Bill Gothard, Homeschool Movement, IBLP and ATI, Kevin Swanson, Modesty and Purity Teachings, Patriarchal-Complementarian Movement, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Women and the Church

Kevin Swanson Defends Bill Gothard’s Sexual Harassment Charges While Publicly Trash Talks Blogs

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Kevin Swanson defends his friend, Bill Gothard against accusations of sexual harassment, while accusing Spiritual Sounding Board and Patheos.com blogs of dancing on the grave of Christian fundamentalism and Biblical Christianity.

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Last week, I was notified by a Twitter friend/follower that Kevin Swanson had referred to my blog in a recent podcast:

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Kevin Swanon, Generations Radio, Bill Gothard, ATI, Screen Shot 2014-02-22 at 12.05.16 PM
Source

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Really?  I promote pro-gay, pro-evolution on my blog?  Where?  He was naming my blog, SpiritualSoundingBoard.com?

Here was Kevin Swanson’s tweet that Chris had seen:

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Kevin Swanson, ATI, Generations Radio, Bill Gothard, Sex Abuse Screen Shot 2014-02-22 at 12.09.47 PM
Source

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If you haven’t heard the latest on Bill Gothard, this article should catch you up to speed:   Bill Gothard, Family Planning and Homeschooling Advocate, Accused of Sexually Harassing Young Women and Teen Girls

My assistant, Kathi, who helps me at the Spiritual Sounding Board Facebook page was coerced, manipulated,  volunteered to spend 6 – I mean SIX hours of time transcribing Mr. Swanson’s flapdoodle.  Earlier, I had transcribed only a couple of paragraphs and the verbosity with which Swanson was able to fit within 2 seconds of airtime was staggering.  Give that woman a raise already!

It is peculiar that Mr. Swanson publicly named two sites:  SpiritualSoundingBoard.com and Patheo.com in his ranting.  Those who are familiar with Patheos.com know it is a large network of blogs beneath the umbrella of Patheos.com.  At Patheos.com, you will find an assortment religious bloggers:  Christian, Jewish, Catholic, Mormon and even atheist bloggers.  But interestingly, Mr. Swanson does not identify a specific blogger at Patheos.com.  But what does he say about my blog and this mysterious non-named Patheos blog?

Note:  Unless specifically noted, Kevin Swanson is talking. Notation is made when Steve Vaughn enters the conversation.  “KB,” who transcribed the document, contributed her commentary in pink.  Seriously, if you’re going to transcribe for 6 hours, you need an outlet.  As I was reading it, I obviously couldn’t keep quiet, so my editorial comments are in green.  I’ve only included the comments referring to the blog, but be sure to read the transcript or listen to the podcast as Swanson defends Gothard and blasts Spiritual Sounding Board and Patheos.com.  The transcription begins below:

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 Starting at the 6:00 mark:

You have this kind of thing happening a lot when people are ultimately ignoring the laws of God but taking on their own rules and regulations. Well, all that said, we’re gonna to talk about what is happening right now with fundamentalism, what is happening right now with the homeschooling movement, and precisely what is happening right now with Bill Gothard.

Okay. There’s [sic] some stories right now on Patheos.com, SpritualSoundingBoard.com, which by the way are the apostatizing websites that are dancing on the grave of the old Christian west and certainly anything related to fundamentalism or anything relating to Biblical Christianity. They love it. They love it when they begin to see cracks in fundamentalism.

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What is the Christian west, anyway?  Are we talking cowboys or what?  Sure, you can send me the Finding-Cracks-in-Fundamentalism t-shirt.   The fundamentalism that I’ve seen does not match up with the Christian conduct and character exemplified by Christ in Scripture.  

Now, friends, right now Patheos and Spiritual Sounding Board are the apostatizing websites working hard to drive another 10% out of the organized historical, Biblical churches to a pro-homosexual, pro-socialist, pro-evolution, pro-atheist agenda. I mean, they’re just so excited if they can…they’re sort of like the aprostalites <Made up word #4> of the left you know.

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Actually, I consider Spiritual Sounding Board to be like the pooper scooper of Fundamentalist Pharisee-like crap of religious tyrants, but whatever, Mr. Swanson.

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Can we get more to apostatize from the Biblical, spiritual faith, and they’re somewhat successful

-10:00-

mainly because whatever is out there that cloaks itself as a fundamentalist faith often times isn’t that strong anyway. So, anyway. Patheos and Spiritual Sounding Board are dancing on the grave of Bill Gothard and the whole A.T.I. thing right now. This is what’s happened. And the rumors on the street is that there was more sexual abuse of some sort. But here is the deal. As Christians we ought to be very careful when we see these things on public websites, new sites, presenting this information.

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Yea, Mr. Swanson, because when 34 women come forward with their personal testimonies telling us that this “man of God” and Christian leader who has led countless families to have “character first,” we need to be careful about “rumors.”  To heck with the idea that Gothard is the head honcho of his organization and so there is no place for young women to climb the hierarchical ladder to complain.  

But let’s back up a bit.  He claims I’ve been (SSB) dancing on the grave of Bill Gothard and ATI, of Biblical Christianity, etc.  Did he even realize that I have not posted ONE story on Gothard until this one?  And this article is really not so much about Gothard as much as it is about Mr. Swanson and his foolishness.  I’ll get to Gothard on my blog soon enough.  There are already quite a few articles currently published in the blogosphere.  But right now, I’m calling out Mr. Swanson for his behavior as a Christian homeschool leader AND pastor in siding with another Christian patriarchal leader rather than dismissing the personal testimonies of nearly three dozen women.  

-10:30-

We ought to demand two or three witnesses in a proper church court or a proper civil court. That ought to be important to us. And, uh. You know. But Patheos and Sounding Board doesn’t really care that much about it. They just get very excited about the fact that there may be some problem, some compromise, in the life of a spiritual leader. And if they can find that, they kind find the compromise, the moral compromise in the life of a leader, they get very excited because now they know that they can toss out everything that guy ever said about God,

 

-11:00-

Jesus, honoring mothers and fathers, you know, etc., etc. First of all, how do you get a man who is running a parachurch organization to a proper church court?  What church court?  Who overseas the man?  Do you think Mr. Gothard would sit beneath a church court when they are not “over” him?   So, if that be the case, you know, they can throw all that out and they can do whatever they want. And how fun that can be, you know. I mean, you know. We don’t have to worry about this adultery thing anymore, don’t have to worry about homosexuality, don’t have to worry about incest, don’t have to worry about pedophilia, we can just celebrate. <Yes. ALL of the writers on Patheos and of course, SSB, is excited about pedophilia, incest and adultery!> You know, I mean we’re free from anything that this Christian leader ever said because there may be some moral compromise in his life. And that’s why

-11:30-

they get so excited, Steve, I think.

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Yea, every morning I am excited to share yet another story of Christian leader’s moral failure.  I think NOT.   No, how about this – – if Church leaders would appropriately deal with sin among other church leaders,  blogs like mine wouldn’t need to call them out.  But when church leaders remain SILENT about abusive leaders like Gothard, Phillips, etc, that is when it causes mass confusion.  

