After the Doug Phillips Vision Forum Scandal: What Should We as Homeschoolers Parents Do Now?

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The Doug Phillips Vision Forum scandal has left homeschooling families reeling and questioning:   what now, where do we go from here?  What about Patriarchy, Full-Quiver, Courtship, Parenting? A Concerned Dad asks some great questions.

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Over the weekend, I got an excellent e-mail from A Concerned Dad who probably echoes the thoughts of many homeschool parents as we try to make sense of the Doug Phillips scandal. He gave me permission to share it here.

Many of us were sold a bill of goods under his teachings and now the rug has been pulled out from beneath us.  What now?

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Julie Anne-

Thanks so much for sharing your story through your blog.  I’ve been doing a ton of thinking the past month or so since the whole Doug Phillips thing blew up.  It has been a huge wake-up call for me and I’m reading and listening to many viewpoints across the internet. I’m going through the stages of grief in a way as some of our dreams are dying. Underneath it all, I do have this feeling of finally being set free from some lies and fear we have been living with for many years.

I think our family is very similar to yours, but you are several years ahead of us on this journey.  We also touched on the fringes of the movement, have had much of the garbage infiltrate our lives and now we are at a point where I’m trying to figure out what to do.

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We have 8 kids under the age of 16, mostly girls.  My wife does an admirable job with the home education but at this point we are at the breaking point.

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The past year we have finally released the older two children to a public charter school and we are on the verge of doing the same with the younger ones.  For a while, we were heading down the familiar path–daughters preparing for motherhood, courtship, not going to college, etc…but I’ve completely soured on all of that.  Our girls are doing sports through the local schools, preparing for college and other “baby steps” towards more normal life.

I just listed to the very long podcast you were a part of on Godtalk and I was sick to my stomach thinking about the damage we may have done and could do.  My wife is still somewhat on board with the whole quiver-full thing, Above Rubies, and the other typical parties.

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This type of thinking has seriously permeated a large portion of the home schooling sub-culture to the point the subtle pressure is felt down in the trenches in local groups and cliques.  

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She still seems to be pretty enslaved to thought that she can “do it all” and somehow shelter our kids from the evil out there.  It’s a false view of spirituality I guess–the evil is out there, not in us.   I feel like it we are miserable here with no freedom or joy anymore.

My questions to you:

Would you still home-school knowing what you know now?

What would you do differently?

Do you recommend any form of discipline/training?  I’ve been drawn to love and logic and have read/listened to some of those materials. Any other advice for those of us our here who are someone in between those two camps? 

I see good and bad in both sides and think we can blend the two to some degree.  It may be a child-by-child decision to adapt to their needs and maturity, but I’m also interested in how people manage these complexities.

Thanks so much!

A Concerned Dad

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I’d like to open this up for all of us to respond.  I certainly don’t have all of the answers. How would you respond to A Concerned Dad?

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photo credit: wormwould via photopin cc

238 comments on “After the Doug Phillips Vision Forum Scandal: What Should We as Homeschoolers Parents Do Now?

  1. I predict this will remain my favorite comment of the day:

    (By the by, I am agog at these patriarchs who somehow think that men can’t work around women without being distracted when my teen boy manages to get A’s in Honors French and Geometry with “hot” teen girls next to him. My male co-workers and husband manage to get through a day without making passes at interns. What makes these patriarchs such special snowflakes?)

    Can anyone top that?

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  2. I think it’s interesting that when a lot of male church leaders pontificate about women in the Bible, they never mention my all- time favorite, Jael :-).

    In all seriousness, this is a good thread question and so many good answers. I am a 42 year old woman and a product of a fundamental church and school. K-12. Luckily for me and my siblings, my parents didn’t buy into all of it such as the role of women in the home, “full time Christian service” should be one’s first job choice, no movies, no mixed swimming (We after all, were a competitive swimming family.) no, no, no, no, no. My father was a doctor. My mother was a nurse turned SAHM – her choice. They were fundamental in that they believed in the inerrancy of Scriptures, the virgin birth, the literal death and resurrection, salvation through the work of Christ, etc., etc., etc. They did not believe that we were to live our lives literally as those in the Middle East 4000 years ago. Our home was not run in such a manner.

    That being said, I bear many scars of my fundamental Christian school as my parents didn’t know all the things that were being taught me re: “role” of women and work. My mom was shocked years later when I told her what had been engrained. The pastor did not preach such things from the pulpit, but the Headmaster (Yes, that’s what he called himself, and he has an honorary doctorate from a Christian college with no doctoral program, and he makes sure people call him “Doctor.”) My parents had me there b/c for a long time the school offered a classical Christian education, but then things changed when this new leader came in and started teaching that if we really loved God we’d be preachers or preachers wives or missionaries, and women needed to wear skirts and culottes. (Jeans were form fitting and caused men to lust. Brilliant. Loved that I was introduced to body hating as an 11 year old child.) I never felt an inkling of that call on my life so there was much angst on my part that something was wrong with me, and I just didn’t love God enough.

    I went onto college as did all of my siblings, but the best thing that ever happened to me was marrying an Army officer and being thrust into the military life. A lieutenant colonel once told me, “The church can learn a lot from the Army.” That was an understatement. There is plenty of wrongdoing in the military, but his point was overall there is equality, concern and care for one another respect, hard work and dignity for all. I especially loved the military chapel where my eyes were opened to the many teaching of other Protestant faiths as well as Catholicism. Surprise, surprise, these folks loved Jesus just like me – they just worshiped in different ways. Their skin color was different. We came from all kinds of socio economic backgrounds. We were reared differently. But we were one in Christ!

    I say all that to share this. I now have children of my own. It’s taken a long time and wise counsel to shed the wrong thoughts and ideas ingrained into me as a little girl in that fundamental school. A VERY LONG TIME. I am not alone. About eight of us childhood girlfriends got together a few years ago for our milestone birthdays, and slowly started to share where we were spiritually. It was amazing to hear that so many of us had the same hang ups and struggled with the same mindsets for years. We all love Jesus. We are all still in churches, but we are all rearing our children differently than how we were reared – especially those of us with daughters. I would suggest to those of you who did not grow up in this manner to listen to those of us that did – whether it was taught via homeschool, church or private Christian school. It is detrimental to those of use who are highly creative and inquisitive. It harms our spirits and souls to the core. It shames us and makes us question what’s wrong with us – that somehow we are very, very bad b/c we don’t desire to be the things that were taught we were supposed to desire. I can’t tell you how many times we were called rebellious. What we really were was curious, but we weren’t given answers for our serious questions. We just has Bible verses hurled at us ad nauseum with no background, language or cultural explanations.

    I always said I would educate our daughters in the manner that was best for them – not what’s best for my husband or me, but them. They spent their pres-school and early elementary in private Christian school, and I loved their teachers and their experience. Then we moved to another town, and the Spirit really worked on my heart about my views of public school and convicting me that I was living in fear. I’d poured my heart and God’s heart into these girls, and they weren’t going to suddenly turn into bloodthirsty killers. Turns out, where we live now the public school offers a program that is much more rigorous than the private schools in the area. They still love Jesus. They still desire to learn about the Bible and please God and share Him with others. Most of their teachers are lovely Christians. (Just more assurance for me , that in this season, we are in the right place. I love how God confirms when we choose to obey his calling.) God blessed us with tremendously bright girls, and we believe our job is to shepherd this intellect into anything He has planned for their futures be it world renowned scientist or stay at home mother. Recently, I’ve observed one of my daughters learns math in a different manner than how it is being presented in schools. As a former teacher, I am very aware of all the emphasis placed on standardized tests, and in all my research, which is quite a lot, I’m finding that this is a huge detriment to some children. My daughter is one of these children so I am now considering homeschooling next year for her.

    This isn’t based on fear. This isn’t about biblical mandates. This isn’t about my staying home because that’s where the Bible tells me I am supposed to be. This is about my child and what is best for her. Her sister will probably stay where she is for now. We’ll see. She’s thriving. This isn’t about picking out a few verses out to throw out like a weapon. This is about a living, breathing human being whom God gave me in His generosity. This is about a young lady that God has used tremendously to undue all the harm placed upon my “wild at heart” spirit when I was her age. This is about “the least of these” – the ones Jesus said, “Get out of the way, and let them come.”

