The Dangerous Teachings of Lori Alexander of The Transformed Wife

Lori Alexander, Depression, Suicide

-by Julie Anne and Kathi

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Lori Alexander (Facebook photo)

Lori Alexander runs a blog and Facebook page called The Transformed Wife. Her Facebook page has over 21,000 followers! She models her ministry using the Titus 2 idea of older women teaching younger women. After 23 years of a difficult marriage, she claims her marriage improved after she applied God’s principles to her life; so she feels qualified to share with her followers how she learned to submit to her husband, and thus, have a happy marriage.

Lori appeals to women who want to be godly and obedient wives, serving their husbands. But as Kathi and I read her articles, we are alarmed by some of her teachings. Some of them put wives in harm’s way. Other teachings minimize serious mental health issues, or attempt to solve them by simply praying.

We are thankful to a reader on our Facebook page that brought to our attention Lori’s recent actions. Lori wrote a post this past week about depression and suicide among women and linked the post to her Facebook page.

We were sent this screenshot which shows a woman stating that she contemplated taking her own life. Lori’s response is to go to the Bible for strength. Thankfully, another reader responded with the advice to seek help immediately through the suicide hotline.

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As of yesterday, Lori has removed the above comments from her Facebook page article.

I (KB) also responded to a woman who laments over being asked by her doctor if she is feeling any depression. Thank goodness this woman has a doctor who cares! Sometimes it only takes asking a person, “How are you?” to save a life.

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Now my comment to this woman has been removed from Lori’s Facebook page.

This shows the true heart of Lori through her actions of removing critical information that could help save someone’s life. Lori also can’t seem to handle the fact that doctors play an essential role in mental health care.

It’s important to note that Lori is often challenged by reasonable people, encouraging proper medical or mental health care. Lori, or her husband, Ken, usually delete these comments, so all you end up seeing are accolades of her like-minded followers who pat her on the back telling her how right she is. Her blog and Facebook page is solely: Lori’s way or the highway. She does not accept challenge or corrective criticism. She and her husband believe that anyone who counters her is obviously not godly and dismissed as being the work of Satan.

Lori Alexander is treading in dangerous territory. Her words could lead someone to suicide if their mental health issues don’t clear up by her prescription of prayer and reading Scripture. She treats depression/suicide as a sin, when it could be the result of a medical condition, abuse, PTSD, etc.

If there is anyone reading here today that is a follower of Lori, we urge you to walk away from her. Her teachings are dangerous and she cares more about her ideology than people in need of help.

If you are in need of any help in regard to domestic violence, spiritual abuse, or mental health issues, we are here for you. Please reach out. You will find a caring community that cares more about you as a person than any ideology that you should follow.

92 comments on “The Dangerous Teachings of Lori Alexander of The Transformed Wife

  1. I don’t understand how that woman can say she’s not depressed because she has friends and a fiancé. Does she think being depressed means having no relationships? It’s really insulting.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. Sarah, don’t be surprised with that kind of thinking from readers at that site. Lori only perpetuates the problem of misinforming people about what real depression is. That is why we need to combat this site and Lori’s teachings with the truth.

    It is okay for Christians to seek medical help and mental health help when they are depressed. It is okay to take meds for depression. It doesn’t make anyone less of a Christian. It is using what we have available in the medical field to get better. When I used to be on anti-depressants (when I was suffering from PTSD), I only took the meds until my symptoms subsided and was getting counseling. I haven’t been on anti-depressants since (it’s been close to 30 years now).

    Liked by 5 people

  3. Lori needs to stop talking about this, as she clearly knows nothing. Imagine deleting the suicide hotline number! Outrageous. They are certainly going to be a thousand times more helpful and practical than Lori’s just read the bible brush-off.

    Sarah, I completely agree with you! Genevieve does not understand depression. (maybe that’s why she loves Lori so much, peas in a pod).

    Some people get psychotic depression, and there is no way that will go away without some serious medical help.

    Liked by 5 people

  4. Lori Alexander is a dangerous person that comes in the guise of a “teacher”. She considers herself to be a Godly older woman (her own far-too-often used words), but she’s actually a bitter gossip and a harsh, unloving person.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. My mom was bipolar. She needed medicines to keep her stable. She was a Christian and knew her Bible. But, when her thoughts came so fast that it overwhelmed her, she would just shut down. She needed medical care. It is okay to take medicine, get counseling, and get help for real life stuff (meals, housekeeping, etc) while getting help. It is okay to be sad after a traumatic event, too, even if you are a Christian.

    Liked by 7 people

  6. Thank you for this post. It is so important to combat the dangerous misinformation that Lori (and husband Ken) Alexander put out.

    Liked by 5 people

  7. I’ve been taking medication for over 25 years. Without it, I’d be dead already.

    My parents still lie and gaslight about what they did to me and my siblings. My father’s entire relationship with his current girlfriend is based on a lie. He tells her they “spanked us” and he regrets it. No dad, you didn’t spank us. You beat us with thick heavy dowel rods all over our bodies until we were bruised and bloodied. You slapped us, punched us, kicked us, screamed and bellowed and raged and frothed at us. You put us in chokeholds, wrapped your hands around our necks and shook us. A couple of times you even strangled me.

    Is it any wonder I need medication? Every day that goes by I’m supposed to pretend like none of it ever happened. My dad says that it’s all “in the past,” gets irritated and asks when I’m going to let it go. When indeed.

    [Mod note: JA removed some colorful language, but I truly get it, Dash!! ~ja]

    Liked by 5 people

  8. This kind of “advice ” is extremely dangerous! She is not a trained professional and needs to shut her mouth! I’ve been in that very dark place, more times than I would like to admit. Being told to just read the Bible in addition to all the other meaningless platitudes just made me feel worse. There’s nothing wrong with reaching out for professional help. In fact, it’s vitally important that you do it and not worry about what anyone else thinks. It’s nothing to be ashamed of!!

    Liked by 6 people

  9. Isn’t stuff like this pretty common in conservative/reformed/fundamentalist/Evangelical circles? I am guessing that is her background.

    On the way home, I decided to listened to a sermon podcast by John MacArthur on “contentment.” So happened that it was a topic that had come up in my church group and among friends at the time, so I thought what could possibly go wrong with an innocuous topic like contentment?

    Everything went wrong. Some of his main points were:

    It is a SIN not to be content. Oh geez, not only do I have to watch out for relentless lustful thoughts, but the feelings of non-contentment? How do I track that to make sure I am not sinning in that area? Is there an app for that? How content am I right now? How sinful am I in that area?
    Do not be content with your spiritual life. Oh okay. He could have said not to be complacent about it, but do not be content? So constantly feel bad about where I am spiritually and that is the way to practice contentment?
    Put others first and yourself last. Yet another impossible to reach goal which I am sure I am failing badly.

    Didn’t think anyone could weaponize the beautiful gift of contentment as a tool of condemnation and judgment, but you can count on John MacArthur to pull that off.

    Lori Alexander ‘s blog has a whole category of posts devoted to the writings of Charles Spurgeon. He suffered from chronic depression for years.

    Liked by 7 people

  10. I haven’t even been strangled by those who claim to love me, and Anglo-Saxon verbiage still comes to my mind when I think of some things I’ve been through. Hugs to ya, Dash.

    One interesting point of reference is that when I took a course in nouthetic counseling about 18 years back, one of the things that people made VERY SURE to mention was that if you’re on meds, don’t just go off them, because whatever the arguments for and against them, they do change your body chemistry and how you think. So I hope at least that Alexander’s advice goes well beyond “the average” among the fundagelical churches I inhabit. In fact, I’m pretty sure it does, as I recently got to know a middle aged woman who had to drop hours at work because of anxiety syndrome–that was no big deal.

