Christian Patriarchy: men who resort to physical force (wife spanking, restricting movement, etc), to gain control of their wives
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Always Learning is a blog by Lori Alexander. Her husband, Ken, oversees it and comments as well. Lori claims to:
“love teaching women to be sober, to love their husbands and children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, and obedient to their husbands as the Bible instructs me to do. This is a personal teaching blog sharing what I have seen work from God’s Word in my life and the lives of many others.”
Lori sees herself as a Titus 2 woman for mentoring younger women. Twice above we read that she uses the Bible as her instruction book. This is apparently to give her more credibility as a Christian wife and because she claims her teaching comes from the Bible, who would want to question her? Oh, oh, oh, pick me!!!
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The title of her disturbing article is, When Words Won’t Resolve Arguments.
Mrs. Alexander first quoted a paragraph from a New York Times article. One can safely predict, from Lori’s article title, that the sample quotes probably do not encourage using words in arguments. But how else could someone resolve an argument? The following New York Times quote is about a couple who got in a stupid argument about where to go for dinner. (I bolded words for emphasis):
In previous relationships, I might have stormed out and sought diversion in a bar, writing off the possibility of resolution as both futile and beneath my pride. This time, though, I swept up Deanna in my arms, damsel-in-distress-style. Caught by surprise, she succumbed to my rescue. I had literally elevated us above our stalemate. We kissed and headed out to dinner, no longer concerned about where we went.
Here’s more:
Talk can yield clarity, understanding and empathy, but sometimes it just brings exhaustion and recrimination. Sometimes action is the only pathway to good will. And when I picked her up, I proved it. (Source: Superheroes, Just for Each Other)
Ok, as a side note, t’s important to note that the image displayed at the top of Lori’s article shows a black and white photo of John Wayne with a lady in a dress swung over his knees. The woman has a look of terror on her face, while John Wayne has a smug look on his face. What is he doing? He is spanking her with a hand-sized metal shovel.
I found a clip from the John Wayne movie. Be forewarned, it is disturbing to watch. Notice the looks on the faces. The men seem to enjoy watching this woman being spanked, as if this is socially acceptable.
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But why would Lori Alexander use this image and title if she was not at least implicitly promoting wife spanking or men using physical force to control their wives?
Below, Lori discusses the differences between men and women in using words in arguments:
Men don’t like to always use words to solve everything, whereas women do. Marriage conferences teach how couples should “fight fair;” remembering to take all these given steps, asking the right questions, listening carefully, keep talking until its resolved, etc. How come women have mostly gotten their way in resolving conflict and men have to accommodate them? {“Now, honey, you forgot this step and you aren’t allowed to say that to me.”} This is NOT how it should be in a Christian marriage!
Ken and I watched an old John Wayne Movie a few months ago. He was married to a very difficult wife. She was always nasty to him. Near the end of the movie, he took her over his knee and spanked her! She behaved herself after this and they were kissing and enjoying each other at the end of the movie. I guess this was a common occurrence in many of the old movies! {Can you imagine a movie like this today? No, instead we get perversity of every kind but if a man acted like John Wayne, he’d be put into prison.}
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What is the common theme in both image and New York Times article?
Answer: Husband uses physical force to control wife.
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If a man behaved like John Wayne, he should be in prison. It is called Domestic Violence – assault. But I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that the woman “behaved herself.” She was forced into submission. Did she have any other options? Do you notice how Lori paints this John Wayne movie in a positive light as if she’s sad that this option is no longer available?
Most men don’t like to just “talk it out” ad nauseam. They’re sick of arguing with their wives and would love to have some way to just STOP the arguing and have peace.
A better interpretation would be: some Patriarchal men like to have their own way and are not concerned about their wife’s feelings or concerns.
This is all most men want; peace and joy in their homes. As many of you know, I encourage wives to NOT argue with their husbands since we are commanded in the Bible to not argue and God has ordained the husband as the leader of the home. However, since most women like to control their husbands, many marriages are filled with strife and arguing.
I know how this works. When I was in the Homeschool Movement in which Patriarchy was endorsed, if a woman did not agree with her husband, she was to remain silent and pray for him to change his mind. Having peace comes at a price. The wife in this scenario is de-personalized. She doesn’t get to voice her concerns.
Ack!!! She said they mentored a couple.
Please stop mentoring, Ken and Lori!
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I have some questions: did the wife give her husband permission to be wrapped up in a bear hug, or did the husband force this onto his wife? If he is forcing, this is not love or respect, it is using physical force to control. This is abuse.
Godly husbands should have a way to take leadership and stop the merry-go-round that so many couples are on, as long as it is not physically abusive, of course.
It is apparent that they are clueless as to what constitutes as physical abuse.
Men get sick and tired of being politically correct according to feminist’s laws and always having to talk everything to death.
She seemed to like the John Wayne movie above, but now she’s gone PC for modern times. Rats! Those pesky laws interfere with men being men. Gotta love how she throws around that F word.
After all, they are men and we should appreciate their masculinity instead of trying to stifle it.
How is talking with a wife stifling a husband’s manhood?
Let’s take a look at some of the comments and read Ken and Lori’s responses (and what they conveniently don’t address). We’ll start with a comment from Dave who is definitely in favor of physical restraint:
Lori’s husband, Ken responded:
Wifely submission is a voluntary and willful act just as a husband or wife must voluntarily submit to God if they love Him. God does not push or pull, or bully a person, even a Believer into doing what is right, and submitting to Him and His Word.
That said, there is nothing that forbids a husband from reminding his wife of God’s demand that she submit and respect her husband. Even if the husband can do little about a difficult wife he can call upon her to consider if she is in the faith, if she loves her Lord Jesus and if she is going to honor Him as Lord, or not.
Ouch! So if a husband decides his wife is not submissive enough, he gets to question her salvation?
I was at my wits end it seems at times trying not to necessarily get Lori to submit, but to get her to see the areas where she was being difficult with me.
It sounds like Ken was being a bully.
True willful submission was icing on the cake that I was not necessarily desiring, but God was, from her. It was my appeal for her to consider God’s demands upon her life that helped her realize that indeed she loved her Lord Jesus and such love demanded her obedience to Him, and in turn her willful submission to her husband.
He’s trying to tell us that he wasn’t demanding her to submit, but he really was. Additionally, he went even lower by presuming to be God and judging her salvation. Convincing her to love God meant that she had to submit to him. In other words, he’s using God to meet his entitlement needs of submission.
Also in the comments section, we read from another commenter, Joanie:
One time I was throwing a tantrum (I had a thin nightgown on) on and he picked me up and carried me outside in the frigid temps and deposited me on a snow covered dog house! I huffed and puffed a few more times to show I was not gonna take that, but he told me he would do it again, but in the end I had to wind down because as much as I told myself I was big and bad ( I wasn’t) I knew he was bigger and badder. Honestly, it is hard to believe I ever acted like this. He says today he saw a diamond in the rough back then. I am so grateful. Today I try to sense what he wants or sees as direction and work to make it happen because I trust him so much.
