Calvary Chapel Franchise, Christian Marriage, Clergy Sex Abuse, Divorce, Going Back to Church Again, Marriage, Marriages Damaged-Destroyed by Sp. Ab., Spiritual Abuse, The Gospel Coalition, Tullian Tchividjian

Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A Broken Church

Julie Anne

Tullian Tchividjian, Bob Coy, Church Leaders Response, Clergy Sex Abuse, Sexual Infidelity, Spiritual Abuse, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale

 

***

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:11-15

***

 

If you were a church leader, and your pastor was caught in sexual sin, how would you handle it? I was trying to think about this as it relates to the Tullian Tchividjian scandal.

Some church leaders may not be thinking clearly when it is discovered that their pastor has had a sexual relationship outside of marriage with another woman (congregant or otherwise). Now, perhaps their initial thoughts are that if the congregation finds out, they won’t be able to handle it, it’s too messy, and it will be a disruption. These justifications are valid. Maybe their thinking is that if those very few people who know about it can “take care of it,” then the church can move on as normal and everything will be fine. That seems legit  So maybe their original intent of protecting the church body was initially a good one. But it doesn’t usually end well.

Another way leaders sometimes handle sexual sin is by addressing only some of the sexual sins. They minimize the extent of it, again, so as to not let it appear too messy.  They are still covering up sin, and this is obviously not full disclosure. When congregants find out that it was far more than leaders disclose, this is problematic.

A comment came in last night from someone who is not the “other woman” or the wife of the pastor, or close friends of anyone involved. This comment came from a congregant. I suspect that this commenter was probably not very close with her pastor, but has been a regular attender, trusting her pastor(s) and church leaders to live according to Biblical qualifications of elders (1 Tim), and to appropriately shepherd the flock. That seems reasonable, right?

But what we will read below is how far reaching and destructive it is when, first, a pastor has a sexual relationship outside his marriage, and second, when church leaders fail to handle the sin appropriately.

When church leaders pay more attention to caring, covering up, and protecting their wayward pastor than the hurting sheep, the Body of Christ is harmed, sometimes spiritually and emotionally shattered. Is this what the Bible alludes to when the church becomes a sheep with no shepherd?

On a slightly different note, as I read comments from congregants about their pastors’ sexual sins, sometimes I read that a sinful and sexual relationship between a pastor and another woman is between them and God. This is not true.

The sexual sin of a pastor extends far beyond the bedroom and into the House of God.

It rocks people’s faith. It can makes people not trust any church leader. Some will quit church entirely. I hope Debbie’s story below will help to illustrate a common response from congregants whose pastors have failed morally.

I want to thank Debbie * for risking to share her personal story with us, especially after her story was not well received elsewhere.  ~ja

***

 

Debbie’s Personal Story: Betrayed and Wounded

Gonna take a chance and post this here. First time poster. Former Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church (CRPC) member. I was there when Tullian Tchividjian (TT) came in 2009. As a voting member, I took the word of our Pulpit Nominating Committee and voted to bring TT and merge his church with CRPC.

It didn’t take long for me to see something was wrong with TT. His sermons seemed, off, somehow. He had a bold yet somewhat (to me) arrogant presence in the pulpit. And then the trouble really began.

He disbanded CRPC’s contemporary worship team and installed his team from New City (his former church). Note that he did not bring the two together; he “fired” Coral Ridge’s group.

He made several other hurtful decisions and took some drastic actions. Just a few months into his tenure, many people were questioning the wisdom of bringing him in. We followed procedure to recall him. The voting process was NOT a secret ballot; I signed my name to the ballot when I cast it. I questioned this and was told, “well, that’s how we’re doing it.” I voted to recall him. By this time, the church was split. My dear, close friends of many years were split, some agreed with me and some sided with Tullian. It was a terrible, wrenching, hurtful time. After the vote, the recriminations began. They knew who had voted to oust him, and they proceeded with ruthless precision to cull the dissenters. I could give details of Tullian’s destruction, but I’ll withhold.

I left the church and after a year or two of not attending anywhere, ended up at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. Some time after I arrived, then-pastor Bob Coy was caught with his pants down and resigned. Another shocker. Initially the church was hush hush, then came clean. Bob left without any direct apology to the congregation. He left. We were told to pray for him. The church elders made a “Coy Family Care Plan” to support Bob. Later he divorced his wife.

So here I have experienced two devastating spiritual and moral betrayals by pastors. (Tullian’s brother, Stephan, is a pastor at Calvary Fort Lauderdale).

Tullian Tchividjian, Bob Coy, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, CRPC, sexual sins, clergy sex abuseThe Lord had me remain at Calvary, although I followed Tullian’s “career” from afar. I saw his falling out with The Gospel Coalition, and felt like I could see his spiritual arrogance and others could not. I was confused by this, as it seemed so obvious to me. His defenders seemed to indulge in a blind sort of hero worship. I felt angry but also somewhat vindicated as TT was showing his true colors.

Then came news of Tullian’s adultery. Like Bob Coy, he resigned and left. I was disgusted and angry. I hated how he threw his wife under the bus in an effort to justify his sin. I felt like yelling, “I WARNED YOU. He doesn’t care about anybody but himself. Why can’t you see how he refuses to accept correction?”

I shared on another blog about TT and was read the riot act. I was interrogated as to how I could dare say this man’s public statement didn’t show true repentance! I was told that his sin didn’t hurt anybody but himself and his family. I was shocked. I said, “He is a PASTOR!” I felt like I had to defend myself against this Christian blog by explaining how heinous it was for a minister of Christ to commit adultery. I’m still smarting over it. I actually had to lay it out for this guy how devastating this was for the congregation and for the Name of Christ. Unbelievable.

Now come the latest revelations regarding Tullian. I am angry and grieved all over again.

Tonight, a friend and I began looking for another church. It was Palm Sunday, and unbeknownst to us, the one we went to had a concert. It was very good, focusing on the seven last words of Christ. They talked about the sufferings of the cross and what Jesus did for sinners. I was moved to contemplate my Savior’s sacrifice for me and I felt humble gratitude. It was great to go to church and hear the Name of Jesus exalted in word and hymnody.

I am deeply angry at Bob and Tullian. They wrecked scores of lives and got off scot-free. People did not listen when I warned about Tullian, and others mocked me when I opined that he was unrepentant. I feel betrayed and wounded. I’m beginning to think that I was a victim of spiritual abuse. Why else would all of these feelings be coming out? I am taking a chance that this is a safe place. It seems like I needed to get a lot off my chest. Thanks for letting me write this; I hope this was the appropriate place to do it.

 

*Debbie’s name has been changed for privacy

photo credit: I believe this flower pot has fallen from a great height via photopin (license)

252 thoughts on “Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A Broken Church”

  1. Thank you for sharing, Debbie. I am sorrowful that so many people have been affected by this. I will say that you are wrong about one thing—Coy and Tvhividjian did not get off scot-free. They have to answer to God for their abuse. As Julie pointed out above, these guys are proven to be “hired hands” and not true pastors. May you find a place of rest and relief in this new church family.

