Beaverton Grace Bible Church, BGBC Lawsuit, Grace Community Church, John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Tony Miano, Troubling Tweets, Women and the Church

Question for Tony Miano: Did Joni Preach?

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Tony Miano, author of Should She Preach?, attended John MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference at Grace Community Church, along with Pastor Chuck O’Neal (suing pastor who had minister’s license revoked and currently in discipline), Phil Johnson, Dr. Steve Lawson, all of whom contributed to Miano’s book.

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Joni Earekson Tada spoke at the Strange Fire Conference


The question is:

Did She Preach?

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Click to see pic of BGBC members and Miano in the same pew at Strange Fire Conf

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Below is the video of Tada speaking at the conference:

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Listen in particular around the 20-minute mark.  She reads scripture and expounds on it.   Is she not teaching/preaching?  This is exactly what I hear pastors do.  But wait . . . she’s a woman!

Now, don’t get me wrong.  I do not have any problem with Joni taking the podium.   I loved listening to her testimony, how she spontaneously broke out into singing hymns,  how she has navigated her very challenging life of paralysis.  She’s very inspiring and I’ve always been encouraged by her faith.

Tada was asked to take the podium by her friend, Pastor John MacArthur, to promote the message of his conference, his agenda – to call out charismatics as false doctrine.


One of the disappointing patterns I see among church leaders is one of giving free passes:  if you hold to the “correct” doctrine, other hypocrisies will be overlooked (ie, “forgetting” to notify civil authorities about sex abuse, excusing the fact that a pastor sued former church members, etc).

It’s not right that they get a free pass to do what they tell others not to do simply because they are church leaders or in the public spotlight.  I’m not going to overlook these hypocrisies. If these guys are going to be so black and white, writing books about women preaching/teaching, I will challenge it when I see the blatant inconsistencies.

I would like to hear your thoughts.  Does it sound like Tada was teaching using scripture?  Did Joni Eareckson Tada get a free pass to teach/preach because Dr. MacArthur “approved’ of it or she has the “right” doctrinal beliefs regarding charismatics? Is that why Phil Johnson, Dr. Steve Lawson, Chuck O’Neal, and Tony Miano could sit comfortably under (whoa!  I just typed “under,” I can hear the moans and groans now) her teaching?

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Related article:

Strange Fire Conference: John MacArthur, “Reformed Theology is not a Haven for False Teachers”

120 thoughts on “Question for Tony Miano: Did Joni Preach?”

  1. Yes she did. she gave a scripture and expounded on it. that’s preaching/teaching. Quite hypocritical though since they were promoting a book that says women shouldn’t even do evangelism. Wonder what they all think about Mary running to tell the disciples Jesus was alive.


  2. Reblogged this on Paul's Passing Thoughts and commented:
    Yes Julie, Joni not only preached at Strange Fire, she preached a real sermon at Crystal Cathedral, and it was an in-your-face Gospel Sanctification authentic Calvinist message of daily living by the cross.


  3. She IS assuming authority here, she IS teaching God’s word; so those who are in the audience ARE sitting under her teaching. How hypocritical! And Tonya holds up the book with that fake, plastic smile! This is an absolute picture of hypocrisy at its finest. However, they will excuse it as ‘testimony’. These men continually speak out of both sides of their mouth, they exalt their views and twist on scripture and we all MUST adhere to that. It appears having ‘knowledge’ and being puffed up is the theme of the day.

    Tony Miano sits in the audience, with O’Neal’s family {where is his own wife and daughters?} hears the word of God taught by a woman, even after he INSISTS women cannot preach or teach within the church or out in public, and he says NOTHING! That tells you this guy doesn’t even adhere to what he says is truth. If he really believes what he says he does, why didn’t he get up and walk out? In my opinion, he only wants to make a name for himself, rub elbows with the ‘big wigs’, sell some books, and achieve that ‘celebrity pastor/evangelist’ status that so many in our day have.

    Much of what passes itself off as Christianity in this present day is anything but. Men praising each other, exalting each other, setting themselves up as THE authority over others. Their fans defending their celebrity pastor, attacking those who dare expose this whole mess, and on and on it goes. They have forgotten 1 Corinthians 13, they have forgotten the great commandment found in Matthew 22:37-39, and Phil. 2:3-4, they have forgotten the command to serve one another, strive for unity, and be of one mind.

    Miano’s book is divisive, it is based on his personal view and a very poor eisegesis of the word of God. His claim that 1 Timothy 2:12 goes beyond the ‘church walls’ is absolutely not supported by the word of God. It is my opinion that those who endorse this book come under question as well. From Miano’s blog, “The Lord blessed me in so many ways this week as I attended the Strange Fire conference, at Grace Community Church, in Sun Valley, CA. The conference has caused no small stir in the Christians community.”
    – {}

    So, apparently he was blessed sitting under the teaching of a woman.

    It certainly is NOT going to get any better, the aggression will grow and the hatred will increase.

    Thank you JA for pointing out this huge hypocrisy. I think we’ll be able to hear many pins drop in the Miano camp.


  4. Uh, ya, specifically, she preached the Sunday morning service. It was a sermon on Gospel Sanctification.


  5. I may have jumped the gun, for we don’t know for certain that Tony was present during this teaching by Tada. With that in mind, I can’t really speak out against Miano without even knowing if he’s there.


  6. Whatever, Jmac once said that wherever a women preached, God was not present. Tada has been a follower of Jmac for years and was once a member of his church. These people make their own rules as they go.