    Like

  11. No-one will ever take away my medication! How I wish Lori would shut up.

    I am still so pissed off that my Xcultchurch railed against anti-depressents, anxiety, depression and ungodly psychology. Oh the darkness I could have saved myself & my family from, if only, I had worked with a professional therapist & been prescribed medication earlier. I could write a book here.

    Dash, your story breaks my heart & you come to mind often. Actually yesterday I had a few words with God on your behalf. Continue to take care of yourself, you are a remarkable man.

    Liked by 5 people

  12. Dash – There’s no way you’ll ever “let it go.” It’s ingrained in your brain. That’s what happens to the brain when it experiences trauma. If Lori and the likes would merely take some time to read reputable research on how trauma affects the brain she wouldn’t be so calloused to offering helpline numbers.

    Liked by 7 people

  13. Let’s not forget that Lori thinks that sadness and depression are Satanic. I guess because it’s of Satan no earthly doctor or counselor could ever help a person.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Thank you for this post. I’ve never heard of ‘Lori’ before but my difficult marriage of four decades has had me very much influenced by the “go to the Bible for everything” crowd.
    I am devoted to my Lord and Savior. — When a woman cries out she needs Christ-honoring individuals to HELP HER, not turn the pages to another passage from the Scriptures.
    I know the Scriptures and my Lord would want the captives set free!

    Liked by 2 people


  15. Lori has all kinds of free “medical” advice in her videos. I believe healthy eating, but most of her stuff doesn’t make any sense to me at all.I shudder think that anyone would take her advice on anything,

    Like

  16. Re:

    Lori Alexander runs a blog and Facebook page called The Transformed Wife. Her Facebook page has over 21,000 followers! She models her ministry using the Titus 2 idea of older women teaching younger women. After 23 years of a difficult marriage, she claims her marriage improved after she applied God’s principles to her life; so she feels qualified to share with her followers how she learned to submit to her husband, and thus, have a happy marriage.

    Hunh. Well, if being between the ages of 40 – 50 would make me an older woman, here’s my advice to any younger women (or to anyone of any age).

    If you are dealing with a mental health problem, whether it’s depression or anxiety or whatever it may be, prayer alone or other spiritual means will usually not cure it.

    For many years, I had depression (I was diagnosed with it at a young age by a psychiatrist). I also thought of suicide at times, the depression was so bad.

    (I wrote about my experiences with depression and how I escaped it here on SSB in a previous thread; here is a link to _Part 1_, and Part 2 is two posts below part 1 of that thread)

    For years, I felt very guilty taking anti-depressant medications and seeing psychologists and psychiatrists, because I worried it meant I lacked faith in God.

    I’d also go back and read parts of the Bible again and see where someone prayed for a healing, and God supernaturally healed the person, and I would think, maybe if I just prayed more or harder or longer that God would heal me supernaturally as well.

    Then I’d come across Christian literature my mother had around the house, or I’d watch sermons on TV, where the Christian preachers or authors would shame the reader for not relying on faith alone to be cured of depression.

    So, I would spend a few years going off and on anti-depressant medications.

    In the late 1990s and early 2000s, I also did a lot of lurking at Christian forums, where I saw many other Christians with depression say they tried everything (including prayer, Bible reading, etc, the sort of stuff Lori Alexander is advising), and it was not alleviating their depression, either.

    All I can say is that “prayer alone,” Bible reading alone, or any of the other ‘spiritual-only’ solutions Christians such as Lori Alexander prescribe, don’t work for most people.

    Okay, so Lori had a difficult marriage. Has Lori ever actually suffered from long term, clinical depression or from anxiety, though? (I have, and I know what pure hell it is.)

    You said:

    Lori Alexander is treading in dangerous territory. Her words could lead someone to suicide if their mental health issues don’t clear up by her prescription of prayer and reading Scripture. She treats depression/suicide as a sin, when it could be the result of a medical condition, abuse, PTSD, etc.

    I completely agree and am deeply appalled at how sloppily she’s handling these issues on her blog, Facebook group, or where ever else.

    I’d like to make clear, by the way, I am not a medical doctor, and anything I’m sharing here or on other sites is just my two cents based on my personal experience and what worked for me, as well as a lot of reading by people who actually are doctors or psychologists!

    Is there something at least borderline illegal about what Lori is doing on her sites? Is she sort of presenting herself as some kind of medical expert??

    I am just concerned that someone who is deeply depressed or suicidal may just take Lori’s word at stuff, or assume she’s some kind of licensed professional, who they can fully trust with these topics. I think she could actually be hurting someone with this stuff.

    Anyway. If you click my link above and read Part 1, then Part 2 below it, you can see how I finally found my way out of depression, or for the most part. If I do experience depression now at all, it’s not like it was before. I still deal with anxiety.

    If you have depression (or anxiety), you might need to see a medical professional, you might benefit from medications and/or proper diet, getting enough sleep, cognitive therapy, etc.
    I just never found the “pray the depression away and trust in Jesus” stuff ever worked for me.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. Sarah said,

    I don’t understand how that woman can say she’s not depressed because she has friends and a fiancé. Does she think being depressed means having no relationships? It’s really insulting.

    Tell me about it! I was engaged in my early 30s to that self- absorbed weenie I’ve written about before on this blog, and I had clinical depression at that time.

    So yes, a person can have depression and be engaged at the same time, and have friends, too. (I had a few friends on my job back then.)

    Maybe the lady who wrote that post is confused as to what depression is. I will grant that when someone has depression, they do want to spend all day, every day in bed with the sheets over the head, they don’t want to go out, so it is harder to make friends that way, or to maintain friendships – but people with depression can and do have friends or get engaged.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Dash said,

    Is it any wonder I need medication? Every day that goes by I’m supposed to pretend like none of it ever happened. My dad says that it’s all “in the past,” gets irritated and asks when I’m going to let it go. When indeed.

    Oh Dash, do I ever relate.

    My family was not physically abusive like yours. I endured low-key, pretty consistent verbal and emotional abuse, starting with my father, but my two older siblings picked that up from dad, and subjected me to it, even now (my sister at least. My brother seems to have mellowed out).

    But there was this subtle, drip drip drip message towards me that I was not good enough, I was shamed for making mistakes (just normal mistakes like anyone does), and my father communicated to me that I should feel ashamed of myself… for what, I never understood.

    And, in adulthood, after my mother died (even once or twice before), my father asked me on 2 or 3 occasions, why it was I always went to Mom for advice and guidance, and not him… when I tried explaining it was due to his negative behavior and put-downs, instead of owning up to it and apologizing, he gets defensive, won’t own up to it, and I overheard him telling my sister that I just like to “blame my parents.”

    Sigh. It’s similar to the gas-lighting stuff your dad has done to you.

    My sister is like that, too. She will never own up and admit to her verbal abuse of me. When I finally began calling her out on it a few years ago, she either played the victim (“feel sorry for me, I am mean to you because my life is so stressful”) or she basically yells at me louder and feels she’s justified in bullying me.

    I have a family that emotionally beats me up, and if I bring it to their attention, they act as though I am the problem, or I deserve it, etc.
    That is what’s worse to me – your family beats you up for years when you were younger (and still do), but then later on, they refuse to admit it (refuse to take responsibility and apologize), or they brush it off like it’s nothing, or, they act as though it was totally justified.

    (So, I really, really related to your post, even though the type of mistreatment I got was not identical to yours.)

    Liked by 1 person

  19. And Re: Dash’s Post,
    Dash said,

    “My dad says that it’s all “in the past,” gets irritated and asks when I’m going to let it go. When indeed.”

    I wanted to add, yes! This so resonated me with as well.

    A couple of years ago, I tried explaining to my father how his negative, overly critical behavior towards me as a kid has impacted me as an adult, and he scoffed at me.