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“Silence in response to abuse declares victims to be worthless & builds walls of protection around perpetrators.”  ~Boz Tchividjian

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SV: <Clearly the village idiot. Sure boss, whatever you say!> Yeah, and that’s. They want to be free from God. That’s why they’re worshiping themselves, or the whole humanist religion. Because they’ve been seeking to be free from God all their lives. And they can’t get free of Him. And it just, it’s like a cockroach trying to get away from the light to get into darkness. And they’ve found that they can’t get away from the light. And anytime that they can find any kind of darkness within the fundamentalist movement

-12:00-

SV (cont.): then they want to go hide there.

If you’d like to read more of the same drivel and appreciate KB’s hard work, click here.  KB nor I are responsible for the amount of time that will be wasted by reading this stuff.  Do so at your own risk.  Or . . . .you can tune in here.  It might make good background noise while vacuuming.

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The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

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By the way, if you do happen to read/listen to enough of the podcast, after hearing the word apostasy and the many odd variations of the word, I think you might agree with Kathi and me that Kevin Swanson thinks  . . . . .

this is the dawning of the age of Apostasy, age of Apostasy . . . . . . . . APOSTASY!!!!

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463 thoughts on “Kevin Swanson Defends Bill Gothard’s Sexual Harassment Charges While Publicly Trash Talks Blogs”

  1. I just finished watching “Frozen.” I want to watch it again and think in the meanwhile about it. It was actually a powerful message concerning rejection, fear, and the power of love to transform and overcome the heart. I strongly identified with those themes and became teary at the end. The songs were beautiful, and as water is generally wet, I didn’t have any expectation that they would be correct in terms of Scripture. I don’t know what on earth people are talking about when they say that this is a movie that promotes homosexuality. Maybe for the intensely paranoid?

    I bet that the post Bill Gothard crowd will get quite a lot out of it. When everything in your life is spiritualized and given some heavy moral tag, overcoming that baggage is definitely something that a person should “let go.” (The primary song of the protagonist who sings about her freedom from pretense and shame about who she was is titled, “Let it go.”)

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  2. “Clearly “church leadership” is found in the Bible (those specific words may not be used, but the Bible wasn’t written in English, so how could they be? Neither is the word “trinity”, which has long been accepted as not only biblical, but necessary for orthodoxy). The real issue is, “Who is/are the leader/leaders of the church, and how does he/they lead?”

    TIA, The are “servants”. Paul even described himself as an “underrower” which denotes the lowest level of slave ship rower.

    The problem is the word leader is thought of in the West in the Greek sense of hierarchy—- exactly what Christ warned against: Don’t be like the Gentiles. Words mean things. Back in the early 90’s Ken Blanchard piloted a training program in megas and coined the term “servant leader” to try and soften the image of hierarchical leadership. The truth is we have no mediator. ALL believers if real believers have anointing (1 John) and what you are reading in the NT concerning functions were often quite temporal. You might “pastor” someone but they grow more mature spiritually than you. A true pastor would be thrilled. They and elders, etc would never want authority or power over people. They were there to serve them like Jesus. In fact, if you did a timeline on church building in the NT, you might be shocked at how little time they spent at a new church before moving on. New baby believers were left to fend for themselves. What an idea. The Holy Spirit as guide and counselor. Gee. What a revelation.

    The institutional church that grew and spread West looks nothing like what Jesus Christ intended for His Body. (Not saying there are no real believers just focusing on the institution we call “church”)

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  3. “Christ Himself acknowledges the existence of legitimate authorities and commands His disciples to obey them. Likewise, Peter and the author of Hebrews say similar things. What Jesus (and the apostles) condemned was leaders who taught their own traditions instead of God’s Word, and leaders who were hypocritical.”

    TIA, Do you realize that by saying what you said above means you MUST consider the founding of America a sin? It also means you must obey Obama.

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  4. “But none of that denies the fact that there are real leaders, who lead, not by domination (more like the military or business world), but as kind and loving shepherds, by example and with great care.”

    TIA, It is helpful to not think in terms of titles but as examples of servants. They don’t “lead” in the sense you think. And a huge problem we have is people take metaphors WAAAAAY too far. Pastor/Shepherd. Congregation/Sheep. But wait, tjhe pastor is a sheep, too. Perhaps a higher level sheep? Nope, that cannot be true as we are all priests. And quite frankly ALL of us pastor at some point in our lives if we are true believers who have children and love others in the body.

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  5. “The very fact that you’re commenting here shows that you believe in “church leadership.” If not, why are you trying to “lead” people with your comments?”

    TIA, You cannot be serious, can you? Amos is trying to “lead” us with his comments? This says more about you than him. You are eat up with the leader/follower paradigm.

    Perhaps Amos is trying to influence, share, persuade, etc. I see it more that he is trying to get me to think. This does not mean I would ever be an Amos follower. In fact, Amos would be appalled because he GETS IT. It is a road paved to hell and especially bad for the person who wants “leadership” in the Body.

    But then I don’t have your paradigm

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  6. “TIA, Do you realize that by saying what you said above means you MUST consider the founding of America a sin? It also means you must obey Obama.”

    No it doesn’t. I was simply saying that Jesus told His disciples to obey certain authorities. You can make what you of it, but He said it.

    “1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;” (Matt. 23:1-3)

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  7. Oh My TIA. Me thinks you have misunderstood your proof text. See if this makes more sense:

    Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

    5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

    8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

    13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [b]

    15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

    16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

    23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

    25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

    27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

    29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

    33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

    “Woe to you” is a clue. :o)

    So basically you are saying that Jesus was telling us to do what pastors and elders SAY but not to do what they do. I don’t suppose that would be a clue for us they are not the real thing? Any way, what do you do with the Holy Spirit?

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  8. “TIA, They are “servants”. Paul even described himself as an “underrower” which denotes the lowest level of slave ship rower.”

    Sure, I agree.

    “The problem is the word leader is thought of in the West in the Greek sense of hierarchy—- exactly what Christ warned against: Don’t be like the Gentiles. Words mean things.”

    This is the heart of the problem. Maybe it would help if I include one of the passages I referenced.

    “25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matt. 20:25-28)

    You are using a different definition of “leader”/”leadership”/”lead” than I am. I understand that “leader”/”leadership”/”lead” have been misused, but that doesn’t mean we have to throw out the idea. The following are from Merriam-Webster.com:

    Leader
    a person who leads: as
    a : guide, conductor

    Leadership
    1: the office or position of a leader
    2: capacity to lead
    3: the act or an instance of leading

    Lead
    a : to guide on a way especially by going in advance
    b : to direct on a course or in a direction
    c : to serve as a channel for

    Are you really saying that Christ and the apostles said not to do any of those things? Did Christ not lead His disciples? What about Heb. 13:7?

    7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

    “The truth is we have no mediator….You might “pastor” someone but they grow more mature spiritually than you. A true pastor would be thrilled. They and elders, etc would never want authority or power over people. They were there to serve them like Jesus.”

    Agreed. But that says nothing one way or another about leadership.

    “In fact, if you did a timeline on church building in the NT, you might be shocked at how little time they spent at a new church before moving on. New baby believers were left to fend for themselves. What an idea. The Holy Spirit as guide and counselor.”

