Courtship, Family Integrated Churches, Full-Quiver, Homeschool Movement, Modesty and Purity Teachings, Parenting, Patriarchal-Complementarian Movement, Voddie Baucham

Voddie Baucham: Prescription for Spanking and the Shy Child

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One of the traps that we got ourselves caught in was looking to religious leaders for guidance on how to raise our children.  It’s ok to seek guidance, but we didn’t always check what we learned with scripture.  We read a lot of books and went to parenting seminars/classes over the years:  Train Up A Child, Shepherding a Child’s Heart, Titus2.com, Ezzo’s Growing Kids God’s Way, etc.  We weren’t the only ones.  Some of these books/classes were trendy and many churches across the states would jump on the bandwagon.  During the mid 1990s, I spent time visiting homeschool forums online and I’d hear of new parenting books/programs popping up all over the country.    Next thing I knew, our own church was now promoting the program I had just read about online.

In general, we tried to adopt ideas that worked for our family and leave the other stuff behind. That seems like a balanced approach, but we still got ourselves in trouble and I have had to apologize to my kids for the way I treated them.

It’s interesting, but the Bible really doesn’t have a large amount of verses on child training, yet some of these Christian leaders were able to write meaty books on the subject or speak for hours on the subject,  showing us how to parent our children the “biblical” way.  Yet how much of what they write or speak about really is in the Bible?  It’s really more of their interpretation of the Bible and the application of it.   I don’t know about you, but none of my kids were born with an instruction manual and coming from a dysfunctional family, I wanted all the help I could get.

I now get red flags when I see big names being promoted as being the expert on a particular issue.  Voddie Baucham is one such pastor whose name is in the celebrity pastor limelight.  I don’t quite understand why people elevate certain pastors to the level of celebrity status.  It’s high time we start removing people from pedestals and acknowledge that God has given us parents the same ability to discern that He has given them.  They were not given a direct line to God any more than we have been given.

From Mr. Baucham’s “about” page at his church website:

Voddie Baucham wears many hats.  He is a husband, father, pastor, author, professor, conference speaker and church planter.  He currently serves as Pastor of Preaching at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, TX.  He has served as an adjunct professor at the College of Biblical Studies in Houston, TX, and Union University in Jackson, TN.  He has also lectured at Southern Seminary.

Baucham is a big proponent of homeschooling and his 8 children are educated at home.  He and his church also promote family-integrated church model, meaning families worship together and there is no age segregation for Sunday school classes, youth groups, etc.

In this article, we read about his involvement in the Homeschool Movement.  The Homeschool Movement is a subculture within the homeschooling community which subscribes to specific teachings and ideologies:  Courtship, Patriarchy, Purity/Modesty teachings, Quiverfull, etc.  He believes the Homeschool Movement has the ability to turn the tide in recapturing this current generation for Christ.  Here’s one quote:  “The one hopeful sign I see is that the home-schooling movement is thriving. If there is an answer, I believe that is it.” Along with his support of the Homeschool Movement, Google searches will show that he is a strong supporter of Courtship and Patriarchy.  He also does not think adult daughters should leave the home to go to college.

I’m not going to discuss those specific issues, but only bring them up to give a little background information.

What I do want to focus on is his parenting ideas, namely, spanking.    Listen to his words. Line up his words with what the Bible says on parenting and see for yourself if this man is speaking biblically or his own agenda.  Does the Bible say anything about shy children?  Does the Bible say anything about how many spanks a child needs each day?  Where does that come from?

*  *  *TRIGGER ALERT:  SPANKING *  *  *

The following was transcribed from the above video:

Voddie Baucham

November 4, 2007

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT

SPANK OFTEN

Source
Source

Ephesians Chapter 6 Verses 1-4 I want to take you through three things, I want you to see three things, three phases in the training of our children. Phase number one is the discipline and correction phase. These are the first few years of life incredibly important. This is where we lay the foundation for everything else. The discipline and training phase. In this phase is where we are saying to our children “give me your attention, give me your attention.” “You need to pay more attention to ME than I do to YOU, give me your attention.” “The world doesn’t revolve around YOU, YOUR world revolves around ME.” That’s what we need to teach our children in those first few years of their life. Because they come here and just by nature of things they believe that the world revolves around them. And for the first few weeks that’s okay, but eventually we need to teach them that that’s over, that, “The world no longer revolves around YOU. YOUR world TODDLER, revolves around ME, around me.”

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child and the ROD of correction will drive it far from them. In other words God says your children desperately, desperately need to be spanked.

Amen, Hallelujah, Praise the Lord and spank your kids, okay? (laughter from audience)

And, they desperately need to be spanked and they need to be spanked often, they do. I meet people all the time ya’ know and they say, oh yeah, “There have only been maybe 4 or 5 times I’ve ever had to spank Junior.” “Really?” ‘That’s unfortunate, because unless you raised Jesus II, there were days when Junior needed to be spanked 5 times before breakfast.” If you only spanked your child 5 times, then that means almost every time they disobeyed you, you let it go.

Why do your toddlers throw fits? Because you’ve taught them that’s the way that they can control you. When instead you just need to have an all-day session where you just wear them out and they finally decide “you know what, things get worse when I do that.”

THE SELFISH SIN OF SHYNESS

Let me give you an example, a prime example. The so-called shy kid, who doesn’t shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, ya’ know and here I am, I’m the guest and I walk up and I’m saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid “Hey, ya’ know, say Good-morning to Dr. Baucham,” and the kid hides and runs behind the leg and here’s what’s supposed to happen. This is what we have agreed upon, silently in our culture. What’s supposed to happen is that, I’m supposed to look at their child and say, “Hey, that’s okay.” But I can’t do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is that number one, the child has sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it’s in direct disobedience. Secondly, the parent is in sin for not correcting it, and thirdly, I am in sin because I have just told a child it’s okay to disobey and dishonor their parent in direct violation of scripture. I can’t do that, I won’t do that. I’m gonna stand there until you make ’em do what you said.

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297 thoughts on “Voddie Baucham: Prescription for Spanking and the Shy Child”

  1. I wrote a book on this issue. I give it away freely as a ministerial service to help those looking for a deeper understanding of what the Scriptures teach concerning spanking/smacking.corporal punishment. Any interested party is welcomed to contact me and get my free ebook – info@biblechild.com. My book is a a very conservative book from a Biblical point of view, but it seeks to bring some much needed dept to this issue. .

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  2. Did not mean to post that twice. I had forgotten my WP PW and thought my first comment had not posted. Sorry about that. 🙂

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  3. Been reading your blog Samuel. Seems we are on the same page and I am enjoying reading a fresh perspective from someone with whom I agree on this topic!

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  4. Julie Anne, I am so glad you are keeping this information in front of people. I loved he exchange you had with Voddie on Twitter! HIs arrogance is astounding. Of course he cannot be challenged because HE s the arbiter of truth. Worst of all, he is always accusing people of misunderstanding and misinterpreting and misrepresenting what he says. For crying out loud, the man is a paid communicator. If there are so many dummies who don’t get what he is saying, ask yourself who is to blame! He should own up to what he has clearly stated (you and I both are very certain to use direct quotes and provide links.). You watch, the next thing that will happen is that that video will disappear just like the one where he said that men need the attention of younger women so God gave them daughters. He even expunged both his original statement and the even worse explanation from his website that time!

