics amongst other things. Typically it is characterized by what is termed a ‘hermeneutic of suspicion’, that is, the reader is supposed to interrogate the text (in this case of the Bible) with an eye towards retaining that which confirms or validates her own lived experience and to reject as oppressive those which do not. I’m muddling the whole thing terribly as feminist theology is not exactly my field, but that is the basic layout.
For the feminist theologian, theology in general and scriptural hermeneutics in particular have been co-opted as tools for patriarchal oppression of women by using masculinist language and narratives to paint women as always and only whores or virgins and as perpetually inferior to men. This, they posit, extends even to the use of masculine terms for God (like Father, Son) and so some feminist theologies reject entirely the framework of Christianity as irredeemably oppressive to women and advocate going beyond Christianity to other systems of meaning, some of which are goddess based, and some of which are purely secular. Other feminist theologians seek to reform Christianity from within by retaining the superstructure of Christian thought but replacing those narratives and systems they deem to be oppressive. Both of these groups generally hold a ‘low’ view of scriptural authority. A third group seeks to retain both the language AND the framework of scriptural authority and thus argue that scripture does not mean what it has traditionally been interpreted to mean. This group might be termed Evangelical Feminists.
So there is a broad (and inadequate) sketch for you of feminist theology.
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Tbc
“and yes, it has been a while since I ‘read up’ on the legal issues vis-a-vis reporting requirements. Truthfully many churches (being rather small and essentially volunteer led) don’t have much time nor resources to invest in these issues — which is not to say they are unimportant. It is just that they tend to get dealt with on an as-needed basis.”
This as-needed basis is a real problem.
Especially for small churches. However, there are many resources for small churches in dealing with these issues. Your denomination or another one may have some; in fact, my brother, an attorney, recently did some work like this pro bono for a small church. You might fid a like-minded professional in your area willing to donate his or her time for a good cause.
You might also contact some christian ministries that serve abuse victims; they will doubtless be more than happy to help you find the resources you need.
it’s really not the legal issues i’m urging you to educate yourself about; i am not speaking to or advising you as an attorney; i am, as a survivor, asking you to consider having your session educated on what abuse is, how to recognize it, and how to respond compassionately to it.
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tbc – – Thank you! That is the best description of feminist theology I have ever read. I think I need to copy and save it for my records.
The problem I have with labels is that if I speak against abuse, the F word gets slapped on me. If I speak out publicly as a woman, the F word gets slapped on me. If I challenge a guy publicly, the F word gets slapped on me. It’s far too wide of a brush to paint everyone as Feminist when there are not clearly defined lines.
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Free At Last — I will give that some thought. It is needed and too often overlooked. And when I said that people do lie, I did not mean to imply that abuse victims just sort of waltz in lying willy-nilly about what has happened to them. I don’t believe that to be the case and I’ve never seen it happen like that. In ‘normal’ domestic violence situations (not that there should ever be such a thing), the relationship is toxic at multiple levels and violence is not continuous but episodic. And quite often it is mutual. That is why I said such things are hard to suss out. Those are the unfortunate but all too common situations where a couple fights off and on for years — threats, moving in an out, someone going to stay with momma, family pleading not to go back, kids being bounced around like crazy, but no one seems to be able to get the people to behave like normal civilized people… that kind of situation is not easy to sort out because to just say there is an abuser and a victim its usually not quite that simple (excepting children, who are generally never in a position to be anything other than victimized).
In the kind of patriarchal religious spiritually abusive cultish groups this blog seems designed to address, the ‘normal’ situation may not obtain.
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Does anybody know why this guy stepped down as an elder?
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TBC: There are few truly feminist theologians. Rather, there is a large cadre of egalitarian theologians. That is, they research and publish on the mistranslation of the scriptures by authoritarian/partiarchialist groups, such as those who did the original work in the KJV. Also the mis-understandings of the cultural circumstances of the time the particular portion of the biblical text was written, etc. Another tack is to insist on context, rather than proof-texting out of context. For more information, I suggest you look up Christians for Biblical Equality, read their statement of faith, and check out Priscilla Papers, their academically oriented joural.
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Tbc-
Thank you for being willing to consider being proactive so that when the time for wisdom comes, you will have wisdom that comes from knowledge. Peace and blessings.
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attorney – yes I am familiar with them and have read a number of books by egalitarian authors — I know the arguments quite well. Though they do not generally self-identify as feminist, they employ a similar hermeneutical approach though within a framework of accepting the validity of scriptural authority. So maybe another time we can talk about ezer kenegdo, or the real meaning of hupotasso, or kephale. But not tonight.
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Gary — before I go you said:
I think there may be common ground between us after all to continue the discussion.
All: I’m bowing out for now. Peace and blessings dear ones, and may he ‘who bore our afflictions’ likewise bear away whatever pain you’ve endured at the hands of man and bring his shalom to each of you.
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Paul – I have not seen anything mentioning why Phillips stepped down as elder. The only clues I’ve seen is in Voddie Baucham’s response that he didn’t think it was related to the public statement.
Voddie Baucham is still the only person that I’ve seen publicly stating that Phillips stepped down from his elder position (although it’s now pretty obvious since the website has removed his name).
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I agree that there does seem to be some common ground among us. Thank you, tbc. 🙂
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tbc,
Expound on 2nd wave feminist critiques if you can give examples of scholars/timeline,etc. Give us examples (ie timeline) of first wave, also.
