Clergy Sex Abuse, Divorce, It's All About the Image, Tullian Tchividjian

Tullian Tchividjian – Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and Spiritual Abuse

Tullian Tchividjian, Clergy Sex Abuse, Spiritual Abuse

Tullian Tchividjian, Clergy Sex Abuse, scandal, spiritual abuse
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This is a partial timeline of the situation involving Tullian Tchividjian. It focuses on his various publications since 2007 (if a book title appears twice, the first is a hardcover version and the second is paperback), his church ministry roles since 2009, and his publicly revealed illicit sexual involvements. We’re limiting the timeline to these topics and key events, to help focus attention on the overlaps between his ministries and publication writing periods that were paralleled by emotional and sexual grooming of women who were in some way within his sphere of influence.

The majority of this timeline was produced by Brad Sargent, who created the Resource Bibliography linked to below. He also used details that I (Julie Anne) had permission from the sources to reveal. I also added comments, mostly at the bottom of the post.

The select material that appears here comes from two sources.

  1. Some is already public. In most of these cases, the dates, publications, and any analysis can be found in the Resource Bibliography on System Issues Related to the Tullian Tchividjian Situation. Otherwise, links and quotes are noted in the text here.
  2. Other key details are based on the personal stories of women Tullian Tchividjian victimized, plus any documents these women have shared with us at Spiritual Sounding Board. NOTE: No names or personal details about these survivors of clergy sexual abuse are revealed here unless the women involved gave us their permission, or the details have already been made public.

Also note that additional personal details, documentation, and other survivors’ stories may be added here and/or in future blog posts if and when these women are ready to make them public. Please respect their right to do so in their timing, whether they choose this blog, elsewhere, or not at all. I have been communicating with some of these women for well over a year, and doing what I can to help them process their experiences, recover, and consider their options. Their personal well-being is my first priority, not pushing to get their story out.

Other notes about this timeline:

Three issues make things particularly difficult to follow in this case. First, sometimes the existence of sexual abuse perpetrated by Tullian Tchividjian has apparently been kept from people with spiritual authority over him who should have been told – the relevant churches, publishers, and other organizations. If they had known earlier, they could potentially have stopped his chain of victimization.

Second, sometimes authority figures have known about his illicit sexual involvement, but kept silent about it. Their cover-up allowed more women to be victimized while Tullian Tchividjian continued with his public ministry and book writing.

Third, sometimes the existence of the liaison became known but the details of the woman involved have not, so it has been too vague to investigate.

As of November 22, 2016, the accounts of two women who were groomed emotionally and sexually have been made public (Woman #1, Woman #3). Details on another victim (Woman #2) appear here for the first time, though her existence has been known publicly since March 2016.

UPDATE — THIS REPLACES THE PARAGRAPH IMMEDIATELY ABOVE: As of December 2, 2016, there is at least some public knowledge about each of the following six women that Tullian Tchividjian had some form of personal connection with — not all of them sexual involvements. Please read the details carefully about the extend of the connection in each case.

Our way of attempting to deal with these complexities is to talk about when the clergy sexual abuse occurred, some of the profile details of the women involved, when the abuse was revealed publicly, and who in authority may have known before it was revealed but said nothing. As you can see from the summary directly below, the stories quickly overlap and/or get interwoven. So, to make related people and events more visually noticeable, we are using several colors of type. Hopefully this helps.

Kim Tchividjian (Tullian’s first wife). They were married in 1994. In August 2015, he filed for divorce from her shortly after his sexual involvement with Woman #2, and around the same time he first contacted Woman #3 (“Lisa”). The divorce was finalized in March 2016, less than two weeks before the public revelation of his sexual involvement two years earlier with Woman #1.

Woman #1 – May through July 2014. She was not a congregation member under Tullian’s pastoring. She was married at the time. His relationship with her was only revealed publicly until March 2016 (although a mentor/friend and two church elders had known for two years but kept silent). This led to Tullian’s being fired from a ministry position at Willow Creek Presbyterian Church. (Note, this church is not connected with Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois.)

Woman #2/Rachel – April through June 2015. Rachel (her real name) was a congregation member under Tullian’s pastoring. She was married at the time. His relationship with her was revealed publicly in June 2015. This led to his resigning as Senior Pastor at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. In a series of posts from November 29-December 1, 2016, Rachel reported her account of Tullian’s emotional grooming, seduction, and the aftermath.

Woman #3/”Lisa” – June 2015 (approximately) through March 2016. She uses the pseudonym “Lisa” in the post of her story. Lisa was an acquaintance of Tullian’s. She was married at the time. According to her story, which was shared publicly November 22, 2016, Tullian was grooming her emotionally and using sexual innuendos. However, she cut off contact with him after the public revelation in March 2016 of his relationship two years earlier with Woman #1.

Woman #4/”Kara” – September 2014 through September 2016. Kara was an acquaintance of Tullian’s. She was divorced at the time. Her story was shared publicly November 23, 2016. She reports that Tullian was grooming her emotionally, sometimes communicated with sexual innuendo, and directed her to push back in social media on his critics. Kara challenged Tullian at points about the veracity of his statements, and ended contact around the time Tullian married Stacie Phillips. [This information added 12-2-2016.]

Stacie Phillips (Tullian’s second wife). According to “Lisa” – Woman #3Stacie Phillips befriended her in the summer of 2015, around the same time that Tullian claimed to be attempting to reconcile with his wife Kim (he filed for divorce from her August 22, 2015). Stacie Phillips eventually married Tullian about a year later, August 26, 2016.

Note that links appear in this color of blue, as usual.

UPDATE: December 15, 2016. An additional woman reportedly seduced by Tullian Tchividjian shares an overview of her experiences with him from October 2013 through August 2016, in a post on Spiritual Sounding Board: 1. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjian’s Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into 2013.

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July 8, 1994. Tullian Tchividjian and Kimberly Genna get married.

August 21, 2007. Book published – Do I Know God? (Multnomah).

April 12, 2009. There was a merger on Easter Sunday of New City Presbyterian Church, where Tullian Tchividjian was founding pastor, with Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, and installation of Tchividjian as Senior Pastor.

April 14, 2009. Books published – Do I Know God? and Unfashionable (Multnomah).

September 20, 2009. There was a vote on whether to retain Mr. Tchividjian as Senior Pastor; a majority voted in his favor.

April 23, 2010. Book published – Surprised by Grace (Crossway).

January 6, 2011. Book published – Don’t Call It a Comeback (Crossway).

October 14, 2011. Book published – Jesus + Nothing = Everything (Crossway).

June 5, 2012. Book published – Unfashionable (Multnomah).

October 1, 2012. Book published – Glorious Ruin (David C Cook).

October 1, 2013. Book published – One Way Love (David C Cook).

February 28, 2014. Book published – Surprised by Grace (Crossway).

March 1, 2014. Book published – Glorious Ruin (David C Cook).

May 2014. Controversy erupts between members of The Gospel Coalition and Tullian Tchividjian over the meanings, extent, and applications of “grace” – and over the public responses in defense of Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) leader C.J. Mahaney and relative silence on the cases of sexual abuse and alleged cover up. SGM has been the subject of much investigative reporting and sharing of survivors’ stories by spiritual abuse survivor bloggers and others. Therefore, the many individuals and organizations and blogs of interest get involved in the public conflict.

May through July 2014 – Tullian Tchividjian is involved sexually with Woman #1. She was married at the time, and was not a congregation member of Coral Ridge. This illicit relationship was revealed publicly about two years later in March 2016, and led the firing of Tullian Tchividjian from Willow Creek Presbyterian Church, where he had been working on staff since late August or early September of 2015. Before the public revelation of Tullian’s clergy misconduct, it was known to Steve Brown (a friend and mentor to Tullian), to two elders at Coral Ridge who were subsequently removed for not disclosing this moral failure, to Kim Tchividjian, and eventually to Woman #2/Rachel.

September 2014 – Tullian Tchividjian meets Woman #4/”Kara” face to face for the first time, at a Christian products Exposition he invited her to on September 21-23. He had connected with her previously via social media. They stay connected through September 2016, mostly by social media, although there are periods of time where they were not communicating much. The account of her interactions with Tullian is presented in “Master of Manipulation” by Nate Sparks on November 23, 2016.