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  5. Thy Rod and Thy Staff They Comfort Me:
    Christians and the Spanking Controversy
    A free ebook by Samuel Martin – Write: info@biblechild.com

    There are few Biblical subjects where more misunderstanding exists among Christians and Child Rights advocates today than that of spanking children. This book seeks to increase the level of understanding about this issue. It shows that:
    ü Fact: The Bible does not teach that spanking a child will save him from Hell
    ü Fact: The Bible does not teach that spanking a child should bring tears
    ü Fact: In Bible times, the texts concerning spanking children found in Proverbs were not applied to young children under the age of about 10 years!
    ü Fact: Some of the most respected Christian theologians of our time including the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Dr. Karl Barth and Rev. Dwight Moody rejected spanking children
    ü Fact: The main Christian advocates for spanking children now are not usually trained Christian theologians teaching in universities, but most often are conservative fundamentalist Christian pastors, Christian politicians, Christian psychologists, lay church members and Christian school leaders
    ü Fact: Well meaning Christian advocates of spanking children have developed doctrines surrounding what they believe the Bible teaches about spanking children which are not found in the Bible at all
    ü Fact: Well meaning Children’s Rights activists, who are not trained Bible scholars, have entered this debate attacking the Bible with disastrous results

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  6. Someone asked about Ezzo.. I didn’t see a reply. Ezzo’s children have cut off all communication with their parents. They don’t see their grandchildren. They’ve been excommunicated publicly from 3 churches and now have a for profit organization still selling the same message.
    You know a tree by it’s fruit.
    http://ezzo.info/

    I get the impression that in our country among the Christian community the truth is spreading and light is shining in the darkness and the powers of this dark world aren’t going down without a fight.

    Above all we need to pray for Voddie and his followers. Our battle isn’t against flesh and blood, it’s against but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil.

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  7. JA,
    When I mentioned the psychobabble, I was hinting at going after something that is real rather than crusading against something V.B. wasn’t teaching, as is being alleged.
    So as Christians, is our Biblical call to help our children grow up with great self-esteem, or something else like teaching them the great doctrines of God in ways they can understand and instituting in our homes the God ordained relationships within the family structure, with all the ‘rules’ that apply to that structure? After all, rules a child might not like will hurt their self-esteem. (Self-esteem theory is the previously mentioned psychobabble)

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  8. Sometimes people of a particularly conservative evangelical bent use what amount to code words. Let me suggest a couple of generally applicable translations.

    Biblical: An adjective applied to elevate any given opinion to the status of infallibility, as though it were Scripture itself. Is useful for inoculating the said opinion from criticism, for cutting off discussion, and for discounting any attempt to subject the opinion to an objective testing against actual Scripture. Generally used in an attempt to force one’s personal opinions on others.

    Positive self-esteem: A condition which invariably masks a child’s understanding of the utter contempt with which God views the child in the child’s unregenerate, fallen condition; a condition of such grave concern as to necessitate the withholding of all love, the experience of which must inevitably lead to a child’s infection with the said unalterably damning condition of positive self-esteem.

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  9. I get the impression that in our country among the Christian community the truth is spreading and light is shining in the darkness and the powers of this dark world aren’t going down without a fight.

    But “the powers of this dark world” have learned the value of a coat of Christianese camouflage paint.

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  10. Gary,

    I believe you have become completely irrelevant to intelligent discussion, as far as i’m concerned. Now you are telling me what I really mean, which makes you look really foolish, at least to the moderately intelligent. Good day, Sir.

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  11. Born4Battle: It’s okay to discuss content, it is not okay to get personal in the debate. I believe the line was crossed in your last comment to Gary or a little close for my comfort.

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  12. With the discussion on spanking and discipline, I definitely changed my own views on spanking. I do not throw it out, but believe it should be rare and only in cases of direct rebellion towards the parent. Also, some kids benefit from it where some will not- we need to know our own kids; know their bent.
    I know just recently with my 19 year old daughter (who is very stubborn and no disciplinary action worked for her except logic) I had to come to the end of myself. The Holy Spirit convicted me to tell her that I trust her in making the right decisions about her life and relationship with God. This was a release for her, but also for me as well. This I believe set up a relationship that will be solid between me and her.
    I think communication and reasoning/logic goes a long way, especially with older children. We as parents will try to fight this, because we inwardly as humans will try to control. This is based on insecurity- the more we are insecure as parents, the more we will use methods that actually will harm then do good.
    I think Voddie further perpetrates this view of control, in my humble opinion.

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  13. Previously I commented on a debating tactic whereby an attempt is made to shut down discussion by accusing somebody of taking Scripture or a quote or whatever out of context. Another debating tactic seems to be the judicious application of condescension, defined as follows:

    Condescension: An attitude and tone of moral and intellectual superiority adopted when announcing that one does not deign particular persons, questions, points or positions as being worthy of serious consideration, or even of receiving the courtesy of a response or answer. May be coupled with an actual insulting of the other person’s intelligence. Useful in avoiding discussions in which one’s own position is unlikely to prevail.

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  14. I think some of the comments about control are important. Corporal punishment/spanking/smacking fits into a matrix of control that religious leaders can excercise. Having such influence over things like how you raise your kids, issues of authority, church government, tithing, who you marry, how you go about courting, these issues are fundamental to social organization.

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  15. My wife and I have 8 children. We wanted Christ-loving, obedient children. When the first few kids were young, we were taught to spank to drive out the foolishness. So, for the first 4, we followed this kind of parenting advice (along with others’ like Tomczak, Phillips, etc.) and it did not produce the fruit those teachers promised. For our youngest 4 children, we took a different grace-filled, less spanking approach, and they are much more in love with the Lord, and are showing much more fruit than the older group. Also, these teachers of “spank all day” approach themselves have wayward children. Do not listen to this garbage teaching, and listen to the Holy Spirit. Read your Bible, and love your kids. Don’t make the same mistakes we made, for the sake of your children.

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  16. Pat –

    Thank you for sharing your personal experience.

    You bring up a really good point.

    Someone mentioned Ezzo’s kids/grandchildren as being estranged. It would be very interesting to take a look at those authors on parenting or church leaders who taught parenting courses to see what kind of relationship they currently have with their adult children.

    We definitely know there is something amiss in Tomczak’s family in light of the SGM lawsuit. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

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  17. “Well, why NOT hide??? This guy Baucham wants this kid spanked every day…

    Seems like this kid who hides from Baucham
    is smarter, has more desernment, then his parents. 😉 😉 😉

    If the parents were smart, had “Biblical” discernment,
    they’d be hiding from Baucham also. 🙂 ”

    Yep, and an Amen to that!

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  18. I couldn’t possibly agree with V.B. any more. He is right on the money. Don’t that the Bible get in the way of your theology.

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  19. “I’m gonna stand there until you make ‘em do what you said.”

    First: so what if the parent doesn’t comply? Or they leave? Is Voddie going to chase them down? If he doesn’t have teeth behind this, it’s an empty threat and/or just bluster. Also, a grown man refusing to move until a person does what he wants, sounds remarkably like…a toddler. How ironic.

    Second: has anybody ever seen Voddie Baucham? His father was an NFL player. He’s gigantic.Huge 6′ tall black guy. Picture now, said huge 6′ tall black guy standing in front of a 2.5′ tall wiry toddler. You see immediately the reason why Voddie may have encountered so many “shy” children. Now picture Voddie in the room with a 20′ tall giant. How does he react to a demand by another giant to say good morning?

    Note: it doesn’t take this great of a height/size difference to get some people tongue-tied. I am 5’3″ and I once had to speak to a 6’11” brawny Native American guy and let me tell you, the words just wouldn’t come. At the time I was 20, with a (more or less) fully developed brain – not 2yo with a brain that’s just started developing. How anyone could call this sin is beyond me.

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  20. Also, per the spanking all day thing, my ex-pastor once spanked his daughter 17 times in one night. And if I’m not mistaken, all-day spanking regimens were how some of the Pearl-method victims died.

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  21. One more thought. Per the debate on what Voddie meant by “wear them out” – as someone who is not from the South and thus never hears this expression, coming directly on the heels of a paragraph about spanking Junior five times before breakfast, I don’t think it would be unreasonable for someone not “up” on the lingo to conclude that he was referring to a lot of spankings over the course of a day. I agree with whoever it was above that this was unwise placement if he meant something other than marathon spanking.

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  22. They sinned for not shaking hands at church? For being shy? I could hardly listen to this. And this is how children don’t get looked on as little human beings. This is why sexual assault occurs. If you can spank a child often, you can abuse them in other ways often too. This needs to stop now.