    He also has a hard time believing I can still remember painful stuff he said to me when I was an 8 year old kid now that I’m in my 40s. Oh yes, I still remember his cold comments from back then.

    He also has this attitude of ‘you should just get over it.’

    He thinks I should just let it go (which I try to do anyhow, because I’m come to realize I don’t want to let the past affect me now, but it would sure be a lot easier if he – and my sister – would stop verbally abusing me, diminishing my feelings, and acknowledge they’ve hurt me in the past, but no, they won’t do that).

    Liked by 1 person

  20. David said,

    On the way home, I decided to listened to a sermon podcast by John MacArthur on “contentment.”

    I briefly mentioned J-Mac in a post on my Daisy blog – Here – (the section under Mental Health).
    I have a book by a Christian psychiatrist who calls out J-Mac in particular for being hideous on mental health topics.

    I’d also add that Southern Baptist Charles Stanley and San Antonio-based preacher John Hagee can be the pits on this stuff.

    Stanley thinks if you have depression, suicidal thoughts, or anxiety, the problem is with you – as though anxiety or whatever is nothing more but a lack of faith in God.

    Well, for a lot of people, anxiety has a biological cause that can only be treated effectively with medication.

    Stanley also said in one sermon on depression that if you are suicidal that if you are considering committing suicide, that if you went through with it, that it would send a “wrong message” to your atheist friends that “Jesus doesn’t work” (he put it something like that).

    I was appalled that Stanley was telling anyone who is suicidal to just tough it out and hang on, because if they didn’t, it wouldn’t make the Gospel look good – as though it’s a marketing thing for Jesus.

    John Hagee comes pretty close to being lunk headed about depression, too.

    I used to watch his show almost every day for years and years… Hagee used to sermonize about depression as though it’s a matter of self-control (if you just tried hard enough to be happy, you could be happy), and that it was a sin to be depressed

    I can only assume that some viewer in TV land contacted his ministry one day to set him straight, because after X number of sermons where he shames the depressed for being depressed…
    I was listening to one show one day, and he paused to say, “Of course, some forms of depression may be due to an imbalance not just a matter of wrong attitude, so you may want to see a doctor and take medication, but for other people…. (blah blah blah)”

    Anyway, from what I’ve read about MacArthur, he’s one of those guys who thinks it’s a sin to have depression, and if you just concentrate on Jesus enough, your sad feelings will just melt away – how freaking uninformed he is, how naive!!!

    Liked by 3 people

  21. David said,

    (John MacArthur taught)
    Put others first and yourself last.

    That comes from the CCBV (Codependent Christian Bible Version). I know it well.

    I get into this more at my Daisy blog, but I had that ground into me since I was a kid, and it continues now that I’m an adult from my father and big sister, the following ideas (and it was sometimes based on Christian teaching; my mother wrapped some of this in Bible-jargon):

    My feelings and needs to not matter but everyone else’s needs and feelings matter.

    I exist only to meet the needs of other people.

    Me getting my own needs met (which would entail me putting me before other people every now and then, not others first) is SELFISH and to be avoided at all costs.

    I could write volumes on how such thinking hurt me, but I won’t get into it now.

    I am afraid there are too many Christians who interpret the Bible in that same CCBV manner. They only remember and cherry pick the one or two verses that talk about loving your enemy as yourself, think more highly of others than yourself, etc,

    But, they will filter out all the example of Jesus and apostle Paul being assertive…
    Or the examples of them getting their own needs met (remember all the times in the Bible when Jesus did NOT stick around to heal the hungry and tired and help people, but the Bible says he went off alone to sleep, to take a nap, or pray, or, if someone was being rude or nasty, Jesus told them to take a long walk off a short pier – he didn’t just sit there and silently endure verbal abuse off the Pharisees???)

    If you follow J-Mac’s advice, he’s asking you to live life as a codependent doormat, which means, you will attract abusive, selfish, or mean people to you. It can also result in…
    You will end up being physically tired all the time, because you are running around helping others, and feel it’s “too selfish” for you to get a nap, take a rest.

    You will swallow anger rather than sticking up for yourself, which can turn into depression or a mountain of repressed anger.

    Liked by 3 people

  22. Kathi said,

    Let’s not forget that Lori thinks that sadness and depression are Satanic. I guess because it’s of Satan no earthly doctor or counselor could ever help a person.

    I apologize for being a little repetitive here, but..
    During all the years I was a Christian, the prayer and Jesus-faith stuff did not help alleviate my depression (or anxiety) at all.

    But books by Christian and Non-Christian psychologists and psychiatrists DID help with that stuff (and the Christian doctor’s books I read were NOT the jokers who prescribe the “pray it away” method, but they make allowances for therapy and medications, etc)
    I wonder how Lori A. would attempt to explain that?

    Liked by 3 people

  23. I spent 15 years in an abusive ‘Christian’ cult and another 13 recovering. I went to a number of different ‘counsellors’, all of them apparently Christian and none of them helpful, most of them with narcissistic leanings. One told me that only physical abuse was harmful.

    I wanted to talk about my cult experience. None of them understood it or had any genuinely helpful experience with it.

    After many years of going it alone I began to understand the underpinnings of why I was so depressed anxious and dealing with panic attacks. I began reading about narcissistic mothers and slowly recognised that the panic was a result of being raised by a vicious sadistic woman. I was not intrinsically broken I was damaged by wilful negligence.

    But no counsellor could tell me that. God led me to the truth by giving me the strength to go on and the perseverance to find the truth.

    I understand perfectly the anger on these comments. But I want to testify that God truly is there for the broken-hearted and works in ways that most of us don’t even think would be viable.

    My message to all who struggle with the pain and isolation of abuse is that God will make a way where there seems to be no way. I have sometimes thought death seemed more appealing than living in this hard cold world. But Jesus took me by the hand and breathed new life into my body and took away the darkness. He will do what He has to do for each of us and uses a myriad of different means to bring us to Him but He still is the only way back to God from the ravages of abuse.

    Liked by 3 people

  24. “Every day that goes by I’m supposed to pretend like none of it ever happened.”

    Dash, I semi know how you feel. I told my mother I had been sexually abused nine years after it stopped, I was nineteen. My mother proceeded to inform me that it happened along time ago, to get over it, and to never mention it again. The woman could not care less.

    “My dad says that it’s all “in the past” That is easy for him to say.

    Lori Alexander is a selfish, sadistic, hate filled, mean spirited hag. She is promoting her fetishes as God’s fetishes. She is condemning her pet peeves as God’s pet peeves. We can all read the bible. She does not know anything we don’t. She is just p*ssed we might not do what she wants us to do, or we might do what she does not want us to do.

    If Lori was a good decent human being, if she had ever encountered sympathy she might be ashamed of herself.

    Lori reminds me of the people I grew up with who got pleasure out of other people’s hurt.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Daisy,

    I knew people who were friends with Ken Nally. I have a hard time believing the church’s defense when they denied having discouraged Nally from seeking resources outside the church.

    One of MacArthur’s best sellers is called “Sufficiency of Christ.” He argues that Christ alone provides all the answers to difficult life issues and that believers should not seek resources for spiritual and mental well being outside of Christ.

    Sounds good, but what he and his minions really mean is that his religious system provides all the answers. He conflates his man made religious system with Christ himself which seems blasphemous to me. Luckily for him, I am not his judge.

    Back in the 80’s when I was an attendee at his church, MacArthur found the existing conservative seminaries such as Dallas and Talbot going astray from the his version of the true gospel and founded his own.

