Christian Love, Christian Marriage, Domestic Violence and Churches, Personal Stories, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Spiritual Abuse, SURVIVOR STORIES, Wives or (ex) of Pedophiles, Women and the Church

Financial Ramifications of Abuse: What’s a Church to Do?

Julie Anne

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Survivors of abuse have to climb many mountains.  The first mountain is acknowledging the fact that they are being abused.  Then they have to decide what to do.  They are left emotionally reeling and yet, have to survive, take care of their children, put food on the table, etc.

One of SSB’s regular readers, Brenda, found the blog via a Google search which landed her at this article:  Being Married to a Pedophile: A Wife Speaks Out and Offers Hope to Other Wives of Pedophiles.   While Brenda’s story is horrific, the story of how she found the blog and what has happened since is one of my favorite stories.  You can read the comments where she connects with another former wife of a pedophile.  It’s a beautiful story in that two women who had their lives completely disrupted by their pedophile husbands were able to connect and tell their stories.   Now they have a unique connection and can offer one another hope, share heartaches, and struggles.  I just love how God works.  Brenda has a blog, A Solitary Journey, and is so vulnerable in sharing her personal story in hopes that she can be of encouragement to others.   

Brenda shared from her heart on the new SSB Forum.  Because Brenda has been so open about her experience, I asked if she’d be willing to discuss it here. Brenda gave me permission to copy it entirely.   She has such amazing strength.

It makes me sick to think of the money churches spend on church expansions, high-tech equipment, remodeling projects, spending thousands of dollars to send people on short-term missions trips when victims of abuse are left in financial ruins, barely surviving because of the predicament in which the abuser has put them.

I can’t help but think that an abuse survivor must feel as if they are in prison with so little help from people who are supposed to be helping:  the church.  She is the one who first bore the pain of the abuser, but she is the one who also must deal with the aftermath in ways that are likely more difficult than the abuser will ever face.  Why is the survivor abandoned and re-victimized yet again?  This is not right!

It is important to read Brenda’s first-hand account to understand exactly what survivors face as they try to get back on their feet again.

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Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27

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Financial Ramifications of Abuse: What’s a church to do?

by Brenda

I know that in a sense I am preaching to the choir here because I believe we are all on the same page when it comes to the righteous anger we feel on how the church handles abuse victims of any sort.  But I’m wondering what your experience has been in terms of how the church has responded to the tangible needs abuse victims have.  Let me explain:

When my ex was arrested for child pornography, his “Christian” employer immediately fired him.  I understand that was the wise and correct thing for them to do for him and for their institution.  But he was the only breadwinner in our family so my daughter and I were immediately left with no source of income and quickly without health insurance.  We had no savings to draw from and our financial needs were huge–staggering.  The legal fees for my very difficult divorce exceeded $20,000, not to mention the cost of relocating and starting life over again.  My daughter and I literally left town within two days of his arrest with a suitcase of clothing and nothing else.  The media coverage was huge and we were afraid for our safety since our home address was printed all over the media.  We landed in Southern California and lived out of that one suitcase for weeks and weeks and weeks.  There was no offer of support or help in any way from organized religion or “religious” individuals.

I was unemployed for a year and a half after my life exploded.  It is a difficult environment now for job seekers plus I know that I was discriminated against by religious institutions because of the ongoing public spectacle of my ex’s criminal case.  The only way to get a job these days is to know someone who knows someone and I desperately needed someone to take me under their wing and help me find a job by networking for me with their associates.  I longed for someone to say, “Hey, I know x and y and z who are in the position to influence hiring choices.  Give me your resume and I will personally contact them on your behalf.”  That didn’t happen.

I needed cash and lots of it.  Other than a few very small gifts, there was none forthcoming from any religious organization or individual.  My Buddhist gay brother and his partner pledged to provide for us until I could get on my feet.  And they did–tens of thousands of dollars–all a gift, nothing expected in return.

I needed household items since I was unable to gain access to my former home to get our belongings for months.  My daughter and I slept on air mattresses for a time and eventually, I maxed out my credit card to purchase beds, etc. so we would have a place to sleep.  How many people have excess in storage units, garages, etc.  It would have saved so much money if people had offered.  But they didn’t.

I needed friends who would call and invite me to a family dinner or take me out for a meal.  Instead, I had a few friends who wanted to connect but never offered to pay for my meal and often used the time to bend my ear about their struggles.  Might I add, it was incredibly difficult to sit and listen to the pain they still experienced over the death of a pet for hours?  My mind was present but my heart just was screaming–“Let me tell you about pain, my friend!!!!!@@###$$”

I needed recognition as a victim.  I was told by the prosecutor in my ex’s case that the court does not recognize me as a victim.  And unfortunately, neither does the church.  Instead I am a pariah, a leper, contagious.  The church I now attend is a safe place, I believe.  But only a few of the small congregants know my story. Not sure why the pastor has not been more forthcoming with help–still puzzled by that.

The extraneous expenses a partner of a pedophile faces can be huge and there seems to be no place where assistance is available.  At one point, my daughter’s therapy expenses exceeded $700 a month and we had no insurance so that came out of my pocket. Legal fees are often a necessity–I so often wished for a defense attorney or any attorney who could help me understand the process and any potential liability I might have.  We have Christian attorneys–do they make themselves available to individuals such as myself, who cannot afford to pay them?

So what has your experience been in terms of tangible needs?  Have you received support from any religious organizations with which you are affiliated?  I’m asking because I so want my experience to be the anomaly though I fear it isn’t.  As this forum grows, we are going to have people raw with pain from recent disclosure, etc.  If we can work through some of this stuff now, then we will be a safer place for them during the initial throes of their trauma.  Does that make sense?

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Can we please discuss this?    How does your church handle situations like this? Do you know of survivors in your church? Are their needs being met? How can we find these survivors? What can we as a church body do to make sure the Brendas in our midst do not slip through the cracks.  Oh, this pains me to know this is going on!   Take note – Brenda’s Buddhist gay brother and partner helped provide for Brenda and her daughter, but where was the church? Sometimes I feel embarrassed to be a Christian.

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175 thoughts on “Financial Ramifications of Abuse: What’s a Church to Do?”

  1. I made this response on the forum and thought I would bring it over here to the blog.

    Brenda said”My Buddhist gay brother and his partner pledged to provide for us until I could get on my feet. And they did–tens of thousands of dollars–all a gift, nothing expected in return.”

    I find this very sad that as Christians, we do not recognize what a gay couple that were of the Buddhist faith could plainly see and acted on. We far to often throw out the innocent victims and they are treated like garbage. Yes, help sometimes comes and I could talk about a couple of cases where 1% or 2% in a church will help but I have seen where help was given by a small minority but the innocent wife was actually asked not to come back to church. Financial devastation comes and this is to the shame of the local church. May God allow us to empathize with the victims. I never though I would say this but I can truly say, praise God for a gay couple of the Buddhist faith for listening to the voice of a God they don’t even know because nobody that has a relationship with the true and living God would. So sad.
    Jim

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  2. JA, This is why I LOVE your blog. God bless you!!!!

    “It makes me sick to think of the money churches spend on church expansions, high-tech equipment, remodeling projects, spending thousands of dollars to send people on short-term missions trips when victims of abuse are left in financial ruins, barely surviving because of the predicament in which the abuser has put them.”

    Oh please do not get me started. I saw it upclose and personal in the mega world. They spend money like drunken sailors on shore leave and work about 20 hours per week (as in I don’t do funerals or the hospital gigs but I will go on that mission trip to Nepal)

    Here is what I plead for folks to do…..look around you, they are EVERYWHERE. Single moms desperate for help. Fix the brakes on her car. Pay her electric bill. Slide an envelope of some money under her door. Get her new tires with a warranty. Pay for her kids to attend camp. Give her money you would give to an institution. You can do it anonymously if that helps. Just say it is from Jesus.

    You know what kills me? I see so many times churches making big deals out of these low income women giving out of what little they have spouting the widows mite taking it totally out of context while the pastor makes 6 figures. That is criminal in my view.

    Talk about twisting the words of Christ. I quake in my boots for some of these guys because false teaching is serious. Instead, many of them make being divorced single mom a sin.

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  3. Oh, this breaks my heart. Wives of men with sexual perversions get hit really hard in the church. I know a woman in this young woman’s situation. At least she had a job, but it was not enough to take care of her family. Another thing…I also found “unbelievers” so much more understanding, compassionate and helpful in the practical needs that my church or other Christians. The sexually perverse nature of the offenses really scares Christians and they disassociate from women like Brenda.
    I asked leadership about contacting the woman I know because I had walked a similar path and I was told not to. Everything was so hush hush. I sure hope she got the support she needed and good practical advice.

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  4. When I was growing up I was always told that when you are in trouble your church family would be there to support you. It was rather heart breaking to find that this is pretty much a lie at times. It really depends on the circumstances I have found.

    I remember when my brother’s wife was killed, and he was left alone with 3 young children. One of which was 6 weeks old. Those types of tragedies they seem to be able to relate to. You know the ordinary, everyday uglies of life that to many do experience.