    Maybe if we adults started treating our children with the dignity and respect they deserve as image bearers, we wouldn’t hem them in so tightly. I know plenty of home schoolers who have gotten into plenty of trouble. I know many who have gone on to do wonderful things and are quite successful professionally.
    The same can be said of kids in public and Christian schools. The best we can do is listen and hear and heed the work of the Spirit in our lives, and pray God’s grace over our children. What God has in store for my daughter in the public school might be a completely different end than your son who is home schooled. What I am supposed to be learning about God in stepping in faith and out of different school situations is going to be different from what God is teaching all of you here about Himself. After all, though we are one in Christ, we are different people entirely.

    I have not walked away from my faith. I know all the Scriptures, the doctrine. I know all the pat answers – because I’ve heard them and in turned used them unfortunately to harm others. (Sigh. I’ve prayed for grace into those people’s lives I know I’ve unintentionally harmed when I was still stuck in that legalistic thought process, and I’ve sough forgiveness.). But knowing and living in true freedom are two different things. I am thankful for what I learned ABOUT the Bible in my youth, but I am even more thankful for a God who loves me enough to transform my heart and mind through those Scriptures. I pray this transformation for my daughters as well…no matter where their classrooms lie.

    Finally, I’d like to say I bear no ill will towards the folks who were my teachers way back when. I’m happy to say they, along with my “headmaster” have loosened their grips as well and I’m hearing that rules and teachings at the school of my childhood aren’t nearly as restrictive and legalistic now. I’m so happy for the students – especially the girls!

    Thanks for letting me share my heart. I apologize the length, but it’s been on my mind for at least a day or so since reading the post title. I have learned so much from so many of you here.

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  3. Welcome, Priscilla. No need to apologize for the length of your comment. I loved reading your story and what’s been stirring in your heart.

    I was just thinking about Ed’s earlier comment on rules and how he can’t stand them. Ed is a long-time reader and his no-nonsense faith and understanding Scripture has taught me much.

    If you notice, those who are entrenched in the Homeschool Movement, are also entrenched in rules. They claim these rules to be Biblical, but they are extra-Biblical which means they are anti-Biblical.

    Retha has asked Gary Fore some pointed questions about what he claims to be Biblical gender roles and instead of responding directly, he seems to shut down the conversation by saying: we’ll never agree, so there’s no use in arguing. That is a cop out. That is a very weak response.

    If Gary Fore is sure of himself and his Bible (aka Rule Book), then he should have no problem identifying specific verses as Retha and I have requested.

    When I talk Homeschool Movement, I’m not just talking about Doug Phillips, but a whole lot of men who follow similar ideologies. I’m going to keep going back to it, but these leaders are fueled by the Reconstructionist ideologies. This means Old Testament laws are more valid to them than what Jesus did.

    I feel a tug of war every time someone like Gary Fore comes here. They seem to have the right words, but in reality, they are forcing people to go back to Old Testament Rules and Regs and then they tell us we are the ones going away from Scripture, being influenced by the F word = Feminists.

    Um, no – I think we are influenced by the J word = Jesus!

    Jesus came to free us from that!

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  4. I have not yet read all the replies and will do so later.

    To the homeschool dad who this post is about: I hear you. My husband and I have been going through the same questions since we left patriarchy around three years ago. When you believe something for so long and then your world is rocked, it necessarily opens up more questions than answers.

    The world of patriarchy/quiverfull is damaging. I just had my sixth child in August and my body is beyond exhausted and broken (and guess what, with so many young kids, I don’t have time to go to the doctor to get the care I need). I am OVERWHELMED. Because of this, we will more than likely be sending some of our children to public school next year. My heart is broken over this unnecessarily because of the lies I bought in the homeschooling/quiverfool culture. Instead of recognizing that my children will get a better academic education in a place where they are not having to watch babies all day and do nothing but household chores that I cannot keep up with, I feel immense guilt that I have somehow failed. It is impossible for me to homeschool *well* when I have toddlers and babies at home. Yet, it is so very important for me that my kids get a good education. This is their only chance to learn.

    I am sorry if I hurt those who believe in “quiverfull.” However, let me implore you, as one of the women whom it has hurt both physically and emotionally, quiverfull thinking *can* harm its women.

    As for the questions:

    Would you still home-school knowing what you know now? – No, I honestly believe my children would get a better education at a good school. Of course, this is just my case. Many people, small and large families, are able to homeschool very, very well; unfortunately, that is not the same with me.

    What would you do differently? – I would stop reading materials on parenting/schooling/marriage/etc.! My husband and I should have turned towards Jesus instead and looked at the very particular needs of our own family and built our methods of child-rearing out of those. We would not have tried to fit ourselves into gender roles, because that is not how the gospel should be viewed. Instead of a pink and blue gospel, we should have viewed it through the eyes of Jesus, the One by Whom the Gospel was created.

    Do you recommend any form of discipline/training? I’ve been drawn to love and logic and have read/listened to some of those materials. Any other advice for those of us our here who are someone in between those two camps? – Look at each of your children and see who they are as human beings. Work with them on their weaknesses just as you would an employee or someone outside of your family. Treat them with dignity and respect. You will then begin to learn what works best for your family in regards to discipline.

    Enough of my rambling. Thanks for the opportunity to voice my thoughts, Julie Anne!

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  5. Ahem. Sorry, Julie Anne. I’ve had about 4 versions of this for 2 days now plus a private email to you and after dealing with a week’s worth of great women making great decisions for the betterment of business and consumers, I just had to come wading in as the jackbooted worldly feminist thug who objects most strenuously to these arbitrary gender roles. As a matter of basic human rights and autonomy, it’s immoral to oppress women and daughters, whatever the source of moral teaching. Similarly, the ideas that men and women must occupy these separate spheres and that public schools are government subsidized child abuse are simply not in accord with my 50+ years in the world. And speaking of, it’s time to return to that real world and the writing I get paid to do.

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  6. Ruth, I agree. It’s about basic human rights and freedom for every individual. Well said.

    Thank God for women like Harriet Beacher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom’s Cabin, who denounced slavery. She said:

    “I wrote what I did because as a woman, as a mother, I was oppressed and broken-hearted with the sorrows and injustice I saw, because as a Christian I felt the dishonor to Christianity – because as a lover of my county, I trembled at the coming day of wrath.” http://www.harrietbeecherstowecenter.org/hbs/

    A shame some have twisted Christianity to defend inequality. And that it’s still going on in regards to women & children.

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  7. As a young man, I went to public high school and college, and was still a virgin at 21 years old. I had dates with two young women while in high school whose mothers left us alone in the house on several occasions and in one instance I found myself kissing a girl who, while I was kissing her was undressing herself. I left. I was of the opinion that the moms in both cases wanted a son-in-law much earlier than I wanted to be someone’s son-in-law, if you get my meaning.

    I think a lot of the issue of the morality of public education, both el-hi and college, is misplaced. The issue is what is instilled into the hearts and minds of Christian kids regarding moral life and consequences of not living a moral life. BTW, I had cousins who were in religiously affiliated schools and left, went to a public school, and before the year was out, were parents — it had happened on the religiously affiliated school campus!

    If you cloister your children, you will deprive them of the experience they need to handle situations. If you teach your daughters that men have the say, then they will be more likely to give in to the pressure of the young man they are with to have sex — after all, he’s the man, isn’t he.

    People need to be serious about teaching children how to make moral decisions, not just some rules, because there are always counter arguments and exceptions to rules.

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  8. A woman’s role is to orbit around the home? We are now birds circling or planets orbiting? This is what Christian faith is about? Ha! I think that’s a funny joke!

    Seriously now, Gary. What about a woman who is in chemo? What about the woman in a coma? What about the woman who is physically disabled? What about a woman with morning sickness? Does the husband tell her she’s in sin for not fulfilling her “orbiting role”?