  7. Whether Miano was present while Tada was speaking makes no difference. Chuck O’Neal (who wrote the foreward) was in attendance. Mrs. O’Neal brought the book with her to the conference (pictured above). Phil Johnson and Dr. Lawson were there in attendance. I haven’t seen any of them tweeting about the inappropriateness of a woman preaching/teaching? Why not? Because her doctrine was right? Because she said the right thing about the charismatic healing service that she had attended and didn’t get healed?

    Edited to add: I just found this from Tony’s blog in reference to attending the Strange Fire conference:

    And, of course, there was spending each day with my dear friend Pastor Chuck O’Neal and the Beaverton Grace Bible Church family as we sat together under wonderful teaching, fellowshipped with one another, broke bread together, worshiped and prayed (Acts 2:42).


  8. ….or, all the men there could simply sanctify what she did by saying they didn’t learn anything from her.


  9. My former pastor was very proud of the fact that John MacArthur mentored him, the likeness between them leaves me cold, the video that Paul posted is eerily familiar.

    A random thought: God could have sent Jesus into the world in many ways, He is creative like that. To think the Lord used a lowly women to bring Christ into the world must piss the likes of JMAC off.
    My stomach turns at the hypocrisy of these leaders, why on earth did they let Joni speak/teach if they were sticking to their rules? Can they not see how ridiculous they are? No, I know that they don’t see.
    So we wait, till the day that will eventually come, when Jesus humbles the proud and gives grace to the humble. Meanwhile God bless the bloggers on the front lines exposing them.


  10. Truth is truth, regardless of the gender presenting it.
    As the Bible contains examples of women, who, with God’s approval, told males the Gospel, how can any of these men object to women also telling other people of the Gospel?

    Is it a matter of numbers, that they are opposed to a lone woman speaking to a group of say, fifty people, and while in a church setting?

    What if an atheist man and a Christian woman are the only survivors of a plane crash, come ashore on a dessert island, would these gender complementarians be opposed to the woman telling that atheist island companion about Jesus? If so, why?

    If not, if they are not bothered by a single woman telling a single man about Jesus, why would they come up with arbitrary rules about how many men women can share the Gospel with at one time, or in what venue (island vs street vs church setting)? The complementarians are attempting to put limits and boxes around women where God Himself did not even spell out in the Bible.

    Also, and again, most of the time when the Bible does speak of women, it’s usually referring to the roles married women can take on; the Bible does not place any limit on never-married adult women such as myself.

    As to the Bible verse about qualifications of – what is it, a preacher or elder?- it would also disqualify any male who does not have more than one child, as the verse, if I remember correctly, says a good candidate must be the father of children, not “a” child.

    I posit that the only reason the Bible even limited some roles to men in New Testament days was to make concessions to the patriarchal culture in which the people were living. If the people back then did not have such sexist views towards women, and on female goddess cults, I doubt Paul would have bothered with passages placing limits on females in the church at all, or hardly at all, or no more than he did the males.

    There is nothing intrinsically inferior or spiritually lacking in a woman than there is a man. There are plenty of male false teachers (eg, Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley etc) who run around teaching heresy and Word of Faith nonsense, yet I don’t see the complementarians saying even males should be barred from preaching and teaching men and women.

    Also, I’ve read that for years now, some gender complementarian churches send females overseas to preach and teach to un-saved people in other nations.

    Why is it deemed acceptable for women to preach the Gospel to unsaved men overseas but not in the United States?

    An argument could be made that women may face more dangers overseas in some cultures than they do in the USA. So why is it okay with complementarians that women preach in hostile territories in other nations but they pull the “we forbid women preachers in the USA- or (as Miano does) in street preaching, because they might face hecklers.” -? Women who preach overseas could be kidnapped, raped, and/or murdered.


  11. I haven’t yet watched the video (I may do that later), but per your comment that a lot of churches will let things slide if the person that would usually be barred holds what they view as “correct doctrine” is spot on. It is indeed pretty hypocritical.

    About this:

    “Tada was asked to take the podium by her friend, Pastor John MacArthur, to promote the message of his conference, his agenda – to call out charismatics as false doctrine.”

    This is veering a tad off topic, but I did want to say I do not like Prosperity Gospel/ Word of Faith (WoF) / Wealth and Health beliefs/teachings, and often, people who fall under the label “Charismatic” believe in and espouse WoF.

    WoF guys will promise you, if you go to their big meetings (like a Benny Hinn crusade) that they will heal you of your paralysis, cancer, depression, bad back, or whatever malady you have. And many people leave such crusades still sick.

    I heard Tada in an interview or two in the past 5 years say she tried the WoF type stuff, and it did not work for her. She finds their teachings are cruel and leave hurting people very emotionally wounded, and WoF can damage people spiritually.

    I left a comment similar to this over at Internet Monk, but I do not like any sort of theology that is victim-blaming (which does not mean I am opposed to teaching about sin, about personal responsibility, etc, when done lovingly and correctly).

    In WoF, however, they will tell you if you have cancer, if your brother Fred just died, if you got laid off from your job, if a hurricane just left you homeless, or your plumbing broke and flooded your home, or whatever your problem is, that it’s all your fault and your fault alone, because you (pick one or more):

    lacked faith / did not pray enough / did not have enough faith /
    did not utter positive confessions / uttered a negative confession/
    did not tithe enough or regularly / have unconfessed sin

    Of course it’s not only WoF that do that, a lot of Baptists do that, and other branches of Christianity are guilty of it as well. However, it appears to me to be more ‘enshrined’ in their doctrinal teachings and seems more “formalized” in WOFism.