    There were a couple of times in my life when I truly needed help. I knew my circumstance wasn’t comfortable for the church folks. I was given a couple of meals here and there, but it was my network of ‘secular or worldly’ friends that I have truly stepped up.

    Its hard to explain to them my faith at times, because they knew who wasn’t there. I firmly believe God brought them into my life for a reason, and that period of life was one of reasons. I can’t explain how much those people mean to me, and yet I realize in some circles they shouldn’t have that place. Snobs is the only ‘nice’ label I can come up with with their opinions on that. God provided with those people, because they didn’t. Its hard to wrap your mind around that.

    My friends know about my feelings and beliefs on how the church deals with abuse, gender, and yes tragedies like this story. I think they feel it is a good reason to stay away from a faith organization, and I’m not so sure they understand my fight for change. They respect it though. As I walk in life when the uglies happen? I know they will be there for me, and I still thank the Lord that he placed them in my life. They deal with the uglies with me, and I know they would stand by me during other trials as well. They also know I would do the same for them.

    No doubt the church would feel they are ‘of this world’, but I wonder at times what they are. Standing by truth isn’t always an awesome testimony story they can share in church to garner the emotion they are looking for. Not everyone has that ‘happily ever after’ ending they are quick to mention each and every Sunday. lol ever notice they leave out most of the details over the suffering until they got to that point? The journey is almost a side note, and its not white washed enough for them. They truly only want to hear about the part on how you landed where you were suppose to.

    The ‘HOLY HUSH’ is their downfall, and sadly they don’t even see it.

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  5. I know of a case involving HOFCC (part of the family-integrated churches that Gregg Harris started up – Gregg Harris is Josh Harris’ father). The victim’s family was abandoned. The wives of the church were forbidden to talk about the sex abuse case because that was “gossip.” So the mother of the sex abuse victim was basically shunned by her church family. Because of the abandonment by the church, the family sold their home at a loss, moved away and no longer attend church at all. They are too hurt and angry at God: first their child was abused, secondly, they were abandoned. Sick, sick, sick.

    What should have happened:
    1. Notify police
    2. immediately care for victim’s family with plan in place for meals, yardwork, OUTSIDE counseling, etc.

    The time to take care of the perpetrator is after the abuse victims are cared for. Let the civil court system do its process first and then deal with the spiritual ramifications, if necessary, while the perpetrator is behind bars.

    Good grief, we have it so backwards at churches.

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  6. Isn’t it interesting that these abuse victims are left with no recourse but to get government assistance – – – the same government assistance that so many fundamentalists reject by claiming the church takes care of their own. Blech.

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  7. This story is so sad. Experts consider the families of pastoral abusers to be “secondary victims,” and their pain can be as great as the primary victims’ pain. Their financial loss can be even greater. The church has a duty to care for them too. But then — the church doesn’t have such a great record with primary victims. I’m sad, but not surprised, that they would neglect and ignore the needs of secondary victims like this innocent woman and her children.

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  8. Brenda, your story breaks my heart. I wish I lived closer to help. What you and your daughter have overcome is simply incredible. You are a superhero in my eyes. Your church should be ashamed of itself for not helping.

    Right now I am currently providing groceries for a family going through financial hardships – their church also can’t be bothered. In the past, I gave all of my apartment furniture away to various friends in need when I moved back in with my parents. I don’t know why more people don’t empty their storage units and junk rooms and simply give what they have to those who don’t have. But that is how I was raised.

    I was diagnosed with celiac disease when I was a junior in college; upon learning of my new eating requirements, my college minister asked me to no longer attend the college ministry Sunday School and other events – he didn’t want to explain to the benefactors why I was insulting them by not eating the food they “graciously” provided. I told him to take his foot out of his mouth and apologize, church should never revolve around food. That same church, a megachurch of 6000+ members, also refused to help me after my family lost our house in a hurricane.

    I wish churches would focus on and teach Matthew 22:36-40 for an entire year instead of focusing on glitzy building programs or other extraneous things. Lives would be changed; then again pastors might lose their six figure salaries too. Oops.

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  9. Great post Brenda – i am so sorry that you went throught this hell and that you did not find the support and care you needed and deserved from the Church.

    I left my abusive husband 2 years ago and received very little help from my Church. A secular charity supported me with food vouchers and furniture vouchers and my non-christian (Buddhist) brother paid my rent for me and the kids. I did receive great help from my close Christian female friends though and this has pretty much saved me from throwing away my faith as i was so hurt by my Church’s lack of pastoral care to me.

    I too felt like a pariah. I still do. I am in a new Church now but few of the people there know about my ex. This Church has a mission to single parents and fix their cars etc. There was a huge offering taken for the single parents last Christmas. It’s a breath of fresh air.

    The Church does not deal well with anything outside of ‘clean and shiny’ in my experience. Jesus let a prostitute clean His feet with her hair in a room full of very religious men. He wasn’t afraid of people and situations not ‘clean and shiny’. I think He was demonstrating a ‘don’t be afraid to get dirty’ gospel not a ‘bury your heads in the sand and pretend sh*t doesn’t exist’ one. Life is not ‘clean and shiny’ for all Christians and the Church needs to wake up and smell the coffee on that.

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  10. My daughter and grandchildren have recently left an abusive husband and father. They are living with us while we arrange for a new safe home for them. Her husband has had a “change of heart” and has suddenly gone from abusive and controlling to a repentant man who has changed his life and gone back to church. We didn’t think it could happen in our little church but like so many stories I’ve read, he has become the good guy and my daughter the bad girl who won’t go to counselling and work to put the family back together. This will not happen. We had to get a restraining order against him because of an intimidating altercation with my husband –we feel our lives are in danger. And now the church has asked her to step aside from her duties for a while, supposedly because she needs time to get the children’s lives back on an even keel. He wins. She is devastated as she loved to do ministry. I’m sure that underlying all of this is the dreaded “D” word. Why does the church shoot its wounded? Where do we go from here? I know where she is going–somewhere else!

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  11. “Who needs lions when you can throw Christians to the Christians? ”
    Steve Smith, Liberty for Captives

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  12. We didn’t think it could happen in our little church but like so many stories I’ve read, he has become the good guy and my daughter the bad girl who won’t go to counselling and work to put the family back together. This will not happen.

    If there has been abuse going on, what I have been reading all over the place is that couples counseling just will not work. It makes sense to me because if husband is abusing, wife is in survival mode. She may not be acting “normally.” She’s doing the best she can under the circumstances. It’s not the time to deal with her responses to the abuse. Stop the abuser FIRST. Get the abuser out of the house. I think we have a long way to go on this issue with pastors in couples counseling. Once abuse enters the picture, pastors have no business counseling a couple at all. What needs to happen is church discipline.

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  13. Abigail: Welcome! I’m very saddened to hear that you’ve experienced the same kind of treatment as Brenda. Ugh! I love your illustration of the prostitution at Jesus’ feet. That is so beautiful and He is the example people should be following.

    How are you doing now?

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  14. “We didn’t think it could happen in our little church but like so many stories I’ve read, he has become the good guy and my daughter the bad girl who won’t go to counselling and work to put the family back together. ”

    They are the first ones to fall for the repentant sinner which reads like a “notch” on the belt. Tell me, was he a professing Christian when he was abusing? Wonder how that happens? Because sinners sin?

    Now she is the sinner. That is usually how it works. Her abusive husband is as clever as most abusers can be. The trick is not to care what they think. That is hard.

    Run! And know there are prayers here for you all.

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  15. “Who needs lions when you can throw Christians to the Christians? ”
    Steve Smith, Liberty for Captives”

    Jimmy dee that is classic.

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  16. “The Church does not deal well with anything outside of ‘clean and shiny’ in my experience”

    Very true. Clean and shiny brings in the money.

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  17. Brenda,

    Dealing with an abuse situation is excruciating enough. Financial problems, alone, are debilitating. Combined they had me curled in the fetal position on my sofa for a month. My heart goes out to you!
    I’m not at all surprised that your Buddhist gay brother was so supportive. My sister is lesbian. She and her partner are some of the most generous people I know. People like your brother and my sister put so many “Christians” to shame.

    There are some wonderful people out there, though. Thanks to a generous donation from a SSB reader, my daughter will have desperately needed oral surgery this week. (Thank you, whoever you are– from the bottom of my heart.)

    I’ve already decided that I will never tithe to another church. Ever. When we’re back on our feet, I’d like to start “tithing” to another cause– maybe a women’s abuse shelter, or something like that. I’d like my money to go toward meeting practical needs like you’ve expressed here. Sadly, I don’t believe the “church” will ever come through in this area.

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  19. Another One,

    Good for you that you don’t buy your s-i-l “abusers change of heart”. Just because he went back to church doesn’t mean jack s***.

    I love that you are keeping your daughter & your grandchildren safe.

    I know it might sound shallow to say I ache for your daughter & her kids. But it breaks my heart and p****** me off that she has been asked to step down from ministry.

    I will say a prayer for you & your family tonight. Glad you have the wisdom & sense to protect your family.
    So sorry for your suffering, I cannot imagine if it was my daughter & my grand kids.