    Go look at his church staff and also the seminary’s faculty. The vast majority of them, if not all, are graduates of the Master’s Seminary. So the church and the seminary staffed with his own minions, do you think there is any kind of accountability for the man when his empire is full of yes men? Graduates from his seminary are now all over the world founding churches and effectively creating a denomination for John MacArthur’s brand of fundamentalism. Julie Anne’s old pastor, although not a graduate of the Master’s, is also a MacArthur boot licker.

    Of course MacArthur is not the only one who cultivates his own religious empire. Wasn’t the Reformation about liberating from the papal tyranny? Now the Evangelicals have their own popes all over the world and they each call their own system “sufficient.”

    Liked by 4 people

  26. Thank you, Kathi & Julie Anne, for exposing the dangerous teachings and thinking of Lori Alexander! Her advice is toxic and ignorant. She is callous toward those who are struggling with deep pain, and her words reveal a sanctimonious superficial fake piety. Lord have mercy on the women who are influenced by her misleading drivel.

    Liked by 6 people

  27. I am so glad I am not the only one feeling SO very angry about her suicide post. My son attempted suicide, my grandmother committed suicide and my mother suffered depression as older woman. I know something about depression and it is FAR more than just feeling sad. Lori Alexander is a dangerous woman who just loves all the attention she gets the people who swoon over her. I have been banned from commenting on her Facebook page and she will not publish anything I write on her blog (I am the wrong sort of Christian – I work and therefore I am a sinner). Keep up the fight to show this woman for what she is and it certainly isn’t a Christian.

    Liked by 5 people

  28. Lori has all kinds of free “medical” advice in her videos.

    Oh goodness. Linn, anytime someone talks about ‘chemicals’ I just…sigh.

    Some of this stuff (like cancer) is genetic, Lori! Read a book.

    Liked by 3 people

  29. Also, she puts beef tallow on her skin? I make my own moisturizer but I use stuff like shea butter and coconut oil. That sounds gross. (Sorry to divert from the topic, i just wanted to see if she started talking about essential oils in that video curing cancer or something.)

    Basically, don’t go to Lori for medical advice. She is dangerously uninformed. Also, don’t go to her for other advice because she’s kookoobananas.

    Liked by 2 people

  30. “I have been banned from commenting on her Facebook page and she will not publish anything I write on her blog”

    If you are not going to flatter Lori’s ego and post things that benefit Lori’s ego she will ban you. The soulless woman is so embarrassing.

    I would not be surprised if soon we do not see survivor blogs from women who have been damaged by Lori Alexander’s fetishes.

    Liked by 3 people

  31. @ChristianityHurts:

    If Lori was a good decent human being, if she had ever encountered sympathy she might be ashamed of herself.

    How can you “be ashamed of yourself” when You Can Do No Wrong?
    And God Himself pat-pat-pats you on the head for it?

    Liked by 1 person

  32. @Kathi:

    Let’s not forget that Lori thinks that sadness and depression are Satanic. I guess because it’s of Satan no earthly doctor or counselor could ever help a person.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. “How can you “be ashamed of yourself” when You Can Do No Wrong?”

    The woman has a Texas-size ego. That is for sure.

    Like

  34. David C, would it be okay if I quote you in full or in part on my Daisy blog, if I do any blog posts in the future about Christianity and depression, or maybe to the person calling him/herself “megs48” in the comment section at my Daisy blog (under this post)?

    The “megs” person left a comment under the post at my blog saying this (first she/he cited a link to an article):

    It actually appears everybody was concerned about Mr. Nally’s suicidal ideation and he was referred to sources outside Grace Community.

    They wanted to hospitalize him, he refused sadly.

    Here was part of my reply over there at my blog to megs:

    If I recall from articles I read over a year ago, yes, the church got off in the lawsuit.

    But it does not change the fact that JMac, his church, and a lot of Christians of various denominations do not foster an atmosphere that makes Christians who do have depression (or other mental health problems) feel comfortable discussing them, or to admitting to having them.

    Liked by 2 people

  35. Thank you, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this post. This article has been eating me up for days. I’m a licensed mental health professional, I’ve commented on here in the past, treated spiritual abuse issues in counseling, and written about it. Lori’s post terrified me. I was so afraid that someone was going to take their life because of what Lori wrote.
    Ironically, if she was licensed as a mental health professional, I could report her to the board and hopefully, she could be curbed. As it is? I know of nothing I can do, legally, to protect others from her behavior. However, your article has given me a good idea – to watch the Facebook posts and screencap what I can before she deletes it. Perhaps that can provide some much-needed accountability, and maybe even help counteract her dangerous advice.

    Liked by 4 people

  36. “your article has given me a good idea – to watch the Facebook posts and screencap what I can before she deletes it”

    Thank you, Stephanie A.

    I have been suicidal since age eleven and have physically hurt myself.
    Three of my cousins have committed suicide.
    One cousin is in prison because of his untreated bipolar. He was posting Bible verses on his Facebook the week he got arrested. He will be in prison for twenty years.
    My bipolar great-grandmother was in and out of mental homes her whole life.
    My grandfather who was a Southern Baptist preacher is the most mentally ill emotionally disturbed person I have ever known. All of us were church going, bible owning, Jesus loving Christians.

    Reading bible verses never helped any of us.

    I hope a day comes when Lori Alexander acquires a compassionate understanding intelligent informed heart and she feels guilt for the dumb know-nothing selfish crap she has peddled.

    Liked by 2 people

  37. There’s so much good discussion going on here, everyone! Thank you to those who have shared their experiences with depression. It is encouraging to know that there are people here getting much needed help and are free (or as free as you can be) from toxic ideology. And, thank you to everyone who supports friends or loves ones with mental health issues or works with people who need counseling and support. I know that is very tiring, but your time and efforts are so important.

    I truly believe that Lori showed her true heart by deleting the comments with the suicide helpline and affirming that doctors can be a useful resource for mental health. I really do hope we have some of her readers find us and realize that when she states that she is only doing “what God says” what she really means is that she is doing what looks best, is least confrontational, and is not fully honest. God created us to fully experience a wide range of emotions. That includes anger, depression, and sadness. These emotions are not of Satan. He can handle our emotions.

    Liked by 4 people

  38. Daisy,

    Of course you can quote me. In response to meg48’s claim that Ken Nally was referred to professionals outside of the church, there is a huge caveat. Here is MacArthur’s blog post based on his book I referred to above, Our Sufficiency In Christ, which discusses the very lawsuit.

    our staff had seen to it that he was examined by several medical doctors, to rule out organic or chemical causes for his depression.

    They counseled Nally to seek professional help only to have him diagnosed for “organic or chemical causes,” but not psychiatric or psychological issues. Ken did pursue secular remedies (psychiatric help, “every therapy available”), but he did so of his own volition without the church’s endorsement.

    And here here is the kicker

    We did all we could to help him; he rejected our counsel and turned his back on his spiritual sufficiency in Christ.

    MacArthur throws the dead man under the bus. The dead man cannot defend himself, and now MacArthur is telling the whole world that his victim lost his battle with depression because he sought secular remedies and “turned his back on his spiritual sufficiency in Christ.”

    Despicable does not even begin to describe this.

    Liked by 2 people

  39. Here is how it works. If you are suffering from depression, you need to pray more and seek biblical counseling more and strive to obey God more.

    If you are still suffering from depression, it is all your fault. You are not spiritual enough.

    Lori Alexander is channeling teachers like MacArthur.

    Liked by 3 people

  40. @Lea:

    Everything about this quote is gross.

    Doesn’t that quote just ooze RIGHTEOUSNESS?
    (Cue the Church Lady Superiority Dance…)

    Liked by 1 person

  41. To Christianity hurts: I am glad if my comment helped. But in the vein of this discussion, I want to make sure you’ve had the opportunity to get the help you need. You may have already posted about this, but have you been able to access helpful counselors, doctors, groups, etc? If not, can I suggest anything to help you locate one, if you want this? If you don’t wish for any suggestions or already have this taken care of, that’s fine, but in case you needed it I wanted to offer.