  12. @ paulspassingthoughts

    OCTOBER 19, 2013 @ 1:32 PM
    Hour of Power Message for May 3rd 2009. from crystalcathedralpastor on GodTube.

    I don’t really watch Hour of Power a lot, but I have caught an episode or two here or there the last several years. I usually just catch the first five mintues then turn the channel, but for a period of what seemed like a year or two, some blonde lady was the preacher on that show, in the church. I’m not sure who she is, Schullers daughter?

    After the real old guy (with white hair) stepped down, a 40ish/50ish guy took over (RS jr, is that his name, the son?), then he quit (or got fired- there was some drama about this in the news, I don’t remember the specifics), and the blonde lady filled in for a good long while, after 40ish guy left.

    Then they got some 30 year old kid (a male) who’s been on hosting/preaching the last year. I think he’s missed a few episodes, and when he is not on, they get the blonde lady to fill in. So that particular church does permit women to preach, or at least the blonde woman.


  13. Ladies, I was there, and I just watched the entire presentation again. If you call relating scripture to your life story, or if that passes for preaching in your church, I am sorry, that is not preaching. All of the passages she quoted were referenced in direct context of her narrative – exactly in the same manner as the hymns. Anything she said about the meaning or application of spiritual truth was also always in the same context. This is a testimony of God’s grace, clear and simple, nothing more, nothing less. There is no three-point outline, central text, introduction, or conclusion, but rather a story laced with profound biblical lessons learned at great cost.

    I can appreciate your sensitivity to these issues, however, I’m concerned that you’re so quick to look for inconsistencies and hypocrisies that you’re missing out on rich blessings from what was presented from God’s Word, and the conference’s purpose to call people who’ve been deceived by a false system back to the Word.


  14. Hi Bill,

    Thanks for stopping by. Actually, Paul is part of this conversation, too, and he’s a guy.

    Please don’t get me wrong. I do not have a problem with Joni preaching or teaching, but I watched a portion of it a couple of times and I still say she is using scripture in a teaching fashion along with her testimony and hymns. It was beautifully done, but it was still teaching.

    You are right that I am showing the hypocrisies, however. Thanks for noting that!


  15. Hmmm… I guess Jesus never preached, either, since he didn’t use three point outlines, introductions and conclusions. He didn’t always have a central text, either. But he did often testify to God’s grace, relating scripture to life stories. Maybe Joni is less interested in preaching than in being like Jesus.


  16. If she wasn’t preaching, there will be no preaching at 90 percent of the churches in the U.S. this morning, Paul never preached, Jesus never preached, and most pastors never preach.


  17. Miss Daisy nailed it with the Challies citation: “Tada was asked to take the podium by her friend, Pastor John MacArthur, to promote the message of his conference, his agenda – to call out charismatics as false doctrine.”


  18. Semantics…she can ‘promote’ a teaching…but not teach? What in the world is the difference? She was teaching/preaching to others what she believes about scripture and how charismatics are wrong. Jmac let her do it for the purpose of promoting his message, so it was okay.


  19. I just want to add that I am pentacostal. I believe in healing and tongues etc. But our church is very balanced. We know sometimes god doesn’t heal. We trust God enough to know he has his reasons why He does or doesn’t do something. But I would never be arrogant enough to say God doesn’t do abc. Did Joni or Jmac ever think that by not healing her she could reach thousands of people in the way someone who isn’t in a wheelchair couldn’t?


  20. “There is no three-point outline, central text, introduction, or conclusion, but rather a story laced with profound biblical lessons learned at great cost.”

    Dr. Bill, If you have a doctorate, surely you can think this one through. A “conclusion”? “Three point outline”? “Central text”? This determines “preaching” vs a “story”? I am amused since Jesus told a lot of “stories” to make His points.

    Perhaps your doctorate is from a seminary which would make your comment understandable in light of indoctrination. Not “education” as in critical thinking skills.


  21. “This is a testimony of God’s grace, clear and simple, nothing more, nothing less. There is no three-point outline, central text, introduction, or conclusion, but rather a story laced with profound biblical lessons learned at great cost.”

    Um… Dr. Bill, I’m just curious…

    Were you a barber previously? Because it sounds like you split hairs for a living. 😉

    Seriously, though, I think AnotherTom is right on the money. Joni was doing just what Jesus did, and what generations of Christians have done to evangelize and teach — she was sharing what God had done in her life. So if a woman is allowed to do that in public, why not teach and evangelize?


  22. Tada wasn’t teaching/preaching because, “This is a testimony of God’s grace, clear and simple, nothing more, nothing less. There is no three-point outline, central text, introduction, or conclusion, but rather a story laced with profound biblical lessons learned at great cost”?

    Sophistry: a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. From

    Dr. Bill, you would make a good lawyer, one who can credibly argue to the judge that when the law says “thou shalt not” it really means “thou shouldst not, but ’tis entirely up to you;” yea, verily, who could with a straight face argue to the jury that blue is red and day is night. Well, it’s said that, while it may be possible to confuse the judge, the mere mortals who sit in jury boxes know better.

    Dr. Bill, would you mind telling us who conferred the title of “Doctor” on you? Was it an accredited institution? What is your degree? To tell you the truth, I am suspicious of people who call themselves Doctor. Your doctorate may be real, but in too many instances the title is just a diploma mill faux prefix people use in an attempt to enhance their own credibility. Well, to tell you the truth, even if you have a legitimate doctorate from an accredited seminary, I tend to be nonplussed. Bonhoeffer characterized American seminaries as mere vocational schools. Our seminaries indoctrinate, they teach what to think, but they do not teach how to think. Worse, most simply do not accept thinking that varies from their own imposed dogma.