January 1, 2015. Books published – Jesus + Nothing = Everything (Crossway) and It is Finished (David C Cook).

April-May 2015 – emotional grooming of Woman #2/Rachel by Tullian Tchividjian. Part of this relationship with Woman #2/Rachel involved Tullian borrowing money from her and her husband to finance hiring a private investigator to find out if Kim Tchividjian was having an affair. If they paid on his behalf, he could prevent Kim from finding out. The couple used their credit card for payments on April 25, May 1, and May 6, 2015. Despite numerous attempts to get Tullian to repay these funds, and his promises to pay, he kept delaying. Finally, his repayment check for $11,130 arrived approximately 10 months later. It was dated March 18, 2016 – just several days after his illicit sexual relationship from May through July 2014 (with Woman #1) was finally made public. Many details of her experiences and reflections are in a comment by “Anonymous” on the November 22, 2016, post “Do Unto Others” by Nate Sparks. She has chosen to make her full story public on Spiritual Sounding Board, in a four-part series. Here is the link to Part 1.

End of May through end of June 2015 – Tullian Tchividjian is involved sexually with Woman #2/Rachel. She was married at the time, and also a congregational member at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.

June 2015. Tullian Tchividjian acknowledges his recent illicit sexual involvement with Woman #2/Rachel from his congregation. He resigns his position as Senior Pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. His pastoral credentials are revoked by the South Florida Presbytery. However, his sexual involvement with Woman #1 in 2014 is still not made public.

June 2015 (approximately) through March 2016 – emotional and sexual of Woman #3/”Lisa.” Tullian Tchividjian contacts Woman #3 –  who goes by the name “Lisa” in sharing her story in the post “Do Unto Others” by Nate Sparks on November 22, 2016. According to her narrative of the events, this was “in the late Spring of 2015, during the time shortly after he was officially fired from his position at coral Ridge Presbyterian Church” (June 2015, after the revelation of his clergy sexual abuse of Woman #2/Rachel). According to Lisa’s narrative, Tchividjian was grooming her emotionally and making sexual innuendos. Although this relationship did not cross the line into sexual involvement, Lisa was deeply involved in supporting him on social media and in challenging those who didn’t believe in the sincerity of his repentance process. Lisa was married at the time. QUOTE from the blog post:

Towards the end of their friendship, in the weeks leading up to Tullian’s second pastoral sex abuse scandal in March, 2016, Lisa began to distrust him. In light of this distrust, Lisa confronted Tullian about his lies. Instead of confessing and telling the truth, he doubled down on his deceptions and attempts to convince her that she shouldn’t believe what other people were telling her.

Even after the news broke, Tullian tried to lie to her. He tried to convince her that the whole thing was being blown out of proportion, that he had done nothing wrong. Lisa was devastated by his lies. She asked him to tell her the truth and asked why he deceived her. But Tullian offered only half-hearted apologies followed by further attempts to manipulate and control her.

Broken from the depths of his lies and realizing he was an abuser and not a friend, Lisa and her husband discussed the situation and decided it was best for her to no longer speak to Tullian.

Summer of 2015. The stories of “Lisa,” Stacie Phillips (whom Tullian married August 26, 2016), and Kim Tchividjian get intertwined. Lisa and Stacie connected because of their personal and social media support for Tullian. Again, quoting from Nate Sparks’ post, “Do Unto Others” on November 22, 2016:

[I]n the Summer of 2015. A woman by the name of Staci[sic] contacted Lisa and told her she was a friend of Tullian’s, and also lived in the same town as Lisa. She strongly pursued a friendship with Lisa, and regularly insisted the two of them should get together. After Lisa asked Tullian about Staci, and he confirmed that she was “a cool chick,” Lisa exchanged numbers with her. They began talking regularly and exchanged text messages frequently. They even went so far as to make plans to get together. However, Lisa was stood up each time by Staci. In one text exchange, Staci told Lisa that she was going to be in town, so they should get together. Lisa was appropriately confused and said, “I thought you live in my town…” Lisa soon learned that Staci had moved to Orlando for her job.

Orlando, of course, is where Tullian was living at the time. Lisa would later learn the two had begun dating during this time. Tullian and Staci married in September. [Correction: married August 26, 2016.]

This is especially curious, because Staci’s relationship with Tullian began in similar fashion to all the other women he targeted. In fact, he and Staci had been exchanging messages during the time Tullian claimed to be attempting to reconcile with his wife, Kim in the Summer of 2015, after his own sexual misconduct became public.

August 22, 2015. Tullian Tchividjian files for divorce from Kim.

Late August or early September 2015. Tullian Tchividjian is hired as Director of Ministry Development by Willow Creek Presbyterian Church. (The exact date is uncertain, as Tullian first notes a connection with the church in an August 30 tweet, but the news becomes public in a news article update on September 4.) Controversy erupts over multiple issues, such as whether this is too soon to be back in “ministry,” whether there has been real repentance and restoration, and whether this is a platform/public leadership ministry or not. The church says no rules were broken in the hiring.

February 2016. Tullian Tchividjian’s Liberate Network was relaunched with nine board members. (He was not on the board.)

March 2, 2016. The divorce between Tullian and Kim Tchividjian is final.

March 2016. In mid-March 2016, another earlier – but not confessed – situation of sexual misconduct by Tullian Tchividjian (with Woman #1 from 2014) is revealed to his church and to Liberate Network leaders, and he acknowledges the sin. His employment with Willow Creek Presbyterian is terminated immediately. On March 16, five of the nine members of the Liberate Network Board resign, and two days later the four remaining Board members announce the cancellation of the 2017 Liberate conference and the dissolution of the organization.

April 9, 2016. Warren Throckmorton posts, Is There a Comeback In the Works for Tullian Tchividjian? Tullian Tchividjian spoke/“shared” at Spring Hills Community Church in California. This is just three weeks after the dramatic public disclosure of his sexual misconduct from 2014.

August 25, 2016. The day before Tullian Tchividjian and Stacie Phillips get married, Kim Tchividjian tweets a status that says, “Tonight is hard. Tomorrow will be harder. But God.”

August 26, 2016. Tullian Tchividjian and Stacie Phillips get married. This appears to be a turning point in his “return to ministry.”

September 6, 2016. Warren Throckmorton posts, Things I Learned Today: The Mark Driscoll, Tullian Tchividjian, and Dustin Boles Edition. “Tullian Tchividjian got remarried sometime over the weekend of 8/26. He has been in Texas and is working on a book.” This is apparently a book to be published by David C Cook, which published five previous titles by Tullian Tchividjian.

September 23, 2016. ExPastor.com posts the article, God is Not Done with You Yet. And Neither Are We, by Bo Lane. Four days later, ExPastor.com posts an article by Tullian Tchividjian himself, The Freedom in Losing it All, in which he states he considered suicide. Online response to this apparent come-back into the public eye is mixed. As far as who contacted whom first, an October 3, 2016, post by ExPastor Executive Director Greg Atkinson on his blog states the following: “When Tullian Tchividjian reached out to us and I talked with him on the phone …” (What Grace Means to Me.) After Tullian’s ExPastor.com article is posted, Woman #4/”Kara” continues confronting him about the veracity of his statements; she eventually ends contact with him.

October 31, 2016. Tullian Tchividjian presents a sermon at Spring Hills Community Church, Santa Rosa, CA.

September through November 2016. News articles and blog posts about Tullian Tchividjian’s apparent relaunch into ministry appear, including analysis comparing some of his older and more recent public statements, and the narrative account of “Lisa” about his apparent emotional and sexual grooming of her starting in the summer of 2015.

UPDATE: December 15, 2016. An additional woman reportedly seduced by Tullian Tchividjian shares an overview of her experiences with him from October 2013 through August 2016, in a post on Spiritual Sounding Board: 1. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjian’s Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into 2013.

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Some final thoughts:

I have made my opinion known that I consider Tullian Tchividjian to be a sexual predator, and that his behaviors involve both clergy sexual abuse and spiritual abuse for taking advantage of women within his sphere of ministry influence – whether they were in his own congregation, associated with his Liberate Network or its events, and/or part of his social media support system.