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  23. Pat – Thanks for that beautiful testimony. I would be very interested to hear from your wife (or any other mom who reads this) if she intuitively felt wrong (meaning here “women’s intuition”) about spanking as a mother despite all the advice she (and you) received to spank. Anecdotal feedback I have received from several dozen mothers tells me that mothers intuitively or instinctually know that spanking their children is fundamentally wrong, but they are told often to ignore “sinful” instincts and ignore those still small voices inside that let us know something is fundamentally wrong.

    Here is a link to a small survey I did. The results of more than 100 mothers who took it said that over 70% intuitively felt corporal punishment/spanking/smacking was wrong, but they did it against their own motherly instincts. http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2012/07/womens-intuition-did-you-feel.html

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  24. Hester – Thanks for this comment – “Second: has anybody ever seen Voddie Baucham? His father was an NFL player. He’s gigantic.Huge 6′ tall black guy. Picture now, said huge 6′ tall black guy standing in front of a 2.5′ tall wiry toddler. You see immediately the reason why Voddie may have encountered so many “shy” children. Now picture Voddie in the room with a 20′ tall giant. How does he react to a demand by another giant to say good morning?”

    Beware of sports figures, especially those involved in violent sports (which football certainly is), who cross over and become religious leaders.

    I remember a few years ago in California there was a man named Ralph Drollinger who was a member of John Wooden’s UCLA basketball team. Ralph began to do Bible studies with California politicians and his writings in favor of corporal punishment are basically the same aggressive tone as Baucham. Ralph also is six foot nine! A slightly intimidating figure for small children and their parents. So sad because John Wooden was a simple, gentle mild mannered man who never ever raised his voice, swore or was tough in a physical sense.

    Christianity is not a team sport lead by a male coach that leads by screaming, intimdation and violence. These people often take the “all lion, no lamb” approach. Beware!

    Final comment: I will never watch another NFL football game because it is pure violence, which people love the spectacle of. That is a whole other post. Also the fruit of aggressive NFL sports is 1,000s of older men suffering horrifying health problems and other illnesses like dimensia. RIP Alex Karras.

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  25. Samuel – She did always feel that maybe we were over doing it as it wasn’t producing fruit in their younger years. We always trusted our leaders and those “that have gone before us” more than ourselves. We didn’t give up spanking in our younger children, as we felt the Bible did instruct parents to use it as a tool. But we stopped doing the marathon “breaking their will” sessions. We would spank on a rare occasion. Life in the house became so much more peaceful. We have had to go to our, now adult, children, and ask their forgiveness and ask them to not follow in our footsteps with their children. We always said we couldn’t possibly write a book on how to raise children, but we could write a book on how NOT to raise children.

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  26. Pat – Thanks so much for sharing. Your testimony is an important one. This is the thing. We trust our religious leaders to a fault because this is the cultural and religious environment that is cultivated in church. I really like some of the things that people like @modernreject (and many others) are doing with the organic church, because it empowers the individual to find his or her place in the body of Christ, but it allows Christ to remain the Head of the Body, which is His designated role.

    Church leaders often assume the role of being the “head” and taking the place of Christ in telling people what to do, how to do it, when to do it, with whom you do it with, and why you do it. They also exhibit massive control on social issues: marriage, courting, sex, health, death, financial issues, education, etc. and male religious leaders tell women how to think, act, feel, be and to deny their own God given instincts as sinful, corrupted, and evil. The solution, of course, is always. Listen to me. Do what I tell you and God will be pleased with you.

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  27. Samuel,

    You speak of “a matrix of control that religious leaders can exercise” in such matters as “how you raise your kids, issues of authority, church government, tithing, who you marry, how you go about courting.” Then, most interestingly to me, you observe that “these issues are fundamental to social organization.”

    While topics vary, this blog primarily addresses issues of spiritual abuse. I expect it would be safe to say that the great majority of spiritual abuse described here flows from the exercise of claimed authority–claimed authority that is very much wrapped up in any given abuser’s vision of social organization. Of course, the abuser is usually at the very top of the particular social organization’s authority structure. It doesn’t matter whether the social organization in question is a “church” congregation, a religious school, the family or whatever.

    You may have noticed that I related spiritual abuse to the “exercise” of claimed authority and not to the “abuse” of claimed authority. You will also notice that I keep putting the word “claimed” in front of the word “authority.”

    This is because I have come to the conclusion that ALL relationships between Christians, no matter what the context, are intended to be based on love rather than on authority. While there may be necessary exceptions, I have also come to the conclusion that Christians should avoid authority-based relationships with other Christians. This is a difficult concept. It means that the great majority of “church” organizations are disqualified. Still, Jesus taught that His disciples were not to lord it over others. His new commandment is that we love one another.

    On the other hand, I submit that if “church” leaders were denied access to the coercive application of claimed authority, the problem of spiritual abuse would be much diminished.

    I would be quite interested in any thoughts you may have on these matters.

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  28. Just for the record, Voddie Baucham’s church is just about a 30 minute drive from my house (which is considered a short drive in the Houston area). I’ve seen him talk at Houston First Baptist a coupe of times, and he is really big. I’m 6’2″ and about 220 lbs., and he makes me look malnourished. Can’t imagine how big he would seem from a little kid’s perspective. Might be worth taking a drive and visiting services at his church one day soon.

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  29. Gary – I fully agree with you. I’d like to talk more about this and I will answer you in more detail, but right now it is 7:30am here in Jerusalem and I have to get the day off and running 🙂

    I believe that the Bible teaches as you have said that love is the dominating factor in Christian relationships and there is only one authority in the body of Christ, and that is Christ Himself and he does not act like a Roman emperor.

    You are also correct that denying access to the power that church leaders hold is a simple path to reduced levels of spiritual abuse.

    That is also why I linked to what Nicole Cotrell and many others are doing with their organic churches.

    I can prove that the early Church functioned with some absolute principles of democracy, which is not surprising considering that Paul was called to head West from the Near East in his evangelistic approach. Much of this you have touched on at the top level, but we have practical examples in the New Testament in fact, which is sadly hidden in translation errors which shows the power that the laity had in the early period.

    A precise formula in fact exists for establishing church elders (who are once again not elected to that post to be dictators, but servants) in all areas and these procedures were established by the early Church to centralize Christ’s servant oriented governance in His communities and the power was excercised by the laity.

    I need to write up some of this material on my blog. Democracy is an important element of early Christianity which is often not appreciated as it should be.

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  30. I was extremely shy as a child. I wasn’t acting out of rebellion but out of fear. There was a lot of fear in our home. Fear that they would lose me to death like they had lost my older brother (to a medical condition) when he was small. I’m grateful my parents chose a different path to address my shyness rather than to spank (beat) me for my “sinfulness”.

    Does the Christian community – such as this pastor and his followers – have any idea how absurd they make Christianity for the non-believer? I wouldn’t choose to follow his god either.

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  31. If people could go back 2,000 and visit the Church in Corinth they would be so surprised. Dr. Kenneth Bailey has a great book called “Paul through Mediterranean Eyes. I urge everyone to read it. It is life changing.

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  32. Earlier today I sent Dr. Baucham an e-mail giving him my address and also, once again, inviting him to clarify his words. I just read a very nice e-mail from him – – actually, I’m kind of blown away with the heart of the e-mail.

    I wasn’t clear if he was okay with me quoting any of it, so I’ve sent him a quick e-mail asking him if I may do so. I’ll keep you posted.

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  33. Ok, here’s another Twitter conversation between Dr. Baucham and Samuel that wasn’t as pretty:

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  34. @ Samuel:

    Baucham apparently never knew his father so I can’t speak to his involvement in sports (though TX is certainly football country!). He grew up in gangland Los Angeles with a single mother, and seems to have swung all the way to the other extreme on family issues after converting.

    …Although actually, come to think of it he did say he came to Christ in a locker room so maybe he was into sports as a child/youth.

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  35. @ Julie Anne:

    Yeah, so MLK Jr. had some major theological/personal problems. Whatever. There are plenty of other people who don’t spank, or spank far less frequently than Voddie does, for theological reasons. I know of Puritans who expressed distress 400y ago about people who applied the rod too frequently/harshly.