    I grew up in a nightmare of a home, if my dad wasn’t chasing us with a shot gun & threatening to kill all of us he was beating my mother to a pulp… Yet he mascaraed as a kind business man & Pharmacist & store owner. Abusers are manipulate liars, control freaks, especially when it comes to their images. Be safe & God bless you & yours.

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  21. Gay Buddhists care for desperate women abandoned by religious leaders. Who is caring for the least of these? Who, therefore, is saved?

    Just taking Jesus’ words at face value. Makes me a heretic I gless.

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  22. I am with you BTDT: “I’ve already decided that I will never tithe to another church.”

    I am so over giving to bricks & mortar & egos. My hubby & I now give to people who cross our path. Freedom!

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  24. There are some wonderful people out there, though. Thanks to a generous donation from a SSB reader, my daughter will have desperately needed oral surgery this week. (Thank you, whoever you are– from the bottom of my heart.)

    I don’t know if you guys caught this comment of BTDT’s. But I want to share a bit more.

    You know the week where we got into all the Calvinism stuff and reading Oasis’ comments sent my head spinning and I could not get some of the stuff out of my mind – – – which led to my post on my abusive childhood? Anyway, I was really down that week . . . really, really down. As I’ve said it before, some of those teachings really mess with my head.

    Out of the clear blue, I got an e-mail from one of our regulars who had read BTDT’s spiritual abuse story. This person sensed God telling them to give BTDT $$ and contacted me to see if I could be the go-between. When I got the e-mail and realized what was happening I think I sobbed for an entire hour. I was so overwhelmed, I contacted my support team to share with them and they, too, were so moved. Little did this donor know that they were blessing ME at just the time I needed it – – (God and His timing again).

    God was once again showing me how much He cares for His own and I got to be part of this. Oh my, it was so beautiful. I sent the donor’s $$ off to BTDT and now she has revealed here (and revealed to me earlier) that they were struggling to get the $$ to pay for the necessary oral surgery. The donated $$ covered the cost. Wow. So anyway, I’m glad BTDT shared this. We have such amazing things going on here. This is the Body of Christ in action here. I love US 🙂

    BTDT – thank you for sharing about the gift. I think it’s good for people to know that SSB is just not some cyber place where people waste their time doing nothing. There has been real healing, real prayers answered, and even practical needs met. Praise God!

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  25. I am so over giving to bricks & mortar & egos. My hubby & I now give to people who cross our path. Freedom!

    This makes so much better sense – – to give where you see actual need, not wants.

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  26. Thank you everyone for your kind expressions of support and affirmation. It means the world to me.

    BTDT, it is true that the “church” has much to learn from the LGBTQ community in terms of how to care and support one another.

    Another One–your daughter’s story is almost identical to my sister’s. Even though she began attending the church first, when her abusive husband began attending he became the priority. When she finally decided to get out of the marriage, she was asked to leave the church.

    And JA, you are so accurate. Couples counseling is never recommended when abuse is present. Far too often inexperienced or incompetent therapists and pastors attempt this and the outcomes can be devastating. There are many wonderful shelters for abused women and services are almost always offered free of charge. This is a far better resource for abused women than a pastor or a therapist attempting couples therapy.

    I am encouraged by the people who are faithful to this blog–it feels to me like a ground swell is growing of disaffected Christians concerned about the abuses and extremes of conservative churches. I have hope when I see your passion, compassion and sense of outrage at what is truly outrageous behavior. God help us if we loose that righteous anger.

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  27. Brenda,

    Is your ex husband’s former employer aware how devastating their abandonment of you has been? Have they been confronted? Is there any hope that if somebody knew they would reach out? Maybe repent of their omissions?

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  28. Thank you all so much for your encouragement. We are in a dark place right now with so many scenarios going on. The oldest grandchild does not want to see the father– the other two would like to see him but he is under court order not to contact my daughter, my husband and myself and not to set foot on our property. How do we arrange a visit then? His mother is a dangerous person who is mentally unstable–she wants to see the kids, they don’t want to see her. She called children’s services because she was afraid they were in danger in our care. They came and interviewed the kids and talked about “safety”. We have all of this to deal with–we are getting a lawyer’s advice–and where is the church? Where are the men on the board who are supposed to care for widows and children? They are caring for the abuser. He is a charmer of course and they have fallen for it. God help them! I know that He sees all of this and that He is in charge, so we have to trust that He will work it out. My husband and I are in our mid-sixties, we are mentally and physically exhausted–we are building the house for our kids–and now it appears we have no church family. I’m so thankful for family on this blog–thank you Julie Anne for all you do for others. God bless you.

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  29. So many sad stories. My heart goes out to all of you. Although I give to my church I no longer give anything to the benevolence fund because I have years of proof that it isn’t spent properly.

    – – –

    Let me throw in more stories …from being in the inner workings of a mega church. Megas are incredibly stingy about money. They create little rules such as “don’t give more than once.” But they break this rule all the time for people they like. I was in lay leadership and as a member knew where all benevolence money designated for single mothers went.

    1. The month I asked for $1000 for a depressed welfare mother with two children who needed a car. I had known her 5 years, had been in her home several times. I was turned down, only to discover that a wealthy lawyer was given $4000 to help with his wife’s eye surgery. They more the associate pastors explained the angrier I got. They were puffing themselves up for having done the “right thing.” The benevolence fund at the time had $60,000.

    2. At another point, one of the pastors *almost* asked me not to help this women. (His words.) He’s lucky he didn’t because I would have gone Jesus on him.

    3. I asked to see the detail on our church’s Single Mother’s Special Needs Fund, only to discover it was being used for catering, speakers, and comedians. I confronted the wayward pastor in charge and he defended it. So I had to climb the ladder and go to the senior pastor and elders. The money was put back into the fund. But here’s the problem, when you put people in charge who’ve never been poor, they are incapable of giving money away. They see themselves as Wall Street investors. I guarantee, poor people never look like good investments to anyone but Jesus.

    4. A couple in my church wanted to give $1000 to a particular single mother in our Sunday school class. Both parties knew each other well. The woman was in genuine need due to missing two weeks of work to care for her sick teenage daughter. The church asked her to fill out a 4-page form that had 80 detailed financial questions — IRS style. In 15 years at that church I have never once seen anyone pull out that form. Shame on them.

    I found a non-profit in another state that is run by people who truly understand. I don’t give an benevolence money to churches anymore, just money for their general fund.

    If you attend a church that has open books, be sure to look through the “special needs” or “emergency needs” funds and see how the money is being spent. You might be shocked.

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  30. Gary, I am not sure my ex’s former employer even cares. They made the decision very early in the process to sever all ties to anyone connected to my ex, which included my daughter and I. For them, the bottom line is keeping the donors happy and polishing their tarnished image.

    Interestingly, as my ex was being walked out my door in handcuffs, the absolute first call I made was to the highest ranking official in the office at his place of employment. My daughter called my sons and I called his employer. I knew that the State’s Attorney was releasing a statement to the press and I wanted the employer to have an opportunity to prepare for the onslaught. I remember telling the official that I hoped they would remember my generosity when they decided what to do with him and by extension, us. It didn’t.

    Another One — I am so sorry for the pain, confusion and fear you are experiencing. Has your daughter contacted a local Women’s Shelter? They have services for her and probably for her children that can be very helpful–the services, including counseling and group therapy, are usually free of charge.

    Since you have a restraining order, you can ask the court for assistance in child visitation. And I am curious, is your “restraining order” termed that or is it maybe called an “order of protection?” The difference can be very important, depending on where you live. Staff at your nearest Domestic Violence Shelter will be able to explain the difference to you and help you obtain an order of protection if you don’t already have one.

    Separation violence is very real and is perhaps one of the most dangerous times for the abused wife. When the abuser feels he is losing power over his partner (i.e. she is taking steps to leave the relationship) he doubles down on his efforts to regain power over her. In your SIL’s case, it appears that he is using the church and his “charm” right now. When he sees that is not working, he may resort to violence. So, if you feel unsafe, chances are that you truly are unsafe. Again, the DV shelter will be able to help you create a safety plan for your daughter, her children as well as you and your husband.

    And Anon 3 — now I am really angry! What money-changers in the Lord’s temple!

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  31. As I read this article and the comments I could not stop thinking–sad, sad stories of Christians and congregations failing to represent God well in the face of overwhelming opportunities to show the love and grace of God to those in need!

    I would suggest one major problem is the mega church format. “Congregations” that large usually digress into nothing more than service organizations. The large number of people make it nearly impossible to provide anything but impersonal services of a “spiritual” flavor.

    I don’t think abandoning the local, visible manifestation of God’s church is the answer. Without people, resources, and input the churches are unable to see this horrible blind spot and correct course.

    I believe this philosophy of abandonment of the needy and a willingness to only deal with the “clean and shiny” is the natural fallout of the church’s withdrawal from social issues during the civil rights era. To validate the abandonment of the needy during the civil rights era a theology with no practical applications was developed and any theological perspective that actually applied the teachings of Christ in a way that resulted in the hungry being fed, the naked being clothed, the hurting being comforted, etc. was demonized with the label “liberal” or worse yet “social gospel”.