    In general: I’ve found among many Christians there is a lot of misinformation about the role of psychiatric medication and counseling. There is absolutely no reason that Christianity and psychiatry/psychology cannot coexist, if you choose. It seems like some groups of Christians think that counselors actively discourage Christian faith – we don’t. We follow whatever belief system or denomination the client believes, and try to encourage them to find fulfillment and growth within what they already believe. It also seems like they believe that willpower can change depression. It can’t. No one wants to be depressed! People who don’t have depression/haven’t ever had it (often) see it like a feeling of sadness you are wallowing in. It’s nothing like that. It could be thought of as a thin veil (or a thick wall) between you and the rest of the world. You can see reasons to be happy. You can see people you love. You can see opportunities. But you’re on the outside looking in. Therapeutic techniques and/or medications can help you move through the wall and participate in life again. But it’s not a matter of willpower.

    In fact, the more you think of it as a “sin” or willpower issue, the more you can unintentionally perpetuate the depression, because of the resulting shame & guilt. It becomes a vicious cycle.

    I would like to see more Christian leaders speak against depression/suicidality (and other mental health issue) as a sin issue. Then perhaps the ugly message of shaming would be on the outside and fringes, where it belongs. I hear it privately in conversations, but I don’t know of Christian leaders saying it publicly very often. I think it could make a difference!

    Liked by 2 people

  42. Stephanie A

    among many Christians there is a lot of misinformation about the role of psychiatric medication and counseling.

    among many Christians, there is a lot of misinformation about ____________.

    You can practically fill the blank with anything. In fact, they have very strong opinions about topics that they know so little about. Sources of misinformation are endless for people trained not to think of themselves, but to channel “godly teachers” who speak with authority.

    Didn’t Paul say something about people accumulating teachers to get their ears tickled (II Timothy 4:3)? When I was deeply steeped in conservative Evangelical culture, that is exactly what I did. Filled my bookshelves with Christian books by reputable teachers, and devoted all 10 plus hours a week on the road playing sermon tapes, attended 2-3 weekly Bible studies for hours of “solid teaching.” Don’t get me started about retreats and conferences.

    Nobody accumulates teachers like conservative Evangelicals do. MacArthur uses the verse to throw barbs at liberal Christians. Ask any liberal Christian to list their favorite teachers. You will get a blank look.

    Liked by 2 people

  43. “Ironically, if she was licensed as a mental health professional, I could report her to the board and hopefully, she could be curbed. As it is? I know of nothing I can do, legally, to protect others from her behavior. However, your article has given me a good idea – to watch the Facebook posts and screencap what I can before she deletes it. Perhaps that can provide some much-needed accountability, and maybe even help counteract her dangerous advice.” – Stephanie A.

    Consider filing a report with Lori’s state’s medical board for the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine.

    I have filed UPM with the California Medical Board about my ex-pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley who ran their mouthes and engaged in UPM, which can be prosecuted as a felony or as a misdemeanor in California.

    Liked by 1 person

  44. ” When I was deeply steeped in conservative Evangelical culture, that is exactly what I did. Filled my bookshelves with Christian books by reputable teachers, and devoted all 10 plus hours a week on the road playing sermon tapes, attended 2-3 weekly Bible studies for hours of “solid teaching.” Don’t get me started about retreats and conferences.” – David C.

    David, Do you mind if I ask how you got out?

    I was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned from a John MacArthur-ite
    church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, on some trumped up charges, just like they did to the doctor in his 70’s before me, and a middle-aged woman in finance before the good doctor. (GBFSV is run by one of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary abusive graduates Cliff McManis. McManis calls himself “Dr. McManis” because he has a FAKE Ph.D. from a diploma mill in Independence, Missouri, and another FAKE advanced degree from the same diploma mill. McManis also runs his mouth about serious matters and does Nouthetic Counseling, in other words the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine which can be prosecuted as a felony or as a misdemeanor in my state, California.)

    Like

  45. Depression is serious business. How I wish just going to the bible, and praying would clear it all up. She(Lori A) is not alone in thinking depression is an issues to cure with the bible. A few years ago when I was looking for some material for devotions with my kids I ran across a book that was supposed to be about character and the scriptures to go along with it. Imagine my surprise and disgust when I saw that the author treated depression of simply having the wrong ideas about yourself! I did not purchase the book. Thank God for free samples to screen material with. My depression is not a character issue. It is the result of lousy theology combined with an abused childhood and the resultant stress disease Fibromyalgia.

    Liked by 3 people

  46. After the deleted suicide exchange, I got motivated to start a site to collect and memorialize all these crazy screenshots.

    Here it is for anyone interested

    https://thingsgodlywomensay.tumblr.com/

    The title is suppose to have the same sort of ring to it as that book “stuff white people like”.

    I’ve posted a few of the shots I have collected. If you all have anything to submit, follow the “submit a screenshot” instructions at the top of the page.

    Liked by 3 people

  47. thingsgodlywomensay – That’s awesome! Thanks for sharing. I don’t think you’ll have trouble filling up your site on Lorisms alone.

    Liked by 1 person

  48. thingsgodlywomensay, that is awesome. Those are some gems.

    We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. …… Is playing in a sewer a sin? I would say it was since you are desecrating your body, in the same way anal sex desecrates your body.

    Wow, that escalated fast.

    And that other stuff you quote. LOL. I would have a second name for your blog: The Gospel According to Stepford.

    Liked by 2 people

  49. Daisy, Dash, Amen to your posts.

    My experience was more like Daisy’s. Verbal and Emotional Abuse was okay in my family as long as it wasn’t directed at my dad. He was untouchable because the Bible somehow said so, but he would watch while we ridiculed my mom or each other, and he would be happy to contribute as well.

    As one of the youngest, I got much of the abuse directed at me. Then, because I worked hard and was successful, they somehow decided it was okay to label me the spoiled brat.

    While all of this was happening, I attended a church in the vein of Lori/MacArthur that said that we can achieve a sinless emotional state simply by throwing all of our negative experiences in a box.

    The whole thing is a no-win. If you’re angry, doesn’t matter what you’re angry about, you’re out of line. If you suffered abuse, that doesn’t matter because emotional scars just go in the box and you can put a smile on your face and be a good Christian. Boundaries are somehow sinful because God would never say “no” when we asked for his help, and somehow being wise stewards of what God has given us is a lack of faith.

    They also implied that every mental disorder was caused by sin and the purpose of counseling was to identify that sin so that it could be rooted out and life return to normal.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Here is a blog from Tim Fall on John MacArthur using Darwin’s reported mental illnesses to attack the theory of evolution. It’s a classic ad hominem attack.

    Attacking dead people who suffered from mental illnesses must be a fetish for MacArthur. He also attacked Ken Nally for turning “his back on his spiritual sufficiency in Christ” before taking his life (elaborated in my comment above).

    Liked by 1 person

  51. David C, “Didn’t Paul say something about people accumulating teachers to get their ears tickled (II Timothy 4:3)? When I was deeply steeped in conservative Evangelical culture, that is exactly what I did.”

    I ended up thinking the same thing. I visited my old church once after having been absent for a year. The sermon? A rant against “antinomianism” – the idea that somehow Biblical laws do not apply to us anymore. It was a complete straw man. Very few Christians would say it was okay to lie, steal, murder because the law is done away with, and we don’t need a sermon on how to deal with the 1 in 1000 antinomian wackos. It was really a way to tickle ears about how wonderful the church was and how they didn’t fall for all the wacko doctrines prevalent today.

