Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are Baaaack

Mark Driscoll, Tullian Tchividjian, Spiritual abuse, clergy sexual misconduct

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Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are Baaaack

Today was a really difficult day with the shootings in Las Vegas. As of this writing, 59 people have died, and over 500 injured. What a horrible, senseless tragedy, with so many people harmed. As I was reeling from that news, I learned that Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are back: Tullian, with a new website here; and Mark Driscoll, with a new blog on Patheos, here.

As my head was spinning with the thought that many lost loved ones today, it dawned on me that there have also been casualties with the “ministries” of these two men, not physical deaths, but emotional and spiritual deaths. In both cases, I know of people who have abandoned their faith. And many are still suffering from the effects of spiritual abuse.

But here they are again, Mark Driscoll already started his new church, but he is now putting himself more in the spotlight with his new blog. And Tullian . . . starting a new website and blogging . . . so soon????  Unreal. I have no words.

 

Here is the Facebook post from his wife, Stacie, announcing his new gig:

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And here’s Mark Driscoll:

 

We’ll have more to come on Tullian. Ugh!

 

 

150 comments on “Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are Baaaack

  1. Call me cynical, but I can’t help questioning the timing on both these stories in the midst of such tragedy in America. For these two individuals “sorry seems to be the hardest word”. I’m really saddened that these guys have appeared to have gotten away with so much in terms of abuse within the church. Then this morning I opened my wee bible ap and was reminded of some timely words in Proverbs 17 “After all, even a fool may be thought wise and intelligent if he stays quiet and keeps his mouth shut.” ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭17:28‬ ‭GNBDC‬‬ http://bible.com/416/pro.17.28.gnbdc People i.e. Their followers have been duped by their quietness with regards to their transgressions. Thankyou Julie Anne for all you do. Your blog has brought me so much not only strength but hope and healing in the last few years. It has helped me to know the heart of Jesus more. Keep doing what you are doing. It’s obvious your strength is in him. Bless you sweet sheep lady. Xx Olga

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    Liked by 2 people

  2. Let’s see? Narcissism, abuse of power, seduction of women, adultery multiple times.

    I agree with Barbara Roberts (10/3/17) that many big names are going to let this ride, Yet everywhere in the world there are humble courageous pastors and lay leaders who stand for what is right.

    Liked by 3 people

  3. I gotta say that I also am upset with the wives of these Yahoo’s. How do they stand it?? I would not be able to stand such a man I’d be loooooong gone.

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  4. That very first line from Tullian! Ugh…Also, ‘And Geez’ from Stacie?

    I can’t even with Driscoll. What up Pathos?

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  5. Is this Stacie Tchividjian a home-wrecker?

    Pretty sure Tullian did a good job wrecking his own home. But she was cool with marrying him.

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  6. Oh, I know Tullien is a weird serial pervert and a home-wrecker himself, but I wondered if she got with him while he was married.

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  7. I just recently visited Driscoll’s church and personal website and now this. What astounds me is there is nothing at all of the wreck that was done at Mars Hill. Like it never happened. And, like Driscoll is some kind and loving and Jesus-devoted helper who can lead people to hope and comfort. Without knowing the background of how Driscoll abused and harmed people and twisted the good news of Jesus through control-freak, hierarchical churchianity, it’s a sham.

    How did he get on Patheos? I was told you have to be invited to blog on that, but suspect he must of paid to get on.

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  8. So, it appears Tullian Tchividjian is on the comeback trail — again — this time with support by Paul Zahl.

    The article by Dr. Mark Jones linked to below shares many helpful thoughts on grace and forgiveness — and consequences and repentance. He also clearly shows a knowledge of the key issues in the unfolding history of Tullian Tchividjian’s multiple instances of clergy sexual misconduct, avoidance of accountability, and questionable repentance. He also gets at theological problems and probable destructive impacts of a comeback for someone who disqualified himself from public ministry and whose governing authority removed his ministry credentials.

    https://calvinistinternational.com/2017/10/03/paul-zahl-world-needs-tullian-preaching/

    [Comment edited to clarify content.]

    Liked by 2 people

  9. The fawning adoration from Zahl is vomit inducing.

    At least Stacie and Tullian have the consideration to compile a list of people to mark and avoid.
    Oh also, Matt Richard happily affirmed that Tullian is now a member of the Church of the Lutheran Brethren, where Matt used to be ordained. Matt is now LCMS. However Tullian is under a pastor that Matt really respects so… I guess it’s all good!
    gag

    Liked by 1 person

  10. i seem to remember getting told I was “slandering” by a certain seafaring jackass when I retweeted a satirical tweet from the old Tullian Tchananagans account about a comeback being in the works.

    Hey how come he doesn’t just hook up with Christ Hold Fast and 1517 Legacy? Are they suddenly excluding adulterous pastors now? Cant be, because Chad Bird and Daniel Price are still involved. So what’s with that?

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  11. I have updated the Resource Bibliography on System Issues Related to the Tullian Tchividjian Situation with links to recent blog posts and tweets. I also added the following summary, analysis, and links. You’ll find it at the bottom of the post, under “CHRONOLOGY: 2017.”

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/03/18/resource-bibliography-on-system-issues-related-to-the-tullian-tchividjian-situation/

    Key Events: August-September-October 2017. A new blog with the masthead Tullian: Sinner and Saint was apparently launched in August, with its first post dated August 6th. This renewed endeavor for a public platform gained more recognition with a post on September 15th by Patrick Thurmer, A Word from Tullian’s Pastor, and another by Paul Zahl on September 29th, Dust Became Mercy: A Word About My Friend Tullian. It seems they want him to be a public figure, like he was before.

    The site purports that “Tullian is a husband, a father, an author, a speaker, a sinner, and a saint who longs to see broken people encounter God’s boundless love.” However, there is no evidence available yet that he has repaired the damage he himself inflicted on multiple women he victimized in recent years (see above history and timelines) — many of them at the same time he was having books published (see this post on ministry-disqualifying character/behavior issues, and the related infographic that shows the overlap of details of sexual misconduct and publishing). This failure is the core to why there is some severe push-back against Tullian Tchividjian’s continuing attempts to restore a public platform for personal influence and teaching.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. That article you shared by Ponder Anew was spot on. And someone on twitter said Driscoll and Tullian are like whack-a-mole. LOL.

    As much as it pains me to see people get sucked into the Driscoll/Tchividjian orbit, I have to wonder who in the heck would fall for their schtick with all the available information on the internet now days???

    Liked by 1 person

  13. If there are still people who are taken in by these carnival barkers and part with their hard earned cash when the hat is passed, they deserve each other.

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  14. Muff,

    Let’s be careful to keep the responsibility where it belongs. You have a good point that people are responsible for being on their guard. But we’ve also heard the wolves use that same wording to blame people who fell for the scam. No one ever deserves to be scammed. Even the smartest people can fall for the tricks of highly skilled con artists. Let’s keep the burden of responsibility on the perpetrator.

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  15. The spin never stops with Tullian. His “new pastor” (notice that the people who knew him best are still distancing themselves, for a reason) claims that Tullian was living a humble life in “rural Texas”,making it sound like he was living in quiet solitude and reflection. What a wonderful man, all sack cloth and ashes, atoning for his sins. His journey through the wilderness after all that self-denial and atonement should surely come to an end, right?

    I don’t know if Tullian’s new pastor is willfully ignorant, an accomplice desperate for a tiny grab at some of that good ole Billy Graham fame by association, a co-dependent provider of narcissistic supply source or simply an easily duped man. But he is painting a false picture here.

    Mr Humble Rural Texas was living with Stacie in The Woodlands, which is where the wealthiest, chic and sexiest Houstonians live. If there was a Real Housewives of Houston it would be filmed in the Woodlands and it’s not improbable that Stacie Phillips and Tullian would apply to be on it. Stacie was featured as one of the top ten hottest bachelorettes in Houston. They were seen canoodling at the toniest night spots in Houston, not grieving over breaking up his family, wrecking his church and destroying the lives of at least 7 families of the ladies he was emotionally and sexually grooming for personal gain. This whole “I did my time in some humble, monastic shack in rural Texas” is pure, devious, manipulative Tullian spin, designed to lure gullible people back in. Shame on Tullian and shame on the pastor who is helping to paint this false narrative.

    Above all else, Tullian Tchividjian is a pathological and serial predator. No one should be aiding and abetting his next platform so that he can prey on more women.
    http://houston.culturemap.com/news/city-life/03-14-13-houstons-most-eligible-bachelors-and-bachelorettes-10-hot-singles-to-heat-up-your-march/#slide=6

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  17. Mr Humble Rural Texas was living with Stacie in The Woodlands, which is where the wealthiest, chic and sexiest Houstonians live

    Can you imagine referring to Houston, the fourth largest city in America, as ‘rural’??

    If there was a Real Housewives of Houston it would be filmed in the Woodlands and it’s not improbable that Stacie Phillips and Tullian would apply to be on it.

    Don’t give them any ideas!!!

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  18. Please let’s not forget to pray for Tullian’s and Stacie’s ex spouses and their children. They are the “main” victims and may never fully heal. Pray that God will surround them with loving, supportive people.

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  19. LT–

    Oh my! I clicked on that link. (I confess, I thought you were exaggerating about Stacie being listed as a most eligible bachelorette in a swanky Houston neighborhood.)

    So TT is pretending to be living a quiet rural lifestyle, but is actually married to a wealthy A-Lister.

    The spin never stops.

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  20. Based on his new church affiliation, do you think he’s planning on becoming a Lutheran minister at some point? Does anyone know if his new church is affiliated with a specific synod? For example, Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, American Lutheran, etc.?

    At one point in the recent past (2015?), he spoke to a group of seminarians at the Concordia Seminary in St. Louis which is part of the Lutheran church Missouri Synod. I believe it was for their Reformation 500 annual lecture series.

    Lutheran now, h’mmmm. I would not be surprised if this was an avenue along the TT comeback trail. Of course, becoming a pastor again would all depend on the specific rules / qualifications of the Lutheran church which may or may not be similar to the PCA. Is it possible to be disqualified from one denomination, but eligible for another?

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  21. @ Avid Reader
    You’ve heard the old expression “fool me once”…? Well yeah then you’re right, I (generic I) effed up… so cut me some slack.
    And then there’s the thing when you (generic you) continue to let em’ do it.
    You do see the salient difference? Yes? No? Which is why I stand on my original comment.

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  22. And then there’s the thing when you (generic you) continue to let em’ do it.

    Here is the thing I think people do. They see that they were fooled by a person, church, what have you. They learn from it some particular red flags and try to avoid those particular things – then sometimes they get caught up when something presents differently. I think in relationships you may see this as people going from one type of person to a totally different type, and then finding the same problems. In churches, maybe they switch denominations?

    Who is really letting these men in? I think in a lot of cases, it’s a bunch of people at the top, just like them. they have motives and are often not actually fooled. At least that’s my impression. Like Pathos. They’re looking for clicks, and lending credibility in the process.

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  23. Living Faith Church is associated with Church of the Lutheran Brethren (CLB).

    http://www.livingfaithchurch.us/

    http://www.clba.org/

    If you look at the CLB ABOUT tab Statement of Faith, and Core Values statement, the Lutheran emphasis on Law/Gospel is clearly there. I believe there are some helpful aspects to a Law/Gospel approach; discipleship does involve both understanding and seeking to live out mandates God has given us AND ALSO the empowerment by the Spirit to put those into action. However, there are problems in a Law/Gospel view that can quickly lead to “hyper-grace,” which has always seemed at play in both Tullian Tchividjian’s theology and his lifestyle.

    What I believe we’ve seen with how hyper-grace is lived out is that, IN EFFECT, justification and sanctification get collapsed into one state of being (though people might not think that’s what they’re believing). So, there really is no trajectory of transformation — just orbiting in a constant cycle of temptation-[optional: resisting]-sin-forgiveness-relief. With such an individualistic focus (i.e., how my sin affects ME in MY relationship with God), it would make sense that, as Nate Sparks tweeted a few days ago (paraphrasing), Tullian can admit to everything he’s done, and yet take responsibility for nothing.

    Admission of personal sin is not the same as remediation of relational damage. What has been done to take responsibility for the destructive impact on the lives of others?

    Being a sinner-saint is a biblical truth about our justification and standing before God and our state in this world, but sanctification is not some mere static state. Where is the evidence of seeking to change the dynamics so that cycles are less frequent because there is progress in self-control, and using the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh?

    Hyper-grace is not a healthy response to the equally flawed theologies and practices of legalism where behavioral conformity gives the appearance of sanctification, but ultimately (likewise) denies the power thereof. But hanging on to hyper-grace and accusing critics of legalism, lack of forgiveness, and having no grace just doesn’t wash. We need to point out faulty views of “grace/gospel” — just as we do with forms of “law” — in order to challenge the efforts for a public platform by those whose character and behavior disqualify them from it. And this, ultimately, is to protect the flock from those who demonstrate they use people as pawns for their own self advantage, which brings together personal accountability and social/relational responsibility.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. As Hunter S Thompson wrote about Richard Nixon:
    “What does it take to keep him from coming back? A stake through the heart?”