How does Ken respond to this? Does he tell Joanie that her husband was wrong and abusive for taking her out in the frigid air in a thin nightgown and putting her on a snow-covered dog house? Let’s see:
It is such a difficult thing to know as a godly Christian husband how much to just love and accept our wife’s antics and being difficult, knowing we are to love our wife as Christ loves the church, and when we need to stand up to our wive [sic] as Christ eventually does with His disobedient children and insists on consequences. Today’s society mores, feminist views and even state laws may prevent many men from picking up their wife and throwing her into the snow to cool off in her thin nightgown, but excellent that your husband’s consistency in dealing with you helped lead you to a much better place and marriage. That is the goal for most husbands.. not to win, oppress or punish a wife, but to help her to good changes in attitudes and behaviors that will form the basis for personal growth in the marriage.
In conclusion, Ken and Lori Alexander do not think that husbands and wives should use words when they have arguments. They think it’s better for husbands to lead, and in the above case, we can see that they seem to be okay with the idea of picking a wife in a thin nightgown and putting her in the snow for “misbehavior.” They also approve of John Wayne’s spanking, but offer the disclaimer that it’s too bad that we have modern laws that prevent that from happening now. Ken and Lori both try to say they would never condone abuse, yet when abuse is clearly described to them, they dismiss it.
You can be sure that those who read Lori’s blog could easily interpret Ken and Lori’s words as condoning wife spanking (but just be careful that you don’t get caught). With this kind of talk about wives being rebellious, physically forcing her into a bear hug, etc, women are treated as a possession, an objects to own. This is NOT loving wives as Christ loves the church. Christ does not coerce His bride or physically restrain her. To claim that this teaching is Biblical is FALSE TEACHING and is ABUSIVE.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
In the State of Victoria, Australia, the Government is presently holding a Royal Commission into Domestic Violence. Also our Australian of the Year, Rosie Batty, whose son was killed by her ex-husband, is a women’s domestic violence advocate. Lori has set herself up as a matriarch however what she advocates is so anti-Scripture it is frightening. Who is she trying to impress men with her abhorrent preaching because she is certainly not impressing God. Maybe I should send her a copy of the findings of our Royal Commission at least it will keep her from blogging for about 100 years.
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Rhonda, I’ve been hearing very positive actions taken in Australia to stop domestic violence. I hope some of that comes our way in the States. We have a long ways to go here. And obviously, it still exists in the church and is promoted in some parts of Christianity.
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I think I’m offended…. To portray men as brutes is not fair to the gender… Maybe a self fulfilling prophesy.
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By the way, I’m offended by the original blogger, not Julie Anne!
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So women in general, according to them, all get their way through words, while men are helpless in the face of the verbal onslaught and just want to get (and rightly so!) physical?
This is not only a disgusting misrepresentation of women, but is also an awful view of what men should be. This is as damaging to a man’s spiritual and intellectual maturation as it is to the woman. What incentive is there to grow, for either spouse? Sick. Even more so because many times these teachings go hand in hand with “follow the man of God no matter what”, and men are an instrument of control for women in the hand of an abusive pastor. What a twisted “faith”, that appeals to a certain type of man, and duped women.
Another thought. I think of what would have been had I tried to be the “manly man” in my wife and my relationship, like some of these Christian “pundits” want. The result would be misery for both of us. The personality stereotypes don’t fit at all. We’re intellectual and physical equals. I guess that’s undesirable in their view of “God’s natural order.”
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And the *winkwink* wife abuse is no longer legal, but if your wife is really a submissive Christian the law will never know, right? *winkwink* hints….
My gosh. You can’t get much more disgusting. Criminal.
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“But why would Lori Alexander use this image and title if she was not at least implicitly promoting wife spanking or men using physical force to control their wives?”
Isn’t that the elephant in the room? Lori is just swooning over the John Wayne spanking scene. She criticizes the fact that “if a man acted like John Wayne, he’d be put into prison.” Lori and Ken have danced around the wife spanking issue for a long time. They deny that they promote it, and then gush over a wife-spanking movie scene in contrast to “perversity of every kind” in movies today.
A few years ago when I, regrettably, discovered that domestic discipline even existed, I stumbled across an article with a picture of Jesus spanking a woman.
This picture said more than any words ever could. No, I could never imaging Jesus doing such a thing, nor does the Bible promote such behavior.
“Most men don’t like to just “talk it out” ad nauseam.”
I’d love to hear some men weigh in on this. My husband and I have always enjoyed talking to each other. I agree that narcissistic, patriarchal., male chauvinists who must always be right and have the last word probably “don’t like to just ‘talk it out.'” I’m not convinced that this applies to “most men.” Are there other Christian men out there who believe husbands should “be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers?”
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Yes, which is partly why I found the article stupid. I have no desire to make my wife do anything. If I can’t get her on board with something intellectually, well, maybe her idea is better or we still have more thinking to do. I don’t even understand the dynamics of the relationship they are advocating for. It’s foreign to both my and my wife’s mind.
And I’m not an expert on mental health or issues that might need therapy, but doesn’t it sound like some of these people need professional help? Regular tantrums, physical altercations? I’m sure that just needs more biblical counseling.
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“I dare you to let your husband read this post and tell him that he should be creative with you whenever you ever argue with him or get out of control! A huge part of respecting your husband is respecting the way he wants to lead you.”
Anybody catch the contradiction here?
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Ugh.. That’s a parent/child relationship (not even a positive one) vs a marriage….. Yuck
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They are both sick.
Dave in the comments says he would use physical restraints that ‘other authorities use’ if he could get away with it. He is relishing in what is being advocated—‘shut her up, control her, doesn’t matter how you do it’. He then falsely says this is how God operates.
The abuse going on in these homes has to be awful.
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“A huge part of respecting your husband is respecting the way he wants to lead you.”
““be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect – 1 Peter”
If a huge part of respect is respecting your partner’s lead, and husbands should – according to the Bible – respect wives, should husbands respect the way wives want to lead, and ask them to get creative about it?
Seriously, what a perversion from people who claim to follow the Christ who told his (male) followers: “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20)
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The subtitle to her blog, “Always Learning” should be —
Brainwashed, Bullied, & Beaten Down–passing the torch of abuse in the name of God.
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Gosh, I can’t remember the last time my husband and I actually argued about anything. It’s just not how we do things. We have in-depth conversations and come to a consensus on major decisions. We don’t have to scream, nag, or get nasty. I agree, Lori paints all women as out-of-control nagging machines. If someone in the marriage is constantly yelling or resorting to physical restraint, something is wrong.
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From Lori’s deeply disturbing post:
Correction: Women want men to behave like people and talk things out.
There, Lori, fixed it for you.
There’s sooooo much more I could say, but I should probably let it marinate for a while. You’re right, Julie Anne, that’s a very weird and frightening article.
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After the spanking (with a shovel?! John Wayne said, “Now get your divorce!”
Well, yeah.
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Just love those stereotypes. Women use words, men use force. Perhaps it is so in patriarchal relationships that follow warped, misinterpreted scriptures. I suppose women in such relationships are too darned afraid to use force because they know they’d thereafter be beaten by their “Godly” husbands.
It has been my experience that in a co-equal relationship, one submitting to another, her body owned by him, his body owned by her, in which genders are understood to be brief, temporal conditions, there being neither male nor female, but oneness in Christ Jesus, that when husband and wife are at their worst and sinning against one another, the wife is every bit as likely to vigorously grab hold of the husband as he is to do the same to her, but that neither would ever think it’s fair game to deposit the other in a snowbank in their night clothes. Were I to ever try that one, I’d be in genuine fear for my safety.