  23. I love Another Tom’s comment:

    Hmmm… I guess Jesus never preached, either, since he didn’t use three point outlines, introductions and conclusions. He didn’t always have a central text, either. But he did often testify to God’s grace, relating scripture to life stories.

    The idea of seminaries and doctorates was foreign in Jesus’ day and now they seem to be the standard for many. Boy, have we strayed from the simple and profound teachings of Jesus. Would our modern seminary graduates have rejected the teachings of Jesus because He didn’t meet their standards in form?


  24. Lydia says to Dr. Bill, “Perhaps your doctorate is from a seminary which would make your comment understandable in light of indoctrination. Not “education” as in critical thinking skills.”

    With one or two happy exceptions, every past or I have personally known over more than half a century have been no more than shills for particular theological dogmas. Some were truly incapable of even understanding another person’s differing point of view.

    I dare say that, aside from the one or two exceptions noted above, Julie Anne demonstrates more critical thinking skills than the pastors I have personally known. The same can be said for the superior critical thinking skills of every regular contributor to this blog (excepting only myself, for humility’s sake 🙂 )


  25. “If you call relating scripture to your life story, or if that passes for preaching in your church, I am sorry, that is not preaching. All of the passages she quoted were referenced in direct context of her narrative – exactly in the same manner as the hymns. Anything she said about the meaning or application of spiritual truth was also always in the same context. This is a testimony of God’s grace, clear and simple, nothing more, nothing less. There is no three-point outline, central text, introduction, or conclusion, but rather a story laced with profound biblical lessons learned at great cost.”

    Well, JA, now we know the answer: She wasn’t teaching or preaching at all while she was speaking from the “pulpit”. That’s the most hilarious, hypocritical, & untrue explanation… but I bet that will be THE go to explanation.

    Dr, Bill,
    If this is true, why would JA never be allowed to do the same thing at JMac’s church as Joni – tell others from the pulpit about her personal experience… with spiritual abuse?

    And I am 100% sure that will NEVER happen.

    100% hypocrisy. If you are in line with the party doctrine & the leaders can “use” you, the rules don’t apply.

    Jesus taught with parables. The Bible teaches with poetry, proverbs, parables, relay of history, biography, cause/effect, warnings, & more. Joni was teaching/preaching!

    As a homeschool Mom I would be foolish to not apply multiple teaching methods. I’ve used youtube videos, song, personal accounts, etc. So learning/teaching isn’t going on with these methods? Come on now!

    Look around. We all know women teach everyday, in many ways. Any church, any doctrine that says women can’t teach/preach, denies the reality in our everyday lives. Reality is denied, marginalized, called evil.

    So what does women don’t teach=preach mean then? We all know it means not to call a woman a preacher, no speaking from the pulpit, no women worship “leaders”, etc. But Jesus himself never taught women couldn’t teach.

    Why no women teachers/preachers? Are women to be feared? Do women critically think more than men or are less likely to follow blindly if they know they are allowed to make up their own minds? I’m not saying it’s true, just trying to understand why.


  26. I’ve learned more truth from people who’s primary intent is following Jesus. You can observe them & see it quite clearly. These are the ones who don’t call themselves: pastor, elder, deacon, Dr, seminary grad, leader.

    They won’t demand your tithe & offerings either.


  27. I wouldn’t be allowed a platform at JMac’s church because I have dissed them publicly for not speaking out about a false teacher, Chuck O’Neal. I told Bill Shannon on the phone that if I handed the phone to my husband, he would be given the time of day more than me.

    This whole woman thing really irks my buns (as my mother says).


  28. Of course they didn’t pick up on SMG’s facetiousness. What SMG says with tongue planted firmly in cheek is their actual, unexamined, follow-the-herd dogma. Still, I find it difficult to understand why so many women would choose to be a part of this particular herd. Shouldn’t they go on strike until these insecure wannabe alpha male types get some sense?


  29. I hope Joni preached! You go, girl! She has something to say that many benefit from hearing.

    Joni has been an incredible friend to someone I know who has suffered the most excruciating pain of over 75 surgeries in the past 25+ years. Both of these women have taken refuge in cessationist churches to avoid the pain they have suffered repeatedly of people blaming them for their lack of healing.

    I, personally, have enjoyed blessing and pain in both Charismatic and cessationist churches over the years.

    I’ve enjoyed both men and women sharing, teaching, preaching, or whatever label you give it, over the years, as well. But for those who’ve been banned from such sharing of God’s Word and works because they are women, I’ve not been able to enjoy the blessing they had/have to share. That’s a shame.


  30. Yeah, Julie Anne, but when your eyes were opened you didn’t just passively go on strike. You mounted a determined, ongoing and effective counter strike. Had I the authority to do so, I would grant full absolution–absolution for the “sin” of possessing a trusting heart, a heart that chose to trust those who came in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but were wolves.

    Actually, if that business about binding and loosing applies to the priesthood of the believers generally, and not just to some of these self-appointed and self-aggrandizing “elders,” I do have authority to absolve, or at least to pronounce that absolution which has already been granted in Heavenly places. You are absolved.


  31. @ Dr Bill.
    I think it’s splitting hairs.

    Some gender complementarians will not let women to speak aloud ever, at all, in church for any reason, and not even so much as permit a woman to read from the Bible to the congregation at all.

    Some comps say it’s OK for a female to read the Bible or pray in front of the whole church, but she has to have a “covering” (eg, a husband there with her – I am a never married female that leaves me mute, I guess?)

