Bill Gothard, IBLP, Child Abuse, Discipline
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For some, the ramifications of following the teachings of an influential spiritual leader (or cult leader) can be lifelong. As difficult as this next personal story is to read, it is the reality for some, and that is why I will continue to post stories like this.
Part of being an advocate for those who have been abused is never forgetting the reality that they face. It is believing them and standing with them, even when it is ugly and uncomfortable. We may not be able to walk in their shoes, but we can come alongside them and let them know that we are here for them.
We’ve heard from Dash (pseudonym) before and how the teachings of Bill Gothard influenced his parents and the way they “disciplined.” The other day, Dash sent me a note sharing his thoughts and struggles, and it made me angry and sad. Dash is still suffering physically and emotionally from the abuse and trauma he faced as a child.
While Gothard may not have specifically taught parents to “discipline” their children as Dash’s parents did, his teachings laid the groundwork for “sparing the rod.” For Dash’s parents, the sparing-the-rod teachings gave them a license to beat and abuse, all for the sake of children demonstrating godliness and good character. Basically, it was whipping children into submission so that they cheerfully and robotically complied with every command.
My family also attended Bill Gothard seminars. Gothard had an unhealthy preoccupation with children maintaining an outward appearance of joy. Whether there was authentic joy did not seem to matter. So, as I was thinking about Godthard’s teachings, I realized that it is foreign for Dash to speak out like this and to express what Gothard would view as negative emotions, such as sadness, anger, etc. Thankfully, Gothard is not controlling Dash’s emotions anymore, nor are his parents. He now has the freedom to express all emotions, even the ones that may be uncomfortable. That’s good!
I no longer believe anger and sadness are negative emotions. They are simply emotions that God has given us. Dash has become acquainted with his anger. Part of the recovery process is finally connecting abuse with the anger it deserves, rather than stuffing the anger away as something ungodly. I kinda think God expresses anger at abuse. No, I know He does. That should tell us something, shouldn’t it?
Because Dash’s angry words and emotions are his reality, I am not going to remove any “offensive” language. It is not offensive to me anymore. It conveys to me that someone is in touch with their anger. I’ve come to realize over the past years that sometimes we need to express ourselves with words that most accurately describe what we’re going through. For me, to conceal these words is a way of minimizing the strength of Dash’s feelings, and I’m not going to do that. I want us to see and understand exactly where he is and feel his anger along with him. So if you are uncomfortable with reading swear words, now is the time to stop reading. Thank you for your understanding.
Dash Shares More of His Story
I had a real epiphany today. It finally came to me that Bill Gothard basically viewed his ATI families as a kind of Off-Broadway production for advertising purposes. The purpose of ATI was/is to present the evangelical community with living, breathing examples of “Perfect Family” results that can be obtained with his materials, to increase enrollment and revenue. The family home is the “backstage” area, where the performance is produced, and herein lies the really sinister part because I finally understand that Bill literally did not care how his “Perfect Family” image was achieved outside the home. Beat the kids, break them, scream at them, molest them, humiliate them, devalue them, remove all traces of self from them by any means necessary. Anything and everything is fair game so long as the ATI “Perfect Family” image is achieved outside the home, because then Gothard attains his true goal, which is self-aggrandizement. “Look at how effective my ATI materials are.”
Son of a bitch.
You want to know about Bill Gothard’s true legacy? Let me tell you about his legacy.
It’s very interesting to me how y’all talk about “relationships.” Boyfriends, girlfriends, married, divorced, kids, grandkids. I’m 47 and I don’t date. I haven’t dated in over a decade. I gave up on social interactions in college. I hate people with a passion. All the goddamn drama for nothing. I’ve never been married and I’ve never had a kid. I leave my apartment to work and that’s it. I live alone with two cats; I haven’t had a roommate in 20 years. If I could just sleep all the time, I would.
A lot of you still go to churches, which frankly amazes me. Why? Not for me. Never again in this lifetime. Why the hell would I go to some building where an arbitrarily appointed authoritarian in a monkey suit glowers from the pulpit and tells me all the ways I’m living my life wrong? All you preachers out there, take your exegesis and your scholarly opinions and shove them up your collective asses. You don’t matter. The Bible is bullshit. It’s a bunch of fairy tales and stone age folk stories. It’s superstitious hocus-pocus and it’s a joke.
Am I depressed? You bet I am. I live with migraines, numbness in my hands and feet, blurred vision, tinnitus. The doctors I have worked with most recently agreed that the likely diagnosis is CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy), which is a degenerative disease of the brain tissue that occurs later in life when you’ve been hit repeatedly in the fucking head.
My parents beat the shit out of us kids in my family until we were old enough to leave. Before Gothard and twice as badly after we joined ATI. Not just spankings, either, but full-on beatings with open hands, closed fists, dowel rods, belts. My mother hit me in the head hard enough to knock me sprawling and knock me out cold on numerous occasions. My dad used to start swinging with closed fists at the slightest provocation. They used Gothard’s teachings to justify all of it. They screamed and bellowed them at us. We were bad evil children deserving of death.
My mother sexually molested me when I was two. The mere idea of sex makes me physically sick.
I doubt I’ll live to see retirement. I’m not even sure I’ll make it another five years. Life is intolerable and the world we live in sucks. God does not exist, and his followers are gibbering lunatics. There is nothing in this world that I want. Even my music begins to pall with age. What’s the point of any of it? Death would be a kindness to me, and I fucking mean it.
