Pastor Matt Chandler on Couples Who are Courting: “How Far is Too Far?”

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Pastor Matt Chandler gives advice on couples who are courting: “how far can we go?”

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Matt Chandler, purity, kissing, courtship, dating , Todd Friel

On the Wretched show, Todd Friel read a viewer’s question, “Once I start courting somebody, are we allowed to do anything?”

Friel showed a video clip of Pastor Matt Chandler of The Village Church with his wife sitting next to him completely silent during the entire talk. I guess her voice doesn’t count. I mean, come on, why put her in the video if she’s not allowed to say anything? Ok, I’ll stop now.

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Here is the transcription of Chandler’s response to the ever-so-important question on how far dating couples can go physically:

Physical things build. They always do. So, once you go mouth to mouth, you are going to move past mouth to mouth. You just are. It’s not that you’re not going to.

Once you go mouth to mouth, things will progress. And so I would strongly recommend not going mouth to mouth and fight the good fight, that on your wedding day for the first time being the time that you kiss your spouse [sic].

And that’s a place of regret in my own heart, and a place where I’ve sought forgiveness from my own wife. And it’s a place just to honor.

It’s the place where Josh Patterson loved his wife well and that he literally didn’t kiss her until their wedding day. And he will talk – when he shares that story – about being in the car, saying goodnight and it being so tempting. But he knew that there was a greater reward and that he wanted to hold out for that greater reward.

At this point in the video, Todd Friel gives some commentary and one of the guys who works for him is interviewed about how he saved his first kiss for the wedding day and why he and his wife chose those restrictions.

Matt Chandler’s video continues:

It cannot progress if you don’t get it started.  You get it started, it will progress. And so, I’m not trying to be puritanical, I’m just saying, that [once] you get that engine started, there’s a tendency to run. And [once] you get it up to 20 and it’s impossible to stop. And so, I’d be very careful. And the question’s even flawed: how far is too far? Just honor, get to know the soul. The more physicality introduced into the relationship, the more you’re not going to talk. You’re not going to wrestle with difficult things, you will fill the silence, not with searching for heart, but rather just with physicality. It robs you of what God wants to build in you and that will need to be repaired later down the road if you sacrifice it early on. If you don’t sacrifice it early on, you won’t have to repair it later on. What if he’s a bad kisser?  Train that fool.

So, here’s the thing. I heard the purity teachings when I was in youth group. I didn’t, however, get the don’t-kiss talk. It no-kiss talk is certainly talked about in the purity culture of the Homeschool Movement and other fundamentalist teachings, and many people who have brought up in that rigid culture have re-evaluated some of these rules they were under.

I have a couple of issues with Chandler’s rule. While he claims that the engine won’t stop, is that based solely on his personal experience? I know of people who pledged a secondary virginity commitment and stayed pure after previously losing their virginity. So, to claim you can’t stop the engine seems pretty black and white to me. If he said that it’s difficult to stop that train going down the track, that would seem to be a more accurate response.

Another thought: there are no clear boundaries in the Bible on this topic. When the Bible says to flee youthful lust, it does not define what that looks like. Unless Chandler has some special guidebook that was divinely sent to him, I have difficulty with a pastor setting such specific guidelines. I think he’s going beyond the pastoral role in how he presents this issue.

What is the job of a pastor?  I believe their job is to shepherd and guide, not to be someone’s Holy Spirit. Their job should be to encourage people to seek God and Scripture and listen to God themselves.

If Chandler had prefaced his talk with, “this is my experience, but I can’t tell you what to do, that’s the Holy Spirit’s job,” I wouldn’t be writing this article.

Hearing Chandler’s words left me with questions:

  • If you kissed people you dated, did you have to do repair work later on when you got married?
  • Did your spouse care if you had kissed someone before him/her?
  • Did you feel guilty about kissing someone else before marriage?
  • Do you believe once you kiss, you can’t stop from going further?
  • Who is Josh Patterson?

photo credit: Haley and Michael via photopin (license)

61 comments on “Pastor Matt Chandler on Couples Who are Courting: “How Far is Too Far?”

  1. That is hilarious. He says: ‘The more physicality introduced into the relationship, the more you’re not going to talk’. They must have a very physical relationship because there was certainly ‘no talking’ from his wife. And I too would like to know who Josh Patterson is.