    What about a man with PTSD from the horrors of war? What about a man who is physically disabled? What if he’s depressed? What if he was homeschooled & doesn’t have a high school or college degree? Is he in sin for not fulfilling his “bring home the bacon role”?

    Gary, Is your answer to these very real people that God may or may not decide to change them & then walk on by? Does your conscience tinge you a bit? It should. We do not place burdens on others. You say she might change him, then God may change him, then you question if she really needs the money. These are non-solutions, nothing she can implement. Didn’t you read her comments first before responding to her? If you did, you would have known she explained, with sadness. Your response seems cold, disrespectful, & harsh to me. This is not how Jesus would respond to her. We are one body, brothers & sisters in Christ. We do not hurt each other. We comfort & love each other.

    Maria, Thank you for sharing your thoughts & for chiming in. I have enjoyed reading your comments. You nailed it here:

    “I see so much idealism that is not coupled with realism.”

    That, my friends, is ivory tower living (Jesus, our savior, was born in a barn). Elitist thinking. We misunderstand the life of Jesus if we think this way.

    Maria, You are valued. You are of great worth. Do what’s best for you and your family & feel good about doing it. Don’t feel ashamed or less than. You are not. You have every reason to hold your head high. I applaud you. 🙂

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  9. Christianity is not about stay at home moms. It’s not about homeschooling. It’s not about leadership or authority of men or patriarchy or complementarianism. It’s not about marriage. It’s not about looking for evil under every rock. It’s not about denying or hiding evil either. It’s not about building campaigns. It’s not about taking over the world. It doesn’t make people believe. It doesn’t shrug at suffering. It’s not about living at arms-length. It’s not about building walls, castles, ivory towers to “protect” families. That is the dark ages lifestyle.

    It is a dishonor to Christianity to say this is what Christianity is.

    Christianity as a lifestyle is to love God & love others the same as we love ourselves, according to Jesus himself. Matthew 22. This is what will draw others to Christianity.

    Christianity is life-affirming. It values life. It celebrates life. Anything other is not Christian.

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  10. Retha,

    Ok. Here are six verse sections from Holy Scripture. Tell me how they are supposed to be interpreted against their plain read.

    #1 Gen. 3:16, the last phrase “he shall rule over you” ( ~ 5 words) – regarding roles and who is the God ordained leader in the home, including over the wife. ( Now remember that I have already stated clearly that a husband is not a cruel overlord, but a tender loving man who does stand as the final lead in the home, but the goal is always to do so in grace and kindness and making onenness the pursuit. So, don’t accuse me of absuing the words, “rule over you.”

    #2 I Corinthians 11:3 – ” the man is the head of a woman”

    #3 I Corinthians 11:9 woman is created for the man’s sake, not the reverse.

    #4 I Timothy 2: 11-15 Woman does not exercise authority over a man. Even if you limit it to the church worship, do you adhere to this?

    #5 Titus 2:5 “being subject to their own husbands” (submission)

    #6 Titus 2:5 “workers at home” regarding the general role of the lady to “orbit” around the home as her daily focus.

    There you go. You have explicit texts. Tell me how they do not mean what they plainly say.

    Take care,

    Gary

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  11. To the Concerned Dad:
    While it is disheartening and discouraging to see people we trust and look up to fail, the bottom line is what does God want me as a father to do? It doesn’t matter what happens to other people. What matters is has God called me to homeschool. Am I following Christ or man? Do I swallow and believe everything I hear or do I search the scriptures daily to find out the truth for my family? We must lead our children into a relationship with Christ. Our goal should not be to just get them to obey us but to obey the Lord. We must have as our goal to release them to serve the Lord. I’ve been around Christian circles, churches, even worked for well-known Christian Ministries and I’ve found two types of people:

    1. The bigger group who follows man and tries to conform to and be like a man.

    2. The smaller group who takes what they hear and channels it through what God would have them do.

    One thing I learned from my parents when I was growing up was that the world could be going to hell but we were going to serve the Lord even if it meant standing alone! I’ve pastored many a people who fail to obey God in an area and as a result become out of balanced in other areas. They try to live the Christian life in their own strength or like the person they look up to. That my friend is bondage! Until they obey God in the area that He has convicted them of they never find freedom. I’ve seen them leave the church, thinking that it and its teachings, was the problem, only to go further into bondage and ruin. God will test us on every area we thought we believed.

    The question we must ask is, “Is it Biblical and how does God want me to apply it to my family.”

    God will speak to you Concerned Dad. You must seek him. He will lead you step by step. It’s a walk of faith to raise a family. You follow your position as leader and provider. You must practice your position as a servant. Does your wife and children see your leadership to them as Christ loved the church? Are you cleansing your wife as well as your kids by washing yourself in His Word. Ephesians 5 tells us that is how Christ cleanses the church. You must study Christ, not men. Children learn what is lived not just what is taught. Do you see everything you do as a way of life or a set of rules and standards? We must have standards but they must be based on Biblical Principles that God has shown us how to apply in our family.

    Finally, make sure you teach your children how to seek the Lord. Many times I can tell my children to do what’s right. I can even make them do it. I’ve learned to ask them when they are not doing right, “Did you read your Bible this morning and talk to the Lord?” If not, then I tell them to go settle it with the Lord and obey what he tells them. This is leading them into a willing and loving relationship with the Lord. My greatest desire is to see all my 10 children come to know Christ as savior and know him personally, for in that, they will do what’s right not because of me but because of Him!

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  12. Gary Fore,

    Even setting aside your misapplication of Gen. 3:16 and the fact that the translation of your Pauline verses are contested, you seem to have substituted some sort of de facto law of Paul for the law of Moses. Therefore, you may wish to examine yourself, whether you are even in the faith. I expect you are, but there is reason to conclude that you may not be.

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  13. Gary,

    What in the world are you saying… Each of those verses are either quotes or very close phrases from the NASB. Hardly a liberal, unproven translation?

    I only did what Retha asked. Here are verses – what do they mean?

    Gary

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  14. Gary Fore,

    You seem to be substituting rules and regulations (a/k/a laws) for Faith in Jesus. Therefore, I am suggesting you should examine yourself whether you are a true believer.

    As to the reliability of the NASB, it is generally very good. However, I know enough Greek to recognize that there are certain areas where the translation was driven by theological traditions.

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  15. Oh boy, here it comes. A misogynist walks into a spiritual abuse survivor blog spouting the usual oppressive nonsense. I’ll just leave the Biblical arguments to others. (I never did learn Greek during those decades I was proclaiming Biblical text to men and women (cue fainting couch and pearl clutching) as I was too busy being a wife, mom, and YES supervisor to young men who were required to submit to my management authority. The men are all undoubtedly gay and damaged now. I’ll ask their wives tonight at the office Christmas party I am now late to).

    To any young women lurking out there, let this old lady suggests that should a man quote any of those passages (and especially Timothy 2) to you as an expectation for your behavior, do what I do, and laugh in his face. Then, run, and don’t look back, because that submission stuff is toxic and no basis for the kind of relationship you want to have with a man. You do not ever submit to a man simply because he is a man and you are a woman. Ever.

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  16. Gary and Ruth,

    Gary – I will cease, not because I am in error, but because you refuse to simply acknowledge what I wrote to Retha. SHE asked me to give her specific verses about roles and the home. So, I gave six passages and asked her to comment. She has not ( probably because she has not yet seen them), but you write as if I have committed some horrid sin by asking what these verses mean if they don’t mean what they say at face value. I await Retha’s answer to these.

    In the meantime, my giving some references as a basis for the male/female design from God does not make me a “law” believer ( or unbeliever). There are many verses that also talk to the man that he is to love selflessly his wife, support her, love the children, be kind, etc. Again, I was not writing this list in anyway other than to simply answer RETHA’s comment that I had not supplied any foundational verses for my thoughts on M/F roles.