    True, and very helpful. But most NT churches included Jews who were already quite familiar with the scriptures. They were already part of the church (OT assembly) before the church (NT assembly) was formed. The new thing was realizing that their Messiah had come and that Jews and Gentiles were united into one body. But they weren’t starting from scratch (eg. Acts. 19:1-10).

    “The institutional church that grew and spread West looks nothing like what Jesus Christ intended for His Body.”

    Yes, there is much corruption. Yes, “the institutional church” has by and large turned from sound doctrine and practice. But Christ has been and is still building His church. Just as there were faithful believers in the first century (Zechariah & Elisabeth, Joseph & Mary, Simeon, Anna, Peter, Nathaniel, etc.), God still has a faithful remnant today.

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  9. “Perhaps Amos is trying to influence, share, persuade, etc.”

    That’s what “lead” means. Just like a literal shepherd leads his sheep. He tries to guide them, influence them, persuade them. Would you call a shepherd beating his sheep “leading”? I sure wouldn’t!

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  10. “So basically you are saying that Jesus was telling us to do what pastors and elders SAY but not to do what they do. I don’t suppose that would be a clue for us they are not the real thing? Any way, what do you do with the Holy Spirit?”

    Lydia,

    Jesus told His disciples to obey the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. The fact that He immediately follows that by condemning them as hypocrites doesn’t negate His clear command to obey them. To put it in a modern context, you shouldn’t say, “False cult leader/abusive pastor teaches, ‘You shall not murder’, but since he is a hypocrite, I don’t have to obey him, and it’s okay if I murder.”

    So, yes, I am saying that we need to obey pastors and elders when they teach the truth from the Word of God. The fact that they may be hypocrites or false teachers doesn’t mean that mean that we can ignore everything they say.

    Of course, we’re in a very different situation than in NT times, because at that time the majority of people couldn’t read. They needed teachers, because God’s Word was inaccessible to them apart from someone teaching them. Of course we are still dependent on teachers and scribes to some extent, because we don’t have the original scriptures and even if we did, we would need a teacher to learn the biblical languages. For day to day practice, though, we have the great advantage of being able to read the Scriptures for ourselves, and as you point out, the Holy Spirit to teach us (and one of the ways He teaches us is through other believers, aka teachers, whether in a “church” or on a blog).

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  11. TIA, you are not understanding what the first century audience would have understood it as used in scripture for example in Hebrews. It is not the same meaning we use today. This is part of the biggest problem out there. Words are redefined and used wrongly. Not to mention translated very badly!

    Such is the problem with many words such as grace, sovereign, etc. In fact, use the word “servant” and watch your entire paradigm change. Nothing glamorous about being a servant is there? It is lowly. But leader? It has a whole other feel to it and you won’t sell me that it doesn’t. Not buying. I was there when Blanchard introduced servant leader in the pilot. It was for one reason only. To soften the heirarchical paradigm. A bait and switch.

    ( The word leader in the book of Hebrews would have been understood by the audience as “those who have gone before” as in sanctification. being in the trenches type of thing. NOthing to do with authority at all)

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  12. Just to be clear, I agree with you and Amos that people aren’t to take on titles such as “Pastor”, “Leader”, “Teacher”, etc. as Jesus clearly says near the beginning of Matthew 23. However, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t pastor, lead, teach, etc. (and obviously that means some people are being fed, led, and ed[ucated]). The issue has to do with the fact that these things should be mutual, not domineering.

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  13. “So, yes, I am saying that we need to obey pastors and elders when they teach the truth from the Word of God”

    You just negated everything else you wrote. Think about it. How would you know they were teaching the truth unless you were being a Berean?

    You seem to be mapping the Scribes and Pharisees to what you think are equivalent “positions” in the Body of Christ post resurrection. I think that is a big mistake and leads you in a very wrong direction. Do you understand what the Pharisees were? If I am reading you right in your understanding, there would have been no need for the OT Prophets who were outside the priesthood..

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  14. “Of course we are still dependent on teachers and scribes to some extent, because we don’t have the original scriptures and even if we did, we would need a teacher to learn the biblical languages. For day to day practice, though, we have the great advantage of being able to read the Scriptures for ourselves, and as you point out, the Holy Spirit to teach us (and one of the ways He teaches us is through other believers, aka teachers, whether in a “church” or on a blog).”

    TIA, You can now teach yourself Greek for free. Katherine Bushnell learned both Greek and Hebrew on her own long before the internet.
    \
    A good teacher wants those they are teaching to move on from them and even surpass them in understanding. They would also want them to check every word they teach. . I worry about long term Christians who think they are “under” humans for teaching, pastoring, etc. They seem to crave milk all their lives. Never maturing.

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  15. “However, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t pastor, lead, teach, etc. (and obviously that means some people are being fed, led, and ed[ucated]). The issue has to do with the fact that these things should be mutual, not domineering”

    Both Amos and I have said several times on thsi blog those are “doing” words. They are functions within the Body and are temporal. They are functions not offices. There is no “office” in the Greek.

    What concerns me are folks who buy into the “leadership” paradigm seem to constantly looking for “good” pastors/teachers/elders. And they totally misunderstand the entire concept of service to others. Lowly servants. Not leaders. But many who buy into that concept are putting their faith in man not Christ.

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  16. Lydia,

    I really think we’re saying the same thing from different perspectives.

    Are you saying that a servant can’t be a leader? What about Jesus Christ?

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  17. At the assembly where I fellowship, we have “leaders” for the various ministries. Someone “leads” the nursing home ministry. Someone else “leads” the kid’s club ministry. I know that there are no shortages of cases where “leaders” are really just dictators who boss people around, but that is not necessarily the case. The “leaders” I am talking about are servants. In some cases, they’re the only ones doing the work, so they certainly aren’t bossing anyone around! But they are guiding, conducting, etc. (ie. “leading”) those ministries.

    Again, I get where you’re coming from if your experience has been with abusive “leaders.” The fact of the matter is that we should all be servants and leaders in different ways at different times and in different contexts.

    Julie Anne is a leader with her blog here. She guides and directs the conversation here (ie. leads) by choosing what to post and moderating comments. She allows quite a wide range of comments and lets us go off on all kinds of side issues (like this conversation), but the fact is that this isn’t a chaotic free-for-all. If you really don’t want anybody leading, then Julie Anne should open up administrator privileges to anyone and everyone. Kevin Swanson, Bill Gothard, Tony Miano, etc. should be able to come and delete posts/comments and post there own stuff as they see fit if there really is no one in charge.

    It is not a question of whether or not there will be leaders (there will be). The issue is what kind of leaders there will be. How will they lead? Will they lead like Christ, who is caring and gentle (but also judged people and pronounced woes when appropriate), or will they lead by deception and control and take advantage of the flock?

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  18. “They are functions within the Body and are temporal.”

    Agreed. The couple that “leads” the nursing home ministry are not leaders in every area. They are leading only as much and as long as they are serving/doing the work.

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  19. r”eally think we’re saying the same thing from different perspectives.”

    I think we are saying two completely different things

    “Are you saying that a servant can’t be a leader? What about Jesus Christ?”

    Since Jesus was God in the flesh, which human “leader” would you like to compare him to concerning leadership? I absolutely love the fact that Jesus called us His “Friends”, too.

    This is too much for me to to get into now.