    What I’m more curious about is why a black man hangs out with people whose children get their picture taken in front of a monument to the founder of the KKK.

    http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/6010#.UcLYZaU73L-

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  36. With race being mentioned more than once, I feel it is appropriate to add some information about social class, race, and the use of corporal punishment and an insight into why some people spank and others don’t.

    If you are poor and under-educated, you will most likely end up working in a job in which you obey a supervisor and that obedience is the quality that is most valued. Parents demand obedience and beat the will out of their kids seemingly doing them a favor by training them to be good obedient workers. Upper-middle class parents, on the other hand, expect their children to be well-educated and work either in a supervisory position or as professionals that are valued for their expertease in their given field. Being able to solve problems and think creatively and critically are valued. These parents reason with their children, know age-appropriate approaches to discipline, and use time-outs (in the case of someone very dear to me, time sitting on the “Thinking step.” ) MLK JR likely knew the ass whooping and banter within the African American community is there because of the shameful history of slavery and generational discrimination that resulted in people of color being denied a proper education and being forced to work in menial degrading jobs.

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  37. Interesting. In the tweet posted above, Baucham engages in character assignation to try to discredit Dr. Kings views on the appropriateness of physical violence against children. Does anybody know, am I correct in thinking white bigots have also engaged in this same kind of character assassination in an attempt to discredit Dr. King’s transformative contributions in the area of civil rights? Has Baucham joined the likes of the KKK in trying to tear down a man who has joined the company of men like Lincoln and Wilberforce?

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  38. I took it to mean that MLK was so busy that he left the child raising to the mother. Tho I sense that he doesn’t like MLK. But I may not be educated enough to judge him or other people.

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  39. Darrell,

    I can see the point you are making. I compliment you for assuming the best of Baucham and his motives. Still, if Baucham’s intention was to communicate the idea that Dr. King was too busy to discipline his children, the point could have been made in a manner that did not refer to supposed marital infidelity, doctrinal heresy and academic fraud. I’m sure there was much else of a positive nature keeping Dr. King busy.

    I’m thinking we may need to add a new definition to our glossary of debating tactics. Here goes:

    Verbal Subterfuge: The art of manipulatively communicating a morally reprehensible idea or impression to a target audience, but in a manner that allows the speaker or writer to claim that something else of a morally neutral, or even laudable, nature was intended. Sometimes referred to as plausible deniability. Note the etymological similarity between “subterfuge” and “subtle,” as in “the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made.” Gen. 3:1, ASV 1901.

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  40. Gary W. That last part went over my 12th grade education head, so I will have to read it a few times, but in general I will agree. He could have just said he was to busy, but I don’t know that to be true. But as I stated I noticed he didn’t care for him a whole lot.

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  41. Darrell,

    “Maybe he was busy pursuing his many mistresses, denying deity of Christ/resurrection, or plagiarizing his dissertation”

    Where in the tweet did you take it to mean he was “so busy he left the child raising to the mother?”
    I read MLK was busy sinning. Who is judging? That tweet by Voddie was a harsh critique, just sayin…

    Like

  42. Looks like you two already resolved my question ( :
    Darrell, I have to use my dictionary a lot, so many new words & definitions, whew!

    Like

  43. Gail I wasn’t defending either Vodie or MLK. It is possible he was busy sinning (which I don’t know to be true) or most likely busy about the movement he was heading along w his ministry. I admit I don’t know if his wife had to the child raising mostly on her own or not.

    Please clarify what u meant about judging.

    Like

  44. Gary W

    Just love your – “new definition to our glossary of debating tactics” 😉 😉

    Wanted you to know…
    I’ve been enjoying, and appreciating, your thoughts and reasonings.

    Especially your writting about, and giving definitions, applicable translations, to…
    Questionable “debating tactics” – “ploys” – “code words”
    “debating tactic whereby an attempt is made to shut down discussion”

    I’ve experienced these debating tactics in the past – And NOW have some definitions worthy of a review. Thanks…

    So, I’m copying them for future reference – and use…
    If they are not copywrited or trademarked. 😉

    ————

    “The old taking-it-out-of-context ploy.”

    I see from your Twitter exchange that Bauchman is using the old taking-it-out-of-context ploy. In my experience, pastors do this to avoid answering legitimate points of concern. Its a way of putting you down (by implying your knowledge is deficient), while at the same time shutting you down (by refusing to actually respond to your point). What pastors don’t realize is that, when they use this ploy, it is just evidence that they don’t want to deal with the fact that they are either ignorant or in error.

    “Biblical”

    Biblical: An adjective applied to elevate any given opinion to the status of infallibility, as though it were Scripture itself. Is useful for inoculating the said opinion from criticism, for cutting off discussion, and for discounting any attempt to subject the opinion to an objective testing against actual Scripture. Generally used in an attempt to force one’s personal opinions on others.

    “Positive self-esteem”

    Positive self-esteem: A condition which invariably masks a child’s understanding of the utter contempt with which God views the child in the child’s unregenerate, fallen condition; a condition of such grave concern as to necessitate the withholding of all love, the experience of which must inevitably lead to a child’s infection with the said unalterably damning condition of positive self-esteem.

    “Condescension”

    Condescension: An attitude and tone of moral and intellectual superiority adopted when announcing that one does not deign particular persons, questions, points or positions as being worthy of serious consideration, or even of receiving the courtesy of a response or answer. May be coupled with an actual insulting of the other person’s intelligence. Useful in avoiding discussions in which one’s own position is unlikely to prevail.

    “Verbal Subterfuge”

    Verbal Subterfuge: The art of manipulatively communicating a morally reprehensible idea or impression to a target audience, but in a manner that allows the speaker or writer to claim that something else of a morally neutral, or even laudable, nature was intended. Sometimes referred to as plausible deniability. Note the etymological similarity between “subterfuge” and “subtle,” as in “the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made.” Gen. 3:1, ASV 1901.

    ———–

    Yes – I see a new book…

    “The Glossary of Debating Tactics”
    “Used by The Spiritually Abusive Religious System”

    Like

  45. Still, if Baucham’s intention was to communicate the idea that Dr. King was too busy to discipline his children, the point could have been made in a manner that did not refer to supposed marital infidelity, doctrinal heresy and academic fraud. I’m sure there was much else of a positive nature keeping Dr. King busy.

    So Voddie Baucham would have co-signed on J Edgar Hoover’s attempt to blackmail MLK into committing suicide?

    Like

  46. Amos, I was thinking the same thing last night – – that we were getting a free debate class by reading Gary W.’s comments. Thanks for compiling that list. It might be beneficial to post this permanently somewhere and we can add to it and maybe also include examples (real or fictitious).

    Gary W. – these definitions have been most helpful.

    Like

  47. Hester – I would appreciate the links to the Puritan materials you referenced.

    As for imperfections we all have, I think the following from Dear Abby is quite relevant

    “Recently I read about a mainline Christian church in the United States who advertised for a new minister to fill the vacancy left by their former pastor who was retiring. They stated that only those with impeccable qualifications and credentials need apply. The board for selecting the minister was swamped by individuals applying for the job.

    They had so many to choose from that the committee assigned to select the new minister began to be very “picky” and “demanding” with each candidate. They came to expect such “perfection” that a stalemate among the committee was reached over selecting anyone.

    At this juncture, one of the board members said he had a further application which had just come to his attention and that the board should consider it. The application letter went something like this:

    “Gentlemen: Understanding that your pulpit is vacant, I should like to apply for the position. I have many qualifications. I’ve been a preacher with much success and also have had some success as a writer. Some say I am a good organizer. I’ve been a leader most places I have been.

    “I’m over 50 years of age. I have never preached in one place for more than three years. In some places I have left town after my work caused riots and disturbances. I must admit I have been in jail seven times, but not because of any real wrongdoing.

    “My health is not too good, though I still get a great deal done.
    The churches I have preached in have been small, though located in several large cities.