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  3. Christianity Today has a new article up now: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/march/tullian-tchividjian-confesses-second-affair-coral-ridge.html

    This shows systemic abuse – – how church leaders defended or didn’t put their friend through the normal process. They relied on previous “trust,” which in fact was a lie. To be a real friend, you must dig deeper than your heart wants you to dig. These are such serious issues.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. We went to a certain Baptist church for several yrs. Things I said in private to the young pastor became fodder for his sermon the next Sunday. Didn’t like that one bit. During the winter holiday season, he was forced out being the pastor of the church by the board of elders due to him fathering a child out of wedlock. My daughter was a young teenager at the time. She said the pastor like to give the teen girls side hugs with his hand in a strategic place. She didn’t like it and stayed away from him at the time, but never told me why till later. I worked in the church nursery a lot on Sundays, and began to realize before the pastor resigned that his young wife who had 2 children, one being a baby, couldn’t seem to like being in the church services anymore. She was always thinking of reasons to come check out the baby or just help out. In hind sight I knew why. She couldn’t stand to sit in the service listening to her husband preach all the while knowing he committed adultery. They divorced and I heard she remarried a nice guy. Don’t know what happened to him except he is not in the ministry to my knowledge. It was hard on the church. I didn’t know things were going on because I deliberately didn’t want to know anything about church politics or what was really going on in the church. I had been burned one to many times.

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  5. Debbie

    Thank you for your story.

    I understand, and hurt for you, when you write…
    “I am deeply angry at Bob and Tullian. They wrecked scores of lives and got off scot-free. People did not listen when I warned about Tullian, and others mocked me when I opined that he was unrepentant.”

    I have had a few run-ins with pastors who had this predatory power.
    I have warned them and others, and I have been mocked.
    Only to see scores, and scores, of lives wrecked.
    And I have cried, and cried, a lot. 😦

    It seems to take a few run-ins with these predatory pastors…
    Before you understand that trusting these guys, pastors…
    Is futile. You’re their friend as long as you agree…

    But, challenge, question, their power, their theology, their character…

    And you become the enemy… 😦

    Remind them Jesus, humbled Himself…
    Made Himself of NO reputation…
    Took on the form a “Servant.”

    And you become the enemy… 😦

    The Benefit of all the pain… It drives you to Jesus…

    I NO longer trust Mere Fallible Humans with the “Title” pastor…
    They have taken a “Title” that does NOT exist in the Bible…
    For one of His Disciples…

    And, I continue to warn…

    The only “ONE” in the Bible with the “Title” Shepherd – Is….

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Liked by 2 people

  6. My mother didn’t go to church for several years because 2 of her pastors committed adultery. She had been the victim of adultery and the knowledge of the man preaching God’s word did the same thing to his wife and children was heart breaking. She stopped attending church for many years because of it. Finally she went back to church, but never did let down her guard. It was so sad to see her feel so vulnerable in church all those years. What those pastors do not only hurts their wife and children, it wounds so many. There is no reason for them to be put back into ministry every. Yes, they can be forgiven and restored, but not as a pastor/elder. There are so many ways to serve the Lord and declare God’s word outside of being pastor/elder in a church.

    Liked by 5 people

  7. Anita

    Yes…

    “There is no reason for them to be put back into ministry ever. Yes, they can be forgiven and restored, but not as a pastor/elder.”

    Liked by 1 person

  8. “There is no reason for them to be put back into ministry every. ”

    I completely agree, Anita. I work in the medical field and if you abuse a patient, or take money from them, or sleep with them, or a host of other bad things you can have your license revoked. And then you can never do that job again. You have to find a new job.

    It should be that way with ministers. Find a new job. If you really are repentant and turn your life around etc..etc…you can always give a testimonial a few years down the road. There is no reason for you to pastor a church, though.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Read the preview of the CT article our hostess linked, and it strikes me that at least two elders knew of the allegations and did bupkus. Add that to the obvious signs of midlife crisis–chiseled physique with short sleeve shirts and an abundance of new tats–and I’ve got to ask what it takes before people take action.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. “I will say that you are wrong about one thing—Coy and Tvhividjian did not get off scot-free. They have to answer to God for their abuse.”

    Ah, but if they just confess this sin and repent, then they’ll enjoy the same clean slate and heaven guaranteed to everyone else. And they will have gotten off scot-free.

    Kind of makes you question the fairness of the whole thing, doesn’t it?

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  12. “The Lord had me remain at Calvary, although I followed Tullian’s “career” from afar. I saw his falling out with The Gospel Coalition, and felt like I could see his spiritual arrogance and others could not. I was confused by this, as it seemed so obvious to me. His defenders seemed to indulge in a blind sort of hero worship. I felt angry but also somewhat vindicated as TT was showing his true colors.”

    I think sure some of TT’s antinomianism figured in to that, but I thought the icing on the cake with that one was when he lambasted the coverup of Mahaney, and TGC couldn’t take that kind of insubordination anymore. In that case he was right, but then he kinda walked it back, sadly.

    It would seem that is about the only thing he’s done right in a long time, and still he flinched and backed off it when push came to shove.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Pingback: Church Knew of Preacher’s Affairs, Advised Him To Keep It Quiet – Christian Pundit

  14. Outsidelookingin, yes mercy is not fair. I would pray for mercy for all sinners, TT included. But that doesn’t mean he should be in any way a public minister teaching churches. He needs to get into some inglorious, thankless job to wean himself off of the need for approval and admiration, and force himself to work with ordinary people one on one doing menial work or something. No one is saying he can’t share the gospel with people, but clearly he lacks the ability to relate to people in a respectful way, and instead uses them. He needs to be doing something that he feels is meaningless and find meaning in it without a spotlight, and with some strong accountability like the rest of us have to deal with. Those kinds of day to day service jobs have a funny way of breaking down our pride.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. JulieAnne – that story from Steve Brown makes me want to vomit. And all the fawning comments from his supporters doubly so! I just added my rebuke. I’m sure I will get a bunch of whiny shaming “you pharisee” comments in response. Whatev!

    Liked by 1 person

  17. Julie Anne wrote~

    “Two elders + Steve Brown knew. Here is Brown’s statement”

    The following part of his statement from JA’s link stood out to me:

    “If you ever need to tell someone safe about your sins, I’m the guy. I don’t talk in my sleep, never tell others, and will go to my grave with more secrets people have told me than you would believe. The church really isn’t a very safe place. I wish it was, but it isn’t. So most of us hide the reality of who we are, what we’ve done, and the shame we feel. I wanted people (including pastors) to have at least one place where they could feel safe and could deal with their sin and shame. I was that for Tullian.”

    Why can’t Jesus be the “someone safe” and the “one place” where people feel safe to deal with their sin and shame? Why should it be a person?

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Does anyone know if Chris Rosebrough, of Pirate Christian Radio, is still stubbornly defending Tullian Tchividjian at this time?

    It’s interesting and sad how some Christians will defend certain other Christians in the midst of controversy and scream at the rest of us to give the fallen grace and so on.