    Ruth – you obviously scorn the words that God says. So your mockery is in His face, not mine. I have repeatedly talked about the gentle loving relationship between a true Christian husband and his true Christian wife. It is mutual love and commitment. One is not superior to the other. They just have different functional roles, defined not by you, nor by me, but by GOD. The God of the Bible. So, if you reject that authority, His authority, then, there is nothing more to say. You can laughg( scorn), but someday, you will not be laughing. It will be Him with which you have to do. Heb 4:12-13.

    God designed the order. Go ahead and reject it – you will have to face Him over it someday. Sadly, for you, you will not escape Him. It won’t be pretty.

    Again, all I did is reply to Retha to ask her about the verses that she says I cannot supply that will provide support for God’s design for men and women.

    Ya’ll have a good day,
    Gary
    I Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Timothy 4:1-5.

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  17. Gary Fore says: “Ruth – you obviously scorn the words that God says.” Setting the question whether Ruth was scorning anything or anybody, since when did Paul become God? The Old Testament prophets spoke the words God gave them. I can think of one place where Paul claimed to repeat what God said. Maybe there are one or two instances that are not coming to mind. Otherwise, where is it written that Paul is the mouthpiece of God?

    So, Gary Fore, when you say that to scorn Paul is to scorn God, you have made an idol, a false God, of Paul. It is one more reason you may wish to examine yourself as to whether you are even in the faith. Please understand, I am not saying you are not in the faith, but there does seem to be an idolatrous devotion to Paul that should, just maybe, serve as a warning.

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  18. Gary Fore said the following phrases:

    Ruth – you obviously scorn the words that God says. So your mockery is in His face, not mine.

    So, if you reject that authority, His authority, then, there is nothing more to say. You can laughg( scorn), but someday, you will not be laughing. It will be Him with which you have to do. Heb 4:12-13.

    God designed the order. Go ahead and reject it – you will have to face Him over it someday. Sadly, for you, you will not escape Him. It won’t be pretty.

    Gary Fore:

    I have a hunch and please correct me if I’m wrong, that you think the above words are “loving” to Ruth – that you are trying to “lovingly” correct her.

    Some people would say instead, “we seem to have different interpretations of the same passage,” but instead, you go in for the kill. The way you communicate – trying to induce the fear of hell is not the way I saw Jesus communicate with people except to the Pharisees.

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  19. Mr. Fore:

    Jesus said that all of the OT can be summarized in two laws: Love God with all your being and love your neighbor as yourself. All of the law and the prophets. Any rule you need to OT to derive has been replaced with the law of love. And it is presumptuous of any Christian to take a NT verse or passage and twist it into a rule that makes one of Jesus two laws less that fully effective. All are adopted by accepting the gift of God through faith.

    If you want to get technical, the first Apostle commissioned by Jesus to tell the story of the resurrection to the then future male Apostles (def of an Apostle – one who was commissioned by Jesus directly in person after the resurrection, and some limit it to those to were commissioned before the ascension) was Mary Magdalene, a woman. The very first sermon preached by the church, other than those preached by Jesus himself, was Mary M preaching to the 11 and others present in the upper room shaking in their boots in fear of the Jewish and Roman authorities coming to get them and crucify them too. She was the first teacher, first preacher, for she did what Jesus told her to do.

    All of the rules about women teaching or preaching, etc., are of Pauline origin, and Paul was addressing problems in cultures which ranged from patriarchal to super-patriarchal, all rules which Jesus apparently ignored and disavowed. Women were chattel to the society but not to Jesus.

    So who do you follow: Jesus or some non-divine human being. Because maintaining the patriarchal rules is NOT FOLLOWING JESUS!!!.

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  20. Gary Fore: “As to scripture to prove the roles. Genesis 1-2, many other OT sections make the roles clear,”
    I wonder if you could clarify for me your view of Genesis 1-2 by answering the following for me: How many commands does God give to Man in Genesis 1-5, according to Moses, and what are they? What is the primary teaching of Jesus from this passage?
    I do have a very strong opinion on these which I’ll share if you’d like to discuss.

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  21. Gary Fore,

    I’ll never forget the Jehovah’s Witnesses defending their religious nonsense of having their women use “head coverings”. They use 1 Corinthians 11 as their justification. My Bible states that we have no such custom, their bible states that we have no other custom. Therefore, your use of 1 Corinthians 11 is just as flawed as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can challenge you on those verses, but I don’t have time at the moment.

    However, in regards to men and women, did you ever happen to notice that before the fall, there was no such custom of the men ruling over the woman? NO SUCH CUSTOM. Did you hear me? And since Jesus died and rose again, WE HAVE NO SUCH CUSTOM either.

    Did you ever happen to read the phrase “FIRST Adam”, and “LAST Adam”?

    It was BECAUSE of the fall that men ruled over women. But Jesus RESTORED all things, back to before the fall. Adam did not attain eternal life. WE HAVE IT.

    Do we need to sacrifice animals anymore? Who sacrificed the first animal? Who sacrificed the last animal? Who was the last animal? Why was that last animal sacrificed?

    I could go on and on about your “religion” in your being “religious”, needing a rule book on how to live your life, when there was NO RULE BOOK prior to the fall.

    Ed

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  22. Gary, I answer not for your sake but the sake of the readers. You did not answer my 5 questions. But I take these verses by what they plainly say.
    #1 Gen 3:16 should be interpreted literally – he will rule, as one of the bad effects of sin. The things in Gen 3:14-18 is often called “the curse.” It is not God’s ideal will, but his predictions of what will happen.
    For example, God said that the serpent will bruise the heel of humanity, not that the serpent will do right if he does so. God said that the man will rule and the woman will desire the man (instead of God), not that they will do right if they do so.
    In fact, God desires for the curse to be broken as far as we can, and He breaks the curse, so that even death will be beaten in God’s kingdom.
    #2 The man is the head – the Greek word this is translated from is not for leader, but for body part above the neck, cranium, skull, noggin. This had several symbolic meanings in Greek, but scholars testify it never meant leader in untranslated Greek. The possible meanings are discussed on web sites like “God’s word to women”. So I take it that some figurative meaning of head was meant, but not leader. Some think it speak of leadership because the English word has 2 meanings.
    #3 You take that text out of context.
    Significantly, the Bible teach the woman was made for the man’s loneliness, on his level (the term translated “meet for him” mean on his level, facing one another) – not to give him someone to rule. He (like her, when she was made) already had the earth to rule. She did not need someone to be made for her loneliness, for being the only member of her species – there already was someone when she was made.
    (1 Cor 11:2-16 is perhaps the most contradictory passage in the whole Bible (>head means two different things; > is long hair a covering for women as in vs. 15-16, or does she need more of a covering than that, according to vs. 5-6? Or can she decide for herself? – vs. 13 > Gen. 1:26-27 says that women are made in the image of God and Ps. 8:5 and 2 Cor. 3:18 says that all believers have God’s glory, but 1 Cor 11:7 says that she is the glory of man > nature does not teach us that long hair on a man is bad, and many Bible men had long hair – vs. 14.
    We should be careful what we take from this passage. Obviously, not all of its apparently plain messages are true.)
    # 4 (You are quoting, in quick succession, from BOTH the most contradictory and hard to understand passages in the Bible!. See “Different ways in which “let the woman learn in silence, I suffer not a woman to teach” are understood”, in three parts, here: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/tag/1tim2/ )
    Remember that Jesus warned all his followers about exercising authority: “Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you. – Mark 10:42-43 (Also in Matt 20:25-26 and Luke 22:25-26”
    If no follower of Jesus should exercise authority, the same thing could be repeated to women/ a woman. Male Christians should not do it either!
    #5-6 I already answered about Titus 2, but I sum it up in “Myth: Titus 2:4-5 commands women to obey their husbands, to stay at home, and to love their husbands and children.” here: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/?s=Titus+2
    Many people from groups like Vision Forum also finds “the context of Titus 2: Evi, the Titus 2 keeper and the toy aeroplane”, also among the links on that page, useful.
    But I say that to those who will listen, not to answer you. You don’t deserve an answer to six numbered points, as you did not answer my 5 numbered points (even though my points directly drew from your assertions, and yours did not even come from mine. You never showed texts on career success for women, male providers, single women’s roles, or texts that say men are supposed to be leaders. And Titus 2 don’t prove “orbiting”, only that women should be taught skills for home use.)
    But you may notice my willingness to take all these texts on what they plainly say, except that one of them is translated badly – it just so happens that the most common word in English for the body part above the neck (the word “head”) share a meaning (leadership) that it did not have in Greek. So I take the plain Greek there.