    “I’ve not gotten along well with religious leaders in towns where I have preached. In fact, some have threatened me and even attacked me physically. I am not too good at keeping records. I have been known to forget whom I have baptized. And I have to admit that most people feel that I am not a good speaker.

    “However, if you can use me, I shall do my best for you.”

    The board member who read the letter looked at the committee. “Well, what does the board think? Shall we call him?”

    The board members were aghast. Call an unhealthy, trouble-making, absent-minded exjailbird who even admits he can’t speak well? Was the board member crazy? Who was it that sent in that application? Who had the colossal nerve?

    The board member eyed them all keenly before he answered: “It’s signed, ‘The Apostle Paul.”‘ (taken from Dear Abby)

    Liked by 1 person

  48. @ Samuel:

    It isn’t online, but here’s the relevant excerpt from Edmund Morgan’s The Puritan Family, ch. 4 “The Education of a Saint.” Morgan is one of the most respected Puritan scholars of the 20th century, along w/Perry Miller, so this isn’t just some random goofball. The whole book is well worth reading. Emphasis below is mine.

    “Every parent had to decide for himself the proper method of disciplining his children. It has sometimes been assumed that the birch rod constituted the Puritans’ only method of correction. It can hardly be doubted that many resorted to it, and it is safe to assume that some parents were excessively severe. Cotton Mather’s epigram, ‘Better whipt, than Damn’d,’ expressed a large part of Puritan educational philosophy; and John Eliot’s praise of chastisement even approached eloquence: ‘The gentle rod of the mother, is a very gentle thing, it will break neither bone nor skin: yet by the blessing of God with it, and upon the wise application of it: it would break the bond that bindeth up corruption in the heart.’ Nevertheless, there is no proof that seventeenth-century parents employed the rod more freely than twentieth-century parents. When Sewall recorded the occasions of punishing his children, the offenses were much the same as those which still overtax parental patience. On Sept. 15, 1688, he ‘corrected’ his son Sam for playing hookey and lying about it, ‘saying he had been at the Writing School, when he had not.’ On Nov. 6, 1692, he corrected Joseph, the future minister of the Old South Church, for equally grave misbehavior. Joseph had thrown ‘a knop of Brass and hit his Sister Betty on the forhead so as to make it bleed and swell; upon which, and for his playing at Prayer-time, and eating when Return Thanks, I whipd him pretty smartly.’ A modern parent would probably not be considered unduly severe for correcting his child ‘pretty smartly’ under the same circumstances. A modern parent, however, would not be likely to make the reflection that Sewall made upon this occasion: ‘When I first went in (call’d by his Grandmother) he sought to shadow and hide himself from me, behind the head of the Cradle: which gave me the sorrowful remembrance of Adam’s carriage.’

    Sewall, like other Puritans, saw all children as creatures of sin, but he did not therefore conclude that a free application of the rod was the way to bring them to righteousness. In fact, if he listened to his religious adivsers, he employed bodily punishment only as a last resort; for the ministers who wrote and spoke on the subject almost always counseled their readers and listeners to win children to holiness by kindness rather than try to force them to it by severity. The aim of Puritan education was vastly different from that of modern ‘progressive’ education, but granted the difference in end, the Puritan methods of discipline, as expounded by the ministers, sound strikingly modern. The Reverend Richard Mather, who had been subjected to a particularly harsh teacher during his boyhood in England, is said to have exclaimed: ‘O that all school-masters would learn wisdom, moderation, and equity towards their scholars! and seek rather to win the hearts of children by righteous loving and courteous usage, than to alienate their minds by partiality and undue severity.’ According to his grandson, Cotton Mather, Richard put his own educational principles into practice. Becoming a schoolmaster himself at the age of fifteen, he ‘carried it with such wisdom, kindness, and grave reservation, as to be loved and feared by his young folks, much above the most that ever used the ferula.’ If Cotton Mather is to be trusted, Grandfather Richard was no exception among Puritan schoolmasters. In a funeral service for Ezekiel Cheever, who kept the Boston grammar school for seventy years, Cotton expressed his assurance that the schoolmasters of New England ‘do watch against the Anger which is fierce, and the Wrath which is cruel; and that they use not Instruments of Cruelty in their Habitations.’ As a reminder of their duty, he pictured Cheever as speaking to them from on high:

    ‘Tutors, Be strict; But yet be Gentle too:
    Don’t by fierce Cruelties fair Hopes undo.
    Dream not, that they who are to Learning slow,
    Will mend by Arguments in Ferio.
    Who keeps the Golden Fleece, Oh, let him not
    A Dragon be, tho’ he Three Tongues have got.
    Why can you not to Learning find the way,
    But thro’ the Province of Severia?
    Twas Moderatus, who taught Origen;
    A Youth which prov’d one of the Best of men.
    The Lads with Honour first, and Reason Rule;
    Blowes are but for the Refractory Fool.’

    In his own family Cotton Mather endeavored to follow the principles which he so evidently approved. Concerning his disciplinary methods he wrote in his diary:

    ‘The first Chastisement, which I inflict for an ordinary Fault, is, to lett the Child see and hear in me an Astonishment, and hardly able to beleeve that the Child could do so base a Thing, but beleeving that they will never do it again. I would never come, to give a child a Blow; except in Case of Obstinacy: or some gross Enormity. To be chased for a while out of my Presence, I would make to be look’d upon, as the sorest Punishment in the Family. … The slavish way of Education, carried on with raving and kicking and scourging (in Schools as well as Families,) tis abominable; and a dreadful judgment of God upon the World.’

    Thomas Cobbett had the same opinion of the ‘slavish way of education.’ He advised parents to make commands to their children in ‘pathetical’ terms, ‘namely as in the most moving expressions, which may help on affectionate attendance and observance thereof.’ These statements provide the gloss for Mather’s epigram on the value of whipping. Though it was better to be whipped than damned, it was still better to be persuaded than whipped. In reading the Puritan praises of the rod, it is necessary to remember that they regarded it as a last resort. They saved their highest approval for a much more intelligent method of discipline, a method which depended for its efficacy upon the development of a special attitude in the child and upon a thorough understanding by the parent of each child’s peculiar personality.”

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  49. I’m so glad to see Samuel Martin in on this discussion. I got his book about a year ago and have been rethinking the whole spanking issue ever since. Now that I have a grandbaby I have an added incentive to learn all I can. While homeschooling back a few years, I was saturated with the type of discipline discussed here (Ezzo (first time obedience), Pearl, etc.). Spanking was always touted as “the Biblical Way” to discipline. His book put an end for me to that “truth”.

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  50. Monique: Thanks for your comment. In the homeschooling arena, the only way to “biblically” discipline included spanking and if you didn’t spank, the message that I got was that we would be giving our kids a direct ticket to hell. They may not have used those exact words, but that was an underlying message that you simply could not raise children biblically without spanking them.

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  51. I hear a Sonny & Cher song in the background……”And the Bash Goes On”…or was that BEAT goes on. Is there a difference? I have to admit though, ya’ll are equal opportunity ‘bashers’. You hit just about everyone, with or without actual facts to back yourselves up!

    Like

  52. B4B

    Was wondering…

    Are you “bashing” folks? – For “bashing” others?

    Or – For NOT “bashing” The correct way – Your Way?

    Liked by 1 person

  53. I don’t know, B4B – – 5 spanks before breakfast? How do you change that around to be anything other than 5 spanks before breakfast. He either said it or he didn’t. We have the audio. What more do you need?

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  54. I guess you missed the thing about ‘cultural context’. Oh wait…..you didn’t…..you chose to ignore it. My African American wife did not, and neither did a whole lot of folks in his congregation. Gonna bash them too, or do you think they are just too naive or stupid in their allegiance to their Pastor?

    Like

  55. Thanks to all for positive feed back on what I am now tentatively referring to as A Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits.

    Amos, and all: Feel free to copy, re-publish, add to, improve upon, etc. Even if I were inclined to retain intellectual property rights, I’m not sure how I would do that where I am choosing to comment anonymously.