I believe Tullian Tchividjian’s actions disqualify him from ministry roles, and from having a platform as a “Christian celebrity” who is supposedly representing Jesus Christ in public and in publications. I hope that potential media sources, publishers, ministries, and churches will take in the details of what he has drawn in and harm these sisters in Christ. I hope individuals and institutions will stop excusing his actions with “grace,” and stop giving him a platform that perpetuates his influence to continue this pattern. If they fail to do that, aren’t they then knowing accomplices to his vices?

I plan to continue investigating for answers to questions that still remain about Tullian Tchividjian’s connections with women and his alleged grooming of them for sexual relationships. And there are also issues about his spurring of people to take his side on social media, and whether/when a next book is forthcoming from (apparently) David C Cook. Meanwhile, as the situation continues to unfold, we at Spiritual Sounding Board will also do all we can to listen to, support, and minister to those who feel victimized by his actions.

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Regarding edits and additions: As noted at the beginning of this post, details and analysis may added. Corrections will also be made as we become aware of them. They will be noted here if substantial.

11-24-2016. Correction: March 18, 2016, was the date on the payment check, not the date the check was received.

191 thoughts on “Tullian Tchividjian – Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and Spiritual Abuse”

  1. THOT,

    Thank you for giving some very specific examples that help demonstrate how wide spread these issues are in the body of Christ.

    However, we need to get some facts straight.

    There’s no evidence at all that Paul Crouch had a homosexual affair. Those were accusations spread by Lonnie Ford.

    From what I saw, I have a hard time believing Lonnie’s accusations on that one. Just didn’t make any sense.

    Like

  2. Avid Reader: Contact Trinity Foundation, Pete Evans for the truth in Dallas, TX.
    Did you read the Article 9/19-20/2004 on TBN Empire in Los Angeles Times (total of 6 pages) and did you read: “Losing My Religion” by William Lobdell (it’s in detail in the book). Note: Paul Sr. wasn’t allowed to do program for 2 years because of scandal. Amazing, how we as people don’t want to see and or believe the truth. Know people for years that tried to correct the Crouches to no avail. Contact Bill/Jackie Alnor also on all their information on Crouches and it made Christianity Today. It also, made the L.A. Times and they couldn’t be sued for libel, slander, deformation of Character because it was truth. Google: “Held at Gunpoint: scandal rocks biggest christian network (2/4/2015 @ 1:14 p.m. by Bob Unruh). Just Google scandals on TBN and homosexual affair, lawsuits. Made Orange County Register also (years of). Trinity Foundation, Dallas TX has YEARS of files and truth! Charisma didn’t even want to believe the truth they did an editorial/article about it! Why do we not want to see our leaders as sheep=people?

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  3. THOT,

    We are on the same page in so many ways. You and I are both good skeptics. We do our own research, test evidence, and evaluate credibility. We never just believe rumors but look things up.

    My point is that the further you dig on Lonnie Ford, the more it looks like he figured out an easy way to make $400,000 by accusing Paul Crouch. His story just doesn’t hold water but California is a such litigious state that we see people filing frivolous lawsuits all the time and making all kinds of money because the cost of litigation is so high that its just cheaper to pay the settlement than fight it out in the court system.

    Now you made several good references to real cases. However, there are issues with the organization that you mentioned—
    Trinity Foundation in Dallas, TX that was founded by Ole Anthony
    (not to be confused with TBN of Santa Ana, CA—totally different organizations).

    If anyone’s interested, here’s an article with some background history on that organization.
    http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/the-cult-of-ole-6406297

    According to the article:
    “More than a dozen former Trinity members interviewed by the Dallas Observer agree that Trinity (Foundation of Dallas) bears many cult-like traits:

    1) Zealous commitment to a domineering leader not accountable to any authority.

    2) Discouragement or punishment of dissent and doubt.

    3) Use of mind-altering techniques such as denunciation sessions–the infamous hot seats.

    4) Dictation by leadership of how followers should act, sometimes in great detail.

    5) Breakdown of personal boundaries, such as denying members permission to marry.

    6) Encouraging a sense of elitism or special status for the group.

    7) Fostering an “us vs. them” mentality.”

    ————
    Ok, now we’re getting off topic on this thread so let’s try to get back to the main discussion here. 🙂

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  4. Daisy: It’s NOT good (tip of the iceberg). “from beloved granddaughter to exiled accuser: Brittany Koper and TBN-June 8, 2012 (updated 8/21/2013). Teri Sforza.
    OCWeekly, Feb. 12, 2009 “Oh Heavenly Father” read the article and ties in with this article: Gay Engineer, Trinity Broadcasting, settle harassment suit-OC 3/30/2010 (updated 8/21/2013) by Teri Sforza
    Ex-Worker Accusing TBN Pastor Says He Had Sex to Keep His Job-Los Angeles Times 9/22/2004
    “Top 5 Anti-Gay Ministers Accused Of Being Homosexual” newsone.com (by cganemccalla)
    “Former TBN Employee Alleges Gay Tryst With Paul Crouch” Christianity Today
    “The Sad Saga of Two Pentecostal Pauls – (www.christianfaith.com).
    TBN’s Paul Crouch Pays Homosexual Lover $425,000 Hush Money Texe Marrs (www.texemarrs.com).
    Yes, read about the rape of 13 year old and the behavior of the dysfunctional family that money mattered more than people=family. Friend called from back East & Tustin, CA and said O.C.Register and OCWeekly doing lot’s of articles on TBN Scandals/cover-up of late when Paul Jr. resigned and Granddaughter going public=ALL NOT GOOD (hey, look at when they stole manuscript from Sylvia Fleener? and made a movie=L.A. Times took it public as well as Trinity Foundation=years going on) and they called themselves Christians; making money off of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit who doesn’t get a dime or a penny!
    Per Mr. Leonard of Wall Watcher’s some interview he gives them an “F” for accountability. Ask Ole Anthony/Pete Evans of Trinity Foundation who tapes their broadcast daily and for years for accountability they have their “Hall of Shame” that they go after to NO AVAIL. It’s WORSE than everyone knows. Know P.H. confronted them brutually before he left; an employee who I considered Prophetic along with M.M.
    “Why Paul and Jan can’t escape accountability” 3/15/2013 Steve Strang of Charisma. “Recent Pentecostal Scandals”-Way of Life Literature (www.wayoflife.org)! & “List of Christian evangelist scandals” under WordPress.com (letmetellyouthis). “Private Jets, 13 mansions and a 100000 mobile home..dailymail.uk 3/23/2012 *news article #2119493” & “Televangelist Jan Crouch dies aged 78 in Florida after…dailymail uk #3620249.
    “Scandal at Trinity Broadcasting Network” by stevenmcollins WordPress 3/27/2012.
    Know people that worked for them, left YEARS ago and confronted them then; they had a complete and utter disdain for correction=building kingdom/dynasty to themselves=god’s unto themselves. Employees were coming forward that the Paul/Jan were praying for people to die that came against their ministry and taking pride in that 5 Lawyers died of Cancer and bragging about that wanted accountability for all of the above and more over the years (heads of church leadership knew this at the time). God gives us ALL a long time to repent. I think of where God put Saul (King Saul) to death believe in I Chronicles 10:13-14 (KJV). It’s NOT like they haven’t made the news for years and could have told the truth, lived in truth instead of lies about the money which was covered in L.A. Times 9/19-20/2004 article and or information in “Onward Christian Soldier” by Wm Lobdell or his UTube Video on “Losing My Religion” the abuses of TBN and others along with his excellent write of a book; look at what he went through trying to expose truth! He like so many, wanted abuse of money/lies to come out.

