Crumbling Foundation: How Do We Move on after Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard, our Spiritual Leaders, Have Failed Us?

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How do we move on spiritually when we have based our lives around the teachings of spiritual leaders like Doug Phillips or Bill Gothard who have fallen?

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photo credit: bittbox via photopin cc

 

With the recent scandals involving Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard, it is as if the spiritual rug has been pulled for some families. These men were so influential. People involved with ATI spent years homeschooling their children with ATI curricula, going to the yearly gatherings for ATI. Many families have been connected by ATI and now with their spiritual leader having stepped down, it makes one want to say, “now what?” Do we continue this homeschooling program? Do we leave? Where do we go? If this is wrong, what else is wrong? We’ve seen similar results with those who have followed Doug Phillips, his teachings and ideologies. My e-mails tell me this uncertainty is what many are facing right now.

 

David Auge sent me one of those e-mails and gave me permission to post it here as a springboard for discussion:

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With both of my spiritual “leaders/role-models” growing up in a homeschool family failing morally within a few months of each other, how does one re-adjust one’s gaze on Christ and not become a cynic about it all? There are times where I just want to switch “sides” or not associate myself with certain groups. 

People always say, “it’s easier to follow people than ideas and doctrine” but is that just the vanilla response to this situation? We just move along as if nothing really happened?

Kevin Swanson’s whole gay Disney thing…the whole Lourdes is not a victim thing…the whole Bill Gothard public confession-that-wasn’t-a-confession thing…makes you want to throw that annoyingly embarrassing baby out…with that bathwater…and why not?
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119 comments on “Crumbling Foundation: How Do We Move on after Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard, our Spiritual Leaders, Have Failed Us?

  1. “Crumbling Foundation:”

    “How Do We Move on?
    After Doug Phillips and Bill Gothard,
    Our “Spiritual Leaders,” Have Failed Us?”

    Kick a little, Shake your fist at God, Cry a lot – Then…

    Turn your eyes upon Jesus

    There is only “ONE” Foundation – Which never crumbles… 1Co 3:11…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  2. Cling to Christ and the truth of the Gospel is how I survived the cult I grew up in! Pray for wisdom beyond human understanding. Glory to God alone for His sustaining grace.

    Like

  3. My thoughts: stop buying books that tell you how to raise your children, live your life, define your marriage. If you are a believer, you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You can read and apply the scriptures to your life for yourself through the Holy Spirit.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. .

    “How Do We Move on?”

    “I have decided to follow Jesus”

    John 10:27
    My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and Follow Me…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  5. As long as people inhabit the earth, there will be the temptation to follow a trend, man, or group that makes them feel special. Doug and Bill are not the first, nor will be the last to deceive well meaning followers. The blessing in these two situations is they have been exposed for what they are. All men (and women) sin, but not all repent. As bad as their behavior has been, the lack of remorse exposes their true nature. God, in His wisdom will restore those who have been harmed. However, unrepentant predictors have a high price to pay. God will show His justice.

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  6. .
    Hmmm? “Spiritual Leaders???”

    And who is the cause of most of today’s abuse – “Spiritual Abuse?”

    In the Bible…
    Can anyone find any of His Disciples calling themself…
    Can anyone find any of His Disciples calling another Disciple…

    “Leaders?”
    “Church Leaders?”
    “Spiritual Leaders?”
    “Christian Leaders?”
    “Leaders to be Obeyed?”
    “Spiritual Authority?”
    “God Ordained Authority?”

    If NONE of His Disciples called themself, or aother Disciple, “Leader?”

    Why do WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Kings and Priests, His Servants…
    Call a “Mere Fallible Human” “our” leader?

    Especially since Jesus calls Himself “The “ONE” Leader. Mat 23:0 NASB.
    And teaches “His Disciples” NOT to be called “Leaders.” And NONE did.

    If someone calls them self “Leader?”
    If someone allows others to call them “Leader?”
    In “Rebellion” to what Jesus taught “His Disciples?”

    Are they one of His Disciples?

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  7. “People always say, “it’s easier to follow people than ideas and doctrine” but is that just the vanilla response to this situation? We just move along as if nothing really happened?”

    If I was finished reading Barb Orlowski’s excellent book, Spiritual Abuse Recovery, I might have a better answer to this question. I’m in the same place. One thing I have discovered is that it’s a process. Sometimes it’s two steps forward and one step back. Sometimes it’s one step forward and two steps back. Sometimes I put other issues on the back burner to focus on one issue that is priority. (Like focusing on my children’s education this year.) Because each of our situations and circumstances are different, there won’t likely be a “12 step program” to fit us all.

    Participating and reading this blog have been tremendously helpful. Just knowing there are others who understand is supportive.

    Like

  8. My flippant side of me wants to say, if they are a celebrity pastor, run far away and don’t look back, but that is too simplistic. There are well known pastors who are pretty solid. Not perfect, but solid.

    I think it helps to take a step back and evaluate what you were putting your trust in. Were you really being a Berean and actually studying Scripture to check teaching, or just accepting the proof texts and carefully crafted eisegesis that so many of these guys engage in? The objective standard is always the Word of God and not the sermon or teaching of any person. It is not proof texts pulled from Scripture and put together to prove a point, but the whole counsel of God as expressed in His Word, taken in context and viewed with the aid of the entire history of the church.

    It helps to always remember that man, any man, will let you down at some point. There is also no new, authentic revelation. There may be new methods, but there is no real teaching that is both new and correct.

    In these circumstances, it is necessary to recenter. That is much easier said than done. Bring the focus back to where it needs to be and reframe your beliefs and expectations.

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  9. .
    “Spiritual Leaders?”

    When all my “Mere Fallible Human” leaders failed…
    After ALL the Pain and Tears and Doubts and Fear…

    There was a tremendous benefit…

    I found the “ONE” leader – {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} – Who never fails…
    Who will never leave me nor forsake me…

    Jesus taught “His Disciples”

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    The Message – Mat 23:10-12.
    And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
    There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
    **Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
    If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
    But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.

    Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
    Mt 4:19 …*Follow me,* and I will make you fishers of men.

    If a Mere Human calls themself a “Spiritual Leader?” Church Leader?

    Are they one of His Disciples?

    If they are NOT one of His Disciples?

    Why do WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Bride, His sons, His Diciples…
    Listen to them? Follow them?

    Why Follow Mere Fallible Humans…

    When you can hear HIS VOICE and follow the TRUTH…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}

    Like

  10. I’ll share one of my experiences and hope this will be helpful to some readers.

    In the mid-1990’s I left a non-denominational church which went off the deep end on some issues. It was also a controlling place, although I didn’t realize that until sometime after I left. Following my departure from that congregation, I left church altogether for several years and did some things I now regret.

    Eventually I realized I needed to get back into fellowship and bring my life back into obedience. I returned to my liturgical roots (Protestant, not Catholic) and found a congregation where I still worship today. It’s not a perfect place, especially for those of us who are single, but I’m grateful that our senior pastor is far more interested in preaching the Gospel and making disciples for Jesus than building an empire for himself.

    One book I found helpful during the process of returning to church was Brennan Manning’s classic, The Ragamuffin Gospel. If you’ve been beaten up or beaten down by church or church systems, it’s definitely worth reading.

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  11. 1 John 2:26 (can’t paste anything)

    We talked about this on another thread. I recall Patrice saying something about gettting authority for yourself or something to that effect. this passage is how that works.

    This is something fundemental to not only being grown up but a mature meat eating believer.

    The” lord it over” guys want you on their personal brand of formula (milk)

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  12. 1 John 2:26-27 KJV
    These things have I written unto you concerning *them that seduce you.*
    But the anointing which *ye have received of him* abideth in “YOU,”
    **and ye need not that any man teach you:**
    but as the same anointing teacheth “YOU” of ALL things,
    and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

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  13. I would say there never was a baby in that bath water – if you look closely, Jesus never really was in those teachings. On the Recovering Grace site, someone compared the Christian communities desire to have a superstar leader to the Israelites desiring a king. The Israelites got Saul and we got this. We now have Christian leaders under new branding, hipper and modern, but with many of the same undercurrents. I think we need to be good Bereans and question everything, focusing on being loving rather than jumping on the shaming bandwagon when someone is not living up to the communities standards of outward appearances according to the correct sort of lifestyle. Many of these leaders claim to e living a counter cultural lifestyle according to the Bible, but the thing that was so counter cultural about Jesus is his stand against hypocrisy, his friendship and kindness towards adulterers, tax collectors, and the lowly of society. The message of many modern day Christian leaders of, “live this way and you will be part of the special group that God approves of more” is completely antithetical to the message of The Gospel of Jesus.

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  14. Ed,
    Hahahahahaha! Thank you for that. It even got a chuckle from my third grader who is reluctantly tackling a math worksheet.

    Like

  15. WouldRatherNotSay

    Yes – Much agreement when you write @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 7:16 AM…
    “If you are a believer, you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
    You can read and apply the scriptures to your life
    for yourself through the Holy Spirit.”