Would say, Katherine Bushnell, be first or second wave?
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“I know the arguments quite well. Though they do not generally self-identify as feminist, they employ a similar hermeneutical approach though within a framework of accepting the validity of scriptural authority. ”
What? Are you saying here they accept what you term as “scriptural authority” or they don’t?
And which translators do you deem to have had Inspired scriptural authority?
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tbc is reeling you guys in good. Just read what he thinks are typical domestic violence situations that are impossible to “suss” out. Just think of what that movement teaches on punishing children to get a clue. Remember, the name Doug Phillips is what brought them here to defend “authority”.
If what he described above is what he thinks is in the Patriarchy movement, he is either not informed or is playing a game. It is against the law to physically assault someone. Even your spouse. Period. There is nothing to “suss” out for an elder or pastor. It is for the civil authorities to “suss” out.
I have been wondering why he keeps softening his earlier comments on “authority”. Tactic? I think so. The key is to buy into a “nice guy” authority. Authority is the key in their world. That is why he keeps slipping in “feminism”. That is their dichotomy. the only one they know. Authority/submission. or else you are a feminist and that is a sin.
So I keep going back to the Holy Spirit and wonder how that works in their world for the adult believer with no authority over others?
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“But not tonight.”
tbc seems a courteous enough sort of person, and I’m not accusing him of anything here, but one of the things that used to annoy me about some so-called pastors was that, if I raised a point they disagreed with and could not refute, they would simply refuse to discuss the matter. They would expect me to simply accept their point of view. Once I made the mistake of saying the pastor needed to show me how his position came from the Bible and that he shouldn’t expect me to simply accept him as the final authority on the matter. There was a small explosion.
tbc is at least courteous enough to tell us he doesn’t wish to discuss particular matters. Others have come here criticizing and preaching and rebuking and demanding that we respond to their questions and challenges, but if we asked questions, sometimes multiple times, we were simply ignored.
Once again, I’m not saying this about tbc, but when people like B4 Battle and Brian Thornton would ignore our questions, I rather took it that this was evidence of their ignorance — as evidence that, while they might have been well indoctrinated, they really didn’t understand what they were talking about. They only knew the talking points.
With pastors, however, it maybe was a subtle form of then-unrecognized spiritual abuse. It was all very reminiscent of an abusive father who expects his children to do as he says and think what he thinks, no questions allowed, ever, because he’s the boss. It really is another example of spiritual abuse being joined at the hip with the abuse of (claimed) authority.
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tbc and Julie Anne, (sorry about the length)
I wonder if the spiritual term of “Patriarch” and “Matriarch” is being given a bad rap and is being over-shadowed by the sin of secular Chauvinism and Feminism.
Some who profess (or have been endoctrinated) into believing an abusive interpretation of scriptures and may not have studied Eph. 5:22-25. If this is the case are their mind being clouded from “Truth” that is allowing the secular Ideology of Chauvinism and Feminism to invade our churches and has created a negative sterotype by ignoring the Biblical roles of the Patriarch and Matriarch? (which may be a major reason for abuse and divorce)
The Bible says in Ephesians 5:22-25 22) wives submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord 25) Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
Pretty clear:
Husbands and Wives, when we become one with our spouses, we are to be serving each other, not bullying each other. Which is what happens when Christians practice either secular Chauvinism or secular Feminism when one or the other ignore Eph. 5:22-25.
The biggest problem that I’m interpretting (besides ignoring Ephesians) is Men and Women are getting married when one or both spouses don’t truly “Love” each other. Otherwise we wouldn’t be seeing the abuse or divorce.
For Married couples in an abusive predicament they need to come to a realization where their hearts lay toward their spouse and then start being obediant in the word, if their is a chance to salvage the marriage.
If the abuse doesn’t stop and victim feels he/she has no way out, I have wondered if abuse is a form of Marriage abandonment and if so does it give the victim a spiritually acceptable way out of a Marriage. This is a topic that I’m sure, has been debated.
Rather than confusing the Biblical role of Patriarchs and Matriarchs with secular Chauvinism and Feminism, the focus should be on the catalyst of abuse and divorce and that is, if individual Husbands and Wives truly understand what Eph. 5:22-25 really means. By avoiding this simple principle it then becomes, a distraction of Biblical of the role of Patriarch and Matriarch.
Being either a Patriarch or Matriarch should be a good thing, in a Godly family.
Young couples need to be discouraged into matrimony if one or both do not truly “Love” each other. Marrying someone you “like” but love to date and be intimate with, is not a good reason to spend the rest of your life with and is a recipe for Abuse.
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Mark,
I know where you are coming from and it is noble. But, In the 1st Century few were in a position to marry for what we think of as “love”. It was usually arranged in both Judaism and the Greco Roman world so with that in mind, how would that audience in Ephesus have read it? Love your spouse? What a concept! :o) Now, define “love” in that context (1st Century keeping the codes in mind that women were chattel) and the entire authority concept withers away.
BTW: You left out Ephesians 5:21 which is an important part of the entire chiasm and goes back to being filled with the Holy Spirit and being children of the light. We are to submit to one another including the big cheeses who think they have authority. :o)
What is “secular” chauvinism?