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  5. Avid Reader: By the way: Did you go down to Dallas, TX and check them out? Well, I did and I seen the files, seen how they work; spent time with them and what they do and yes Paul/Jan and so many other ministries would not like them; they are great people and help their neighborhood, poor*. WE NEED MORE GROUPS LIKE THEM. Read: “How Benny Hinn Became Our Wacky Neighbor” by John Bloom. JUDGE FRUIT! In fact, I called David Wilkerson up and also wrote him, list created to report church abuse to and said NOT going to reveal what seen that they needed to watch it for themselves CD’s, articles BUT IT’S NOT GOOD for TBN, or Benny Hinn and or anyone else. I’ve been at it a long time myself (been giving report church abuse articles to list created of report church abuse to, part of the list is on ripoffreport.com (search box: john paul jackson) Tammy’s 1st Lament I believe. They’ve been hearing/seeing items since early 2000 hardcore and David Wilkerson since late 70’s (was exposing my former very evil, abusive “assassins of their god” church) and had 5 single parents leave L.A./O.C. churches due to wrong advice leave and kill themselves and “Ten Lies The Church Tells Women by J. Lee Grady and Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” by Johnson/Van Vonderan based on former AoG Cult. As “Don’t Call Me Brother by Austin Miles (based on cult as a whole). *I’m NOT going into the lies, so many lies of TBN of where the money went and who they helped; usually you have to hear and research for yourself to believe. Have you ever investigated the TOTAL WORTH of TBN, what they own, worth, total property, T.V. Stations, Land, Ranches, Homes, Planes, Vehicles, Boats, Homes, Empires, Camps=ALL OF IT AND OVERSEAS hiding under the guise of 501c3. Jan talked about Orphans in Haiti, really wonder how much money went to them of what they took in and spent on themselves? What if they were worth OVER 12-15 Billion what would you say then? What was their overall fruit? Majority of Christians are brainwashed idiots, that cannot, will NOT and choose NOT to think for themselves and or research a matter (used to be one, not anymore)!

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  6. P.S. Avid Reader: Would have stayed and worked with Trinity Foundation, Dallas TX because they are transparent and real and as iron sharpens iron and what a real church community should look like and more! They were living “True Fellowship” by Art Katz to the unth degree=wonderful!

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  7. THOT,

    We can’t believe every rumor floating around on the internet.

    Dig deeper on Lonnie Ford. Look at what he said and did—he wanted easy money—that’s why he accused Paul Crouch.

    Think about it—with all the good looking people in the world, the accusation that Paul Crouch wouldn’t have been attracted to anyone other than Lonnie Ford is so hilarious that I’m surprised people still believe it.

    Paul Crouch was the type of person who didn’t want millions of dollars to be wasted on years of litigation so it would have made sense to pay a small settlement even when the story was totally bogus. California is a state that favors the plantiff so people get away with ridiculous lawsuits all the time.

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  8. THOT,

    If you had millions of dollars to spend, how would you get the Gospel to the whole world? Think about it.

    People are so quick to criticize TBN, but before we jump to conclusions we need to look at the big picture.

    Remember the one thing that Jesus told us to do was to get the Gospel into the whole world. While God calls different people to do different things, we are all responsible for the Great Commission. Now let’s talk about how that works.

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  9. THOT,

    How do we fulfill the Great Commission to get the Gospel to billions of people?

    TV and media is really the most effective way to reach people.

    How much money does it cost to do TV?

    According to IMBD, the average NCIS episode costs $2,500,000 to produce.
    TV requires sets, props, crews, cameras, equipment, etc. Its pretty expensive. That doesn’t even include the cost of TV stations, satellite, cable, etc.

    Now if the world has millions of dollars to produce movies and TV, why can’t God’s people have that kind of resources to share the Gospel?

    Like

  10. So if you had millions of dollars to get the Gospel out to the whole Earth, how would you spend it?

    If you put millions of dollars in the bank, what if someone at the bank embezzles the money, the bank goes under and then you lose everything? Isn’t the maximum FDIC insurance for a bank deposit much less than a million?

    If you put millions of dollars in the stock market, the market could still crash and everything would evaporate overnight.

    So people buy land, property, houses, tangible assets like cars, vans, trucks, vehicles, RVs. That way if you need the money, you have something that you can sell to get the money. Also, land has the ability to grow in value. Real estate in California in the last ten years has doubled and tripled in value.

    So when I see TBN owning property, vehicles, and equipment, first of all they need sets to make TV shows and secondly its a way to protect the resources of the network from the unpredictability of the financial markets. If the economy ever collapsed, TBN would still be getting the Gospel into the whole world.

    Remember the most important thing we are all called to do is to share Christ. Fifty years from now, TBN will still be getting the Gospel into parts of the world where churches are outlawed and the Bible is forbidden.

    Now that we’ve gotten even further off topic, can we get back to the main issues of this thread?

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  11. Avid Reader. You no longer need a TV studio and hair and make up artists to share Christ.

    Instagram hashtags will get you into Saudi Arabia, Iraq and any other place you might like to share Jesus.

    I encourage those who have no idea what Instagram is to prayerfully consider getting it and using it to share the Gospel message with those in places with internet. Hashtags are God’s gift to the evangelist.

    Go forth and learn to hashtag 😊

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  12. TBN gets into a lot of places where preaching Christ gets people put in prison and the Bible is forbidden but they all have TV sets.

    Plus, why is it ok for the world to spend millions on tv shows and movies that seduce people away from the Lord but it’s supposedly not ok for Christians to have the financial resources to get the Gospel to the world?

    Why doesn’t anyone complain when the world owns land, property, vehicles, jets, etc.? Why are people only offended when it’s Christians that have resources?

    The devil knows that resources open doors to the Gospel. There’s a really big world out there to reach. It’s going to take all of us and everything we own to get the job done.

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  13. Why would God even give us modern technology like TV, satellite, internet if not to get the Godpel to the world?

    Now can we please get back on topic?

    Like

  14. Part 1.
    Avid Reader said,

    Plus, why is it ok for the world to spend millions on tv shows and movies that seduce people away from the Lord but it’s supposedly not ok for Christians to have the financial resources to get the Gospel to the world?

    Why doesn’t anyone complain when the world owns land, property, vehicles, jets, etc.? Why are people only offended when it’s Christians that have resources?

    These are the very same arguments that TBN staff, the Crouches, and Word of Faithers and Prosperity Gospel proponents use to justify why they think Christians should send pastors a lot of money, too.

    If all TV sets disappeared tomorrow, God could still get the Gospel out.

    Prior to TV and radio, how did the Gospel get spread? Back in Apostle Paul’s day, they didn’t have TV or radio. They used word of mouth and hand written scrolls to spread the Gospel.

    Someone above mentioned the internet. That’s another possibility or vehicle for distributing religious teachings.

    The reason why it can be bad to spend all this money on Christian TV shows and such is that much of TBN’s programming promotes questionable to completely false teaching.

    Many of TBN’s pastors are money grubbers – they’re not in it for “spreading the Gospel” but for lining their own pockets.

    Some of the preachers Julie Anne “outs” on this blog (such as Bob Coy and Tullian) had their own weekly TV shows on TBN.

    Many other preachers who appear to be dishonest, greedy, and/or who prey on women, such as Robert Morris, Clayton Jennings, Steve Furtick, Benny Hinn, and many others, have appeared on TBN, or have daily or weekly shows.

    Just because someone is on TBN doesn’t mean they are trustworthy or that people should send them money.

    There was one guy on TBN who used to host TBN’s “PTL” show. His name was Zachery Tims.
    He seemed nice enough but later died of a drug overdose or heart attack – the guy was married but cheating on his wife. I think when he died, he was in a hotel with a mistress or prostitute (?).

    Like

  15. Part 2.
    I’m not necessarily totally against all Christian TV or movie-making or the concept of it.
    However, I don’t view it as being necessary, and I do think it attracts a lot of false Christians who only want fame or money.

    A lot of Non-Christians just assume that the pastors on TV are money-grubbers (and often, I think they are right) – it makes a bad witnesses for Jesus in that sense.

    I know Word of Faithers, or Prosperity Gospel advocates, like to teach Jesus was wealthy, but he was not.
    Jesus pointed out often that wealth is a distraction and temptation to people.

    It’s not just that it takes millions of dollars to make a TV show, and ergo, this justifies the Crouches having millions of dollars worth of TV cameras-

    I’ve read news reports that the Crouch family mis-use funds sent to their network to buy themselves STUFF. Not to promote the Gospel, but to buy themselves material goods.

    For example, Jan Crouch had two pet dogs, and she used money she and her family got from the TV network to buy a special trailer just for her PET DOGS.