    Gender complementarians cannot agree on when, how, and/or where a woman may preach / teach/ lead / speak, if at all.

    RHE did a post calling this out two or three times before, and did a nice job summarizing the glaring inconsistencies in gender comp restrictions on Christian women here:
    “Will The Real Complementarian Please Stand Up?”


  32. Joni has spoken (preached) at my church. We have a woman in charge of our children’s ministry. We don’t dare call her a pastor so we call her our Children’s Director. She tells me what to do. I do it. I’ve served at my church since 1985. During that time we’ve had 2 Children’s Directors and 4 or 5 Children’s Pastors (men). All have been excellent. All have loved the kids. The men brought a little more creativity and hype while the women are full of love. I love serving under these leaders.


  33. I read most of the article. The man is splitting hairs. If Joni did not preach, what do you call it? It’s not just a testimony. Even if it was merely a testimony, many or most testimonies include some preaching -expounding- of the word of God.

    “Joni did not bring instruction from the Word of God to the men in attendance. Joni did not exercise any form of authority over the men in attendance. Joni did not herald the law and the gospel. Joni did not exercise authority by publicly calling men to repent and believe the gospel.”

    If that was true, which it is not, Joni would have nothing to say and no reason to speak. What do you call a public speaker? Can you say “authority”?

    He is right (in my opinion) about Joyce Meyers, not because of how she preaches or how she looks or carries herself but because her message is not the gospel.

    The bottom line is: anyone who is listened to is being an authority at that point. Otherwise get up and walk away.

    Here are some verses (you know- from the actual bible) containing the word testimony, just for clarification:

    Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

    Jhn 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. Oops! It says ‘man’.

    Jhn 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

    Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

    1Cr 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you.

    1Cr 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

    There are many more. I also found a handful of old testament verses about the testimony in the ark of the covenant. It looks to me like testimony equals preaching. Uh-oh!


  34. If she wasn’t teaching, than what was she doing? You can play with words and say things like “sharing”, or “relating a personal perspective” or whatever….but in reality, it’s really no different than what many men do on a Sunday morning when they “preach” or “teach”.

    Besides that, if you want to be consistent, why is she even speaking and not being “silent in the church”? You can’t play it both ways. If women are to be submissive and not teach or have authority in the church, then they must be silent.


  35. lynette,

    I agree. Joyce Meyer is a different discussion. The merits of Joni’s teaching aren’t what it’s about either. It’s about Miano, or anyone for that matter, hypocritically listening to Joni’s teaching while holding to the policy of women silent in church (as christianagnostic stated).

    Subtle tactic: Throw in something your target audience will agree with & you’re half way there, regardless of whether your right or wrong. It’s called diversion. Bait & switch. This comes naturally to those who don’t want an honest look at the consistency, or lack thereof, of their own behaviors.


  36. It makes me angry how Miano used the words “An Example of a Manly Woman Preacher.” It just sounds insulting.

    It is rude. He has called me a manly woman.


  37. One of the disappointing patterns I see among church leaders is one of giving free passes: if you hold to the “correct” doctrine, other hypocrisies will be overlooked (ie, “forgetting” to notify civil authorities about sex abuse, excusing the fact that a pastor sued former church members, etc).

    Instead of “correct doctrine”, I prefer the term used by the Soviet Union and Khmer Rouge: PURITY OF IDEOLOGY.

    Ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields how much Purity of Ideology can justify.


  38. Listen in particular around the 20-minute mark. She reads scripture and expounds on it. Is she not teaching/preaching? This is exactly what I hear pastors do. But wait . . . she’s a woman!

    KYLE: But Dad, isn’t that Fascism?
    KYLE’S DAD: No it isn’t, son. Because we don’t call it Fascism. Do you understand?
    KYLE: Do you?
    South Park, “Sexual Harassment Panda”

    Or maybe Johnny Mac gave Joni a set of “truck nuts” to wear inside her clothing and make her an honorary Manly Man so she could preach?


  39. JA wrote~

    “Ok, Tony finally responded (I did happen to tag him in a tweet.):
    What do you think?”

    I did not think much of his opinion in his post at all….that’s all it is-his opinion. If he had any credentials behind his name, I would be more inclined to take a look at his book. If I wished to know what Phil Johnson or Steve Lawson thought about this subject, I would read their educated opinions. It does not matter to me that there are interviews by them in this book. So what? Miano is the one who wrote it and he is an uneducated, Masters seminary drop out. Can an uneducated person write a book? Yes. Preach? Yes. Pastor? I suppose. Since Miano makes the claim that if you are not seeing things his way…er.. God’s way via his way, you are thinking unbiblically, I suppose, in my world, someone who makes a claim like that had better have years of study…not months. The fact is Miano is a self-proclaimed, self-made oa preacher who dropped out of The Masters after an undisclosed amount of time there. He had some sort of ordination ceremony at a place called Grenada Hills Church, but does not even attend the church that “ordained” him anymore and made the switch to Faith Community Church in the last year or two. What happened? Gosh, they take the time to ordain him in a ceremony and everything…and post it on youtube, and he’s not even at that church anymore, even though he had been there for several years.

    I find that odd.


  40. I cannot take Miano’s article seriously that JA linked to for 3 reasons.

    1) He starts with an insult in the title- “Manly Woman Preacher.” It is immature to be so focused on gender/femininity and insulting of said gender that you cannot even keep it out of the title of your post. That indicates a lack of self-control, imo.