^^^THIS is Gothard’s real legacy.
Other articles by Dash:
- Survivor Shares about Abuse in Which He Puts the Blame Ultimately on the Teachings of Bill Gothard
- Man Shares Personal Testimony of How Bill Gothard Used Bible Verses Which Led to the Abuse of Children
- Man Shares Personal Testimony of How Bill Gothard Used Bible Verses Which Led to the Abuse of Children, Part 2
- Victim of Bill Gothard’s Teachings Speaks out about Josh Duggar Scandal, Mike Huckabee: Bill Gothard’s Dangerous Agenda and Influence in Political Arena and Society at Large
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Dear Dash,
I am so sorry that you experienced this tyranny, all in the name of god. I am so very sorry. Thank you for daring to expose this for what it is by sharing more of the details of your story.
Hugs,
Brenda
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Anything that separates you from the reality of being human and having the human emotions that Jesus expressed (both sadness and anger, multiple examples of both) is straight from hell. Please don’t let these pigs separate you from Jesus, because when He walked among us and ran into people like that He overturned their tables and scattered their money on the floor for anyone to take and went after their arses with whips. He also told people it’d be better for them to be thrown straight into the sea with a big stone round their necks that hurt people like you.
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I am heart broken for Dash. I pray for him asking the Lord to do the healing work only He is able to do.
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Dash-I am sorry this happened to you and that no one was there to protect you. I was not exposed to Gothard until I was a young adult and even then I thought he was strange. I didn’t know how strange until the stories that started appearing on the internet a few years ago. I pray you will find the peace and comfort a loving God wants to give you because you are much more special to Him than you ever were to your parents or Gothard.
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Dash – Thanks for sharing more with us. I do appreciate hearing from you on here. I always know your thoughts are raw and come from the heart. What pains me is knowing that those raw thoughts come from deep hurt. You are valued here, Dash.
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I am not at all offended by the language. On the contrary, I appreciate Dash’s honesty and transparency. I totally understand where Dash is coming from and pray for his healing. So sad!
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heart breaking… and how this has been multiplied for so many others. It is grievous, appalling, and so so wrong…
and Dash, even though you consider the Bible is bs, etc…
I pray for healing in your inner being, Dash, as only the Holy Spirit, the Counselor can bring, in His beautiful way, deep inside of you, in your inner being that was violated in so many ways over the years… I do not blame you at all for shutting down to love from any human being (I bless your cats for their comfort to you!)… People are meant and wired to be loved, and when you receive mixed messages from your parents, who are suppose to love you, that as young children we love them unconditionally because we are trusting children, and when instead of love from them, we get abuse (whatever their intentions are), our soul is deeply wounded… and at a young age, even though there is no way to articulate this horrific crisis, but you know in your inner being (not cognitively necessarily), that what is happening is so wrong and it causes great confusion internally.
I see you as a spiritual refugee… refugees flee because it is not safe for them anymore… and again, I don’t blame you one bit for running away as fast as you could when you could, from the church and staying away from the institutional church… I am grateful you are connecting with the Ekklesia (organic church) here via Julie Anne, etc.
I find this is also confirming of how manipulative type “powers that be” have turned the institutional church into a corrupt business for their own benefit, to some significant extent…
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More Iron age folk tales but I get your point. This was very helpful to me in how you expressed yourself. I also relate to the physical issues and the constant pain/numbness. It can be so exhausting. One thing I am coming to realize and be so totally thankful for is that my parents did not force God down our throat. My father loathed the evangelical “born again” faith with a deep passion and it actually protected me in ways I am just know beginning to understand.
Dash these are mere words but I am sorry this happened to you. If this helps your articles have helped me a great deal.
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It sounds kind of weird to say I liked what you said, or I loved it, but I did. Not because I am a crazy who enjoys people in torment but because I know how it feels to express those real thoughts and feelings with abandon. I know saying it where /when folks get shocked it made me feel good. It made me feel powerful. Keep saying it. I admire the blunt honesty. I understand the hopeless utter torment you are living .
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The sad thing, Bunkababy, is that there are some who would criticize his words and completely miss his message. That ain’t going to happen here on my watch!
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Thank you, Julie Anne.
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Thank you for sharing, Dash. It can be really really hard to share feelings like this, because in my experience people accuse you of being negative or tell you to stop complaining. So thank you for speaking out. And I want to thank you on a personal level too. I came so close to going down the ATI route for homeschool, but even from the outside his approach seemed lacking in compassion. The more I read stories like yours, the more thankful I am that I pushed for a different approach for my kids. God only knows what would have happened. My husband has issues of his own as it is; thank goodness he didn’t get hold of a religious justification for them, because without the support of my church I don’t know where I’d be.
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Dash, Thank you for being open here with your pain. Unfortunately, many people can not empathize, because emotions like anger, rage scare the Hell out of them and they aren’t able to recognize the pain behind the anger.
I am hopeful that your willingness to pour out your rage here and maybe, just maybe experience some empathy and love here will be a small step towards healing.
I personally have often dealt with the desire to just die and get life over with.
Poor parenting can leave a hole in your heart a mile wide. Healthy connection with just one or two people can help make life tolerable, and at times can bring moments of contentment.