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  20. “Julie Anne is a leader with her blog here. She guides and directs the conversation here (ie. leads) by choosing what to post and moderating comments”

    I do not agree your analogy. JA OWNS this blog. And because she OWNS it, she call the shots on how it operates.

    Who owns the church?

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  21. TIA

    Hmmm? “Julie Anne is a leader with her blog here.”

    Could also be…
    Julie Anne is a SERVANT with her blog here.

    Julie Anne

    If you decide to accept this mission – Mission Impossible… 😉

    Which one do you choose? Leader? Or Servant? Or…???

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  22. Hi again TIA – Cindy K

    Interesting conversation going on – Are WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Church, His Body, His Sheep, You and Me, having any fun yet? 😉

    It always amazes me how WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Church, You and Me, can read the same Bible, the same verses, and WE, His sheep, see them so differently. And use them so differently. 😉

    You both talk about “Leaders” “Biblical Leadership” “Church Leadership”

    So, let me ask you TIA, – Cindy…

    Who is YOUR “Leader?”

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  23. Lydia

    You ask…
    “Who owns the church?”

    I know… I know… Can I answer… Please… Please… Pretty Please…

    Cause I know who owns me… Who purchased me with His Blood…

    Like

  24. Lydia

    Seems – “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” ??? 😉

    Seems – It depends on what the meaning of the word “CHURCH” is.

    Those darn semantics…

    What ever will WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Disciples, do with…
    “the scientific study of the meaning of words?

    Like

  25. TIA – Cindy K

    Cindy writes @ MARCH 18, 2014 @ 10:20 AM…
    “I only stated that there was a Biblical example of leadership,”
    “If I would gladly join a good church with a female pastor”

    TIA writes and asks @ MARCH 18, 2014 @ 11:48 AM…
    “The real issue is, “Who is/are the leader/leaders of “the church,”
    and how does he/they lead?”

    Seems – “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” ??? 😉

    Seems – It depends on what the meaning of the word “CHURCH” is.

    Today, when I hear the word “CHURCH” I NO longer think, or see – The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls church. A building with a steeple where people “Go To Church.” Join a Church, Give money to a Church. Nor do I see, A Paid professional Pastor, in a Pulpit, Preaching, to People, in Pews.
    Because NONE of that is in the Bible. 🙂

    That’s what the world, unbelievers, think when they hear “Church.” – Yes? Because, WE, His Ekklesia, His Body, keep telling people “Go to Church.” But, Go To Church, Join a Church, Today’s pastor/leader, is NOT in the Bible.
    And, WE, His Body, His Sheep, have deceived the world, the unbelievers.

    Today, when I hear the word “CHURCH” I like to think about, and see…
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – You and Me… Because…
    Jesus, He is the head of The Body, The Church, The Body, The Church, etc…

    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – The Redeemed of the Lord
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – Kings and Priest unto God
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – His Bride
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – His Servants
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – His sons
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – His Ambassadors
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – His Disciples
    WE, His Body, His Church – ARE – You and Me

    Jesus taught His Disciples, His Church, NOT to be called Teacher/Leaders…
    For you have “ONE” Teacher/Leader – The Christ Mat 23:8-10 NASB.

    And, “If” those “Led” by the Spirit are the sons of God? Rom 8:14.
    And, “If” “They shall be ALL taught of God”. John 6:45

    And, “If” Amos, “IS”, one of His Church, one of His Body,…
    And desires to be one of His Disciples, one of His Bride, one of His Kings and Priests, one of His Ambassadors, one of His Servants, one of His sons…

    Who is MY “Leader?” Who is MY Teacher?

    And, “If” you, TIA, Cindy, “ARE” one of His Church, one of His Body,…
    And desire to be one of His Disciples, one of His Bride, one of His Kings and Priests, one of His Ambassadors, one of His Servants, one of His sons…

    Who is YOUR “Leader?” Who is YOUR Teacher? Who is YOUR husband?

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  26. “Who owns the church?”
    “Who is MY “Leader?” Who is MY Teacher?”
    “For you have “ONE” Teacher/Leader – The Christ Mat 23:8-10 NASB”

    Christ. And He gave His church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers (Eph. 4:11). Why are you denying this? Did James include an extra “m” in James 3:1? Should it read, “Not []any of you should become teachers”? Why did Peter describe “false teachers” in 2 Pet. 2:1? Shouldn’t he have just said “teachers”? Aren’t all teachers false in your view?

    Again, I get where you’re coming from, but your viewpoint isn’t logically consistent. What do you call your male parent? Is “father” a taboo word, per Jesus in Matt. 23:9? What do you call someone you learn something from? Is “teacher” a taboo word, per Jesus in Matt. 23:8? Are those words shibboleths? Was he really telling His disciples that they can’t acknowledge anyone as their male parent or someone from whom they have learned things? Or was he making a different point?

    Honestly, I get what you’re saying, and I agree with the sentiments, but the way you’re expressing it seems legalistic. If someone leads, they are a leader. If someone teaches, they are a teacher. That doesn’t mean we have to give them official titles and positions, but it also doesn’t mean we have to deny the plain meaning of words.

    “Which one do you choose? Leader? Or Servant? Or…???”

    You are presenting a false dichotomy. Read again my description of those who “lead” a nursing home ministry. They’re the (only) ones doing it. There is no (necessary) conflict between leading and serving. Is Christ not both a leader and a servant? Are we not to be like Him?

    “Interesting conversation going on – Are WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Church, His Body, His Sheep, You and Me, having any fun yet? ;-)”

    Yes, indeed we are. I apologize in advance if what I’ve written comes across as harsh. It certainly isn’t intended that way, but I know I’m still quite rough around the edges and often don’t express things in the best way possible. I pray that the Lord would teach us and guide us into all truth.

    Like

  27. Lydia and Amos,

    I’ve been thinking about this more. I really think that we agree, but somehow this conversation makes it appear that we disagree. Maybe the following will help.

    “Jesus taught His Disciples, His Church, NOT to be called Teacher/Leaders…
    For you have “ONE” Teacher/Leader – The Christ Mat 23:8-10 NASB”
    “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11)

    Yes, I do understand that Eph. 4 can be understood (at least in some ways) to apply only to the first century. However, whatever you believe about the continuance of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, what is clear is that there were pastors and teacher in the first century church. And those pastors and teachers were given by Christ Himself! Obviously He is (or at the very least, was) not against there being pastors and teachers in the church. He put them there Himself!

    Also, Jesus’ teaching to His disciples in Matt. 23 was not that they should not be teachers or leaders, but that they should not be *called* “Teacher” or “Leader”. That is an important distinction, which makes perfect sense considering the context of false religious leaders of that day.

    So, I think the disconnect here has been that you are talking about titles/positions and I am talking about actions/service. I agree with you that we shouldn’t call anyone “Teacher”, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t teachers in the church. I agree with you that we shouldn’t call anyone “Leader”, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t leaders in the church. The real teachers and leaders in Christ’s church may not be those who are called “Teacher” and “Leader”, but there are teachers and leaders nonetheless.

    BTW, I think I’ve expressed this before, but let me say again that I really appreciate both of you commenting here. Thanks.

    Like

  28. “So, I think the disconnect here has been that you are talking about titles/positions and I am talking about actions/service.”