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Voddie Baucham responded to someone regarding Phillips again on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/VoddieBaucham/posts/10151867129082550?comment_id=28728155&reply_comment_id=28730293&total_comments=3
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Tbc said, “A Mom — to follow your analogy through, the real problem is thieves, not banks nor safes. I have authority over my children. They are my wards. I could certainly abuse that authority and them by treating them terribly, forcing them to do awful things, and generally sinning against them and against God in the process. Of course you, ‘A Mom’ presumably have children and likewise have authority over them. You could also use your authority to treat them, train and correct them to do the right things, and generally do right by them in the sight of God. Is the problem that we both have authority or is the problem that I (in this example) would be abusing my authority?”
My response,
Authority (from google): the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience. Synonyms: power, command, control, charge, dominance, rule, sovereignty, supremacy
The more I discuss & think about this idea of husbands having authority/rule/control/dominance over their wives, the more my eyes are opened to how dark it is. Call it love & care but it is far from loving. It hurts women, children & men.
Tbc, the problem is you say you are against abuse, yet you hold onto authority=rule=control=dominance=enforced obedience of wives tightly. Then you say this framework isn’t the problem, it’s the bad apples. I say it’s the framework which allows, encourages, attracts bad apples. It’s a safe haven for them. We disagree, what’s new?
It’s sad when Christians say authority=enforced obedience=supremacy of husbands over wives is necessary in a marriage. It’s not. We’re talking about two grown adults. Spouses should be willing to learn from each other & teach each other. We’ve also heard the argument for authority in family & church because a business, military, government does it. To run a family or church like a corporation, the military, or dictatorship is not biblical. That is taking worldly structures & conforming the family & church to it.
You mentioned children, again to support male authority in a marriage. I again disagree with your view of children. I don’t see myself as an authoritarian=ruler=commander. I don’t see myself as a “warden”. It’s odd you describe your children as your wards. But I guess it’s consistent with the whole military/dictatorship thing. You scoff at government/social services but you don’t sound that different, actually. I view the responsibility of parent to child as loving teacher. Just as Jesus was while on earth. Jesus did not rule=control=dominate. Jesus taught=instructed.
On earth: Yes, I’m a mom. I also homeschool. I see children as a gift from God & they should be treated that way. Our responsibility is to raise future, capable, thinking adults who follow Jesus, IMO. There is no ownership. I caretake for my Lord. Children are to be treated with respect & dignity, not lorded over. We are equals in all other aspects except I have the responsibility to nurture, instruct, teach. I can’t enforce absolute obedience either (what parent really can?). I can issue consequences, which is quite a loving thing to do. If that teaching method is employed, then from an early age, children will learn for themselves cause & effect & why to pick right. That works quite well. IMO, we are to raise children with a desire to do right & please their parents (only when their parents’ instructions are right!). I’m sure my pov/framework/methods shock you, oh well. I am a loving teacher, not authoritarian. Big difference! One other BIG thing, I apologize, say I’m sorry & ask for forgiveness when I’ve done something wrong. It’s a two-way street in my house. That probably doubly shocks you!
In eternity: Children are brothers & sisters in Christ.
And guess what? Children teach other children. Learning & teaching is more dynamic than you might think. Does that mean one has authority over another? No. I am beginning to see a pattern in these groups where those who teach are designated the authority. In these camps teacher=authority. That is a very controlling false premise. The best, safest environment for learning & living (especially in church) is when authority is absent. Same with marriage.
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“tbc is reeling you guys in good. Just read what he thinks are typical domestic violence situations that are impossible to “suss” out. Just think of what that movement teaches on punishing children to get a clue. Remember, the name Doug Phillips is what brought them here to defend “authority”.”
Lydia, I 100% agree with this assessment.
Another red flag was when tbc said, “I would hate to be in a situation like that as an elder (I mean a situation where abuse is alleged) because it is very difficult to suss out exactly what to do.”
WHAT? No knight in shining armor? Let’s put ourselves in the shoes of an abused person for a few minutes. Is that what you want to hear & know? That your elder would “hate to be in a situation like this because it’s difficult”, having to step in and sort it out to… help you or your children, family member or friend with whatever abuse has or is happening? Re-read all his comments again. Do you think he, who also argues for authority, is your go-to man? No wonder abused don’t get the support they need. The message from their church “authorities” is clear.
And then he makes it clear he is reluctant to take it to legal authorities. It’s sort of for the church to figure out & decide. He says something about being to busy to form a game plan but would wait to figure it out when & if it happens.
So, it sounds like reluctance, but in the end, they are the ones to sort it out & decide what to do.
Does SGM actions sound so different from this stance? A huge, endless circle going to nowhere.
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Lydia,
That you for reminding me about Eph 5:21.
I recognize arranged Marriages existed throughout history and even today in America where Multi-Spouse culture in places like Utah and Arizona is practiced. (I have to admit I struggle with the notion of arranged marriages)
Secular Chauvinism and Feminism is a prejudiced belief in the superiority of ones own gender and combative devotion to self which includes rejecting the responsibility that God has for individual genders. (and in many cases rejecting God all together)
There may be some who profess the Gospel but embrace or practice a version of Chauvinism and Feminism within Churches. To the Christian to include themselves in these movements that quite frankly is human made and involve many athiest outside the church and openly reject God, is extremely risky.
Rather than fighting Spiritual Abuse and Social Injustice through Secular movements one should realize the Bible is the textbook that addresses the sin of Spiritual, Mental and Physical Abuse for which there is no justification.
When gender inequality is practiced or taught (which is abuse) within or outside Churches, rather than use terms like Patriarch, Matriarch, Chauvinism or Feminism be blunt and call it “Sin”.