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  56. Dear Monique – I was deeply moved and sincerely humbled being associated in any way with your comments. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I give to the LORD all glory for anything good that comes from my very inadequate hands. I would definitely like to link to your comments in the hope that in reading them someone might find in them the courage to reach out for a new direction. Let me know if that would be ok with you. Thanks so much once again and best wishes from Jerusalem.

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  57. B4B

    You say…
    “Just an observation, folks, based on having done a lot of reading here.”

    So, your “observation” entitles you to “bash” others?

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  58. This issue of cultural context is important. Pastor Baucham without question believes 100% that his approach to interpreting Scripture and his application of the Biblical texts is correct. He believes that he has captured the cultural context of Scripture and that clearly animates his teaching.

    Here is where I would differ with the good Pastor. His understanding of the cultural context of Scripture is so influenced by his surroundings and upbringing. Why don’t you do the good Pastor a favor and write a nice review of my ebook from his point of view because he will never read my book. Feel free to write: info@biblechild.com. By the way, if you don’t want to write me, feel free to write Julie Anne and I think she can send it to you as well. I am still working somewhat unsuccessfully to get my book posted on kindle or somewhere online so people can get it without writing to me.

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  59. In view of Born4Battle’s allegations of bashing and beating, I propose an addition to the Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits:

    Personification by Conflation: A ploy whereby a doctrinaire apologist indulges in a conflation of ideas with persons such that criticisms of objectionable ideas are responded to as though they were criticisms of the person advocating the objectionable ideas. Can be useful in achieving two objectives: 1) the apologist is able to paint the critic as having engaged in a morally reprehensible ad hominem attack on the person of the proponent or advocate of otherwise unsupportable ideas, and 2) the apologist is able to subtly suggest, however hypocritically, that the critic, as opposed to their criticism, is unworthy or bad. Is useful in deflecting attention from unsupportable ideas, while at the same time discounting and discrediting critics by (falsely) calling their moral character into question.

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  60. B4B

    You write…
    “I have to admit though, ya’ll are equal opportunity ‘bashers’. You hit just about everyone, with or without actual facts to back yourselves up!”

    “Ya’ll” and “everyone” sounds like an exaggeration.
    Doesn’t sound very accurate, very truthful, – does it?

    Gary W – I think “exaggeration” belongs in your…
    “A Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits.”

    And, B4B – calling folks “bashers” – Well, in debating there are different “fallacies.”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    “A fallacy is **incorrect argument** in logic and rhetoric
    resulting in a *lack of validity,* or more generally, a *lack of soundness.*

    Moral high ground fallacy…
    in which a person assumes a “holier-than-thou” attitude
    in an attempt to make himself look good to win an argument.

    Ad hominem…
    attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
    You seem to do this well when you say – “ya’ll are equal opportunity ‘bashers’.”

    Personal Attacks Fallacie…
    the evasion of the actual topic by directing the attack at your opponent.

    Poisoning the well…
    a type of ad hominem where adverse information about a target
    is presented with the intention of discrediting everything that the target person says.

    Abusive fallacy…
    a subtype of “ad hominem” when it turns into name-calling
    rather than arguing about the originally proposed argument.

    In simple terms – because you use “exaggeration” and “personal attacks”

    You have a – “*lack of validity,* or more generally, a *lack of soundness.*”

    Maybe you can be a little more specific… Without name calling or bashing…

    And show us “The Christian way” – The “Biblical” way.

    How would you “criticize,” the beliefs of someone like Voddie Baucham?

    Someone who thinks a child should be spanked five times before breakfast.

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  61. Gary W

    Personification by Conflation: A ploy…

    You said it much better than wikipedia … 😉

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  62. Thanks Julie Anne and Samuel for your input. Since reading and learning more about the key spanking Proverbs scriptures, I’ve changed my perspective in so many ways. I really never had the stomach for spanking but did it because it was “biblical”. I had to laugh at someone’s comment that they “failed” at Ezzo. I did too. I could never be as consistent as “Ezzonomics” required.

    One major way I’ve changed is that I no longer see my children as my “enemy” to conquer and control when seeing the need for discipline. Of course most are grown now, but I wish I had more of this perspective when they were young. They’re my brothers and sisters in Christ. I wish I had trusted my instincts more during those years. I’ve gone back and apologized and talked with the older ones and we’re all good now. I want them to know how much I love the people they are and are becoming. I give Jesus full credit for all the good outcomes in my kids in spite of me!

    I know there are gentle parenting resources out there. Could we post some of these as resources for parents and grandparents?

    Samuel, yes by all means you can link to my comments.
    Thanks again!

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  63. If Jesus came to clarify everything with His doctrine, the Gospel, He has the final say, and He says how horrific it will be for anyone who causes a child to sin. Physically striking another person to make them obey you will cause them to be angry, and anger leads to many sins. Look up all the ways “rod” is used in the Bible. Only in Proverbs do we see it being used in an abusive way, and again, Jesus clarifies everything, and He never, ever would strike a person, and He even rebuked Peter for hurting a soldier by cutting off His ear. There is no debate when we go to Him. I am a product of beatings, and I used the wooden spoon until I saw how unChristlike it was.

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  64. Julie Anne, I read your post on Baucham when it came out a few days ago. But I was so fuming and angry at the time that I didn’t post.

    A few things that come to my mind is the slagging of people who are shy and have a hard time looking people in the eye. What is so despicable is that Baucham attacks the most vulnerable of those, namely little children. I’ve been noticing this more and more in modern evangelicalism, where people who have quiet contemplative personalities are being attacked, either because they are not social (and hence not useful to them for gaining new converts), or they study too much (and thereby undermine the pastor and elders’ cherished authority). This trend largely started in the charismatic movement, but it has been moving move and more into mainstream evangelicalism.

    The attitude that Baucham expresses is based largely on fear, cowardice, and ignorance. Obviously, Baucham hasn’t heard of Asperger’s Syndrome, Autism, and Social Anxiety Disorder, conditions that are present in children either from birth or very early childhood. Then there are children who just merely shy and intelligent. Baucham doesn’t have a clue about these conditions, and they are not sinful and just normal variations of personality that appear in us as humans. These conditions will likely make a child not want to shake a stranger’s hand or look him in the eye. It seems as though Baucham wants all people to fit his “jock” stereotype for what the perfect child needs to be.

    Also, what is disturbing is that Baucham finds it irritable and insulting that a young child won’t want to shake his hand or look him in the eye. Does Baucham have such a strong ego and such a strong narcissistic sense of himself that he as a grown man cannot take a perceived insult from a young child and want the parents to exact retribution for him? This is truly scary and I would advise any parents to avoid this man. Also, notice how he calls himself “Doctor” at 2:45 in the video, yet he calls into question Martin Luther King’s doctorate. This man has SERIOUS pride issues and he needs to repent. King had more humility than Baucham, even though theologically I would agree more often with Baucham.

    Furthermore, I’ve been noticing the reduction in the quality of preachers that evangelicalism has been producing over the last generation. More and more, we less of the old classic servant country preacher, men such as Peter Lumpkins. We used to have more men in our pulpits who were intellectuals with humility, and smart intelligent men used to want to go to seminary and be trained for ministry. Now, we still have some of those types of men, but they are becoming rarer in the pulpit. Instead, we have charismatic personalities, jocks, men who like to be liked, motivational speakers, authoritarians, narcissists, and in some cases psychopaths. We have the likes of Mark Driscoll, Steven Furtick and Voddie Baucham. Where have all of the young humble intelligent men gone? Largely into studying Math, the Sciences, Medicine, Engineering, and Business. The seminaries are now left trying to train men who have personalities that are not qualified for the position of pastor.

    I have more to say on this in a subsequent post.

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  65. One major way I’ve changed is that I no longer see my children as my “enemy” to conquer and control when seeing the need for discipline.

    Monique, everybody, THAT is what happens when you reduce child rearing — or anything — to Power Struggle.

    Because in Power Struggle there are only two end states: My boot stamping on the Other’s face or the Other’s boot stamping on my face. Forever. And the only way to avoid the second is to make sure of the first. Because the Other will do the same.