    That is weird. I think YOU were talking titles/positions. I have maintained for quite a while they functions,…verb words, doing words. And doing them makes one a servant to others. Not their leader.

    I have a hard time getting my head around the concept grown adults having “spiritual” leaders for the rest if their lives. I find that a debilitating and stunting way to approach growing in Holiness. But that seems to be the institutional church model. And one reason we see so many congregations not growing past their pastor. It is a crying shame. But that concept of a human spiritual leader is alive and well out there.

    Sometimes that concept can be amusing such as when a 35 year old “pastors” the 60 year olds who really end up pastoring him because they are seasoned believers who live in the real world where the young pastor has come from seminary and maybe had a few staff jobs somewhere but very little real world experience. So when one insists on “leader” when it is really “servant”, you will find me chiming in that the concept of “leader” in the modern understanding of the word is far from the concept of SERVANT.

    There is no law we have to agree. I happen to think my view is modeled in the NT and very healthy for the Body of Christ where all believers are priests and some have giftings to serve the Body. It sure is not glamorous and it does not make merchandise of people so it is not real popular.

    Like

  29. “Sometimes that concept can be amusing such as when a 35 year old “pastors” the 60 year olds who really end up pastoring him because they are seasoned believers who live in the real world where the young pastor has come from seminary and maybe had a few staff jobs somewhere but very little real world experience.”

    Yes. So very true.

    As you say, sadly many “church members” are dependent on their “pastor” in a very unhealthy way. They are babes in Christ and never grow up. And many “pastors” like it that way because it keeps them in a job.

    I still remember when I was in university and one Sunday morning I was listening to the pastor (who was a good man, very knowledgeable in the scriptures and also very helpful in caring for the flock in practical ways). Anyway, as I was listening to him, I was thinking to myself, “Why does he speak every Sunday? I’ve been learning some things from God’s Word that would be good to share with everyone, but there isn’t an opportunity for that.”

    A few years later, I came across “assemblies” where there is no “pastor” and believers are free to exercise their gifts. They aren’t perfect (there is at times a fascination with speculative dispensational eschatology), but for the most part there is good, healthy growth (I see this in my own life as well as others in the fellowship). Because there is no “pastor”, that frees up a lot of money to go to the Lord’s servants across the country and around the world.

    Like

  30. TIA

    Thanks when you write @ MARCH 19, 2014 @ 11:45 AM…
    “I apologize in advance if what I’ve written comes across as harsh.”

    I also “apologize in advance if what I’ve written comes across as harsh.”

    I enjoy, appreciate, this discussion with you, Cindy K, and others – Who a agree or dis-agree. – These are important and sensitive topices for WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Church, His Sheep, You and Me…

    And, I would like to believe there is a value in these conversations. 😉

    Mal 3:16 KJV
    Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
    and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
    and a book of remembrance was written before him
    for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

    Like

  31. TIA – Cindy K

    I NO longer desire to be A Leader, A Spiritual Leader, A Church Leader.
    Could never figure out how to get folks to follow me – without complaining. 😉
    So – Please – Do NOT follow me – I’m lost too… 😉

    But – Hopefully. By challenging the status quo, folks will question WHAT they believe and WHY they believe. By challengeing what I see as, Commandments of Men, Doctrines of Men, Philosophies of Men, that today’s “Church Leadership” say is “Biblical” – BUT – Is NOT in the Bible. – Like “Church Leadership” – And become the “Traditions of men” that *Make Void* the Word of God, that Jesus warned WE, His Sheep, about in Mark 7:13. The folks, who want to be one of “His Disciples,” one of “His Sheep,” and NOT the sheep of a Mere Fallible Human shepherd, will become curious and check the Bible out for themselves about *The “ONE” Shepherd,* that does NOT cause His Sheep to go astray…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  32. Amos,

    Thanks for your kind reply. I know that I get out of hand at times, so thanks for being patient with me. The Lord still has a lot of work to do. 🙂

    It made me think of a funny story. A relative of someone I know received a harsh letter from her sister who lived in another country. She wrote a reply and mailed it off. When her sister opened it up, there was just a single sheet with the word “tapioca” written on it. She was upset and puzzled, and asked her (other) sister (whom she lived with), “What does that mean?” Her sister just laughed, and said, “Proverbs 15:1.”

    “And, I would like to believe there is a value in these conversations.”

    Yes, indeed. Your quoting Mal. 3:16 reminds me of the book “3:16” by Donald Knuth. Knuth is a computer scientist, but he wrote this book commenting on every 3:16 verse in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation (a few of the shorter books don’t have a 3:16). As part of the project, he commissioned world class calligraphers to render each text.

    He’s a fascinating fellow. He developed the original computer program for formatting mathematical text in publications (Tex). He also once spent months (or was it years?) determining the precise value of a mathematical constant for a book he was writing when he discovered that all previous books only had approximations.

    I heard him speak once. They also had a display of all the original calligraphy (as well as some of the sketches and rejected versions) from the 3:16 book. Amazing! Pick up a copy if you ever get a chance. I just checked on Amazon, and it’s quite expensive ($40 new, $30 used) since it’s out of print.

    He has another book titled, “Things a Computer Scientist Rarely Talks About.” It’s interesting to see what insights a very intelligent man who came to faith later in life has. Unfortunately, it looks like that one’s $25. I’m really cheap, but I bought 3:16 as a gift for a family member a number of years ago, and received TaCSRTA from a relative after he was done with it.

    It really is wonderful having these conversations as Christ’s sheep. We have a lot to learn from each other.

    Like

  33. “The folks, who want to be one of “His Disciples,” one of “His Sheep,” and NOT the sheep of a Mere Fallible Human shepherd, will become curious and check the Bible out for themselves about *The “ONE” Shepherd,* that does NOT cause His Sheep to go astray…”
    “I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}”

    I love your focus on Christ.

    Like

  34. TIA – Cindy K

    Don’t know about youse guys – But – I’ve believed lots of lies in the past…
    Told by those who said they were Gifts from God to me, and His Church…
    Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Shepherds, Teachers…
    That stuff sounded good at first – I was told I was this Gift – Then ouch…

    TIA – I do NOT deny these APEST exist In the Bible, and today.
    What I see is, APEST in the Bible, is NOTHING like the APEST we see today.
    The APEST in the Bible has NOTHING in common with the APEST of today.
    And what I was taught about these APEST. 😦

    Just look at shepherds in the Bible. NOT one Disciple calls themself shepherd. NOT one Disciple has the “Title” shepherd. So, Today, WE, His Disciples, do NOT know who these shepherds are in Eph 4:11. They remain hidden, anonymous, NOT drawing attention to themselves.

    NOT like today’s shepherd/leader promoting themselves constantly. Putting that “Title” pastor on Web-Sites, office walls, desks, doors, secretaries desks, Business Cards, Books, Conference Schedules, Sunday Bulletins, Church Street Signs, and everyone knows who is the pastor. Why?

    NOT like today’s shepherd/leader promoting themselves, as a “Special Clergy Class.” NOT like today’s shepherd/leader promoting *His Sheep* as lesser “Lay people.” NOT like today’s shepherd/leader promoting themselves as “God Ordained Authority.” NOT like today’s shepherd/leader who promotes themself as “the leader,” WE, His Disciples, His sheep, are to” Obey” and submit to in Heb 13:17.