    WE, His Sheep, are warned many times in the Bible to NOT trust in man.
    There are False apostles, Many False prophets, False teachers, False christs…

    Psalm 118:8-9
    It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

    Jer 17:5
    Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man…

    2 Peter 2:1
    But there were “False Prophets” also among the people,
    even as there shall be “False Teachers” among you,

    2 Peter 2:3
    And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
    make merchandise of you: (Hmmm? Merchandise? Sound Familiar?)

    ———-

    And, WE, His Disciples, His Redeemed, His Ekklesia, are taught,
    WE, His Ambassadors, can learn directly from Jesus – NO middle man…

    John 6:45
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you ALL things…

    Deuteronomy 4:36
    Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
    that *He might instruct thee:*

    Psalms 32:8
    I will instruct thee and teach thee
    in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

    ————

    For me, it took awhile, before I believed Jesus was the best teacher…
    “The “ONE” Teacher… Mat 23:8 NKJV
    “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for
    “ONE” is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are ALL brethren.

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?
    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  16. JAS…this applies to so many situations. From CJ Waaaahaney and his 3 Stooges of fundagelicalism (Larry) Mark Driscoll (Mo) Mark Dever and Curley (John Piper)! :-p

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  17. A woman commented on another blog, I think it was Wilson’s, that she submits to those in authority over her. That’s dangerous. And it sounds strange to me; there is no person in authority over me (not counting the limited rule-based authority of supervisors when I worked or police officers when driving). I listened to my pastor’s sermons, but I was a Berean and checked with the Bible on my own. I sometimes sought his advice because he was a wise man, but I still weighed what he has to say. My husband and I are egalitarians and there is no need for one of us to be in charge; we talk out decisions. There has never even been a time when one of us was unsatisfied with our joint decision.

    I remember a couple in my old church who were having a disagreement over who was the head of their household. The husband went to the pastor, hoping for support, but the pastor told him, “Jesus is the head of your household.”

    I agree with what the other commentators are saying. If you follow Jesus and not a leader, your world will not fall apart if the leader falls. You may be sad or angry if your pastor or favorite Christian author is caught in a scandal, but you won’t have to rethink how you are living your life. That people are so profoundly shaken by the downfall of Phillips and Gothard is a clear indication that their teachings were not Biblical.

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  18. For me, it was not DP or B.Gothard it was the entire Institutional Church System, what I call, “Churchianity”. My issues were not with the regular folks , but with the System and those who are”Church Leadership”. I left it almost 4 and a half years ago. Actually I was “called out” meaning the Lord Jesus freed me and let me know that I am released from further obligation to “it”, and that I may freely follow Him, outside The System (organized religion Christianity) with Him as my Shepherd.

    I went through the stages of grief/ loss. I was very angry for about 3 years and had a lot of polemic ranting to do to get it all out of my system and process what I had gone through. I was in a process of de-toxing and I needed that much time. I could not move on until I purged. Also, part of the de-toxing was to consciously reject everything I now decided to be damaging to my soul. It was like de-brainwashing or cleansing out and repudiating the bondage and lies.

    Another thing that helped me greatly was coming to an understanding or believing; a new way of seeing, that all these things that I experienced, are actually all in scripture in the OT and NT in metaphors, and all this was written. So, understanding that God talks about all these things all throughout scripture, helped me greatly because it helped me know that God truly does understand and is as angry about all the abuse and injustice as are, whether the abuse was to us or to others in the flock.

    For example, all the ranting by the prophets in the OT .. Isaiah and Jeremiah etc, that is not just ancient history about “back then”, like I was taught in Church, but now, on this side of the cross, is a metaphor — it is now warnings and judgments and polemics against the religious leaders of Christianity. So many OT stories are about Christianity now. Another example is the gospels. So many of Jesus parables are about Christianity now. In the gospel narriatives, there is Jesus and the disciples, the multitudes, and the Scribes and Pharisees. This was taught to me as “just history” in Church but now I see it as also a metaphor for the different groups of people in Christianity…1. remnant who follow Jesus, 2. the multitude (who are as yet undecided as to whom their loyalty is given– Jesus or the Pharisees), and 3. the dangerous snakes & scorpions (the Scribes & Pharisees). Also as far as all the colorful rhetoric in the book of Revelation about the Harlot and Babylon… I now see it as referring to Christianity itself. I was taught in Church that Babylon was a city in the ancient middle east. Surprise, that visual is a metaphor for the corrupt Church System of Christendom. I never understood what “come out of her my people” meant until after I was completely out.

    So seeing the ironic nature of all this, the repeat of these patterns in scripture, from the OT, to the gospels thru the NT actually encourages, comforts and helps me.

    Writing this blog (revive me O Lord) was part of my de-tox and healing process. Here are two articles I wrote during that time.

    http://revivemeolord.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/jesus-cleansing-the-temple/

    http://revivemeolord.wordpress.com/2010/08/05/are-you-in-babylon/

    Before I left the IC, i had no idea that there were others who had experienced rejection and abuse from the System or the Leaders. I had no idea that there were others who had come out. During these last 4+ years I have found many people online and in person who have been very much traumatized by their experience in Church/ Christianity, yet they still believe and follow Jesus. They are experiencing a kind of de-Churching or de-toxing, and have had many ptsd symptoms as i did. I’ve found that God has led me to them for mutual comfort, strength, encouragement and help. Thanks for letting me share.

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  19. “A woman commented on another blog, I think it was Wilson’s, that she submits to those in authority over her. That’s dangerous.”

    That’s *exactly* how it worked in my former cult. They have all the proof-texts to “prove” it, too. You are correct that it’s dangerous. In my experience, my critical thinking skills were stunted. I opted for a “formula” to follow that supposedly brought sanctification. It’s very similar to Gothard’s idea of the “umbrella of authority.” If you stay under the authority of your “covering” God somehow moves through this chain of command to speak into your life. Here’s the kicker, though. If there is a crisis or something goes wrong, I’ve never once had a “covering” take any responsibility for the flub.

    It’s someone of a mental exercise to start thinking critically, but it’s so worth it. Yes, I have to take responsibility for my own mistakes. But, I’d rather that than having someone else’s mistakes foisted on me.

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  20. ” Umbrella of authority” or umbrella of protection. oh my goodness I heard that before. I came out of the Word of Faith and the New Apostolic Reformation and that term was tossed around a lot.

    Marsha you said:
    “A woman commented on another blog, I think it was Wilson’s, that she submits to those in authority over her. That’s dangerous.”

    Yes, it was on Wilson’s blog.

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  21. “For me, it was not DP or B.Gothard it was the entire Institutional Church System, what I call, “Churchianity”. My issues were not with the regular folks , but with the System and those who are”Church Leadership”.”

    Loretta, I am tracking with you. Mine was not patriarchy but seeker megas. The systems are the problem. I saw decent people go to work for them become thugs in no time. I am not giving the leaders a pass either. They created the system and allow it to function that way. They are not ignorant dolts.

    The system devours people especially staff. It is all about image and maintaining the system while trying to grow it. Yes, it is “churchianity”. If the pew sitters were not “buying” it would all be over.

    And I agree with you….there is nothing new under the same. We are seeing a parallel to the OT corrupt priests. and a parallel to God’s people begging for a “king” which made God angry because HE is the King.

    It has been around for millennia…it is all over church history which is an evil bloody mess. What bothers me the most is WE have freedom from a state church yet we got sucked into it. Why is that? It is almost as if a person can slap on a plastic fish, get a stage and a schick and people flock to it depending on the draw. They simply say it IS about Jesus when it isn’t. . Of course, in seeker megas the dirty little secret is they are always ‘recruiting’ because as many going out back door as new coming in the front. They should get turnstiles like they have at ballparks. :o)

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  22. O MY WORD. Cindy, Where does that come from?

    The symbol for “God” looks like some sci-fi masonic icon. LOL!

    The father is a hammer and the mom the nail? Ouch! The father hammers the mother nail and she shapes the rough diamond teen? Is that it?

    Check out the proof texting!!!

    Ooozes with love. snark

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  23. “Marsha you said:
    “A woman commented on another blog, I think it was Wilson’s, that she submits to those in authority over her. That’s dangerous.””

    Marsha. In her mind, she is off the hook. her authority is on the hook for her before God.

    She thinks the Nuremberg Defense will work on J-Day.

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  24. Cindy K @ 2:23 –

    Ugh! What a horrible visual. God with a hammer to beat it down into you . . . 😦

    Life is not one big chain of command and doesn’t function like that at all.

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  25. Cindy, that visual is not only repugnant but it’s heresy. God describes himself as a potter working with clay in forming it to his good purpose. He doesn’t call himself a diamond cutter who chips away at us!

    Thanks for showing us how bad some people’s view of God is.