(to a secular Chauvinist or Feminist sin may not be in their vocabulary)
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Lydia,
” Remember, the name Doug Phillips is what brought them here to defend “authority”.”
I thought the same thing. My sociopath meter is off the charts right now. This is the type of charm that reels people right into an abusive situation. And we keep asking how people fall for it.
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Well, with this response, they are complicit to any crimes and should be held responsible for failing to report (if failure to report is illegal). This is the kind of arrogance some pastors have – – they think they are competent to be judge/arbiter of people’s souls and lives, even determining whether or not they committed crimes. Unreal.
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“You scoff at government/social services but you don’t sound that different, actually.”
Exactly!!! Micromanagers who want authority over others whether it is their spiritual health or physical health. Of course they always know best for others. Right.
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Lydia,
You asked me a question about Greek or Platonic dualism, and no, I do not really have my mind around the concept. I would understand it to relate to the idea that the spiritual or immaterial is good, while the physical and material is evil. I understand that this is said to translate into an outlook where the material is so corrupt that no good can be associated with it. Any attempt for these physical bodies of ours to live apart from the evil that is associated with the material is doomed to failure. There is no point in trying. We might as well abandon ourselves to sin. I suppose that this maybe got translated into the concept of total depravity. Maybe it also explains the emphasis on imputed righteousness. Because there supposedly is no possibility of actual imparted righteousness, even for the redeemed, we must resort to the legal fiction of imputation.
Does any of this make any sense to me? No. Can I even fathom how such idiotic notions could have engrained themselves into the very fabric of “Christian” thought and life? No. I certainly have no intuitive grasp of how any of this makes any kind of sense.
Do I believe that “Christian” thought and life have been corrupted by Greek/Platonic dualism or its close kin, docetic gnosticism, and who knows what all else? Yes, absolutely. I just cannot conceive how.
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Mark, I am trying to follow you I really am.
“Secular Chauvinism and Feminism is a prejudiced belief in the superiority of ones own gender and combative devotion to self which includes rejecting the responsibility that God has for individual genders. (and in many cases rejecting God all together)”
Would you say there is a “spiritual gender”? Can I be Christlike even though He came as a male? Is there a pink and blue salvation?
There is nothing “spiritual” about gender roles. Gender is what it is. It is biological. Not spiritual. Gen 1 tells us both genders are made in His image.
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tbc and your comments re your example/understanding of domestic violence situations:
From stories of women who find themselves in what is termed as ‘Christian marriages’ where domestic abuse/violence and spiritual abuse are played out, topics such as who would be in charge in the marriage and how that would be enforced seemed to get lost in the adventure of courtship and marriage. The girl and the guy found a believer to share with, found that they liked similar things, and the natural consequence of their getting to know one another was that they felt love for one another and then got married—with the blessing of family and friends.
For many women, they were truly beguiled in the whole process. They may not have asked the right questions or understood the magnitude of the complex situation that they soon found themselves in. Some, even on their honeymoon found that their dearly beloved ‘changed’. Suddenly, there was no room for mutual sharing about issues, but there was one way: My way or the highway! But instead of the highway, since Christians aren’t supposed to get divorced, it became: My way or I’ll use force to convince you. Scripture verses were brought up and waved like flags to convince the wife–who might dare to question that he was now in charge—had the authority–from now on and that was that!
Just talk to those who minister to women who have had to ‘escape’ from their marriage of bondage and harm to a place of safety.
The root issues to violence and its cover-up are often based on a faulty view of males and females and their place in society. Therefore: What people believe about the roles of males and females in society is vital. What Christians believe about the place of women and men, in the church and in the home, is crucial! What people believe directs how they will actually live.
Entrenched belief systems are hard to dismantle.
When a culture puts greater value on males, as being:
Central, Superior, and Deserving,
the converse is that females are of lesser value in that society:
Peripheral, Inferior, and Servants.
In contexts where patriarchy is valued, women and children can be at risk. Has there been a church tradition that has been firmly in place for far too long that needs to be re-examined and then set right? The answer to this question remains with each of us.
Change Begins When Faulty Belief Systems Are Changed!
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I had a music lesson to run my kiddo to earlier. I’m disappointed tbc decided to bow out, but not surprised. I hope he does read my response, but not holding my breathe that if he did he’d learn anything from it. After all, I am a woman. 😉
BTW, got an electric pressure cooker last week & it is so awesome. We buy pigs & cows raised & butchered locally. Pork carnitas speedy quick. Dried beans ready to eat as a veggie meal in 45mins, no soaking! So good, yum! If anyone has any pressure cooker recipes, I’m interested. My aunt in Maine would make the best baked beans (kidney?) in the world with salt pork (not Boston baked beans) in a PC. Wish I had her recipe. Anyway, highly recommend the Instant Pot to all men & women! 🙂
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” I suppose that this maybe got translated into the concept of total depravity. ”
Gary, I did not communicate it well. In Plato’s construct even though all material world is evil and only spiritual good, there are a few brave, intelligent males the gods equipped to rule over the ignorant weak masses. Patriarchy adopted that construct even after redemption and slapped a fish on it. Kings, popes, princes, pastors, etc.
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“In Plato’s construct even though all material world is evil and only spiritual good, there are a few brave, intelligent males the gods equipped to rule over the ignorant weak masses.”