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  23. Gary Fore,

    I must say that I fully agree with how Retha broke this down, pretty academically, too, I may say.

    Especially that a woman’s desire will be for man INSTEAD OF God.

    And there is BIBLICAL evidence for that in this:

    1 Corinthians 7:34
    There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

    But, really, who can convince Gary of anything? Based on that verse, no one should get married. Period. Right, Gary?

    Thanks so much Retha. You KNOW your Bible!!!!!!

    Ed

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  24. Oh, Gary Fore,

    In case you were thinking that my reference of 1 Cor only pertains to women, in order to give the justification that Man is the SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER THE WOMAN, then look at the PREVIOUS verse, which states:

    1 Corinthians 7:33
    But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

    So, you care for the things of the world to please your wife, just as the wife cares for the things of the world to please you.

    So, my advice is that you get divorced as soon as possible so that you can stop pleasing your wife, and she stop pleasing you. Then you and her will start caring for the things of the Lord!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    Your all about “RELIGION”, Gary. Relax and stop walking on eggshells, dude!! Get away from religion. I can’t believe that you need a rule book on how to live your life.

    Step 1. Wake up
    Step 2. Crawl out of bed
    Step 3. Put on slippers
    Step 4. Walk to the bathroom
    Step 5. Lift the toilet seat, because the woman left it down.
    Step 6. Put the toilet seat down, otherwise the woman will fall in.
    Step 7. Make Coffee.
    Step 8. Check your email.

    There’s your rules, Gary!! If you forget to make the coffee, your doomed to hell.

    I’m sure you can complete the steps.

    Ed

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  25. Oh, Gary…

    I forgot…the rules aren’t for you…they are for your wife…I get it….You are rule free. Your wife is under your rule.

    Well, order your wife to make the coffee. If she forgets, she’s doomed to hell.

    You are funny, Gary.

    Ed

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  26. Gary Fore– My grandmother, now in Heaven, would have said this, and did say it to a good many like you:
    When God wants me to follow your notions instead of following the leading of His Spirit within, He’ll tell me. He won’t tell you.
    I was reading my Bible before you were out of short pants, laddie; and don’t you forget it.

    Sheesh. Some people can’t bear not to try to push their pet agendas around, I guess….

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  27. You forgot the sandwich, Ed.
    I find the rhetorical devices Gary uses so illuminating. First, there is the assumption that I read the Bible as he does, that is, as inerrant text. Second, the assumption that whether or not it is read as inerrant, there is only way to interrogate the text — his way, which he asserts is God’s way. Third, notice how he steps so easily into the role of intermediary between me and God so that in scorning Gary’s interpretation I therefore scorn God? As someone with lady parts, I must submit to his maleness because someone with lady parts who does not submit to that maleness scorns God. Once he declares his assumed God-ordained right to tell me what the Bible says, I am silenced and if I refuse, in the theology according to Gary, I scorn God and am damned. Nifty, huh?

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  28. Ruth’s comments at 9:52 prompt me to observe: Gary Fore probably does not realize what he is doing, but it seems that people like him have an idolatrous devotion to the Bible, Paul, supposed authority, and the theological traditions of men, (i.e., their own interpretations). It is all mind and logic and power and law, except for the law of Love.

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  29. Concerned Dad:

    What I see here is a lot of people telling you what you should and should not do. The advice may or may not be biblical. But the point is…they are PEOPLE. Just like Doug Phillips! What will you do if you follow one of them and realize later down the road that THEY were wrong, too? This should be a wake-up call to us all that we are idolaters at heart. We may not be bowing down to a golden calf as the children of Israel did, but we want to put man on the throne rather than GOD. What should you do differently? Start by dethroning man and putting God back on the throne of your heart. Then take a serious look at a variety of Christian teachings and dig DEEPLY into the Word to see what is true! Or, better yet, START by digging into God’s Word yourself!

    Personally, I believe many (NOT all) things that DP taught were biblical or valuable in a practical sense…taught by an extremely hypocritical man. But thankfully, I am also having to go back and double-check to make sure whatever teachings I held to truly were biblical. We are all idolaters at heart and I’m sure some things slipped in that I did not fully evaluate against Scripture. I see this as a good thing and it does not shake me…only sharpens me. Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:1…”Be imitators of me, AS I AM OF CHRIST.” That last phrase is the key! Keep your eyes on Christ…not on the teachings or random opinions of others, not on the cultural norms (even within the Christian community)…on Christ ALONE!

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  30. It’s amazing how some men try to elevate themselves into the position of being god on earth. If we scorn or disobey men, we are scorning or disobeying God, therefore, they equate themselves as being God. Didn’t Satan once say that he was wanting to exalt himself above God (Isaiah 14:12-17); and also doesn’t the Bible say that the Antichrist will claim to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) ?

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  31. Hi all, I’ve been away and had to catch up on this long thread. I’m DELIGHTED to read Ruth’s comments- I bet Julie Anne isn’t surprised – as they so closely match my own opinions and seem to be contrary to so many other opinions expressed on here.
    As a wife, mother of three young career women and one son (who’s married to a nurse), grandmother of (almost) ten, public school teacher and staunch feminist (in my mid-50’s) I have had my FILL of power politics. People would be so much better off accepting people as they are and forgetting about ‘roles’; especially if your inspiration and direction is coming from a 2000-year-old book! Get with the program, folks!
    I am hoping that one of the messages readers are getting from this discussion is that education (no matter how it’s obtained) is empowering. For every person. Get as much as you can, from travelling, studying, and critical thinking. Use the brain you’ve got to THINK for yourself.
    And thanks, Ruth! I’ll bet Julie Anne is grinning, too.

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  32. Dave A A, about 24 hours ago, wrote:
    “Gary Fore: “As to scripture to prove the roles. Genesis 1-2, many other OT sections make the roles clear,” etc
    Well- I’ll give my opinion on these first, I guess.
    How many commands does God give to Man in the first 5 chapters of Genesis and what are they? 1 == YOU MAY FREELY EAT OF ANY TREE IN THE GARDEN — Except — not THAT one. Both Moses and God call this, and nothing else, a command, until we get to Noah in Ch 6. Be fruitful and multiply etc is a BLESSING, not a command.
    Primary teaching of Jesus from 1st 5 chapters (and Paul as well) == THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE (2 quotes by each). Unity– not roles– of man and woman is the emphasis.
    What God has joined together let not man put asunder.

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  33. Thanks folks for the comments – obviously we are all wasting our time, so I will let you have it all. As my pastor said a few months ago, I have stopped wasting my time responding to the blogs for no one wants to accept the authority of Holy Scripture.

    Retha cleared up what I was beginning to suspect when she wrote”

    “I find the rhetorical devices Gary uses so illuminating. First, there is the assumption that I read the Bible as he does, that is, as inerrant text”

    That closes it all out. We have nothing more to discuss because we understand two different authorities. We will have to wait until the next life to find out who was right.

    Thanks for all the insights. It has been helpful to understand how those who do not view all of Scripture as inerrant think. Problem is you are on shifting sand. It never stops shifting.

    Have good day,

    Gary

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  34. Gary Fore,

    Not all of us reject the inerrancy of Scripture. What I reject is the inerrancy of your fundamentalist, love free, interpretation of Scripture. You are obviously a heretic. But don’t be offended. None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture. We are all heretics. However, your devotion to a particular understanding of Scripture appears to me to be idolatrous, as evidenced, again, by the fact that it is uniformed by Love. You have placed your faith in right thinking and in mechanical compliance with a set of rules and regulations, as though Paul were the new Moses. I have placed my faith in Jesus, Who is Love, and I read even Paul through the lens of Love. Otherwise, I must accept even slavery as consistent with the perfect will of God.