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  26. Cindy that illustration is disturbing.. !
    Lydia I was in a mega- seeker for 20 years. After that i was in a small legalistic performance based “social club” Church for 4. I was never in a patriarchal type Church though years ago in the 90s, early 2000s i became aware of Rushdoony/Credenda-Agenda, political Reconstructionism, quiverfull, and certain “underground” type Christian publications, and VF via my homeschooling friends. I considered it for a short time then dumped it; i just had a feeling about it, that all that was cult like and creepy– but at the time I could not articulate why.

    I forgot to say in my first comment that after my de-toxing I basically had to start all over again from “square 1” , rebuilding from scratch my life with Jesus outside the System…such as what do i believe? How will i live? Like i said, I took time to let myself go thru the grieving process. The first thing that happened regarding “moving on” was realizing that i wanted to get back to my First Love, and just re-establish my relationship with Jesus, like it was in the beginning when I met Him, before I got “Churched”. Another part was getting clarity that I no longer chose to follow men or organized religion, I wanted to follow The Way. Another thing that happened early in my moving on was realizing that He was teaching me to cease listening to Popular Leaders and religious systems (Church) and begin listening to Him.

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  27. “Many of these leaders claim to be living a counter cultural lifestyle according to the Bible, but the thing that was so counter cultural about Jesus is his stand against hypocrisy, his friendship and kindness towards adulterers, tax collectors, and the lowly of society. ”

    So true!!!! Being of the world is ACTING like the world, which fulfills its selfish desires and puts others last. Being a Christian means treating the least of society as we would want to be treated, not holding up our snobbish heads at those in need.

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  28. For those who are distressed and who do not know their way, there is comfort found in this passage in Isaiah. Yahweh assures his people that he will be their personal guide, directing them through unknown country. He promises to keep them from falling into a ditch and to constantly be with them.

    But I’ll take the hand of those who don’t know the way,
    who can’t see where they’re going.
    I’ll be a personal guide to them,
    directing them through unknown country.
    I’ll be right there to show them what roads to take,
    make sure they don’t fall into the ditch.
    These are the things I’ll be doing for them–
    sticking with them, not leaving them for a minute.
    Isaiah 42:15-16 The Message

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  29. Oh, I figured that everyone would know what that was.

    It’s out of Bill Gothard’s big red book that they give you at the first Institutes in Basic Life Principles course.

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  30. Tim gets the prize. 🙂 It sounds like you’ve paid at least some price for it, Brother. Or you’ve had to help other people pick up the pieces.

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  31. Does the Bible teach there are no leaders? You have to have somebody who is organizing things, like a foreman for a construction company. The following talks about elders, but their are also verses on deacons and teachers. How do you guys interpret these? Not arguing, I truly am always curious and gathering info.

    Titus 1:5-9
    New International Version (NIV)
    Appointing Elders Who Love What Is Good

    5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe[b] and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

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  32. Loretta,

    Sounds like we are tracking quite a bit. My situation is quite similar.

    I am still cleaning up the last vestiges of leaving all of it behind, though, because so much of it included my family. It helps enormously to have fellowship with fellow travelers on these blogs. I met Cindy back in 07, I believe, and her continued research and resources helped tremendously. I especially needed to understand the physical side of coming out of these systems including what happens in your brain! I had no idea. Changed my whole perception of it. My personality type demanded quick healing and saw the grieving process as “weak” willed. I have changed that attitude because it only slowed up the process! DUH.

    I have to share with you all a great quote by my friend Argo from his
    unreformingtheology blog:

    “Forgiveness is good, but never having to forgive is even better. For when there is no violation of humanity, then there is no need for forgiveness”.

    I love this quote because it takes the focus off the victim and on to the abuser…especially those abusers who are long time professing believers who make a living hawking Jesus.

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  33. “Does the Bible teach there are no leaders? You have to have somebody who is organizing things, like a foreman for a construction company. The following talks about elders, but their are also verses on deacons and teachers. How do you guys interpret these? Not arguing, I truly am always curious and gathering info.”

    The problem is there is no formal organizational structure. Where do we see it being taught in every letter about elders? And if you look at the timeframes some churches did not get any for a long long time if at all. There is really no structure for what we have today with a “pastor” on a stage preaching to us week after week. Pastor is a function not an office. There might be many “pastoring” in the Body.

    Not exactly a fan of Viola but he did do a great talk on this very subject including the timeframes, etc.
    http://frankviola.org/straight.pdf

    One reason not a fan is this used to be free. But the info in it is very good as he put a lot of work into from a historical perspective and includes what is IN and is NOT in scripture. Many people out there making a strict formal system where there is not one.

    Besides everyone knows Cretans are all liars. :o)

    BTW: Important word in that passage, “blameless”. That one is big and in many places in both OT and NT. It is worth analyzing in light of what we see happening all over Christendom. It is a different way of looking at sin.

    Another good source is Pagan Christianity. Pastors hated that book. :o)

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  34. It’s out of Bill Gothard’s big red book that they give you at the first Institutes in Basic Life Principles course.

    I have my big red book handy because of the pic I took for a previous post. I could not find that chain of command picture in my 1981 copyright version (“chain of command” is indexed in the back of the book), so that image must be from an earlier edition.

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  35. “Besides everyone knows Cretans are all liars. :o)”

    Which raises the interesting question, if they are all liars, are we supposed to believe the prophet from Crete who told us they are all liars? 😛

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  36. My Gothard book is stuffed full of copies of other stuff that people photocopied and handed out to me. What a mess. There’s so much bunk that the guy’s produced that it’s not even funny.

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  37. loveoneanother,

    I will answer in A. Amos Love’s stead to your question:

    1.  Luke 22:25-26 New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)

    25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the nations hold power over their people. And those who order them around call themselves Protectors.

    26 But you must not be like that. Instead, the most important among you should be like the youngest. The one who rules should be like the one who serves.

    Let’s reiterate that:  YOU MUST NOT BE LIKE THAT.

    And

    2. Mark 10:41-43 New International Reader’s Version (NIRV)

    42 Jesus called them together. He said, “You know about those who are rulers of the nations. They hold power over their people. Their high officials order them around.

    43 Don’t be like that. Instead, anyone who wants to be important among you must be your servant.

    Let’s reiterate that:  DON’T BE LIKE THAT.

    You mention Elders.  Elders are like…no…not like…they are MENTORS.  Not leaders.  By the very nature of that word, it shows that they have “LIVED LIFE”, and as such, they are RESPECTED for their great wisdom, and knowledge.  Not because of their appointment as a leader.  

    In my day, the saying was “RESPECT YOUR ELDERS”.  Respect is not earned, but expected, due to them having “LIVED LIFE”. 

    And that is what Hebrews 13:17 is all about, because as Luke and Mark point out:  DON’T BE LIKE THAT, who orders people around, calling themselves PROTECTORS. 

    Mentors are much different than how you wish to present Christianity as a business or government.  There is no hierarchy.  

    Jesus is King of kings.  There is NO ONE above another.  We are all kings.

    Same rank.  Same pay grade. 

    1. Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.All Christians will overcome.  We all get to sit on the Throne of God, WITH God.  No one is in charge of another. 

    This is why I agree with A. Amos Love, even though we disagree that the word Pastor is in the Bible.  I know it is.  But a Pastors job is to “read” the Bible to us…that is the feeding.  We can do that on our own, since we all own a bible. 

    But, there are way too many extra biblical words being invented by Christianity, that never was intended by God. 

    Who the Son sets free is free indeed. There are many who call themselves Christians that are in bondage, and don’t even realize it.  I suspect that even you might be, as well, if you believe that Christianity is to be a government run institution.

    I never like “organized” religion.  I never liked “organs”.  Now, if we had guitarized religion…Rock and Roll!

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  38. Read the Bible yourself (with a good Greek/Hebrew lexicon) and perhaps some in-depth, denominational neutral, Bible study books. After someone twists what Christ said like that, you have to go back and ensure you actually know what Christ said. (Like Galations is such an awesome book about not being legalistic.) I also love Community Bible Study’s emphasis on just the Bible, no extra stuff. http://www.communitybiblestudy.org/ I’ve been very enriched by the class I took from them.
    In “Surprised by the Power of the Spirit,” seminary professor Jack Deere said that even many of his third year seminary students couldn’t point to the verses in the Bible that described tenets of faith like Christ’s deity and salvation by grace. The more Bible knowledge we have the less likely we are to be deceived by false teachers! The Bereans and all that.

    Like

  39. When I was growing up, I often heard something from my mother, and from my grandmother. [Here I go 😉 ]
    “There is only one Master. The One Who died, & rose again on the third day”. You didn’t call any human being a “master”, because there was only one Master. (Mama even worked out a way to avoid an M.A., whilst still hanging on to her teaching position; she would have had no problem with a doctorate, but, well…..Only one Master”.
    A lot of folks thought that they were both a little over the top on this subject…maybe so, maybe not, but I came up knowing that there was nobody in this world that had a right to be the “boss” .
    I read the post from ‘loveoneanother’ & something clicked in my brain that I had never connected together before: My great-grandmother had a favorite saying (in Dutch, which I will not even attempt to reproduce, but in that tongue, it is a play on words: “Trust in the Lord [der Herr], not in men [herren]”. Good gravy, I said; they were following her lead!
    God is in charge. I’m not in charge, you aren’t in charge; the government isn’t in charge, and your pastor isn’t in charge. The only One Who is in charge is He Who created heaven & earth; the One Who died on Calvary; the One rose from the dead on the 1st Easter morning.
    All those women of God who came before me knew one thing: There is only ONE Master, & unless you see the prints of the nails in His hands,that man or this man is not to be entirely trusted, much less obeyed.