I hope you can find one or two connections. Stay away from those people who trigger your pain!! I am sorry for your suffering and want you to know your life holds great value!! Love-Ann
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Dash,
I want to add my “I’m sorry this happened to you”. It shouldn’t have. I also realize that all the sorry’s in the world can’t take away your pain. Thankfully, though, you do have an affirming place to air your frustrations/anger. It’s your story and you get to tell it any way you want to, with as many colourful adjectives — we’ll listen and not judge. Please know that there are many of us who sincerely wish we could make things different for you. I agree with Ann, above. I am hoping you can find people you can relate to and who will understand you. After all, the Dash we’ve come to know on JA’s blog, we like. 🙂
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Hopelessness is the one that scares me.
I hope that sharing and knowing that there are people who do care helps.
I don’t have anything to say that isn’t trite because my response to this story is an expletive, sadness and concern.
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Dash
Cats are the best.
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BTW, did you see the ‘gospel’ coalition has an article about how having been mistreated doesn’t give you any ‘secret’ knowledge? Calling people ‘broken wolves’. Of course, especially women, because why not? Ugh.
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Lea, are you talking about Tim Challies’ article? If so, yes. I saw Phil Johnson promoting it.
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Would that be hillbilly Phil?
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Ha! Not sure. This is Phil Johnson who is the executive director at Grace to You (John MacArthur’s gig).
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Gotcha. .. I forgot my friend Mr. Google. . .
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I read the “broken wolves” essay by Joe Carter, and it’s hilarious. I don’t claim to be a Christian, there’s certainly nothing appealing about me, and I don’t have any special knowledge. Morons. Whatever, they can spout all the dire crap they want, it doesn’t change the fact that the modern church is a place of abuse and it’s entirely due to blathering idiots like John the piping Piper.
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Phil seemed to imply that he was responding to survivor bloggers.
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Got Hard strikes again.
Testimony from another of the eggs cracked to make the Perfect Christian Family Omelet. All for the Glory of an 80-something ManaGAWD with assorted sexual paraphilae (with looooong… waaaavy…. haaaair….) who never grew beyond 10 years old internally.
From the above, Dash is male. It’s not only FEMALE eggs who get cracked for the Perfect Christian Family Omelet.
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@Lea:
Because The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrades.
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@Bunkababy:
Because Dash is being REAL.
Not rewordgitating “Offend Nobody” pablum like you hear so often.
@Ann:
Take it from someone who’s dabbled in fantastic fiction writing:
It’s the Strong emotions (like anger and rage) that put POWER behind the story. All three of my writings that wrote themselves and had IMPACT are Dark. (The trick is not letting the Strong and Dark emotions consume YOU in the process.) And the denial of those strong, REAL emotions is why Christianese fiction is all so “Stay Sweet” Saccharine Insipid.
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@Dash:
In a TIME interview years ago, the actor who starred in Mad Men lost it about fans who tell him they want to be like his on-screen character, Don Draper. And his response to them (from memory):
“You want to be like him? He’s one of the hamburgers that appear in his ad agency’s photo shoots and commercials — shiny and juicy on the outside, all dried out and rotten on the inside!”
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Carmen, I just realized who you were thinking I was talking about: Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty! It took me a while!
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JA – I’m sure Phil and Joe are referring to survivor bloggers, but let’s face it, at this point I partly fit that description myself. In any case they have no business commenting on any of us, and it pisses me off.
HUG, you always crack me up. Thanks for weighing in.
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Dash, I have no problem with the language you used. I doubt if there are enough vulgar words in the English language to describe how you feel. I can not imagine being raised in that environment. You do know that there are millions of us out here who would never dream of even treating a stray animal the way your parents treated you, don’t you?
Anger is okay, sometimes good. God was angry sometimes, and Jesus cleared the Temple ….knocking over tables. I think your anger is a form of righteous anger. Keep telling your story. People need to know what institutions like ATI and the people involved do to children and the lifelong repercussions. You have a battle to fight to protect others, and you have the ammunition to win. I hope you have the strength to defeat that monster that your parents beat into you for all those years.
The head trauma? Don’t give up on that either. The left side of my skull was bashed in in a car wreck when I was 18. I suffer a stroke at age 45. I’m not supposed to be able to walk and talk times two, but I do, and then some! Granted, I have not suffered repeated head injuries – 1 concussion, 1 contusion, and 1 major head trauma – but…. My MRIs really mess with the neurologists heads, if you know what I mean! Maybe yours will too.
Take care of your kitty cats.
Cats??? Cats????? Oh, for Pete’s sake! Go get a dog. Dogs are way better than cats!!!
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Lol, Nancy!! 😂😂
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I’ll take Dash’s real talk over the convoluted, imho straight-from-hell backhanded hate that comes from many church leaders such as Gothard any day. In all candor, it’s more like Jesus’ talk than the mealy-mouther crap we hear from politicians and most church leaders. But again, Dash, I sure do wish you didn’t throw Jesus out with these monsters. Because if there is no God, if it’s all just a random dance of atoms, then there is no justice, and Bill Gothard setting up a system in which children are abused is no different from Mother Theresa helping children. Please don’t throw Him out.
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@JulieAnne:
Of “PERSECUTION!!!!! RALLY ROUND THE BEARD, BOYS!!!!!!!” fame.
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Somethng about word-associating with the names/handles here:
@Lea – Your handle is also the name of Kimba the White Lion’s girlfriend in the original Japansese.
@Dash – I cannot read your handle without thinking of a fiercely-competitive tomboy of a cute pegasus mare:
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Dear Dash: First, I want to say that I am so, so sorry for what happened to you as a child. There can be no defense for such wickedness. As a child, you should have experienced kindness, compassion, gentleness, concern, patience, along with love expressed in hugs, kisses and wonderful memories that bonded you with your parents. Instead, only pain and misery flood the memories of your youth. How heart-breaking!