    Finally, I would say to those who are a part of a local congregation to challenge the norm. Develop ministries that fulfill the practical aspects of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. One person can have a great impact on the life of a congregation and be the catalyst for moving a congregation from the business model that has replaced the ministry model that Jesus gave us.

    My prayers are with those who are hurting and not receiving the care they should from their congregations and Christian friends. Thank you to the person from this board who donated to make the little girls dental work possible. Practical Christianity is much more beautiful than theoretical Christianity.

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  32. Sad stories Anon 3 that support my position that mega churches become impersonal businesses because of overwhelming numbers. You have made a wise decision to stop giving to the mislabeled “benevolence” fund. They need to come up with another name for it like the “Greasing the wheels” fund or something else that would be a little more accurate—$4000 for a lawyer’s wife’s medical bills, UNBELIEVABLE!!

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  33. My husband and I are in our mid-sixties, we are mentally and physically exhausted–we are building the house for our kids–and now it appears we have no church family. I’m so thankful for family on this blog–thank you Julie Anne for all you do for others. God bless you.

    Anotherone: Your situation with your daughter and grandchildren is beyond sad. It angers me. Please feel free to vent here anytime (or come to the SSB forum). You need support, too!

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  34. Brenda,

    So, though I have fond memories of time spent on a certain campus, there is maybe little hope of finding a well known Christian institution were maintaining image has not replaced the expression, in action, of agape love? I am not angry so much as I am very deeply grieved–grieved for you, grieved for us all.

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  35. Until restitution is made in full, repentance is but a cruel farce.

    But it’s doublepluswarmfeelies for the church elders the perp “repented” to, and that’s what’s REALLY important.

    As for the abused ex and kids, they not only stand in the way of The Testimony(TM), but they have divorce cooties.

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  36. “I don’t think abandoning the local, visible manifestation of God’s church is the answer.”

    In order to clean the institutions up, people will have to abandon them. It is about money and influence. Once that goes, the leaders (those making bank off Jesus’ name) either have to find a stage where they can find influence somewhere else or turn to God.

    I would not agree that a sign with “church” on it means a local, visible manifestation of God’s church. I think that is a huge stretch unless you are redefining what it means to follow Christ.

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  37. I don’t believe a sign with anything on it is a local church but local churches are composed of flawed but redeemed people.

    I also do not recall a call by Paul to abandon the church at Corinth. They were simply instructed to correct course. I do not recall a call by Jesus to abandon the seven churches of Asia but to correct course. Now I will admit that some groups claiming to be churches have none of the biblical characteristics of churches and are therefore not churches at all but that is not the norm for local congregations.

    Like

  38. The original poster said,
    I needed friends who would call and invite me to a family dinner or take me out for a meal. Instead, I had a few friends who wanted to connect but never offered to pay for my meal and often used the time to bend my ear about their struggles.

    This is one reason of several I have been teetering on the brink of being agnostic and leaving the Christian faith. I wrote about this at the TWW blog, too…

    Many Christians can be dreadful at offering the kind of compassion and practical assistance a hurting person needs, whether it is to allot two hours a week or month to let a hurting friend vent about their pain, or bring them pre cooked dinners, or give them some financial assistance.

    After my mother died and I needed support, I was brushed aside. I had no one to turn to.

    The Christians at a church I went to for a few months were of no help (one of them even began criticizing me and giving platitudes). Yet others (including regular church going extended family) either blew me off or were judgmental.

    I had a couple of online friends who, when I went to them to discuss my mother’s passing, chose instead to talk about their broken plumbing, chipped nail polish, and broken cell phones. They expected me to comfort them over that stuff, rather than them providing a sympathetic ear over my grief.

    I can really, really relate to this situation; needing help, empathy, encouragement, but instead getting
    1. the cold shoulder or
    2. judgement/ criticism/ advice / platitudes and
    3. the person making it all about them.

    I also relate to the part about how the Buddhist brother was the one to offer real help. During my time of loss what little support I got was from a couple of online acquaintances, one a lapsed Catholic, the other a pagan (Non Christian woman).

    I’m very sorry the original poster, Brenda, went through this. I just so relate it’s not funny.

    Maybe churches should start offering “Basic Compassion 101” courses, because a lot of Christians really need it.

    I’m also afraid it’s common.

    After my mother’s death, I went on the internet to find forums by and for Christians about grief and mourning.

    I found testimony after testimony by Christians who said in their time of need (whether it was grief, divorce, job loss, being a domestic abuse victim, etc), when they went to Christian friends/family or their churches for sympathy, financial help, or free groceries, these sources would not help them but would criticize them, judge them, or give unsolicited advice.

    I’m afraid a lot of Christians or churches have twisted ideas about when and how to help another hurting Christian. Some want to attach strings to the help.

    Some don’t want to do anything at all to help someone at all, and I am not sure if that is because they are lazy or cheap skates, or why.

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  39. Oh, when I said,
    “… the other a pagan (Non Christian woman)”

    I mean that is how that Non Christian friend classified herself, as a pagan.

    She sometimes referred to herself as a Wiccan, or she used other labels.

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  40. missdaisyflower – reading you comments, and reflecting on WR’s, what I think you are saying is that due to the conduct of supposed Christians, you would deny believing in God altogether? – I think that’s what I’ve read.

    All – This is a reminder that Christians are to model the Love of God (Ephe 5). Correct course as WR put it. A great and grave reminder to be ministers of the Gospel, each and every one of us, where we can, when we can. Keep our eyes open to the needs of those around us and act. I’m reminded of a song from Keith Green where he sings, “Jesus isn’t like that, he’s perfect in every way.” Yes. This doesn’t change the need for those who believe to LIVE our faith. I think this is one of the answers that need to come from boards; LIVE what we believe? Those who believe, will, when we don’t miss seeing the need.

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  41. I do think churches should help divorced ladies and single parents, and on occasion, I do read about some churches having programs to help such people, which is fine and good – but there are a lot of never married men and women, who are childless, who are over 30, 40, 50 years of age who also need help.

    Sometimes, older, childless singles may get surgery and need someone to bring them food, mow their lawn, or the single women (unless they are car experts) may need a guy to fix their car, change the oil for them, etc.

    Never- married, childless adults past the age of 30 are even lower on the church totem pole in terms of care and concern than single parents, widows, and divorced, based on my experience and from testimonies I’ve seen on blogs and read about in books about Christian singles.

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  42. Ric, yes, that’s mostly right.

    I have many other reasons why I am becoming agnostic and want to leave the faith, or am finding myself walk away from it, though, not just that one.

    (I have mentioned some of those reasons in an older thread or two at this blog, as well as at the Wartburg Watch blog.) I do not see that the Christian faith itself works. So some of my reasons are theological and don’t have anything to do with how Christians themselves act, but yes, how Christians act has been one ingredient.

    I used to help people, too. I wasn’t one of those Christians who would say “I will pray for you,” and walk off, but I was the type who would get down on my knees and scrub your floor for you, and take out your trash if you were sick, and that type of thing (that’s the example my mother set for me).

    That my mother (who was Christian) used to get off her duff and HELP people – she would cook for them, clean, give them money, etc, makes it even more confounding to me that after she died the “Christians” I knew or was related to wouldn’t do squat for me, other than one or two small gestures by one or two of them. I assumed other Christians were like my mom and would take steps to help me, but all I got was brushed off or criticism.

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  44. Miss Daisy Flower,
    Your story breaks my heart. I am so sorry that you have been so terribly wounded by “religious” people. I am so sorry and I can understand why you are walking away from faith–though I am so sad to see that as well.

    While I am incredibly disillusioned by organized religion, I have found a deeper relationship with Jesus through the pain of the past months. The pain has stripped away so much “junk” that cluttered up my spiritual view and experience of God. I had a head knowledge of God’s love for me but certainly did not live loved–did not feel that He loved me. But as I have grieved and grieved and grieved, I have found a deeper peace and experience of Him. My theology is far less defined and I am more comfortable with mystery and paradox. While I wish I had been able to achieve what I am now enjoying spiritually without pain, it rarely happens that way. All I know for sure is this: “Jesus loves me, this I know.”

    And Gary W., I think I know the campus you are referring to and I am afraid that most religious organizations–churches, nonprofits, institutions of higher education, etc. are first and foremost businesses. The bottom line is always the dollar and image is critical to getting those dollars. No wonder friends like Miss Daisy Flower want nothing more to do with it. Businesses are not ministries and I guess we need adjust our expectations and change how we view them.

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  45. “I also do not recall a call by Paul to abandon the church at Corinth. They were simply instructed to correct course. I do not recall a call by Jesus to abandon the seven churches of Asia but to correct course. Now I will admit that some groups claiming to be churches have none of the biblical characteristics of churches and are therefore not churches at all but that is not the norm for local congregations.”

    Wesley,

    Can you tell us the name of the senior pastor at the church or Corinth? How about the youth pastor? Did it have a steeple? A pulpit? How about the names of any elders? Deacons? We know “Chloe had people” but what does that mean? What was it’s legal structure in Corinth? Was it a 501c4?

    So what exactly are you saying we should not abandon? The Western concept of the institutionalized church which is a business or the Body of Christ?