    Funny how I never saw this so clear before in my life….

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  40. First of all Jullie Ann thanks for this, I am amazed how you continually tie these events back to the Gospel and to reconciliation of all involved. Oh my how awful of you :). (that is a smilie). Seriously I would burn (not literally) all the “heathens” just like they would burn us. Do unto others before they do it to you. I am wrong, you have taken the higher road and your detractors do not seem to see that. Shame on them.

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  41. Dave Auge: I think we humans always follow “people” one way or another because we are at bottom, social creatures who need each other. But we need to understand the nature of “following”.

    God gave each of us authority over our own lives, and no one should take it away from us. When someone tries to take it away, he proves he has no respect for us and also that he is greedy, because he already has authority over himself and that’s enough for any person. So if someone wants to determine for us what God is saying to us, how/when to go to church/pray, what to eat/wear, etc, that someone is acting illegitimately.

    Which doesn’t mean that we can’t learn from each other. Some people are wise, and we might “follow” them. But what we follow is the wisdom (when it’s there, no one is constantly wise). We can also dearly love the person, but that is separate from the relationship we have to their wisdom.

    Wisdom always respects and honors the persons that God made, just as honor and respect for God is the beginning of wisdom. Wisdom first of all brings loves, and then it also brings clarity.

    Then there is the person of God as Holy Spirit. The HS created us. We are his well-made artworks. He lives within us, knows us inside out. This is the only person who knows enough and is great enough to give our authority to. We are also completely safe there, since he is perfect and also loves us. This, then, is the person to whom we will listen most deeply and consistently (easy to say, takes a lot of “practice of the presence of God”, and even more to figure out how the HS speaks in each of us).

    As to more accurate theology, whatever you decide in the end, make sure that it’s big enough to include the whole universe. Our God is that big and even bigger, so any smaller theology does Him a great disservice.

    It’s important for you to be patient, as others have said here. Just live in the chaos for a while, it’s ok not to know what to do, you’ll figure it out over time. Pursuing God requires persistence, a lot of listening to silence, and a willingness to set aside all that one thinks one knows. It is completely worth the work 🙂

    I think your impulse to not associate yourself with certain groups is a trustworthy one. Back off for a while so that you have enough space to think things through. Sabbaths are days of rest, as are sabbaticals, and there’s the year of Jubilee too. Take as long as it takes. After that, you might or might not return to your former groups, you’ll see then.

    I don’t know if this is helpful. But either way, I hope you will find your place of peace again. It is hard to live in such confusion.

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  42. “Which raises the interesting question, if they are all liars, are we supposed to believe the prophet from Crete who told us they are all liars? :P”

    And how would they find elders who weren’t liars? Hee Hee.

    Like

  43. I do not do Facebook but there is a fantastic article at Sola Sister’s concerning DP and the law suit and a great discussion on Christine Packs Facebook, if anyone would like to go check it out. It is a good one…..

    Like

  44. Loretta

    I enjoyed your comments @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 12:34 PM…

    Much of what you write is true for me as well…

    “I was taught in Church that Babylon was a city in the ancient middle east. Surprise, that visual is a metaphor for **the corrupt Church System** of Christendom. I never understood what “come out of her my people” meant until after I was completely out.”

    It took me 4-5 years, after I left “The Corrupt Religious System” – but… When I finally became “completely out” I could read, understand, The Bible differently. Just looking for truth. NO longer a fear of man and what they taught. NO longer a fear of being wrong. I had already been wrong many times. Deceived many times. By those who said they were pastor/leaders. By those who said they were teachers.

    Today I see Jesus. – The only “ONE” in the Bible who called Himself…
    The “ONE” Shepherd, The “ONE” Teacher, The “ONE” Leader.

    After I became “completely out” I could now go along with, and believe, what Jesus taught His Disciples. I could now see differently, discern differently, The Commandments of Men, The Doctrines of Men, that become, The Traditions of Men, that Make Void The word of God, Mark 7:13, that I had believed, and taught, when I was in bondage to “The Traditions of Men” that was taught to me in “The Corrupt Religious System.”

    And – Me too – As you said…
    “Actually I was “called out” meaning the Lord Jesus freed me and let me know that I am released from further obligation to “it”, and that I may freely follow Him, outside The System (organized religion Christianity) with Him as my Shepherd.”

    And – Me Too – As you said @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 3:19 PM…
    “…after my de-toxing I basically had to start all over again from “square 1″ , rebuilding from scratch my life with Jesus outside the System…”

    “…I wanted to get back to my First Love, and just re-establish my relationship with Jesus, like it was in the beginning when I met Him, before I got “Churched”“

    Yes – “I wanted to get back to my First Love…” – {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?
    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  45. Patrice,

    You had said: “Wisdom always respects and honors the persons that God made, just as honor and respect for God is the beginning of wisdom. Wisdom first of all brings loves, and then it also brings clarity.”

    My response: Very wise words.  We had a saying in the military:  “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.  Wisdom is not something that can be “appointed” to someone.  Elders are supposed to be appointed due to being wise.  An elder is not a youngster.  Youngsters follow the lead of the wise.  Most elders who are appointed needs to “get out of the way”, for they are not wise at all.   They are just following orders, and in turn, barking orders to others. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  46. Anne Garboczi Evans,

    What you said is my hope and prayer for all Christians.  We all have a Bible, and should have a lexicon.  Why people don’t “dig in”, on their own, is beyond me.  Once a person has the word planted in their soul, based on independent reading/studying, it changes everything.  The preachers can preach anything they want, then, and we know if it is true, or false…just like the Bereans

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  47. zooey111

    This was really great @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 9:25 PM – Loved it…

    “it is a play on words: “Trust in the Lord [der Herr], not in men [herren]“.
    Good gravy, I said; they were following her lead!

    God is in charge. I’m not in charge, you aren’t in charge; the government isn’t in charge, and your pastor isn’t in charge. The only One Who is in charge is He Who created heaven & earth; the One Who died on Calvary; the One rose from the dead on the 1st Easter morning.

    All those women of God who came before me knew one thing: There is only ONE Master, & unless you see the prints of the nails in His hands, that man or this man is not to be entirely trusted, much less obeyed.”

    Yes – Only “ONE” Master… {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    And in my experience with the “Title/Position” of *Today’s* pastor/leader…

    “Titles” become “Idols” ………….. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters”……..A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV

    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”
    “Church Leaders” become “Deception Breeders.”
    Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV

    And, NOT one of His Disciples called themself – pastor/leader/reverend…

    And, as Lorretta pointed out @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 12:34 PM…
    “My issues were not with the regular folks,
    but with the System and those who are”Church Leadership”.

    Most I’ve known started out wanting to serve God, and serve His People. Like me. 😦 But, once they become part of “The System” and experience the Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, that comes with the “Title/Position” pastor/leader things change. It is like any addiction – Very difficult to walk away from. And the Power, Profit, Prestige you have is NEVER enough. You always want more, Power, Profit, Prestige, and more, and more….

    And before long these pastor/leaders, who started well, become, controlling, manipulating, Exercising Authority like the gentiles, and Lording it over God’s heritage…

    Pastor/Leaders = Exercise Authority = Lord it over = Abuse = Always…

    Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
    but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
    Pro 20:17

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  48. loveoneanother

    You ask @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 5:35 PM…
    “Does the Bible teach there are no leaders?”

    Today – What I find the Bible teaches, what Jesus teaches, **His Disciples”
    In the Bible, Is there is – **The “ONE” Leader**

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Jesus taught “His Disciples” in…

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    And, seems, His Disciples believed what Jesus said, and taught – Because…
    In the Bible, NOT one of His Disciples called themselves – pastor/leader/reverend.

    If you, “loveoneanother,” or anyone reading this…

    Desire to be one of **His Disciples?**

    Who is your “Leader?”

    Who do you “Follow?”

    And, “loveoneanother,” or anyone reading this…
    If you call yourself “Leader?” Allow others to call you “Leader?”
    Are you one of His Disciples?

    Why do you want “His Sheep” to follow you?

    When “His Sheep” can be Fed by, and Learn from, and Follow…
    The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  49. I second what Anne Garbozci Evans said. And you keep going back to the word over and over. Also let your kids read it over and over in context and talk about the different literary senses that each passage could possibly mean without belittling any interpretation. Talk about things like what does the Bible not say. For instance, are we to assume that Jesus never laughed because it doesn’t say he laughed? I had a great grandmother who thought laughing was sin. How about male leadership, it never specifically tells males that they are in charge of women so how can we make an entire doctrine on it? Also read very learned scholars and theologians on opposite sides of the fence of doctrines that are important to you.
    Because I was raised with So many differing denominational bents and extended family with completely different religions altogether, I HAD to find out for myself what to believe when I “found” God for real.
    Oh and for the record, pattij553 and Patti are both me.