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  25. Interesting that Driscoll pretty much comes out and says that this return is about ‘control’. Apparently people seeking ‘guidance’ will come to his website so that he can control them.

    Tullian is much more slick. I’m sure his website will be full of self-deprecation and grace-seeking while behind the scenes, he grooms his followers to be rabid attack dogs against the naysayers.

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  26. Admission of personal sin is not the same as remediation of relational damage.

    Indeed. I think this is why I’ve started to hate hearing about these actions in terms of ‘sin’ and theology. What people are really doing is hurting other people. That’s wrong not just because God Says So. That’s wrong because it’s wrong. It’s a glaring lack of love and care for fellow humans, and not just generic random people – often people you have professed to love. That is what needs to be addressed imo and when people talk about it in terms of sin, they are often doing so expressly to avoid dealing with real people.

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  27. Wolves will do anything it takes to deceive people. Their whole game plan is figuring out and doing whatever is necessary to get people to drop their guard. Their favorite method is using good people to vouch for them because they know we will be skeptical of strangers but more likely to trust someone good who introduces them to us. Wolves are masters of deception. That’s how they can cheat the smartest people.

    Muff,
    By the way, I never meant to say to you that you messed up. Only that we need to stop allowing wolves to blame shift away from their own responsibility. People get scammed because wolves very carefully schemed to use any means necessary to pull the wool over their eyes.

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  28. No one would ever be scammed if the wolf hadn’t made evil choices in the first place. Let’s be careful never to let the wolf blame the victim for falling for the scam.

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  29. Church of the Lutheran Brethren? Speaking only for myself, this Lutheran does not want him near our people while in a position of authority. I would hope he could not get into LCMS, but I am also concerned for the Church of the Lutheran Brethren.

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  30. Terrier gal said,

    i seem to remember getting told I was “slandering” by a certain seafaring jackass when I retweeted a satirical tweet from the old Tullian Tchananagans account about a comeback being in the works.

    By “sea faring jackass,” did you mean Pirate Radio host Chris Rosebrough?

    I remember when Julie Anne began tweeting and blogging about Tullian’s Shenanigans over a year ago, Rosebrough was tut-tutting her, saying she didn’t have all the facts like he did.

    If I recall correctly, the only “facts” Rosebrough had at the time is that he spoke by phone first hand with some pastor friend dude of Tullian’s, who reassured Rosebrough that Tullian was repenting and being a good boy.

    It wasn’t until Julie Anne began publishing a 657,856 series of the 6567,345 women Tullian slept with that Rosebrough blushed, got all embarrassed, deleted all his pro-fawning Tullian content from his own site and said, “Oops!!! My Bad!!”

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  31. J. Smith: CLB is not in fellowship with LCMS or WELS/ELS. I doubt he would be accepted into any of these denominations as a pastor. It did not sit well with me when he spoke at Concordia which I think was before all this came to light.

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  32. More “grooming” and more spiritual abuse to come by Tullian and Mark, using the Name of Jesus, in vain, for their personal gain.

    The Body of Christ should be grieving and warning innocent sheep of these wolves who are sharpening their teeth and arranging their coffers for the fleecing. And as they approach their pulpits, stages, or any other Nicolaitan platform in lording it others, they will soak in the applause, the patting of their backs, the positive comments they will receive, all of the gifts to them, personally, and their families, from the pew sitters, and especially the volumes of money, money, money. For in their hearts, they desire to enrich their lavish lifestyles, for they truly desire to be “first” and “foremost” amongst the church folks, twisting the Holy Scriptures for their kingdoms and their gain.

    And even more painful to the Body of Christ, they will have their henchmen and women (false preachers and teachers/ pseudo Christian leadership), defending their honor, their doctrines, and their lifestyles because behind the scenes, for they are good buddies. And rare, is that individual who says, “I was wrong, please forgive me.”

    There are pastors now writing articles, etc., denouncing church goers for making sports an idol in this country. I have to wonder if they have ever analyzed the “house of God” for a moment, for I believe we have a worse case scenario, that even Jesus called out in His day.

    “I believe the most frightening idolatry happening in America today, is the worship of the clergy class/religious leadership class and the power they have over God’s people.” Follow the false religion, the prostitute church, and you will find lucrative money trail. This concerns me more that watching a football game in person on the television screen.

    Liked by 3 people

  33. Kay, you are spot on. Not only worshiping the religious leaders and their power (who claim they have all the answers) but worshiping the whole institutional church system. So, Seattle, for example, is described by Mars Hill and Driscoll as a great spiritual desert in desperate need of Jesus (meaning they need Bible-preaching churches like MH who really preach the Gospel). In their world, God is not moving unless a MH type church with church authority (able to put you under church discipline when necessary) and their brand of the gospel and discipleship has made a mark (Driscoll loved to brag about 10,000 baptisms in MH churches). This puts God only accessible in institutional churches and people only able to tap God if they put themselves under those churches. This is pure legalistic and control-freak religion.

    I find God and Jesus more present in my local Rotary Club than in churches, where the club motto is “service over self” and where they never talk about the Bible or religion but actually live out love for neighbor.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. @mwcamp

    You have given me much hope, sir! Alleluia and Amen to all you said!

    I believe in the real world, churches like Mars Hill would be called “a cult” with cult leaders lording it over others for their own personal gain. I used to believe the commandment that states, “Thou shalt not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain,” meant that we should not use His Name as a curse word.

    I now believe it’s meant that we, the Body of Christ, should never use God’s Name for personal gain as we experience in the western churches.

    Liked by 2 people

  35. I notice Tullian’s book is for sale. Sigh…
    Maybe it’s time to get an ordinary job, Tullian.

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  36. One of the little people: I might add on his new website there’s a question box asking for input; “What new resources should Tullian create?” Its located in the “share your story” section.

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  37. @Lea:

    Admission of personal sin is not the same as remediation of relational damage.

    Indeed. I think this is why I’ve started to hate hearing about these actions in terms of ‘sin’ and theology.

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  38. Katy, Thanks! Yes, there are two things going on that are hopeful. One, people are discovering that modern churches are not the real model of gatherings in the NT — and they are a problematic model at that (professional clergy, church authority, etc.). So, they are only healthy if they recognize the problems and are transparent about them. Then, with that, we discover modern churches are optional, not mandatory. Then we discover there are many other “organic” ways to have gatherings of Jesus believers. Homes, pubs, cafes, conferences, etc.

    Two, is the discovery that God works outside the church, probably more than he does inside the church, because the church is so full of itself. So Rotary Clubs, NGOs, human rights movements, criminal justice reform, other causes, etc., etc., are reflecting the kingdom of God more than churches. Churches focus on right doctrine and religious codes to test membership, whereas these other “gatherings” focus on love, dignity, respect, economic equality, and human rights for all — particularly “the least of these.”

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  39. Re the tag “cleargy sexual misconduct”:

    These days, I’m getting surprised when I hear of clergy WITHOUT sexual misconduct.

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  40. Some of you reading this right now are called to be pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc. Don’t let anyone talk you out of what God has put in your heart. Yes the Rotary Club does many wonderful works. We need more service oriented type organizations to meet physical needs. But the heart of God bleeds for spiritual needs to be met. Jesus asked us to pray for more laborers to go to the harvest. The Rotary Club is not spreading the good news of redemption through Christ.

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  41. Hi Katy

    Yes – Me too…
    “I used to believe the commandment that states,
    “Thou shalt not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain,”
    meant that we should not use His Name as a curse word.”

    Ex 20:7
    Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
    for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    xxxxxxx

    Yes – I like your way of thinking… You write…
    “I now believe it’s meant that we, the Body of Christ,
    should never use God’s Name for personal gain
    as we experience in the western churches.”
    xxxxxxx

    And – Here’s an additional way of thinking…
    “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”

    Thou shalt NOT “take”… (“Take” something that does NOT belong to you.)
    “the name” of the LORD thy God… (“Names” that belong to God.)
    in “Vain”… (Strongs = #7723 = shav’ – evil – figuratively idolatry – false.)

    “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”
    Has to do with “Today’s Wanna-be Religious Leaders”
    Taking for themselves…
    ”the Names and “Titles,” of God.”

    And taking those ”Names” and “Titles,” in Vain.

    ”Names” and “Titles,” like…
    Shepherd – Leader – Reverend.

    Could this be why… In the Bible…
    NOT one of His Disciples called themself, or “took” the “Title,” pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or poimen? Or leader? or reverend?

    1 – Shepherd
    Psalm 23:1 – The Lord is my shepherd.
    1 Pet 2:25 …returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    John 10:16 …there shall be ”ONE” fold and “ONE” shepherd.

    2 – Leader
    Jesus taught His Disciples. “And do NOT be called leaders;”
    ‘For “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Mat 23:10 NASB.

    3 – Reverend
    …holy and reverend is his name. Psalm 111:9 KJV — (name. = shem)

    Hmmm? What about – ”Todays, Shepherds, Leaders, Reverends?”
    Aren’t these ”Names” and “Titles,” belonging to the LORD thy God?

    Are “Today’s Wanna-be Religious Leaders?”
    ”Taking God’s Name?” — And taking His Name – in Vain?

    Oy Vey!!! 😦

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  42. Hi Amos,

    Welcome back. Been a while since we heard from you. Hope all is well.

    Just read your comment and am still absorbing what you said! We’ve already had a fascinating long discussion on another thread where we exhausted just about every verse on this topic so I don’t want to repeat all the ground that we’ve already covered. However—since this issue has been raised again—Amos, please confirm if you still believe what you said previously:

    1) Amos believes that no one is called by God to be pastor, evangelist, teacher, etc.

    2) Amos believes that any pastor who receives tithes is a wolf. That means Amos is calling Pastor Jeff Crippen a wolf simply because he receives a salary for his work.

    3) Now Amos just stated that to be a pastor automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain. Whoa! That’s throwing a lot of NT verses right out the window!

    Please note that pure logic can sometimes sound cold and detached. That’s not my intention. I’m just really surprised that Amos is accusing good people of taking God’s name in vain—simply for trying to fulfill the call of God on their lives.

    We believed Jane when she described hearing the call of God to be a pastor. We would love to see her fulfilling that calling. She has already shaken up the evangelical world with one blog post. Imagine what she could do with a bigger platform. Does anyone here object to Jane having the resources she needs to fulfill her calling?

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  43. Hi Avid Reader

    Sorry I did NOT explain myself properly in our other conversations.

    You ask me…
    “please confirm if you still believe what you said previously:”

    Well, the things you said I, Amos, said, previously… And believes…
    I never said… Or believed…

    I’ll try to do a little better. 😉
    xxxxxxx

    You write…
    “1) Amos believes that no one is called by God
    to be pastor, evangelist, teacher, etc.”

    Nope… I never said that…

    I do ask folks… When they say, “Being a pastor is a calling.”

    I’ll ask… In the Bible… Can you name…
    One of His Disciples called by God to be a pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    One of His Disciples who called themself pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    One of His Disciples who was called pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    One of His Disciples who “took” the “Title,” pastor?

    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    In Eph 4:11,
    And “he gave”
    some, apostles;
    and some, prophets;
    and some, evangelists;
    and some, pastors and teachers;

    I often say, pastors, in the Bible…
    Ain’t nuttin like what WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church…
    Find in “Today’s Religious Systems.”

    In the Bible, can you name…
    One of His Disciples who became a…
    Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit?
    Preaching, to People in Pews?
    Weak after Weak?

    In the Bible, any pastor/shepherds “he gave” in Eph 4:11…
    Were anonymous, NOT known…

    But, maybe you can name one that I missed…

    In the Bible, any pastor/shepherds, “he gave” are
    NOT “Titled.” Like WE, His Sheep, see today.
    NOT Hired. Or Fired
    NOT Hired, from one congregation, to go to another congregation.
    NOT speaking of themself seeking their own glory.
    Putting their name and “Title” on office doors, Secratary’s desks,
    Sunday Morning bullitins, Street signs, Diplomas on walls, etc…

    NOT having their own parking space. 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  44. Avid Reader, I can’t speak for Amos, but there is a perfectly “biblical” way of interpreting pastor, evangelist, and teacher as roles, not offices. This model says Western Christianity has gone too far calling people by those names as a title. The NT teaches they are gifts or roles, but not titles to call someone. And, there is no model for a professional pastor in the NT, where tithes are used to pay a person a salary.