    However, you better believe if it were not Tchividjian but Joel Osteen or some other favorite celebrity preacher target (not that I am a big fan of Osteen’s myself, but I don’t have hatred for the guy), the same ones who yell, “Grace for Tchividjian, how dare anyone go on the attack against Tchividjian, we’re all sinners,” at the rest of us would be screaming, “Osteen’s head on a platter, he should not even be in the pulpit anyway, rip Osteen apart” if this had been Osteen in the numerous adulteries and cover-ups.

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  19. Interesting podcast/interview of TT, which he linked on his twitter on March 3, so I assume it is that recent, He speaks briefly about Steve Brown (at about the 8 min mark) and how he has known TT since he was 6 and has been a family friend.

    TT says, of Steve Brown, ” …and that guy would take a bullet for me and I would take one for him. He is a non-blinking friend of the highest order.”

    http://www.11podcast.com/e/tullian-tchividjian-on-how-gods-grace-is-his-life/

    Liked by 1 person

  20. When I was a teen, the pastor’s daughter was married to a minister; she had an affair with another minister who was also married. The pastor knew & did nothing. One morning in Sunday School it blew up with the daughter’s husband yelling at his pastor father in law in front of everyone. Eventually they divorced. The minister she cheated with–he and his wife eventually reconcilled. But it was embarrassing b/c the whole church knew.

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  23. @Julie Anne
    March 21, 2016 @ 1:46 PM

    “He wasn’t kidding, Diane!”

    Just so I am understanding this Steve Brown correctly…very good, long time friend of TT and his parents, a pastor/mentor to TT, goes to Willow Creek and was instrumental in getting TT to WC, would take a bullet for TT and last but not least, is one who will go to the grave with your confessed sin.

    Sounds like a good recipe for cover ups.

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  28. If you ever need to tell someone safe about your sins, I’m the guy. I don’t talk in my sleep, never tell others, and will go to my grave with more secrets people have told me than you would believe. The church really isn’t a very safe place. I wish it was, but it isn’t. So most of us hide the reality of who we are, what we’ve done, and the shame we feel. I wanted people (including pastors) to have at least one place where they could feel safe and could deal with their sin and shame. – Steve Brown

    Steve Brown is the kind of guy I’d like to be.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. From where i am sitting…he never uses the word ADULTERY. Say it, TT! Say that you broke your vows to your wife. Own it. It is not a “failure”….it is sexual sin and you had no right to justify it if your wife was also doing the same. You are…no longer able to lead a Christian ministry. You can be forgiven, but you do not meet the biblical qualifications for a church leader. Go get a “regular” job. Support your kids. Get in a mens’ accountability group. But for crying out loud STAY OUT OF THE PULPIT.

    Liked by 4 people

  30. Regarding Mr. Frederick, it’s at least somewhat honest. He calls it sin, refers to the real pain and the consequences. We’ll see how it plays out. The weird thing in my book is that a guy who’s been writing sermons for two decades somehow needs a ghostwriter to help him with this?

    Regarding Brown, his writing appears to be appealing more or less to clergy-penitent privilege, which is a legal principle (I just reviewed MN law in this–it’s there in black and white). I would tend to agree, however, that when we’re talking about serious sin on the part of church leadership, we ought to have some other considerations like the well being of the church–they give up some privilege of privacy with their church office.

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  31. I saw some of those tweets, knowing you, I highly doubted that you were going were going on out on a limb without credible insider information.

    The whole thing is slimy, did Chris ever apologize to you? Bet, I can answer that one word, No. Steve Brown’s synopsis made me sick, the commenters made me smh.

    Julie Anne, IMO you are the living example of this verse: “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.” Thank-You for all your work.

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  33. I just got back from today’s therapy session. It was so awful and so very hard. I had to close my eyes and relive every second of the day my son was taken from me. Minute by minute. I was in tears. And now for the next week, I get to listen to a recording of this everyday. :’-(

    Liked by 1 person

  35. Sooo!!–Let me get this straight!! These pastor guys are really something special and gifted to instruct and lead the rest of us–right? But if they sin and cause a sex scandal, then they are just sinners like the rest of us–right? Huh!! Is that cognitive dissonance I hear or just the sound of a loose ping-pong ball in my head!?!

    Liked by 3 people

  36. The Lord is on his way to purge the Church of these abominable human weeds. They will not be able to deceive him. As for me, I am in the wilderness with the Lord far from all churches ans so called pastors. The Lord is faithful. He will protect his people against these ferocious wolves and tear them out of their mouths and paws. Vote with your tithes! They don’t care about your ballots. Unfortunately…

    Liked by 2 people

  38. Julie Anne

    Chris (aka Pirate Christian) put up a blog post about why he said what he did, trying to cover his tracks. He says the recent news is “tragic.”
    But he still defends the principle. Here is our Twitter convo where he didn’t appreciate me telling him to be careful about defending Tullian:
    https://storify.com/DefendTheSheep/chris-rosebrough-piratechristian

    I’m reading over your exchange with Chris on Twitter, where he asked you for a lone verse that would defend a view he was attributing to you.

    Chris tried that approach on me about a year ago, when he and I got into a polite exchange on Twitter, but on another topic.

    He kept asking me for a single verse that would defend my position (something in regards to the Trinity).

    Never mind that Twitter is not conducive to drawn out, deep theological debates or explanations (you only get 140 characters to express yourself), but the topic of the Trinity itself is one of those things that has to be drawn from the whole of Scriptures. There is no one single Bible verse that proves the point I was trying to get across to him.

    I do like some of Chris’ apologetic work, but his favortism towards certain preachers (if they adhere to doctrine he agrees with) and his sexist attitudes towards women turned me off. I don’t listen to his show as much as I used to.

    The fact that a church would act like a preacher committing serial adultery and abusing his position of trust is also obviously a big sticking point with me.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. I notice TT hasn’t posted on Twitter since March 3rd or Facebook since February. When he was released from CRPC last summer, he was still quite active on social media. Something has changed this time.

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  40. I said in my last post: “The fact that a church would act like a preacher committing serial adultery and abusing his position of trust is also obviously a big sticking point with me.”

    I forgot to add that they would act like ‘it’s not big deal’ is a sticking point. They don’t seem to care too much that preachers are having affairs.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. In regards to Steve Brown:
    Whenever someone comes to you and confesses to terrible behavior, you tell them that they must stop and make things right. If they come back to tell you more misdeeds and never did the right thing the first time you throw them out. Otherwise you have stopped counseling and are now enabling.

    Liked by 4 people

  42. dasheththylittleonesagainstthestones, I have read that he has a public relations firm managing him now and they have convinced him to be quiet.

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  45. Years back a young woman who had been terribly abused by her pastor husband and subsequently by the church that sided with him, found Steve Brown on the internet and became one of his disciples. Her mistake was not taking his cheap grace message to its logical conclusion.

    I warned her that Steve Brown would have the same cheap grace for her abuser.