Next, I want to say I understand your angry reaction toward Christianity, since it was in that context in which you were abused. I, too, am a survivor from a Christian cult that used guilt and shame to pound people into submission. The leader in that cult showed disgust toward children and there were several instances in which children were mistreated and abused. In fact, the son of the cult leader ended up in the hospital with bruises and welts due to extreme physical discipline, at the order and instruction of his evil father. That poor son’s plight at this stage in his life, reminds me very much of you, dear Dash. Rigid, self-righteous, condemning, judgmental religion can only inflict harm upon people in such controlling belief systems. There can be no good fruit that comes out of such Dark Places of spiritual and physical torment.
When my husband and I left that Dark Place, we had to work through and process so much that had happened. I felt so much anger and frustration due to all the madness that resided there. Most Christians could not understand or help me. Too often, the message is to suppress one’s feelings, forgive, and move on. This is a recipe for disaster! If we do not process what happened to us in cases of physical and/or spiritual abuse, the results of squelching our true selves and presenting a false face to others, will result in mental, emotional and often physiological manifestations. To thine own self be true is an adage that I have embraced in this regard.
Dash, I wish you peace, comfort, and hope, and yes – pray – that you will arrive at a place of deep healing within your soul and body. Be rest assured that there are many people – many Christians as well – who are empathetic toward you and care about the pain you have and are experiencing. Do not go gently into that good night, my friend!
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Wait whats wrong with john piper?
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He’s a #}}%%^#.
MOD NOTE: JA removed Carmen’s original word. Carmen, can you please elaborate why he’s a #}}%%^.? I want this blog to be a place where people can learn from each other. Some people don’t know why Piper is a #}}%%^. 😀
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John the Pied Piper has been spouting heartless and misogynistic nonsense for years now, Kittycat. Just to note a few examples: He is on record as saying that wives should “endure abuse for a season” from their spouses. He also claims that it’s wrong for a divorced wife to remarry, even if her previous marriage has been a nightmare of violence.
It also doesn’t help that Piper refuses to say a bad word about Mark Driscoll (one of the most blatantly bullying “pastors” still active), and teaches that God “ordains” all of the bad things that happen to us “for His own glory”. Which means that God also ordained all of the evil things that were done to Dash. I don’t blame Dash for refusing to put his trust in a “god” like that.
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Mark Driscoll got forcibly driven out of Seattle for a reason, way to go Seattle. And John Piper is a raving lunatic, as is the entirety of the patriarchal “gospel” Coalition. Those people are heretical wankers.
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I’m sure someone will be along presently to give us the usual “touch not God’s anointed” speech for daring to speak against John-The-Piping Piper. I’m very fond of that speech, it’s so comically ignorant and deliciously stupid.
The upside of teaching people never to question the belief system you feed them is that you get a vast number of stupid followers who are easily manipulated. The downside of teaching people never to question the belief system you feed them is that, well, you get a vast number of stupid followers who are easily manipulated. Good times.
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Dash, I half expected KAS to have chimed in by now, with his typical tone-police scolding. Hopefully, he knows better than to mess with you.
More seriously, it’s very hard to read about all the sufferings you’ve endured, and what they’ve done to you, in both body and mind. Love, affection, affirmation, security, peace of mind, normal human relationships — those were your birthright. For anyone to take those from you is criminal; for your parents to have done so is too cruel for words.
I hope you can find a treatment for your physical ailments, one that will allow you to live normally. I hope you can learn how to cope with the scars on your heart. I hope you can find some joy in life someday — no one should go a whole lifetime without it.
Thank you for taking the courage to share your pain with us.
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I thought KAS was female (?)
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@ServingKidsInJapan:
The guy’s a five-foot-four wet noodle of a Drama Queen; I’m sure the only reason he stomps on wimmen is that he’s smaller and weaker than other men. (As well as more hysterical than most women.) He tried that to a guy, he’d get folded up and stuffed into a dumpster.
And he also has to make sure the wimmen stay smaller and weaker than himself; hence his wet-my-panties fear of “Muscular Women” who’d also fold him up and stuff him in a dumpster.
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@Carmen:
“Girls will be boys and boys will be girls,
It’s a mixed-up mumbled-up shook-up world…”
— The Kinks, “Lola”
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I’ve had several ‘altercations’ with her. If I’d thought it was a man, I’d have REALLY unloaded!
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I don’t recall there being a gender reveal here. Take your pick.
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@HUG. “The guy’s a five-foot-four wet noodle of a Drama Queen; ”
the first time I read that, I saw “DRAG QUEEN”!!!!
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At this time for the record I want to make it clear that I’m a male. Although Scott is a screen name ( incase I want to post Google reviews ) I’m all male here.
I do get my eye brows threaded though, when they get too bushy and before they look like hedges.
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Thank you, for sharing that important information, Scott. Now I will not stay awake tonight.
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Serving Kids said,
You and me both!
(But tomorrow is another day.)
For those wondering about KAS’ gender.
I used to think KAS was female, until the last thread or two, where KAS mentioned KAS has a wife. I assume from this therefore that KAS is a male.