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  35. Gary Fore: We are all wasting our time? No one wants to accept the authority of Holy Scripture? We have nothing more to discuss because we understand two different authorities? I understand the authority of the living Christ who has given us the very Spirit of God– do you understand some other authority?

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  36. What does this exactly mean: inerrancy of scripture?

    The reason I ask is that you could take 2 different translations and the wording can give a completely different meaning.

    So, which one is right? Doesn’t one have to be wrong? See where I’m going with this? And who decides which translation is right or wrong? Isn’t it man who interprets that? But wait . . . men are not perfect . . . . so now what?

    Please, Gary Fore, before you go, will you address this issue. Thanks!

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  37. The strong statements on inerrancy, and the only defensible position on inerrancy, is that the scripture, in the original writing of it, is inerrant. The problem arises in that we do not not have the original writings, but copies, of copies, of copies, some with marginal notes aparently added into the text of the next copy. And then we deal with translations, and with ancient languages with different tenses and structures than are in our language. An example: In many languages, including those in which the Bible books were first written, the plural form is masculine, even if it refers to a mixed group of one male and 100 females. And the indefinite singular is also the masculine form. So many verses in English refer to a male when the indefinite “one” should be used, or “brothers and sisters” rather than just “brothers”, or “men and women” rather than just “men”.

    No responsible theologian believes that the Bible in English is inerrant!!!!

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  38. Julie Anne– I really don’t think it’s a translation issue in most cases. For example, one translation may say all Scripture is God-Breathed and another says it is inspired or God, and one may say Scripture is profitable and another say it’s useful. I believe both of these and much else about Scripture. Cannot be broken– check. Fulfilled– check. Sharper than two-edged sword — well– that’s talking about the Word of God, who isn’t precisely the same, but– check. HOWEVER, NOT ONE translation in ANY verse in my 17+ translation online parallel Bible says Scripture is “inerrant text” or any synonym!
    I’m sorely tempted to lose my patience here, seeing as Gary Fore’s comment totally ignored my comment immediately above it, just like the one 24 hours before. Is there some strange SSB program which makes my comments invisible to him?
    But then I remember the “Apostles Teaching” of our brother Peter:
    “And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”

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  39. Dave A A – don’t you think that perhaps Gary Fore is not replying because he CANNOT accept any other interpretation of the Bible than his own? He obviously has his mind made up completely, and it doesn’t matter how logical, well-presented, or sensible the argument is from anyone else, HIS thinking is impermeable. Zealots are like that.
    Sorta like I am about women’s rights. .. .smile. . but at least I admit it.

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  40. Is there some strange SSB program which makes my comments invisible to him?

    I will have my richly paid team of tech guys look into this right away, Dave A A. There must be a tech glitch.

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  41. Carmen– I have decided that I now believe the Bible (when *properly* understood) is IMPERMEABLE! The Bible says it is! And that settles it for me! Adding IMPERMEABLE! to my very first article of faith, along with Perspicuous. You know, I actually have some complimentarian (spelling purposefully chosen) leanings with which Gary F might agree… And by kids and grandkids consider me sort of a Patriarch… sigh… Going way back in the comments, two of the primary characteristics of the original Patriarchs, as pointed out by Stephen to jealous men intent on murdering him, were jealousy and murder… sigh…

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  42. So, Gary Fore has a DIFFERENT definition of inerrancy of scripture. He has a different Jesus and a different gospel. His definition of inerrancy of scripture is: Whatever his pastor tells him that it is.

    The sky is blue. We know that to be true.

    The sky is yellow. We know that to be false.

    But if a pastor tells Gary Fore that the sky is yellow, to Gary Fore, that is true…all because a pastor (Who he thinks is the one who preaches truth) tells him.

    Gary Fore does not have a mind of his own…he uses his pastor’s mind instead, and he doesn’t question authority. So sad.

    Ed

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  43. Julie Anne,

    Gary Fore said this in his first paragraph:

    “As my pastor said a few months ago, I have stopped wasting my time responding to the blogs for no one wants to accept the authority of Holy Scripture.”

    We ALL know scripture is the authority. So, I don’t know where Gary or his pastor originate that argument.

    As I said in another of your blog posts, we have Romans Chapter 3 that states that no one is righteous, no not one, when I can find verses that states that many were righteous.

    Or, how about that Jesus said that no one is good, and yet, Joseph of Arimathea was good.

    It goes the same with this topic about men ruling over women. We do not believe that Gary is properly interpreting the authority of scripture. But we both agree that the Bible is the Authority. However, he is attempting to tell us that we do not believe that the Bible is the authority.

    I’ve never read a Christian blog that states that the Bible isn’t the authority. So where does he come up with the argument? IDK. But, if he’s gone, we will never know. He picks and chooses who he responds to, anyway.

    Ed

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  44. @Maria:

    I am listening to John Bradshaw on Healing the Shame that Binds You. He explains that control is a cover-up for shame. If you can control everybody then they can never catch you off guard so your shame will never be exposed.

    Like blackmail, shame requires a third party.

    “If nobody knows about my sin, I Am Not Shamed.”

    (Add “…and Dead Men Tell No Tales” and you have a Middle Eastern Blood Feud all ready to roll.)

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  45. Gary Fore said the following phrases:

    Ruth – you obviously scorn the words that God says. So your mockery is in His face, not mine.

    So, if you reject that authority, His authority, then, there is nothing more to say. You can laughg( scorn), but someday, you will not be laughing. It will be Him with which you have to do. Heb 4:12-13.

    God designed the order. Go ahead and reject it – you will have to face Him over it someday. Sadly, for you, you will not escape Him. It won’t be pretty.

    I smell a Hellfire-and-Damnation threat. AKA “God WIll Punish You!”

    Apparently God is Gary Fore’s personal Enforcer. (Like the world’s biggest Invisible Stalker spell.)

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  46. @JA:

    When I talk Homeschool Movement, I’m not just talking about Doug Phillips, but a whole lot of men who follow similar ideologies. I’m going to keep going back to it, but these leaders are fueled by the Reconstructionist ideologies. This means Old Testament laws are more valid to them than what Jesus did.

    This means they are Commanders of Holy Gilead in waiting.
    Wannabe Christian Mullah Omars, eager to rule by Divine Right over the Perfect Christian Nation instead of the Perfect Islamic Republic.

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  47. Note that Gary blamed women for emasculating men. Gary is spouting the Fundy party politics. Which is always amusing as it gives women power over his masculinity.

    They’re after his Precious Bodily Fluids(TM).

    Which reminds me of a peppy little tune from Dr Demento many-many years ago (whose YouTube versions never have good sound quality):

    Bwahahahhahaha!

    Here come the lesbians!
    Here come the leaping lesbians!
    We’re going to please you, tease you
    Hypnotize you, try to squeeze you
    We’re going to get you if we can!
    Here come the lesbians!

    Don’t go and try to fight it
    Run away or try to hide it
    We want your loving; that’s our plan!
    Here come the lesbians!

    Ah-ah-ah
    Don’t look in the closet!
    Ah-ah-ah
    Who’s creeping down the stairs?
    Ah-ah-ah
    Who’s slipping up behind you?
    Ah-ah-ah
    Watch out; better beware!

    Ice fingers feeling, stealing
    Reaching out from floor to ceiling
    You can’t escape; you’re in our hands!
    Here come the lesbians!

    Inside your heart is racing
    When you see our shadow’s chasing
    Here come the lesbians!
    (Here come the lesbians!)
    Here come the lesbians!
    (Here come the lesbians!)
    The leaping lesbians…

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  48. I just don’t understand the thinking that somehow college equates to education. We have to come to an understanding of what true education is. What does the Bible say about education? I get the sense from what I read so far is that we are deeply indoctrinated with the world’s idea of education. Let’s get back to the Bible.

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  49. You say “let’s get back to the Bible.” What does the Bible say is education? I think the Bible speaks of certain forms of training and wisdom, but never speaks much about job skills and career knowledge, except to say we should use our time and talents and gifts well. It goes without saying that getting the right kind of college education could help some people to use their time, talents and gifts for God. God had no problem with skilled workers and asked, for example, some skilled craftsmen to help with the temple of Solomon.