    I submit to you if it does not look like a Body of Christ it is not a church. It is playing pretend church. And what do you think “remove my lampstand” means?

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  46. ‘While I wish I had been able to achieve what I am now enjoying spiritually without pain, it rarely happens that way. All I know for sure is this: “Jesus loves me, this I know.”’

    I love this, Brenda. I am glad you are at that place – saddened about the journey you had to take to get there, but grateful that you are now at peace spiritually.

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  47. What’s a church to do? Course correction? Hmm. Reminds me of “Pull up! Pull up!” warning in cockpit. A pilot has mere minutes to avoid disaster. How many weeks, months, years do we tell someone who needs help to wait or “hang in there” for Christians & churches to correct their course? What we are seeing is complete train derailment. The train needs to get back on track before it can course correct. The lack of light is not due to a dead light bulb, we’re talking the lampstand/streetlight that the light bulb screws into is likely GONE at this point! Let us face reality. Repentance & restoration is what is needed. People are crying out for justice in church & it’s falling on deaf ears, for crying out loud.

    We don’t let our kids get away with sassing back, they get loving course corrections. But slap a Christian, gospel, glory, grace label on a church & the slack is longer than a kite string to the moon. Where are the prophets of our day, for goodness sake? Many churches need to be called to repentance, IMO. Until these churches change their ways, they should get zero support. That is true loving action.

    I love what Anon3 said, “He’s lucky he didn’t because I would have “gone Jesus” on him”. We need to “go Jesus” on Corporate Culture Christians, who do it politically correct style. Country Club Church Clique 2013 hardly looks like the agape love that Gary W mentions. We need to tell these churches about Jesus & call them to repentance.

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  48. Lydia I do not know the names of the people who performed the ministries that you referenced but because of the teaching of Scripture I am sure these ministries were carried out. The particular persons carrying out the ministries is irrelevant.

    Lydia I am sure that the church at Corinth had some corporate meeting place or else the epistles to the Corinthians would have been useless and the instruction to separate from the man living with his father’s wife would have been impossible to carry out. The exact furnishings and structure of the place they assembled in is irrelevant and purely cultural.

    I am sure that the church was not a 501c4 or 501c3 since neither the IRS or the United States were in existence. I am sure that there was some form of polity in the early churches because Scripture presents us with instances of this organization working in the resolution of the question of Gentile observance of ceremonial law and in the church sending Paul and Silas out to bring the Gospel to Asia and Europe.

    We should not abandon the assembling of ourselves together as Scripture instructs us. We should not abandon the biblical practice of these assemblies or churches combining their gifts to edify and instruct the congregation to prepare the members of that congregation to minister to others through the spread of the Gospel and the practical application of the Gospel to their own lives resulting in ministry to those in the community. You know a church. A church like the local visible assemblies of believers as demanded by the etymology of the word ecclesia and the predominate usage of the word in Scripture.

    What I am saying is that we should not treat the church like a business that is not meeting our customer expectations but instead like our bodies. As consumers we find another solution when the business is not meeting our needs but when it comes to our bodies we seek healing and restoration instead of amputation. We accept the fact that sometimes our members are broken and sometimes our members do not function properly. When this happens we seek healing and rehabilitation. We also accept the fact that sometimes viruses and bacteria enter our bodies that are harmful so we seek to remove these but we are careful realizing that some bacteria are necessary for life and others make us better by making us stronger and producing antigens that will equip us to deal with bacteria and viruses that our bodies encounter in the future. No matter how bad a condition our bodies are in we do not seek to abandon it but we seek its healing. I wonder if that is what Christ is telling us when He describes the church in Laodecia that we would abandon but instead Jesus stands at the door knocking. Jesus is seeking to heal this church and we should do the same since after all churches are not buildings or businesses but people who need to be ministered to just like we do. I submit that this is part of the ministry of the church as it makes all of us ministers.

    Remove my lampstand is something that Jesus does not the believers. Jesus did not say abandon the church to those in the seven churches but He did say to repent and return to proper practices and attitudes or one might say correct course.

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  49. Wesley,

    I perceive that we are blessed with multiple prophetesses here. They are speaking from depths that the male mind seldom apprehends. They have won their commissions, and their credibility, through great suffering. You and I will do well to listen intently. We have nothing to contribute, especially by way of pushback, or even advice, until we have done so.

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  50. Gary you are correct in that these ladies have some insights that we lack. I have learned and been challenged and changed by some of their insights. I also believe we have some insights that they lack as well. Scripture is clear that all of the body cannot be an eye or ear and be a healthy body. What we should seek is a synthesis of these insights instead of an acceptance of some to the exclusion of others. As I often say it is not an either/or situation but an and/both..

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  52. Gary W

    With all you have written – that I have appreciated…
    These last words were – Great words of wisdom…

    “I perceive that we are blessed with multiple prophetesses here. They are speaking from depths that the male mind seldom apprehends. They have won their commissions, and their credibility, through great suffering. You and I will do well to listen intently.”

    These wonderful, courageous, ladies commenting – Have virtually silenced me…
    I stand in awe of their wisdom and ability…

    Seems every time I start to write something…
    It pales in comparison to what has been written…
    And all I can do is “listen intently.”

    My sisters in Christ have said it so well – And from the depths of their heart.

    Thank you Jesus

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  53. To the men here who are questioning why some of us women have left the corporate church of America, please stop your questions and put yourselves in our shoes. Try to imagine what it is like time after time to be treated the way we have by people who are supposed to be our fellow believers. There is tremendous pain being inflicted here and one person speaking up in a corporate church is not going to be able to do much. It is going to take a massive uprising to take back our churches. At this very moment I am writing a letter to my former church resigning my membership with their organization. I will never formally join a church again. I still identify as a believer but its challenging. I am sick and tired of being told by other people that all I need to do is trust God more and have faith that He will heal me from my chronic pain and disabilities, that the problem lies in me. Um, no. Its been over sixteen years since I can remember a pain-free day and I am in my mid-twenties now. The corporate American church has fallen down on the job of taking care of “the least of these”.

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  54. Mandy, I pray for your healing. In the meantime, for what it’s worth, we do live in the kingdom of Satan, who wants everyone to suffer and die. I pray also that Jesus returns quickly for his own and takes us to the kingdom of which we are citizens.

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  55. Assembling together doesn’t always mean a church Wesley Roy. You can assemble with a group of believers. People do this all over the world. Many have no ‘building’ to assemble in.

    When people refuse to acknowledge the virus and bacteria it tends to spread, and kill everything it comes in contact with. You have to acknowledge its there in order to deal with it. Sadly, at times no matter what the approach some will refuse to acknowledge its there. People call out for someone to listen…and they are ignored. People begin to leave, and they are accused of not having enough faith. If they can ignore the virus and bacteria – everyone should. Even Jesus told his followers when they were not accepted in certain towns to keep walking, and he didn’t say it was abandonment.

    Take for your trip only the clothes you are wearing. When you go into a house, stay there until it is time to leave. If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them.

    Yet, to many places today ignore the warning…and blame those that are leaving. They claim its perfection they want, and I guess that makes them feel better to believe it. I mean we are talking about those that ignore the virus and bacteria here! Walking away is a testimony against them as scripture state…but the denial is too great!

    I have no doubt people would start to return if the denial was removed. I have to leave that in God’s hands, because I’m not capable of doing it myself. Until God convicts that things are different? Assembly in small groups of believers is where he wishes me to be.

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  56. Gail

    I’m with you when you say @ SEPTEMBER 8, 2013 @ 7:18 PM…

    “I am so over giving to bricks & mortar & egos.
    My hubby & I now give to people who cross our path. Freedom!”

    Hadn’t thought about the “Egos” part – Think I’ll refer to that more often.

    Yes – It is “Freedom” – And once you get a taste of “Freedom” in Jesus. – It’s tough going back to the “Bondage” of “The Corrupt Religious System” of today.

    2 Cor 3:17
    Now the Lord is that Spirit:
    and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    NOT much “Liberty” in the 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious Corporations, that the IRS calls church.

    These Corporations are big on – Eternal Life is a free gift…
    You’re No longer living under the law – But – NOW living under Grace…

    But – Then you “Sign On” as a member of the Corporation…
    And now you have “their list” of rules and requirements – to live up to…
    To be a good Christian…
    Giving money – Giving time – Giving talents…
    Submitting to pastors – Submitting to church leadership…
    And now you’re back in “Bondage” to “The Corrupt Religious System.”

    When you believe the lie you start to die…
    When you live the lie you die slowly – day by day…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  57. Hannah you are free to do whatever you like. I, however, am convicted that I must comply with what I know Scripture to teach since ecclesia does not mean two friends gathering for coffee. Your decision is no problem for me just as mine should be no problem for anyone else.

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  58. Wesley, what did Jesus mean by “Where two or three gather in my name, there I am with them”? Or “The time has come for people to worship God, not here or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth”? Or “Not so among you”?

    And where are the instructions from Paul or Peter about church hierarchy? I see a description of leaders and teachers, but nothing about authority (yes, I’ve studied the Greek; there is no hierarchy).