As for me, you should be able to guess from my screen name what I am, but to make it more clear, I will let singer Tom Jones tell you who I am: on You Tube:
“She’s A Lady”
Though I am not dating Tom Jones. 🙂
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I have a number of eyebrow hairs that are a good 1.5″ long, I’m very proud of them.
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For Scott1253 and Dash:
Cute or creepy? Make-up artist divides social media with bizarre new ‘Feather Eyebrow’ trend that has been branded both ‘cool’ AND ‘gross’
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Thank you for writing this Dash. The most important part was how you explained how Gothard was willing to inflict so much pain in order to promote his materials and increase his sales. People need to understand that. It’s pure stage craft – something we see far too much of in the multi-billion dollar mega church business.
Too often people do not understand or appreciate how much evil is perpetrated so the men at the top can amass power and fortune. It is the flock who need to stop making millionaires out of such people. As long as we allow “Christian Leaders” to amass obscene power, celebrity and wealth, the “Christian Industry” will continue to attract heartless charlatans who have no morals or conscience when it comes to what they will say or do to make the big bucks. Your story illustrates that more heart-breakingly than anything I have ever read before.
These men aren’t shepherds, they are plain crooks. In what other segment of society do we revere people whose only desire is to fleece people in order to achieve vast wealth through immoral means? Do we embrace embezzlers? Do we idolize bank robbers? Do we respect and revere sleazy Wall Street insider traders or con men like Bernie Madoff? Do we hang on the every word and buy the books of Drug Cartel Lords? “Oh, I can’t believe how marvelous El Chapo’s newest Thomas Nelson book is! He’s so anointed!” Then why do we celebrate these men who make millions pimping the name of Jesus Christ? There is no scenario where Christ Himself would approve of people using his name to generate obscene personal wealth. So if we claim to follow Jesus, why would we support something He would condemn?
It is sick beyond words what happened to you. I applaud your courage. I hope the doctors can provide you with more help and I hope your kitties give you some good restorative nuzzles tonight.
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Definitely creepy!
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I see you removed my word for John Piper, JA. Here are a few quotes from the asshat.
“It’s right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases.”
““To the degree that a woman’s influence over a man, guidance of a man, leadership of a man, is personal and a directive, it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order. To an extent, a woman’s leadership or influence may be personal and non-directive or directive and non-personal, but I don’t think we should push the limits. I don’t think those would necessarily push the limits of what is appropriate. That is my general paradigm of guidance.” (In other words, women are not suitable for the majority of jobs and certainly not suited for any job that has any kind of influence over a man)
Also, wasn’t it JP who brought that filthy-mouthed, despicable Mark Driscoll, into ‘the fold’?? And expressed no regrets after his ‘demise’?
Need I write more?
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I don’t know for sure myself. My assumption was that KAS was male. His way of talking often seemed so much like mansplaining — and I’m a guy.
If I’m wrong, KAS is free to correct me.
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Yeah, Piper was Driscoll’s mentor, for sure. And he did actually express regrets for the failure of Mars Hill. In one interview, Piper bemoaned that Driscoll’s collapse was “a defeat for evangelicalism… for Reformed theology, for complementarianism”. Not a word of regret or even concern for all the people hurt by that disgusting bully.
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Ha! I had the same impression of KAS, although I generally dislike that term. It does fit pretty well at times, though.
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@ServingKidsInJapan:
i.e. Completely tunnel-visioned on The Cause.
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‘Barbed wire brows’ is the latest polarizing, spiky eyebrow trend to hit the internet
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@Scott1253 “I do get my eye brows threaded though, when they get too bushy and before they look like hedges.”
Do you get your chest waxed, too?
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No. Hair on my chest I consider, normal. Eye brows like hedges , not so much.
Besides, they would need a weedeater to clear my chest.
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@Daisy:
It’s Babylon-5.
Lacquer the hair into a transverse crest and you have a Centauri from Babylon-5.
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I’ve read spiritual abuse books, but haven’t seen a good explanation of the cycle of shame. I think this is pertinent to both Piper and Gothard.
We as humans tend to carry shame. Our response to that shame tends to follow one of two cycles, and sometimes a combination of both. The “inferior” cycle is a cycle of acceptance. We wear shame as who we are, then we do works to atone for that shame, yet we never remove the shame, so we’re stuck in an endless cycle. I think this is the Evangelical view of all non-leaders and especially women. We are evil and we need to work harder to try and please God because, obviously, God knows how wretched we are. The “superior” cycle is a cycle of denial of shame. We still have the shame, but as long as we can hide that shame from others, we can act as if we’re just fine. As our flaws become more and more obvious, we use more abusive techniques to keep other people from bringing our flaws to light. This is the Evangelical mold for leaders. It doesn’t matter how abusive, manipulative or controlling our leaders are, as long as they are able to portray a spotless image of themselves.
So, Piper and Gothard are both “superior” shame-bearers. As long as they can baffle us with their spiritual sounding lingo, and as long as they have swarms of deceived blind followers, they can convince themselves that they’re really better than everyone else.
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Then, of course, there is this –
The very concept of eternal punishment and judgment by an entity who created us this way, knowing we would fall, and placed in an already fallen world is a vile and evil story in itself.
“Created Sick
Commanded to be Well”
Awful stuff. My stomach rebels. How many people are struggling with this doctrine? (as well they should) 😦
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Mark, have you read Brene Brown? She has a ted talk and several books, but she researches shame. I enjoyed reading her thoughts about this.
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In defense of Carmen who is right about John Piper……..