    2) In the second paragraph, he places a label on some of those who disagree and calls them detractors. Detractor: one who disparages or belittles, slanders and/or backbites. It is the height of immaturity to resort to name calling because people do not agree with you. Now, I would love to ask him about this, but he allows no comments on his blog. It is also the height of immaturity to delete comments off of your FB page because you are being challenged. Do our FB pages have to have a sanitized, all of one accord appearance? That is rather rigid thinking. Immature.

    3rd) He writes, “Sadly, the immaturity of some Christians doesn’t surprise me.”
    LOL. If he were really and truly grievously sad about the supposed immaturity of some Christians, he would not mention it (further insulting them in his post) and would pray-and NOT keek/tweet/FB about praying. Instead, he writes how sad he is (as he insults their maturity). Why do I think he’s not sad about this alleged immaturity but just wanted to call them immature instead because he’s miffed?

    In determining whether Miano may cast this stone of immaturity (albeit sadly), one merely needs to go to his blog and look at the keeks he’s filmed entitled, “First Time Eating With Chopsticks”, “Should I Get This Shirt”, and “Shhh! I think I found Mahria the PERFECT Mother’s Day gift. It’s a secret! Shhh! :-)” and judge for yourself. It’s pretty emotional immature, imo, to film yourself doing mundane things, all while thinking people actually would be interested in it and want to see you eat and shop while making faces at the camera.


  41. Miano: re Gk Kerusso “to preach” from the NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon:

    “‘To be a herald, to officiate as a herald; to proclaim after the manner of a herald; always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed; to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done; used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers.'”

    Tada did herald or preach in the manner of a herald as is customary in a church setting or Christian conference event. There was without a doubt the suggestion of formality, gravity, and authority to convince and heed her warnings and experiences and learn about the character of Jesus, the teachings of scripture about suffering, sovereignty, healing, and salvation, and about her own spiritual growth and experiences. This authority is from JMacArthur as host by her very presence, from Jesus Christ in whose name, that is authority, she spoke, and from her own experiences and understanding. She proclaimed openly. Now Miano claims she “testified.” The legal definitions aside, defines “testify” as to declare, profess, or acknowledge openly and defines it as to proclaim openly. Testifying IS proclaiming openly, and Tada at the conference openly proclaims about the effect of original sin, salvation through the gospel of Jesus Christ, suffering, true healing, and its work of sanctification.

    Miano: “Having read all 60 New Testament verses in their context that use the word kerusso (to preach), I did not find a single use of the word by a woman, of a woman, or as instruction to a woman. To point this out is not to put forth an argument from silence.”

    From Wiki: “Argument from silence (argumentum e silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence…”

    The audience composed of both men and women listen as Tada heralds, preaches, proclaims openly, teaches, instructs them to reflect and pray, and leads them in song.


  42. From Diane -‘Detractor: one who disparages or belittles, slanders and/or backbites’. – isn’t that exactly what Miano did when he unleashed a personal attack on Joyce Meyer? It’s one thing to expose false teaching, but nowhere in the word of God are we called to attack another person and belittle them as Miano has done. Someone needs to reel him in and make him aware of his unbibilcal ways. Joyce Meyer’s teachings do not line up with God’s word, so expose her teachings; BUT, do not unleash a personal attack on her and insult her by referring to her in this way ” She carries herself like a man, sounds like a man, and preaches like a man.” {from his latest post} Good grief, who does he think he is?!?

    This is beyond what Scripture calls for, Miano has forgotten Ephesians 6:12, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” So, he attacks ‘flesh and blood’ and calls Meyer ‘manly’. How shameful this is, and how inexcusable. I do not recall the Lord accusing the Pharisees of being feminine, with their ‘long flowing gowns’ and all. He attacked their teachings and called them hypocrites because of those teachings. Miano has gone beyond what is written and unleashed a personal attack on Meyer’s ‘person’; he needs to repent and seek her forgiveness.


  43. lyn, I don’t know if you saw my tweets today, but Frank Turk got involved and I found it was interesting how we were discussing the debate on Dr. Michael Brown’s show with Phil Johnson and it was like magic, Frank turned the discussion on to me personally. It’s their MO I guess.


  44. Diane – I can give a little bit of insight about ordination. I have a B.A. in ministry but never went the ordination route. Many of my classmates did, however. Many of them were ordained by the church that they had been interning with during their schooling. It was more of a sign that the pastor and church that they worked with approved of them being ministers based upon their experiences with them. Most of my classmates did not stay on at the churches but went on to other ministries. What is different, however, is that most of my classmates finished their college education before they were ordained.

    I can understand Miano’s part in leaving whatever church he was ordained by. It happens all the time. I don’t understand the church that ordained him even though he didn’t finish his degree (especially since he was in a degree program). However, I do know people who have been ordained by churches without any ministry study at all. I don’t recommend it, and that’s about as much slack as I can give Miano at this point in time. 😉


  45. JA,
    Yes I did catch that. It seems to be a pattern, to resort to name calling, sarcasm, etc. and smack down all who oppose or challenge. This is huge in the Reformed camp, they have ‘head knowledge’ but no love, no compassion. They tend to be arrogant and legalistic. There is MUCH wrong within that camp; that’s why I refuse to label myself as so many do, in all camps, denomations,etc. It’s best to stick with being ‘a follower of Christ’, loving Him and being taught by Him.
    This isn’t the first time F.T.’s displayed an arrogant and hateful attitude towards others. Where is the love Christ calls for us to have? That’s how the world is supposed to know that we are His disciples! Instead, the world points, laughs, mocks, ridicules, and walks away. God help us.