    Now, I love animals and think the should be cared for well and humanely, but buying an entire trailer for dogs seems ridiculous and a waste of money.

    I’ve seen a few episodes on TBN where they will spend an entire PTL broadcast discussing the Crouch family. Yep.

    Just one example of a few I have seen:
    One year, when it was Matt and Laurie Crouch’s Xth number Wedding Anniversary or whatever it was (some kind of personal family milestone), they spent the entire PTL show (about two hours) talking about Matt and Laurie, and showing photos of Matt and Laurie’s kids.
    Shouldn’t they have been spending that broadcast time talking about Jesus Christ instead?

    It’s hard for me to believe that this Crouch family is in it ‘just for Jesus’ when they are buying new cars or living in mansions.

    I don’t think the Gospel needs flashy movies or TV shows to sell it to people.

    This is like the seeker-friendly churches who think if they make church “cool” and “entertaining,” and have a cool rock band on Sunday mornings, and a coffee shop in the church foyer, that it will attract atheists to church every week and get them to convert. It does no such thing.

    It’s like just one guy sharing the message about Jesus with a neighbor in his own words over a cup of coffee on his front porch isn’t enough for a lot of Christians any more.
    Christians used to send missionaries to other nations, hand out Gospel tracts, etc.

    I don’t think Christians need all the nifty marketing tricks and gimmicks to sell Jesus. If anything, doing that seems to cheapen the faith and turns off a lot of people, including me.

    Last but not least, the vast majority of Christian created art (TV, movies, books) tends to be SCHLOCKY and of terrible quality. “Pedantic” might be another good word for a lot of Christian entertainment.
    (Paging Headless Unicorn Guy here!)

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  16. Daisy,

    I really enjoyed reading through your blog. You and I think alike in so many ways that I’m surprised we’ve found something to disagree on.

    Again, I agree with you of course there were plenty of ways to get the Gospel out and God works through all those different ways.

    Why limit God?

    Why can’t we use TV and media for the Gospel?

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  17. Daisy,

    There’s several different parts of this to analyze:

    1) the TBN TV networks
    2) the programmers on TBN
    3) the people who work at TBN
    4) the people who make programming decisions at TBN
    5) etc

    Which part would you like to analyze?

    I totally agree with your point that—
    “Just because someone is on TBN doesn’t mean they are trustworthy or that people should send them money.”

    Yes of course!

    Then you said,
    “The reason why it can be bad to spend all this money on Christian TV shows and such is that much of TBN’s programming promotes questionable to completely false teaching.”

    (Note—Please understand that when I respond to a logical statement, sometimes pure logic can sound cold and detached—that’s not my intention. I’m just analyzing it.)

    The logic in that statement is that because some wolves have infiltrated the flock and done wrong therefore the rest of us can’t use modern technology like TV and media to spread the Gospel?

    Daisy, that can’t be what you meant.

    Like

  18. There’s a lot of different parts of the body of Christ.
    Some people believe in speaking in tongues, some don’t.
    Some people believe in free will. Some people believe in predestination.
    Some people believe in prophecy, others don’t.

    Is it really fair for us to label other Christian groups as “questionable to completely false teaching” just because we have a difference in theology?

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  19. Whenever there’s something worth billions of dollars, there will be all kinds of people trying to gain control of it.

    Let’s be honest—there’s a lot of Christian leaders who would love to gain control over TBN programming. They would love to be able to limit all TBN programmers to only teaching their own version of theology.

    But none of us know everything there is to know about God. Each part of the body of Christ has a different piece of the puzzle. Can we learn from each other and respect our differences instead of tearing each other apart?

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  20. Daisy wrote
    “If all TV sets disappeared tomorrow, God could still get the Gospel out.”

    Think about how much easier it is to wash clothes in the washing machine than having to go to a nearby creek, scrub each piece of laundry and then hang everything out to dry. Yes, we could do laundry the way that it was done in the 1800’s but why bother when we have modern technology?

    By the way, I’m not trying to be sarcastic or harsh. This is just logical analysis and if this gets too intense for anyone let me know and I’d be happy to go back to discussing the main topic of this thread which was T. T.

    Like

  21. Believe it, or not, there are a lot of places where cultures don’t watch TV. Technology is limited in it’s reach if one goes outside of a Western world.

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  22. @ Avid Reader
    So you feel it’s easier to share the Gospel via TV than to do so word of mouth…

    Again, people were sharing the Gospel prior to the invention of TV or even prior to the printing press. The TV is not necessary to the process, tho you feel it’s easier or quicker.

    I’m not sure how the ease of it changes the dynamic that the wolves in sheeps clothing are drawn to the TV game because they make much money off naive or desperate types who send them money.

    I think it’s easier for the Phonies to bilk folks off TV and to get more money off it than maybe in a brick and mortar church.

    Also, TBN supports a lot of false teachers – they are not only spreading the Gospel on TV but their false teaching, too.

    I’ve watched a ton of TBN over the years. They have a small trickle of decent programming, but a lot of it is awful money-scamming stuff or bizarre teaching.

    Many of the pastors on TBN promote gender complementarianism when that issue (or marital related ones) come up.

    I abhor this game the TV preachers play (yes, I have heard a few different ones actually do this, such as Rod Parsley, back when he was on TBN daily):

    “Like Bible verse Thus and So, Chapter 11:43 says, ‘Blah blah blah, God conquers your fears, blah blah….’
    – so if you send my ministry eleven dollars and 43 cents, God will heal you of your anxiety and fear!”

    As someone who is a life long sufferer of anxiety myself, I deeply despise how these TV preachers on TBN and Day Star exploit people like this.

    I can guarantee you if I mail that TV preacher guy $11.43 or whatever amount, it’s NOT going to heal my anxiety – it will only help fatten his wallet, which he will use to buy another car, not tell people about Jesus.
    They are doing that sort of thing when they are not devoting the occasional two hour block of programming to shows about Matt Crouch’s marriage to Laurie.

    This reminds me of TBN (this guy used his TV show to do this):
    _John Oliver’s Bogus Church Is a Huge Success: ‘Thousands of Dollars’ Received_ (article on Daily Beast site)

    Last week, the host of HBO’s ‘Last Week Tonight’ skewered televangelists and established a church, Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. Well, it turns out the thing is a big hit.

    Haven’t had time to read any and all posts on here since I was last here.

    My Part Two post was stuck in mod queue last time I was here, I don’t think it’s been published to appear yet.
    You may want to scroll back up this page every so often to see if it has been published yet.

    Like

  23. “April-May 2015 – emotional grooming of Woman #2 by Tullian Tchividjian. Part of this relationship with Woman #2 involved Tullian borrowing money from her and her husband to finance hiring a private investigator to find out if Kim Tchividjian was having an affair. ”
    It seems to me that he claimed he came home from a trip to find out she was having an affair, and then he sought solace with this woman #2. Seems like he didn’t actually know Kim was having an affair, but only was suspicious, maybe because she was growing cold to him and his lies???

    This has always been my suspicion. Maybe she was seeing a counselor to help cope with his craziness.

    Like

  24. “I think this should be included as well. At the same time TT is “counseling” with Paul Tripp, he is also trying to groom “Woman #2” and “Woman #3”. Seems very likely that Tripp was played like a fiddle.”
    Mark – you are so right. Even brother Boz and sister Jerushah took Tripp to task publicly on FB on his ridiculous post about the Tchividjian divorce when it was filed for. Later Tripp removed the post, but issued no public correction.

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  25. Avid Reader:

    TBN folks are filthy lucre false teaching charlatans.

    I’d be surprised if they knew the Gospel message about the kingdom, sin, salvation, resurrection and coming judgment enough to clearly articulate it.

    I imagine they spread the “God loves you and wants you to know him so he can bless you” gospel which doesn’t adequately communicate our position as sinners in need of a Saviour.

    I could be wrong but I suspect not.

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  26. Daisy wrote

    “The vast majority of Christian created art (TV, movies, books) tends to be SCHLOCKY and of terrible quality.”

    That’s true—why is that? Because it costs money to produce quality TV and media of all kinds!

    Like

  27. Daisy,

    I wish I didn’t have to say this but you keep trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. Now I have to correct the record.