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  59. A.Amos Love at September 10, 2013 @ 7:36 AM:
    You took the words right out of my mouth on this:

    “Seems every time I start to write something…
    It pales in comparison to what has been written…
    And all I can do is “listen intently.” Yes, yes and amen Amos!

    Reading here has opened my eyes & impacted my heart for good more than the 30 years of going to church. What makes me so sad is I truly thought the reason I was in so much emotional pain when I was a busy church lady was due to the things I suffered as a child. Yes, indeed, the abuse was horrid and I was marked by it. But now with that great gift of hindsight (and this board) I can see how the teaching that I submitted myself to was causing much of my suffering, angst, guilt & shame.

    I could never measure up as I ran around and around on that hamster wheel of serving, giving, sacrificing. You know the drill! So it is a blessed thing to know now as you have said before: I don’t have to do another thing to get God’s love, it is signed sealed and delivered on the bloodstained cross of Jesus. And that just makes me want to love more, not out of guilt or because I was shamed into submission & obedience by a woman hating, control perfection freak, who had his own anger issues as he dressed us sheep down as he beat us from the pulpit.

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  61. boatrocker I never suggested the sanction of an hierarchy in Scripture.

    Jesus is with an individual believer as well as with two or three but that is not an ecclesia.

    Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman was not saying God is not worshiped in a local location but he was saying that God was not locked in Jerusalem or on Sinai. He was destroying the Jewish idea that it was only right to worship God where and how they worshiped Him and the Samaritan idea that it was only right to worship God where and how they worshiped Him and the idea it is only only right to worship God where and how a small group of friends who are not happy with a church consisting of the same elements as the group of disciples Jesus hand picked worship Him. Jesus was removing God from the cultural or ethnic prisons that we place Him in.

    When Jesus said not so among you Jesus was saying that the relationship of Christians as a congregation would not be based on hierarchy but on mutual ministry to each other resulting in the edification, instruction, admonition, and correction of believers by believers as individuals and as congregations/ecclesias.

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  62. Wesley, how is “two or three” not an ekklesia?

    As for the Samaritan woman, I listed it with other things to point out the number of scriptures that teach Jesus came to do much more than die for sins; he came to remove the burden of religion and much more. What he did not come to do was upgrade to Judaism 2.0. If you take away “worship in Jerusalem”, you take away the whole Levitical system… as you should, since Heb. 7 tells us in no uncertain terms that “with a change of priesthood comes a change of law”.

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  63. Gary your statement is inaccurate since Scripture is filled with instructions by God and illustrations of the people of God gathering for worship and instruction in groups larger than two or three.

    On the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 there were 120 in the upper room not 2 or 3 and God blessed their gathering with the presence of His Spirit. When Paul and Barnabas were sent out by the church at Antioch there were more than 2 or 3 gathered. When the question of the Gentiles observance of Jewish ceremonial law was resolved there was more than 2 or 3 gathered in Jerusalem.

    Most churches in America consist 50 to 100 people united as one body to carry out the great commission and the great commandments. The problem is that they do not provide the consumer services that the mega “churches” do. So many flock to these larger churches as consumers seeking a service and then are surprised when they conduct business catering to a particular customer base and they happen to not be a part of that customer base.

    Two suggestions:
    1. Find one of these congregations of 50 to 100 that abound and get involved in the ministry and lives of these saints who are seeking to serve God with sincerity and truth.
    2. Pray for and seek to be a help to those who are doing things wrong. Jesus did not abandon the heartless James and John but instead influenced them and turned John into the apostle of love instead of a son of thunder.

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  64. Mandy

    I’m with you…
    I also left “the corporate church of America,”

    Too much “Church Leadrship” – Saying one thing – doing another.
    Too much “Church Leadrship” placing “heavy burdens” on our shoulders.

    Mat 23:3-4
    …but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
    For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne,
    and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves
    will not move them with one of their fingers.

    And Jesus told His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders.”
    For you have “ONE” leader – Jesus – Mat 23:10 NASB

    And NOT one of His Disciples called them self “Leader”
    They ALL called themselves “Servants.”

    So I now figurer – If someone thinks them self a “Leader”
    They are NOT one of His Disciples…

    I never left – Jesus – The “ONE” Leader…
    Or “The Body of Christ – The Church.”

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  65. boatrocker you know that ecclesia was not used to describe 2 or 3 people. That was not the case in Ephesus when it was used in a secular setting and that was not the case in Jerusalem in the upper room.

    A careful reading of Hebrews does not result in the irradiation of Judaism but a realization that Jesus is the consummation of Judaism. Judaism was not an end in itself but simply part of the progressive revelation of God that was completed in Jesus.

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  66. Wesley,

    Nobody here set an UPPER limit on what constitutes an ekklesia; “two or three” means there is no limit, upper or lower. You have no teachings, no instructions, no specifications in the NT to back up your claim that an ekklesia must have 50 or a thousand or whatever number you prefer. Scriptural mandate is not determined by anecdotal evidence.

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  67. Wesley, read Heb. 7 and tell me how “with a change of priesthood comes a change of law” does not mean what it ways. If this is not an eradication of Judaism for those who are in Christ (Gal. 3:28), then I don’t know what would be. Yes, Jesus was the consummation, but he didn’t stop there; we are “a new creation”, the very Body and Bride of Christ.

    Now try again to answer the question with a scriptural reference: Where does it specify that “two or three” CANNOT be an ekklesia? Chapter and verse.

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  68. Wesley Roy:

    You may not have been trying to be snide, but it sure does come off like that. “gathering for coffee” isn’t what I was talking about.

    You have people in Egypt right now that can’t gather (eccelsia) together, and you have all kinds of different circumstance throughout the world. Almost stating they are not ‘complying’ with scripture? Seriously?

    We are all custom beings, and some maybe able to withstand the ‘virus and bacteria’ laden churches better than others. I’m not talking perfect here! That’s not possible. I’m speaking of churches that sadly buy into the politics of catering to man rather than God. When they turn a blind eye to abuse, abandon families over what one member did, when they support child molesters, and when they refuse to grasp what benevolence truly means? When you realize its a pattern of behavior, and your shamed over and over again when its brought up? I’m sorry but what kind of proper eccelsia can you get out of that atmosphere?

    I remember in Malachi when God said to the men that were living evil lifes, but came to assemble for worship. You remember what was said? Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words.

    “How have we wearied him?” you ask.

    By saying, “All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them”

    Sadly, that is why some gather outside the building of the church and ‘eccelsia’ in the spirit we feel God intended. No, I’m not speaking of gathering for coffee here. I’m talking fellowship and worship with others that is pleasing to God, because at times those ‘formal buildings’ ways do weary God’s intent for eccelsia. You know the spirit of the meaning – not just going to ‘comply’. The men in Malachi no doubt were going to comply as well. God wasn’t’ so red hot happy with their compliance, because their hearts were not right. They missed the point completely.

    I think what some are saying is to many churches miss the heart part – the spirit of it. Sadly, when you point it out? Defensiveness is what is returned, and manipulative statements about the position in God’s eyes is given.

    To many can talk the talk, but they don’t walk the walk. It breaks my heart personally.

    Like

  70. Thanks Gary. Women in the Body have been stifled or shut up in ways that is not ever communicated in the NT for thousand years. But then, it really wasn’t the Body or they would not have been stifled or shut up, would they?

    Over half of all professing believers are women. They have been positioned to be “easily decieved”, or have specific roles that keep them from standing behind some sacred furniture, etc, etc. OR, too many teach that being alone with a woman you are not married to means you will have sex with her because you both are such shallow Christians it is what is on your mind all the time. But that is what a focus on the physical and not the spiritual will result in. So the result is that instead of brothers and sisters in Christ, we are aliens to each other.

    Well, women are leaving the institutions, too. And ironically, they have been the backbone of the institutional church for centuries because they always did things no man would be caught dead doing but is necessary.

    I just want to experience my brothers as true brothers in Christ. I want to synergistically serve Christ with them without all the silliness of patriarchy. Just imagine what we could do if we stripped away all the silliness of the phallocentristic Christianity!

    Like

  71. “boatrocker I never suggested the sanction of an hierarchy in Scripture”

    What is Patriarchy then? What is the point of it as you did defend it as from God in another thread

    Like

  72. Wesley, I am going to be very blunt here and tell you flat out that your words are causing pain and that is not acceptable. I am not in sin for not going to church. I cannot even sit through an hour long service, much less get into most of the local church buildings. But I can “meet for coffee” with friends for a shorter period of time or get up and stretch and still be pleasing to God. My heart is what matters, not my physical location. Even now, I am getting ready to fly out to the west coast and I have to take prescription muscle relaxers just to get through that. I am not about to do that just to sit through a church service. There are millions of people worldwide who simply cannot get to a church service that meets your approval. I sure as hell do not need you trying to make me feel guilty again because my body is not “good enough” to do that. Please show a tiny bit of compassion or move on. Your ideal church of 50 to 100 is just as heartless and mean towards people with disabilities as a megachurch and oftentimes those smaller churches cannot afford to do the renovations to bring them up to accessible standards so either way I am screwed. Pardon me for refusing to injure myself again in an unsafe environment at a small church like I did a week ago at my best friend’s wedding.