    And that is the problem with antinomianism. It cannot call evil, evil. It does not recognize there is a basic right and wrong. It applies cheap grace and “magic words” repentance to everything from yelling at the dog to raping children. It ends up oppressing victims even more in the long run.

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  46. Loren, one thing to add to your comment is that counselors are generally mandatory reporters of certain crimes, especially any crime against children. Society has decided that they do not have privilege to talk about horrific abuses of people without reporting the criminal nature of them to the police. Put into ethical and theological terms, it means that we understand that people may need assistance dealing with their thoughts, but when it comes to actions, we do hold people accountable.

    Liked by 1 person

  48. I noticed that, Brian. I saved a copy of them. Basicaly 99% of them was supporting Steve Brown and thanking them for his ministry. 2 of them saying sorry for what he had gone through. Imagine that. He’s a victim now.

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  49. @christianpundit:

    I forgot to add that they would act like ‘it’s not big deal’ is a sticking point. They don’t seem to care too much that preachers are having affairs.

    Privilege of Rank, you know.

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  50. @JulieAnne:

    Basicaly 99% of them was supporting Steve Brown and thanking them for his ministry. 2 of them saying sorry for what he had gone through. Imagine that. He’s a victim now.

    A Poor Poor Innocent Victim — Pity Me! Pity Me! Pity ME!

    Wasn’t there a study that said that the most common characteristic of a sociopath/manipulator (well over 90%) was the ability when caught to turn the tables and play the Poor Poor Pitiful Victim?

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Pastoral abuse is quite common within the western church and the ‘sins’ of the pastor and their leadership team (both genders included I might add) are never, never, ever, as wicked as the ‘sins’ of the lower laity (that would be me). The pastor, head of ‘the 501c. 3 church,’ instead of Jesus Who is supposed to be the Head, the Cornerstone of His Ekklesia/assembly, for the most part surrounds himself with an army of ‘yes’ men and women to do his dirty work in collecting data from the innocent laity victims, so he has ‘sin fodder’ to preach against those lower laity worms who must be put in their place. Church board meetings are the ‘gathering place’ for the leadership spies to reveal the personal information they have gathered from the unaware (that used to be me) with the pastor taking notes on every situation, and thus the sermon begins…..with the words from the wicked pastor leader “This sermon is inspired by the holy spirit.”

    Been there, done that. I asked a ‘proud deaconess’ this question, “It seems like the job of the leadership, elders, deacons and deaconesses, is to befriend the newcomers to your church, gather information, then report back to the pastor and church board; it that true?” Her response was confirming as she stated, “I cannot honesty deny that what you said as false.” So basically she stated, “You are correct in your assessment.”

    Fast forward a couple of years. I had the opportunity of sitting in front of our Assembly of God pastor and another AOG pastor asked to speak at our daughter’s wedding. Like two immature boys, they sat directly in back of me at wedding rehearsal mocking me (abuse always occurs when others cannot hear) because I did not believe in their wicked doctrine of ‘falling down, rolling around like a laughing fool….drunk ‘in the spirit.’ They laughed and giggled like two little boys at my unbelief of one of their ‘pet’ doctrines of the Assembly of God church system. Finally, I had had enough and got up and left the two little pastor boys to continue their little scoffing party. The following day, our pastor gave a beautiful performance officiating over our daughter’s wedding, one which would have deserved an academy award. He was so narcissistically proud of the words coming out of his mouth; for this arrogant man believed that he ‘witnessed’ for Jesus wherever he went.

    Two weeks later, while volunteering at the food stand at the county fair, the deaconess (the one mentioned above) comes flying in the building to work alongside the rest of us, she was distraught and beside herself. She grabbed my arm and pulled me into the storage room to share the news of our AOG pastor.

    Our proud pastor man was ‘caught’ texting love messages to a married women, whom he had been counseling alone at the church, a woman half his age. The texting had been going on for quite sometime and the pastor was often seen driving past her house when he was supposed to be in his ‘office’ working. This mother’s daughter found the messages on her mother’s cell phone and called the church board president to report the pastor’s inappropriate behavior (sin, sin, sin.) Now this pastor claimed he was saved so other pastors reading this will probably call this ‘a mistake’ or ‘an unfortunate circumstance’ because born again Christians do not sin. This is blasphemy……for we are all sinners and as Lydia said above, antinomianism is false doctrine.

    The pastor man was in his glory sitting at our daughter’s reception because he was facing the ‘woman he loved’ a few tables away and at that time, he looked like a teenager discovering his first love. The puzzle pieces started coming together because his ‘mistress’ was there, under his adoring eye, at the wedding. Two weeks prior to the daughter’s turning this wicked man in, the pastor’s sermon topic was ‘THE JEZEBEL SPIRIT.” This is one of the favorite sermon topics that pastors love to use and abuse their congregation with in order to quiet the dissenters, get their own way through subliminal accusations, and to continue living out their secret sexual sin fantasies all the while representing a false Christ.

    There were at least two other women that had approached the church board with accusations of the pastor making advances on them as well, but were called liars and told to keep their situations quiet so as to keep the peace of the church. These women actually spoke the truth and nothing was done to hold the pastor accountable for his philandering ways, let alone addressing his poor wife as to the foolish ways of her pastor husband.

    In religious cults, all this kind of wickedness is kept secret from the rest of us lower laity, so we continue to worship them, sitting under their authority, or ‘covering’ as it was called in my former church. We had ‘spiritual mothers and fathers’ (A Trinity Broadcasting Network horrible false doctrine), that we were supposed to confide in and answer too. As a result of evil and wicked leadership, the church board, elders and deacons and deaconesses voted to KEEP THIS WICKED PASTOR IN OFFICE and go through counseling in what is called ‘pastoral restoration,’ a term utilized in the blasphemous Todd Bentley adultery fraud. (Several important men and women were cult followers of the Todd Bentley’s, Benny Hinn’s, Pat Robertson’s, Oral Roberts’, Jimmy Swaggard’s, Mike Bickle’s, Paula White’s, Kenneth Copeland’s…….the wolf list is endless here).

    It was the church Synod system that told this church that this philandering pastor must leave. So the pastor left and within a few days landed an ‘associate’ pastor position in a larger church in another state. There was no sermon on confessing his own sin to the rest of us (I’ll never forget his mocking me at my daughter’s wedding and his narcissistic Jezebel sermon, looking directly at me while he spoke the name Jezebel), no words of repentance on his behalf for his Jezebel spirit (dealing with his own sexual sins), no humility, and worst of all……no resignation from the pastorate, period. He is still a pastor, leading another blind congregation and I pity those poor souls that lie in wait of his destruction.

    I have come to the conclusion concerning church religion, that when the pastor sins, whether sexually or otherwise, we are to overlook his sin and look the other way, or we wil be called out as unforgiving, or falsely accused of other sins threaten us in shutting us up. It is no wonder Jesus called the religious of his day, “You brood of vipers,” for these snakes latch on to you and never let go until you are dead.