    Someone came up to me after the service and was trying to impress upon me how wonderful and applicable the preaching was. My response… “How many antinomians do you rub shoulders with?” He hemmed and hawed a bit before finding something else to talk about.

    Liked by 2 people

  52. David C.,

    I wanted to know what was your turning point to cause you to leave the evangelical world of MacArthur & Company? Would you mind sharing your story?

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Velour, I didn’t mean to ignore your question.

    I moved from LA to Orange County for a job and I was ready to find a new church environment. While at MacArthur’s church, I never felt good enough, and was never accepted by the people in the young adults’ group despite my efforts. But deep down, the feelings were mutual. As much as I tried, I never really bought the system, but I did keep trying to buy it, but I never did.

    In Orange County, I wandered through various Calvary Chapels. After all, the Costa Mesa one is the mothership led by Chuck Smith. The funny thing is, everyone that I spoke with had never heard of John MacArthur. Here I thought MacArthur was the next Martin Luther respected and admired around the world, but people a little more than an hour away from his church had never head of him. But of course they had their own spiritual titans that they swore by.

    Calvary people seemed a bit more laid back than the reformed types, but they have their own quirks which did not sit well with me. Their fixations on end times prophecy and right wing politics which intensified following 9-11 ultimately drove me out.

    Now I am involved with a house church. Been doing that for the past 7 years now. The big difference is, that we have no leadership. That’s right. We truly take the priesthood of the believer seriously.

    Liked by 1 person

  54. Mark, I can totally relate.

    I remember feeling angry after every Bible Study. Angry at the Methodists. Angry at the feminists. Angry at the liberals. Angry at the atheists. Angry at the abortionists. Angry the gays and the lesbians. Angry at ACLU. It eventually got pretty tiring to have all these boogymen live in my head rent free.

    Of course I saw it as “righteous anger” that Christ felt when he threw out the money changers. LOL.

    I am convinced that churches today are led and manipulated by the same money changers who use fear mongering to keep the sheep angry at the boogymen in the world while oblivious to the wolves in sheep’s clothing in their midst.

    Like

  55. Hi David C.,

    Thanks for letting me know your journey out of John MacArthur’s church.

    I too got burned in this system…and was excommunicated and shunned on some trumped up charge by a JMac protegee at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. The pastors/elders at GBFSV excommunicated/shunned a godly doctor in his 70’s before me on some trumped up charges (a man who paid for the senior pastor to join him and JMac on a trip to North Carolina to meet the Rev. Billy Graham at Graham’s log cabin home. The doctor also paid for most of the DVDs and books to start the church’s lending library. Just shameful what was done to him. Ditto before him…a godly middle-aged woman who works in finance.).

    Liked by 1 person

  56. ^I also learned that my ex-pastor’s “Ph.D.” (cough) is a FAKE from a diploma mill in Independence, Missouri (Faith Bible College) as is his other “advanced degree” — also A FAKE from the same diploma mill.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. “I remember feeling angry after every Bible Study. Angry at the Methodists. Angry at the feminists. Angry at the liberals. Angry at the atheists. Angry at the abortionists. Angry the gays and the lesbians. Angry at ACLU. It eventually got pretty tiring to have all these boogymen live in my head rent free.” – David C.

    I encountered the same level of nonstop prejudice, judgments, and hate. I didn’t come away angry, however, but depressed and distant. I wondered how small the group’s Jesus was that they couldn’t exhibit the ONE Biblical quality that Jesus said would be shown by His disciples: Love.

    I was always a nice person. I am a far nicer person now that I am out of this sick, hateful, abusive, unloving, un-biblical toxic system. My family and friends are also relieved that I am out of it — as they saw a change in me for the worse being around such hateful people.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. This isn’t even getting into the abusive and twisted hogwash she’s spewed on her old blog, Always Learning. One of the posts there from 2012 advocates using black salve, btw. Even though this blog’s been abandoned, I don’t wanna give her anything to bolster her site visit statistics if at all possible. http://archive.is/bAtLP

    Like

  59. Velour,

    I remember you mentioning your old church. It directs all of its college ministry resources to Stanford while ignoring San Jose State. MacArthur’s church did something similar. Even though Cal State Northridge is right in its backyard, most of its college ministry resources was directed at UCLA which is about 15 miles away through hellish LA traffic. I see that San Jose State is closer to your old church than Stanford is as well.

    Of course that is exactly what Jesus would have done (sarcasm). Let’s share the gospel with the elites and watch the love of Jesus trickle down to the inferior.

    I can only guess your expastor pads his educational credentials and calls himself a “PhD” to make himself viable for the Stanford college ministry. I doubt anyone other than the ex-pastor is impressed.

    Did they actually call it an “excommunication”? What century was this?

    Liked by 1 person

  60. Hi David C.,

    You have an excellent memory about what I posted about my ex-gulag, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. Yes, they bypass the poorer San Jose State students and keep their focus on the potential high-income earners at the elite, private Stanford University.

    That’s interesting that MacArthur has the same strategy in SoCal, bypassing Cal State Northridge for U.C.L.A. students.

    Many U.C.L.A. students from JMac’s church when they moved north for engineering jobs in Silicon Valley became members of my ex-gulag. I feel sorry that so many U.C.L.A. graduates are involved in abusive, authoritarian false teachings…because their friends got them involved.

    I was excommunicated a couple of years ago on some trumped up charges. First I had discovered a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer at church while doing a research project for a former prosecutor. I reported my findings to the pastors/elders. They had me in a meeting, screamed at me, said “child porn wasn’t a big deal”, and said the felon was their friend and they had given him church membership. They had given him a position of leadership and trust. They even invited him to volunteer with children at the 5-day summer basketball camp for children, without telling all parents and the owners of gyms that a Megan’s List sex offender could show up at any time!

    At the end of the meeting about the sex offender, the chairman of the elder board opened his Bible and read me a passage that I was destined for Hell and not one of us…in somber tones. What a jerk!

    The chairman of the elder board called me at home and threatened me some more on behalf of all of the pastors/elders, that I was to never contact law enforcement or the California Attorney General again about the sex offender. The senior pastor and said their friend the sex offender was coming off Megan’s List. The California Attorney General called that story “all lies” and “total lies”.

    I was also blamed in Nouthetic Counseling by the pastors/elders for the memory problems of a Dyslexic (which is a memory problem, not a reading problem) church member. She gets a disability check from the federal government every month, can’t work, and failed school because of her disability. She can’t work because of it. She has refused medical care and disability support groups. When it all went wrong… she blamed me and the pastors/elders did same. I was told that I was in “sin” for her memory disorder problems. Sigh. Not my problem.

    Hundreds of church members were told what a horrible person I was by the pastors/elders and to never speak to me again. It was completely untrue. She has short-term memory problems, working memory problems, and auditory memory problems.

    I have turned in the pastors/elders for the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine to the California Medical Board. It’s a crime than can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or a felony.

    Liked by 1 person

  61. I read something the other day that piqued my nerdy side’s interest. The title of the article is called A Traumatic Experience Can Reshape Your Microbiome.

    So strong is the microbiome’s impact that some have deemed it the “second brain.” And recently, a team of researchers found that our guts may harbor evidence of difficult life experiences many years after the fact, changing everything from how we digest food to how we process stress. In fact, these changes in our “second brain” may substantially alter the structure of our first, creating a feedback loop between the two.

    http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/06/microbiome-trauma-gut-bacteria.html

    Did you know that estimates say that 90% of the body’s serotonin is made in our gut? If trauma starts messing with out gut it’s going to cause a whole LOT of problems including physical as well as mental.

    Just food for thought. And a counterbalance to Lori’s nonsense.