    I’m in favor of all forms of sharing the Gospel. Like I said before—God moves through us in all kinds of ways. But we can’t delegate to God what God has already delegated to us. We can’t sit back and say that the sovereignty of God will do everything that God is waiting on us to do.

    It’s our responsibility to share the Gospel with the people in our lives. If we all just reached our own personal circle, the whole world would be reached a lot quicker.

    It’s God’s responsibility to draw people to Him. I agree with you that God can draw people in many different ways, but why criticize other believers for how they do things? If a church wants to have lights, modern music, and comfy seats, why judge them for that? Shouldn’t they be able to choose their own methods?

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  28. Kay,

    Even in the most remote places on Earth, they have smartphones.

    Why did God give us this technology if not to spread the Gospel with it?

    Like

  29. Daisy,

    I don’t like preachers who pressure people for money. The body of Christ as a whole has a problem with this. We see it in churches all over the world. In fact, I just attended a friend’s church yesterday and cringed when they started pressuring everyone.

    Kenneth Hagin confronted these doctrines in the church both in person by calling a meeting of the leading Christian preachers and by writing the book Midas Touch which has already been referenced on this thread. If you have the time, I’d encourage you to read it.

    Keep in mind that the preachers on TV are paid programmers who are responsible for their own content. While I don’t agree with some of their doctrine, the reason they are on TV, is because someone else wants to watch them. If we don’t want to watch it, why can’t we just change the channel?

    Daisy wrote
    “TBN supports a lot of false teachers.”

    That’s really harsh, Daisy. Now just because other parts of the body of Christ have a difference of opinion on theology, why can’t we respect our differences instead of calling them heretics?

    I believe in the gifts of the Spirit but I would never condemn other believers who believe that the gifts passed away at the time of the Apostles.

    Now I understand that you guys don’t like Word of Faith theology. I respect your opinion on that. But keep in mind that WOF people are Christians too. Just because there are problems with Calvinism, we can’t automatically call Calvinism preachers “false teachers.”

    By the way, before he passed, Paul Crouch told the TBN programmers to get back to preaching the Bible and stop going on doctrinal rabbit trails.

    Like

  30. One of the things that comes to mind for me is that excessive attention to one’s personal appearance–bodybuilding, tattoos, tanning, teeth whitening, and clothes to show all that off–is a classical sign of midlife crisis. So is a fairly radical change in one’s career–say like reorganizing one’s pulpit ministry to produce books. With all that, I personally have to wonder whether it’s a Camaro, a Corvette, a Harley, or a BMW in his garage these days.

    And, of course, a new woman is also a classic sign of midlife crisis. Or four, or whatever it was.

    I think we also might do well to remember that at this point, we can get too clever by half sometimes. His counselors, if he ever gets any, are going to have to deal with NPD, grooming, theological patterns, and the like, but all I’ve got to do do is ask a simple question; is he a “one woman man” of good reputation?

    The answer with TT is clearly no, and there’s no excuse for it. Until he owns that, he’s dead to me. Counselors may help him own it, but that’s not my business.

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  31. Bike Bubba,

    That’s a great point.

    Too often people can miss the obvious red flags in the behavior of certain leaders.

    Mike Jones—who revealed Ted Haggard’s secret lifestyle—mentioned how surprised he was that no one at Haggard’s church seemed to notice the red flags.

    He said,

    “What I also discovered is that there are usually plenty of clues to be found when someone is doing something on the sly, whether it’s sleeping with male escorts or stealing from their church’s coffers. But people don’t want to know that about their religious leaders. Many want to turn a blind eye, even when the truth is staring them right in the face.

    When I attended Haggard’s New Life Church after the scandal broke, I was amazed to see all the explicitly homoerotic statues and paintings—sculptures of nude, muscular men all over the place. I also noticed that all the people on stage where Ted would preach were young men—not a female in sight. I was later told that Ted picked out all the art work and the final decision as to who was on stage lay with him.”

    Here’s the reference
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/07/17/why-priests-hire-male-prostitutes-by-mike-jones.html

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  32. Just read a little more about the situation, and wanted to congratulate my gracious hostess on getting personally under the skin of Mr. Tchividjian. Am wearing a wool shirt of fabric made in Oregon in your honor today. :^)

    Avid: thank you, and yikes. It’s like the first couple of chapters of “The Picture of Dorian Gray”.

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  33. LOL – Bike Bubba, are you wearing a Pendleton shirt? That’s about a few hours from me (I’m now in WA). Brad and I have been working on a new set of articles for quite a while. There should be no doubt about the authenticity of this survivor’s story. Tullian might be upset that he wasn’t successful in “getting that b****.” Oh well.

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  34. Wow; really eye-opening. The line that struck me the most was, he was counseled to take time to be alone before taking on another relationship, and he said “I’m at my worst alone”. I have counseled many people to do this as well; at least a year. And if this is a matter of divorce, NOT to be in a new relationship when the divorce is still in progress; you are still technically married. And I’m living it; I’ve been widowed longer than I was married. I’ve been challenged that, the Bible says nothing about staying single for a time before pursuing another marriage. I did read, at the end of Genesis about the time they took to mourn after Joseph’s death, and it adds up to 6 months. Half a year. If this is a rabbit trail towards a previous post, or for a new one, please feel free to re-direct. In the meantime, I feel very sorry for Staci; she, in effect, is being used.

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  35. Avid Reader, I am not against technology to further the Gospel. Folks in third world countries may have cell phones, but the ones I know about have 3G/4G networks, which are slow. Many people around the world don’t have the money for pay for expensive mobile services so using technology to get the Gospel to them is not the best way. I am not way saying that if they had these services not to use them, just pointing out that Westerners tend to judge third world countries by first world standards. In many parts of the world it is still beneficial to have that old fashion missionary bringing the Good News to them.

    I have no idea what this has to do with Tullian though?!!

    Like

  36. Daisy/Salty per your Nov. 27 Posts. Both of you would consider as well as Julie-
    Anne, Brenda R., Kay and many in the Blog that Leonard Ravenhill talks about in his written works. He writes/talks about those that will be vindicated after they’re dead (especially in Why Revival Tarries-1959 and America is Too Young to Die-1959)! God DID NOT need TBN 2,000 (or over 2,000 years ago) and HE DOESN’T NEED THEM TODAY TO PROMOTE HIM (might be offensive but it’s truth).
    Salty; you’re not wrong, very sad that TBN even exist; leadership, especially male has heard this for years: Whore takes money and screws the people and very much TBN sorry to say; so many in the pulpit also (WE do not know what a true church/ministry looks like so that we even watch and or throw money at these organizations is appalling). Covered dwell in 9/19-20/2004 Los Angeles Times Article and ongoing by Los Angeles Times and SO MANY OTHERS. George Barna wrote a book YEARS ago exposing TBN about “The Frog in the Kettle (1990) and contact him for anything he knows more on. Remember hearing Leonard Ravenhill (1-27-91 Anaheim, CA it’s on Net) he called “bring HELL into your Living Room” and more regarding T.V., the plug in drug and the “electric toilet” (think of all the propaganda that comes out of T.V=lies wasting our time/life on).
    Read lot’s on Discipleship that Jesus took 12 Men and sent them out two by two for a reason (“church is insulated from the perishing world” if we are not doing what Jesus taught the Disciples=Go (it’s in the Bible). Art Katz in Apostolic Foundations, Prophetic Call, Spirit of Truth; Reality, the Hope of Glory, True Fellowship etc., would write it well also. Remember hearing a famous evangelist disdaining a drunk man in a Hotel and got slapped upside the head by God/Jesus/Holy Spirit to to the tune of ‘that he would sober up the drunk man and send him out over this self-righteous religious pious man that thought God needed him to promote him’=sobering! Humility is the key. “Thieves by Trey Smith and The Fleecing of Christianity by Jackie Alnor” wrote it well about T.V./Preacher/Evangelist Fraud as well as so many others. Pagan Christianity (green cover only) by Frank Viola as well as “Don’t Call Me Brother by Austin Miles, William Lobdell’s Book; Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson/Van Vonderan. so many great wake-up calls as well as this wonderful site. “Onward Christian Soldier” by Wm Lobdell (article as well as so many). Jezebel Spirit teachings by John Paul Jackson, Noel Alexander and Tim Davis, Derek Prince was real eye opener=Bible talks about also (look at what God did to Ahab/Jezebel/Family (that whole true story). Jezebel wants name in lights, name on the billboard, look at me, take their hand and slap their backside and we’re NOT looking at our leaders early years of the unhealedness that they’re doing all the damage and destruction and narcissism that they’re doing=not reading our Bibles to judge fruit and weigh it by the WORD.