    I am with A. Amos Love and host of others on this site. It is far easier to read, study, and meditate upon God’s Word for myself in allowing His Holy Spirit to minister to me directly in the purity of spirit and truth, instead of having a philandering Assembly of God pastor lording it over me……..Jesus said that He loves his sheep……..most pastors that I have met love themselves far more than they love Jesus’ sheep.

    Liked by 3 people

  54. Katy, as my 15 year old told someone badgering her about not going to church,”it can be a sin to attend some churches, you know”

    She knows, trust me.

    :o)

    You cannot possibly unknow what you know about how that church handled the situation. At some point we are enablers or complicit in the abuse if we don’t vote with our feet.

    Like

  55. I read Browns OP. Clever. He quotes Bonhoeffer to head off comments on cheap grace? Talk about a quote being misapplied!!!!!

    Like

  57. Correct Lydia,
    Thank-you and Amen.

    The thing is….not that my righteousness is found in myself, no! Our righteousness in Jesus, the Christ, alone. That said…the rest of us who have not had an extramarital affair, ever, are still made to believe that we must quickly forgive the pastor, meanwhile the lower laity amongst us, who have sinned in adulterous affairs, are subject to a myriad of boulder throwing/condemnation, with no forgiveness there.

    The double mindedness and the double standards, Jesus called out in his day, and the lower laity who are calling it out today amongst the pastor/leadership network are made to believe we are the worms, the dogs, and some claim…..unsaved.

    And I used to listen faithfully to Chris R. as well (may I remind the audience I once was a J.D. Hall listener addict as well, shame on me), and I want to thank those of you who are pointing out the double standards of the Pirate Christian radio host. Maybe it’s time the ship sails out to sea and never returns.

    Liked by 2 people

  58. The Christian post is reporting that one of the ministers who knew of TT’s first affair & advised him not to tell his wife was removed from his job at CRPC; but the minister was not named.

    Like

  60. “. That said…the rest of us who have not had an extramarital affair, ever, are still made to believe that we must quickly forgive the pastor, ”

    So my question is what about all the people who would as soon slit their wrists than commit adultery, protect pedophiles and abusers? They are just self righteous according to cheap grace. Or, that they have had sinful “thoughts” they never dared act upon and that makes them equally guilty. Sin leveling. This is common thinking in large swaths of evangelicalism. People have no idea this thinking comes from Greek Pagan religions. It is that ingrained. Christianity is pretty much a behavioral free pass if you have the right title. If not, the perp and pastor have the same goal: make it go away. Easiest way to do that is cheap grace and the magic repent word. What they are really doing is spiritually blackmailing people to trust them immediately following a scandal.

    Like

  61. Lydia00, can you tell me what happens to a believer in Jesus like me who struggles with sins daily?

    This ‘cheap grace’ you mention… I’m puzzled and am wondering what I must do in order to have eternal life.

    So I ask you, Lydia, what must I do in order to have eternal life?

    Believe in Jesus?

    Or do an immeasurable amount of good works?

    Or both?

    Like

  62. Can anyone confirm the divorce with pastor Bob & Diane?
    I had been praying for Diane. Did he divorce her?

    Like

  63. If I am understanding the term “cheap grace” correctly, it has to do with the consequences of sin? That is, we are saved by grace, we are forgiven by grace when we repent and confess our sins to God, but cheap grace removes the natural consequences from the picture. The believer who sins is instantly restored to a position of trust, i.e., the pedophile is allowed back in the youth ministry, the pastor who had an affair steps right back into the pulpit, the embezzler continues to take care of the books, etc. All one has to do is say the magic words and all is forgotten. No legal consequences are pursued, i.e., rape or child molesting is not reported to authorities, the person is protected from having to pay the penalty for what they’ve done.

    I’m trying to hash this out because grace, true grace, IS amazing and free. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” But at the same time, he never promises to remove the consequences for sin, in fact he promises that he disciplines every son that he receives.

    The term “cheap grace” might lead someone to think that we have to do works to earn God’s grace when in actuality the only requirement is a changed heart.

    Am I understanding this right?

    Like

  64. “Lydia00, can you tell me what happens to a believer in Jesus like me who struggles with sins daily?

    This ‘cheap grace’ you mention… I’m puzzled and am wondering what I must do in order to have eternal life.

    So I ask you, Lydia, what must I do in order to have eternal life?

    Believe in Jesus?

    Or do an immeasurable amount of good works?

    Or both?”

    we have been down this road. i suppose you want to go down it again?

    We all “struggle” with sin. However, if you are going around perpetually harming others by acting the sin you struggle with be it something Iike adultery, molesting children, murder, cheating, stealing, etc, etc, , then please get help or turn yourself in. Revelation 21 is kind of scary on this score.

    How are you saved? Jesus said it quite a few times: “Repent” and believe. It was his first teaching.

    You are not alone believing Jesus hung on the cross so you could perpetualky and selfishly harm or use others and get a free pass for it. Too bad for the victims,eh? Oh, I forgot, they are the same sinner they just don’t act on their sin struggle. By sin leveling, we can view the molested kid just the same sinner as their rapist. Got it. Good luck with that but thanks for not calling me a heretic this time. :o)

    Like

  65. “The term “cheap grace” might lead someone to think that we have to do works to earn God’s grace when in actuality the only requirement is a changed heart.

    Am I understanding this right?”

    A lot of people consider repentance a work of salvation and don’t even realize it. This idea really has its roots in Greek paganism that the gods control us and that all material world evil only spiritual (that we cannot know) is bad. This is dualism.. The idea is that we have no part in the repent and believe process drawing on God’s wisdom and guidance. The thinking is that the daddy God cruelly punished the son God because his wrath was for us and he had to punush someone.. and because of this we get a pass on harming others. (That is what they refer to as grace)

    Martin Luther wanted to ditch the book of James over this issue because he claimed it teaches works salvation. Which is really silly because we would have to hang on the cross and be resurrected for our part in the process to be a “work” of salvation.

    When we understand the huge sacrifice that God in the flesh made for us, we want to produce the fruit of repentance that comes from believing that. And we will care more for victims, to boot. And yes, we fight the struggles every day.

    Like

  66. @Julie Anne
    March 22, 2016 @ 6:42 PM

    “I noticed that, Donna. They also did not say what happened to the other elder.”

    According to this article:

    “And an elder at Coral Ridge in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., resigned from that church after admitting he had known about Tchividjian’s relationship in 2014 and failed to report it, according to a statement from the church. A second elder also was aware of the affair, but he since has moved and no longer is part of the church, it said.”
    http://www.religionnews.com/2016/03/21/tullian-tchividjian-speaks-out-sin-is-deep/

    Like

  67. Earlier upthread, Diane asked:

    “Why can’t Jesus be the “someone safe” and the “one place” where people feel safe to deal with their sin and shame? Why should it be a person?”