I married into a family of giants, I’d like to see one of these patriarchal “men o gawd” try that routine on my wife or the ladies in her family, who average over 6 feet tall and are for the most part bona fide athletes, those “men o gawd” would be walking gingerly and with a pronounced limp for some time after.
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The whole tantrum throwing, physical restraining/spanking/time outing thing reminds me of Taming of the Shrew. Unfortunately, this idea has been around for a long, long time and doesn’t seem to be going away.
A couple of other thoughts:
In Dave’s comment, he says that marriage authority is the model for government. Huh? I’m really lost on that.
And, this whole dynamic is really fascinating to me. I’ve never known any grown woman who will throw herself into tantrums which would lead a man to physically restrain her. I guess it happens, which fascinates me. To me, this type of relationship seems like something out of a movie (or a play).
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It all starts from the false assumption that the Bible says men are in charge of the couple/family. The Bible doesn’t say that. Patriarchs at best would say a woman gets to have a voice but the man makes the final decision, as if marriage were some sort of lopsided democracy. Sorry, but there’s no BIble teachign to support that either. (Marriage is not a democracy – why this is a concept patriarchs would find disturbing.)
As for talking things out, a retired colleague once told me “I’ve found that more communication is almost always better than less.” Why the word “always”? Because sometimes people use words to hurt. Then again, that’s not true communication anyway. And my colleague is a man who was advising me on how to be better at my job, which includes working alongside men and women both.
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“This is not only a disgusting misrepresentation of women, but is also an awful view of what men should be. This is as damaging to a man’s spiritual and intellectual maturation as it is to the woman. What incentive is there to grow, for either spouse?” – Govpappy
Govpappy, I am not comfortable with what you seem to have said there. “As damaging” imply that men suffer as much when they get their own way and beat women as the women do.
I believe that hitting a woman and lording it over her causes spiritual damage to a man. But I am uncomfortable for the same reason that I would be uncomfortable if someone said: “Rape is not only traumatic for women, but is also damaging for men who rape. It is as damaging to a man’s spiritual life to rape, as rape is for the woman.”
You are not 100% wrong, but this is talking as if the perpetrator should get the same amount of compassion..
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Her blog is named “Always learning.” The Bible actually talks of women who are “always learning”:
“6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.… – 2 Tim 3.
Men of depraved mind oppressing women who are “always learning”, yet never finding the truth, and these men doing it from inside the same household (“enter households”) as the woman? Does this remind you of any Christian™ Patriarchy bloggers you recently heard of?
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Retha, I just read that 2 Timothy passage last night, but didn’t recognize that connection. Thanks for laying it out here for us.
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Wow, Retha. Very interesting connection with 2 Tim 3!
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You’re right – i didn’t word that very well. That’s not what I was trying get across, that abuse is as bad for the abuser as it is for the victim – men are given all the power here. I was trying to get across that the philosophy is also damaging to the man’s growth – he’s not learning to love and respect his spouse, as Christ loves. There’s no rewarding, healthy relationship when you’re taught this. Men aren’t going to be the best they can be either under this mess. The fruit speaks for itself – immature men; suppressed, abused wives; and kids caught in the crossfire. Thanks for keeping my language honest.
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Ken response to the snowbank comment, “It is such a difficult thing to know as a godly Christian husband how much to just love and accept our wife’s antics and being difficult, knowing we are to love our wife as Christ loves the church, and when we need to stand up to our wive [sic] as Christ eventually does with His disobedient children and insists on consequences. Today’s society mores, feminist views and even state laws may prevent many men from picking up their wife and throwing her into the snow to cool off in her thin nightgown, but excellent that your husband’s consistency in dealing with you helped lead you to a much better place and marriage. That is the goal for most husbands.. not to win, oppress or punish a wife, but to help her to good changes in attitudes and behaviors that will form the basis for personal growth in the marriage.”
Did you notice that he did in fact admit, in a subtle, round-about way, that what that man did to his wife was indeed against the law!
It is also interesting to me that these “men” never presume that their wives might lead them closer to God, teach (if only by example), or help their husbands “grow in good changes in attitudes and behaviors that will form the basis for personal growth in marriage.”
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Loura – If you go to their blog and read the comments, they both flip flop in their responses. They acknowledge the legalities of domestic violence – aka wife spanking – yet speak of it positively as if this is or can be a proper way to handle arguments if only the laws would allow it to happen. I think what they are really saying is they wish they could turn back time so they could freely come out and exhort men to spank their wives.
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My dad came to stay with us during the last year of his life. He was a huge fan of the old western TV shows and movies. One of the last John Wayne movies he watched here at the house was that very movie and I expressed my disgust of that scene. Now I hear that it was an illustration on a christian blog??? OMG
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This is just SO FAR from my realm of understanding that my first reaction is to just think these women are dumb for staying and not realizing that they are marginalized, disrespected, and abused. But then I think about the Duggars and the messages the girls in that family are raised with (‘I, your father, will provide you the rules of courtship and I must approve any suitors. You, woman, will be chaste, not even kissing your husband-to-be until the wedding, and will then submit to him in all ways, being “wifely,” cleaning the house and birthing babies… and you may definitely not get an education!’ And then I come to see where this all comes from. It’s tragic.
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Carol, I can see why you’d think that. It’s important to understand the emphasis placed on marriages. In some of these circles, they do not believe in divorce, period (even for adultery as Jesus mentioned in the New Testament). So, they are trying to make the best out of a very bad situation. Also, they have been taught the “husbands rule over wives” mantra and “wives are to be quiet, submissive.” They are taught that husbands are their spiritual head and that God placed them in that position over them. So, if they truly believe that, they will internalize what their husbands say and will take the blame for any problem in their marriage.
Also, as I said in the article, we were taught that if our husbands had issues, we could lovingly appeal, but after that, we were taught to pray for our spouses to change. If our husbands didn’t change, then we must accept that we will suffer for righteousness sake. God will not give us anything we can’t handle. Do you see how wives are stuck in this system?
Wives carry the burden of their abusing spouse and have no place to go. If they seek counsel, they will be asked if they are being submissive. Also, it is very bad to discuss your husband negatively to anyone. All of this makes it nearly impossible for an abused wife to get help. She is in a very lonely place because most likely she’s in a community who believes the same.
That is why I’m so thankful for A Cry for Justice blog which deals with domestic violence, my private forum, etc. The internet might be the only place where a woman can get support and proper understanding of the situation in which she is living and can get real help.
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Ugh. I can’t remember the last time an article made me physicall sick to my stomach. And I’m about to go get all dressed up in corset and petticoats. Lol, talk about restrictive! Guess I’ll keep this article in mind when I’m trying to pretend I’m a Victorian Lady!! Of course, back then they knew that a real gentleman NEVER hurts a lady. So maybe it’s not a great comparison after all.
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On another interesting note, a few years back I tried to watch the movie in question (McLintock!). At that time I was into any old western I could find. And as much as I thought he was boring, I still believed the John Wayne was a pretty good role model. But for some reason, I couldn’t finish it. I never got to the infamous ‘spanking scene.’ Now I believe it was a God thing. Seeing that would have scarred me permanently.
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I have been following Lori’s blog for a while through the site “Free Jinger World of Snark.” Sometimes Ken gets on the “Snark” site and argues with the readers who are appalled over the things Lori writes. If you challenge anything on Lori’s site, your comment is not posted. If anyone upsets Lori, Ken often steps in to “protect” Lori from critics. Sometimes I wonder if Lori and Ken are a parody of the patriarchal movement based on some of the ridiculous ideas they promote.