    “A crown based on lies,
    You Win or you Die,
    Game of Thrones…”

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  66. Also, what is disturbing is that Baucham finds it irritable and insulting that a young child won’t want to shake his hand or look him in the eye. Does Baucham have such a strong ego and such a strong narcissistic sense of himself that he as a grown man cannot take a perceived insult from a young child and want the parents to exact retribution for him?

    Remember Mark Driscoll’s de facto definition of Manhood?
    “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”

    Also, notice how he calls himself “Doctor” at 2:45 in the video, yet he calls into question Martin Luther King’s doctorate.

    “Doctor” as in yet another Fundagelical Honorary Doctorate?

    Liked by 1 person

  67. Hi! I am a homeschool alumni, college graduate, and Christ-follower. I have been a blog-lurker for awhile, but wanted to post a comment, not necessarily to this article, but to the blog in general.

    I am reminded of the Scripture verses in James 3, that state:

    “Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

    But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.”

    Being someone who has been hurt by follow believers/churches in the past and have attended 4 churches over my lifetime, I understand the root of bitterness and also the entanglement of the reaches these roots can have over everything in one’s life.

    I want to better understand the purpose of this blog, the purpose of focusing on the negative things that human beings are all capable of. I wonder if all of us would be happier, less critical, and capable of forgiveness if we were reminded of the beauty of Christ’s bride, despite her many faults.

    Some people who read this blog might need to be reminded that there is good in the church and that there are positive movements in the church. The Holy Spirit is moving and working and our Savior will not abandon His work.

    I’d love to hear your thoughts.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. I am appalled. It seems this guy has one favorite tool in his parenting toolbox, a hammer. Not every child-raising issue is a nail.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. Hi Rebecca: Thanks for your comment. You asked what is the purpose of this blog. This particular blog evolved out of a blog in which I was describing my experience of being at a spiritually abusive church. When the media got hold of my story, I discovered very quickly that many people had gone through similar situations and many were so hurt that they no longer go to church or have any desire to go to church for many reasons.

    I love the verse you chose because a lot of us did not have that in our churches: “But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.”

    Some of us wrongly assumed that being a peacemaker meant to suck it up and keep quiet in our abusive churches. We missed signs, we may have followed blindly, we were led astray, we were hurt. Some of us are trying to make sense of that and put the pieces back together so that we won’t allow someone to use their position of authority in destructive ways.

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  70. Rebecca,

    Thank you very much for your comments and questions. I can speak only for myself, but I find that I have great difficulty remaining silent when I observe the strong oppressing the weak. I actually believe this character trait it is a part of who I was created to be. Jesus was not gentle with everybody. Neither was Paul. I very much Identify with Bonhoeffer when he said “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” It will not always be pretty.

    There is little I personally can do to stop the oppression of the weak by the strong. Occasionally this blog gives me the opportunity to join others in calling out evil for what it is.

    Your point about roots of bitterness is well taken. If I am bitter that tends to get projected in ways that are defiling. Even if I am saying and doing things that need to be said and done, bitterness can cause me to be saying and doing them in ways that are counterproductive. The bitterness just comes through. There is a constant challenge to forgive, which is the only remedy I know for bitterness.

    I probably differ with you on one point. When you speak of church, you appear to be referring, at least in part, to organizations we call church. My own conviction is that the church is simply those of us who follow Jesus. I believe that when we begin to do organized church as though it were an end in itself, great mischief is done. For example, when I think of all the money I have given to organizations calling themselves church, and when I think of how that money got used, I feel swindled. I must practice forgiveness lest a root of bitterness spring up defiling many.

    So, there are my personal answers to at least some of the matters you raise in your post. I hope my answers at least help you to understand. I do not claim to have gotten it all right.

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  71. I am appalled. It seems this guy has one favorite tool in his parenting toolbox, a hammer. Not every child-raising issue is a nail.

    Remember the Army corollary to that:
    “If at first you don’t succeed, USE A BIGGER HAMMER.”

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Born4Battle

    I guess you missed the thing about ‘cultural context’. Oh wait…..you didn’t…..you chose to ignore it. My African American wife did not, and neither did a whole lot of folks in his congregation. Gonna bash them too, or do you think they are just too naive or stupid in their allegiance to their Pastor?

    Born4Battle: For your info, Voddie is well aware of this thread. He’s seen it. I’ve asked him to clarify specifically the 5 spanks before breakfast and the “wear out” issue a number of times on Twitter and privately. I have now had 3 lengthy e-mails from him and he has not yet given me permission to publish his explanations, so my hands are tied. The ball is in his court. So in absence of clarification, I can only make the reasonable conclusion that he was speaking to a mixed audience in which not all would completely understand that his use of “wear out” and “5 spanks before breakfast” means something other than those words say.

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  73. Amos,

    Your suggestion that “exaggeration” be added to the Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits is noted. I’ve also been giving some thought to the apparent motive behind the particular exaggeration you are referencing. The allegation that we “hit just about everyone” seems to be no more than a simple attempt to enlarge the magnitude of the alleged transgressions. Beyond that, the reference to “ya’ll,” as in all of us, seems to be some kind of an attempt to communicate guilt by (exaggerated) association. I’m not saying it’s going on in this particular instance, but any time guilt by association is used, there may also be an element of soft (or sometimes even hard) bigotry in play, as in “I’m not bad like all THOSE people.”

    In the present instance the use of exaggeration appears to be a tactical exercise deployed in pursuit of the overarching strategic goal of distracting attention from the real issue, which is whether it is appropriate to regularly spank a child 5 times a day before breakfast and, apparently, whether it is appropriate to spank a child all day long for the purpose of wearing them down. What do you think? Are you seeing anything else? Can you think of other examples where exaggeration has been used as a rhetorical gambit or debating ploy? While I think I see how the exaggeration gambit was deployed in this particular instance, I don’t seem to have a very good sense how it tends to be used overall. Maybe it is all somehow related to Adolph Hitler’s use of the Big Lie.

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  74. Samuel,

    Thank you for the invitation to appear on your blog. Even before receiving your invitation I had bookmarked your blog for future reference. If my appearances are somewhere between limited and none, it will not be due to lack of interest. It will have to do with lack of time and, though I’m loathe to admit it, lack of anything to add to your topics.

    As to ways of making your book publicly available, I’m thinking you might be able to do it with an Evernote account (evernote.com). You could also do it through http://www.cubby.com. Each service has a free level of service. Each service permits single files to be linked for read (and, I presume, download) only public access. What I don’t know is if these services are available internationally. If not, perhaps you could get somebody in the States to help.

    It looks like Dropbox also allows for publication of links to single documents. I’m supposing, but do not know, that the same may be true for Google Drive, Microsoft Skydrive, Amazon Cloud Drive, and who knows what all else. I don’t know about Amazon, but I believe that Dropbox, Google and Microsoft all provide a free level of service.

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  75. JA,

    I understand your position and have no idea what was contained in any correspondence he has had with you. I listen to his sermons on occasion, especially concerning the family-integrated church model. He makes some really good points concerning who has the PRIMARY responsibility for raising our children in the faith.

    In the above clip, which is taken out of it’s original context, apparently to decry ‘spanking’ is not a fair representation, BECAUSE it is not presented in its original larger context. which is about a particular period of child development in which boundaries need to be specifically established. The goal is for the child to stop whatever behavior is inappropriate. Our kids got their little hands thumped for touching what they were not to touch. Their Mom didn’t move all of the things they might inappropriately touch and break, she taught them not to touch them. Children are born naturally rebellious as part of our fallen natures. Their worlds ARE to revolve around their parent’s instead of themselves. That’s where the whole ‘self-esteem’ psychobabble gets it wrong. Kids aren’t born sweet and innocent. the Bible tells us otherwise.

    It is not right, in my view, to take this or any other short clip our of the original context, or fail to present it in its context, just to make a point in a personal crusade. I see it all the time.

    That is all I am saying. We as believers ought to be better than that, shouldn’t we?

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  76. B4B, your example provides the difference in approach that makes us different because I see human nature as having a sort of duality to it. We have all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God but we are also created in God’s image and likeness and the conflict within each one of our hearts is the fires that fuel human history.