    I dunno, this seems to have been Tullian’s operating theology. I know Mr. Brown has described himself as having the role of confessor, but TT has a clear pattern of not confessing anything (big) until after he’s been found out and confronted. Here’s this megapastor with his own defacto private confessor (something most protestants don’t have), and it didn’t prevent any of this from happening. Tullian could have been manipulating Steve too, for all we know. Now I also think Mr.
    Brown bears some responsibility, which he seemed to admit in his final paragraph. Unlike Catholic priests, he is not bound by canon law to remain completely silent. Even if TT had told him that yes, he’d informed this pastor and those elders, etc. it would have been a good idea to adopt President Reagan’s philosophy of “trust, but verify”.

    Like

  68. I’m not a licensed therapist, but I know a lot about the treatment of sex addicts and sex offenders and unfaithful spouses, having been married to a pedophile for many years. We saw at least four specially trained therapists.

    In my opinion, therapists like Steve Brown who advocate for secrecy, not telling a spouse and not including her in the recovery program, go against standard treatment protocols and open themselves to allegations of malpractice legally and enabling psychologically.

    Liked by 4 people

  69. This was an interview TT gave with Vanderbloemen Search Group posted on Dec. 18th, 2015, (at 30 min mark):

    “People need to see the message that I preached lived um and part of what it means to live in light of this message is I’m free to let you see me at my worst. The gospel sets me free to let you see me at my worst, not just my best, but at my worst…I’m happy to give you a sneak peek into sort of the messiness that is my world right now and um I know some people will interpret that as well he’s grandstanding or trying to seek the spotlight again and they can think that and there’s nothing I can do about that um and who knows maybe there’s part of that that’s true down deep somewhere um I know that I’m worse than I think I am and for the most part as far as I can tell I want the message to be about Jesus…I feel a responsibility to let people see me at my worst um so they can see God at His best”

    This interview was before the affair before the affair became known, which TT hid (except Steve Brown knew who would go to the grave with the info while taking a bullet for TT). including hiding it while giving this interview last Dec., hiding it while doing the March 3rd podcast I posted earlier, and, most importantly, concealing it from his friend Pastor Kevin Labby, who not only gave him a job, but the support of a church, counselling, friendship and whatever he heeded. Not a cool way to be thanking Pastor Labby for his assistance, imo.

    Please, TT, don’t feel the responsibility (book coming soon? interviews? podcasts? conferences?) to let people see you at your worst so they can “see God at His best,” as I’m not sure how much more I can take. All it makes me think is that you are a lying cheater who may be hiding even more “I’m worse that I think I am” things.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. @NJ
    March 23, 2016 @ 6:40 AM
    Earlier upthread, Diane asked:

    “Why can’t Jesus be the “someone safe” and the “one place” where people feel safe to deal with their sin and shame? Why should it be a person?”

    That was meant to be asked of Steve Brown. He’s “the guy” you can tell your sins to, as he never talks in his sleep. I don’t think he should be advertising himself in that way.

    Like

  71. Of course you’re a victim of spiritual abuse. You’re also a person who has been vindicated, that scold on the other site has been proven to either be ignorant or lacking in discernment, you were shown to be right. Time and truth go hand-in-hand.

    Like

  72. “Ah, but if they just confess this sin and repent, then they’ll enjoy the same clean slate and heaven guaranteed to everyone else. And they will have gotten off scot-free. Kind of makes you question the fairness of the whole thing, doesn’t it?”
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    That won’t free them from the consequences of sin right here and now, they’re already experiencing that, such as TT losing what perhaps means so much to him: fame, respect, a nice church income, headship of a national organization, the respect of the adoring followers, the regular companionship of a wife and children, and “Christian” women who have a thing for c-list Christian celebs who happen to have a famous grandfather. That’s all gone, probably never to return.

    The idea that one just gets to play games with God and get out of jail free is as repugnant to me as to you. Not to say that the thief on the cross didn’t receive the same wages–being with Jesus forever–as anyone who’d served Him from youth, but grace isn’t some game where you say a quick prayer and away you go. There has to be a real heart change, a humbling of one’s self, true repentance–and that costs a lot. Look at Saul/Paul. Grace isn’t cheap.

    Liked by 2 people

  73. Hello everyone and thank you for your kind words. Thanks to Julie for publishing my post about my experiences at CRPC and Calvary Ft. Lauderdale. I am grateful that the Lord let me find this forum. It seems that people here understand.

    I would like to become part of this kind group. Maybe I can continue to heal alongside you. Maybe I can help you some, too.

    To that end, I would like to change my posting name from Debbie to “Donner.”

    So, hello all from Donner! May the Lord comfort you all with the comfort He has and which you have extended to me.

    Mod note: I fixed it for you, Donner 🙂

    Liked by 3 people

  74. “He needs to get into some inglorious, thankless job…and force himself to work with ordinary people one on one doing menial work or something. No one is saying he can’t share the gospel with people…He needs to be doing something that he feels is meaningless and find meaning in it without a spotlight, and with some strong accountability like the rest of us have to deal with. Those kinds of day to day service jobs have a funny way of breaking down our pride.”
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    Funny, you just gave the actual Biblical job description of “pastor” or “leader”. If you just added: “lay down your life, as in give up on all glory, and perhaps your friends, family, public reputation, freedom, or very life” you’d have completed a church leader’s Biblical job description.

    What there spotlight-seekers are doing is not “pastoring”; they fit the job description for “superapostle” as described by Paul in his second letter to the church at Corinth.

    Like

  75. “Ah, but if they just confess this sin and repent, then they’ll enjoy the same clean slate and heaven guaranteed to everyone else. And they will have gotten off scot-free. Kind of makes you question the fairness of the whole thing, doesn’t it?”

    Not quite true; look at 1 Corinthians 3, especially verse 15. So the grievous sinner who makes it to Heaven makes it there as a charred cinder and somehow does not get to enjoy it like the person who’s lived a “cleaner” life. Exactly how this works, I don’t totally understand, but the Bible says this. There is a judgement of the unbeliever, and one of the believer, and in the latter, there are rewards and penalties.

    Like

  76. ++ on what Truth Detector notes as well. Christ came as the apparent son of a landless carpenter–double indicator of virtual slavery in Roman society, where most tradesmen were effectively slaves and owning land was the primary indicator of success–and described His mission as that of a shepherd, who would have been pretty much the lowest ranking servant in any household. So-called “pastors” who live in million dollar homes and preach prosperity theology completely miss the character of Christ.

    Like

  78. Hey Debbie/Donner! Thank you for allowing your story to be shared. I’m glad you have found us and plan on sticking around. I hope you find a peace and healing in time.

    Liked by 1 person

  80. Regarding the two CRPC elders, I know one of them and won’t disclose his name (though you could figure it out using Wayback Machine). The other elder hasn’t been at CRPC for some time, but he came from New City and is said to be one of the elders who was heavy handed early on.

    Like

  83. Diane, that Crisis Management dude is surely reading my blog. The video is now down! Thank you for transcribing it AND posting it. It’s not looking good, is it.

    Like

  86. Thank you ! A question about posting: I have to log in every time to WordPress, even though I choose “keep me logged in.” I log in to like a post and log in to post on the private board and log in on the main board.

    Does being out of moderation mean that I don’t have to keep logging in?

    Thanks for your help. I’m still learning your blog! Donna

    Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6.