    Liked by 3 people

  2. I’m so glad you mentioned Todd Friel! I only recently heard of this guy through a link in a post here or at TWW. I followed the link which led to Todd’s bottom-line, bible- based lecture on complementarianism. I was so entertained that I transcribed the whole 20 minutes into a document and then, as an exegetical training exercise, dismantled every one of his proof texts and supporting texts. His condescending, eye-rolling, sarcastic delivery coupled with an appalling lack of scholarship practically begged me to do it. If anyone cares to spend two minutes viewing the man who set the stage for Mattt Chandler, here is the link:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osNlrpQnAv4 .

    Have fun!

    Like

  3. Both my husband and I were married before. We each have a daughter. Neither one of us cares that we have been kissed before. At all.

    It was pretty common in my day that couples kissed and went no further before the wedding. Purity culture views men as being out of control sexually. The woman has to dress like a Mennonite, he can’t kiss her, and they can only have side hugs or else he will be unable to control his lust. That is an insult to men who, with the exception of those who belong in prison, are perfectly capable of controlling themselves.

    Purity culture also seems to believe that any two Christians of the appropriate ages, denomination, etc. can marry and be sexually compatible. I disagree. Thinking back to my dating days, there were a number of perfectly nice young male friends who asked me out but with whom I never felt any chemistry as we used to say. I don’t think I ever could have. I can’t prove that since it was never put to the test, but I am certainly hearing about divorces in the purity culture for lack of sexual compatibility.

    My husband and I were friends for years. I knew he was attractive, I knew he was a man of character, I knew he was a great friend, but I didn’t know if we had any chemistry until our first date. He kissed me and we were planning marriage by the end of the day.

    Sexual attraction is an important part of the whole package but it is just a part. Purity culture seems to invest sex with a magical importance it doesn’t have.
    Purity culture believes that any kind of physical intimacy irrevocably ties two people together (which is silly). It also believes that love is a zero sum game. If you fall in love with someone and it doesn’t work out, you have given away a piece of your heart and have less love to give your spouse.

    Really? If you have one child, do you have less love to give a second? When does the supply run out? Does the last child in a large family get any love?

    I am glad my husband loved his first wife. It has taken nothing away from me. Their daughter has enriched my life. She tells people she had two mothers, one here and one in Heaven. Where is the zero sum here?

    I love my friends and family. I love my husband. He and I are fully committed to each other as husband and wife and as partners in life; that commitment is exclusive and it is what makes a marriage.

    Liked by 6 people

  4. I’d rather him not give his personal engine revving experience as anything more than his personal engine revving experience, but he’s free to get half the people in his church to chuckle at him and glance awkwardly at their significant other.

    It robs us of what God wants to build in us and we’ll have to repair it later? “I’ve asked *forgiveness* from my own wife?” This is where it crosses into “preaching opinion, knowing it’ll be taken as gospel” territory – sneaky. What does God want to build in us? Why are we still over-complicating and over-spiritualizing dating–sorry, COURTING and marriage?

    To answer your questions, JA:

    1. Neither of us have kissed anyone else but each other. It was certainly a concern for her – less so for me – but by no means a deal-breaker if it had happened.
    2. See #1
    3. See #1
    4. My now-wife and I dated for about 4 years before we got married. It went a tiny bit farther than kissing once, and we both stopped that immediately. Yes, you can stop the engine from reaching 4th and 5th gear. We are still happily married, and the only repair work being done is on the evil remnants of old patriarchal thinking in our minds. It’s good advice to pay attention to the revving of the engine – it’s legalistic to say you can’t stop it so you shouldn’t even start. Once you’ve mentally committed to marry each other (wife and I knew almost immediately), I’m really not sure who’s business it is but your own how far the two of you go. Really, as soon as Mr Chandler can find a command instituting a marriage ceremony in the Bible, I’ll happily listen up. Until then, my wife and I were husband and wife the moment we both knew between us we were committed to each other.

    Pastors might be better off just helping folks build character, so when it comes time for this in their lives, they make the best decision for themselves on their own. This here is simple fundamentalism – the Bible says flee fornication, so by golly we’re going to do everything short of having your first in-person meeting on your wedding day! Instead of training people to build the necessary character to “flee fornication”, you draw lines in the sand for them, nulling the Holy Spirit and personal growth at the same time.