They take crazy to a new level !!! I believe Lori is a bored privileged white woman with too much time on her hands. Lori does suffer from a lot of physical pain (which I am sorry for) and is probably limited in her activity. I wish she would make better use of her time. If Ken sees this blog, believe me he will be commenting. And unlike him, JA is confident enough to post it and let him hang himself!!
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Well, we had Cabinet Man come by for a visit. I don’t mind people exercising their free speech here 🙂
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following
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Someone on Twitter just sent a tweet saying that the wife in the movie left John Wayne because he cheated on her. That makes the spanking even worse!
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Not only did John Wayne’s character spank his wife, he also assisted in his daughter’s spanking from her love interest. No wonder the Alexanders were so titillated by this movie.
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Ugh – BTDT – This is exactly how the system of Patriarchy is supposed to work. Dad screens his daughter’s future husband to make sure he has all of the qualifications met on how to be Priest of the home which of course includes how to discipline wife and kids. I’m so disgusted by Patriarchy.
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I think what they are really saying is they wish they could turn back time so they could freely come out and exhort men to spank their wives.
I think you are right, Julie Anne. I believe what they are doing is trying to play both sides of the fence while attempting to convince America to change our evil feminist ways of thinking about male privilege so that the John Wayne way of doing things is socially acceptable and applauded. But in the mean time they’ll spare their own heinies by using double talk. They is clever like that.
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Well, we had Cabinet Man come by for a visit.
Oh yes, that luscious Robert who came and talked dirty to us! Hubba hubba! 🙂
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So the husband picks up his nightgown-clad wife and dumps her on top of a snowy doghouse to cool her off while she’s having a tantrum. And this is praised as a husband showing his “godliness”.
So, the next time she has a tantrum, if he throws boiling water on her to demonstrate the heat of her temper, will that be considered “Godly” too? Or will the nurses and doctors looking over her burns in the ER consider it abuse, and call the police?
It all makes me sick.
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Imagine the story they’d have to tell in the ER if she got frostbite or hypothermia. He’d probably convince her to lie, you know, because he was treating her in a godly way and the world just doesn’t understand these things. :::sarcasm::::
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So the secret of a good marriage relationship is for the husband to inflict pain on one of the more personal areas of his wife’s body. Oh, and also to toss his thinly clad wife into the snow. This is not Christian behavior. It is sexually perverse sadomasochism.
Lori Alexander does not need to be publishing a blog. She needs to be receiving therapy. Until she renounces the lie that women must purchase “love” by yielding to a “husband’s” domination, she will remain in bondage.
Depending upon the degree to which her supposedly Christian husband dominates and controls her–i.e., depending upon whether her marriage is or is not in name only–she will not be free until her marriage is legally dissolved.
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Took a stroll over to the comment section as I always like to check in on JA (dis)honesty. She *happened* to forget to mention or maybe more edited the comment to make her point on our snow deposited wife:
1) It was the wife reporting the incident
2) She started out by saying how gentle and loving her husband was to her despite her throwing many years of “tantrums” where the tantrums included her
3) throwing books and anything she could get her hands on AND hitting and ramming him
Status quo for JA’s beliefs, a woman admits to violence against her husband, while admitting her husband was both loving and gentle (and doing the right thing) and yet JA screams domestic abuse by the husband.
So a few things we can conclude from this. JA is dishonest. JA has no idea what it is like for a man who faces violence from his wife, let alone how he is supposed to deal with it. Completely clueless (oh, did you know that domestic violence is almost done equally by both men and women!). Oh and lastly, JA is dishonest. Did I say that already? LOL.
Yes, the post was troubling but if I’m throwing stuff at my husband and hitting him and all he does is carry me outside, snow or no snow, UNTIL I cool down and he is a loving husband, I figure I’m a lucky wife.
I won’t call it a new low for JA, but hope you realize she usually has her *facts* this straight.
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“if I’m throwing stuff at my husband and hitting him and all he does is carry me outside, snow or no snow, UNTIL I cool down and he is a loving husband, I figure I’m a lucky wife.”
Two wrongs do not make a right. “Love is patient, love is kind…” What is kind about dumping your wife in a snowbank in her nightie? What is patient about it? I could go on. If a wife is abusive, the police should be called and the legal authorities (a favorite word of many in patriarchy movement) will step in and help her cool off in a lawful manner, so no one else gets hurt, sin gets dealt with, and hopefully she will grow and change of her own volition, which is really the only way people do grow and change.
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Sage, Welcome back to SSB. I don’t know, but it seems to me that obviously the women had done something wrong to begin with or else they wouldn’t be “disciplined,” right? (The article link is in plain sight and I saw that over 50 people clicked it to read more.) The point of this post was not to discuss “disobedient wives,” but how husbands treat wives and how Lori and her husband believe that men don’t need to talk, but should use physical restraint/force instead. Please stay on topic.
And for the record, I am very aware that abuse can go both ways. If a man is being physically abused, I’d encourage him to notify authorities just as I would if a man were abusing his wife.
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“Two wrongs do not make a right. “Love is patient, love is kind…” What is kind about dumping your wife in a snowbank in her nightie? What is patient about it? I could go on. If a wife is abusive, the police should be called and the legal authorities (a favorite word of many in patriarchy movement) will step in and help her cool off in a lawful manner, so no one else gets hurt, sin gets dealt with, and hopefully she will grow and change of her own volition, which is really the only way people do grow and change.”
As my husband once said, “spoken like someone who has never had a penis.” Did you know that every self reporting survey on domestic violence shows that we women report on ourselves that we commit domestic violence at the same level as men but if you look at law enforcement statistics that men are arrested 90% of the time. Somewhat like the statistics that we initiate 7 out of 10 divorces, yet are overwhelmingly granted custody of the children and also only pay around 5% of alimony. Equality under the law and all. To speak nothing of perceptions. It is a rigged game and men know this.
Ever seen the staged videos of a woman hitting and attacking a man on a sidewalk, people laugh and don’t intervene. Then later they reverse the roles and every one steps in and calls the authorities.
That husband knew he had three choices- go to jail, continue to have his wife beat him or pick her up and let her cool down. He made the right choice, the fact that you deny it shows that for men it’s a no win, always lose situation. His wife can say he’s gentle, loving, non abusive and did the right thing but this group is so far out there that he can still be wrong and abusive. You should lose all credibility, yet in today’s maddening world, people will still tune in and cheer you on. They’d rather hear lies that back what they believe than truth. They, like you, are blinded by their hatred and agenda.
The fact that you say you understand what you are obviously clueless about, well, I wonder how many good men you’ve thrown under the bus because they were facing situations that they have to handle completely different because they are men and are judged and treated much differently. The fact that you continue to throw them under the buss further demonstrates what I said before, you are bullies and have become exactly what you preach against, abusers.
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“every self reporting survey on domestic violence shows that we women report on ourselves that we commit domestic violence at the same level as men”
Self-reporting surveys on domestic violence are virtually useless, as abusive people under-report. Normal people who sometimes say something that hurts their partner, mostly inadvertently, would answer “have you ever said something hurtful?” with “yes”, which would lead to the conclusion that 100% of people are verbal abusers, and as many married men as women are. Seriously? In over 90% of marriages, men are stronger than women. Ask any 6-year old if he believe smaller, weaker children and bigger, stronger kids are equally likely to bully one another. Even a 6-year-old knows that only one possible answer makes sense.