    >

    Like

  87. Donner, for some reason on the last comment, it looks like “donnerjay” was entered as user. So on my side, Word Press sees that as a new user and it immediately goes to moderation. If you use “Donner,” it should go through fine because you’ve already posted and been approved with that user name.

    It doesn’t bother me if you have to keep testing things. It’s easy for me to delete 🙂 I know others have had issues with WP, so don’t worry about it. Just do what’s easiest for you. Oh, make sure you keep the same e-mail address, too. Any change will cause you to go into moderation again to be initially approved again. Clear as mud? LOL

    Liked by 1 person

  88. Lydia00, repent (Metanoia) means change of mind.

    In John’s gospel the change of mind is about the Christ and not our sin.

    I’ve looked up every verse on Repentance and nowhere is there any reference to ‘turn from sin’ for salvation or validation.

    The tone in your comments says enough.

    My faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord does not magically take away from anger issues.

    Your assessment of the faith of those who abuse is wrong.

    Was David saved?

    He was an abuser?

    Scroll down the Hebrews hall of faith.

    I’m not advocating for evil doers… I’m simply saying you’re not righteous in saying who belongs in the club and out.

    You smell like a Pharisee love.

    Liked by 1 person

  89. FWIW, I’m working through religion like the rest of us.

    My understanding of the Good News is that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the issue.

    Believing on Him as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

    The point of Jesus coming was not to churn out a new bunch of zealots who finger point and strain at gnats.

    I don’t know if TT is one of Christ’s or not.

    His adultery requires some Galatians 6:1 action.

    If Galatians 6:1 wasn’t there then I would imagine everybody in Christ’s Ekklesia to be sin free.

    Otherwise the verse would be required.

    The false churches aren’t of Christ.

    People of faith need to fix their eyes on Jesus and stop reading books, listening to sermons (whatever they are) and be guided by the Spirit.

    Otherwise, why on earth would the Spirit be given?

    This “sinners can’t really be believers” nonsense is depressing.

    Some self sin spotting might humble us all a few notches

    Like

  90. Lifewithpoipose,

    If you or I act do NOT act out our sin struggles because we do not want to harm others you really think that is a “work” of salvation? Is not harming others self righteous now?

    I don’t think you have done enough study on repentance. Do the Greek. Break down the word. It is a “from…to” change of mind AND direction. Jesus said “repent and believe”. You seem to have a sort of fire insurance view of salvation. Not a new creature in Christ view. But then i am not into worm theology, either.

    I believe our image of God is a good thing we chose to Marr with sin as we make our way in corrupted bodies on a corrupted earth. We are more fully human when we seek to do good, justice, mercy, compassion, etc. We are less human when we do harm to others, evil, etc.

    God’s provision of “Rescue” was available to all in the OT. Today David would be in prison for plotting murder, polygamy, etc. I don’t play “trot out OT characters to prove sins against others is OK” game. I realize many pastors do this, though. Heard it hundreds and of times.

    I never once said sinners cannot be believers. That is you putting words in my mouth. However, you want to ignore fruit. A good tree does not bear bad fruit. Not being an agricultural society we tend to not fully grasp that process. If you want to believe that a long time believers molest children and such that is your right. But understand that I believe they have access to the same Holy Spirit. I also think your view ends up not only excusing harm done to others but ends up glorifying it. I have lost the ability to understand why basic decency, honesty and character are no longer Christian virtues but now considered evil and self righteous. Makes church a scary place. The resurrection has no place in that thinking. We all fight our flesh but He who is in me is greater……we are to be overcomes. You seem to be caught up in the sinless perfection/perpetual sinner false dichotomy. That one will keep you stuck at the cross while ignoring the empty tomb.

    Liked by 1 person

  92. “If it is only about believing…even the demons believe in the one True God…..and shudder.”

    Did Jesus die for demons?

    James 2 has nothing to do with eternal life.

    James is simply exhorting believers to live like they ought to.

    Otherwise we are not saved by faith alone at all.

    The ‘demons believe too’ argument against ‘cheap grace’ is ridiculous.

    Salvation is entirely a work of God in Christ.

    Jesus called people to repent and believe.

    Repent from their WORKS of self (law keeping) and to believe in the Christ.

    Ironically it seems you’re trying to move us all back to being perfect to make us righteous.

    I strive daily to do what is good and right.

    I want to be virtuous. So I can feel ‘saved’?

    No. Because striving to do good is right.

    Romans 6 is clear, we should not use grace as a cloak to sin.

    If it were not possible for this to be an issue Paul wouldn’t have wasted the time to write about it.

    So get off your high horse Lydia and start focusing on your own sinfulness.

    Attitude is a great start 👍💩

    Like

  93. “James is simply exhorting believers to live like they ought to.”

    But you are calling that “works salvation”.

    Like

  96. @Julie Anne
    March 23, 2016 @ 8:21 PM

    “Diane, that Crisis Management dude is surely reading my blog. The video is now down! Thank you for transcribing it AND posting it. It’s not looking good, is it.”

    This video does not exist. lol

    But…but…but…it was there yesterday, so it did exist. ??? I think they mean…someone took this video down because it was embarrassing. So confused…Tullian seemed to really like what he said. The interviewers seemed to like all he said, so what’s the problem, crisis guy?

    Oh well. I’ll transcribe something interesting Tullian said at the other place:

    “God has really made Orlando my home and He’s made it feel like my home because of the people He has surrounded me with, the church that He has given me in that regard. So I am very grateful. My role in the church is actually very limited. I’m basically on paid sabbatical (starts laughing) ….(one of the hosts then says- hey could you talk to him (Labby) about me?…more laughing)… yeah, and it’s really and you know it’s basically just enough to you know get the bills paid um they’re taking care of me in a very gracious and generous way. Kevin has become one of my dearest friends. I meet with him on almost a daily basis (interviewers: “wow”). We just go over everything from what he’s doing in the church and ways I might be able to help. We talk about his preaching, we talk about sermon series, we talk about theology and we talk about my life. ”

    In TT’s mind, God brought: Pastor Labby to TT, a church to TT, elders to TT, counselling to TT, church friends to TT, a care plan to TT, a funny, paid sabbatical to TT, a dear friend in the senior pastor (with whom he meets almost daily) who shares info about the church, sermons and ways TT can help to TT, and a new home in Orlando that he loves to TT.

    I mean, even the interviewers are jealous.

    Liked by 1 person

  97. More Tullian from the other place:

    “I love living a quiet, offline life right now. There’s nothing that scares me more, in fact (laughing), I was hesitant to even accept y’all’s gracious invitation to be on this podcast, even though, you know, I mean I am very grateful for you guys and I am hesitant only because I’m like, I don’t know, man, I just I don’t want, you know, I just don’t want to hear the noise anymore. I just want quiet and I want peace and I wanna heal and I wanna continue the process of confession and repentance and healing and uh, just, you know, sort of recalibrate in every way emotionally, spiritually, mentally…I mean God really took my life down…sometimes it takes losing everything to get to that place where Jesus plus nothing really does equal everything.”