    “And the question’s even flawed: how far is too far? Just honor, get to know the soul.”

    You could have ended it right there, pastor.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. “mouth-to-mouth” – Well, that excludes CPR practice. Why can’t he just say kissing, or better yet, the British version – snogging?

    Liked by 1 person

  6. First time commenter here, had to chime in on this one…

    This is your standard purity culture diatribe but one part in particular stuck out to me, where Chandler says “And that’s a place of regret in my own heart, and a place where I’ve sought forgiveness from my own wife.” How’s that for a scare tactic? It’s not only that a kiss before marriage with tarnish you to your future spouse, you will have to live with that regret your entire marriage.

    Is marriage intended to be a picture of Christ and the church or not? Because certainly in Christ all is forgiven, He doesn’t hold our past sins over our heads whether they’re sins against Him, others, or ourselves. I’m not sure what purpose that carried over guilt is supposed to play in marriage except to make it a miserable place of grudges and unforgiveness which is precisely the opposite of what it’s intended to be. Maybe this fearmongering is too effective because honestly, who would want to get married, never mind date, if this is what you end up with?

    My husband and I are in our late-20s and grew up in evangelical circles, so we got the full force of this teaching. After our first kiss he told me that he had talked with his counselor about whether he should kiss me at all or talk about waiting until marriage as many of his friends had successfully done. His counselor, THANK GOD, strongly advised him against it, suggesting the relationship may not last if I had no indication of whether or not he was even physically attracted to me. He was completely right.

    And that’s who should be giving you this advice, someone who knows you personally, your specific issues and “temptations” (as if sexual desire is inherently sinful), not a man who carried his perceived failings into marriage. You want to wait for a wedding ceremony to go “mouth to mouth?” Go for it. Just realize God never said anything about getting extra credit for doing so and excuse me for not taking advice from people like Chandler who seem like they don’t have the healthiest of relationships.

    Liked by 3 people

  7. Wow! I did a LOT of kissing (and nothing else) all through high school. Never once did I feel that I couldn’t “put on the brakes.” Know why? Because I made a decision (not based on any religion or dogma, by the way — just because I felt that college would probably be a better time for having sex, maturity wise, than high school) that was right for me, and I stuck to it. These guys don’t give young people enough credit — and they definitely give the message that young people should not be taught to trust themselves with their own sexuality. What hogwash.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Such a great comment, akbarratt! I’m glad you chimed in.

    This is excellent and I definitely agree with it!

    His counselor, THANK GOD, strongly advised him against it, suggesting the relationship may not last if I had no indication of whether or not he was even physically attracted to me. He was completely right.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. I think it’s a personal decision that needs to be made by each couple whether or not to kiss before the wedding. Maybe some couples are more comfortable waiting. However, not everyone is a horn dog. Just saying.

    My husband and I had more of a betrothal style engagement. We weren’t even allowed to kiss at the alter. Only hugs allowed. We know some couples that were required to have a chaperone with them whenever they were together.

    “If you kissed people you dated, did you have to do repair work later on when you got married?” No. I had a few kisses in my pre-cult days that went no further.

    “Did your spouse care if you had kissed someone before him/her?” No.

    “Did you feel guilty about kissing someone else before marriage?” No.

    “Do you believe once you kiss, you can’t stop from going further?” #HaHaNo

    “Who is Josh Patterson?” I cheated, and googled his name. Lead pastor of The Village Church?

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  10. Do you know how concerned I’ve been about my wife kissing other guys before we met? Not one bit, ever.

    As for his seeking forgiveness from his wife about kissing her before marriage, that’s between them and should stay between them. It provides no pastoral guidance when it is held out as a type of prescriptive example, i.e., “Watch out with that kissing on the mouth guys, or you’ll have to seek forgiveness from your wife and live with it for the rest of your lines!”

    And like Greg said above, who equates keeping yourself from kissing someone with fighting the good fight? Talk about taking a passage out of context.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. I may be the lone wolf on this one, but there are aspects of this man’s teaching with which I agree.