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  37. Avid Reader: Try NO T.V. TOTALLY for one year (then try it for a Decade)! Create a Bucket List, go see Nature, Read, Play Table Games with the Family, take a Class, Read, Pray, ride a bike, go visit someone in a Nursing Home Daily, go see a Play, Concert; create a list of all the things you want to do and see and go do it. Decade later of NO T.V., what did you/we/I miss (so much to do and see)? Look at what’s on Leonard Ravenhill’s Grave Marker=Google it! Church in the Market Place; what a concept!

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  38. THOT,

    Derek Prince never apologized for starting the Shepherding movement which caused a lot of damage. I’m not sure why you would recommend his books.

    Before you recommend books by Frank Viola, please dig a little deeper on him as well. There are really serious allegations. If you have a moment, please consider this

    https://nathansvoice.org/2013/04/22/frank-viola/

    Like

  39. @BikeBubba:

    One of the things that comes to mind for me is that excessive attention to one’s personal appearance–bodybuilding, tattoos, tanning, teeth whitening, and clothes to show all that off–is a classical sign of midlife crisis.

    “I’M YOUNG! I’M YOUNG! I’M YOUNG! REALLY! I AM!”

    So is a fairly radical change in one’s career–say like reorganizing one’s pulpit ministry to produce books. With all that, I personally have to wonder whether it’s a Camaro, a Corvette, a Harley, or a BMW in his garage these days.

    The craziest mid-life crisis I ever observed also included a radical change in sexual orientation plus sexual predation — trying to grab all the nookie he could before the worms had their turn with him. (Last time I crossed paths with him, I noticed the guy has not aged well.) “I GOTTA BE MEEEEEEE!”

    And, of course, a new woman is also a classic sign of midlife crisis. Or four, or whatever it was.

    In that crazy mid-life crisis mentioned above, it was ditching his live-in girlfriend for hot-and-cold running boys. (Probably around 18, though noticeably younger than him.) “I GOTTA BE MEEEEEEE!”

    In comparison, my own mid-life crisis was dullsville; just switched to a sport coupe after four utility hatchbacks and started watching a lot of My Little Pony.

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  40. JA; yes, I’ve got about half a dozen Pendleton shirts and even some pants and blankets. Way off topic here, but it’s quite frankly inspiring to see how that company worked with the Umatilla Indians to get a reliable source of good wool–in a way it’s positively un-American in all the best ways.

    I’d call my wool addiction my mid life crisis, but quite frankly it started when I was 23. (BTW, over two decades later, I’m finally recycling them—they wear like iron, and it’s only the elbows and collars going….is it OK to advertise for them here?) :^)

    So I guess I’d better think about that carbon fiber bicycle or something. Maybe.

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  41. Well, being the sheep lady, I don’t mind you talking about your wool addiction. I actually have a wool addiction, too. I need to get my knitting needles out again 🙂 I did not know that about Pendleton Woolen Mills working with Native Americans. Very cool story!

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  42. Speaking of all this mid-life crisis talk, I got mine earlier than most.

    I think most folks go through their mid life crisis in their 40s or 50s, but I went through mine around age 36 or so.

    Mine mainly consisted of evaluating how I had lived my life so far and how it would progress as I got older. I didn’t do anything really weird. I didn’t have the funds to go out and buy a new sports car or anything like that. I just did a lot of pondering and ruminating about my life, what is my purpose in life, etc and so on.

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  43. Avid Reader, I believe WOF (aka ‘Prosperity Gospel’) is itself a false teaching. WOF/ Prosperity Gospel is the bread and butter of TBN.

    I think a lot of Christians out there in TV land, the folks in the audience watching TBN, are suckered in by this teaching. It’s a racket, a scam, a way of convincing believers to mail their checks to the TV preachers.
    Sometimes, it’s elderly folks who live alone who are living off limited incomes who send in their money to these hucksters.

    The audience want to believe if they just follow a rule or two – send a TV preacher some “seed money,” then God is guaranteed to heal them of their sickness, or help them pay their rent, or whatever it is they are in need of.

    These WOF preachers count on that naive view or desperation. WOF preachers prey on people and their needs.

    A person can be WOF and be a “real Christian” but that doesn’t make WOF true. People who are “real” Christians can and do believe in false doctrines.

    I’d say that Calvinism is false, but a lot of “real” Christians believe in that stuff, too. Ditto on gender complementarianism and a million other doctrines.

    I’ve read some interesting blog posts by people who are ex-WOF. They feel scammed and embarrassed having spent years mailing checks into TV preachers.

    WOF has this expectation that if you do “X” (pray, tithe, send in “seed money” to TV Preacher John Doe, whatever), that God must, has to, respond by healing you, sending you money, or whatever.

    Some of the WOFers get into this “positive confession” stuff, where they say if you speak positive over your checkbook, God will replenish your bank account.

    The sad truth if that there are no guarantees in life.

    No matter how hard you pray, if you tithe, if you plant “seed money”, God is not always going to protect you from bad things in life.

    God may not heal you or do whatever you are asking, even if you are a good person who follows all the rules and does what the WOF TV preachers say. God’s answer is sometimes “no” or resounding apathy to your situation.

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  44. I’ve read many comments about Tullian’s tattoos. However, doesn’t the bible warn against such markings in Leviticus 19:28 (Amplified) which says, “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord.”

    I know some will have a hard time accepting this because tattooing has now become a common practice in our society. However, just because society approves of something does not make it right in God’s eyes. Our society at large, also approves of abortion and divorce as well. However, the Bible makes it clear that God doesn’t approve of these things. Just saying……

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  45. J.Smith, if you are going to stick with that law about cuttings, are you also sticking with not eating pork, shellfish? Do you abide by the purity teachings of abstinence while menstruating or after having a baby? I know there are many more OT laws. I think there’s a reason why Jesus came and brought the new law of love. 🙂

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  46. sheep lady! love it. Just catching so have a few thoughts…

    Daisy, I’m now thinking about whether my next car should be a sports car 🙂

    I’ve been challenged that, the Bible says nothing about staying single for a time before pursuing another marriage.

    I don’t think you have to, but when its a circumstance like this, obviously Tullian has some stuff he needs to work on. But he doesn’t really care to, so that’s probably a moot point.

    Loura, I get your point, but I think that when we hear from individual women who had contact with Tullian, complete with text samples, we have to realize that those are first hand sources (leaving aside how much they have been paraphrased, which I agree with you in preferring that they be given as is, perhaps with additional comments below). They may be telling truth, they may not, but how we determine that is through looking at whether they fit the individuals and verifying all we can. This is difficult when we don’t have their names, but I am comfortable reading anonymous comments generally. We are not judge, jury and executioner. I understand why people would not want to be in the spotlight.

    Tullian has had his say publically. His acknowledged behavior and formal statements alone are enough for me to evaluate, imo. The rest is simply filling in blanks. I would have higher standards for evidence if I were going to affect his life in any way, though.

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  47. To be clear, my point about tattoos is not that they are explicitly banned for the church–the law is satisfied in Christ, and we are therefore not under law. However, what tattoos (or bodybuilding, or using steroids, or extreme tanning, or buying the new sports car or motorcycle, or whatever) are is often a sign saying “look at me” which is often a plea for help.

    Certainly was in TT’s case, and the sad reality is that those who belatedly intervened got snowed. I saw similar things when a former friend of mine decided to cheat on his wife and left her.

    Like

  48. Somebody on another site was talking about the promise keepers having ‘accountability’ groups that basically told members it was ok to keep lies secret, like adultery, from your wife as long as you told the group? Obviously I have no personal experience with this (I don’t guess women have accountability groups? At least I’ve never heard of it), but it does seem like there was some of that attitude at play with Tullian. I wonder how pervasive it is.