Piper treats the Bible like a magic act where he pulls the rabbit out of the hat by twisting verses into whatever he wants them to be. When I read his books, they felt exactly like the magician putting on a show, distracting the audience from what he’s actually doing.
Many of you have heard this before but for the new blog readers here’s the evidence:
1) The famous video where he tells women to submit to physical violence
Note: Piper has never apologized for that total insanity. He just blamed everyone for not understanding him better.
2) Here’s more crazy quotes from Piper, including the one Carmen was referring to:
https://www.amazon.com/review/R2VX1SIIUS1IIM/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00265VGGO
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Dash,
Just wanted you to know that you are not alone. There’s a whole community here that wants to hear your perspective, appreciates your brutal honesty and hopes that you will hang in there for much more than “the next five years.” Sometimes the best revenge is to keep living so you can keep bugging the right people.
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Avid Reader,
I had assumed your moniker was in deference to Julie Anne — that you were an avid reader of hers. 🙂 When I clicked on your link, however, I read through your list of reading materials and the vast number of reviews you have written. It’s impressive! Good for you – I wish I had time to read that prolifically! The reviews I read through were extremely concise, intuitive and informative; you are very good at them.
Also, you must realize you are one of a very small number of people who would defend me (on this blog) for any reason — a dubious distinction. 😉
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Carmen,
Thank you! You are right that John Piper is an {{!&$#%}} ARROGANT PRICK. The sooner his followers find out what he really thinks, the better.
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Dash, I just wanted to say, I’m so sorry to hear what you went through. No child deserves to be treated that way, and the fact that it was in the name of religion just makes it that much more horrific, in my opinion.
Take care.
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Thank you all for your comments. Avid Reader and Carmen, I’m with you guys on John-The-Piping-Pipsqueak and The “gospel” Coalition and all the other degenerate patriarchal trash out there. Those people are all slime.
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Slime is an appropriate word!
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OK, so Dash is more diplomatic. I still prefer the adjectives used by myself and Avid Reader. 🙂
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Ok, full confession here. My Word Press phone app was not working right. It was stuck, forcing me to leave a comment – that last comment to Dash. hahaha Serves me right. I turned my phone off and back on again and it’s still stuck. I guess I’ll have to delete the app and start from scratch.
And now in the meantime it looks like I’m showing favoritism on my blog. haha 🙂
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“I half expected KAS to have chimed in by now, with his typical tone-police scolding”
I do not expect Dash, as a militant unbeliever (on his own confession) or rejector of what he sees as Christianity to abide by biblical or Christian standards of communication.
I don’t regard it as ‘tone policing’ to expect professing believers to hold to such standards. Both Jesus himself and the apostles he sent have given clear guidelines on this, it’s not hidden in the Greek.
The use of coarse or dirty jokes, or malicious language damages the person using it. This kind of posting is hay. wood and stubble and will not survive the judgement seat of Christ. Some blog comment sections are 90% this kind of nonsense.
Reading such drivel damages the reader. I cannot but believe some of it will stick and contaminate. There is sometimes very obvious group-think going on, each commenter seeking to outdo the others in how outrageous they can express themselves.
Any blog or group of commenters who are countering what they regard as errors of doctrine or abusive bahaviour stemming from such doctrine should not only hold to Christian standards themselves, but should be more careful to do so. If they don’t, they undermine the very object of their blogging. They make their critique something incredible, and lose the very audience they seek to gain. Team Pyro have come close to this in their criticisms of charismatics, for example.
You need only look at this thread and comments on John Piper. Calling him an ARROGANT PRICK will not convince anyone of any errors in Piper’s teaching. And I’ve seen far worse when it comes to Piper. Bad language is more often than not a substitute for a good argument.
You can only shake your head in bewilderment when potty-mouthed commenters weigh in on potty-mouthed Driscoll. They have become the very thing they are criticising!
Apart from the whole damage this kind of language does to Christain witness, it actually enables the continuation of abuse and error by virtue of uncontrolled emoting taking the place of reasoned argument, or one group of abusers or blatantly disobedient believers criticising another, and I don’t blame any devotees of the celebrity preaching circuit from not believing angry and verbally abusive commenting. It is 100% counterproductive.
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Just couldn’t help yourself, eh KAS? Since you don’t mind expressing your opinion, I’m assuming you won’t have a problem with mine. Your comment is high-minded, condescending, and typical of those who cannot stand any kind of criticism – of their ideas or those of their mentors.
Here’s what I have learned from four years on blogs. Those who express themselves angrily and with ‘potty language’ are reacting that way because of personal hurt (the likes of which most of us can only imagine), extreme frustration and resentment. Perhaps you might consider this the next time you decide to admonish adults.
It’s called compassion. Try extending some.
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Oh, and P.S. If your comments are meant to be defending Piper’s or Driscoll’s toxic beliefs, it certainly says quite a bit about YOU. You might also think about that.
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Carmen – you need to think more. There is nothing in my post that says criticism is wrong in itself. I am at a complete loss to see how anything I said could be construed as a defence of Piper or Driscoll. Indeed the opposite is implied.
I get it that people have been hurt in churches for one reason or another. I don’t have a problem with being angry over this. It’s when the anger and hurt eventually morph into self-pity and bitterness expressed in inappropriate commenting that I see red. This doesn’t help anyone. I’ve known the battle with self-pity and bitterness over ‘unfair’ treatment in churches myself. But I know of nowhere in the New Testament where a group who could be considered the equivalent of ‘survivors’ are exempted from the general teaching on dealing with anger and keeping control over the tongue. ‘Be angry but don’t sin’ – that’s the point.