    But why not, to the best of our ability, move things that we’re not to touch away from tempting or endangering our children? I would move the stuff out of the way for several reasons.

    -Because I will not tempt my children
    -If there is a real danger, I do not want to endanger the child.
    -If I honestly don’t want my child to touch something, I reinforce my words with my actions.
    -I am far too lazy to hover consistantly.
    -Children learn by exploring their environment and I don’t want to cause the process to be inhibited.
    -If I am teaching my child that their worlds are to revolve around me (the parent) I am modeling the opposite of the stated goal, I am trying to teach my child not to be selfish by modeling selfishness. Remember, we learn by example not by lectures.

    Again, because of the duality of our nature, children are born sweet and innocent, their very physical features exist to make the parents want to love and take care of them. As far as sin nature goes, that was taken care of at the cross and one of the most wonderous and liberating aspects of the cross is that we don’t need to do anything to improve it.

    Yes, thanks to Jesus, I get to sit back, relax, and enjoy my kids instead of setting them up for hand-thumping learning opportunities because they are such sin-riddled wretches that are destined to fuel hell’s fires unless I listen to all these teachings.

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  77. Born4Battle:

    The intent of my correspondence with Dr. Baucham was to clear up these 2 phrases: 5 spanks before breakfast and “wear out” a toddler.

    The first e-mail he gave a response. I asked him if I could post it publicly. He said no. This last e-mail he doesn’t discuss it whatsoever, in fact his tone completely changed. In his previous 2 e-mails he was light-hearted, encouraging, sincere, the last e-mail he is condescending, uses all caps, not very gracious or friendly at all.

    You need to understand: he has made the choice to not clarify himself. I have given him the opportunity to clear it up – told him I will post whatever he sends, and he hasn’t cleared it up. So, no, I don’t have a problem with the audio as representative of what he believes.

    My personal crusade is against abuse. I see no need to even joke about 5 spanks before breakfast or wear out a toddler whether it be with spankings or willpower. These words are alarming and so I am ringing the alarm.

    Having attended quite a few parenting classes over the years at homeschool venues, there is an underlying message that I have heard: our children are evil and we need to control our evil monsters.

    That is not the kind of tone I read in the Bible.

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  78. JA,

    Maybe your crusade is clouding your judgment a bit, I don’t know. You seem to think that he was advocating abusing children. If there was an overarching theme of exercising Biblical child-rearing principles (and they aren’t as scarce as you seem to think, in my opinion), AND his comment fit into the ‘cultural’ context of his own background (he wasn’t telling folks to beat their kids 5 times before breakfast) there is no real cause for concern. The deeper issue here seems to be the natural state of our children and their ‘evilness’. I don’t know what you mean by that, but I do know that none of us are born innocent and that every part of our being was affected by the sin of Adam, including our ‘natural’ will. We might not willfully commit a sin until sometime after we are born, but we are born selfish, wanting our own way, hating God by our unbelief and rebellious by nature. that’s Bible. We are not the sweet innocent creatures the shrinks say we are, needing only positive reinforcement and self-esteem massaging to turn out well (the aforementioned psychobabble).

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  79. It’s interesting to note that the list of reasons that Bornforbattle gives for listening to VB and agreeing with some if VB’s assertions are the very same teachings I heard from the Ezzos teachings 15-20 hears ago. The Ezzo’s own children will not interact with them nor let them see their grandchildren, unless that has changed. The Ezzos were asked to leave at least one church.

    I believed some of the Ezzo’s teachings for a time, but eventually found a significant disconnect between what they (and VB) advocate and who and what God says he is in Scripture. God didn’t woo me and draw me to himself by chastising and constant correction because of my rebellious and depraved self. His kindness led me to repentance. His love for me and mankind drew me to him. I want God to change me and mold me, but he doesn’t do that by whacking me every time I disobey. You can be sure that I’d be dead by now if God treated me that way, and I’m an adult. I can’t imagine God treating a toddler like that. I want to treat my children the way God does.

    I was nousious every time I felt “I had” to spank and there was terrible internal conflict, even though I wasn’t a five times before breakfast type, nor did I carry a spanking implement with me (ugh!) I simply stopped spanking one day. I was overwhelmed with what God was saying to me about Himself. BTW I do believe in discipline and I believe God disciplines, but discipline does not equal repeated spankings until a child does what I want without question. I can’t picture Jesus dealing with a child in that manner.

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  80. JA said:

    “Having attended quite a few parenting classes over the years at homeschool venues, there is an underlying message that I have heard: our children are evil and we need to control our evil monsters.”

    Unfortunately, this is the overall message that comes through loud and clear from these teachings for me as well. Of course there’s a need for discipline, but if it’s driven by this belief I believe it’s unhealthy. As more children become adults raised with these methods that reinforce this authoritarian attitude over little ones, I’m concerned about the long term fruit for these families.

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  81. “Having attended quite a few parenting classes over the years at homeschool venues, there is an underlying message that I have heard: our children are evil and we need to control our evil monsters.”

    When I was listening to Christianese AM radio in the Seventies, you heard the same in pretty much every Focus on the Family broadcast.

    Add to that this other radio preacher’s “When you see a cute little baby, GOD SEES AN UTTERLY DEPRAVED SINNER!!!!!” and things get very South Park very fast. Only nobody’s laughing.

    Liked by 1 person

  82. .
    Eph 6:4
    And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath:
    but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

    Col 3:21
    Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

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  83. What do I want for my step daughter? To love the Lord her God with all her heart, soul, mind and strength. So I ask myself, are my actions, words, encouragement, discipline, etc…. training her up to be that kind of person or pushing her the other way. It is a constant reevaluation. Knowing I can’t force her to love God, I can make sure I do everything to help her love God, and make sure i do nothing to cause her not to love God.

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  84. I know those passages well, A. Amos. Given that children will become angry for being spanked/put on restriction/whatever, what does that mean, exactly, especially in light of passages that talk about saving them from Hell via applying corporal punishment. That’s what we ought to be discussion, rather than bashing V.B. – the important principle to get into our hearts and minds.

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  85. At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:1-4, ESV)

    Hmm. Guess Jesus hadn’t read: Do not withhold discipline from a child. . . If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from [Hell]. (Proverbs 23:13-14, ESV)

    Or maybe Jesus was speaking about children who’s loving daddies had already beaten the hell out of them. Yeah. That’s gotta be it.

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  86. Don’t really need your dissertation concerning the term ‘Hell’. The principle of corporal punishment is what is at stake here in this Proverb. Call it a ‘maxim’, as many have defined such expressions in Proverbs. As one commentator explains (John Gill):

    Proverbs 23:14

    Thou shall beat him with the rod:

    Or, correct him with the stripes of the children of men, in a moderate and suitable manner, proportionable to the fault committed; and as he is able to bear it, both as to body and mind; and shalt deliver his soul from hell; be a means of preventing those sins which would bring to hell and destruction; and of bringing to repentance for those committed; and so of saving his soul, which should be the chief thing parents should have in view in chastising their children; the salvation of whose souls should be dear unto them, as it is to all truly gracious and thoughtful ones.

    Thanks for the preview of your book. By the look of this small piece, it seems you have decided to build a case against corporal punishment (could be spanking that while not causing bodily injury). The idea of corporal punishment that, while not causing bodily harm, can be of eventual spiritual good.

    We’re back to the ‘natural’ state of human will at birth, actually. If left to ourselves, we would all rush headlong into Hell,

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  87. Honest question: are there other verses in the Bible used to “prove” that spanking is biblical? So far I’ve only seen the aforementioned Proverbs verse, and I don’t recall seeing anything about a rod being mentioned in the New Testament.

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  88. Methodist Reader,

    Nothing about using rods on children. Here’s everything I find in English Standard Version:

    What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness? (1 Corinthians 4:21)

    The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27)

    Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, (Revelation 11:1)

    She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, (Revelation 12:5)

    From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Revelation 19:15)

    And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. (Revelation 21:15-16)

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