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  50. Retha, that’s my point. What jobs do college really prepare you for? Very few, except for engineering and maybe a couple others. The vast majority of degrees are worthless when it comes for earning a living.

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  51. Carmen, perhaps “worthless” is a little strong. How about “lacking in preparing our children for a good job?”

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  52. Adam, that would not be my take on post-secondary education at all. Having four children with college/university degrees and knowing many of their friends who also are well-educated, I can tell you that most, if not all, have great jobs and successful careers. I am consistently amazed at the incredible and interesting vocations some of these young people are experiencing; many of them are also travelling and meeting all sorts of people. The best part is, some of them still come to visit us and tell us about their adventures!

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  53. Carmen, that is wonderful news for your children and their friends. I know of some, too. But, there are many who have been sold on college as the gateway to a “good job” who have not this success, having to work part-time jobs that do not need a college education and have to live with their parents. And more and more this is becoming the norm, not the exception. Just read the papers. And not only that, they are graduating (if they graduate) with mountains of debt that virtually assures them they will never own a home. I know this because I’m a mortgage consultant.

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  54. A part of me leaps to Carmen’s defense (shocking I know ). I maintain that for those who can get through it with minimum debt and who have the ambition/inclination, college remains both a wonderful experience and a necessary per-requisite to advancement in most professions — more necessary than ever as the US sees the erosion of military and federal government employment and middle-class manufacturing. College isn’t supposed to teach you how to be a Vice President of Development, a law librarian, or a senior budget analyst for a municipality — though it is supposed to prepare you intellectually and emotionally to grow into those and other professions. You learn to write, read and think critically, acquire social skills, and develop science and quantitative literacy.

    Nevertheless, it is certainly true that spiraling costs and struggling economy have made college a poor choice for some persons. But mounting that legitimate critique is different from saying college is bad/worthless because it is not in the Bible or conversely that college can only be good if precedents for it can be construed from the Bible. Is that the argument that is being put forth?

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  55. Ruth, no one said that college was “bad/worthless because it was not in the Bible” nor “that college can be good if precedents for it can be construed from the Bible.” But, we have to think thru what education is according to the Bible. I suggest we all do our own study of this. You say that college is “supposed to prepare you intellectually and emotionally to grow into…professions. You learn to read and think critically, acquire social skills, and develop science and quantitative literacy.” These all can be attained without running up debt or draining the parent’s bank account over 5 years at some campus away from the family. The reason so many families adopt this model and send their children away from the family because “that’s what everyone seems to be doing.” I don’t think they really think it thru. In today’s economy (and I fear it will stay this way for a while), this just isn’t a smart model for educating oneself either financially nor practically. With the rise of the internet (think autodidact), CLEP, testing out, local community technical certificate programs, and the like, it just makes more sense today to jettison this method of educating our young.

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  56. Adam (5:10pm, 15th) Setting aside the outrageous expense that upper level education has become in our society, which is a different problem altogether, you are simply incorrect.

    We learn best when we are face to face with teachers and amongst peers. This is because we are relational creatures and because we live in a physical world. Schools together with practicums/apprenticeships have been, throughout human history, the prime way to learn to think systematically, to be given the tools for an accurate view of reality, and to practice our knowledge into skills.

    Second best is to learn individually through books and online learning. It can be done, but it is often done poorly, and it is not practical learning. I am glad of the internet and for libraries for those who are not able to learn through schools, but I would never say that it is the preferred method. I am also glad of the internet and libraries to learn what I could not get in college/university because they bolster and deepen the knowledge-paths I was set on by wonderful teachers.

    So you are also incorrect to say that people do it “because that’s what everyone seems to be doing”. People do it because it is a good way to learn and because it was de rigueur before the economy, our gov’t, and education was destroyed by neoliberals and/or neoconservatives (whichever label you prefer).

    Did you go to school or learn online? You have not had a good education, and I recommend you go back to learn logic and work on recomposing a world view that is big enough to include all the universe, of which God made all. Nothing less will do.

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  57. Adam,

    I think that part of the problem is that kids, these days, want to be an executive, right out of college, instead of starting at the bottom and working up. College Education is always great. It’s the students expectation that gets in the way of a successful life. College debt isn’t new. Part time jobs for college students isn’t new. Living in the parents house during college isn’t new. Frat parties isn’t new. Spring Break isn’t new. But the graduate, today, does not wish to start out in the mail-room, as he/she thinks that they are entitled, due to that degree. Draining the parent’s bank account isn’t new. College costs money for a variety of reasons. I have no idea why the Bible is even being included in the conversation about what an education is. The Apostle Paul, who was Saul, was taught by a DOCTOR of the Law. That’s pretty formal if you ask me. College Educated. Seems like you are trying to indicate that the Bible is against college education?????

    However, since you say that you are a mortgage consultant, then maybe one class that they should have taken was a budgeting class. We all know that we cannot live beyond our means. But if one budgets…and another doesn’t…the one who budgets will get that house, even with a mountain of debt from college loans, etc.

    Advice:
    Buy used cars from Craig’s List, but not from a car dealer
    Buy used furniture at garage sales, etc., and not from a Furniture Store Liquidation sale.

    Ton’s of ways to save money, while getting that expensive college education so that you can buy a house when you are ready to buy a house.

    A college graduate doesn’t need to buy a house as soon as graduation. But budgeting will get you far.

    Ed

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  58. Ed, my child is a recent college grad. All of her friends came out with 10-30 K in debts even while working part time throughout (from public institutions). There are only a handful of ~100 grads (I used to teach, so also keep tabs on others) who have found jobs in their field and the rest are now working in service jobs and many of them part time. They all drive old cars. They live together in apts to cut rent. They shop almost exclusively at second hand stores and have gardens wherever they go. I have been teaching them to can/freeze. Mortgages are not even on their screen.

    They are scrimping to pay off their debts because they are responsible kids. One fell into a health hole and now has an additional 6k in debt and the problem is not yet solved. Having nowhere to go, many of them are considering further education in specialized fields which, of course, will only add to the debt and that terrifies them.

    I am in the Detroit area, which is worse than many places in the country, but this is a national problem. Things are not as they used to be.

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  59. Patrice

    What I see around our area (increasing also) are single moms by choice (more $ from Uncle Sam than if they were married) that have up to 4 kids because that’s the maximum Obama will pay for. One I work with makes 28K a year salary,(she knows exactly how much she can earn to get the most perks) gets free health care, paid housing, food stamps, day care, free online associate degrees (to prove they are trying to get work) etc. In fact, she gets more back then she pays in taxes on her 28K job… All in all she states it is as if she earns about 65-75K a year. never went to college-first kid at 16. She’s now 25. At least she is working. Many are not.
    I see many of these moms during the day at a nearby moderate priced restaurant sipping margaritas while the college kids trying to pay back their student loans are taking their orders
    It is sad to have these college grads in this situation while there are those who rip off the system who will never work, and live off the government. Something is wrong.

    It used to be that there was a true need..now it is a vocation to take the easy way. That is if you have a functioning uterus.

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  60. PS. We know a young man of 20 that works for his dad. Dad is a Christian. Dad was an immigrant and hard worker. was saved and delivered from alcoholism.
    Son gets girlfriend pregnant, and tells us he is not getting married cause he will lose government benefits.
    Marriage is a dying institution with our youth.
    Forget the moral implications of child out of wedlock.
    Believe it or not the son says he is a Christian.
    I guess if he made a profession of faith, that can’t be taken away.

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  61. Oh, also iphone bills are paid for. And I believe the phone itself is even paid for. Will have to check but this person seems to crack her iphone frequently and gets it replaced.

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  62. JA- I wasn’t speaking of women trapped in abusive relationships.

    It wasa contrast to the discussion on unemployment for college grads with high loans.

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  63. Patrice,

    I hear ya!! This is indeed a reality for some. And, it is indeed my point. What was the expectation of the graduate? A high paying job from the word “Graduated”?