I had to smile at your criticism of my posting style – this is an observable phenomenon in the watchblog realm regarding dissenting opinions in lieu of an argument. I possibly come across as more direct and unfeeling in style than would be the case if you met me over a coffee and talked about this – but that is not the point. The NT doesn’t allow us to indulge in coarse or malicious language for any reason, and this is damaging to all concerned for the reasons I have given above.
The same bible that doesn’t allow Driscoll his potty sermoning is the same bible that doesn’t allow his critics to either. There is no need to make it more complicated than that.
I have no desire to get into a long argumentative debate on this. If you can’t see how so much commenting by professed believers across the discernment internet comes across to the impartial observer there is little I can say to convince you.
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Your virtue-signalling has been noted.
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What do you mean by that, Carmen?
I was about to post but you beat me to it that saying you should ‘think more’ was a bit mean on my part. But I do think you should pay a bit more attention to what someone has actually said,
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KAS, please don’t attempt to police the tone here. I’m confused as to why you think Carmen should hold to Christian standards when she is not a Believer.
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Oh, there you are, KAS. Took you long enough.
And yet Jesus and those who knew Him best did exactly that by calling some of their opponents “snakes”, “sons of hell”, “broods of vipers”, “dogs”, etc. etc. This isn’t
“hidden in the Greek”, either. I’ve made this point to you on other threads and, to my memory, you’ve yet to respond to it.
I have soooo much more I want to say to you, KAS. But I’m vacationing right now, and it’s getting late here, so it might have to wait a bit. For now, I’d like to point out the obvious: Since entering this particular thread, your first and only words have been to upbraid us for our language and our attitude. You haven’t offered a word of comfort or compassion to Dash. Not even after learning more of the evil he’s endured at the hands of his own family, or the constant suffering that’s still a part of his life.
And I have to wonder: Why not?
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Virtue signalling: Telling everyone on this thread how good you are – a CHRISTIAN, mind you – and that you would NEVER use potty language, no matter how angry you got. Aren’t you just wonderful?
People are human. They make mistakes. They get angry, they swear sometimes, they do things they must apologize for. It has NOT ONE THING to do with whether or not a person is a christian. In fact, that definition is hard to pin down; which makes it meaningless in my books. I know you feel that the word gives you some sort of moral superiority, but – trust me – I much prefer people who swear once in awhile to those who show zero compassion for others.
You are not the ‘designated adult’ on this thread, by the way. We are most certainly not children.
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KAS, I was there once. I believed the true calling of my Christian life was to be able to divorce myself from my emotions and only think rationally. To respond calmly when verbally assaulted. Emotions were what the lower forms of humanity resorted to when they were at the limits of their ability to think.
The end result of that, for me was decades of anger that were bottled up and came out at the people I loved the most – my wife and children. I am still struggling not to hurt, emotionally and verbally, those closest to me in response to years of emotional and verbal abuse at the hands of my family and church. I am also struggling not to run away from those emotions but to face them and deal with them.
As such, I hope you recognize that trying to police the kinds of raw emotions we see here is counterproductive. Hiding behind rationalism (I say ‘shoving our emotions in a box’) doesn’t help anyone. I assume you are a mature Christian. The mature Christian doesn’t walk on the other side of the road to avoid touching the muck and mire and filth we see in the world. It’s the world of the Pharisees where we stand in judgment over our fellow sinner. It’s the kingdom where we become a friend of the sinners rather than their judge. My pastor likes to say, “Our purpose in life is not to save Christians and then tell them to ‘keep their noses clean'”.
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The problem is that you think YOU are the one who should be making that determination, if someone else doesn’t meet whatever standard you’ve made up in your head, and uses language that you don’t approve of (even stuff as mild as brood of vipers, dogs, etc which is obviously ‘biblical’).
And this is all you ever want to talk about and people have noticed. So it gives the impression that you care a whole lot more about tone than you do content.
And you repeatedly act as if tone is the only thing making these people like Piper and Gothard and Driscoll not repent when the truth is they don’t care. At all. And tone makes no difference here, because any disagreement will be quickly labeled whatever results in them being able to happily dismiss it and act and speak as they like.
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For the record, I was not a swearing person before blogging. And then I read the stories. I had to do something with the anger. And every once in a while, a swear word is the appropriate way for me to release anger at the way victims are treated. I actually think that God is okay with it. At least He gets it.
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They’re words. Big deal. Like I said, give me a person who swears over a cold-hearted, dispassionate, ‘do-gooder’ any damned day.
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KAS,
I was at work when I replied to you and I wanted to expand on a few things raised by that convo.
I believe I have taken issue with remarks of yours on another thread and I seem to remember that it’s your “I know better than you do” attitude that I objected to on the other thread as well as this one.
YOU DON’T.
It seems to me that your underlying message has been – on this thread and the other – that because you’re a (real) christian, you get to criticize not only other christians but especially those who do not believe in the supernatural; it’s as if you’ve divided the world (the blog world, anyway) into “us” and “them”. That’s called tribalism, if you didn’t know. I’m not sure if you are aware of your hubris or not. It seems as if the mantle you’ve taken on somehow insulates you from the real world – you know, the one where most of us reside. The one where humanity stumbles along, doing the best they can to help each other out regardless of which god they happen to believe in or even if they don’t have any belief at all in ‘magic’ — is that characteristic (christian) the one that takes precedence (for you) over every other personal characteristic one might possess? If you think so, I feel bad for you.