    First of all, it must be acknowledged that we live in a highly sexualized culture that essentially expects that dating couples will engage in sex prior to marriage. With this initial mindset, the kiss just cracks the door open and sets the stage for progression toward that end. The teacher’s view is that even a kiss is too far, because kissing is so much fun, and that feeling of connection and being loved is so intense that it is easy to understand how things progress over time. Getting started is easy, and I have to agree that stopping may not always be so easy. If kissing is the beginning and the end of the game, then the value of remaining physically pure should be more enthusiastically taught to our children, not only to avoid sexually transmitted disease or pregnancy, but to protect their hearts and minds. Sex binds two people together in a spiritual way that changes us forever. God designed it to be that way, but not outside of marriage.

    How many lives have been devastated by those who use and abandon their partners? Some women end up emotionally scarred and end up doubting their worth and begin to give themselves away, believing that sex is their primary value. How many lives have been broken because of date rape, unplanned pregnancies, abortion and STDs? All because we have cheapened sex instead of acknowledging it as a beautiful, holy union intended by God as a gift to those who are wholly committed to one another in love.

    I may not agree with everything this man said, but I think there is some very valid truth that can be taken from what he sought to share, truths this culture seems content to dismiss.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. If his point were true, wouldn’t that make extra-marital affairs inevitable? After all, if a coworker accidentally brushes your arm while handing you a pile of papers, wouldn’t that “start the engine?” Considering that most of us young people are put in time-out if we hold hands, the theory has some logic to it– if only the basic premise weren’t wrong.

    How does avoiding temptation make your ability to resist stronger?

    Liked by 1 person

  13. @zooey111:

    Oy. That ol’ boy is sure getting crazier by the minute. He’s gonna run the whole world, & call it “pastoring”?

    I think it’s called “Megalomania”.
    Or “Delusions of Grandeur”.

    “Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Capt Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity

    Liked by 1 person

  14. @rhondajeannie:

    That is hilarious. He says: ‘The more physicality introduced into the relationship, the more you’re not going to talk’. They must have a very physical relationship because there was certainly ‘no talking’ from his wife.

    He’s too busy Penetrating/Colonizing/Conquering/Planting and she’s too busy Lying Back and Thinking of England?

    P.S. Does deep breathing and grunting count as “talking”?

    Liked by 1 person

  15. @carolsnider:

    These guys don’t give young people enough credit — and they definitely give the message that young people should not be taught to trust themselves with their own sexuality.

    Maybe because “these guys” can’t be trusted themselves with anything sexual?

    “I have Problem X, so Everybody must have Problem X.”

    P.S. I have concluded that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.

    Liked by 3 people

  16. “I have Problem X, so Everybody must have Problem X.”

    Two heaping servings of projection seasoned with a dash of “do what I say and not what I do,” served on a steaming pile of “I hold the keys to the kingdom.”

    Liked by 4 people

  17. One first note is that the New Testament commands the early church to greet one another with a holy kiss–generally on the cheek–a practice continued by Mediterranean cultures to this day, I believe. Slavs often greet with a kiss on the lips, no less. So I would suggest that there is ample precedent for people to actually be a little more affectionate than they generally are today.

    (former boss of mine, a Canadian of Ukrainian descent, noted to me that when he visited relatives, every bone in his body rebelled against the standard greeting–it’s done when a man greets a man, too. Somehow it doesn’t lead to rampant homosexuality there)

    So no, I don’t greet people with a kiss (excepting family)–that would creep people out. But I do think that Scripture suggests that we Minnesotans (and others) might do well to think about how we might be meaningfully affectionate (not sexual) with each other.

    Probably the same principle holds in non-platonic kisses; what does it mean?. For Mrs. Bubba and I, kisses meant going steady, and hands to private places and more are for married people. Since we know from experience that a guy can kiss a gal without waking up with her the next morning, dusty old kisses from the past are not an issue for us.

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  18. BeenThereDoneThat: ” Two heaping servings of projection seasoned with a dash of “do what I say and not what I do,” served on a steaming pile of “I hold the keys to the kingdom.”

    LOL.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. And the question’s even flawed: how far is too far?

    He is right about this. For that reason I don’t care too much for the rest of his advice.