  46. “It makes me angry how Miano used the words “An Example of a Manly Woman Preacher.” It just sounds insulting.

    It is rude. He has called me a manly woman.”

    JA, Have you met Tony in person? What is his stature?


  47. In my opinion, the way Miano characterizes women as manly women is a not-so-thinly-veiled attempt to cast aspersions based on inferences of sexual orientation. It would be interesting if somebody would, at some opportune moment, ask him point blank if that is what is is intending to do.


  48. Forgive the snark ( ;
    Poor Tony he seems to suffer from some of the symptoms of sms

    Short man syndrome’ is a condition in which a person has to deal with a feeling of inadequacy which can come from a lack of height – or a perceived lack of height. This is particularly common in men who gain a lot of confidence and status from physicality and who often gain pleasure from being able to feel physically imposing.

    Short man syndrome is an informal term and not a medical or psychological condition and goes by other names such as ‘Napoleon complex’. Technically it is a form of inferiority complex in which the person attempts to overcompensate for their perceived shortcoming. The term is often used as a derogatory term also to describe those who are perceived as acting this way.


    Thus the stereotype is that the smaller male with short man syndrome would be aggressive, likely to shout and talk loudly and seek attention and eager to prove themselves. Many people compare the typical short man complex to that of a smaller dog – which many note are often noisier and more aggressive than larger more docile dogs. Other personality traits have also been linked to Napoleon syndrome – for instance risk taking behavior and jealousy.


  49. Joyce Meyers IS on the masculine side but is that criteria germane? Looks like Tony comes up short.

    I read that article, Julie Anne. It’s well worth reading.


  50. Gary – I was just about to take a sip of coffee when I read that! I think it could make a clever hiaku. 😉

    Gail – I’ve met many menly man preachers who suffer from SMS. It’s not pretty.


  51. Hey all, see-ins how I am towering over 6 feet tall, I was not going to go there with the SMS. Nope. Wasn’t going to touch it. But believe me – I have dealt with it. A lot of guys are v.e.r.y. uncomfortable with my height – – I wish you all could see it because it is so obvious – – and there’s not a thing I can do about that.


  52. for lack of time only read half of posts.
    I have heard many of Joni’s messages, and read her book “The God I love”
    (Which was very different than her movie–I was actually surprised she allowed so much fabrication in her movie-another subject!
    She has also spoke at my church. I wouldn’t say that she is a preacher but an encourager in the body. So even though she speaks publically I don’t regard her as a “teacher” per say. And she is not a Pastor, so maybe “Pastor/teacher” would not be her title.
    Having said that, she is speaking publically with men present and is sharing the word of God. But men are not under her authority as would be as a Pastor title.

    I hope she is well as she has been battling cancer.
    I have one CD of hers that I used to listen to every morning before starting her day.


  53. Sorry, slightly off topic. Saw this article today. Clohessy rejects Patterson’s “advice”.

    “David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, responded to an Oct. 15 sermon by Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary President Paige Patterson claiming the prohibition in First Corinthians 6 on church members suing one another “also means that you don’t take matters to the press. We don’t take matters before unbelievers,” Patterson said. “What goes on in the church of God doesn’t go to the press.” Here’s the abp article:

    Patterson protects the hierarchy. Silent when pastors sue congregants. Crystal clear on this rule: congregants can’t report matters such as abuse, theft, etc. to the “unbelieving” authorities. That’s my understanding (& Clohessy’s understanding) of it. Paige Patterson says no whistleblowing. Here’s Clohessy’s article:


  54. PS IMO the difference between Joyce Meyers and Joni is that Joyce refers to herself as a Pastor (I think she uses the term “preacher” ) and Joni does not.


  55. Sure, there is a difference in what they call themselves, but it seems to me they are both teaching – expounding the Word which to Miano is only reserved to men.


  56. “the prohibition in First Corinthians 6 on church members suing one another “also means that you don’t take matters to the press.”

    Actually, the 1 Cor passage speaks to the issue of Christians suing one another, not church members. Some offenses are so serious that we may judge, on the basis of fruit, that the offender is no Christian, even if he/she is a member of an organized church. Any “church” that fails to report crimes to the God-ordained civil authorities has forfeited the right to call itself Christian. It has, IMO, become a synagogue of Satan.


  57. JA Well, women were in the upper room at Pentecost -so they were also given tongues to preach, right?..and also we have Priscilla and Aquilla (Sp) very important to Paul in Acts. That one verse by Paul in Corinthians makes things very confusing to me! Maybe just that church ! lol-well, who knows, right??


  58. Hannah – – What did Jesus tell women about their role and what they could and could not do? Anyone?

    So many of these guys act like control freaks. They are so concerned about women, they forget to act like Jesus.


  59. How about the Samaritan woman? How many did she tell? Jesus told us to go make disciples (unless he was only speaking to the 12)!


  60. This isn’t about Joni, this is about what Miano says about women, any woman, reading God’s word…

    “While carrying none of the essentialiity of the Doctrine of the Trinity, a biblical understanding of the important prohibition of women preaching the gospel and reading the Word of God in the open-air can also be clearly seen in Scripture through the hermeneutic application of the “Analogy of Faith.” For years I lived as if I was blind to it. Frankly, I didn’t want to see it. The implications and ramifications of a biblical understanding of the issue were too great, too costly, too inconvenient, too uncomfortable.