    Liked by 3 people

  62. BTDT – Thanks for sharing that. It’s very interesting. The more I read about how trauma affects the body, the more I’m convinced that trauma not only affects the brain but affects our body in terms of illness and disease.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. @Velour:

    You have an excellent memory about what I posted about my ex-gulag, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. Yes, they bypass the poorer San Jose State students and keep their focus on the potential high-income earners at the elite, private Stanford University.

    Like the famous reason to rob banks:
    “That’s where the Money is.”

    Liked by 1 person

  64. @Velour:

    ^I also learned that my ex-pastor’s “Ph.D.” (cough) is a FAKE from a diploma mill in Independence, Missouri (Faith Bible College) as is his other “advanced degree” — also A FAKE from the same diploma mill.

    Didn’t some actual PhD in one of these blogs say flat-out “If they keep talking about their PhD and insist on being called “Doctor” by everyone, IT’S A FAKE.”

    Liked by 1 person

  65. @DavidC:

    I remember feeling angry after every Bible Study. Angry at the Methodists. Angry at the feminists. Angry at the liberals. Angry at the atheists. Angry at the abortionists. Angry the gays and the lesbians. Angry at ACLU. It eventually got pretty tiring to have all these boogymen live in my head rent free.

    Like an Inner Party Member of 1984, dragged from Two Minutes’ Hate to Two Minutes’ Hate to Two Minutes’ Hate building up to Hate Week.

    Or on a much lighter note:

    Like

  66. Didn’t some actual PhD in one of these blogs say flat-out “If they keep talking about their PhD and insist on being called “Doctor” by everyone, IT’S A FAKE.”

    I would add a caveat that this may not apply if they got it. I’ve definitely seen that reaction when I was in school.

    I work in a sea of phd/mds/etc and most of them don’t care or only use dr in a professional context. Mostly it says that a person is insecure imo.

    Liked by 1 person

  67. Velour,

    Upon hearing stories like yours, I would have said that I needed to hear both sides of the story. Then I came to realize that in every story like this, the victim is going up against the powerful institution of church on an uneven playing field. The primary mission of the institution is to preserve and protect the brand, not the victim.

    In Julie Anne’s conversation with Phil Johnson which took place when Chuck O’Neill claimed MacArthur’s blessing on his lawsuit, Johnson seemed to lend a sympathetic ear. His subsequent actions, IMO, show that his motive was only to debunk O’Neill’s claim to protect his church from negative publicity. It was a PR move. It had absolutely nothing to do with supporting victims of spiritual abuse.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. “Upon hearing stories like yours, I would have said that I needed to hear both sides of the story. Then I came to realize that in every story like this, the victim is going up against the powerful institution of church on an uneven playing field. The primary mission of the institution is to preserve and protect the brand, not the victim.” – David C.

    Thanks David. Like Julie Anne, I now describe my ex-church as a cult. If you are not familiar with psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert Steve Hassan…his books and videos are very helpful in understanding how all of these groups work.

    Like

  69. Velour, “I was always a nice person. I am a far nicer person now that I am out of this sick, hateful, abusive, unloving, un-biblical toxic system.”

    I was always nice, too. Now I am not so nice, but I’m trying to be real, kind and respectful. I try to teach that to my daughters, that being “nice” a.k.a. being a doormat with a smile on your faces most churches teach is not what Jesus taught. Jesus himself was not nice to those who were abusing the church. However, he was kind and respectful.

    David C. “I remember feeling angry after every Bible Study.”

    I was angry a lot, too. Because what was taught was half-truths and straw men, I was always angry that others couldn’t see their hand in front of their face. Now, I’m more sad than angry that we can’t figure out how to be “kind and respectful” (get the theme?) to others who have different backgrounds and perspectives, even if we disagree with them. In fact, I get angry mostly at people who are black and white and don’t want to engage in an actual discussion.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. Nice video, the church that I came from is pretty much on the edge. It really depends on the leaders of the local church whether they take a hardline stance or whether there is room for grace, but the greater church rarely intervenes with abusive local churches.

    I remember a decision point when I was in college. I was very angry at being mistreated and almost left. I ended up staying at that point, and it was about 20 years I stayed before I finally gave up. There was almost a boil-a-frog aspect to it. At each point of being disillusioned at my current treatment, I saw people 3-4 years ahead of me being shown as examples of the church working, yet 3-4 years later, I was treated the same or worse. First it was youth group, then high school group, then college age, then marriage, then kids. I checked all the boxes, but still was taken advantage of and abused and treated inferior to leaders who just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

    Liked by 1 person

  71. Velour, ‘Didn’t some actual PhD in one of these blogs say flat-out “If they keep talking about their PhD and insist on being called “Doctor” by everyone, IT’S A FAKE.”’

    It really depends. I tend to feel that way – I used to interview techies and when they showed a bunch of certifications on their resume, it was usually a flag that they didn’t know what they were doing and were relying on classroom learning to get ahead.

    However, I also know people who are brilliant and like everyone knowing that they got a Ph.D.

    I guess I have an interesting one along those lines. I have a Master of Science in Management. It’s essentially an MBA plus a thesis. When I applied to graduate, they said, you can choose either the MBA or MS. MBA carries more weight in business and MS carries more weight in academia. I know a few classmates who did the same work as I did, but chose the MBA because they could put John Doe, MBA, on their business cards.

    For me, I’d rather be the most brilliant person in the room and have people figure that out by interacting with me than be the most brilliant person in the room and get attention by throwing around my credentials, but… my approach rarely works and I do respect those people who’d rather skip that process by showing off their sheepskins.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. In Julie Anne’s conversation with Phil Johnson which took place when Chuck O’Neill claimed MacArthur’s blessing on his lawsuit, Johnson seemed to lend a sympathetic ear. His subsequent actions, IMO, show that his motive was only to debunk O’Neill’s claim to protect his church from negative publicity. It was a PR move. It had absolutely nothing to do with supporting victims of spiritual abuse.

    Very true! Although I’ve heard through the grapevine that Phil has steered people away from Chuck O’Neal’s church privately. I found that interesting. Phil’s the pastor who said that leaders should speak out against spiritual abusers, so his behavior is not matching his talk.

    Like

  73. What disturbs me greatly about Lori is her understanding of the Gospels and Jesus’ instruction in them.

    Lori interprets the bible with a dispensational view so she thinks the ‘church’ is a new ‘thing’ God is doing post resurrection.

    She writes in a comment reply: “Romans to Revelations are the books to focus upon”.

    I’ve just spent the past hour reading Matthew with a red pen and have underlined many passages with practical applications for believers and unbelievers alike. In none of these passages am I given the impression Jesus is trying to trip up the hearers so that they think, “wow, being good is impossible”.

    In other words, when Jesus says “don’t lay up treasures on earth” I don’t think he’s saying it to make us feel guilty but actually meaning what he’s saying. Another, “don’t be anxious about food or clothes”.

    Jesus isn’t trying to make us feel guilty about anxiety but rather showing us these things are not important and God can and will provide.

    What Lori does is assume her bible interpretation system is correct and then interprets jesus through that filter.

    A bit dangerous.

    What if her system is incorrect?

    She is advising readers to essentially disregard the gospels (which contain the words a wise builder hears and builds upon) and to strain over Paul’s letters which were not written to us anyway.

    I’m not saying Romans – Revelation isn’t important but if we decide Jesus isn’t important then we have a serious problem.

    We are to follow Christ. His instructions are clear and he didn’t teach to trip everyone up. He actually wants us to hear and apply.

    Lori wants us to believe Jesus was speaking to trip all the hearers up into later believing Paul’s message.

    Really?

    I struggle to picture Jesus saying “be content with your wages” because he knew no one would listen and so that could be used later on to draw people into the message of the cross.

    Maybe Jesus wants us to be content with our wages? Haha and maybe not everything has to do with us burning in a fire pit?

    Ha.