“but if you look at law enforcement statistics that men are arrested 90% of the time. ”
Could it be that said statistics mean that self-reporting is inaccurate, or that men hurt the woman more? And did you actually include the arrests for women in jail for killing husbands (sometimes after years of being abused)?
“Somewhat like the statistics that we initiate 7 out of 10 divorces”
Logic.
If women are more likely to want a divorce, does it give evidence for:
a) Men are more likely to be unsatisfactory/ abusive partners, whom women do not regard as worth keeping?. OR
b) Women are as likely to be unsatisfactory/ abusive partners, whom men do not regard as worth keeping?.
“yet are overwhelmingly granted custody of the children”
Custody is usually given to the partner who have a history of looking after children, of having bonded to them. That is logical and usually in the best interest of the children. And the majority of men do not ask for main custody.
“also only pay around 5% of alimony.”
How often do men stay at home or does less paid hours as the main child carers while furthering the wife’s career? How often do women stay at home or does less paid hours as the main child carers while furthering the husband’s career? The truth is that it is women, not men, who are a lot poorer after divorce – yet they still divorce. Stupidity? As a rule, no – there is something about the conditions of the marriage that causes them to choose poverty above having the man they do.
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So, back in May sage was calling Julie Anne an attention whore. sage now calls Julie Anne dishonest. Methinks sage is projecting. One finger pointed at Julie Anne, three fingers pointed back at sage.
And speaking of lies, sage says “did you know that domestic violence is almost done equally by both men and women!” I’m given to understand that intimate partner violence is more like 95% male on female.
Still, if sage is the female s/he presents herself to be, I am reluctant to condemn her. It is not unusual for female victims of male abuse to come to the defense of their tormentors. It may (or may not) be that sage is herself a victim/target. I almost hope it is so because the other alternative is that she is taking up the cause of abusers.
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sage says, “if I’m throwing stuff at my husband and hitting him and all he does is carry me outside, snow or no snow, UNTIL I cool down and he is a loving husband, I figure I’m a lucky wife.”
Actually, if I were to hear that a woman had been throwing stuff at her husband and hitting him, I would wonder what he had done to make his wife need to defend herself. Men tend to think they are *entitled* to engage in aggressive behavior against their wives. Women, for the most part, must be *provoked* into aggressive behavior.
It simply is not acceptable for “Christians” like Lori Alexander and sage to defend the status quo where the phenomenon of male vs. female aggression is concerned.
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A wife acting in such a manner might indicate A) An unchecked mental issue or B) She feels powerless. There’s many ways to be a bully, and a man being an impassive, implacable stone is one way to dominate a relationship – I know, that is my tendency in my worst moments. A wife resorting to tantrums is hardly the way to resolve the conflict, but neither is responding in kind, or force escalation. Love doesn’t respond in kind. How exactly is eye for an eye biblical marriage advice in light of 1 Corinthians 13?
And I find it hard to believe, in the patriarchal society y’all (or if not you, Lori and Ken) seem to want, that we need to spend much time being thoughtful of protecting the men. Good lord. But thanks for the red herring.
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And speaking of sage, yes, I have seen the video where apparent but staged female on male violence was met with celebration. And do you know what? In a society where male on female violence is the norm, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will naturally tend to celebrate when a male appears to be receiving his comeuppance. I am only saying that an initial celebratory reaction is understandable, not that unprovoked female on male violence is acceptable.
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Well, hello, Sage. You don’t seem to have learned any new tricks while you were gone.
Well, for whatever it’s worth, I do have a penis (hoping that word doesn’t land me in moderation 😉 ) and Loura’s comment made a lot of sense to me. Having things thrown at me is assault, and if problems with my wife have escalated to that level, then it’s more than I can handle on my own. It’s right to call the police. It is not right for me assault the woman I claim to love, by manhandling or spanking her, as Lori and her husband seem to advocate.
And the source of your statistics, please?
It’s like you’re living in Topsy-Turvy Land… either that or the manosphere (which probably amounts to the same thing). In your view, men are the oppressed ones, women hold all the power, and Julie Anne and all of the commenters here are the bullies and abusers. To which I respond by asking, as I did back in May, “What colour is the sky in your world?”
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“Ever seen the staged videos of a woman hitting and attacking a man on a sidewalk, people laugh and don’t intervene.”
Which is exactly why I am teaching my son that not only is it not alright to hit a woman, but if a woman is hitting and attacking him, that is abuse as well and it is not okay. A lot of domestic violence prevention teaching is aimed at girls, and rightfully so. But, I think we also need to be teaching our boys that domestic violence against them is not something that they should deal with. It needs to be reported. Unfortunately, domestic violence against men is under reported.
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“and obedient to their husbands” Like a little girl sex slave, and/or canine. Jesus Christ never said this, but Jesus is not their Lord, Ariel Castro is.
“Lori sees herself as a Titus 2 woman for mentoring younger women. ” Sexually sadistic Lori is trying to create bottom kissing slaves for feeble sexually sadistic loser Ariel Castro centric men.
“But why would Lori Alexander use this image and title if she was not at least implicitly promoting wife spanking or men using physical force to control their wives?”
Lori is sexually sadistic, and so is her vile husband. Lori and her husband belong in the same group of people who look at porn of women and little girls being sexually tortured and sexually demeaned, and men that keep female sex slaves. It is women like Lori that look at pictures of little sex slave girls being sexually tortured by the very important M A N.
“This is NOT how it should be in a Christian marriage!” Why? Is it because Christian men are to feeble, selfish, primitive, stupid to have a conversation. And this is why I knew at seventeen I would rather be dead that married to a Christian man.
“No, instead we get perversity of every kind but if a man acted like John Wayne, he’d be put into prison.” I really think men like Ariel Castro turn Lori and her vile husband on. Many people who are not pure misogynist, and sexually sadistic consider whipping women and little girls perverted, but we can see it turns Lori and her sexually sadistic husband on.
So should Christian fathers and Christian husbands ever have their bottoms whipped? No, they deserve better. Why? Because they were lucky enough to be born male. My Christian father and Christian grandfathers deserved to have their bottoms whipped more then every woman and child in our family combined.
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My mother is the physically, emotionally, and psychologically abusive parent in my family. My father was the enabler. It does happen. Still, when I read an account of a husband picking up his wife and carrying her, I assure you there is an imbalance of physical power in the relationship. Men are generally stronger that women, though not always. My husband is almost a foot taller than me and is twice my weight. Restraining or beating me would be like stepping on an ant. (Fortunately, it’s not in his nature to be like that.)
So we have an account of a physically stronger man intimidating his wife into submission. This account is written under a post praising the spanking scene in McLintock. Julie Anne didn’t misrepresent anything. Domestic violence perps and their enablers are very sick people.
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“God has ordained the husband as the leader of the home.” Most of these men are bad, selfish, heartless leaders. If they were good leaders maybe their wives would not be so miserable. In Christendom leader is another word for self worshipping, big male baby dictator.
“However, since most women like to control their husbands, many marriages are filled with strife and arguing.” My mother acted just like these sexually sadistic cretins want wives to act, like a scared trapped, little girl sex slave, kissing my loser wife beating fathers bottom 24/7. Our home life was toxic, because of my Christian father.