    Bike Bubba, I don’t like to pick out any one thing to say it means ‘look at me’ (except maybe steroids) because its really all of it together? The whole focus on superficial rather than the internal aspects is the problem. Not going to the gym or having a tan or tattoos…which are all fine on their own.

    Like

  49. Thanks THOT.

    I haven’t had a TV in over ten years. I spend my time knitting now 👌🏼 whilst listening to audio bible.

    (How spiritual am I?)

    🙋

    Frank Viola could be a serial adulterer for all I care.

    His Pagan Christianity book changed my life.

    I can’t unread it.

    I don’t buy into his “let’s all start home church Sunday clubs” stuff but I’ll say that his little red book opened my eyes.

    And tattoos.

    If I could go back ten years and undo all of mine… I’d pay any figure to undo the damage.

    They’re just not worth it.

    Like

  50. That’s a good point, Bike. Doesn’t it seem like everything about his physical appearance is “look at me?” You can tell he works out, his tan, his hair, tattoos, designer jeans, etc. It’s all a facade.

    Like

  51. Good point JA – He’s kind of sporting the George Hamilton look. Perhaps at some point we will see him on ABC’s Dancing with the Stars.

    Like

  52. J Smith said,

    Good point JA – He’s kind of sporting the George Hamilton look. Perhaps at some point we will see him on ABC’s Dancing with the Stars.

    That will come only after he takes a leave of absence for a few months,
    then come back with a new book,
    and goes on speaking tours at various churches, talking about how he fell, how he learned from his mistakes,
    but praise Jesus!, God’s grace restored him,

    and he wants to tell you how you can apply lessons he learned from his journey (for a speaking fee or the price of his new book about it – the one that will probably feature his profile pic we see on this post – him staring wistfully off into space).

    Then he’ll try to appear on Dancing With the Stars.
    Personally, I’d rather see Tchividjian get barked at by Chef Anne on Food Network’s “Worst Cooks in America: Celebrity Edition.”

    Like

  53. The Christian Show The 600 Club needs your funds to spread the Gospel of Jesus

    That one was funny. Did you see pat Roberson apparently advised somebody that it was ok that they not go to their sisters for the holidays because she refused to have contact with her parents because it was probably just hormones!!

    Somebody needs to send that man to the house!

    Like

  54. Bike Bubba, I don’t like to pick out any one thing to say it means ‘look at me’ (except maybe steroids) because its really all of it together? The whole focus on superficial rather than the internal aspects is the problem. Not going to the gym or having a tan or tattoos…which are all fine on their own.

    JA, what Lea said in this paragraph really sums it up for me. There’s something, as you note, about all of these things coming together at once that just screams “midlife crisis.”

    Regarding Promise Keepers, I attended a few conferences in Boulder and LA, and I do remember one speaker, can’t remember who, who did more or less suggest that it was best to reveal porn use to one’s accountability group instead of one’s spouse. I think I’ve seen it in a book somewhere, too. Sorry I’m not more specific, but it’s been 20 years.

    Like

  55. I guess I hit mid-life crisis this year when it came down to job searching. Fortunately, the “crisis” portion didn’t last too long — for me it was a matter of “it will be what it will be.” As for menopause…I know I’m not there yet because I’m freezing throughout the day. Will I finally know I’ve hit the mark when I’m sweating and fanning myself in 50 degree weather?

    Like

  56. Salty – Pagan Christianity was of interest to me as well. You can be sure that I never learned most of that in Bible college! But, I admit that I am sorely disappointed that another pastor and author has allegations of sex abuse under his belt.

    Like

  57. Julie-Anne: When clicked on this two days in a row now nothing stays on screen it goes to a blank screen: Better copy and paste somewhere before it disappears.
    https://t.co/uFA9Ec7F37 (what you posted to read)?
    Also: Avid Reader: Derek Prince repented for his part in the shepherd movement and people know that believe even D.B. wrote a book about and heard him repent; contact his Ministry in Florida maybe they would know what teaching tape on. Also, HAVE not read anything else of Frank Viola’s; don’t care to read anything else of his because thought Pagan Christianity was such an excellent write. Also, friends called me up and said he got involved with people who were in error. SO MANY MEN/Women started out WELL and then for whatever reason money, power corrupts absolutely. Look at “Religious Politics” by R. Liardon and how all that played out booklet was correct should have read/heeded own written work. NONE of us are exempt from sin, temptation NOT excusing sin; I can’t throw stones whatsoever. We all have Bible=Word if care to read and heed!
    Daisy: 11/29 at 9:32 post YOU GO GIRL (WHOA MAN=play on woman; don’t mess with this wonderful insightful woman)!

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  58. “And to buy deflector shields for their space ships that are being sent on these missions:

    Christian Broadcast Channel fund raising
    (link to You Tube video – one crude term used at the end of the video)”

    HAHAHAHA

    Ahhh thanks Daisy.

    Really needed that.

    Kathi, I haven’t read about FV and bad behaviour. Oh dear.

    Like

  59. per Bike Bubba’s reply: Regarding Promise Keepers, I attended a few conferences in Boulder and LA, and I do remember one speaker, can’t remember who, who did more or less suggest that it was best to reveal porn use to one’s accountability group instead of one’s spouse. I think I’ve seen it in a book somewhere, too. Sorry I’m not more specific, but it’s been 20 years. EOQ

    “don’t tell your wife” is one of the biggest lies that keeps men in bondage to porn or whatever addiction they are hiding… man’s way says we can keep hiding it to try to beat it while we continue to live in deception… that’s not God’s way… His way is drastic and painful, yet effective… and that means ALL deception ends too! until the Church realizes deception needs to be addressed as well instead of excusing/justifying the continued cover up, we will continue to have these kinds of moral failings being exposed in the Church…

    I’m sorry, for me the bigger problem going on in the Church are those who knew it and aided and abetted, excused/justified, etc. the cover up in the hidden secret room of the temple, per Ezekiel 8… that’s the enemy’s way… God’s way is in the light.

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  60. @JulieAnne:

    The only way I want to see Tullian now, is simply humble.

    As in having Armorbearers in livery blowing long trumpets before him to announce how Humble(TM) he is? (chuckle chuckle)

    Or just Uriah Heep II?

    Like

  61. Sometimes I shave only once in a two-week period because I do physical labor 16 hours per day and there’s not even enough time for sleeping. But Tullian grows a 7-day, designer-cropped, beard (and then shaves, and regrows) as a fashion statement–to appear more bad-boy-sexy to potential prey. This goes hand-in-hand with the deep tan, open collars, stonewashed jeans, soulful book cover poses, body sculpting… as well as the fake name. Yeah, ‘Tullian’ is not his real first name; his birth name is the much more pedestrian, much less sexy, ‘William.’ It’s Narcissism on Parade within the Christian Church, brothers and sisters, and we shouldn’t enable it!

    Liked by 1 person

  62. @DanielSHagopian:

    But Tullian grows a 7-day, designer-cropped, beard (and then shaves, and regrows) as a fashion statement–to appear more bad-boy-sexy to potential prey. This goes hand-in-hand with the deep tan, open collars, stonewashed jeans, soulful book cover poses, body sculpting… as well as the fake name. Yeah, ‘Tullian’ is not his real first name; his birth name is the much more pedestrian, much less sexy, ‘William.’

    Again,

    (The ridicule just writes itself…)

    Liked by 1 person

  63. Sort of off topic, but, I think I read somewhere that Stacie Phillips is twice divorced? Any details on that, that you know of?

    Like

  64. @BikeBubba:

    JA, what Lea said in this paragraph really sums it up for me. There’s something, as you note, about all of these things coming together at once that just screams “midlife crisis.”

    The most spectacular midlife crisis I have ever seen hit this one guy when he turned 30(!). He immediately came out as “bi” (not “gay”) and started sleeping around with as many visibly-younger males and females as he could, acting like a sexual predator trying to get all the nookie he could before feeding the worms. It was like a Damascus Road Altar Call Conversion Experience, including the compulsive Witnessing afterwards.

    In comparison, my midlife crisis was positively mundane — just traded in my econobox hatchback for a two-seater sports coupe and started watching a lot of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

    Like

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