    In my mind, calling a pastor a wolf for taking a salary is wrong, BUT if that same pastor twists scripture to lay a guilt trip on church members that they MUST tithe to his church or else they are being disobedient to God, then “wolf” might fit. Modern pastors and churches should be honest about the modern church model of salaried clergy paid by tithes. They are free to use that model, but should make clear it is voluntary, not a matter of obedience to God. This is very serious to twist the Bible to fit some modern model as if God ordained that to be a good Christian one must join an institutional church and “tithe” to it to pay expenses and salaries of workers and leaders. The NT never ordains or commands that. Tithing is an OT concept for a totally different purpose.

    Liked by 1 person

  45. Avid Reader

    You write…
    “2) Amos believes that any pastor who receives tithes is a wolf.
    That means Amos is calling Pastor Jeff Crippen a wolf
    simply because he receives a salary for his work.”

    NOPE… I never said that…

    And, I’m NOT calling Jeff Crippen a wolf.
    I do NOT know what Jeff Crippen thinks, or teaches, about “Tithes.”

    Do you Know???

    And, I’m-a-thinkn, Jeff knows my feeling about the “title” pastor.

    And, “tithes” and “salary” are two different things…

    In the Bible, The “Tithe” was never Silver, Gold, or Money.

    It was always food to be eaten, or sacrificed to God.

    Have you ever seen a Benjamin, a $50 bill, burnt on an alter. 🙂

    The “Tithe” was NEVER from wages.
    xxxxxxx

    I do like this “Tithe.”
    But, I NEVER heard about it from the pulpit, by a pastor. 🙂

    This “Tithe” is for You and Your family to EAT? And Rejoice.
    That You and Your family may learn to fear the LORD thy God?

    Deuteronomy 14:22-26 KJV
    Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of “thy seed,”
    that the field bringeth forth year by year.

    23 And thou (You) shalt EAT before the LORD thy God,
    in the place which he shall choose to place his name there,
    the tithe of thy (Your) corn, of (Your) wine, and of thine (Your) oil,
    and the firstlings of thy (Your) herds and of thy (Your) flocks;
    that thou (You) mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

    24 And if the way be too long for thee,
    so that thou art not able to carry it;
    or if the place be too far from thee,
    which the LORD thy God shall choose
    to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

    25 Then shalt thou turn it into Money,
    and bind up the money in thine hand,
    and shalt go unto the place
    which the LORD thy God shall choose:

    26 And thou shalt bestow that money
    for whatsoever thy (YOUR) soul lusteth after,
    for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink,
    or for whatsoever thy soul desireth:
    and thou (YOU) shalt EAT there before the LORD thy God,
    and thou (YOU) shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

    Like

  46. mwcamp

    You write…
    “I can’t speak for Amos…”

    Oh, yes you can… 🙂

    Your reply was excellent…

    “there is no model for a professional pastor in the NT”

    NONE..

    Yes – “…pastor, evangelist, and teacher as roles, not offices.”

    And, roles… NOT “Titles.”

    Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
    neither let me give Flattering Titles unto man.
    For I know NOT to give Flattering Titles;
    in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
    Job 32:21 KJV

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Avid reader

    In my experience with the “Title/Position” of Today’s pastor/leader/reverend…
    A “Title/Position,” that does NOT exist in the Bible…
    For one of His Disciples.

    “Titles” become “Idols”
    “Pastors” become “Masters”
    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”

    “Titles” become “Idols” ………….. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters”……..A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV
    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”….Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV
    xxxxxxx

    “Titles” will be used to “Separate” the brethren.
    I am – You are NOT.

    “Titles” will be used to “Elevate” one brethren over another brethren.
    I’m the shepherd – You are only sheep.

    “Titles” will be used to “Control” and “Manipulate” the brethren.

    Because I’m “The Pastor.”
    Your God ordained authority.
    Don’t touch the head of God’s anointed.

    “Titles” – “Separate”
    “Titles” – “Elevate”
    “Titles” – Will be used to “Control” and “ Manipulate.”
    xxxxxxx

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds
    have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to
    the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Liked by 1 person

  48. Amos, I get it. Christians want visible leaders and guides… they want men to follow.

    Jesus says, “Follow ME”.

    I see no salaried religious professionals in the New Testament.

    Christians are heaping up teachers left, right and centre… just like Paul said would happen.

    Avid, God gives his people gifts to proclaim the gospel. Those of us who do so ARE acting as ‘evangelists’. Those who spend time guiding younger believers ARE acting as ‘pastors/shepherds’ and ‘teachers’. The key word is ‘SOME’. He gave SOME… teachers, evangelists, pastors.

    Not ALL.

    Some.

    But a few.

    The entire Institutional ‘church’ system is a harlot.

    It sets itself up against God and the Holy Spirit is left outside its gates.

    Those of us who reject the system and still walk one on one with God can see it clearly.

    But many choose not to.

    They want their clubs.

    Amos gets it. Mwcamp too.

    Liked by 2 people

  49. Amos, “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.” (Titus 1:5-6)

    I’ve been deeply hurt by people who were appointed as pastors and elders, but I’m not going to throw out everything the Bible teaches about that. I think we have to differentiate between Biblical pastors and elders and Institutional pastors and elders. For example, in “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”, the authors talk about pastors and elders as primarily people who God has led on a journey of wisdom. In other words authority = God-directed life experience. On the other hand, the institutional church considers pastors and elders to be those who are willing, and those who have had the proper theological training. In other words authority = knowledge + church approval. I find it odd that 25 year olds are graduating from seminary and are expected to be the pastors and leaders of their churches. Most of these are newly married, have maybe a 3yo kid, and haven’t had any sort of full-time job, yet they are expected to be the advisors, counselors and teachers of a church?

    If you doubt that professional ministry is part of the NT model, 1 Corinthians 9 is Paul’s defense of paid ministers. “Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.” (13-14)

    Like the NT church, I think we mistake eloquence and forceful personality for God-given authority. I think the Corinthian church was expecting Paul to have a forceful personality, and his demeanor when he was there probably did not match their expectations. We still yearn for someone to ‘tell us what to do’ from the pulpit, and unfortunately, there are many wolves who would love to do just that.

    Like

  50. The Church of the Lutheran Brethren seems an odd choice. They are an historically Pietist body, and reject certain aspects of Lutheran belief, such as espousing premillienialism (Lutherans are amillenial), Absolution, and subscription to the Book of Concord. I think they may have been teetotallers historically, but I may be wrong.

    Why did he choose this denomination?

    Like

  51. Avid Reader

    You write…
    “3) Now Amos just stated that to be a pastor automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain. Whoa! That’s throwing a lot of NT verses right out the window!”

    NOPE… I never said that…

    I’ll say it again…
    Any pastors/shepherds, in the Bible
    Ain’t nuttin like what WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church…
    Find in “Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems.”

    In the Bible, any, “shepherds,” “he gave” in Eph 4:11…
    Were anonymous, NOT known…

    In the Bible, any “shepherds,” pastors, “he gave”
    Did NOT tell anyone they were a shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
    Did NOT call themself shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
    Did NOT call another Disciple, shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
    Did NOT promote themselves as a shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
    Did NOT promote themselves as a “Special Clergy Class.”
    Did NOT promote His Sheep, as a “lesser lay people class.”

    Like WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, SEE, over and over again, in…

    “Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems.”

    1 Pet 5:2-3 KJV
    Feed the flock of God which is among you, (Among – NOT over.)
    taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint,
    but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    Neither as being lords over God’s heritage,
    but being ensamples to the flock.

    Shepherds, in the Bible, are like Julie Anne…
    And many others on this site…

    They just Feed The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, KJV
    They just Tend The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, RSV
    They just Care For The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, NLT
    They just Shepherd The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, NKJV

    NO “Titles,” needed.
    NO “Ordination,” needed.
    NO “Demanding,” that other sheep obey them, needed.

    NO “Call me pastor, Call me leader, Call me reverend, needed.

    NO “Taking” the name of the LORD thy God needed.

    Like

  52. Avid Reader

    Boy, I must have done a real lousy job in our past conversations.
    You have mis-understood me, and mis-quoted me, ALL three times.

    Three times you have said… I, Amos, said, and believed…
    Stuff I NEVER said, or believed.

    You you do NOT have to apologize or ask for forgiveness…

    I have already forgiven you. 😉

    Like

  53. Avid Reader

    “3) Now Amos just stated that to be a pastor
    automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain.
    Whoa! That’s throwing a lot of NT verses right out the window!”

    NOPE… I never said that…

    I’m-a-thinkn…
    When you Take the position of shepherd, leader, reverend…
    When you Take the “Title,” of shepherd, leader, reverend…

    You are Taking the name of the Lord thy God, in Vain.
    xxxxxxx

    Maybe this will help…

    NAME – In Strongs – is #8034 – shem
    1 – a definite and conspicuous position…
    (
    conspicuous – Dictionary – standing out, clearly visible)

    2 – an appellation
    (
    appellation – Dictionary – a name or “Title”)

    3 – by implication honor, authority, character.
    xxxxxxx

    Now, When Exodus 20:7, says, “Thou shalt NOT take the Name.”
    Could WE, His Sheep, understand that as…

    Thou shalt NOT take the Name
    a definite and conspicuous position – of the LORD thy God…???

    Thou shalt NOT take the Name
    an appellation – a name or “Title” – of the LORD thy God…???

    Thou shalt NOT take the Name
    the honor, authority, character – of the LORD thy God…???
    xxxxxxx

    VAIN – In Strongs = #7723 = shav’
    1 – in the sense of desolating; –
    (
    desolate – Dictionary – bleak and dismal emptiness)

    2 – evil (as destructive),
    (
    destructive – Dictionary – causing great and irreparable harm)

    3 – figuratively *idolatry
    ( *idolatry – Dictionary – worship, admiration, reverence for something)

    4 – *vain
    ( *vain – Dictionary – having a high opinion of one’s, abilities, or worth)

    5 – vanity
    (
    vanity – Disctionary – pride in or admiration of one’s own achievements)
    xxxxxxx

    Avid?
    What about – ”Todays, Shepherds, Leaders, Reverends?”
    Aren’t these ”Names” and “Titles,” belonging to the LORD thy God?

    Are “Today’s Wanna-be Religious Leaders?”
    ”Taking God’s Name?” — And taking His Name – in Vain?

    Oy Vey!!! 😦

    Like

  54. Hi Mark

    Thanks for your comment…

    Much agreement when you write…
    “I think we have to differentiate between ** Biblical pastors** and elders
    and Institutional pastors and elders.”

    Me too…
    “I find it odd that 25 year olds are graduating from seminary
    and are expected to be the pastors and leaders of their churches.
    Most of these are newly married, have maybe a 3yo kid,
    and haven’t had any sort of full-time job,
    yet they are expected to be the advisors,
    counselors and teachers of a church?”

    Yeah, How’s that bin-a- workin?
    xxxxxxx

    Seems, many times, in the Bible, elder just means older…
    And NOT an “office” to be looked up to.
    Yes – “God-directed life experience” counts – big time.

    And Biblical pastors were anonymous, NOT known…

    Biblical pastors do NOT call themselves pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    Biblical pastors do NOT take the “Title,” pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    Biblical pastors are NOT Hired as a pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    Biblical pastors do NOT become…
    Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits…
    Preaching, to People in Pews…
    Weak after Weak.

    Institutional pastors put their name and “Title” everywhere…
    And Promote themselves as leaders, church leaders, spiritual leaders…
    And Promote themselves as “God Ordained Authority.”
    And Exercise Authority like the Gentiles…
    And Lord it Over God’s heritage…
    And do NOT submit one to another…

    Institutional pastors want you to, and teach you to…
    Pray, Pay, Stay and Obey… 😉

    Biblical pastors want you to, and teach you to…
    Get it for yourself from Jesus…
    You need NO man teach you…
    God will teach you ALL truth…
    The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you into ALL truth.

    His Sheep, Hear His Voice and Follow Jesus…
    Those who are “Led” by the Spirit are the sons of God…
    NOT those “Led” by a Mere Fallible Human…
    xxxxxxx

    Be blessed in your search for truth…

    Like

  55. Hi Salty

    It’s been awhile… Good to hear from you… 🙂

    Yes – You get it…

    “Jesus says, “Follow ME”.”
    “I see no salaried religious professionals in the New Testament.”

    Yup – Folks can go Directly to Jesus… NO middle man… 😉

    Then share what Jesus has taught you…

    Seems Paul, and most likely Jesus…
    Gave some instructions for ALL…
    WE, His Sheep, His Disciples…
    when ye come together,

    when ye come together,
    ALL, can, and are expectd to “Particapate.”

    1 Cor 14:26 KJV
    How is it then, brethren?
    when ye come together,
    every one of you
    hath a psalm,
    hath a doctrine, (Teaching.)
    hath a tongue,
    hath a revelation,
    hath an interpretation.
    Let all things be done unto edifying.