    Like

  73. boatrocker

    Thanks for stopping by – I appreciate your wisdom…

    And appreciate your persistence in – “nailing jello to a wall.” 😉

    That’s a great line btw…

    Seems – Those with the “Titles/Position” – NOT found in the Bible – pastor/leader/reverend – And are addicted to the – Power – Profit – Prestige that comes with these “titles” – They do NOT like to be pinned down – Do NOT want to give up that – Power – Profit – Pretige. – Do NOT believe that “WE” – His Ekklesia – His Body – Can Learn from Jesus directly – NO middle Man.

    Jesus said – My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and – Follow Me… John 10:27

    Yup – The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Leader…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  74. It breaks my heart as well Hannah to hear people talking the talk but not wanting to walk the walk. Ministry does not just happen with people that are at the same point on the journey to Christ-likeness. Some are immature like Peter, some lack compassion like James and John, some are doubtful and worriers like Thomas, and some are even unconverted like Judas but that is what ministry looks like. That is what makes it possible for all of us to minister to each other.

    I would be the last to defend a lack of compassion in the churches but I would be naive to think that in a group of people at different stages in the journey to Christ-likeness there would not be those who cannot relate to some situations and those who do not even see the validity of some situations that are major in the lives of other people. I would be the last to defend those who should be ministering as pastors living like kings but I would be naive to assume that this same group would not have unconverted people who are power hungry and people along the journey that do not know how to carry out their ministry and still need guidance like Peter needed from Paul when his racism got the better of him. No one should defend these things but they are an opportunity for ministry in the lives of individuals that comprise the churches.

    I do apologize for the snide remark about the coffee.

    Like

  75. Wesley,

    Most others have responded to your other points well. I do think that we, as Christians, should gather with believers regularly (in whatever form fits the unique mold of the people in question).

    I have a quibble with the following paragraph:

    “On the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 there were 120 in the upper room not 2 or 3 and God blessed their gathering with the presence of His Spirit. When Paul and Barnabas were sent out by the church at Antioch there were more than 2 or 3 gathered. When the question of the Gentiles observance of Jewish ceremonial law was resolved there was more than 2 or 3 gathered in Jerusalem.”

    The events you describe here, the Bible was just simply reporting what was going on, not giving strict, for all eternity rules on how many people in future gatherings in God’s name must be present for God to be present.

    Like

  76. Thanks, Amos 🙂 Yes, I’d like to thank whoever invented the phrase “nail jello to a wall”. A large portion of my blog consists of challenges to the credentialed to follow Jesus’ example in Phil. 2:5-11 and lay privilege down. And even when one or two ‘pastors’ admits that the ekklesia is not to be as tradition has had it, they have yet to step down from the pulpit, give up the cherry-paneled office and reserved parking, and turn the building into a homeless shelter. That’s the kind of “fruit” that would impress me.

    Like

  77. Mandy I did not say you were committing a sin by not being part of a local assembly. I did not say that 50 to 100 was any ideal. I did not deny that there are people who cannot attend church gatherings because of physical limitations. I am not trying to make you feel guilty about anything but rest assured I will not let you make me feel guilty about following the pattern set forth in Scripture.

    I am going to be blunt with you as well. Your lack of respect in your comment is unnecessary but I will not reciprocated. I will not, however, allow you say that all who are part of a local assembly of believers that meet in some building besides someone’s living room lacks compassion or are sinning.

    I have been quite compassionate and have no intentions of moving on. There is a reality that views must be challenged and examined even if they are yours. We had a gentleman who was part of our church several years back that suffered from chronic pain and we did everything he requested to accommodate him. He had purchased special chairs for him to sit in and he requested permission to put one in a side room for him to sit in and hear the teaching but we chose to make adjustments so he could put his seat in the auditorium like everyone else. He also brought one to my home so that he could be comfortable as he shared lunch with my family each Sunday so he would only have to drive the 23 miles home once. We provided him with the means to lie down as well when he requested it in the auditorium. He was free to walk around, sit, stand, or lie down as his situation required at all times. I am not using this to say this is a solution but so that you can speak from an informed perspective.

    If I remember correctly Mandy I have not addressed you at all in this exchange. What gives?

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  78. RMR I am not using that paragraph to show that a hard number is given. You will observe that only instance has a number of 120 the numbers in the other instances are unknown. I am simply pointing out that it is an and/both situation not an either/or.

    Like

  79. Lydia, go back and check my post on patriarchy and you will find that I did not describe it as a hierarchy but particular responsibilities of males to their families. Context would help you again since we were speaking of a church hierarchy.

    Like

  80. boatrocker I think that if we were honest we would have to admit that every time ecclesia is used in the Scriptures it is speaking of more than 2 or 3 people. The word ecclesia is conspicuously missing from Matthew 18:20 so I have no reason to think that 2 or 3 would define an ecclesia.

    To be totally honest I would agree that the 2 or 3 constitute a church if they were actively engaged in obeying the Great Commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) and carrying out the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20). Again it is an and/both not an either/or situation.

    Like

  81. boatrocker

    Yup – Jesus, as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
    and took on the form of a “Servant” Phil 2:7-8…

    But, as sonn as someone becomes “credentialed” and take the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend – They now have a reputation – whether they want it or NOT… 😦

    Reaaly liked your parody of Malichi – Very accurate..
    http://www.fether.net/2008/04/01/malachi-revisited/

    And your efforts are NOT in vain…

    Today there are many “credentialed” folks willing to – “step down from the pulpit, give up the cherry-paneled office and reserved parking.”

    ———

    For your viewing pleasure…
    Check out these two EX-pastors. One 33 yrs – One 3 yrs.

    —————-

    The Glass Pastor – “Casting Off The Task-Masters”
    http://theglasspastor.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/casting-off-the-task-masters/

    “Don’t get me wrong, for my part I did my best to play the role of ‘pastor’, but I always knew that I would not be able to really pull it off. First of all, I didn’t really buy it. **There aren’t any church pastors in the New Testament,** and I could never get past that.”

    —————–

    “I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring”
    http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2010/09/ive-resigned-from-professional.html

    “I’m not sure how else to say this, so here it is:
    I’ve resigned from professional pastoring.

    After much study of scripture, prayer, discussions with some of my friends, and reading good books, I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer in good conscience remain a salaried pastor. I cannot find it anywhere in the bible, so I’m not going to do it.”

    —————–

    Seems the only one in the NT with the “Title/Position” Shepherd/Leader
    Is…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  82. Wesley, you appeal again to anecdotal evidence and not any authoritative command from scripture. There is not one shred of support for your claim that an ekklesia must have a certain minimum of people. If Jesus was not talking about the ekklesia, then what was it called when these two or three gathered in his name? Nothing but a personal meeting, though Jesus promised to be there? Is Jesus plus one or two people not the ekklesia? And what of the Holy Spirit? Doesn’t he count unless a minimal number (which you have not specified) are present?

    It seems you’re taking an accountant’s approach to scripture: if a particular word is missing, then so also the concept is missing.

    So now in your last paragraph you have moved your prior line in the sand. Now an ekklesia must have certain activities the people are engaged in. But again, where is your scriptural backing? Where does Paul specify this? Where does Jesus stipulate this restriction? I am not the one who has been trying to make it either/or; that’s you. You want a wall put up around the ekklesia, to preserve the traditional paradigm.

    Like

  83. boatrocker you have determined to promote your own paradigm at the expense of all others and that will not fly.

    No boatrocker an assembly is not Jesus plus one person. That is a Christian.

    Like

  84. “…but rest assured I will not let you make me feel guilty about following the pattern set forth in Scripture.”

    I think herein lies a problem that has cropped up in this discussion. There seems to be an implication from statements like this that you’re following scripture while others aren’t. I sincerely believe this isn’t what you’re trying to get across. But I can see how some people can be put off by what you’re saying.

    “There is a reality that views must be challenged and examined even if they are yours.”

    This goes both ways.

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  85. Wesley, you are as guilty of promoting your own paradigm as anyone else. I keep appealing to explicit scriptural statements and you keep appealing to anecdotal evidence and tradition. You cling with an iron grip to the old religious paradigm, the one with structure and order imposed by people rather than led by the Holy Spirit, who apparently cannot function without a minimal quorum of unspecified number.

    You seem eager to tell me what an ekklesia is NOT, but not what an ekklesia IS. How many? What must they do? Where are the chapter/verse commands for these requirements? You keep sidestepping these questions, and now you are exasperated and resort to shooting the messenger.

    Like

  88. boatrocker

    Yup – Jesus, as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
    and took on the form of a “Servant” Phil 2:7-8…

    Doen’t sound much like todays “church leaders” wanting the preeminence…
    That belongs only to Jesus

    And, as sonn as someone becomes “credentialed” and take the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend – They now have a reputation – whether they want it or NOT… 😦

    Realy liked your parody of Malichi – Very accurate..
    http://www.fether.net/2008/04/01/malachi-revisited/

    And your efforts are NOT in vain…

    Today there are many “credentialed” folks willing to – “step down from the pulpit, give up the cherry-paneled office and reserved parking.”