    AND – Like The Called Out Ones, the Ekklesia, The Church at Ephesus,
    Who examined those who said they were apostles – In Rev 2:2, and said…
    “canst NOT bear them which are evil: and thou hast “tried” them
    which say they are apostles, (prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers.)
    and are NOT, and hast found them LIARS:”

    As I “tried,” “examined,” today’s APEST with “Titles/Positions”
    I found they did NOT Qualify – I found them to be LIARS.

    Yup – That’s the Job of We, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep…
    to “hast tried them which say they are apostles,
    (prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers.)

    1 Thess 5:12 KJV
    And we beseech you, brethren, to *know them (* perceive, notice, discern)
    which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

    Like

  35. Amos,

    I’m tracking with you. I’ve got a question.

    Obviously not every believer has the time and resources to learn Hebrew and Greek, study ancient cultural practices, etc. in order to teach others. I see a very valid and important role for people who dedicate their lives to doing such things. How should such people earn a living without compromise?

    Another related question. Some celebrity pastors are quite obviously off the deep end (eg. Joel Osteen, Steven Furtick, etc.). They are famous for the sake of being famous and preaching unbiblical truths. But what about others who have become famous because of decades of faithfully teaching God’s Word (eg. Warren Wiersbe, Chuck Swindoll, Erwin Lutzer, etc.)? Are not some of these cases of Prov. 22:1, 29? Obviously none of them are perfect, but there are those who are at least attempting to serve God faithfully. How do we get the benefit of their teaching without the associated compromises?

    Most Christians long for a “pastor” to teach them and care for them. And there is supposed to be teaching and pastoring going on, right? So how do we get teaching and pastoral care without teachers and pastors? We can’t. By definition, if there is teaching going on, there is a teacher. If there is pastoring going on, there is a pastor. I guess it all goes back to these…words!

    “They remain hidden, anonymous, NOT drawing attention to themselves.”

    Again, I get what you’re saying about seeking titles and positions. But the fact is that many heroes of the faith “drew attention to themselves”, at least in some sense. What about David, Elijah, Paul, and others? They certainly drew attention to themselves. They were famous. The issue is, “What did they do with that attention?” Did they glory in it and seek more attention for themselves, or did they point people to Christ?

    Col. 1:18
    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Like

  36. Keith wrote (a while ago!):
    “Back to Swanson and Gothard, it is a little confusing to me why someone with a confessional back ground would be attracted to a loose cannon like Gothard who differs so much in his basic theology. Is the idea simply that since they agree on the ends, the means, i.e. the differing theological premises/analysis is unimportant? A sort of result-orientation? What is Swanson’s background? Did he come from some other theological perspective before he became an OPC elder?”

    I was recently at a talk about “family integrated churches.” The most well known organization in that regard is the National Center for Family Integrated Churches. The NCFIC will include any church of any background (Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.) as long as they agree to their (the NCFIC’s) confession.

    There is nothing wrong with an FIC, but the NCFIC takes it to the extreme that FIC’s are the only valid form of church. From the NCFIC confession:

    Article XI — The Biblical Pattern of the Church Reflects Age and Family Integration

    We affirm that there is no scriptural pattern for comprehensive age segregated discipleship, and that age segregated practices are based on unbiblical, evolutionary and secular thinking which have invaded the church (Deut. 16:9-14; Josh. 8:34-35; Ezra 10:1; 2 Chr.20:13; Nehemiah 12:43; Joel 2:15-16; Acts 20:7; Eph. 6:1-4).

    We deny/reject that corporate worship, discipleship and evangelism should be systematically segregated by age, and that it has been an effective method for making disciples.

    Swanson’s church is part of the NCFIC, which was founded by Doug Phillips and is now run by Scott Brown.

    Anyway, my point was not to make any direct connection between Swanson and Gothard, but simply to point out that many people are sacrificing certain confessions (that they claim to hold to) and adopting other confessions that are in opposition to what they claim to believe. This is nothing new. Just look at the liberal takeover of Harvard, Princeton, etc. or the big government Republican party which claims to be for smaller government. People will claim one thing (to gain support and legitimacy) while doing the opposite.

    Like

  37. TIA – Cindy K

    You both have “reasonable” thoughts and ask “reasonable” questions. I admire the way you express them and your knowledge of the scriptures.

    I’m just “reasoning” from a different place. – Since I left, what I call…
    “Today’s Abusive Religious System.” The 501 (c) 3, IRS Corporation church.

    And, I left what my pastor/leaders taught me, and what I in-turn taught others. Which turned out to be mostly Commandments of Men, Doctrines of Men, Traditions of Men, that “Make Void” the Word of God. – And NOT in the Bible. And NOT what Jesus taught.

    When I left in the early 90’s, thru much Pain, Tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.”
    I had NO place else To Go – But To Go To {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    And {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} is the best Shepherd and the best Teacher. – Yes?

    ALL sheep are free to go to Fallible Humans as shepherds and teachers…
    “Most Christians long for a “pastor” to teach them and care for them.”

    But the Bible also warns us about Human pastors – shepherds. Beware…
    And, this has been my experience with today’s pastor/leader/reverend…
    And, you’re NOT likely to hear these verses from the pulpit… 😉

    Jer 2:8 KJV – ”The Pastors” also transgressed against me…
    Jer 10:21 KJV – ”The Pastors” are become brutish, ( beastly, carnal )
    Jer 12:10 KJV – Many “Pastors” have destroyed my vineyard,
    Jer 22:22 KJV – The *wind shall eat up all “Thy Pastors,”
    (*wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)
    Jer 23:1 KJV Woe be unto ”The Pastors” that destroy and scatter the sheep…
    Jer 23:2 KJV – …thus saith the LORD God of Israel against ”The Pastors” that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,
    saith the LORD.
    Jer 50:6 KJV – “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    Today I’m concerned with “The Abused who need Healing” and “Protecting the Sheep.” Seems Most “Spiritual Abuse” begins with “pastor/leaders” “church leaders” Those with the Power, Profit, Prestige. Who take “Titles/Positions” NOT in the Bible. And use those “Titles/Positions” to control and manipulate His Sheep. And WE, His Sheep are to admonish one another, warn one another.

    Jesus taught in Mt 11:28…
    Come unto me, all ye that labour (Weary with toils and burdens)
    and are heavy laden, (burdens, unwarranted precepts)
    and I will give you rest.

    Why look to a Mere Fallible Human to be your shepherd? Your Teacher?
    Can they teach you about your “private relationship” with Jesus?
    Can they give you “Rest?”

    When He who wants to give you “Rest,” carry your burdens…
    And be your “ONE” Shepherd – Your “ONE” Teacher – Is…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  38. TIA – Cindy K

    And, WE, His Sheep, are NOT just warned about Human pastors-shepherds…
    WE, His Called Out Ones, His Disciples are also warned about…
    1- False apostles. ————— 2 Cor 11:13, Rev 2:2,
    2- Many false prophets. —– 1 John 4:1, Mrk 13:22, Mat 7:15, Mat 24:11, 24,
    3- False teachers. ————— 2 Pet 2:1,
    4- False brethren. ————– Gal 2:4,
    5- False Christ’s (false anointed ones). — Mat 24:5, Mat 24:24, Mark 13:22,
    6- Deceitful workers. ———- 2 Cor 11:13,
    7- Evil workers. —————- Phil 3:2,

    WOW – Lots of bumps and potholes on this path to Jesus… 😉

    And, HOW do WE, His Called Out Ones, His Ekklesia, His Church – Know who these False guys are? Unless WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, Go To {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} for ourselves? Study and Read the Bible for ourselves? Becoming workmen rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15. Hear His voice and follow {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} for ourselves? NO middle man?