    Is this what Institutional pastors and elders promote?
    For the equpping of the saints? For the work of the ministry?
    In “Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems?”

    NOPE…

    Yes – In the Bible, when ye come together,
    ALL can, and are expected to,
    “Participate.”

    NOT listen to just one and,
    “Regurgitate”

    When you listen to “a special one”
    “Pontificate.”

    Eventually that “special one” thinks they have permission to
    “Bloviate.”

    Like

  56. Mwcamp,

    As we sit in our comfortable houses, enjoying the best of everything, the heart of God bleeds for millions of souls that are suffering around the world. We see a glimpse of God’s heart in Ezekiel 34:

    God is very angry at the shepherds. For using the title shepherd? Nope. For not taking care of the flock. Because they have NOT:

    1) Strengthened the weak
    2) Healed the sick
    3) Bandaged the hurt
    4) Brought back the ones that wandered off
    5) Looked for the ones who were lost
    6) Nourished the sheep

    Feel the anger pouring out of God’s heart as He blasts the shepherds for not doing any of that. “Instead you have treated them cruelly.” Ezekiel 34:4(GNT)

    Now look at verse 5: “So they were scattered because there was no shepherd. When they were scattered they became food for every wild animal…..no one looked for them.” Eze 34:5-6 (GW)

    Notice:
    #1—Shepherds are needed.

    #2—Shepherds are supposed to be diligently searching to find and help those who have been scattered and hurt.

    #3—God gets really upset at shepherds who rule with violence and cruelty (verse 4).

    Now in many previous conversations with Amos, I gave several examples of people who fulfilled the call of God on their lives outside of the institutional church. There are many parts of the body of Christ—some inside—some outside the institutional church. One part of the body can’t say to the other part, “I have no need of you.” (1Cor 12:21)

    Look at Amy Carmichael who served fifty-five years in India without any breaks. She is remembered for rescuing many little children from the horrors of temple prostitution and successfully lobbing India to pass laws against temple p. If anyone is interested, her actual writings are available for free as Kindle downloads on Amazon. They are a fascinating glimpse into what life is really like doing the work of the ministry. Very gritty and sometimes horrifying. For example, she tells the story of a teenager who gave their life to the Lord and then was poisoned by their own family for bringing shame on the family by leaving their caste. Amy explained that the cultural identity took considerable pride in their caste system. To change religions was considered rejecting the caste position. (Note: Amy Carmichael was also what inspired Jim and Elizabeth Elliott to take the Gospel into the remote jungle.)

    Another example is Gladys Alyward who felt called to the mission field but no one would support her. She was actually rejected by Christian organizations. So she worked as a maid, saved up her own money and bought a train ticket to China. On the way there, she told her story to the couple sitting next to her on the train. They gave her cash. That cash saved her life shortly afterward when she had to bribe her way out of a dangerous situation. Then when she arrived in China, she rescued over a hundred children from a brutal life on the streets, giving them a loving home. Again no one was funding her so there were times that she had to knock on doors and beg the villagers to help her feed the children that she was caring for. That should have never happened. She should have had the resources she needed.

    Today there are many other people around the world doing the work of the ministry. Does anyone here object to them having the resources they need to help others?

    This whole discussion is about how God gives gifts and talents to all of us. We are all needed to function in our calling to help others. Some of you are called to be mechanics, accountants, teachers, truck drivers, and yes, pastors too.

    Does anyone get offended that doctors use the title doctor? When you need major surgery, do you want a doctor who has to work full time as a mechanic to pay the bills and only practices medicine on the weekend? Of course not. You want a doctor with twelve years of education and thirty years of full time experience doing that exact type of surgery. What’s wrong with them having a title or getting paid for the work they do?

    Mwcamp, are you saying that it’s ok for pastors to receive a salary but if they teach tithing—that automatically makes them a wolf? Of course, there’s no place for high pressure sermons guilting people into giving large sums. But are you saying that the very act of teaching tithing itself is unfairly pressuring people?

    Jesus taught us the NT model of those who preach the Gospel receiving their living from it. We’ve already covered those verses in our previous discussions, so I won’t repeat all that—unless you guys want me to make the full case.

    Next—I’m going to respond to the other comments.

    Like

  57. On 10-8-17 at 10:49AM Amos wrote

    “Biblical pastors do NOT take the Title, pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.”

    No Amos, you are wrong. There’s no verse that says, “Thou shalt not use the title pastor!”

    The titles pastor, evangelist, teacher come from the very pages of Scripture. How can you say that it’s not Biblical to use the very titles that the Bible uses?

    Like

  58. On 10-7-17 at 2:26PM, Amos wrote:

    “Titles become idols”

    “Leaders become deceivers”

    “Titles will be used to Control and Manipulate the brethren.”

    Then Amos quotes Jeremiah 50:6 “Their shepherds have caused them to go astray.”

    That’s a really important verse warning us about the wolves. However, Amos is taking that verse out of context.

    Logical fallacy: Because some leaders have led people astray—therefore all leaders will automatically lead people astray. That there’s no possible way to be a leader without leading people astray.

    Like

  59. Amos,

    No one remembers everything they said on social media. It’s ok if you’ve forgotten some of our previous conversations. Here’s what happened:

    On Jan 24, 2017 at 9:32AM
    Amos said: “a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.” Therefore any pastor who teaches tithing “That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”

    Well, then that would be calling Jesus a wolf, because Jesus taught tithing in the NT.
    Now Amos is welcome to change her mind as many times as she wants. But she keeps denying her own words. Twice on this thread—Amos has said that using the title pastor automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain. In the 10:03AM comment she actually repeats it again and then again denies she said it!

    Amos wrote:
    “When you Take the position of shepherd……When you Take the “Title,” of shepherd……You are Taking the name of the Lord thy God, in Vain.”

    By that crazy logic—then Pastor Jeff Crippen would be guilty of taking God’s name in vain simply because he uses the word pastor! Does Amos want him to lie about the work he does? Should he say he’s a mechanic, because Amos won’t let him use the word pastor?

    Now this comment is hard to write, because I like Amos. She’s got a brilliant mind with lots of ideas and she’s got big heart for helping people, frequently volunteering her time to help others.

    Thus I was really surprised when Amos became condescending in her 10-8-17 at 8:26AM comment by saying that I need her forgiveness simply for holding her accountable for her own words. Let’s get one thing straight—if Amos is going to keep saying crazy things then we are going to keep holding her accountable for her comments.

    Like

  60. Avid Reader – I greatly admire your patience! What you are saying is true.

    In quite correctly rejecting ravenous wolves, A A L is simultaneously rejecting
    ‘elders’ (or whatever you like to call them) who are appointed in the church by the Holy Spirit. Let’s just say I don’t think the answer to this problem will be obtained through reasoning.

    Like

  61. KAS, the word ‘elder’ in the bible simply means older. As in, “he is older than his wife”.

    It’s not a religious term. Elders exist amongst God’s people. They’re not religious leaders they are godly OLDER (literally- elders by age) who have proven themselves to be an example to follow. I know many godly elders who have no religious leaders. I personally identify them as a mature and godly person worthy of seeking out for counsel when required.

    They don’t need a salary to serve God’s people.

    Liked by 1 person

  62. Salty,

    When you need major surgery, do you want a doctor who has to work as a mechanic full time to pay the bills because he can’t take a salary or use the title doctor? Of course not. Why does no one get offended that mechanics receive a salary to change your oil, but the most important thing to the heart of God—spreading the Gospel that Jesus came to set the captives free—people get so offended that anyone actually needs to provide for their family!

    How could Gladys Alyward have worked a full time job to pay the bills on the mission field? Should Amy Carmichael have gotten a full time job because you don’t want her to have a salary? If Pastor Jeff Crippen didn’t have a salary from his church, then he would have to go back to being a police officer. That means sixty hours a week doing police work that wouldn’t be devoted to the work of the ministry.

    Like

  63. The reason why no one gets offended that paramedics get a salary to treat physical injuries but people get really offended at the thought that someone doing the work of the ministry (helping the broken hearted and emotionally/spiritually wounded) is because we are valuing treatment of physical needs as more important than emotional/spiritual needs.

    We need doctors to treat our physical illnesses. Yes, we can get emotionally healed all by ourselves, but it really helps to have trained professionals to treat depression and help bind up spiritual wounds. (By the way, Daisy did a great blog post a while back about the important of professionals for treating depression.)

    We believed Jane when she described feeling the call of God to be a pastor. Now it sounds like she’s working as a counselor or working towards being a professional counselor. That’s such an important career. Why can’t she have a salary for helping those that need it the most? Should she only be able to get that salary from the secular world? Why do people get so offended at the thought of her getting that salary from the body of Christ?

    Like

  64. With respect, If Jane felt the ‘call’ to BE a “Pastor” (pastor) she would already be gifted with the skills required and would already be doing the work of one.

    No one becomes a pastor of their own will. God gifts his people for service and they respond accordingly.

    I am well aware of both Eph and Cor and in no way view them as religious professions.

    I preach the gospel therefore I am an evangelist by definition.

    I guide younger believers in the faith therefore I act as a shepherd (pastor).

    I teach younger believers in the ways of God therefore I am a teacher.

    I do not command a salary to do the above. I do not call myself Evangelist/Pastor/Teacher (insert my name here) but here we are.

    As Paul said, “follow my example”.

    Did Paul receive a salary to serve?

    No he clearly did not. He worked willingly with his hands.

    So why do today’s religious professionals not heed Paul’s exhortation to “follow my example”?

    Selective obedience isn’t it?

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Avid. I have no issue suppprting people who travel abroad to spread the gospel.

    That is not the same as a man who usurps the Lord Jesus Christ’s title of ‘poimen’ Shepherd ‘Pastor’ to ‘serve’ (ironically for money).

    If they’re getting paid then it’s really not service is it? It’s a job.

    I just don’t see any New Testament example of a man leading a congregation in a purpose built meeting hall called The ‘Pastor’ and getting a salary to do so.

    This comes from Constantinian Christian Religion and has nothing to do with serving Jesus Christ and doing good.

    It’s been many years since I’ve been in a religious institution setting and yet magically here I am able to serve the brethren in my city. I spend much time talking with, praying with and serving others. It costs nothing but my time. I don’t charge a fee to ‘serve’.

    If I am able to do this then I see no reason for the multi million dollar religious institutions.

    I’m sure Mr Jeff Crippen is a nice guy.

    Is there any reason why he cannot follow Paul’s example and work a secular job? And use his gifts in his community in his own time and out of his own home?

    If the rest of us can manage it why not a salaried religious professional?

    Liked by 1 person

  66. Salty,

    Paul made the case for resources to spread the Gospel in 1Cor 9. He wrote,

    “No soldier ever serves in the army and pays his own salary.”

    Then Paul said:
    “These aren’t just my own thoughts. God’s law says the same thing.”

    “Surely you know that those who work at the Temple get their food from the Temple.”

    “It is the same with those who have the work of telling the Good News. The Lord has commanded that those who tell the Good News should get their living from this work.”
    1Cor 9 (ERV)

    Do soldiers have to work full time as restaurant waiters because they can’t take a salary for their service in the military? That’s the case that Paul made. Then Paul says that he has the right to draw financial support but he chose not to use that right.

    Salty, you are arguing that Paul never had that right in the first place. Check the text again.

    Was Jesus working as a carpenter to pay the bills during the three years that He traveled and ministered to the hurting?

    Like

  67. Salty,

    Would you choose a doctor for major surgery who works full time as a mechanic and only practices medicine on the weekend? Of course not. You would want a doctor with thirty years of full time experience doing the exact surgery that you need.

    Like

  68. Avid Reader

    Seems we have a disagreement…

    You’re correct…
    “No one remembers everything they said on social media.”

    You write @ OCTOBER 7, 2017 @ 11:50 AM
    “2) Amos believes that any pastor who receives tithes is a wolf. That means Amos is calling Pastor Jeff Crippen a wolf simply because he receives a salary for his work.”

    I replied to that comment @ OCTOBER 7, 2017 @ 1:46 PM… by saying…

    NOPE… I never said that…
    xxxxxxx

    But, this morning I see you wrote @ OCTOBER 8, 2017 @ 8:12 PM…

    No one remembers everything they said on social media. It’s ok if you’ve forgotten some of our previous conversations. Here’s what happened:

    On Jan 24, 2017 at 9:32AM
    Amos said: “a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.” Therefore any pastor who teaches tithing “That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”

    “Well, then that would be calling Jesus a wolf,
    because Jesus taught tithing in the NT.
    Now Amos is welcome to change her mind
    as many times as she wants.
    But she keeps denying her own words.
    xxxxxxx

    That looked, and felt, quite damming at first reading.
    Was I guilty? Did I really say that???
    That way?

    So, I went back and checked the WHOLE comment…

    You left out quite a bit of the comment.