I think Lori’s husband comes up with this sickness, and is pretending it is Lori, so he can say, see, this is coming from a woman. But, I have known some sexually sadistic Christian women, so it could be Lori.
“Men get sick and tired of being politically correct according to feminist’s laws and always having to talk everything to death.”
If he is to ignorant and feeble to have conversations he should not be married and have kids. As a sexually abused little girl growing up in Christendom I got physically and emotionally sick of Christian men’s self serving fetishes, man power-female submission.
“It was my appeal for her to consider God’s demands upon her life that helped her realize that indeed she loved her Lord Jesus and such love demanded her obedience to Him, and in turn her willful submission to her husband.”
Ken is so selfish and sexually sadistic, Jesus Christ NEVER said the word submission. He never told a woman to go home get married and kiss male bottom. The man that sexually terrorized me as a little girl, his favorite word was submission, and he would like Ken.
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Growing up in this kind of pure misogyny makes life twice as toxic for little girls living in sexual abuse. I learned that I had to kiss male bottom at all cost, that men were always right and always deserved to have their way. We girls were to be meek and submissive. God hated women and girls, and put little girl raping men in charge. I really believed as a little girl that god loved my rapist and hated me.
The sex that gave birth to me should be whipped by the sex that raped me as a little girl.
Whipping your wife. My mother’s body produced me, my father should have love and respect for the body that suffered through pregnancy and birth. His body didn’t do anything, he sat on his bottom and gloated about how the pain my mother had while giving birth gives him a thrill. My father deserved to have his bottom whipped, and my poor mother deserved to have her bottom kissed.
And this is what Christianity is attracting, sexually sadistic, sexually abusive men that want female slaves.
There is a good reason why when I read stories about Ariel Castro and Phillip Garrido they remind me of the Christian men I grew up with.
In the next twenty years horrific stories of Christian men using the bible to be sick to mothers and daughters is going to come out.
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Studies do NOT show that women are as likely to be abusers as men. Any time I have seen a claim of high rates of spousal abuse among women, the study has been deeply flawed. Often the definition of abuse is incredibly broad, including verbal abuse and defining it as raising one’s voice and the like. That happens occasionally in virtually every marriage. The real concern is with belittling, control, and physical abuse.
Studies do show that after a divorce, the man’s standard of living increases while the woman’s decreases substantially. More women receive physical custody of children than men. However, if a man and woman both fight for custody, the man is more likely to win. Alimony is less customary and more temporary than in the past. In my state, you can’t get it unless you have been married for at least twenty years. Generally the idea is to use alimony to improve someone’s earning power. A woman who put her husband through graduate school might get alimony while she attends school or a woman who has been a stay at home mom might get alimony while she gets job training. The reason women are much more likely to get alimony is because they are much more likely to be at an economic disadvantage at the end of a marriage.
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Studies show exactly that, here is a link to a TIME article that states exactly that. If that is not enough for you, click on the link of over 200 studies in the article that further demonstrate and show the same thing including studies down by the CDC, centers of health and many liberal universities both in the states and europe. Just because the facts do not fit your skewed narrative or agenda do not make them false. This article address every single false belief (or lie) on the subject that you all are furthering to spread.
http://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/
Some of you have been abused. I get that. You are acting out of hurt. But you can stay there and continue to be fed outright lies by people who have an agenda or you can accept both biblical truth and truth in general, forgive and move beyond. But this website is nothing but poison, evil and a site where feminism (not even egalitarianism, which some of the comments prove they are not what they claim to be) is their god. I don’t expect most to listen to me. There are far too many Kool Aid drinkers here, but for the hangers on, get out while you can. They will fill your mind with evil and falsehoods.
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I have a dream that one day churches will kick out those who abuse their families. Then, instead of the abused women being disgraced and told to work harder on submitting, they would feel emotional support. The men who abuse would have to make some choices–and we should offer them counseling and help if they choose to change. Meanwhile the children would see the truth and know that abuse is not accepted in the church.
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Serving Kids in Japan said:
Serving, I checked the rules, and you will not have to visit the SSB doghouse 🙂
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We should take seriously that abuse is not the servant leadership Jesus modeled for us, and it is not the reflection of a Christ-like life for a watching world or the next generation. Caught in the confusion of trying to figure out what was happening and make a difficult situation work (as I believed God required of me), I didn’t show my girls that abuse was unacceptable. Today one is a staunch feminist who left the church and the other is a self-righteous woman who says it is not her job to help others.
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Dear Sage,
I will speak a short post in love because Jesus is my Master, not any man nor woman. To use TIME Magazine as a reliable source concerning domestic abuse is like believing the Pope is an expert on capitalism and global warming. And your words are filled with rage and hatred against born again believers who are believing and following Jesus as their LORD and Savior for He comforted His Sheep all the while continuously warning of the wolves who have sharp teeth. We are called to share one another’s burdens as Christ followers, Sage, to pray and to encourage them in their faith in Jesus, not throw these weakened vessels into the lions’ den to be ravaged all over again and again. For shame, for shame on you.
There are volumes of abusive situations which are NOT reported by women due to the shame, the guilt, and the mentality of those such as yourself who would never believe the truth because many women are women haters themselves and fall hook, line and sinker for the charm and smooth words that come out of the mouths of male vain talkers. Many of these poor women are accused falsely of being “feminists” all the while being on the receiving end of abuse-physical, verbal, and emotional. And for those of us who have come out of abusive male leadership church systems where the sins of woman are brought to light and the wicked sins of men are kept hidden in secret, are stunned and appalled by the lack of compassion and empathy by people such as yourself.
We are called to ‘be the church’ twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, and minister to people when led by God, the Holy Spirit, ultimately pointing them to Jesus. Read the TIME article a little closer Sage, and you will read that Ms. Solo was drunk when she beat her sister and nephew. In my former church, the drunken male rapist was easily forgiven all the while his drunken female victim was portrayed as a ‘slut,’ with her and her family being shunned, lied about, and hated by male and female leadership. And the male rapist was back on stage in his “worship team music ministry” in no time, while the victim and her family left this church knowing they were betrayed.
Sage, why is your heart so hardened? We are called “living stones” in the Bible when we become born again of the Spirit of God. We are not called to throw the stones at people when they are hurting and desperately in need of help. Many ‘church’ people not only throw stones at the hurting, but hurl great boulders at them as well with absolutely no conscience what so ever. Maybe a little rock picking on the farm accompanied with lots of sweat, bloody hands, aching back and hips, and plenty of exhaustion and clean, fresh air, would help clear the mind in reminding you of what we are called to do. So thankful our LORD did not put you in my path when I was experiencing intense problems of living. Thank-you Jesus.
100pinkapples….I hear the cry of your heart and am praying for you, precious one. Jesus is ALWAYS there for you and will ALWAYS be there for you. So very, very sorry to read stories such as yours. God be with you always.
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There is no difference between egalitarianism and feminism. The definition of feminism is “the advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, economic, and social equality to men.”
I am a Christian and a feminist and I have a very happy egalitarian marriage. I am evil because I don’t think women are inferior to men, I support equal rights for men and women, and I don’t think that female submission is Biblical? I stand by my views.
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I am a Ph.D. sociologist just like Murray Strauss and unlike you, I have read those articles and others besides. My conclusions are different. But even Strauss admits that women are injured more frequently and more seriously by domestic violence than men.