    Give a man a fish – he eats for today.
    Teach a man to fish – He eats today, tomorrow, forever…

    Teach a believer *your revelation* of Jesus – They eat for a day…
    And then NEED *you* or another Human pastor/teacher for their next meal…

    Teach a believer, they NEED NO MAN teach them, they can be one of His Disciples, Hearing His Voice, Following Jesus, learning directly from Jesus. NO middle man. Teach a believer they can – Get Revelation directly from Jesus.
    NO middle Man.

    And this believer NO longer NEEDS *you,”
    This believer NO longer NEEDS a Mere Fallible Human shepherd/teacher.

    This believer can Go To The “ONE” Shepherd, The “ONE” Teacher

    This believer can Go, for themselves, Today, Tomorrow, Forever, Eternity,

    Directly To {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  39. ;Lydia: No response to my last comment?”

    You will have to copy it for me. I lost track of the thread.

    Like

  40. “Lydia – that is the story of my life – lol. ”

    I can imagine! I just visit in your backyard here….I cannot imagine trying to keep up with it all which is why I don’t blog.

    Like

  41. TIA – Cindy K

    As I said, You have “reasonable” thoughts and ask “reasonable” questions.
    And, I’m just “reasoning” from a different place.

    NOW – I start my “reasoning” process with – {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    NOT what Mere Fallible Humans have said and taught.
    BUT – What {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} DID, and TAUGHT His Disciples.

    And – What His Disciples DID, and TAUGHT others.
    And try and have them match up with what Jesus taught

    Because…
    I noticed MOST “Church Leaders,” Most pastor/leaders, Today…
    *Ignore* or *Twist* what Jesus DID and TAUGHT.
    What His Disciples DID and TAUGHT.

    TIA writes…
    “there is supposed to be teaching and pastoring going on, right?”

    Well, Kinda, Lets look at Jesus…
    How DID {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} Teach?
    And – What did Jesus teach His Disciples?
    What did Jesus teach His Disciples – About Teaching?

    Jesus taught a lot in the Streets and had His Disciples DO what He DID.
    And He sent them out to Preach the kingdom and Heal the sick. Lu 9:2.

    And Jesus taught “His Disciples” to teach “What” He taught them.

    Mat 28:19:20 NIV
    Therefore go and make disciples…
    **teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.**

    Simple – read the 4 gospels – the Red – Again and again, over and over…
    Hang out with Jesus. And see, learn, what Jesus commanded His Disciples…

    Here is some of what Jesus, “The Word of God,” taught “His Disciples”
    1 – NOT to be called teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8
    2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10
    3 – ALL shall be taught of God. Jn 6:45
    4 – ALL things, shall be taught you by the Holy Spirit, God. Jn 14:26
    5 – ALL truth, will come as the Spirit of truth guides and leads. Jn 16:13
    6 – Jesus, as man, does nothing of himself, and is taught of God. Jn 8:28
    7 – Jesus is the “ONE” Shepherd, the Good Shepherd. Jn 10:11-16.
    8 – He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory. (Titles/Position?) Jn 7:18.
    9 – If I honour myself, my honour is nothing. (Titles/Position?) Jn 8:54
    10 – Jesus, as man, gives “All” the glory, all the credit to God.
    Peter, knowing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, received *the revelation* from Father *God,* and NOT from man. Mt 16:17
    NOT from Jesus, as man. Jesus gave “All” the glory, all the credit to God.

    Jesus taught *The ”ONE” Teacher* is – Christ – Holy Spirit – Father – God.
    Do NOT speak of yourself – Do NOT honor yourself…
    And if anyone learns anything – give the credit to God…. 😉

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

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  42. TIA – Cindy K

    It does take a step of faith to believe and trust that Jesus “can speak to you” and **teach you** and ALL the old sheep and new Sheep – “ALL” truth.

    And we do have some examples; 1 – Jesus, 2 – Peter, 3 – Paul.

    1 – Jesus, as man, declared, “He” could do nothing of Himself.

    John 8:28
    …I do nothing of myself; but as **my Father hath taught me,**

    John 5:30
    I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge:
    and my judgment is just; because **I seek not mine own will,**
    but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 5:19
    …The Son can do nothing of himself, but what **he seeth the Father do:**
    for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    2 – Peter understood that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God.
    Jesus declared that Peter was blessed because;
    1 – Flesh and blood “did NOT” reveal that to him.
    2 – The Father, “did” reveal it.

    Mt 16:17
    Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
    for **flesh and blood hath NOT revealed it** unto thee,
    but my Father which is in heaven.

    Here’s Jesus, the greatest teacher, NOT taking the credit.
    He taught Peter, it’s the one who lives “in you” that **teaches you.**

    3 – Paul declared that “his gospel” was NOT of man,
    he received it from God and he conferred NOT with flesh and blood.

    Ga 1:11-16
    …the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
    For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it,
    but by the revelation of Jesus Christ…

    …16-To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
    immediately **I conferred NOT with flesh and blood:**

    Who better to “interpret scripture” than Jesus?
    My Sheep “hear MY Voice” and FOLLOW ME.

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice;”
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  43. TIA – Cindy K

    And His Disciples DID and TAUGHT what Jesus DID and TAUGHT.

    John the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.

    1 – ALL know, discern, all things. From the anointing in you. 1 Jn 2:20
    2 – You need NOT any man teach you. Some will seduce you. 1 Jn 2:26-27
    3 – ALL things, are taught to you by the anointing. 1 Jn 2:27

    Paul the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.

    1- The gospel, NOT taught to me by man, but by revelation. Ga 1:11-12
    2 – I conferred NOT with flesh and blood. Ga 1:16
    3 – You have heard Jesus, and have been taught by Jesus. Eph 4:21
    4 – You are taught by God to love one another. 1 Thes 4:9
    5 – When together, all can teach, all can get revelation. 1 Cor 14:26
    6 – Be led by the Spirit of God, and be a son of God. Rm 8:14

    “What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?

    When Paul said, – and some **shepherds and teachers**
    for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
    for the edifying of the body of Christ. Eph 4:11

    I don’t see Paul having any thoughts about once a week – For 1 hour…
    Paid Professional Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
    Then a week goes by and most has been forgotten. If even heard. 😉
    Is that “How” Jesus taught? Wasn’t He “daily” with “His Disciples?”

    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
    Teach a man to fish and he eats daily, for life.