    I’ll stick by my original answer…
    Because I never said, what you said I said…
    The way that you said I said it. 🙂

    NOPE… I NEVER said that… That way…

    Here’s the context of the way it was written…
    xxxxxxx

    You asked @ JANUARY 12, 2017 @ 7:45 AM…
    “Is it a sin for “good pastors” to receive tithes?

    I believe “a good pastor” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
    And, “a good pastor” would NEVER receive tithes.

    Because, in the NT, Jesus, taught His Disciples

    There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,” that is God. Mat 19:17.
    xxxxxxx

    So, the Good Shepherd, “Jesus,” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.

    I’ll repeat the WHOLE  comment. 😉

    Like

  69. Avid Reader
    Avid Reader
    Here is the WHOLE comment for your reading pleasure.
    xxxxxx

    Avid Reader

    I have NO problem with any believer giving MONEY.
    Giving MONEY to a ministry… Giving MONEY to people…

    I encourage believers, often, To Give Freely. – But…
    To ask Jesus first – where to give this MONEY. – Yes??? 🙂

    If Jesus has asked you to give MONEY to pastor Jeff?
    Or anyone who has taken the Title/Postion, pastor/leader/reverend?
    A Title that does NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    If Jesus asks you to give 10%, from your wages, MONEY…
    To pastor Jeff? Or any pastor?

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
    Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
    As a requirement? From the Bible?

    That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
    That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
    Whether That pastor knows it or NOT.

    That is what “Today’s Corrupt Religious System” often teaches. 😦

    You asked @ JANUARY 12, 2017 @ 7:45 AM…
    “Is it a sin for “good pastors” to receive tithes?

    I believe “a good pastor” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
    And, “a good pastor” would NEVER receive tithes.

    Because, in the NT, Jesus, taught His Disciples

    There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,” that is God. Mat 19:17.

    And, Jesus, called Himself, The Good Shepherd. John 10:11-14.

    And, Jesus, called Himself, ”The “ONE” Shepherd.” John 10:16
    xxxxxxxxxx

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  70. Avid Reader

    Thanks for reminding me of that comment…
    After re-reading it – I actually thought it was a reasonable comment. Yes?

    But – That’s the forth time you mis-quoted me…
    Made a false statement attributed to me…

    Was wondering…

    Why? would you take one sentence… from one part of the comment…
    And, add it to another sentence… from another part of the comment…
    And, leave out a whole bunch of stuff…

    And have it say something I never said or intended?
    xxxxxxx

    Here’s what you wrote…
    On Jan 24, 2017 at 9:32AM
    Amos said: “a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.” Therefore any pastor who teaches tithing “That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”

    Here’s how Amos wrote ,“That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.” First…
    This sentence from the comment comes “First.”

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
    Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
    As a requirement? From the Bible?

    That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
    That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
    Whether That pastor knows it or NOT.”
    xxxxxxx

    Here’s how Amos wrote ,““a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.”
    This sentence of the comment comes “Second.”

    I believe “a good pastor” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
    And, “a good pastor” would NEVER receive tithes.

    Because, in the NT, Jesus, taught His Disciples

    There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,” that is God. Mat 19:17.

    And, Jesus, called Himself, The Good Shepherd. John 10:11-14.

    And, Jesus, called Himself, ”The “ONE” Shepherd.” John 10:16
    xxxxxxx

    See, I was quoting Jesus, saying, “There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,”
    So, I’m-a-thinkn, there are NO “good pastors” according to Jesus.

    Was wondering…

    Why? would you take one sentence… from one part of the comment…
    And, add it to another sentence… from another part of the comment…
    And, leave out a whole bunch of stuff…

    And have it say something I never said or intended?

    Like

  71. For those interested in research reading on the unresolved problem patterns of Tullian Tchividjian:

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/03/18/resource-bibliography-on-system-issues-related-to-the-tullian-tchividjian-situation/

    I’ve added a few new article links at the very bottom, in “Chronology: 2017” section.

    To get the best historical context, I’d suggest tracking the following sources from three different angles. Each blog or author has posted a series of articles over a period of years.

    News articles: Leonardo Blair (along with a few other authors) at the Christian Post.

    Survivors’ personal narrative accounts plus analysis of new details in the situation as they emerge: Spiritual Sounding Board.

    Theological and pastoral analysis: Tony Arsenal and his Reformed Arsenal blog.

    There are many other sources listed, but if you follow through the series by each of those three, it shows significant evidence of long-term brokenness and sin patterns that are ongoing.

    Like

  72. Avid, I know 1 Corinthians 9 well. Grab a pen and carefully read the first 1-5 verses.

    Who is the chapter about?

    Paul or men who run businesses in purpose built temples wrongly called temples?

    What was Paul’s function?

    A messenger “apostle”?

    What did he do?

    He travelled to preach the gospel.

    Who does this today?

    Missionaries.

    1 Corinthians 9 is about first century apostles ‘messengers of the good news’.

    This chapter has nothing to do whatsoever with men who call themselves ‘The Pastor’ and command salaries to serve.

    If anyone wishes to use this chapter to justify the Pastor thing… it’s prooftexting at best.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. Avid, I am a full time follower of Jesus Christ with 17 years experience.

    Am I qualified to offer guidance, teach and/or provide counsel?

    Or do I need to presume myself to be gifted as a ‘Pastor’ and then command a following and people to subsidise my religious adventures? “In the ministry”.

    What rot.

    We are all called to serve. The word ministry simply means service. It’s not a special ‘thing’ for a special breed of believers who lack humility and command special status as God’s special chosen ones.

    Religious leaders today are the modern day Pharisee.

    Who is Diotrophes in the New Testament?

    What makes him special?

    He wanted the preeminence among them.

    Sound familiar?

    Who has the preeminence amongst the people of God today?

    Jesus?

    No.

    It’s the Special One who calls himself The Pastor.

    Avid…

    The word Pastor is the same Greek word as Shepherd in the New Testament.

    You would do well to look up every single reference to Shepherd and ask this question:

    “Who is the Shepherd/Pastor in the New Testament?”.

    I’ll give you a head start…

    His name starts with J.

    And regarding the Doctor with years of experience.

    If I have need of an elder for counsel… I go to my other half’s father. He is a godly older man and he is elder to me.

    I don’t need a salaried religious professional for wise and godly counsel.

    Liked by 1 person

  74. Avid, when believers read Ephesians and see “he gave some apostle, evangelists, pastors and teachers…” they think of the guy on TV who is a salaried religious professional.

    They think of the guy who calls himself Dr Professor of Theology who teaches at a Seminary.

    They think of people who hold seminars and charge money for delegates to come and have their ears tickled.

    But I suspect Paul was simply saying…

    “He (God) gave some gifts to shepherd and guide and teach and proclaim the good news”.

    Nothing to do with men giving themselves a title and elevating themselves to a status of Leader.

    No.

    I’ve been preaching Christ for years. I led kids to jesus at age 14.

    I did the work of an evangelist.

    Am I am Evangelist then?

    Should I command money to keep doing it?

    Should I start a website and proclaim myself as an Evangelist?

    Or should I keep my head down and keep preaching Christ as God has gifted me to do?

    Do you think God is impressed by men and women giving themselves religious titles and commanding money to serve the brethren when many of us are doing it for free?

    And if we are doing it for free and are convinced by the Holy Spirit this is God’s way…

    Who are those doing it for “filthy lucre?”

    Who is left?

    Who works for filthy lucre? Making merchandise of the sheep of God?

    Who is left?

    If it’s not me and you… who is making money off this work?

    😊👍

    Liked by 1 person

  75. Avid Reader,

    [Regarding Doctors] >>>What’s wrong with them having a title or getting paid for the work they do?<<<

    Huh? What’s this have to do with Doctors? Of course that’s okay. We’re critiquing making spiritual gifts into religious titles and professions.

    Mwcamp, are you saying that it’s ok for pastors to receive a salary but if they teach tithing—that automatically makes them a wolf?<<<

    If they teach tithing to pay church salaries as commanded by God, yes. If they teach tithing as optional and voluntary to pay for a modern system of running an institution, no.

    Of course, there’s no place for high pressure sermons guilting people into giving large sums. But are you saying that the very act of teaching tithing itself is unfairly pressuring people?<<<

    As above, only if they teach it as a commandment of God that you must tithe to pay for church salaries and expenses and ministries or else you are disobeying God and the Word. That is a false teaching.

    Jesus taught us the NT model of those who preach the Gospel receiving their living from it.<<<

    Passages like I Cor. 9 are talking about itinerant workers who deserve to get paid by those whom they serve, which Paul incidentally, refused to accept such payment. This is not a foundation for a religious system of professional clergy paid by supposed tithes commanded in scripture.

    Your examples of workers getting paid or supported by others is fine. It is but one model of voluntary giving, which Paul taught. But it does not support a Professional Class of religious occupations in an institutional church.

    Like

  76. Amos,

    Thank you for reposting the full previous comment. That was very helpful.

    Let’s see. First Amos says she’s not calling pastors wolves for teaching the concept of tithing. Then she reposts the full comment where she does call pastors wolves. I’m confused. Which is it?

    Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing? That’s a yes or no question.

    Like

  77. Salty – if elders were simply older people in the church, there would be little need for them to be appointed to a role requiring certain qualifications, mostly character.

    Amos’ aversion to being subject to any kind of pastor runs into the buffers in 1 Peter 5 v 1 to 5. Jesus is the Chief Shepherd it is true, but he carries out this role using elders as under shepherds if you like. They are to ‘tend’ the flock – literally ‘shepherd’ the flock. And like it or not, the younger are to be subject to such men.

    You don’t have to be fulltime to do this; conversely, someone who is employed by a church to carry out this function is not automatically a false pastor. It’s not always possible to pastor and carry out a fulltime job of work. You can only judge on a case by case basis.

    I had a ‘mentor’ who did the job of pastor without the title. Later on he went into the ordained ministry of the Church of England. He certainly didn’t cease to be pastor, someone tending the flock, just because of his ordination. Ordination neither creates nor disqualifies someone from being a pastor.

    Like

  78. Meanwhile, one of the wolves who is the subject of this thread is gathering a new flock of naive sheep.

    What can we do about this? How can we “Defend The Sheep” in Ft. Myers, Florida?

    Like

  79. KAS, if you’ve never done a word search on the word Elder in the New Testament then I encourage you do so. The word simply refers to an older person by age.

    In regards to ‘appointing elders in every city’… the passage is quite simply stating to identify godly OLDER mature believers for the purpose of oversight and counsel.

    I can think of many elders in my life who fit this description and not one has a seminary degree not a religious title of The Pastor.

    Considering there are female elders identified in the New Testament it’s pretty clear it simply means ELDER.

    Fancy that.

    Elder means elder.

    Than what?

    That which is younger, perhaps?

    Please do a word study.

    Elders in indigenous communities are simply older folk used as counsellors and guides. Same thing.

    Nothing to do with smells, bells and theological seminaries.

    Me thinketh elders exist all over the place and theyr likely not the ones with the religious titles and salaries.

    God is not an idiot.

    He knows what his people need. If people feel a calling to a higher religious purpose (which involves accolades, a title and the illusion of spirituality) then I’d be questioning whether or not that person is gifted to serve in such a capacity or simply has a humility problem.

    If you want to serve the sheep of Jesus it’s very possible to do so without a title and salary.

    Been doing it for years.

    Burn down the institutions

    Liked by 1 person

  80. KAS, think about it this way…

    If Christians in the first and second centuries fellowshipped in their homes and not in purpose built facilities like we have today…

    How would the godly mature elders function?

    If they didn’t have salaries and physical office buildings is it at all possible they were just normal believers who existed and were sought out for counsel as required.

    There’s a big difference between the elders we see who function in indigenous communities and the salaried religious professionals who call themselves pastors/elders today.

    Huge difference.

    Are indigenous elders salaried and given titles and buildings to counsel their folk?

    Like

  81. mwcamp, Amos, and Salty,

    Thank-you for the intense Bible study here. I appreciate the Holy Scriptures taught in context for I personally, have not read a verse that substantiates the role of the pastor as being first and foremost. I don’t read, nor understand that the word “pastor” was used to delegate primal authority amongst the congregations of God’s people. When Jesus specifically said, “it shall not be so amongst you (pertaining to the lording it over of His people,” I believe He meant what He said and taught this to His disciples as following Him was radically different than the religious government of the Pharisees. The disciples and apostles did not come up with a separate religion of their own after Jesus death and resurrection, it was a continuance of the faith that Jesus taught……and He said, “after My departing, ravenous wolves will come in amongst you, deceiving the flock.”