    Like

  89. boatrocker

    For your viewing pleasure…
    Check out these two EX-pastors. One 33 yrs – One 3 yrs.

    —————-

    The Glass Pastor – “Casting Off The Task-Masters”
    http://theglasspastor.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/casting-off-the-task-masters/

    “Don’t get me wrong, for my part I did my best to play the role of ‘pastor’, but I always knew that I would not be able to really pull it off. First of all, I didn’t really buy it. **There aren’t any church pastors in the New Testament,** and I could never get past that.”

    Like

  90. “I’ve Resigned from Professional Pastoring”
    http://eric-carpenter.blogspot.com/2010/09/ive-resigned-from-professional.html

    “I’m not sure how else to say this, so here it is:
    I’ve resigned from professional pastoring.

    After much study of scripture, prayer, discussions with some of my friends, and reading good books, I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer in good conscience remain a salaried pastor. I cannot find it anywhere in the bible, so I’m not going to do it.”

    —————–

    Seems the only one in the NT with the “Title/Position” Shepherd/Leader
    Is…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  92. RMR I am not implying that anyone else is not following Scripture. I have been saying over and over again it is an and/both situation and no one seems to hear but those with an opposing view seem to be determined to silence or marginalize the minority view. Unfortunately, I have never been intimidated by the we’re all against you so you can just shut up approach in any area of life.

    boatrocker the examples of Scripture are not anecdotal but instructive. I would suggest you read the Epistles to find the principles of what a church is and then go back and follow the illustration of that through progressive revelation from Israel through the OT into the Gospels and Acts and conclude with Revelation. You will enjoy the read if you can set your preconceived ideas aside you will find that the paradigm put forth in Scripture excludes neither of our views entirely.

    I too have resigned as a salaried pastor……..well maybe not ………… I still want my salary from the machine shop that I work 40+ hours in each week. LOL

    Can I get a cheer as well boatrocker or do I have to see everything exactly as you do? Be careful…….remember this forum was birth out of resistance to guys who hold that you have to agree with them on every point or you are wrong. LOL

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  93. Wesley, it is precisely because I have read the epistles that I reject the traditional, institutional paradigm. The examples you’ve been presenting as prescriptive do not in any way specify minimum ekklesia size or required activities. Where you see an organization, I see an organism. Where you see activities, I see spiritual life. Where you see quantity I see quality. Your anecdotal evidence does not support your case.

    What Israel did or was has exactly nothing to do with what the ekklesia is or does. We are not Israel; we are not under the priesthood of Aaron or Levi; we do not have the shadow but the Reality; we do not have old wine but new wine. The ekklesia is a third entity which is neither Jew nor Greek (Gal. 3:28). And if you read it all with open eyes and drop your preconceived ideas, you may just begin to see that Jesus came to do far more than you thought.

    Wesley, your final paragraph/dare is very condescending and displays a double standard. You want a cheer, a pat on the back, a crown, just for holding your opinions? Or must I too “see everything exactly as you do?” Take your own advice, Wesley. All I’ve done is dare to disagree with you and present my case with scripture; it appears you find this intimidating.

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  94. PS, Wesley… I do understand you wanted a cheer for leaving the paid ministry. But what I was “cheering” was the fact that some are doing this, and if you’re one of them, then you’ve already had your “cheer”. Or did you want a special prize?

    Also, please show the post(s) where I have tried to force everyone to believe as I do. Thanks in advance.

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  95. PPS, Wesley… the more important issue is WHY you left paid ministry, not whether. You still clearly support paid ministry for most, and you clearly support the traditional paradigm. The others left as a matter of conscience and conviction.

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  96. boatrocker I never entered it and you are sadly mistaken to think that I would need your affirmation or anyone else’s. There is a reality of spiritual life in Christ that makes the affirmation of people a non-issue for me just as you have indicated it is for you.

    My final paragraph stands and I do not agree with your conclusions. I am far enough along the path to Christ-likeness to be able to disagree agreeably. I do support ministers being financially cared for by congregations because it is in Scripture. I do support organization in the Scripture because all organisms are organized. I do support traditional and non-traditional church models because Scripture does not say a designated meeting place is wrong and Scripture does say that everyone will not be gifted to teach. I do support pastoral ministry because the Scripture says that God gave to the church pastors, plural not singular.

    It does seem to me that you are just as adamant about having your way only as those who this forum was established to deal with. I on the other hand am willing to say in this instance as I have in others–“It is not a either/or but an and/both situation.”

    Thanks for the conversation but it appears that we have come to an point of agreement that both of us have discounted the arguments of the other so we would be wasting time to continue. God Bless.

    Like

  97. Wesley and All,

    I am a regular here and I make a habit of reading everyone’s comments. I feel strongly that everyone should have a voice and everyone’s voice should be heard. That does not mean that we all agree, but at the least, we can be listening and processing what people are saying in light of the Scripture and people’s experiences in and out of the church.

    I think that I am hearing what you, Wesley, are trying to say. You are stating that there is room for a healthy church group in a local community wherever they meet. I can certainly agree with that. It makes me nervous and grieves me when everything that is called ‘Christian’ or ‘church’ is often dumped in the same bucket. I understand spiritual abuse and recovery–I have a book on the topic–so hopefully have a sensitivity as to what can go so wrong in churches.

    There are all kinds of ‘church’ groups in the world who meet in all kinds of ‘buildings’. There are those who meet in secret, those who meet in a public place, and those who meet in various kinds of church structures, whether traditional or modern. We are social creatures and the gathering and assembling of Christians is something that we see the need for–in varying degrees–and that based on life experiences whether good or bad. Not only that, there is a range of what various Christian groups believe. Christians gathering together, from 2 – 3 to a reasonable group who can be a family to one another, without getting too big, too cliquey, or too anything else, would be my personal ideal, basing that on the NT.

    Though much harm has come to so many people through insensitive churchgoers and harmful church leaders and there is a lot of ‘shaking’ going on in the Church of Jesus Christ, good things are still happening. There are all kinds of places and people groups that the Holy Spirit is working in today–wherever Christ is named as Lord.

    There is the NT, there are spiritual and social traditions that are healthy and there are traditions of man that are unhealthy. You could even say that Christ began a ‘tradition’ for Church by pouring out the Holy Spirit. It then bears investigation how close each individual group holds to the best interpretation of the NT and how much each group is willing to be molded, led, and resurrected by the Holy Spirit for Kingdom purposes.

    Best plan would be to look at individual church communities on a case by case basis. Using the skills gleaned through the pain of spiritual abuse and the recovery process, Christians who have gained insights, that is ‘barometer people’, can be helpful in discerning whether certain groups are healthy or toxic or somewhere in between. BTW, a group of 2 or 3 can still be as toxic as a group that meets in an old church building. Spiritual health or toxicity is the issue, not how small or large a group may be.

    There is still a place for a church building and an assembly of people who love Jesus to be known in the local neighborhood. If everyone meets somewhere else, part of the visible presence of a caring church family can be obscure. There are times to vote with one’s feet and get out of toxic churches. The need is to discern and not to brand every Christian gathering place as toxic before one looks at where and how Christ’s Spirit is working ‘in’ this group and in the local community. God has all kinds of ways of working and he will work wherever his people are open to his Presence!

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  98. Wesley, I guess I shouldn’t take you seriously at all. When you can write “I too have resigned as a salaried pastor” and ask for a cheer, do you think you’re being funny? Is this all a joke to you?

    And pray tell, how have I even hinted that you needed my affirmation? Is that what you’ve been trying to get from me? I thought we were debating a topic, not competing for control. Why do you take every disagreement as an attempt only on my part to control you or force something on you? These are very immature tactics, and I will not fall for them.

    You have done ANYTHING but disagree agreeably.

    And if paid ministers were in scripture, you sure have been reluctant to provide the chapters and verses I keep asking you for. They simply are not there, and you know it. “Organisms are organized” is an Orwellian term if ever there was one. Ask noted historian Phillip Schaff why he wrote this: http://books.fether.net/index.php?theBook=1&theChap=17 .

    I think you compete equally for the title of Most Adamant, Wesley. You too seem insistent that I believe as you do and agree that only your view is Biblical. It appears to bother you greatly that I have stood my ground, and backed it up with explicit statements from scripture. It cannot be “both/and” when the two paradigms are mutually exclusive.

    Agree, we are at an impasse. God bless you too.

    Like

  99. boatrocker I also agree with your assessment but I would say that they apply to you and your arguments. We have found a point of agreement. LOL……….

    Like

  101. Barb,

    No one who advocates an organism paradigm for the ekklesia is saying the groups MUST be small. The point is not the size or number, but the nature and character. Where there is hierarchy there is imbalance in the Body of Christ, which has only one Head.

    But there are problems with jointly-owned property among Christians. One is that it requires legal and financial commitments which can be a ball and chain around the feet of the Body. It also requires funds and maintenance that could be better used for, as I gave an example, providing shelter for the homeless.

    As for a visible presence, we are to be “salt” and “light” as people mingling in our communities. The buildings present the message that the ekklesia exists in certain places, rather than in individual hearts. It says “institution” rather than “family”. The church never grew with buildings as it did without them, historically speaking. Just some things to consider.

    Like

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