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  50. This hit me pretty hard due to the fact that I bought (ashamed to say it now) into the whole Vision Forum fantasy- perfect family, perfect kids, perfect future. It definitely put a lot of guilt on me and pressure (from me) on my husband when our life wasn’t turning out like I thought it should. For me, after the initial shock, this whole thing has brought freedom. I no longer follow the “famous” Christian leaders or buy their stuff. From now on it is Christ and His Word I will look to for my direction in life.

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  51. Patrice, I really like what you said about us being our own authority yet still being able to follow when we recognize that god is using another’s life to help us. We are the ones who place another person as an expert for us whoever it might be for whatever it might be that we want to learn. THAT is how I interpret Hebrews 12 and 13. It is about following the faith heroes not the overseers of our church corporations. We must use the study tools available to us today, and really look at the tools. For example, we can’t just look at many different translations because although I use blueletterbible.org quite a bit, all the translations they list for Hebrews 13 are biased, but they at least did not doctor their lexicon so we can still see if we think the translations are correct or not. Blueletterbible.org is owned and operated by a denominational biased association that is heavy into obeying your leaders whatever that means.

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  52. “For example, we can’t just look at many different translations because although I use blueletterbible.org quite a bit, all the translations they list for Hebrews 13 are biased, but they at least did not doctor their lexicon so we can still see”

    I learned a lot hanging around some translation blogs. One thing I learned is that linguists/historians are much better suited for translation than theologians who have often been indoctrinated and have an agenda.. I also learned that lexicons can most certainly be biased. One place we see that is with Authenteo used in 1 Tim. A word used ONCE in the NT that has been become a doctrine of it’s own about women having authority over men. Historical records of how the word was used in the 1st Century are totally different than how it is translated and interpreted.

    An irony is that the misogynist, Chrysostom wrote a few hundred years later that men should NOT authenteo their wives. So we know it is something sinister men should not do with women, too. It has the connotation of sinister domineering and false teaching.

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  53. I got that book you recommended “God’s Word to Women” for my kindle (or maybe it was Cindy K – someone on another thread recommended it) and just last night was reading the 1 Tim. context. That was interesting. I knew Nero was bad, I just didn’t realize it was that bad. I also didn’t realize how if something law in Rome it would pass on to all the other provinces, even if the local governor didn’t pass the law there.

    (My understanding from the book is that when Paul wrote 1 Tim. Christians were very much persecuted, and he was instructing Timothy to teach Jewish women Christianity quietly (maybe secretly would have been a better word choice), because the Jews very much hated for their women to be converted.)

    It’s a challenging book to process, and will take several readings to get it.

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  54. loveoneanother

    You make a reasonable assumption @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 5:35 PM…

    “Does the Bible teach there are no leaders? You have to have somebody who is organizing things, like a foreman for a construction company.”

    I was in construction, and yes, Formans were helpful for organizing. But, I also could read the plans and could point out to the Forman when he was wrong. And he would listen. Getting to the TRUTH was important. We could dis-agree.

    Ever try pointing-out to a pastor/leader where they are wrong?
    Or ask, Where is the “Title/Position” senior pastor/leader in the Bible?
    Yes I have – And when I dis-agreed, the results were NOT pretty. Ouch!!! 😦

    And, having “leaders” in Christian-Dumb sounds beneficial for organizing.

    But, Let’s take a LQQK at what Mere Fallible Humans who have taken a “Title/Position” pastor/leader, that is NOT found in the Bible for one of His Disciples, and what these pastor/leaders have accomplished in “organizing” Christian-Dumb.
    Emphasis on Dumb… 😉

    Today, WE, His Sheep, His Called Out Ones, His Ekklesia,
    Can see what pastor/leaders have organized, and brought into existence.

    Let’s see – Today – WE, have…

    The Traditional Church,
    The Institutional Church,
    The Religious System Church,
    The Steeple $ Corporation Church,
    The 501(c) 3, non profit, tax deductible,
    Religious $ Corporation, that the IRS calls church,
    The Brick and Mortar Church,
    The Pastor Led Church,
    The Multiple Elder Led Church,
    The Congregational Led Church,
    The Pope Led Church,
    The Bishop Led Church,
    The “Chief Executive Apostle” Led Church,
    There really is a Chief Executive Apostle
    No Kidding. Saw it with my own eyes. 😉
    The Fluid Church,
    The Solid Church,
    The House Church,
    The Simple Church,
    The Organic Church,
    The Small Group Church,
    The Institutional Church,
    Oh, I said that one already. 😉
    The Denominational Church, (Hmmm? Any Denominations in the Bible?)
    The Non – Denominational Church,
    The Inter – Denominational Church,
    The Intra – Denominational Church,
    The Underground Church,
    The Full Gospel Church,
    The Mega Church,
    The Baptist Church,
    The Lutheran Church,
    The Evangelical Church,
    The Charis maniacle ism Church,
    The “Pente” – it’s going to – “cost”- you – “a Lot ism” Church,

    Hmmm? Does this sound like pastor/leaders are “organizing” well? 😉

    And, none of them are working very well. Oy Vey!!! 😦
    The Folks, believers, and pastor/leaders, are leaving in droves.

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

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  55. loveoneanother

    Wikapedia says there are now 40,000 Denominations. Oy Vey!!!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L…..ominations

    Even if they overstated by 90%, that’s still 4,000 Denominations. 😉

    Most of the 4,000 denominations, started by, organized by, Pastor/Leaders who were NOT happy with, or dis-agreed with, other denominations organized by Pastor/Leaders. – Who were NOT happy with, or dis-agreed with, other denominations organized by Pastor/Leaders. – Who were NOT happy… Are WE, His Sheep, seeing a patern here with those who think they are “Pastor/Leaders?” And how well they are at “organizing?’

    How does that sound to you? As a witness for Christ? 4,000 denominations?
    And – Most denominations will say the Bible is the word of God…
    And they all dis-agree about sumptin…

    Does thousands of denominations, started by, organized by, pastor/leaders, give the world, or me, a lot of confidence in being “Led” “Organized” By a pastor/leader?

    “Chaos” anyone?

    Seems that’s what “Pastor/leaders” have produced, have “organized.”

    Nope – I do NOT think there is much benefit for me, or God, with me being connected to, an organization, organized by, a “pastor/leader.” 😉

    I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul. 🙂

    I have a wonderful Shepherd/Leader.

    His name is {{{{{{  Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  56. “got that book you recommended “God’s Word to Women” for my kindle (or maybe it was Cindy K – someone on another thread recommended it) and just last night was reading the 1 Tim. context. That was interesting. I knew Nero was bad, I just didn’t realize it was that bad. I also didn’t realize how if something law in Rome it would pass on to all the other provinces, even if the local governor didn’t pass the law there. ”

    it is a very deep intense book and I am not saying I agree with all of it. Remember, we have even more information now from archeology, lost scrolls, etc. Her research on the Isaiah 3 passage is excellent. It blew my mind.

    But she makes you think and she asked for opinions from the great scholars of that time. I must have read it 10x. It is so earmarked and marked up I need a new copy. It is a great book and I recommend it to everyone. Some lessons are online for free if people want to check it out:

    http://godswordtowomen.wordpress.com/

    (They are not in order. Some blogger copied them and put some up)

    I do not remember the 1 Tim lesson off hand . But if you notice some lessons refer to other passages so it goes back and forth and you might get more insight from other lessons.

    We often overlook 1 Tim 1 for context. Paul talks about those who deceive others on purpose (Hy and AL) and those who are deceived out of ignorance. So the focus is false teaching problems. That fits with the following chapter where the woman “authento” the man (her husband most likely) was deceived out of ignorance so he did not name names. Paul, himself, was deceived out of ignorance as he mentions in chapter 1. The historical context means so much. Ephesus was the sight of the temple of Artemis/Diana a fertility cult that taught that Eve was created first. The cult was because so many women died in childbirth. So it makes sense Paul was using a play on words that women would be saved by “the childbearing” (meaning Messiah).

    Can you imagine living in such a pagan city with the wonder of the world, the temple of Diana and being a new convert? Oh my.

    Bushnell is the one that got me doing the research on Teshuqa in Gen 3. I was stunned at how bad we have been lied to. She was a brilliant woman. A doctor in a time women were not doctors. She taught herself Greek and Hebrew, was a missionary to China, etc, etc. her book was almost lost. Someone found an old copy and had it republished.

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  57. Anne Garboczi Evans,

    I am not saying this to be mean but I know from experience….Jack Deere is a false teacher. Please be a Berean and check out what he believes.