    And it sure didn’t take long for that to happen; immediately, men set themselves up as gods within the ekklesia, or called out ones, thus imitating the governmental template of the nations they lived in. Remember, Christianity is radically different as in the “priesthood of believers,” not the presidents (pastors), vice presidents (church boards), secretary of state (the elder board), the parliament (deacons and deaconesses), etc. The governmental hierarchal system is alive and well within the organized church system, effectively “disciplining and destroying those with whom have asked simple questions concerning the Holy Scriptures.”

    Revelation 2:4-6

    “Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of this place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”

    Could this word “Nicolaitans” be applied to the congregations of this day and age? Are we literally witnessing the carnage of the “pastors and church leadership” controlling the laity (Nicolaitan means “conquering the people,” anotherwords “leadership controlling the laity”)????? This is pretty serious to me, for Jesus Himself, reveals to John, “I (Jesus speaking) hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans.”

    In today’s Christian industrial complex, I see the church governments operating in the same exact way as the governments of this world, lording it over as the Gentiles do. It is not radically different, thus we have great sin amongst the self proclaimed leadership as we are witnessing today with the laity worshipping pastors, reverends, priests, bishops, elders, or any other who places the lord it over title upon their being. And instead of Jesus, the Living Christ, being the one and only Mediator between God, the Father, and us, we are now led to believe that we must have pastors, priests, cardinals, bishops, elders, church boards, deacons and deaconesses, prayer chain leaders, praise band leaders, self proclaimed apostles (speaking of the New Apostolic Reformation heretics here), or any other ‘titled and entitled’ leader within the visible church…….as our mediator.

    Jesus specifically said, there is only One Mediator between our Father, and us, and that is through Him. Those who truly serve Him are not nor never will be first as we see on this earth today, but instead, they are last, serving and ministering quietly and in peace, never lording it over anyone, but peacefully persuading others of their faith in Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of souls.

    Salty, yes, Alleluia and Amen! Yes! Yes! Yes! The work of a missionary, an evangelist or any other gifting from God, the Holy Spirit, never required a title, just a humble spirit in loving others to the Lord. Great testimony sister!

    Just sit back and ponder the state of Christianity…..how many are making the big bucks selling crosses, books, T-shirts, cd’s/dvd’s of their “great(?)” sermons, or any other paraphernalia with the Lord’s Name on it??? Or how about that Christian comedian that comes to town, gives a hilarious performance then shares the “gospel” near the end with an alter call too-boot, pocketing a fifteen grand fee on his way out the door, oh, wait a minute, he pocketed more than that because that “famous table near the door was filled to overflowing with his books, tapes, T-shirts, and other junk using the Lord’s name as a selling point” was “selling” like hotcakes!

    Christianity for the most part here in the west, has become big business, which I believe, Jesus never intended it to be for I believe it is taking the Lord’s Name in vain for personal gain, not that Christ may increase, and we may decrease.

    I am reminded of Psalm 23 over and over again where our LORD tells us who He is and what He does for us…..”The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want, He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside still waters. He restoreth my soul; He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.”

    So exactly Who leadeth?

    Liked by 2 people

  82. Avid Reader

    You Write…
    “I’m confused. Which is it?”

    Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing?
    That’s a yes or no question.
    xxxxxxx

    Here is what I believe about MONEY that ALL belongs to God.

    “I encourage believers, often, To Give Freely. – But…
    To ask Jesus first – where to give this MONEY. – Yes??? 🙂

    If Jesus has asked you to give MONEY to pastor Jeff?
    Or anyone who has taken the Title/Postion, pastor/leader/reverend?
    A Title that does NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    If Jesus asks you to give 10%, from your wages, MONEY…
    To pastor Jeff? Or any pastor?

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
    Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
    As a requirement? From the Bible?

    That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
    ”That pastor” is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
    Whether ”That pastor” knows it or NOT.”
    xxxxxxx

    Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
    The wind shall eat up ALL “Thy Pastors,”
    (
    wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds
    have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to
    the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  83. Mwcamp,

    You asked why I used the metaphor of doctors. Here’s why:

    No one gets offended that doctors use the title doctor. No one expects doctors to work all week long as restaurant waiters and then go into the hospital on the weekend in their free time to do complex surgery. That’s because we understand the need for physical healing.

    Preaching the Gospel brings emotional and spiritual healing to the broken. The problem is that we can get so comfortable in our little groups and forget that the heart of God bleeds for the whole world. There’s a lot of emotionally and spiritually broken people who need healing as well. Yet saying that those doing the work of emotional and spiritual healing don’t deserve to use a title and can’t have a salary for their own work— that’s saying that emotional and spiritual needs don’t matter. That’s lightly esteeming the most important thing to the heart of God (spreading the Gospel).

    When Jesus walked the Earth, He worked as a carpenter during the first thirty years of His life. Then He went on the road preaching the Gospel full time, healing the sick and ministering to the broken. That took money to do. Did Jesus have to work full time as a carpenter to pay the bills during His three years of ministry? Nope. We know that there were wealthy women traveling with Jesus, paying the bills so He could focus full time on ministering to those who need it the most. That puts Jesus in the category of professional minister. Does anyone object? Is anyone going to get offended at the idea that Jesus was a professional minister?

    Reality is being denied here. We live in a world that costs money to do anything. We use money to buy food, fill up our gas tanks, help others, etc. We expect a salary for the work we do. Yet we want to stick our heads in the stand and pretend that it doesn’t take resources to spread the Gospel.

    Who do you think is trying to destroy all the resources from spreading the Gospel? NOT God.

    Jesus said to pray for more laborers to go to the Harvest. Why are we trying to hinder them? There’s an insanity in the argument that every single occupation can use a title and receive a reasonable salary for their work but Heaven forbid that those doing the will of the Father like Jesus did could actually have the resources they need to spread the Gospel. How can we get offended at the example that Jesus left us? How can it be wrong to teach tithing when Jesus Himself taught it?

    Like

  84. Avid Reader

    “Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing?”
    xxxxxxx

    Please explain…
    What do ”you” mean when you say, ”teaching tithing?”

    How do “you” ”teach tithing?”

    How does “The Bible,” ”teach tithing?”

    Did any of His Disciples tithe?
    According to “your teaching?”
    Which ones?

    Did any of His Disciples give MONEY? 10%? of wages? as a tithe?
    To a church?

    Thanks

    Like

  85. Dear Amos, precious Amos,

    You are so correct dear brother! As a farmer/agriculturalist myself, the tithe was primarily the fruits of agriculture as well as sharing the spoils of war – ie., conquering other peoples/nations. The tithe was never instituted from a man or woman’s wages and was never taught as a doctrine in earning one’s acceptance into the Kingdom of God.

    Men have added their own doctrines as a way and a means of syphoning money/mammon for their own agendas……after all, don’t most churches need that “big screen and big band drums” nowadays to be “relevant?”

    Liked by 1 person

  86. KAS

    You write @ OCTOBER 9, 2017 @ 1:56 PM
    About “1 Peter 5 v 1 to 5.”

    “And like it or not, the younger are to be subject to such men.”
    xxxxxxx

    NOPE…
    I do NOT like ”IT” 🙂

    Seems you did NOT read the whole verse in 1 Pet 5:5. 🙂
    Or, left part of it out on purpose. Yes? — My… My… Tsk… Tsk…

    Seems someone has sub-tracked,” from the scriptures. Oy Vey!!! 😦

    Here is the whole verse…

    1 Pet 5:5 NKJV
    Likewise you younger people,
    ”submit” yourselves to your elders.
    Yes, ALL of you be **”submissive” to one another,**
    and be clothed with humility,
    for“God resists the proud,
    But gives grace to the humble.”

    Seems, ”submit,” and ”submissive,” are the same Greek word.

    Seems, WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Kings and Priests…
    His Servants, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Church, His Friends…

    Are to ”submit,” one to another…

    Eph 5:21 KJV
    ”Submitting yourselves” one to another in the fear of God.

    1 Pet 5:5 NKJV
    Yes, ALL of you be **”submissive” to one another,**
    xxxxxxx

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds
    have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to
    the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  87. KAS

    Yes, ALL of you be ”submissive” to one another,
    and be clothed with humility,
    for God resists the proud,
    But gives grace to the humble.

    Hmmm?
    Clothed with Humility?
    Dictionary – “a modest or low view of one’s own importance”

    Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/leader/reverends???
    Who have taken “Titles,” that do NOT exist in the Bible?
    For one of “His Disciples?”

    Who are ”Clothed with Humility?”

    Having ”a modest or low view of THEIR OWN importance?”
    xxxxxxx

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

    Like

  88. KAS

    You write @ OCTOBER 9, 2017 @ 1:56 PM

    “ Jesus is the Chief Shepherd it is true,
    but he carries out this role using elders
    as “under shepherds” if you like.”

    NOPE…
    I do NOT like…

    In the Bible
    There are NO under-shepherds” mentioned.

    Someone has added “under-shepherds” to the scriptures.

    My… My… Tsk… Tsk…

    Like

  89. This conversation has reached the place where it sounds like most of you agree on the concept of supporting those taking the gospel to the nations. What would happen if each of us gave ten percent to whoever you feel is doing the work of the ministry around the world?

    Then more people could go to the mission field. More work would get done.

    What happens if we don’t?

    The gospel is hindered.

    Why is there so much resistance to the most important thing on God’s heart?

    Like

  90. Avid Reader

    I’m-a-thinkn,when you say ”Tithing.”

    And, the Bible says, ”Tithing.”

    It just ain’t da sam ting.

    You ask…

    “Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing?”
    xxxxxxx

    Please explain…
    What do ”you” mean when you say, ”teaching tithing?”

    How do “you” ”teach tithing?”

    How does “The Bible,” ”teach tithing?”

    Did any of His Disciples tithe?
    According to “your teaching?”
    Which ones?

    Did any of His Disciples give MONEY?
    10%? of wages? as a tithe?
    To a church?

    Thanks

    Like

  91. KAS

    You write @ OCTOBER 9, 2017 @ 1:56 PM
    “Salty – if elders were simply older people in the church,
    there would be little need for them to be appointed to a role
    requiring certain qualifications, mostly character.”

    NOPE…
    Your reasoning is faulty…

    Sounds to me like…
    You do NOT know what those ”qualifications” are.
    Like most congregations today, who are Hiring a pastor/elder/overseer.

    Like Tulians and Driscols congregations…
    They Certainly do NOT know those ”qualifications.” 😉

    Hmmm?
    Did any congregations in the Bible Hire a pastor/elder/overseer?
    Oh… Nevermind… whatever…

    And, if you do know those ”qualifications.”
    Like most pastor/elder/overseers, who know them…
    You will most likly ”Ignore” and ”Twist,” those ”qualifications.”
    xxxxxxx

    Do you ”KNOW” the 17+, tuff Qualifications?**
    Found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?
    xxxxxxx

    Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers???

    Who meet the 17+, very, very, tuff Qualifications?
    Found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Like

  92. Amos, you are still going around in circles to avoid the question.

    So I ask again——is Amos making a blanket statement called pastors wolves if they teach that according to the Bible we have a responsibility to contribute (towards whoever you feel is taking the Gospel to the world) with at least 10% of our increase?

    That’s a yes or no question.

    Like

  93. Kas – Here’s just the first Qualification in Titus.
    That most pastor/elder/overseers ”Ignore,” or ”Twist.”

    1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be BLAMELESS, the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop 1 – “Must Be” BLAMELESS,
    as the steward of God; NOT self willed, NOT soon angry,
    NOT given to wine, NO striker, NOT given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober,
    2 – JUST, 3 – HOLY, temperate;

    1 – Must Be
    Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    This must be is the same Greek word.
    You must be born again. Jn 3:7
    Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?

    1 – BLAMELESS
    Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    How many, pastor/leader/reverends, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering this one qualification,
    can see themselves as **BLAMELESS,* without fault, innocent, and thus qualify to be an elder/overseer?

    And if you can see yourself as BLAMELESS?
    Is that pride? And NO longer without fault? 🙂

    The Bible talks about elder/overseers.
    And Qualifications for elder/overseers.
    Can you have one without the other? NOPE…
    xxxxxxx

    Do your pastors/elders/overseers Qualify??? Oy Vey!!!
    Will you ask them if they are BLAMELESS?
    Without fault, innocent, guiltless?
    That should be fun?

    If a pastor/elder/overseer does NOT Qualify???

    Will they remove themselves?

    And be a good example to the Flock?

    Like

  94. Amos,

    Why would God give us a list of qualifications for leaders if there’s no one called by God to be a pastor, teacher, evangelist etc.?

    These are callings not thrones. The Bible makes it clear that pastors are NOT to lord over the flock but to tend to their spiritual needs. Why would God say that if no one is called by God to be a pastor?

    And I’m still asking if Amos is making a blanket statement calling pastors wolves for teaching the concept of giving at least 10% of our increase (however you want to define increase) towards whoever you feel is taking the Gospel to the nations?

    Like

  95. KAS – Here are two more “Qualifications” found in Titus…
    That most pastor/leader/elder/overseers, “Ignore,” or “Twist.”