    While I was sincere in my beliefs that women could open-air preach and engage in the public reading of Scripture in the open-air, I was sincerely wrong. My upcoming book, Should She Preach? – Biblical Evangelism for Women, is an admission of my exegetical and theological error and an effort to correct the myriad consequences of that error–namely: an effort to undo my mistake of equipping and encouraging hundreds of women to do something God would not have them do–preach in the open-air.” from

    Joni did quote from the Gospel of Mark, and she did this in the company of men, believing men. According to Miano’s ‘theology’, this is sinful. She ‘engaged in the public reading of Scripture’. As for ‘open-air’, there simply is no biblical mandate for any Christian to stand on a ladder with a bull horn and scream at random people.
    Yes, proclaim the Gospel far and wide, to the highways and bi-ways, but do NOT twist God’s word to fit a personal agenda, do not make it say what it simply does not say.
    Praise the Lord for Joni and her testimony, which does include speaking God’s word. Praise the Lord that she was given a platform to exalt Christ and glorify Him. Shame on men who seek to oppress, to belittle, and to ridicule; men who have little to no training in the word of God, who rush out and write books without a right understanding of the ‘whole counsel’. Men who, when challenged, resort to childish tactics and ways instead of expounding on the Scriptures.


  61. A new article on complementarianism by Richard Beck that has connections with this thread:

    It is this additional bit, that God gave the gifts of leadership to men rather than to women, that carries us well past the boundaries of what might properly be called “complementarian.” Because as I’ve noted, every egalitarian marriage is complementarian in some form or fashion.

    So what’s the better term? The better term, the one I prefer, is hierarchical complementarianism.

    Of course, many hierarchical complementarians might object to this label, but it is more accurate. Specifically, it distinguishes between the sort of complementarianism that egalitarians believe in, what might be called relational complementarianism, from the kind that hierarchical complementarians believe in, a complementing that isn’t organic to the relationship (the relative gifts of the husband and wife) but is, rather, a fixed and preordained power-relation with men placed in leadership over women.

    Thoughts? I don’t know much about Richard Beck, but this link has been going around.


  62. @ JA~

    “Just as I thought would happen. I can no longer comment on Miano’s FB page. I’d let Tony Miano comment here. What’s with these guys?”

    I am banned as well. All I did was point out that Miano’s church link was wrong in a post he wrote pointing to something/someone positive at his home church. IIRC, the FB post was lauding an elder or pastor’s message at his church. The link in the post took you to a church (similar name as his church) in Georgia, not CA. Seems that was a bad (unfeminine?) thing to do, as my 2 comments (and one other comment) were deleted and he then deleted the post as well. Good grief…why? Did he suddenly change his mind about highlighting something that he considered positive at his church?


  63. The more controversy one makes over the book Miano is trying to sell, the more people will, perhaps, buy the book to see what the controversy is all about.
    So, people create it.


  64. For example, Miano writes in the post JA linked above:

    “I’ve been made aware that some of the detractors of my book are trying to stir the pot. Some have asked on Facebook if I plugged my ears while Joni spoke during the conference.”

    Uh huh. And what did he do? Write a blog article about it. He could have ignored it all but what would that gain him? Bad publicity is just as good as good if youa re trying to sell.


  65. “Thoughts? I don’t know much about Richard Beck, but this link has been going around.”

    Comp did not last. It did not work. Remember, it was the 1980’s with Danvers statement and went full steam ahead and became in industry. It had a good run. But it was a fad in Evangelical circles. It had a longer run than Purpose Driven Life or any of the other fads.

    The whole marketing scheme was to bring in Evangelicals from all over Christendom. It worked for a while but the movement bulged from Danvers signers into many sub categories and became confusing. It got to the point one needed a Christian Talmud to follow all the new roles, rules and formulas in both the Body and marriage. It became mass chaos. Were you an Eggerich comp? A Piper comp?, etc, etc

    Quite a few people made some serious money on that movement.

    CBMW had money rolling in but started going south in early 2000’s or so. Think about it…CBMW went from Bayly Bros to Al Mohler at SBTS. Piper confused more people than you can imagine because he kept getting more and more bizarre world as in women should be careful not to “teach” a man while giving driving directions. Many articles at CBMW were so Mormonish it became an embarrassment. Social media just about killed it off as folks started reading outside their ghetto with other scholars who had a different take on the Greek, etc.

    Russ Moore fired the first shot back sometime around 2005 or so when he wrote an article for the Henry Institute saying “comps are wimps” and we “need more patriarchy”. The movement started splintering. Most comp couples live egal marriage and even Moore admitted that and said it was wrong.

    Now you are seeing the dregs of that movement. CBMW is trying to reinvent itself. Tony’s book is an example of piggybacking on a dying movement. There will always be die hards but it is NOTHING like it was from about early 80’s to early 2000. Lots of people made bank on it and many couples spent a lot of time focusing on what each other was doing or not doing. Satan was delighted.


  66. I am wondering if Tony Miano would use the term, “womanly man”?? . . . just wondering. . . or if, perhaps, the men who sit in the pews and don’t take a preacher’s role are referred to as such. . . again, just wondering. . .


  67. “CBMW went from Bayly Bros to Al Mohler at SBTS. Piper confused more people than you can imagine because he kept getting more and more bizarre world as in women should be careful not to “teach” a man while giving driving directions. Many articles at CBMW were so Mormonish it became an embarrassment.”

    Speaking of CBMW & Mormon. Al Mohler, president SBTS & member of CBMW, spoke at Brigham Young University yesterday. Uniting his base? Sounds like these groups have more in common with Mormons than Pentecostals!


  68. I posted a link to Mohler’s speech to the SSB Facebook page. I’m surprised BYU would invite him to speak. I saw a bunch of tweeters asking for prayer for Mohler as he spoke to Mormons.


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