    I wish he would not have allowed the question to frame how he addressed this. It sounds like his instincts are pretty much good in how he wanted to address because what it sounds like he’s getting at when he says “just honor,” could have just as easily been said as “just love.” He is aiming for the relationship, which is the much better approach, but which you are not going to get at with a law based approach like “how far is too far?” But you are going to get there with a love based approach that seeks the good of the neighbor (in this case the romantic interest) and therefore is unable to desire wrong things* in regard to that neighbor. When that is the underlying attitude, the lines become evident almost by accident, or by themselves. And while you are at it, you will get maturity you won’t get from a “how far is too far?” approach.

    The biggest problem with the question besides stunted growth is that the question and it’s answer are not necessary in a love based relationship and aren’t likely to provide any power to restrain from sin in a law based one (if such can even be called a “relationship”). On the contrary, as we know the law tends to inflame sin rather than produce righteousness.

    The other thing is, one size does not necessarily fit all. Some folks have quite a bit more room than others between no physical contact and go til you blow. This is where the Holy Spirit (not Matt Chandler) informs the couple’s consciences. And as with all such things, the weaker conscience is defaulted to irrespective of the freedom of the other party.

    We did quite a lot of rather serious kissing but it simply never occurred to either of us to go further than that until after the wedding. And to this day we remain very affectionate and have very good communication as well. So I disagree with Chandler that once the engine is started the car will be driven off the cliff (paraphrasing). If that is true for him, then that sets the boundaries in his relationship. But not necessarily anyone else’s. In our case, it isn’t so much that we have a wonderful relationship because we abstained from s*x but abstaining from s*x during dating was a fruit of how we loved each other and sought each other’s good, a mutual disposition that remains to this day.

    *By this I do not mean the desire for $exual intimacy, per se, but if the context is wrong (outside of marriage) then the desire for the well being and righteousness of the loved one would override the desire for premature intimacy of that degree.

    Like

  20. I may not agree with everything this man said, but I think there is some very valid truth that can be taken from what he sought to share, truths this culture seems content to dismiss.

    Cindy, I don’t think that anyone would dispute that kissing can lead to further sexual behavior. It’s the whole package I have a problem with: it’s all or nothing, no between. As we’ve read in the comments, he’s wrong on the issue that it’s all or nothing.

    Because he is a pastor, people trust him to be backing up his stance with scripture. He can’t because there are no specific rules. He’s using his position to push his personal bias (which does have truth), but doesn’t leave any option available. Anyone who listens to this and has kissed someone will probably think: was I supposed to feel guilty for kissing my girlfriend/boyfriend? Should I have apologized?

    He’s creating a purity culture based on his extra-Biblical rules. I have a problem with this. I also have a problem with pastors enforcing extra-Biblical rules and failing to direct people to listen to the Holy Spirit or read God’s word. So in that regard, he is acting like our Holy Spirit.

    Oh, and don’t get me going on Lauren Chandler sitting quietly beside him. Has he even asked her what she thought about this subject? Or has he told her how she should be feeling/responding? Those are more questions I have.

    Liked by 3 people

  21. “Oh, and don’t get me going on Lauren Chandler sitting quietly beside him. Has he even asked her what she thought about this subject?”

    She sat there and nodded. That must mean that she agrees.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Okay, Matt you have just told on yourself. So you lacked the self control and by your own logic you and your wife had sex before your vows. Did she just lay there silently while you did your thing like she did in the video?? Your experience does not mirror all couple’s experiences.
    My husband and I were very affectionate, but chose to wait until marriage for sex. Some people don’t, but it is a CHOICE.
    On the flip side, I know a woman who waited until marriage and her spouse would make her lie perfectly still during the act. It got weirder from there and they finally divorced. I have written about a family member who was so terrified by sex, she wouldn’t let him touch her. That situation got worse and her husband left her.
    I say this to point out that whether or not you have a physical relationship prior to marriage probably has little to do with a successful marriage. There are horror stories on both sides. Marriage is about so much more. As to sex, it is a matter of conscience and should be between the people in the relationship!

    Liked by 3 people

  23. “Yay! Another eye-roller! Don’t hurt yourself.”