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“But you can stay there and continue to be fed outright lies by people who have an agenda or you can accept both biblical truth and truth in general,”
Because, clearly, *you* don’t have an agenda, now do you? Sheesh. What a patronizing load of excrement your whole comment is.
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The “F” word (feminism) was bound to get hurled eventually.
Yesterday I googled “McLintock spanking scenes” to do some research on the topic. Yes, my toenails curled at the thought of what results the search would bring up, but I sacrificed my comfort for the sake of research for SSB. 🙂 That’s how I discovered there were two spanking scenes in the movie.
Anyway, there were a few websites that discussed the spanking meme in various media of that era including comic books, of all things. Some commenters suggested that spanking was the most erotic thing that the media could get away with back then, so they took full advantage of it. There were lots of varying views. There was one comment I can’t get out of my head:
“My sister was forcibly raped back in the ’60s. She reported it. She was raked over the coals by the police, the hospital and then by the prosecutor. She was accused of lying. She had left her husband (due to neglect and violent abuse) and was divorcing him. She had children, so was sexually experienced. That was held against her.
The man who raped her was acquitted and she was further accused of making a false report.
This did not discourage her from complaining when a divorce lawyer attacked her in his office. Seven other women came out and testified that he had raped them. In his office. His female secretary came to his defense. It went nowhere; the attorneys’ mutual protection society (Bar Association) protected him.”
http://www.retrospace.org/2008/10/they-spanked-women-in-old-days.html?showComment=1409071399186&m=1#c4552869806690776480
Some of us that were born from the 1970’s on really have no idea how the fruit of the women’s rights movement have benefited us. Things were not so peachy back in the “good ol’ days.” I would really like to know if the men who mistreated that woman in the above comment were church attenders.
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So, sage accuses Marsha of “acting out of hurt.” Sorry sage, but hurling accusations of bitterness will not even begin to work here as a thought stopper. Rather, anybody who cynically attempts to impose their views with sage’s brand of accusation, condemnation, divisiveness, slander and insult will, in my estimation, simply reveal themselves to be an abuser.
Still, I feel some modicum of compassion for sage. Something or somebody has obviously made her bitter–and in my view the problem with bitterness has more to do with the fault of the predators who give cause for bitterness than with the self-protective behaviors and attitudes of those they physically, emotionally and sometimes spiritually assault.
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Silly sage, fist fights are for kids.
If you can’t resolve conflicts without physical intervention-then you have a lot of growing up to do.
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When I hear Christians decry feminism, it really makes me sad. Christians are against the equal treatment of women? They think it’s okay for a man to earn more $$ than their female counterparts? They think discrimination is okay? Something is wrong with this picture. I also hate how people assume when you support women’s rights, it means you are pro __fill-in-the-blank___ evil agenda.
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Like and Love it to:
*Marsha
*BeenThereDoneThat
*Gary W
*christianagnostic
*Julie Anne
Can someone please show me where Jesus took those sinful women and manhandled them over His knee to “discipline and disciple” them into submission for the sake of the Gospel? And was not Jesus hated with a wicked passion by those in male leadership of His day, say the Pharisees, for the way in which He treated women while yet sinners?
Can not men and women minister to one another without the “lording it over” factor?
And why does the church here in the west rely so heavily upon Bible studies penned by men and women instead of just reading and studying the Bible for ourselves, verse upon verse? These people seem to be making quite a profit on their so called Bible study materials like we need them to tell us how to act and what to believe……wouldn’t that be akin to taking the LORD’S Name in vain? May be way out in the back acre on this one…….and yet….maybe not. God’s Word stands alone in my book.
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Katy,
I would go even further and suggest that, in looking to the Bible, we must be careful not to go beyond Jesus. Even if we look beyond Jesus to Paul, as so many of the trolls who come here insist on doing, there will be much quarreling. Paul himself warned of this:
For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:11-13 ESV)
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I once wrote this on my blog: https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/15-reasons-why-christian-domestic-discipline-is-a-terrible-anti-christian-idea/
The wise commenters of this blog is welcome to add their comments there, to improve the article.
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Sage, God help you.
[mod note: JA removed a few words ]
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Just a random thought. You know who Sage reminds me of? Stacy McDonald, the home schooling queen bee who dropped a steaming paper bag of rage on SSB last spring. She was defending her public defense of Doug Wilson’s buffoonery (when he compared Lourdes Torres to some kind of femme fatale vamp). I seem to remember Stacy blew in here in a fit of hatefulness, then when she got pushback and wasn’t able to dominate the posters into submission, perhaps like she’s used to doing, she parted with a shot along the lines of how we were all crazy and dangerous.
Sage and Stacy should sit down over coffee, they come across like twins.
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JA – Thanks for doing what I should’ve done above. That was a hateful comment on my part, kind of like kettle calling pot black. Thanks again.
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No problem, TD. I get that kind of anger. Sometimes I have to use creative ways to express it. Lol.
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I was interested in the man they quoted as wondering why, of all authority relationships, marriage is the only one where no forms of discipline are allowed. He is so stuck in his underlying assumptions that he can’t see the obvious implication: marriage is not an authority relationship! It is interesting how in the Bible it is mentioned that parents discipline children, that the government disciplines its people, etc. And yet never, anywhere in the Bible, is it even implied that husbands do or should discipline their wives. The Koran specifically states that husbands can beat their wives or deny them sex, but the Bible is silent– and in light of that, you’d think these people could find a way to question whether Paul, for instance, is actually setting up marriage as an authority relationship, or merely working with the fact that the first-century culture considered it such, while the Holy Spirit leads to a different way– the kingdom way of mutual
service and self-sacrifice.
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Katy, thank you for your thoughtful answer to Sage.
I admit, her words left me shaking, as much as shaking my head.
I have a reasonable husband, and yet the system of patriarchy left me powerless, and his “implacable stone” was enough to (I’m sorry to admit it) drive me to screaming frustration, a few times in the recent past, before we left the hyper-patriarchal church.
Sage sounds very much like the women (and men) in the patriarchy-lite church some members of my family are currently attending. Loving, reasonable, a little exasperated, condescending.
Because… the whole love/respect thing is the only biblical way to go, as everyone should well know.
“My husband loves me, this I know.
‘Cause the bible tells me so.
Even if he won’t act it out.
It’s my duty to respect the lout.
Yes, my husband loves me (3x)!
The bible tells me so.”
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JA, Sage reminds me of the women in that John Wayne movie, who went right along and seemed to applaud/think right and proper his behavior. I remember the widow who ends up marrying the sheriff — Mrs. McLintock is hiding from her husband, who is stalking after her, and she shouts, “Oh, Mr. McLintock! Mr. McLintock! In here!”
And the “woman of suspect virtue” who laughs at Maureen O’Hara in the trough. “Oh, Mrs. McLintock! You’re all wet!”
And all the people laughing and shouting and approving the woman’s comeuppance.
Of course, the movie showed her as being abusive and arrogant, so perhaps they were simply enjoying a little vicarious revenge.
You can take a lot of wind out of feminism’s sails by portraying (regardless of how much or little truth is in the portrayal) feminists as abusive and arrogant and shrill.
Not what I’d call a shining example of what to hold up as “the proper way to conduct a marriage” at all.
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The article and comments make it sound like wife-training is the way to go. Wives need training? Just like dogs.
Do husbands need training, too? Just wondering. Or are they endowed by their creator with innate wisdom and understanding, so that they always get it right?