    2 – JUST
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
    1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
    1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
    who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
    1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
    1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
    is wholly conformed to the will of God,

    3 – HOLY
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
    xxxxxxx

    Now that’s three tough Qualifications for
    “pastor/leader/elder/overseer” – Yes?
    1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
    2 – JUST. 3 – HOLY.
    xxxxxxxx

    KAS – Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers?
    Who meet just these three qualifications?

    Will you ask **”Your pastor/elder/overseers? If they Qualify??

    If they are,
    1 – BLAMELESS. – without fault, innocent.
    2 – JUST. – ighteous, observing divine laws.
    3 – HOLY. – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.

    Take a video for me when you ask them.
    I’d like to see the look on their faces.
    xxxxxxx

    What should a pastor/elder/overseer do?
    What should “Your,” pastor/elder/overseer do?
    When they do NOT Qualify?
    xxxxxxx

    I’m-a-thinkn…
    They should Go Away…
    And be a good example to the Flock.

    Yes?
    xxxxxxx

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high,
    yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud,
    nor such as turn aside to lies.

    Like

  96. Avid Reader – You ask @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 12:15 PM

    “Why would God give us a list of qualifications for leaders
    if there’s no one called by God to be a pastor, teacher, evangelist etc.?”
    xxxxxxx

    Wrong question…

    Better question…

    If Paul, and most likely Jesus?
    Gave these 17+ very tuff Qualifications for elder/overseer?

    Why do pastor/elder/overseers take this “Position?”
    They do NOT Qualify for???
    xxxxxxxx

    Aivd – Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers?
    Who meet just these three qualifications?
    I just left on this thread?

    Will you ask **”Your pastor/elder/overseers? If they Qualify??

    If they are…
    1 – BLAMELESS. – without fault, innocent.
    2 – JUST. – ighteous, observing divine laws.
    3 – HOLY. – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.

    Take a video for me when you ask them.
    I’d like to see the look on their faces.

    And be sure to ask them face to face…

    If they do NOT like you asking – Run…
    Run for the hills…

    Like

  97. Avid Reader,
    I questioned your use of Doctor because we were talking about professional Religious Workers who (1) use religious titles/offices in churches and ministry and (2) who argue they are worthy of wages through tithing. That is a religious system that I have found to be extremely problematic and very different from traditional professions. Don’t try to mix them up.

    There is no problem with any profession that provides real services for people who pay for those services, or even who get a salary through donations to a nonprofit, and provide free or subsidized services. The problem is making religion into a business. And when religiously-titled leaders claim authority (hierarchy) over members.

    I know a thing or two about this. I was a missionary for 7 years raising support similar to what you described. There’s nothing wrong with getting support through voluntary donations to do the work of physical or spiritual healing. Yes, Jesus got such support, but from voluntary giving. Yes, the world needs more workers who can heal and help people and those workers should get a salary through some means. That reality is not being denied.

    The problem is you are assuming what I described is the same as “spreading the Gospel” and getting paid through “tithing that Jesus himself taught.” No, they are not the same. (I assume we would disagree on how one defines the “Gospel.” But that’s another topic.) Jesus and Paul did not teach tithing to an institutional church, but rather voluntary, optional giving and being “released from the law.” As I said before, it’s okay to voluntarily support people in work, ministry, and spiritual healing. The problem is making a whole legalistic system around tithing to the modern, institutional church and then tell people it is mandatory to tithe to the church as a matter of obedience to God. Get it? Voluntary is fine, mandatory is not.

    Liked by 1 person

  98. Avid Reader – You ask @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 12:15 PM

    “Why would God give us a list of qualifications…”

    Could the list of qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus, be…
    A Test of someone’s “Integrity?”

    God does test and prove “His People” A Lot in the scriptures. Yes?
    Deut 8:2 NKJV, Gen 22:1 NKJV, Psalm 66:10-12 NKJV, Psalm 26:2 NKJV. etc.

    Why would someone assume the role of pastor/elder/overseer…
    And say they are a pastor/elder/overseer…
    If they know they do NOT qualify to be an pastor/elder/overseer?”

    Could it be a lack of “Integrity?”

    What would you call someone, who called them self a pastor/overseer?
    And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a pastor/overseer?

    What would you call a medical Doctor, who said they were a Doctor?
    And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a medical Doctor?

    What would you call a Lawyer, who said they were a Lawyer?
    And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a Lawyer?

    Would you recommend a Doctor or a Lawyer to a friend?
    If you knew they did NOT qualify to be a Doctor or a Lawyer?

    Or, would you warn your friend? – They do NOT Qualify?
    Would you take the time to warn the Doctor? The Lawyer?
    That you know – They do NOT qualify?

    Wouldn’t it be dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on…
    A Doctor, or a Lawyer who does NOT qualify?

    In my experience…
    It is dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on
    pastor/elder/overseers who do NOT qualify.

    Maybe that’s why “The Corrupt Religious System” of today…
    is in such a mess and folks are leaving in droves…
    pastor/elder/overseers – who do NOT qualify?

    The Bible warns us, a lot – About False apostles, many False prophets,
    False teachers, False Christ’s’, False anointed one’s, etc..

    To trust No man. To not trust in princes. Let no man deceive you.
    And The list goes on…

    And lot’s of scriptures about trusting and following Jesus.

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds
    have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to
    the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  99. Salty – Whilst I am not against a ministry by people who have given up ‘secular’ work, I’m very much inclined to see every member ministry as the norm, and for ever Paul that Jesus calls he calls a boat load of ‘fishermen’ to do his work. That is, ordinary bog-standard believers whom he gradually equips.

    I don’t think protestantism ever quite got free of the old Catholic idea of the priest, a person in charge who can become an intermediary between ordinary believers and God. Think of some of the followers of celebrity ministers/pastors/apostles who hang on their every word and read every book, purchased at every conference.

    Avid Reader – I think Amos is himself(?) the strongest argument against the position he is taking.

    Like

  100. KAS

    You could be correct…
    “Amos is himself(?) the strongest argument against the position he is taking.”

    Was wondering – Which position are you talken bout?

    I gots lots of positions… 🙂

    Like

  101. Well thought Amos was a her so please let us know if you want us to use himself or herself or some other pronoun when saying Amos ——(herself?)

    Like

  102. Avid Reader – it’s possible to track down an A. Amos Love on blogger who is male. I assume it’s the same one.

    Amos turned up at Fred Butler’s blog in 2012, and was eventually banned for repetition and obviously no desire actually to discuss anything. Fred eventually found Amos had been cutting and pasting his comments going back to 2009. I also found his comments above verbatim in the intervening period (without wasting too much time on it).

    I don’t altogether disagree with Amos. There is, however, something very obviously missing.

    You said above to Amos “You’re still going in circles to deflect from the question. I’m still asking you”. I think you might have along wait for an answer that isn’t {{{{{{ prepackaged }}}}}} !

    Like

  103. Mwcamp,

    We probably do have the same definition of preaching the Gospel. Jesus gave the definition in Luke 4:18(KJV):

    “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.”

    Interesting how Jesus believed that healing the broken hearted was a very important part of preaching the Gospel.

    Anyway, Mwcamp, that’s cool that you served on the missions field. We would love to hear some of your experiences, if you feel comfortable sharing them. However, I’m surprised that after several years of being on the front lines of ministry, seeing the desperate needs out there, why would you fight against the very way that God has ordained for providing more resources to spreading the Gospel? Isn’t more needed, not less?

    Each of us matters in the overall plan of God. It matters whether we bury our heads in the sand, or obey the words of Christ on tithing. If each of us gave 10% of our increase to whoever we feel is doing the real work of spreading the Gospel, more work would be done. More people would be reached. It’s really that simple.

    Why is there still so much resistance to the most important thing to God’s heart? Tithing is the command of Christ in the NT. Anyone who tells you differently is taking a scissor and cutting the words of Christ right out of the NT.

    Liked by 1 person

  104. KAS,

    Thanks for the info. That makes a lot of sense. I don’t understand Amos. He keeps talking in circles, making excuses, and avoiding my questions. He loves to make his case from OT verses but won’t listen to the heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10 (NASB):

    “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, “How have we robbed You?” In tithes and offerings….. Bring the WHOLE tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house.”

    Before anyone starts complaining about that being OT—look at all the OT verses Amos has quoted to make his case! Plus Jesus confirmed this in the NT. We’ve covered those verses previously.

    Anyway, Amos is still hiding from my question on wolves so we will look for the answer by checking his comments.

    On 10-9-17 at 7:45AM, Amos wrote:
    “If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to Tithe…… That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”

    Amos can deny his own words all he wants but that’s exactly what he said.

    I rest my case.

    Time to fade back into the shadows. Everyone, thanks for a really fun discussion.

    Nite. Nite.

    Like

  105. KAS

    You’re such a Silly Dilly…

    You mention Fred Butler…
    HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!

    Do you know who Fred Butler works for…

    Pastor John MacArthur…
    HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!

    Fred Butler is part of an ”Ultra-Authoritarian Corrupt Religious System.”

    Are you familiar with the ugly disgusting things Fred said…
    About Julie Anne? Julie Anne and her family?
    Fred Butler is a Bully.

    Do some research about that ugly time if you dare. 😦

    Liked by 1 person

  106. KAS

    Of course I cut and paste…
    How many different ways can you ask the same questions? 🙂

    Of course Fred Butler banned me…
    Fred is a Bully, and did NOT like the questions. 🙂
    HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!

    How many different ways can you post?
    ”The Qualifications,” from the Bible?
    For pastor/elder/overseer? 😉

    By the way “The Qualifications” you brought up…

    Then you refused to acknowledge, or answer, the questions…

    Yup – those questions about “The Qualifications” in the Bible…
    Are NOT very popular with pastor/elder/overseers today. 😉
    Who do NOT Qualify. 😉
    xxxxxxx

    Maybe you can help?
    I know I’ve asked ”you” these questions before about “Qualifications.”
    And most are {{{{{{ prepackaged }}}}}
    xxxxxxx

    Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers???

    Who meet the 17+, very, very, tuff Qualifications?
    Found in 1 Tim 3, and Titus?
    xxxxxxx

    Now that’s three tough Qualifications for
    “pastor/leader/elder/overseer” – Yes?
    1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
    2 – JUST. 3 – HOLY.
    xxxxxxxx

    KAS – Do you know many? any? pastor/elder/overseers?
    Who meet just these three qualifications?

    Will you ask **”Your pastor/elder/overseers? If they Qualify???

    If they are,
    1 – BLAMELESS. – without fault, innocent.
    2 – JUST. – Righteous, observing divine laws.
    3 – HOLY. – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.

    Take a video for me when you ask them.
    I’d like to see the look on their faces.
    xxxxxxx

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Like

  107. Avid Reader

    You write @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 8:22 PM

    “Anyway, Amos is still hiding from my question on wolves
    so we will look for the answer by checking his comments.

    On 10-9-17 at 7:45AM, Amos wrote:
    “If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to Tithe…… That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”

    Amos can deny his own words all he wants
    but ”that’s exactly” what he said.”
    xxxxxxx

    NOPE…
    I NEVER said that…
    I do NOT deny what I said.

    That is NOT ”exactly” what I said.

    That is a ”false statement.”

    WOW – You just made another ”false statement.”

    My… My… Tsk… Tsk…
    xxxxxxx

    Here is ”exactly” what I wrote…
    fir yur readin pleasure…

    I have NO problem with any believer giving MONEY.
    Giving MONEY to a ministry… Giving MONEY to people…

    I encourage believers, often, To Give Freely. – But…
    To ask Jesus first – where to give this MONEY. – Yes??? 😉

    If Jesus has asked you to give MONEY to pastor Jeff?
    Or anyone who has taken the Title/Postion, pastor/leader/reverend?
    A Title that does NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    If Jesus asks you to give 10%, from your wages, MONEY
    To pastor Jeff? Or any pastor?

    Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.

    But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
    Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
    As a requirement? From the Bible?

    That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
    That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
    Whether That pastor knows it or NOT.

    That is what “Today’s Corrupt Religious System” often teaches. 😉
    xxxxxxx

    Ask me again and I’ll tell you the same… 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  108. Avid Reader,
    Tithing is not a command of Christ. To get that it is, you must read the NT in a very literalist way in which any phrase can be interpreted out of historical context and assumed to be universally applicable. That is an irresponsible way of reading the Bible. Telling the truth about tithing is NOT resisting things that are on God’s heart. I find that very manipulating, trying to lay guilt on people. You seem to miss whatever I or Amos say and then spout back something that we did not say. Supporting people to spread the good news of Jesus and demonstrate his love ethic is good… but only if one is asking for voluntary donations to a person or nonprofit or toward a grant. Mandatory tithing is not biblical. Plus, one does not need to be salaried through donations to spread God’s love. Spreading God’s love is no dependent on church’s sending missionaries. God works through many means to reach people.