    The job market, economy, LOCATION (i.e., Detroit) makes a big difference on if and when one will land that high paying job.

    I think my point is this: Rethink your after Graduation expectations, and make a HUGE list of alternatives. A person does NOT have to scrimp, like you mention. If a door opens in California, then close the door in Detroit.

    My ex-wife has a great saying…You Get What You Settle For

    Ed

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  64. Patrice,

    Hannah brings up a good point. How many have an iPhone? How much money per month does that cost? Unlimited this, and unlimited that, etc. Throw that phone in the trash. Get a Magic Jack…After that, pay a $100 fee, getting 5 years of free phone calls. No hidden costs, etc. I have one. Always try to find ways to save HUGE amounts of money over the long term. How many have a big screen TV that they “can’t live without”, etc.

    All these hi-tech toys, that they just cannot live without?

    Ed

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  65. Now that I read some recent comments again, I notice false accusations against me: I understand the Bible differently from Gary, and asks him difficult questions he cannot answer. Gary quotes Ruth, and calls her words my words: “Retha cleared up what I was beginning to suspect when she wrote”
    “I find the rhetorical devices Gary uses so illuminating. First, there is the assumption that I read the Bible as he does, that is, as inerrant text” ”

    Stop committing false testimony, Gary Fore: I never said that.
    Those were not my words, but now Gary can say he don’t have to answer me or any of us and can disappear with his holier-than-thou attitude intact: He is clearly better and more right than any of us because I (actually, Ruth) said that of the Bible. And he don’t have to answer anyone, he don’t even have to read enough to ascribe the correct name to text (he called me Reba earlier, now he calls Ruth Retha).

    How much do we trust the Bible reading of a man who puts that level of carefulness into his reading?

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  66. Julie Anne…That’s why you are the “smart” one!! My cell phone is pretty dumb. It’s just a track phone, pay as you go.

    I try to use my dumb cell phone for work purposes only, and I use my Magic Jack as a home phone.

    But for your job…it’s a need.

    Ed

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  67. Jason Bassett December 15th @ 3:06pm linked the Nathaniel Darnell article — hope you’re still reading since the conversation is going down another track. He does say some good things in the article. But I think he’s still making (or buying) some colossal assumptions with his “When Soldiers Fall”. Here’s Darnell’s main point:
    “However, it appears that the Lord often in His providence has had mighty Christian leaders fall in big ways if only to remind the Body of Christ not to make an idolatry of men. God did amazing miracles and exploits through men such as Moses and David, and yet such men also flubbed in some royal ways. When we see God raise up a man and do amazing things through him, it is so easy for us to begin to focus on the man and forget that it was God who raised him up and empowered him. Soon, we are giving glory to man rather than God, and coming to rely more on him than on the Lord and His Word. God has great men fail in his providence to teach us the lesson that we should never put our faith in a man—even a great man of God—ahead of Him. Doing so is simply idolatry.”
    First, he assumes Phillips is some sort of war casualty. So God made Doug “fall” for the greater good– to teach us a lesson? Doug’s “fall” is collateral damage. We can’t blame him– God has great men fall!
    There’s another assumption– far from proven, which is that Doug is (or was) a “soldier”, a mighty Christian leader, is comparable to Moses and David, was raised up and empowered by God, and is/was a great man of God. Or, just maybe, he’s a wolf who pulled lots of wool over lots of eyes.
    And an assumption– far from proven– that Doug’s battle is just– he just failed in execution. A little too much pride, too little accountability etc.

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  68. Nathaniel Darnell was Doug Phillips’ intern. He drank that thick KoolAid. He talks about a fall. No, it’s not about his little sin of the affair with the nanny. Doug Phillips is a false teacher – a wolf – who spiritually abused countless people – not only those in his own church, but scores and scores of people who bought into his legalism and extra-Biblical teachings, keeping women and daughters in bondage, being ruled over by their Patriarchal father.

    And there’s my big spew of the day.

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  69. Education is not a bad thing, it’s beneficial. Besides loans, there are ways (savings, $ from job, employer paid, scholarships, 529 savings plans, parents, etc.) to pursue higher education. Yes, there should be a cost/benefit analysis. More & more entry-level jobs require a college degree just to get in the door. Certain technical jobs also require training beyond a high-school degree.

    “What does the Bible say about education? I get the sense from what I read so far is that we are deeply indoctrinated with the world’s idea of education. Let’s get back to the Bible.”

    Adam, I don’t understand “either/or” thinking about the Bible & education. That baffles me. Do you expect your pastor to perform surgery or prescribe your medication?

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  70. chapmaned: my daughter and friends? None of them have cable tv and they all have a computer of one sort or another. Some have iphones and I’ve been asking about them today. Most of their cell phones (iphone or otherwise) are through their parents’ family plans (that is, they pay their folks their portion of that cost or their parents pay–it varies) and some pay an extra $20 for internet access. I will tell them about Magic Jacks.

    You are very hard on these kids who are actually better people than I was at their age. There is much need in Detroit and the ones who are here right now would like to help. Moreover, it is not outrageous to want a job in the field that one has trained, towards which they’ve spent years and globs of money. I am not talking at all about “expecting a high paying” job but merely an entry level job in their fields. But they are currently reduced to service jobs. My daughter is going back to school for hydrology through the engineering end because that is a field not yet saturated.

    Yes, Detroit is particularly bad but my daughter has friends in NYC, Seattle, Philadelphia, Santa Barbara, and somewhere in North Carolina (sorry, can’t remember the town) who face similar difficulties. These kids HAVE to scrimp if they are to pay back their loans. I will not pick on them for what they spend on computer tech–it is their only luxury and also tied to the way they do relationships.

    This is the reality behind the stereotype of all those millenials who sit in their parents’ basements. This is why there are so many student loans not being paid. It is a huge hidden problem.

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  71. “Nathaniel Darnell was Doug Phillips’ intern. He drank that thick KoolAid. He talks about a fall. No, it’s not about his little sin of the affair with the nanny. Doug Phillips is a false teacher – a wolf – who spiritually abused countless people – not only those in his own church, but scores and scores of people who bought into his legalism and extra-Biblical teachings, keeping women and daughters in bondage, being ruled over by their Patriarchal father.”

    Hello! Why is it that when a celebrity preacher has an affair (this one 10years?) it’s called a fall, BUT when a follower has an affair it’s called a serious sin?

    The questions I have for followers of his teaching: Why is God to blame when a celebrity preacher has an affair? How does DP’s sin glorify God? If it does, shouldn’t we sin away to the best of our ability? God makes great men have affairs? Is it really God’s fault, not DP’s? Many comments that recommend we follow the teachings & not the teacher explain it away with these types of reasons….

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  72. “Those were not my words, but now Gary can say he don’t have to answer me or any of us and can disappear with his holier-than-thou attitude intact: He is clearly better and more right than any of us because I (actually, Ruth) said that of the Bible. And he don’t have to answer anyone, he don’t even have to read enough to ascribe the correct name to text (he called me Reba earlier, now he calls Ruth Retha).

    How much do we trust the Bible reading of a man who puts that level of carefulness into his reading?”
    I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him.
    Actually, I wanted to say, I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw a deranged emu on steroids, but I thought that might confuse him. (Besides, even I know when I’m getting too snarky).

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  73. Looks like VFM didn’t shut down after all. Even though the Hazardous Journeys Society website is down, the teams are still being deployed. Photo album from trip photographer: http://goo.gl/4vM6kL

    Still living the dream!!!


    Phillips vision lives on… http://vimeo.com/62821855

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  74. My heart and prayers go out to those that have been poorly affected by the sins of DP and folding of VF. My husband and I were previously theonomists and reconstructionists. We still have many friends that are, and know many in those circles. My husband wrote a book that explains what is wrong with that theology, and I would like to share the link where it is provided free of charge to read on-line. http://www.crownrights.com/store/reconstruction.php

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  75. Because nothing says, “independent thought” like following some OTHER man just because he is a patriarchal Christian. How about all of us Christian homeschoolers stop following other people on this Earth like they are demo-gods and figure some things out for ourselves?

    Like

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