    You know that old saying that if you keep making a certain face that it will stay that way? I think there might be some merit to it. I seem to have a permanent eye-roll expression.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. This guy is a nut case. The man that I am seeing and I, kiss and hug on a regular basis. We have no discussion of marriage at this point and may not. We’re not at that stage at this point, but the kissin’ and huggin’ are great. I find this to be a non-issue for healthy adults, especially at our age. Getting the motor cranking high enough that anything else might take place with no means of slow down could take some serious effort.

    It really burns me when these idiots say such crazy things and their wives are forced to sit and listen. I have to wonder if Mrs. wants to beat her head against a wall.

    At any age, the word “No” should be enough for a cool down.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. The way I see it, if my daughter is kissing you, saying I love you and drawing hearts with his and her names in it, she has entrusted her heart to your care not to be broken. There is only 2 ways I see this relationship going, (I know that’s black and white so it is rejected, I don’t care) either a lifelong relationship (preferably marriage) or him breaking her heart, possibly resulting in serious injury to him. My best advice would be, don’t date (court) unless it is for marriage otherwise you break my daughters heart.

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  26. Darrell, that works fine until you realize you are dating a person you should never be married to in a million years. Then you really have to stop dating no matter how heartbroken you or the other person might become.

    The other option, of course, is let your parents choose your spouse for you and abide by their decision no matter whether it’s a wise match or not. That’s how the patriarchal wing of the complementarian movement want you to do it.

    Liked by 2 people

  27. Just the fact of being human in a broken creation means we constantly give pieces of our hearts. Why are romantic break ups so much more damaging than, say, my daughter (not Witch Hazel) whose best friend ditches her for people she likes better? Is the heartbreak any less profound, or meaningful, or important than if she’d had a boyfriend who dumped her?

    I guess it depends on how far you go with the “the (sole?) purpose of marriage is to reflect the relationship of Christ to the church” thinking. In which case, you’re still dissing those who have only friendships because they aren’t married.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. BTDT – That’s why the eyes must keep on moving. My eyes are capable at other looks too. At least I’ve been told that.

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  29. He kissed me when we were in first grade. 🙂

    I’m 58. Two boys said they were married to me in first grade. I told my mother. She said, “Tell each of them you aren’t married. You don’t have a ring.” I told them. A few days later one of the boys brought me a ring from a cracker jack box. “Now can we get married”? No one tried to hug me or kiss me. Are any little boys that sweet anymore? It might have been because of the “first comes love, then comes marriage, then comes —— pushing a baby carriage. None of us knew what that song meant, but marriage sounded nice to all of us.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. In fairness to the Chandlers, Friel used a clipped video, so we don’t know how much she said at all in the source video.

    As to the advice, does it apply to an 80 year old virgin still living with her 100 year old parents? I think some more lines need to be drawn.

    Liked by 1 person

  31. Darrel,

    God is an expert at broken hearts. Only in fundigelical circles is brokenheartedness a sin. In every other culture, it is accepted as the emotional fallout of not getting what we want. It’s important to our spiritual growth for all of us to be denied something so that we learn to love God more than our idols, formulas, and petty rules. Getting hurt isn’t a sin.

    Liked by 2 people

  32. Cindy, your comments made my eyes roll almost as much as chandler.

    ” How many lives have been devastated by those who use and abandon their partners? Some women end up emotionally scarred and end up doubting their worth and begin to give themselves away, believing that sex is their primary value. How many lives have been broken because of date rape, unplanned pregnancies, abortion and STDs? All because we have cheapened sex instead of acknowledging it as a beautiful, holy union intended by God as a gift to those who are wholly committed to one another in love.”

    So you share a physical relationship with someone and then break up. So What? Out in the real world, that is normal. Gotta date a lot of frogs, etc. How many young women who have normal, peer aged, consensual sex, end up as prostitutes? Not many? The women who believe that sex is their only worth, have been told that by Chandler and his ilk. Yes, rape can break a women, but what does that have to do with normal, peer aged, consensual sex? Most women have sex without unplanned pregnancy, abortion or STDs.

    Actually, you sound like a judgmental female version of Chandler so BUG OFF!

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Cindy has some wise words to say and I too believe God’s Word when He addresses the temple of the Holy Spirit, which is our physical bodies. We can learn just as much from wise females, who love Jesus, when addressing the subject of sex if we humble ourselves and take heed to their words.