    Like

  58. Teresa N,

    I am currently reading a PDF about Jack Deere.  The author of the PDF does not like Jack Deere, and talks bad about him.  But what is the topic about his dislike?  Gifts of the Spirit.  Jack believes…as I do, that the gifts did NOT cease after the first century Christians.

    I do believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today, as well as back then.  When will they cease?  When Jesus returns…then there will be no need for the gifts.

    Yes, those who do not believe in the gifts will certainly call Jack Deere all sorts of names, i.e. heretic, etc.  Count me in as a heretic, too, because I believe what he believes.  Or wait…I am a Christian, and I do not doubt that Jack Deere is a Christian.  But the cemetary…er…seminary that he once taught at kicked him out once they found out he believes in the gifts for today.  Imagine that!!

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  59. “Here is the link to the article on Sola Sister’s then click on her name to see what people are saying on her facebook page, http://www.solasisters.com/2014/04/doug-phillips-repentance-and-justice.html

    The Sola Sisters recommend Martha Peace, Ken Ham, Voddie Baucham and McArthur books? Yikes.

    However, I am getting a kick out of the Reformed/comp/pat movements response to DP. It is scaring them because the entire system is being questioned and analyzed.

    Like

  60. My own story and experience:

    I converted to Christianity in the early/mid-90’s via the radio ministry of one Harold Camping. Yes, the “end of the world” guy. This occurred in the midst of his very first of many failed end-of-the-world predictions in 1994. He was a somewhat nationally recognized figure, especially in Christian circles, and even appeared on Larry King Live with his spiel.

    He was president of the world’s largest Christian radio network, and spread his false teachings in numerous languages. His prediction failed, of course, and there was a fairly big fallout, including a church split and hundreds of people who abandoned him. I was one of the people who left after I figured things out (there were many other problematic teachings besides eschatology).

    How did I move on? Well, it was an extreme embarrassment in front of family and friends. I realized that in following his teachings that I had developed an elitist attitude toward doctrine and other people. Many other people in his group did, too. I made a list of all the people I knew who were affected by my beliefs and actions, and went to them with apologies and repentance.

    “Moving on,” though, has taken over 15 years. But, if you have gone through something like this, know that you now know what is wrong, and can recognize signs of it in the future. The school of hard knocks can be a good teacher.

    Although you will lose friends, you may also have ones who are in the same boat, having to leave the same influence. Talk to them. Hash things out. They can be a great source of encouragement. My friends that left Camping’s teachings were a good help for a few years. Also realize that as you move on, you will discover more things that are wrong with the teachings for years to come. But you will also discover new things. New people who are sympathetic toward your past are also key.

    I will also admit to being cynical about “most of it,” as I have gone through several “systems” of belief that had negative impact. This may sound cliché, but I have some level of trusting God that I will be in a better situation in the future, even if it takes many years.

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  61. However, I am getting a kick out of the Reformed/comp/pat movements response to DP. It is scaring them because the entire system is being questioned and analyzed.

    It’s pretty funny watching this predictable behavior: defending, explaining, challenging, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, etc.

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  62. Yes, those who do not believe in the gifts will certainly call Jack Deere all sorts of names, i.e. heretic, etc. Count me in as a heretic, too, because I believe what he believes. Or wait…I am a Christian, and I do not doubt that Jack Deere is a Christian. But the cemetary…er…seminary that he once taught at kicked him out once they found out he believes in the gifts for today. Imagine that!!

    The gifts of the spirit is NOT a primary doctrinal issue. John MacArthur has pretty much said lately that he’s worried about you if you believe in the gifts of the Spirit – -he dances around whether or not you’re saved or not. This kind of talk is so obnoxious. It’s the same kind of talk by Ken Ham and Young Earth Creationism,. It’s also the same kind of thing from Strachan, Moore, Mohler, Stinson, Mahaney on complementarianism – that if you do not adhere to their gender role ideas, then there are grave concerns about your salvation. Utter nonsense. I’m tired of church leaders judging others on divisive secondary issues.

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  63. Chapmaned24,

    Has nothing to do with him believing in the gift of the spirit.

    I come out of the charismatic movement, Word of Faith/New Apostolic Reformation.
    jack Deere is part of the NAR. He got mixed up with John Wimber from the vineyard movement. Jack Deere prophesies over people and does not believe that a prophet has to be 100% accurate. Matter fact he say he Apostle Jack Deere, which biblically that is impossible because the criteria for an apostles was to see Jesus in the flesh. He believe that God speaks to directly via revelation that he can not back up with scripture. It is not in the word but God told me, no way. God will not go against his word.
    Research Joel’s Army, the vineyard movement, the latter rain movement, Manifest sons of God, kingdom now theology, Dominionism, his involvement with Cindy Jacobs, C Peter wagner, Bill Hamon, Todd Bentley (Lakeland revival) , Stacy Campbell, Bob jones (not bob jones university) Paul Cain, Dutch Sheets, Rick Joyner, Chuck Pierce, and many more. These self proclaimed prophets and apostles believe that God has given them the authority over the local church and these 7 mountain, to take over world for Jesus, to purify the church and cleanse the world and once they have done this, then and only then can Jesus return. Jesus can not return until they have done this, then they usher in Jesus and hand the keys to the kingdom over to Jesus. How do I know this because I was in a church that was under Bill Hamon. Jack believes this.

    research the 7 mountain mandate. That is enough cause I think I opened a can of worms.

    Do you remember when Gov Rick Perry had that prayer rally in Texas well most of these guys were there. They have an agenda and it is not a biblical one.

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  64. JA,

    Did not mean to change the subject or high jack the thread, sorry.

    Having come out of that I felt I needed to say something, so I did.

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  65. Teresa, I, too, am concerned about NAR/ 7 Mountain. It is indeed troubling.

    I think Ed was bringing up a totally different subject – a subject that has been in the spotlight due to John MacArthur’s Strange Fire conference.

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  66. Hi A Amos and everyone, thanks for the replies. I enjoy hearing other people’s beliefs. Sorry I wasn’t here to respond, I had an event all day. Yes, I beleive Jesus is the person we should follow and only God and His WORD are infallible. I do beleive in leaders, but just like many of you were saying, they should be SERVANT LEADERS. No one has the right to think they are somehow above you. We are all just sinners saved by grace.

    JA: Yes, the John MacArthur Strange Fire thing is disturbing because he gives so many absolutes. My mother sent me a whole bunch of literature based on the fact we go to a Calvary Chapel and that we have wrong doctrine. Just like any church, I’m sure there is wrong interpretations of Scripture here or there, but the bottom line is we love Jesus and want to be more like Him. It is scary when leaders think so highly of their position and opinion on scripture that they question the salvation of those who think differently. It makes me wonder if I should throw give away my MacArthur study Bible. It is so pretty though…..and leather.

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  67. Teresa N.

    Well, I will check those guys out, too…but I must tell you that when you said that “it can’t be backed up in scripture”, I was in a debate on J.D. Hall’s blog site, called Pulpit and Pen, in regards to the movie “Heaven is for real”.  J.D. Hall is a pastor, and there was another pastor that I was in harsh discourse with, because they said the same thing, that if God wanted us to know what heaven is about, then God would have revealed it in scripture.  So, they went on to say that the child is a liar, or, that his parents planted ideas in his head so that they could get rich.  I was defending the child.  In the end, J.D. Hall, a pastor that insists on Hebrews 13:17, told me to go take some acid.  Remember, Hebrews 13:17.  So, he and the other pastor do not believe in “revelations” or “dreams” or “visions” outside of scripture.  To them, they have a catch phrase called the “sufficiency of scripture”.  If it isn’t written in scripture, they don’t believe it.  They cannot fathom near death experiences.  They think it’s a hallucination, or a wild imagination.  Not me.

    Now, don’t get me wrong, I do believe in sola scriptura, in opposition to the Catholics, that believes that the words of the Pope is an extension of the Bible, but I do believe in the gifts are for today, and the dreams, visions, and revelations are real.  It’s happening in the Muslim world, where Jesus is revealing himself visually to them.  I cannot dismiss that.

    “When that which is perfect come” is what scritpure states in regards to the gifts ending.  That is Jesus.  When he comes, then it will end.

    In regards to the word Apostle, I’m not so sure, as Apostles were set up in the church, just like evangelists, teachers, elders, etc.  I do know that the Apostle requirements to replace Judas was just as you say, however.  I would have to take a look at this in more detail.

    Ed
    ________________________________

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  68. Ed, You were debating with J.D. Hall of Pulpit and Pen. That says it all. I saw that comment where he told you to take acid. (Was it acid?) Anyway, I know he told you to take drugs and I can’t believe a Christian, let alone a pastor, would say such a thing. Very revealing, huh? But he’s interacted here, so we already knew how he behaves. Ugh.