    Pastor/teachers in pulpits “create” people dependant on them.
    The Pastor/Teacher makes a name for himself, a reputation, BUT…
    **Humans now looks to humans** for learning, for revelation,
    And NOT to Jesus. 😦

    Teach a man to hear from Jesus, learn from Jesus, revelation from Jesus…
    You have, “Disciples of Christ.” Learners of Christ. Ekklesia of Christ.
    Now Jesus can feed, lead, and teach them “daily,” forever… Eternity…

    Jesus, as man, learned directly from God. – Revelation. – Jn 8:28
    Peter learned directly from God. – Revelation. – Mt 16:17
    Paul learned directly from God. – Revelation. – Ga 1:11-12, Ga 1:16,

    Jesus taught, God will teach you. – Jn 6:45, Jn 14:26, Jn 16:13
    John taught, God will teach you. – 1 Jn 2:20-27
    Paul taught, God will teach you. – Eph 4:21, 1 Thes 4:9, 1 Cor 14:26.

    “What” were Disciples commanded to teach? (What Jesus taught them.)
    “What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
    “What’ were the “elders” who were to teach supposed to teach?

    Did they just give the people already chewed on fish? Their revelation?
    The – I believes – of a denomination? What they learned in seminary?
    The five points of Calvin?

    Or, did they teach, get it yourself from Jesus? And how to get it?
    And they did nothing of themselves but what they saw the Father doing?
    Like Jesus, Peter, and Paul?

    If you’re being equipped to be a “Servant” “An Ambassador” of Jesus?
    Wouldn’t it be important to, hear and learn from Jesus, directly, NOW?
    Wouldn’t it be important to, be led by the Spirit of God, directly, NOW?

    Might not be able to wait for an appointment with the Clergy. 🙂

    I (God) will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go:
    I (God) will guide thee with mine eye.
    Psalms 32:8

    Out of heaven He (God) made thee to **hear His voice,**
    that He (God) might *instruct thee:*
    Deuteronomy 4:36

    Trust in the LORD (God) with all thine heart;
    and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In ALL thy ways acknowledge him, (God)
    and HE (God) shall direct thy paths.
    Proverbs 3:5-6

    A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD (God) directeth his steps.
    Proverbs 16:9

    …the meek will HE (God) teach his way.
    Psalms 25:9

    …He (God) will teach us of his ways, and will walk in his (God’s) paths…
    Isaiah 2:3

    “What” DID Jesus teach? – “God” will teach you – Directly…
    “What DID His Disciples teach? – God will teach you – Directly…

    Isn’t that what “we,” “His Disciples,” TODAY are to teach?

    The Best Shepherd, the Good Shepherd, The “ONE” Shepherd…
    The Best Teacher, The “ONE” Teacher – IS

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  44. Amos,

    Thanks for your thoughts. As I think I’ve shared before, I’m part of a fellowship where there is no “pastor.” We spend over an hour each Sunday morning simply remembering the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not a planned service. Any brother is free to read a scripture, share a few thoughts, pray, or suggest a hymn to be sung. The entire time is spent focused on…

    {{{{{ Jesus }}}}}

    We do also have a “preaching meeting” where a few hymns are sung and someone preaches (from the Bible, for the most part, unlike many “churches” where the sermons often only touch on the scriptures). It is a different speaker every week.

    Anyway, here’s a hymn we sang yesterday that I think fits in well with our conversation here:

    O Jesus, friend unfailing,
    How dear Thou art to me!
    Are cares or fears assailing?
    I find my strength in Thee.
    Why should my feet grow weary
    Of this my pilgrim way?
    Rough tho’ the path and dreary,
    It ends in perfect day.

    Naught, naught I count as pleasure,
    Compared, O Lord, with Thee;
    Thy sorrow, without measure,
    Earned peace and joy for me.
    I love to own, Lord Jesus,
    Thy claims o’er me divine;
    Bought with Thy blood most precious,
    Whose can I be but Thine?

    O worldly pomp and glory,
    Your charms are spread in vain!
    I’ve heard a sweeter story,
    I’ve found a truer gain.
    Where Christ a place prepareth,
    There is my loved abode;
    There shall I gaze on Jesus:
    There shall I dwell with God.

    For every tribulation,
    For every sore distress,
    In Christ I’ve full salvation,
    Sure help and quiet rest.
    No fear of foes prevailing!
    I triumph, Lord, in Thee:
    O Jesus, friend unfailing,
    How dear Thou art to me!

    Liked by 1 person

  45. “Lydia: Apropos the nature of the resistance to NSDAP.”

    That is not helping. Too general. Besides the only reason I saw this is becuase TIA commented and it was on “recent comments”. I cannot even find this thread without because it takes too much time. Dead horse. I will forfeit.

    Like

  46. TIA

    Thank you so much – This song was “GREAT” and right on time…
    You were, and are, an“Ambasordor of Christ” for me today…

    Pro 13:17
    …but a faithful ambassador is health. 😉

    Try this with a few different stanzas – Hmmm? Spelling???
    A Few Different words… 😉

    1 O JESUS, Friend unfailing,
    How dear art Thou to me!
    Are cares or fears assailing?
    I find my strength in Thee!
    Why should my feet grow weary
    Of this my pilgrim way?
    Rough though the path and dreary,
    It ends in perfect day!

    2 What fills my heart with gladness?
    ‘Tis Thine abounding grace!
    Where can I look in sadness,
    But, Jesus, on Thy face?
    My all is Thy providing —
    Thy love can ne’er grow cold;
    In Thee, my Refuge, hiding —
    No good wilt Thou withhold.

    3 Why should I droop in sorrow?
    Thou’rt ever by my side!
    Why, trembling, dread the morrow?
    What ill can e’er betide?
    If I my cross have taken,
    ‘Tis but to follow Thee;
    If scorned, despised, forsaken,
    Nought severs Thee from me.

    4 For every tribulation,
    For every sore distress,
    In Christ I’ve full salvation,
    Sure help and quiet rest.
    No fear of foes prevailing,
    I triumph, Lord, in Thee!
    O JESUS, Friend unfailing,
    How dear art Thou to me!

    Our best “Friend Unfailing” – IS…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Amos,

    Yes, a beautiful hymn indeed. A good reminder and encouragement. It’s one of our family’s favorites. The version with all six verses (the four I included, plus verses 2 and 3 from your version) is wonderful. For a time I sang it to our daughter every night at bedtime, so we have the words memorized (she knew it when she was only about three years old!).

    Here’s another encouraging one that was mentioned yesterday:

    A debtor to mercy alone, of covenant mercy I sing;
    Nor fear, with Thy righteousness on, my person and off’ring to bring.
    The terrors of law and of God with me can have nothing to do;
    My Savior’s obedience and blood hide all my transgressions from view.

    The work which His goodness began, the arm of His strength will complete;
    His promise is Yea and Amen, and never was forfeited yet.
    Things future, nor things that are now, nor all things below or above,
    Can make Him His purpose forgo, or sever my soul from His love.

    My name from the palms of His hands eternity will not erase;
    Impressed on His heart it remains, in marks of indelible grace.
    Yes, I to the end shall endure, as sure as the earnest is giv’n;
    More happy, but not more secure, the souls of the blessed in Heav’n.

    May the Lord bless you!

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  48. Lydia: I had hoped to be constructive by providing you names and information regarding the Widerstand. It was not meant as a contest. My original statement was that the resistance to Hitler was mostly composed of nobility, monarchists, confessional Lutherans,Roman Catholics etc. But I will accept the forfeit if you wish.

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