    Pretty sure God is interested in our lives in a practical manner and isn’t all about the heaven party.

    Anyway.

    In conclusion: Lori doesn’t believe we need to apply any of jesus’ instructions.

    Ken is confident his advanced diploma in bible study makes him a knower of all truth.

    It’s clear to me both could learn some humility from jesus in the beatitudes.

    they might want to study the religious people in the gospels too.

    The similarities are striking.

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  74. that Phil has steered people away from Chuck O’Neal’s church privately. I found that interesting.

    I think it’s fascinating that some men seem to be so hesitant to say what they believe to be the truth in public. I believe someone else mentioned that many (conservative I guess) pastors will privately admit that divorce for certain things like abuse is ok, but refuse to admit it publically.

    What is behind this? Is it uncharitable to simply call it cowardice, or is their something else at play?

    Like

  75. LM, I think this video is really applicable to what you’re saying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfy03PEVUhQ

    This is John Lynch talking essentially about legalism vs grace. There are some good themes, but the one that really spoke to me was the role of sin. The legalists think of sin as what keeps us from God. That is a half-truth. When we are unsaved, sin keeps us from God. When we are saved, as Lynch says, God is standing next to us looking at the pile of sin and saying, “let’s work on this together”. The legalist continues to see sin as keeping us from God, and by consequence, that sin keeps us from each other.

    One of the red flags at my last church was the overwhelming emphasis on our sin nature. Each week, we found a new aspect of our sinfulness that made us putrid in God’s sight. At one point, I looked around and thought. Who is this guy preaching to? Every person in this room is a member of the church!

    When we are in a legalistic church, we have to hide behind a mask of righteousness because we’re (rightly) afraid that being honest about our struggles with sin will alienate us from our fellow Christians. When we are in a gracious church, we feel free to work on those sin issues together because we know that we will not be labeled or alienated. Unfortunately, legalism is so prevalent today that it’s hard to find a church that actually demonstrates grace.

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  76. Lea, “What is behind this? Is it uncharitable to simply call it cowardice, or is their something else at play?”

    “Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.” (John 12 42-43)

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  77. for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God

    True.

    Speaking of, I was reading a review of a Debi Pearl book (that was negative) and Lori’s BFF Trey was there, commenting. He apparently spends a lot of time commenting on reviews of these books, in addition to Lori’s blog. Very odd.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. Velour,

    If you are not familiar with psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert Steve Hassan…his books and videos are very helpful in understanding how all of these groups work.

    He is spot on. He mentions the “discrepancy of power” as a tool of mind control which is so true in churches that place a great deal on authority. He also says how one would know he/she is under mind control: You wouldn’t. That is so right. He said it takes stepping back and evaluating the group from afar in a separate geographic location. That is exactly what happened to me. I moved for a job. When you are involved in the group, you can’t see the forest for the trees.

    I found a discussion thread on John MacArthur’s church on a site called Cult Education Institute. It’s an old thread, but anytime a discussion regarding MacArthur’s church comes up, his rabid supporters come out the woodwork swinging even on a forum devoted to victims of cults who should feel safe to discuss their concerns.

    If you were so certain and secure about your belief system, why would you be so easily rattled when questioned? Phil Johnson’s (now semi-defunct) blog perfectly illustrates how his church operates. Just look at the rules he imposes on his readers. Pay attention to #6.

    Take a cheap shot at one of our friends, wives, children, churches, or places of employment, and you risk being permanently banned without further consideration

    He equates his family with his church neither of which should be dragged through the mud. A church is a PUBLIC entity which can and should come under scrutiny while family is not. His pastor is a PUBLIC figure while his family members are not.

    The blog devotes much of its entries on dishing out criticism directed at pretty much everything and everyone outside his system, but try criticizing Phil’s church or his pastor John MacArthur. He can dish it out all day, but he can’t take it. I know. I tried once and look what happened. Check out the comments section of this blog entry.

    Liked by 1 person

  79. “I found a discussion thread on John MacArthur’s church on a site called Cult Education Institute. It’s an old thread, but anytime a discussion regarding MacArthur’s church comes up, his rabid supporters come out the woodwork swinging even on a forum devoted to victims of cults who should feel safe to discuss their concerns.” – David C.

    Hi David C.,

    Yes, I found some of those old blogs too when I was trying to figure out John MacArthur, his schools, and followers. (He really should identify as his own denomination.)

    Many of the stories were like my own at a John MacArthur-ite spin-off, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (my ex-gulag).

    One of the websites had good stories of people and their families harmed by the Grace Community Church network of churches and Masters’ Seminary graduates from MacArthur’s school. One of the websites, which could have been good, was felled by the constant harping about Free Mason conspiracies behind everything and attacks on the Jewish people. It got really old very fast.

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  80. @David C.

    More about Tom Chantry’s arrest and prosecution for child sex crimes. (He wrote for Pyro.)

    “Tom Chantry was in court on December 16, 2016; four days later he was locked up in the Yavapai County jail located in Camp Verde, Arizona. Chantry has been indicted on five counts of molestation of a child and three counts of aggravated assault with serious injury.” – The Wartburg Watch blog

    Liked by 1 person

  81. I’ve been following Chantry’s case. He was never a regular contributor. He was one of the most prolific sycophants in comments though. He was very antagonistic and strident to anyone who did not walk in lockstep.

    His post on his own blog after the 2012 presidential election went kinda viral. The title was something along the line of “Wickedness prevailed in America.” Faced with pushback, he stated that people who took issue with his stance were better off arguing with God instead of him. He said, “your quarrels are with God Almighty, not with me. I am just His messenger.”

    That is another big tool that spiritual abusers use to silence and suppress the victims. They fancy themselves as God’s messengers and gaslight their victims into thinking that defying authority figures is tantamount to rebellion against God Himself.

    I see it as a classic case of taking God’s name in vain. In American Christian culture, this commandment is an injunction against silly verbal ticks like OMG.
    So not saying things like OMG is on par with Do Not Murder? I think it’s about weaponinzing God’s name for the sake of one’s self-serving agenda and we see that everywhere today.

    Liked by 1 person

  82. Everything this woman lives by is the good word of God and she states she follows it to its entirety so that she may have everlasting life. But if she were a true follower being a godly woman. She would then have to follow scriptures that state, if a woman is raped, that woman is to be married by her rapist, and if a woman becomes a widow without having a son she is to marry her brother in law to have a son under her husbands name. Please Lori, would you apply these situations to your life. If your daughter were to be raped would you willingly give her to her aggressor, because it’s in the Bible. You become upset at us women whom you say pick and choose which scriptures we want to follow. But I am 1000% positive you would not follow this. But yet being a sexual slave to your own husband is what us women are to do to keep them in line and keep them away from the devil’s temptations. It is our duty to be sure our husbands cross through those gates with a free pass. So what is the duty of a husband to a wife, besides “providing”.

    Liked by 1 person

  83. @ David C
    Re: JUNE 5, 2017 @ 11:03 PM

    J-Mac (and his insensitive, uninformed views about mental health problems) is mentioned here (from a blog quoting a Christianity Today magazine essay):

    The Only Army that Shoots its Wounded, By Dwight L. Carlson

    Snippets (by Carlson):

    But many emotional or mental illnesses require more than a church support network can offer.

    I know it sounds unscriptural to say that some individuals need more than the church can offer—but if my car needs the transmission replaced, do I expect the church to do it?

    Or if I break my leg, do I consult my pastor about it?

    For some reason, when it comes to emotional needs, we think the church should be able to meet them all. It can’t, and it isn’t supposed to.

    This is why the emotional-health gospel can do so much harm. People who need help are prevented from seeking it and often made to feel shame for having the problem. Thankfully, more and more people in the Christian community are beginning to realize that some people need this extra help.

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