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  69. Julie Anne,

    Teresa was warning against the name Jack Deere that Anne Garboczi Evans had mentioned authoring a book called “Surprised by the Power of the Spirit”

    Jack Deere’s beliefs are strange to some, not strange to others.  I guess that it’s mostly false prophecies that is the subject matter.  But, for those who don’t believe in the gifts for today will say that anyone who prophesies is a liar.  That’s just default.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  70. People are seeking answers. They may have thoroughly read the Bible, or not understand it well. Gurus and popular leaders like Doug Phillips interpret scripture and prescribe medicine for social ills and basic human flaws. They can never live out their ideology or philosophy. They feel they’re above everyone else due to their position. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. People like Gothard, Phillips, and Swanson, are probably confidence tricksters, or at least exceptional public speakers that brought into their own hype. Maybe we should ditch leaders like these. Some new charlatan will find another Bible verse that contradicts whatever another popular preacher teaches elsewhere. Perhaps we should admit that our actions define us, and that temptation and desire is a reality.

    Instead, take it one second at a time, treat yourself with forgiveness and honest. Know that you can think through our challenges without a corrupt leader. If we all try to do this, we may be less susceptible to the Phillips/Gothard replacement and the next hot ideology.

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  71. Julie Anne,

    I had to re-read it…It was LSD.  I think that is the same as acid, I don’t know. 

    Marsha, Thanks.  Yep their berating a little boy, who isn’t little anymore, was just sickening to me.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  72. Ed,

    I have my own opinion of Jack Deere and we will leave it at that. I can not trust this guy, let alone the names I mentioned to you. I never said to you that the gift of the spirits have ceased but I will say that when someone give a prophecy and it does not come to pass or they give a prophetic word over a person and it is nothing more that fortune telling, then I must discern that by the word of God. I had to come out of that movement the same as others had to come away for Bill G., Doug Phillips, and so forth. I spent countless hours researching, praying and reading my bible and I do not know it all, still learning just like everyone else.

    That was my spiritual abuse and believe me it was not fun. When you see a butcher knife being toss down a pew after the female pastor stabbing an umbrella talking about “umbrella of authority and protection” I ran for my life.

    There are people in the charismatic movement that actually speak against the NAR.

    I just gave my opinion and my experience that is all I can do. thanks

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  73. Tereasa,

    Oh, I believe you.  I just need to do more research.  As a matter of fact, J.D. Hall accused me of being in the Word of Faith movement.  I never responded to that charge.  The closest that I came to “charismatic” was attending a few fringe Pentecostal services with a friend of mine.  I don’t believe that their version of speaking in tongues was the actual speaking in tongues.  It seemed way too phoney.  In addition, their beliefs about women were a bit strange, too.  They all dressed as if they were from the 1830’s, horse and buggy days…long hair wrapped in a bun, dresses made out of jeans material, etc.  And if the men even attempted to grow a beard or mustache, that meant that they were in rebellion.  They all had to dress in suit and tie.  Just those things alone told me to get out of there. 

    The PDF that I was reading did mention false prophecies.  That is what I would like to research.  Testimonies of those who he prophesied over.

    There is a guy on TBN (I haven’t watched TBN for several years now) named Kim Clement.  He is another one that has also been accused of false prophecies.

    Self appointed, not anointed.  However, I’m sure that Anne Garboczi Evans had her reasons, and a point to make for referencing Jack Deere, outside of his false prophecies. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  74. Ed,

    I got Anne’s point for sure. Kim Clement is with the NAR, he is way out there.

    I just thought I should mention my concern about Jack Deere.

    Like

  75. Hi loveoneanother

    Glad you’re still here.
    As you can probably tell this “church leader” thing is a pet peeve.
    And I was ordained. I was “Church Leadership.” Oy Vey!!! 😦
    And I Abused, I Exercised Authority, I Lorded it over God’s kids. 😦
    Both – A Big No, No. Mk 10:42-43

    You write @ APRIL 26, 2014 @ 9:48 PM

    “I do believe in leaders…”

    “but just like many of you were saying,
    they should be SERVANT LEADERS.
    No one has the right to think they are somehow above you.”
    ————–

    For you, what does that mean – “I do believe in leaders…”

    What is this “Leader” supposed to do?
    Who are these “Leaders” supposed to “Lead?”
    If I wanted to be a “Leader?” What would I have to do?
    Does someone have to meet any standards to be a “Leader?”
    How would WE, His Sheep, His Body, recognize, – Who is this “Leader?”

    “Not arguing, I truly am always curious and gathering info.”

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  76. “The closest that I came to “charismatic” was attending a few fringe Pentecostal services with a friend of mine. I don’t believe that their version of speaking in tongues was the actual speaking in tongues. It seemed way too phoney. In addition, their beliefs about women were a bit strange, too. They all dressed as if they were from the 1830′s, horse and buggy days…long hair wrapped in a bun, dresses made out of jeans material, etc.”

    Ed,
    I can’t wait to be comfortable enough to finally tell you all which church I came out of.
    I still count the experience I had with the HS as precious. The rest I’m still sorting through. I so wish some of the “leaders” in these movements hadn’t made such a caricature of the gifts of the spirit. Someone on a forum called Azusa Street Survivors said that Pentecostalism was often the last stop out of Christianity. I don’t believe that’s entirely accurate, but I understand what he was saying.

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  77. BTDT –
    I’ve seen some lively groups, running the backs of the pews, down the aisles, laughing, crying, slain in the spirit, etc. It’s an experience, to be sure.

    That wasn’t a part of my Foursquare experience, but I found as we went to other charismatic churches, the focus was the “gifts” and it seemed very out of balance to the basics of Scripture, relationship with God, etc. I wanted that “experience” and if I didn’t get that experience, I felt something was wrong with me. Well, you can’t fabricate that kind experience on your own – it’s a group experience. That’s when I knew I was in the wrong place and had the wrong focus. A relationship with Christ should not be based on an experience. So, back to the basics I went.

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  78. Beentheredonethat, if it helps, I spent more than a quarter of a century in the Assembly of God church. It was a wonderful church with an outstanding pastor. There is nothing wrong in attending a Pentecostal church per se.

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  79. JA-That would have been interesting to watch! Yes, there is definitely a difference between believing in the gifts of the Spirit and having a circus going on. You wouldn’t actually even know my church was “charismatic,” so to speak until you had probably been there a year and heard him speak on certain passages. I’ve never heard anyone speak in tongues. It was just a fantastic reprieve for me to have the HOLY SPIRIT in the believer’s life more of a focus after it had been all about what the pastor had said we should be doing in our lives.

    A. Amos-I think it is wonderful that you are able to recognize the bad leadership you may have portrayed. That takes humility. We have all done things that we look back and think….”Wow, what was I thinking.” I cringe at certain things I did and said in the name of Jesus.

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  80. loveoneanother – that was more of my experience, too.

    I also don’t want to discount corporate worship as a wonderful expression of praise. Can you imagine the dancing and choruses in heaven? I’m talking about the kind of disruptive style where attention is drawn to people, rather than God.

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  81. Maybe what made my former cult so damaging was the blend of “circus” with patriarchy. Either one would have been bad enough, but both? I googled some names a few days ago and the results turned up a stream of comments on Jen’s blog. She calls this place her “favorite ‘cult.'” Oh, hang it. If anyone is interested this is my former cult and Jen’s “favorite ‘cult'”
    http://tinyurl.com/nu9a5j2
    At least one of the commenters discussing this place on Jen’s blog has commented here as well. Maybe it’s time I brought this place into the discussion.

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  82. I think the following verse really applies to this post in that we have the Holy Spirit to teach us and don’t need to rely on those who put themselves in a position of spiritual authority.

    1 John 2:27 NLT
    But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

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  83. The church I mentioned in my earlier comment in this thread began embracing some of the more bizarre aspects of the so-called “Toronto Blessing” and “Brownsville Revival” in the months before I finally left. It was also a “Jewish roots” church, and as time passed I noticed increasing pressure to adopt practices such as keeping Jewish dietary laws. Some even changed their names to more Hebraic-sounding names. As these things happened, there was less of an emphasis on the Gospel.

    When the pastor began saying that those who didn’t agree with the Toronto and Brownsville practices were in danger of going to hell, that’s when I decided it was time to get out.

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  84. “BTDT, What courage. Good for you.”

    Thank you, Lydia. Truth be told, I’m a little terrified. Okay, more than a little terrified. I don’t want to hijack the thread. I just want people to know that they can get past this, and it will get better.

    It’s distressing when you’re plodding along, raising your kids a certain way, living a certain way, believing a certain way. Then, as if a little child pipes up and says, “But, he hasn’t got any clothes on!” you find yourself reeling. It’s exactly like Julie Anne titled this post about the crumbling foundation. Maybe my foundation wasn’t built on the Rock like it should have been. I substituted something else instead. I want others who’ve been affected by recent events to be encouraged. It’s not always easy, but they’ll look back and realize they’ve gained ground.

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  85. Marsha,

    I grew up attending the Assemblies of God, but my mom and her friends there supplemented with Word of Faith. When I moved to the Bible Belt, I dove head first into the strange end of the pool, believing that there was more that would fix everything that was wrong with me. I ended up in a church very much like Sovereign Grace/CLC on my transition out.