So, “pastors” now arrogate to themselves the status and prerogatives of philosopher kings?
If I’m sounding uninformed here, it’s because I am.
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I think Paul Dohse would say that you got it. That sounds like a statement he would make 🙂
Paul, what say you?
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“This is the type of charm that reels people right into an abusive situation. And we keep asking how people fall for it.”
Is it because we love unity and agreement. Is it because we want to be liked? Even if it costs us the truth in some cases. Most people are conflict adverse. But conflict is where we learn. Grow. Note the dichotomy they use. If we are not in agreement with them we are automatically pegged as feminists…albeit subtly. Feminism is a sin. Some have tried to define it very vaguely. However, I have met way too many mutualists in the last 10 years that would qualify for sainthood if I were Catholic. :o)
And if you notice it is all about “doctrine” and very little about behavior or the “fruit of salvation/sanctification”. The one another’s. They try hard to put that in their construct by claiming that there are nice authoritarians. But we all know how that works. Power corrupts most people over time even if in small ways. So why enable sin with a false construct?
Conflict is not allowed WITHIN their construct unless generated by the authority. They must go outside. Coming here to defend Patriarchy is as much for them as it is for us.
Let us work hard to help set people free to abide in Christ. Not man. I have seen way too many of the wounded. I mean, look at the children who died because of their parents following the Pearls authoritarian method. Look at the young girls kept in household prison from maturing into intelligent women who might have had a cure for cancer if allowed to pursue their gifts. We will never know. So much wasted and all on some who desire authority over others.
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Lydia,
We are on the same page.
(as I endured spiritual abuse and deception from a Pastor, who also looked down on the role of a woman and bullied those women who dare question his Methodology, I’m sure what else to call it, but sin.)
In Eph. 5:21-25 defines the gender role of Hubands and Wives.
Abuse occurs when one, or both are in difiance of God’s word and it is sin. I guess I’m trying to simply identifying “sin” regardless of gender (or movements) which in some respect you already explained to me.
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“So, “pastors” now arrogate to themselves the status and prerogatives of philosopher kings?”
Nailed it.
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“In Eph. 5:21-25 defines the gender role of Hubands and Wives.”
Not sure what you mean by this. How do you see “gender roles” there in a 21st century context? Do you think there are women who want their husbands to “respect” them? An unheard of thought in the 1st Century.
Any women here who would like for their husbands to “respect” them?
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For a passing reflection and/or gentle chortle:
“You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you odd.” F. O’Connor
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Gary W (and everyone for that matter),
Go to paulspassingthoughts.com. There are two links on the right labeled tanc. One link for the 2013 tanc conference & one link for the 2012 tanc conference.
These are EXCELLENT video resources. If you have time, listen to them. They are SO good. Incredibly good.
I think Lydia would agree.
John Immel, spiritualtyranny.com, has a link on his blog to John Calvin’s Christian Institutes free online. You don’t have to buy Calvin’s massive theology “book”. That’s where I got the “from the horse’s mouth” quote from Calvin on: 1. infants being saved thru parent’s baptizing them = infant (paedo) baptism, & 2. infants being “corrupted from the womb” & 3. Jewish infants being saved by circumcision. Thanks again, Ric. You prodded me into looking it up. 🙂
All Calvinists should read Calvin’s Christian Institutes to learn who he really was, what he wrote, believed & practiced. Much bizarre stuff, but don’t take my word on it. Check it out for yourself.
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I totally agree.
This is simplistic but Augustine being the prolific writer in Latin brought in the Greek philosophy construct even though he was not a reader of Greek. He was schooled in Mani. Calvin put it into a systematic theology. It is where the determinist god construct comes from. Including guilt for Adams sin.
Before then, “Christian leaders” would be the ones being fed to the lions first. Then they became the lions.
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“You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you odd.” F. O’Connor
Love it.
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A Mom,
Thanks for suggesting the TANC materials. I’m actually more into reading than watching/listening to videos, and I have read some of Paul’s blog. But we shall see.
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So, from the horse’s mouth, John Calvin:
Book 2nd, chapter 1: “The orthodoxy, therefore, and more especially Augustine, laboured to show, that we are not corrupted by acquired wickedness, but bring an innate corruption from the very womb”
Wicked vipers in diapers, totally depraved theology, delivered straight from St. Augustine through Calvin to us. Calvin loved Saint Augustine, Saint of the Catholic Church, & his works/labors/teachings. He loved Saint Augustine’s theology & ideas. Reformation? These pastors hold tight to their authority as priestly mediators between us & Jesus, minus the smoke & robes.
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I came across this thread and found the discussion too amusing to pass up—fascinating stuff—keep it coming!
“All Calvinists should read Calvin’s Christian Institutes to learn who he really was, what he wrote, believed & practiced. Much bizarre stuff, but don’t take my word on it. Check it out for yourself.”
Yes—thank you, thank you, thank you! I find it particularly disturbing to witness Calvinists (who typically pride themselves on adhering to absolute truth) turn a blind eye to the fact that their patriarch was complicit in the persecution—not only of Michael Servetus (for some reason, his case is one of the few that have been widely publicized by scholars…)—but of Christians who differed with him on “non-essentials” or accused him of abusing power (look up Sebastian Castellio…).
Why do Calvinists identify as “Calvinists” anyway? Why not “Augustinians”? Not quite “reformed” enough, perhaps…?
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Lydia,
In Eph. 5:22 is clear (at least to me) we are to respect our wives.