    Sixteen I or me words in the above. Did God take his life down or did Tullian? I smell a Jesus Plus Nothing Equals Everything… part 2…”fallen” pastor’s version.

    But with regard to how he was even hesitant to do this interview, I don’t understand how he could seriously mean that when a few days later he would do his 2 day speaking gig at that church promoting his 3 year old book, One Way Love, which had to have been planned in advance of the interview. Why wasn’t he hesitant to be involved in that? Surely that is much more “noisy” than tweeting a tweet online or doing an interview on the phone.

    Liked by 2 people

  98. Seneca Griggs said,

    List of 15 richest pastors in the U.S. Not a neo-cal among them.

    Why so loyal to a systemic theology?

    Even given your point, if we were to make lists of churches / pastors who spiritually abuse their members, who hold to authoritarian views, it would likely be over 50% Neo-Cal, hence Neo-Cal’s frequent mentions on survivor abuse blogs.

    Which is not to say that Christians of other theological persuasions cannot or do not abuse people, because they certainly do.

    Guys like you are more concerned that your preferred theological view may be taking a beating on sites, than you are with the people who ARE being abused under people who hold that same theology.

    Liked by 1 person

  99. lifewithporpoise said,

    Was David saved?

    He was an abuser?

    Did David live in on-going, unrepentant sin?

    Did God hold David accountable for his sins and/or allow David to suffer the natural consequences of his sin?

    Did God send any prophets to confront David about David’s sin?

    From 2 Samuel:

    <

    blockquote>Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I appointed you king of Israel and saved you from Saul.

    8 I gave you his kingdom and his wives. And I made you king of Israel and Judah. And if that had not been enough, I would have given you even more.

    9 So why did you ignore the Lord’s command? Why did you do what he says is wrong? You killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword of the Ammonites and took his wife to be your wife!

    10 Now there will always be people in your family who will die by a sword, because you did not respect me; you took the wife of Uriah the Hittite for yourself!’

    11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘I am bringing trouble to you from your own family. While you watch, I will take your wives from you and give them to someone who is very close to you. He will have sexual relations with your wives, and everyone will know it. 12 You had sexual relations with Bathsheba in secret, but I will do this so all the people of Israel can see it.’”

    13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

    Nathan answered, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You will not die.

    14 But what you did caused the Lord’s enemies to lose all respect for him. For this reason the son who was born to you will die.”

    <

    blockquote>

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  100. In my former abusive church, discipleship and “sitting under a teacher” (these two terms were intermixed constantly as part of their religious indoctrination program). When I first stepped foot into that church system (AOG pastor), it was assumed by the leadership and those within the laity (the ones who deemed themselves as important for they were networking their way up to holding a leadership title), that my family and I were ‘UNSAVED.’

    Yes! We were assumed to be unsaved, for we did not have the Christianese speak, the Christianese lifestyle as defined by their standards, nor did we tithe (oh my, I’m going to hell for sure now!) Let me be frank here, I did not watch Trinity Broadcasting Network, nor God T.V., nor the Hallmark Channel so I don’t have regular access to learning the current trends in christianese speak, and this was one flag against me/us. Another disturbing trend to the leadership network (cheating pastor man and his forceful wife included) was that we chose not to spend big bucks in attending this conference nor that big name so called Christian singer or band that rocks the stage near us too, as they called it, “strengthen our faith.” Just simply cannot see the reason to spend $500 bucks for an overnight motel stay, conference or concert ticket and a measley gross, untastey meal in order to make myself appear like a religious person. It was discovered by some very pushy women, that I did not have the vast array of christianese books in my personal religious library, so I could not beging to relate on their lofty level what the celebrity were saying about our faith in Jesus, so hence, in their minds’ eye, I didn’t know a thing about the Bible, nor did I have much faith. I began receiving “this book and that CD” of their favorite wolf in sheep’s clothing to read and listen too, out of the goodness of their hearts of course……..side bar……and I sat in their Bible studies (note; our Bibles were never opened to study the Word of God in context, instead, I heard the most juicy gossip about everyone in the community as well as the bragging and boasting of how they were ‘witnessing’ to everyone through their works.) And it was soon discovered that I did not believe in the tithe under the New Covenant, Jesus, the Christ. And oh….must report that one to the cheating pastor man……….

    Hence, the reason for a series on tithing sermons, for after all, the religious spies report EVERYTHING they see, hear, touch, smell, and eat (from the lower laity) back to the cheating, lying pastor man. We heard a most boastful, prideful, and arrogant sermon one week when this AOG pastor said and I quote, “My wife and I even tithe on our gross income as well as our life insurance policy.” Yep…..tithing on a life insurance policy…..does that mean I should tithe on my vehicle liability policy, or my hail insurance?

    This type and shadow of ‘discipling and sitting under their favorite teachers, preachers, and their leadership in lording it over the lives of the lower laity’ is wicked, and it is evil, and Jesus wanted no part of this ‘man’s religious systems,’ for He publicly called out the wicked men who were spewing these lies in His day.

    Not one single person, man, woman, nor child, ever encouraged me or my family members to read our BIBLES for ourselves in learning the truth from God, the Holy Spirit.

    We must always, always, always, discern those who are trying to lord it over us in stealing the joy of our salvation, which is in Jesus, alone, from us. He knows who are His children.

    So incredibly thankful that He still Lives and that He is still in control of all the affairs of mankind. Alleluia!

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  101. One thing that bothers me about the Tullian Tchividjians of the world.

    I’m afraid guys like him do not have a genuine calling to the ministry but only end up working as a pastor because it’s a family thing.

    My father has told me several times since I’ve been a kid, “Notice how often sons take up the same type of employment as their dad.”

    In other words, if a man is a dentist, his son will probably go to dental school and become a dentist also. If dad is a school teacher, the son will likely be as well.

    I don’t think Tullian Tchividjian, Bob Coy, and guys like this meet any of the standards of church leadership the Bible lays out. They need to get out of professional Christianity altogether. No more writing books about Jesus, no more going on podcasts to talk about the faith, no more going to Christian conferences.

    Just drop out of the spotlight altogether. Go back to college and pursue another career field, one not having to do with the faith. Become an air conditioner repairman. A librarian. A lawyer. Anything that doesn’t have to do with making a buck off Jesus or the Bible.

    I think with these guys, the faith is more about making a living – getting their bills paid – than it is a desire to serve God or to serve people. If these guys claim to be sincerely into God, they can do so while working 9 to 5 as an accountant, school teacher, plumber, or whatever.

    And in some cases, because Dad and Grandfather were ministers, it’s what I know, am familiar with, so hey, I am going to become a minister to. It’s more about carrying on family tradition or sticking to a comfort zone than it is having an honest to goodness call to be a pastor or to be in some leadership position.

    I would guess that being a Professional Christian is a much more easy, cushy job and a way to earn money, than to be an ‘Average Joe Christian’ who has to sit in a car in a commute every day to sit in a cubicle in a regular 9 to 5 job.

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