No, wait, I remember now. When the husband doesn’t get it right, the wife can count it all joy that she is suffering for the sake of christ.
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I check her blog every once in a while and have often wondered if her husband writes many of her posts. It’s sick! You will just die at this one… We had a guest pastor at our church recently and he made a joke about husbands spanking their wife! My poor husband about died!!! He will never go to listen to him if he comes again!!
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Kristen (kwordgazer) said:
So much of that interpretation comes from Genesis 3:16: Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.
They cannot let go of that rule word. It governs how they treat wives. One little word.
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Refugee, did you make this up? I’m going to have to use it!
Funny and infuriating at the same time.
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refugee said:
That’s just it. The husbands in Patriarchy make it their business to oversee their wives’ behavior and from Lori’s article, it sounds like training women to behave is part of that. The assumption is that men don’t need training. How does that work? When does the husband get disciplined for treating his wife poorly? The default mode is for church leaders to defer to the heads of the home to get feedback on how the family is doing. The leaders trust the man to be taking his spiritual headship role responsibly, so if he claims his wife is misbehaving, guess whose side church leaders will be on?
Women in Patriarchy are very lonely individuals. There is no recourse for them. I thank God for the internet so that women who are abused can see that they are not alone and they can make changes and get support to get out of very abusive situations.
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“So much of that interpretation comes from Genesis 3:16: Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.
They cannot let go of that rule word. It governs how they treat wives. One little word.” – Julie Anne
The irony of using that verse is that this was to spell out the negative effects of sin, not to spell out the will of God.
For example, the surrounding passage say: “Satan will bruise the heel of the woman’s seed” in other words, Satan will harm people. This is not a command. God will not say on judgment day: “Wonderful, Satan, you fulfilled my command to harm humans! Your reward in heaven will be great!”
It also say: “You will eat your meals in sorrow” and “the earth will bring forth thorns.” This is not a command either. God will not say on judgment day: “Wonderful, you fulfilled my command to make mealtimes unpleasant for your husband, so he can eat his meals in sorrow! Your reward in heaven will be great!” or “Wonderful, you sowed thorns on the lands of farmers! I will reward you now!”
Likewise, God will not say to the man who ruled that he fulfilled a command. Instead, he acted according to all that is cursed and broken.
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I don’t understand why so many use that verse as foundational regarding the role of women and they also cling to the curse. I thought Jesus did away with the curse.
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You know, it’s crazy – I have to go to the comment section of an evil feminist egalitarian woman’s blog to get a darned explanation of that verse that makes total sense.
Thanks, truly. I’ll remember this one.
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You’re funny, govpappy. I don’t know if you can put me in those boxes yet (I’m pretty tall, you know).
The feminist word is loaded. So is the egalitarian word. I can’t get a good definition for either one and I’d just rather put my cares on following Jesus and His precepts than try to figure which box I fit in.
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Yes, JA, that little ditty was mine. Just sort of made it up off the top of my head. Not very polished, but you’re welcome to it.
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Here you go, all polished up and the words fitting to the tune:
Hubby loves me, this I know;
Patriarchy tells me so.
When he doesn’t live it out,
I must still respect the lout.
Yes, hubby loves me! (3x)
The “bible” tells me so.
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(p.s. our marriage is much improved since we left that hyper-patriarchal church)
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i.e. “Why talk when you can HIT?”
or “WOMAN, SUBMIT! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!!!”
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@JA
Because if you got ’em hanging between your legs, you Personally Benefit from it.
ANIMAL Dominance Display all the way.
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JA, Everybody:
The first time I described Christian Domestic Discipline(TM) to those outside the church, the response I got was consistent:
“Now THAT’s someone who’s into BDSM but won’t admit to it.”
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I don’t understand why so many use that verse as foundational regarding the role of women and they cling to the curse. I thought Jesus did away with the curse. ) quoted from above)
He did, hallelujah and thanks be to God for that !
The reason so many misuse this verse is simple, they also misuse ” women are not to teach over a man, have authority over a man) so they won’t go to Precept classes and get a strong Bible background as the ministry was started by a WOMAN. Kay Arthur is probably one of the best verse by verse Bible teachers of our day, but I can’t go to her classes at most fundie churches because I’m a man. The fact that she is many,many years my senior ( she is 81) and and has such knowledge to shares is irrelevant. The fact that she isn’t there and it’s DVD based with a moderator is irrelevant . I guess she is exercising authority over me by multi-media even though I can walk out, turn off the DVD or be even more “manly man ” and shoot the screen with my 45.
Recently I attended a SINGLES conference and 1 Tim 2:12 was also used to claim that a wife can’t be on top of her husband during marital relations as she would be asserting authority over her husband. That’s it , I’m adding a clause to my prenuptial agreement that we agree to avoid all complementarianism.
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After having watched a few of his movies, and after learning about his life–four failed marriages and numerous other love affairs, drunkenness, etc..–it baffles me about why so many Christians think of John Wayne as some paragon of manliness. He’s about as manly as Kim Kardashian is a paragon of Christian femininity!
(and I see Scott, shooting his TV with his .45, is apparently channeling Elvis Presley? Just kidding, Scott)
I’ve said this before, but maybe, just maybe, we ought to take a look at Roy and Dale if we want some examples of Christian masculinity and femininity in Hollywood? I don’t think Roy ever hit Dale, though I do fault him for taking Trigger instead of Dale to the Hubbell House (nice restaurant near Rochester MN) way back when.
If, of course, we can’t be persuaded to use “Christ” as our example of Biblical masculinity. But who would do a crazy thing like that?
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Scott said:
Ok, I actually have wondered about this wife-on-top thing before because of knowing how Patriarchy works, and especially after Doug Wilson’s famous quote about conquering women and woman surrendering and accepting (and he is talking about marital sex here). Well, all I’ve got to say is that it’s their loss. Any man who domineers so that a woman does not feel free to communicate and express herself verbally surely is not going to feel valued and free to express herself sexually. I suspect there will be sweet sexual payback for those husbands who dare to communicate, value, and cherish their wives. Just sayin’
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I honestly don’t see what the appeal would be for a passive sexual experience from the wife, as a man. I don’t feel particularly qualified or comfortable diving into analyzing this aspect of marriage, but certainly the patriarchal view of sex in marriage is just one point where the whole facade breaks down to reveal the ugliness inside. Seems to be doing little more than feeding and enabling the rather darker aspects of the male psyche, rather than encouraging Christ-like behavior or growth and maturity.
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Note here from the complementarian side of things; I don’t know who Scott is referring to, but the complementarian side of things does not (more or less) view The Handmaid’s Tale as prescriptive, or the wife’s role as totally passive. There may be some outliers out there who do, but Doug Wilson speaks of the wife’s right to enjoy her husband and endorses Ed Wheat’s Intended for Pleasure.
There are legitimate places for contention between the egalitarian and complementarian camps, but as a rule, treating one’s wife as a living love doll is not one of them. Sweet payback is nice!
I’m curious who Scott’s seminar was led by, though. Seems to me that the seminar ignored the obvious implications of 1 Cor. 7 and the mutual marital duty, and I’ll be happy to nudge people away from that group. For that matter, even if they hadn’t bobbled so badly what is and is not acceptable, it seems that discussing what sex positions are acceptable in a singles conference is violating Song of Songs’ principle not to awaken love before it’s ready. I would guess Scott heard some other things that were just plain wrong, too.
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