Not sure why you are referring to the 1st century.
Regardless of gender or stereotype is it “Sin” to mentally, physically and spiritually abuse one another, no matter what century we live in.
I think this is what we are truly talking about.
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I would also recommend Paulspassingthoughts. – Talk about a wealth of info. concerning Platonic propaganda infiltration into our churches today. Good stuff!
I will have to say concerning gender roles- as soon as my husband and I left the churches that put emphasis on these and other issues we felt free in our relationship with each other. We don’t even think about who is over the other one; we don’t have time. We recognize now the gifts each of us have and use them accordingly. What these guys do is waste time and influence others to do the same. Very immature in my mind (I was there at one point). If we can’t trust in the Holy Spirit and our abilities to do what the Bible says then we are just simpletons and babies on milk. God asks us to move forward and eat meat.
How in the world are we going to be effective to the unbelieving world if we continue to be this ridiculous? Yes, ridiculous and this is how they see us.
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I’m too lazy to use my search feature, but look what one of you did: http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-phallocentrism
You got Little Mary Sunshine writing a post about phallocentrism – and she even blamed us over here (linking and mentioning us). For the life of me, I cannot figure out the audience of that blog.
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“In Plato’s construct even though all material world is evil and only spiritual good, there are a few brave, intelligent males the gods equipped to rule over the ignorant weak masses.”
Ironically, patriarchal doctrine is also anti-platonic in several respects—that is its chief weakness. At its core, patriarchal marriage is a material contract, a means of biologically “making disciples” through a sexual union—the “spirit” has little to do with the matter. Needless to say, this ideal is particularly difficult to uphold if one is an asexual believer or simply wishes to follow Paul’s example and remain a celibate individual. Patriarchal anti-Platonism also stands at odds with Christ’s concept of a spiritual family in Mark 3:35: “For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
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JA,
I’m so sorry I clicked on that link. That was just vile, filthy, debauched . . .
Little miss SSM got some issues. Whatever she gets get kinks on, it ain’t Christian.
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Ok JA
What is the deal with LittleMarySunshines photos? I found that very distasteful and definitely a little disturbing.
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I have never seen someone get that “high” off of male dominance.
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I know. It’s a odd. I cannot figure it out. So I was called the f word (feminist) and challenged about the validity of abuse. SSM was careful to tell a pastor she couldn’t debate with him because she didn’t want to presume to be in biblical authority over him as a woman. And then those images. I’m thoroughly confused as to what the agenda is there.
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I can see why she has a wide male audience.
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That woman is sick in the head. And blows any notion of Patriarchy being even remotely Christian right out of the water!
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Julie Anne,
Those who referred you as a feminist are abusive and sinful.
What they are doing is diverting the sin of chauvinism while hiding behind the Bible to authenticate their abusive interpretation of scripture.
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Interesting…were it not for the earlier posts on this thread, I would have (generously) thought this SSM character was crafting a caricature of complementarian doctrine…I guess this is the real deal…saddened, but not surprised.
“…this is played out in both the natural world around us and in Natural Law itself. There is no reason to bang your head against reality and struggle against your own deepest desire, ladies.”
“Natural Law”…? Really…?
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Mark, I frankly don’t care what people want to call me. What ticks me off was the ongoing dismissal of abuse by certain commenters, like I had to prove that there is a genuine problem. Instead it was twisted around to manipulative women trying to usurp men’s position of authority.
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Here’s banging on some cage bars, since the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities is up again in the Senate. The crowd we’re talking about spends a lot of time lying about this document. It’s hard to find an oppressed group that they are not led to stand against on some pretext or other. I wrote this analysis last year:
The complete text of the Convention is at:
http://www.un.org/disabilities/convention/conventionfull.shtml
I think it’s clear that the stated claim is baseless. The requirement to act in the best interest of the child is recognized in family courts all over the United States today, and there is no reason to think any US court will take this phrase out of context in the treaty and toss aside all US precedent in order to construe it as suggested here.
In fact, the Convention itself clearly presumes the primacy of the family, beginning with paragraph x of the preamble. Article 18(2) states that “Children with disabilities shall be registered immediately after birth and shall have the right from birth to a name, the right to acquire a nationality and, as far as possible, the right to know and be cared for by their parents.” That’s “possible,” not “appropriate” or such other weasel word.
Article 22(1) says, “No person with disabilities, regardless of place of residence or living arrangements, shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy, family, home or correspondence or other types of communication or to unlawful attacks on his or her honour and reputation. Persons with disabilities have the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.”
Article 23, especially paragraphs 3 and 4, give considerable protection to the natural family, and in particular, abuses by CPS.
It’s important to note that, if ratified by the Senate, the Convention would become the supreme law of the land as prescribed by the Constitution, Article VI. It would therefore be a powerful tool to put to an end the behavior of such as the the Judge Rotenberg Center, and it would probably amount to a pretty strong federal law against seclusion and restraint on the basis of disability. Article 24 especially appears to at least weaken the use of the Rowley standard to license school districts to do as little as they can get away with, as well as strengthening the protections of Section 504 and the ADA. I’m working a case right now where it would make a substantial difference.