    “Bug off”…….Entomology was one of my favorite college classes; had a brilliant, humble man for a professor and some interesting buggy classmates! We learned volumes.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. “Gotta date a lot of frogs”

    Dating the frogs and having consensual sex are very different things. I was raped of and through my childhood and did believe that sex was my only worth, so I married more than once and had more sexual abuse heaped on me by those bad choices. With God’s help and healing that is not a part of my life any longer. If you read my earlier comment, I am now in a very different kind of relationship. Mutual respect is a huge part of that.

    I don’t believe kissing or hugging someone you care about is wrong in itself and I make light of this kind of discussion. I find it crazy to think that most people are never going to be kissed before marriage or expect it won’t happen. When it comes to young people I would advise them to take sex off the table until they marry, but am realistic enough to know that it doesn’t always happen that way. I would also hate for a couple to get to the alter and find out they are kissing a frog because they didn’t get past that point in the courtship. I wouldn’t want one of my kids finding out they feel like they are kissing a sibling at a crucial point in life.

    Liked by 3 people

  35. We allow differing opinions here. That’s what helps us to challenge our thinking and beliefs. Please do not tell another commenter to “bug off.” Thanks.

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  36. I love you Brenda R.

    God never blessed me with earthly sisters, but He does bless me with beautiful and wonderful sisters through Christ Jesus. You are a such a blessing here, to me and others, for your words are always gracious.

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  37. I love you too, Katy.

    I hope all is better in your world. It is all God, girl, as I know He speaks through your heart also. Someday we will meet and what a happy reunion that will be.

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  38. Anonymous 2 I apologize for having harsh feeling towards you this morning. I thought you were accusing me of being a Fundegelical (figured it to be used in a derogatory way) who thought my daughter was in sin because she had a broken heart which would have been false. Again I apologize and ask forgiveness.

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  39. AHHHHHHHHHH Brenda,

    Now I’m cryin’ tears of joy here, salty ones. And what a blessed reunion that will be in the glorious presence of our LORD Jesus Christ and all of His saints.

    Jesus working in you and through you…..yes, I feel loved and know I am loved, therefore I can also share love, through Christ. God bless you forever.

    Darrell, I am deeply moved by your humility. God be with you too.

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  40. Foreword by John Piper to C. J. Mahaney’s “Worldliness: Resisting the Seduction of a Fallen World” ( 2008)

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT, Noel and I didn’t kiss in our wedding. It was the sixties. You had to rebel. You could either take your clothes off, or not kiss. We chose not to kiss. Within the framework of our immaturity, it was a good choice. That’s the way my rebellious streak worked most of the time — in-your-face conservatism. So there, all you copycat worldlings! I’m not gettin’ on your liberal wagon. It’s been a useful bent. There’s nothing especially godly about it, but it was redeemable. And I pray that over time it has been redeemed. It’s truths like those in this book that have made all the difference.

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  41. I like how people focused on the bug off and not the rest of my comment. So should I have said: Cindy, I feel that, like Chandler, you are condemning young men and women who might make different choices in expressing physical affection. From your comment, any physical contact, including consensual sex, before marriage is a step on the slippery slope to prostitution, abortion, STDs and rape. Please do not judge me and my sisters.

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  42. Carmen S,
    I have read the John Piper quoted foreword several times. Each time I read the portion: “You could either take your clothes off, or not kiss. We chose not to kiss.” I get confused. Does this mean they chose to take off their clothes instead of kissing??

    I think I may have had a couple of nights without enough sleep, but that is what it sounds like to me.

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  43. Brenda R,
    Lack of sleep will do that ;-). It means in the sixties the hippies ( liberals) did crazy stuff to flaunt being against the establishment. The establishment being the conservatives. Running around half-naked was a hippy thing. No, John Piper was never going to do that..so, what was left as a way for Piper to be conservative? Well, not kissing at his wedding fit the bill.

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  44. Carmen S
    I knew I had to be thinking wrong. His in-your-face conservatism was not proving anything IMO, whatsoever, except not allowing his new bride a moment that she will never have. However, the thought of kissing JP makes me nauseous, but I think Noel actually likes the guy. There is no accounting for taste.

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