You are not on a higher moral plain because you are a christian. Take a look around you – christians get divorced, they cheat on their spouses, they abuse others, they commit serious crimes, they get themselves incarcerated, they say outrageous things on a daily basis (I read their nasty comments every day on blogs), they are determined to strip women of their reproductive rights and if you want a very powerful example of their negative behaviour you might want to remind yourself that evangelicals (I assume they want to be referred to as christians) just voted someone who has the morals of an alley cat into the highest position one can attain, in your country. They’ve made a laughing stock of millions of others.
I don’t think the word ‘christian’ has the power you seem to think it has. Get off your high horse.
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Carmen, “they are determined to strip women of their reproductive rights”
Yes, until their daughters have an unwanted pregnancy, and then they quietly go to the abortion clinic. Sometimes even when daughters want to keep the child or give him up for adoption, the fathers do whatever it takes to get them there. Hypocrites!
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KAS, your words are stupid. Seriously. Good luck with all that nonsensical crap clanging around in your skull.
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Ha @ Dash! Get right to the point. It’s 500 words to say ‘be sweet’.
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I’m speechless, and feel like anything I say isn’t good enough. Except, have you considered getting a dog? I work with them, and they have helped my mental illness tremendously. The church screwed me up too. I had a nervous break down, because of everything.
Dogs have been a wonderful help to me.
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Dash: KAS, your words are stupid. Seriously. Good luck with all that nonsensical crap clanging around in your skull.
I have not addressed your testimony of suffering. I wasn’t sure whether I would make a bad situation worse. SKIJ has assumed this is because I don’t have any compassion.
I had considered adding to the posts giving you sympathy and saying how what you experienced isn’t from the God of Christianity. I thought they were loving, gracious and kind – so not all Christians are bad.
Someone at some time has got to go beyond this though. I don’t want to be the one, I’m not sure it’s my place. Much better done in person. Had I been able read your post on John Piper, bristling with hatred and wishing him ill – the very things that were behind your suffering, I might have been less reticent.
What had gone through my mind was that I have met and heard on two occasions men who have suffered very much more that you have – by a long way. If the grace of God was available to them – one was a holocaust survivor – to change them, then there is hope for everyone else not to let what evil others did to them become the dominating influence over the rest of their life and ruin it. Hope is a positive thing. I would like to try and offer it to you. The god you rail against I don’t believe in either, nor the revolting caricature of Christianity false teachers impart.
The real God seen in Jesus wants to give you a hope and a future, to do you good and not ill, but you won’t ever get to see this let alone experience it unless you have a change of mind and a change of heart. The God of the bible is compassionate and merciful and will one day right all the wrongs and injustice, but cannot simply let anyone off for their own wrong-doing, something true of everyone. You can be reconciled to this God. He doesn’t need to be reconciled to you.
I hope you will at least think this over rather than dismiss it as crap.
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JA KAS, please don’t attempt to police the tone here. I’m confused as to why you think Carmen should hold to Christian standards when she is not a Believer.
When I said I don’t expect unbelievers to abide by Christian standards, that included Carmen. Why shouldn’d it? But even Carmen as an unbeliever has the right to expect Christians to try to live up to the standards of speech and behaviour outlined in the NT. That is my point – I don’t want to tone police anyone, it’s not what I think that matters. It is now God views this and what will happen to it all at the judgement seat of Christ.
Mark: just for the record, if you read my post again you will see I have no problem with believers expressing righteous anger.
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“This doesn’t help anyone.”
KAS I was sexually abused the first ten years of my life by an extremely misogynistic southern baptist christian man.
Dash’s outrage and fury over the rampant, heartless, selfish, hateful, sexually sadistic, and sadism christians have relentlessly heaped on children has made me feel like I am not the only one who hates it and cares.
I am grateful for his post and words.
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“I have met and heard on two occasions men who have suffered very much more that you have – by a long way.”
Oh KAS. Your heartlessness, ignorance, selfishness, and Christian arrogance is showing. If I was still a Christian I would be ashamed of your minimizing Dash’s story and pain to make yourself feel better.
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Carmen, thank you. For some reason it wont let me like your post, but I rate it five stars.
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“I don’t regard it as ‘tone policing’ to expect professing believers to hold to such standards. Both Jesus himself and the apostles he sent have given clear guidelines on this, it’s not hidden in the Greek.” – KAS
Jesus was much more of a rebel than you give him credit for, KAS. And He used harsh, abrasive language that religious leaders found offensive.
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Oh look, your other favorite topic. People who hurt worse than you but behaved in a way I deem kas approved.
It’s not a contest. You don’t get to go around telling people this sort of thing. Sheesh!
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I see that KAS has shown up on this thread.
My life on this blog has improved since I began scrolling past his posts, trying not to read them 🙂
Though when I read other people’s posts, I see some of you speaking to KAS, and maybe even quoting snippets from his posts, so I do see bits and pieces here and there (unfortunately).
I can only guess KAS is condescendingly, sanctimoniously lecturing all of you, or certain folks in the thread, in a school marm manner that you….
Should be more gentle and kinder in your criticisms of John Piper, Bill Gothard, and whomever else – be more winsome towards abusive or arrogant blowhards. -?
eyeroll and LOL.
I bet KAS is also a champ at Jesus Juking.
((What Is) The Jesus Juke)
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