    If you do a little research, and have an open mind, you might discover what Amos and I are saying is based on sound, historical and biblical study. Here’s one book that I recommend > https://www.amazon.com/Tithing-Low-Realm-Obsolete-Matthew-Narramore-ebook/dp/B00JAJQJ1G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1507735257&sr=8-2&keywords=tithing

    Liked by 1 person

  109. Amos, amazing. We’ve both said it several times in different ways and it doesn’t get through. Teaching required tithing is wrong (and a curse, per the NT) but teaching voluntary giving (not under compulsion as Paul taught) is encouraged.

    Liked by 1 person

  110. “the front lines of ministry”

    Avid, there’s more Christianese.

    What is the front line of ministry?

    You mean service right?

    That we are allllll called to.

    Am I on the ‘front line of ministry’?

    Liked by 1 person

  111. Great Bible study and conversation regarding the tithe. To be released to give freely under Jesus’ Ways is truly liberating brings the soul of every believer, great joy! To know, within the depths of our souls, that we are giving in the Name of Jesus Christ, for His Kingdom, brings us good cheer, fully knowing that we are not giving under compulsion.

    And it is wonderful to give freely to those whom are in great need, sowing God’s love, mercy, grace, and peace into other souls around us. I agree with Avid Reader, it would be enlightening to hear of your missionary experiences, mw camp! It would surely give the Body of Christ, here on Julie Anne’s blog, great hope in building up our faith.

    Also, not to cause another venue of trouble or argument, but I had these thoughts as a youth, pondering the state of Christianity, and it went like this:

    “How come the church goers spent so much time and money on that building big fancy building and all of the icons in it, spent vast amounts of money on the landscaping, tarred parking lots, lights, security cameras, gymnasiums and community centers added on to the temples made with human hands, big screens, state of the art sound systems, libraries filled with books, state of the art kitchens, coffee shops filled with goodies, church buses/vans/cars with their church designer logo on them for advertisement (sure the designer made big bucks off of the ‘church’), etc……………………………………………………………………………………..

    and NOT visit the sick and pray for them or at least bring over a hotdish and visit for awhile to encourage them and build them up, or come along side the struggling single mother raising her children alone, or help out that dad raising his children without a mother, or help out that widow who is growing old and needing younger helping hands to assist with the work, or visiting those with dementia still in their homes suffering loneliness, or

    simply being the hands, feet, and the Word made flesh, Jesus, to people in their homes…….as in believers meeting together in Acts?

    So much time teaching the ‘tithe’ to build up buildings/temples and the junk that goes with it, and neglecting the true Body of Jesus Christ, who worships in spirit and truth, without walls to hinder the work of God, the Holy Spirit.

    I believe the “missionary fields” are wide open here in America; perhaps the greatest missionary field to date!

    How many churches have this on their fancy signs outside of their temples:

    “Pastor: Jesus Christ”

    Liked by 1 person

  112. KAS, Just do a search for “Fred Butler” in the search field on the right side of the blog. Have fun!
    Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know Fred was a Guest of Honour here, but I shall take a look! 🙂

    I am aware of your altercations with him in the past, though not all the details. I’ve mainly read Fred’s blog to see if anyone from the immediate MacArthur stable can in fact be reasonable, unlike some of the more obvious bullies. Bully may be a tad strong, but certainly ‘no loss to the diplomatic corps’. Petulant.

    I’m seriously starting to wonder if the insensitivity and hardness of heart of so many Big Names, coupled with a seeming absence of humility, is an unintended by-product of ‘hardcore’ Calvinism.

    Like

  113. KAS, I wouldn’t call Fred Butler a guest of honor. Anyone whom you can search in my blog’s search field most likely has a history of inappropriate or abusive behavior. I don’t think bully is too strong of a word in his case.

    Liked by 1 person

  114. Avid Reader

    You write @ OCTOBER 10, 2017 @ 8:22 PM…
    “He loves to make his case from OT verses but
    won’t listen to the heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10 (NASB):”

    I’m-a-thinkn, I now understand Malachi 3:8-10…
    Much differently then what ”you” were taught…
    And, what ”I” was taught, and believed…

    You might try Avidly Reading ALL of Malachi…
    Over, and over, and over, again, and again, and…
    Asking Jesus, to help ”you” to understand…
    Like I had to do after leaving “The System.”

    To understand, “Who was Malachi, God, talking to in ALL of Malachi?
    To understand, “Who Robbed God?” In Tithes and Offerings?
    To understand, “Who Robbed this whole nation?”
    To understand, “Who was under a curse?”
    xxxxxxx

    Malachi 3:8-10 KJV
    Will a man rob God? Yet ”ye” have robbed me.

    But *”ye”** say, Wherein have ”we” robbed thee?

    In tithes and offerings.

    *”ye”** are cursed with a curse:

    for *”ye”** have robbed me, even this whole nation.

    Bring *”ye”** all the tithes into the storehouse,

    that there may be ”meat” (Food) in mine house…
    xxxxxxx

    Avid – Haven’t you ever wondered why?

    With all the instructions Paul gave to believers…
    Paul never asked them to tithe? From wages? MONEY?

    The Jerusalem council in Acts 15…
    Never asks the new gentile believers to tithe? From wages? MONEY?

    Neither does Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Timothy, James, or Jesus…
    Ask believers to tithe? From wages? MONEY?

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Liked by 1 person

  115. Amos, you have identified one of the great errors of popular Bible reading. That is, claiming a set of verses, in this case Malachi 3:8-10, comes from the heart of God WITHOUT taking into account (1) the context of those verses in that prophet’s writing (who was he addressing, why? etc.), (2) the historical context of that prophet in time among the people he is writing (how people perceived tithes), and (3) the way Jesus or the early church interpreted the stipulations in that passage (e.g. the Jerusalem council). Quoting a verse or passage without these three elements to inform them and then saying the prophet/writer is commanding the contemporary generation or church is simply irresponsible use (or abuse) of the Bible.

    Like

  116. mwcamp – It’s a long time since I read up on tithing, but I agree with you. As I understand it, there was more than one tithe under the law of Moses, and if your contribution was turned from agricultural produce to money, you had to add a fifth of the value on to it.

    I believe NT believers have been delivered from the law of Moses absolutely, it no longer applies to them except as a guide to right from wrong, and usually incorporated into the NT when it does so. This means Christians are not under any obligation to tithe at all, let alone to a local church. Some of the purposes for which tithes were gathered are covered these days by general taxation. Tax isn’t voluntary, whereas Christian giving is!

    I wish those evangelicals who criticise the church of Rome for having a priesthood, and who deny such a special priesthood applies to believers today would be consistent and refuse to put believers back under the law of Moses when it comes to tithing. It’s obsolete.

    I fear all too often those who do so are only trying to guarantee themselves a secure and overly generous income.

    Liked by 1 person

  117. mwcamp – Avid

    After I left “Today’s Corrupt Religious System,” early 90’s….
    Through much Pain, Tears, and Spiritual Abuse…
    I did my own research on this… err… Strange B. S., called, “The Tithe.”

    Found out, the Abusive pastor/leaders I knew, were teaching…
    Commandments of Men, Traditions of Men, and NOT the Bible.
    I would read all of Malachi, over and over, again and again…
    I wanted to know…

    In Malachi 3:8-10?
    1 – Who was Malachi, God, talking to in Malachi 3:8-10?
    2 – Who Robbed God? In Tithes and Offerings?
    3 – Who Robbed even this whole nation?
    4 – Who was cursed with a curse?

    Then, one day, I see it…

    Malachi 2:1
    And now, O ”ye priests,” this commandment is for you.

    Yup – Best I can figure…

    It was The Priests, The Religious Leaders, Malachi talked to.
    The Priests, Who were Robbing God in Tithes and Offerings.
    The Priests, Who were Robbing even this whole nation.
    The Priests, Who were cursed with a curse.
    For sacrificing blind and lame animals.
    NOT giving God the best.

    NOT the regular folks.
    NOT WE, His Sheep, His Servants, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Friends…

    NOPE…

    You’re NOT likely to hear this from the pulpit… 🙂

    Oh yeah… Strange B. S., stands for…

    Strange Belief Systems… 😉

    Liked by 1 person

  118. mwcamp – Avid

    In Chapter 1, Malachi, God, begins talking to “The Priests.”

    Malachi 1:6-8 KJV
    A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:
    if then I be a father, where is mine honour?
    and if I be a master, where is my fear?
    saith the LORD of hosts unto you,
    O priests, that despise my name.
    And ”ye” (priests) say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
    7 ”ye” (priests) offer polluted bread upon mine altar;
    and ”ye” (priests) say, Wherein have we polluted thee?
    In that ”ye” (priests) say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
    8 And if ”ye” (priests) offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil?
    and if ”ye” (priests) offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?
    offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee,
    or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

    Chapter 2, it’s still the Levitical Priests. And God sends a Curse on them.

    God has a sense of Humor… 🙂
    It kinda sounds like God is giving The Priests another chance…
    To do the right thing… Or, God will send a curse.
    Then, right in the middle, He changes His tune…
    And says, ”yea, I have cursed them already,”

    Malachi 2:1-2 KJV
    And now, O ”ye priests,” this commandment is for you.
    2 If ”ye” (priests) will not hear, and
    if ”ye” (priests) will not lay it to heart,
    to give glory unto my name,
    saith the LORD of hosts,
    I will even send a curse upon you, (priests)
    and I will curse your blessings:
    yea, I have cursed them already,
    because ”ye” (Priests) do not lay it to heart.

    It is still the Levitical priests, who corrupted the covenant of levi.

    Malachi 2:7-8 KJV
    For the priests lips should keep knowledge,
    and they should seek the law at his mouth:
    for ”he” (priests) is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
    8 But ”ye” (priests) are departed out of the way;
    ”ye” (priests) have caused many to stumble at the law;
    ”ye” (priests) have corrupted the covenant of Levi,
    saith the LORD of hosts.

    Like

  119. mwcamp – Avid

    In Chapter 3, It is still the Levitical priests, the sons of Levi.
    who have made the offering of Judah and Jerusalem…
    unpleasant to the Lord.

    Malachi 3:2-4 KJV
    But who may abide the day of HIS coming?
    and who shall stand when HE appeareth?
    for HE is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
    3 And HE shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver:
    and HE shall purify the sons of Levi, (priests)
    and purge them as gold and silver,
    that ”they” (priests) may offer unto the LORD
    an offering in righteousness.
    (Priests were sacrificing blind and lame offerings.)
    4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
    be pleasant unto the LORD,
    as in the days of old, and as in former years.

    It is still the Levitical priests – Who robbed God, in tithes and offerings.”

    Malachi 3:7-9 KJV
    Even from the days of your fathers ”ye” (priests)
    are gone away from mine ordinances,
    (Mal. 2:8 ”ye” (priests) have corrupted the covenant of Levi)
    and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you,
    saith the LORD of hosts.
    But ”ye” (priests) said, Wherein shall we return?
    8 Will a man rob God? Yet ”ye” (priests) have robbed me.
    (Blind and lame offerings.)
    But ”ye” (priests) say, Wherein have we robbed thee?
    (The priests asked similar questions in Mal. 1:6-7)
    In tithes and offerings.
    (The Tithe was always food to eaten or sacrificed.)
    ”ye” (priests) are cursed with a curse:
    for ”ye” (priests) have robbed me,

    even this whole nation.

    In Malachi 3:9…
    Isn’t this the same curse that was on the priests in Mal. 2:2?

    Have the priests robbed God?
    And also robbed, “even this whole nation?”

    Could God NO longer bless the people, “bless Judah and Jerusalem?”
    because of the priests and thus robbing the people?
    “even this whole nation?”

    Malachi 3:4
    Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD.

    When will that be?

    Mal. 3:3
    When the sons of Levi are purged. ( the priests )
    that they (priests) may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
    xxxxxxx

    Best I can figure Malachi 3:8-10, was written for ”the priests.”
    Who were robbing God…

    Like

  120. Who in the world is Fred Butler? Is he someone who deems himself of great importance (being first) within a certain religious venue? Never heard of this individual in my entire life until now. And very grateful I may add!

    I often wonder if those in religious hierarchy are offended, insulted, and downright angry when the Body of Christ doesn’t recognize their names and their importance amongst us. Would this Fred Butler person be able to have faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation if he was one of the lower laity?

    Just wonderin’.

    Like

  121. Fred works for Grace to You. He’s not in any leadership position as far as I know except for leading a class or Bible study. He just happens to be a chief defender of Phil Johnson and John MacArthur (and all people and things related). He has a blog and is very vocal in social media. Because he defends the big guys, he’s gets a free pass to be a bully, like the rest of them.

    Like

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