To keep the districts and others of like mind from construing the Convention to rip off those with disabilities, Article 4(4) states, “Nothing in the present Convention shall affect any provisions which are more conducive to the realization of the rights of persons with disabilities and which may be contained in the law of a State Party or international law in force for that State. There shall be no restriction upon or derogation from any of the human rights and fundamental freedoms recognized or existing in any State Party to the present Convention pursuant to law, conventions, regulation or custom on the pretext that the present Convention does not recognize such rights or freedoms or that it recognizes them to a lesser extent.”
Where this group is coming from is made crystal clear by their urging us to “Call your senators and urge them to oppose ratification of Treaty 112-7, the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Tell them American law is sufficient to protect these rights, and we do not need to subject ourselves to international rule.”
I can’t imagine that anyone in this group will agree that “American law is sufficient to protect these rights.” We all know that anyone asserting that American law adequately protects the rights of people with disabilities, and especially students, is either lying or not paying attention – especially to those traumatized, beaten up, or killed every day in American schools with little or no protection.
Of course, the idea that UN bureaucrats will impose their interpretation of the Convention in the United States is ridiculous. According to Article VI, the Convention if ratified will be like any other treaty, the same “supreme law of the land” as any other federal law – and everything enumerated in Article VI is interpreted by the federal courts of the United States, not by United Nations bureaucrats. When it comes to anything that happens in the United States, when has anyone listened to them? Have UN bureaucrats been able to get anyone to stop the Judge Rotenberg Center from torturing kids? They’ve been trying.
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Mark, well stated!
“What they are doing is diverting the sin of chauvinism while hiding behind the Bible to authenticate their abusive interpretation of scripture.”
“We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice, we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself.”
~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Hi Sensible,
You said, “…Christ’s concept of a spiritual family in Mark 3:35: “For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.””
Wonderful. Love it. No over or under authority. Jesus’ focus? Doing right, obeying God. Now shouldn’t we be focused on teaching that to our kids instead?
I haven’t checked, but was that verse included in the ESV? 😉
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Julie Anne,
When my wife blurted out was 1 John 1:9 “if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse from all unrighteousness”
That was the only contribution she made at the end of a study when the Pastor inquired for questions or comments, of obediently enduring his sin centered Wednesday Night Bible Study. (also carried over on Sunday Morning and Sunday Evening services as well)
You can only take my word that my wife has a gentle spirit. It was clear that night in our Pastor’s eye she wasn’t a Calvinist. The wrath and shunning she endured from 3 women in our church after he chewed me and her out, while with-holding his Doctrine from us was more than she could take.
Maybe she (we) needed a little more of your strength of being able to identify sin which many mistakenly interpret this kind of strength, as being a feminist.
I discover Paul Dohse blog about 2 years ago in which he had a schematics of how these guys operate had us get through this deceptive ordeal.
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There’s plenty of authority in the Bible, but it’s relational, not hierarchical. people who think in terms of command and control can’ possible get it right, because they really don’t understand the nature of what they’re discussing. If you’re trying to figure out how to work in stone, you’ll never get it right if you think it works the same as wood.
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Hi “A Mom,”
I believe the version I used is from the ESV…my version choice was purely a “google coincidence” but…come to think of it…I am glad I used that version–no Calvinists can question it 😉
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http://www.abpnews.com/news/item/8695-i-had-no-choice-but-write-this-column#.UniAdBCP-1f
I provide this humorous link in honor of DP. Enjoy!
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Julie Anne –
I went over to SSM’s site to see what her articles are about. I was not impressed and couldn’t really figure it out . . . don’t think it’s worth the time.
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Calvin ought not to be misrepresented any more than anyone else. If people are wrong, it’s enough to play them straight. When it was written, “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, the neighbor in mind is the one that you don’t like, maybe with good reason. The ones we like, we do not need this word.
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A Mom,
Lol!
“I — Irresistible Grace. God brings the elect to salvation through an internal call which they are powerless to resist. Real Calvinists are confused by buffets and have trouble with multiple-choice questions.”
Oh, my goodness. Between you and Julie Anne I’m in trouble over here. (A little side effect from multiple births.)
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Gary W. Glad you’ve had time to read some of Paul’s posts. There’s a lot of info. there. As for the videos, I really enjoyed listening to them while going about my daily tasks. The videos go deep into history & philosophy & religion. John Immel’s videos are quite good. So are Susan’s videos (Paul’s wife). They gave me a high-level historical view on some things, & helped me see how current trends & teaching have shape much of today’s current thinking. I have learned so much in such a short period. And it has brought me great happiness. I’ve changed my thinking on some things I thought were “biblical”. Praise the Lord. One, for instance, YEC (thanks JA & Hannah), of which I was overly confident on.
JA is right. There is a lot of revisionist misinformation put out there by religious fanatics who’s mission is a church-state theocracy.
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Mark,
“You can only take my word that my wife has a gentle spirit. It was clear that night in our Pastor’s eye she wasn’t a Calvinist. The wrath and shunning she endured from 3 women in our church after he chewed me and her out, while with-holding his Doctrine from us was more than she could take.
Maybe she (we) needed a little more of your strength of being able to identify sin which many mistakenly interpret this kind of strength, as being a feminist.”
That is awful you and your wife ever had to endure that.
I discovered Julie Anne’s blog while wading through the bog of my own spiritual abuse experience. It’s so freeing to find other people who can relate to what you’ve been through. You know that you are not alone, and that you’re NOT the crazy one.
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BTDT, I love to laugh! The downside is I, too, have that annoying side effect!
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BeenThere.
Thanks, It’s hard to let go of the pain. .
The thing I’m reminded is there is an extreme lack of Love within Churches and in Marriages, which I believe is a major cause of Strife, Abuse and Stereotyping.
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Peter, Can you explain how Calvin has been misrepresented?
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Theocracy is one of those words that people use without thinking. It means government by God.
But what these people mean is government by their doctrines about God – and somehow they wind up being the administrators. It’s government by themselves, as human as any other, by means of a bogus self-serving doctrine like any other ideology of this world.
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to Peter Attwood,
Pete your 9:15 and 9:36 post seems to be somewhat cryptic. I enjoy crossword puzzles as long as the answers have words that are spelled correctly.
I’m not quite getting what you are saying. Is it some kind of Chinese proverb?
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I’m very sad that you went through what you did, but very glad that you stumbled across the blog . . . . and that we had the opportunity to meet IRL last summer. So fun!
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Peter, I have no doubt you are more learned & smarter than I am. Which may be why you seem in some ways like a dichotomy to me.
Anyway, what you said about theocracy reminded me of the Puritans. Just sayin.
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Total depravity doesn’t mean how this guy characterizes it. It means that everyone is altogether broken and that nothing in ourselves works right, as Paul discussed for instance in Romans 7, so that nothing good can arise from ourselves but only from above. James 4 expresses the same thought.
An obvious distortion found in Clavinism, but really all over the Western church especially, is that this condition is blamed on sin, with the idea being that if we weren’t in sin we would function just fine. But Jesus said of himself that our helplessness is not a bug but a feature in that he himself could only do what his father was doing. It’s not sin that makes us incapable of doing good on our own. It’s God’s design to make us rely on him for everything and glorify him in everything we do. Sin originates in our quest for independence, the quest to make God unnecessary. It’s in Genesis 3.
Unconditional election also does not mean what he says. It means as Paul explained in Romans 11 that we are chosen in him before the foundation of the world, before we do anything good or bad. It’s also true that God sets before us life and death, good and evil, and it matters what we choose. But our choice isn’t sovereign. I’m still working on this paradox, but among other things in his light we see light, so that our choices wholly depend on God revealing them to us and wising us up.
A lot more can be said, but that will do for now.
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This is weird. I don’t see any 9:15 or 9:36 of Peter’s. Did the time zone switcheroo mess things up?
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I seem to owe an answer on my 9:15 post.
Authoritarian people like having somebody on top giving orders. But everyone has authority, which is required to carry out our responsibilities, so that all rebellion against legitimate authority is an attack on the right even to live. See how it feels the next time someone resists you when you wnat to exercise legitimate authority so you can do your job.
It never runs one way. Mom has the authority to tell twosie to sit in his car seat. But twosie has the authority to be fed and otherwise served.
God himself is over all, but he’s been serving his creation since Genesis 1. The spiritual bullies would get authority right if they knew that the place of submission is the place that God himself prefers. Instead of telling people to submit, they would be elbowing their way down there themselves.
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Mom, I believe you thought of the Puritans for a reason. That Americans identify their domination of the world with light purity, and good news for the robbed and subjugated comes straight from there. No problem recognizing that problem in the Vision Forum crowd, too, I trust.
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“But Jesus said of himself that our helplessness is not a bug but a feature in that he himself could only do what his father was doing.”
Sounds like Eternal Submission of the Son doctrine. God is 3 separate persons in a hierarchy doctrine. Argo, I’m understanding your heightened sense of concern over this.
“It’s not sin that makes us incapable of doing good on our own. It’s God’s design to make us rely on him for everything and glorify him in everything we do.”
Sounds like God is the author of sin doctrine. If God makes people rely on him & make people glorify him, wouldn’t ALL be doing just that? Will your response be that God is glorified by making people go to hell? In your construct people=robots.
“Total depravity doesn’t mean how this guy characterizes it. It means that everyone is altogether broken and that nothing in ourselves works right…”
Well, even though I have an annoying side-effect when I laugh too hard… trust me, there are many things working right in my body & mind. Speak for yourself.
I was right, you are a dichotomy, a self-professed broken one (but I don’t buy into that doctrine). You don’t either or you wouldn’t be so concerned about what people inflict upon each other while living on this earth. They can’t help it, nothing in themselves works right, right?
I could say more, but that will do for now. 🙂
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Mom, your response doesn’t even seem coherent to me.
Since Jesus said he could do nothing of himself, and he also said that apart from him we can do nothing, it should be evident that if we have learned to be like him, then we will also find that we can do nothing of ourselves. That doesn’t have anything to do with being robots. Actually, even in this present life, I find that I can do nothing without air to breathe, but this dependency doesn’t make me a robot. You want a really independent being, a fire hydrant will do better than we can every time.
It’s true that we can’t help doing evil some way if we want to live independently of God – Jesus made it clear that this is true of himself – but that doesn’t mean we can’t help it. It just means we can’t in the end help it without God.
Jesus wouldn’t have said that we can do nothing of ourselves if we didn’t need to be taught it, so that you don’t believe it is not terribly shocking. After spending a couple of years with him, his disciples had a lot to learn about it too.
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Speaking of Vision Forum, Peter. Are you one of DP’s friends?
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Never heard of him before wandering in here, but in my experience people like him don’t like people like me.
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“but in my experience people like him don’t like people like me.”
Peter, Why is that? Your doctrine is very similar, if not the same.
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It’s radically different, as I’ve already explained, but I’m going to bed.
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