    I was given many precious gifts while in the Assemblies, including a profound respect for the Word and how to study. Since I was exit counseled and after 24 years of marriage to someone who grew up Lutheran, I’ve developed a profound respect of how Lutheran my understanding of grace and salvation really are — with some pentecostal distinctions. I was truly blessed by the good mentors that I had around me. (Not all churches, even within the same denomination, are good ones.)

    I still visit Pentecostal churches and would have liberty to join one if I believed that it was best and the Spirit gave me leave to do so. (I don’t think it’s likely, but I don’t rule it out.)

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  86. In Julie Anne’s original post, she discussed Bill Gothard and Doug Phillips failing us. One could easily substitute other names and circumstances and still come up with similar situations. For example, how about substituting C.J. Mahaney or Mark Drsicoll? They’ve let folks down, albeit in different ways. Or if one wants to go back some years, how about the Fort Lauderdale Five or Graham Pulkingham? The same could be said for plenty of other folks who aren’t household names. The pastor of the church I described, for example, wasn’t a household name.

    Another thought: one common thread I see in a lot of these control-oriented preachers or communities is a low view of singles, along with fear that singles will succumb to sexual temptation unless strict rules are imposed on them, their behavior, their dress, etc. I can’t help but wonder if the period of rebellion I went through in my 30’s and early 40’s was a response to the judgments and, on a few occasions, false accusations heaped upon me as a never-married man. Even today I still deal with questions such as “Why aren’t you married?” and “Why don’t you have any children?” as if I’m of little value because I’m single and childless.

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  87. Julie Anne,

    You said: ” I wanted that “experience” and if I didn’t get that experience, I felt something was wrong with me.”

    That is exactly how they make you feel, too, that if you do not experience it, then you are not a Christian, because you don’t have the “GIFT” of the Holy Spirit, meaning, that you don’t have the Holy Spirit at all.  And that seems to be all that they concentrate on.

    I do believe in it, but there are phoney ones out there.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  88. Singleman,

    That reminds me of a few people that I know that insist on people saying YaHaVeh, instead of just saying God, or The Lord, etc.  And Jesus must be pronounced YeShua.  Also, the dietary laws as well.  Religion is so weird.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  89. A. Amos

    I realized I did not answer the last part of your question. I like to hear what other people base their beliefs on, because it is good to discuss. I think that the several verses I see in the new testament pertaining to elders, teachers, deacons, etc. clearly show there is leadership within a church. Now what that means to people differs based on denomination. I homeschool my kids, and thus, I have been thrust into a leadership position whether I like it or not. Am I lord over them? No!!!! In fact my 17 year old constantly convicts me of sins in my life by just being such a wonderful, humble kid and i constantly have to apologize to him.

    Similarly, if I ask a group of friends to my house for a Bible study, I am almost always, by default, expected to lead. Does that mean I know a more than the person sitting next to me? No, but somebody has to facilitate. I think of Cindy K. who has a heck of a lot of information on theology, doctrine, etc. She “leads” much of the conversation here because people are interested to see what she has to say. I don’t agree with everything she says, just like I don’t agree with everything my Pastor says, but we are free to disagree and still love Christ. My Pastor always tells us to be Bereans and not trust a word that he or anyone else says. Instead, we should read the Word and let the Holy Spirit show us His truth. That being said, there are times when we see a brother or sister that is clearly violating God’s law, like in the case of Doug Phillips, and we must step in and lovingly bring them to repentance. (Although, I think he is not a believer, so that brings up whole other issues). I am assuming you enjoy talking about this too, but sometimes it is hard to see if people are upset on a thread, so I hope that is not the case. I was actually thinking of you in church today because the pastor brought up several instances of how we are to be serving others and that leadership is no better than any of us. So that is the servant leadership par:) It’s weird how something you were just having a conversation about can show up in a message. I’ll put a link to it tomorrow. So, yes I think leaders should be qualified to lead by being humble, willing to listen, and willing to be admonished when they are in sin. And that is a requirement we all should follow! I think in some ways we are saying the same thing but in different ways? I would assume you don’t believe in anarchy?:)

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  90. Singleman,

    You are of value here and I greatly appreciate what you have shared. I have done posts on singles and how they are sometimes marginalized. It makes no sense. Jesus was single. Duh! (I sometimes speak my kids’ lingo when it fits. Lol)

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  91. Wow…a LOT of conversations on this thread.

    This was VERY encouraging for me. I’m 27 and was raised in both camps (VF and ATI) and have my own story in Recovering Grace (http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/11/my-life-in-ati-part-one/)

    My parents will state strongly that they didn’t tell me how far to go down the rabbit hole but the whole, “look like me, check those boxes, now you are more Christ-like” appealed to me tremendously.

    I was raised in a church that stressed a LOT about the judgment/justice of God. I would (like Martin Luther) mentally (not physically lol) flog myself on a weekly basis (each Sunday) over my sins.

    This week’s Sunday school we went over when God had the Levites slay 3,000 children of Israel after the Golden Calf incident. That face of God was the one I was the most familiar with growing up.

    I understand what you all are saying, love Jesus, follow Jesus, Jesus Jesus Jesus…and I know in my mind and heart that is the right answer.

    In my logical mind…sometimes it all seems too easy and I have to do some more research to understand it all…

    I was that guy who would take a passage out of Scripture that was controversial or politically incorrect and try to figure out why it’s there and I used to know a bunch more on all the tiny issues, (thx to the NCFIC movement for making me dig deeper into doctrine-this is actually a legitimate thx…having to understand why people believed certain things the way they did really helped me to grow in the Word).

    I dunno, I guess I’m just one of those guys who had to understand the “why” something was there in the Bible and that need to know has gotten in the way of the basic nitty gritty of it all – Jesus and I’ve sorta replaced him with parachurch organizations to fill that need to feel like I was on the road to sanctification.

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  92. “My parents will state strongly that they didn’t tell me how far to go down the rabbit hole but the whole, “look like me, check those boxes, now you are more Christ-like” appealed to me tremendously.

    I was raised in a church that stressed a LOT about the judgment/justice of God. I would (like Martin Luther) mentally (not physically lol) flog myself on a weekly basis (each Sunday) over my sins.”

    I totally understand this. My family was and still is very into rules and appearances and I could never live up to their standards. It makes it worse when they represented God as someone who was very into rules and appearances. The abuse mixed with a misrepresentation of Scripture brought me to tthe point in my adult life when I said, if this is who God is, then I cannot please Him and I don’t want to be a Christian anymore. Thankfully, God used that to show me a true relationship with Christ.
    My question to you is “How do you honor and respect your parents despite them not recognizing your pain and hurt?” This has been very hard for me and I am very fearful of them. But, a lot stems from them denying any abuse that happened to my siblings and I. Instead, we are told how difficult we were as children:)

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  93. loveoneanother,

    Just remember back at the beginning, with Adam and Eve.  They were in ignorance of Good and Evil, when in the Garden.  Satan tempted them to GET KNOWLEDGE. 

    Remember, God said to them, “WHO told you that you were naked? (Genesis 3:11)”  Satan didn’t.  He only enticed them to find out what the rules were (to get knowledge of good and evil), to wit:

    Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Satan enticed them to get their eyes opened to the rules.

    But God did not want them to know, for he said to not eat of it.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  94. Hi loveoneanother

    Thanks for the well written and thought out comments.
    And, explaining where you’re at with “Leaders.”

    Sounds like you are in a good place right now. With Jesus… 🙂
    In your Spiritual Life, and where you fellowship. That’s nice to hear. 🙂

    You write…
    “I am assuming you enjoy talking about this too, but sometimes it is hard to see if people are upset on a thread, so I hope that is not the case.”

    Yes – I enjoy talking about these things.
    I now feel they are vert important for His Body to talk about.
    Especially when most of The Spiritual Abuse is by leaders, church leaders.

    And – Nope – I’m NOT up-set ar all. I’m glad you took the time to explain.

    I was pretty much with you, agreeing with you, for a long time.
    Much of this was taught to me, and I inturn taught, in The Religious System.

    But, when I started over, after the Spiritual Abuse, I saw things differently.

    Like Lorreta said @ APRIL 25, 2014 @ 3:19 PM…
    “…after my de-toxing I basically had to start all over again from “square 1″ , rebuilding from scratch my life with Jesus outside the System…”

    I’ll just leave you with a few verses for now, that helped me see differently.
    And this is also for others, who are today, outside The Religious System…
    And are wondering about this conversation about “Leaders.”

    It was after I left The Religious System of today, tore up my papers, and walked away from “Church Leadership,” that I realized Isaiah, had prophesied about my “Leadership skills.” And the “Leadership skills” of the rest of todays “Church Leaders.” No really… 😉

    Isa 3:12 KJV
    …O my people, *they which lead thee* cause thee to err,
    and destroy the way of thy paths.

    Isa 9:16 KJV
    For *the leaders* of this people cause them to err;
    and they that are led of them are destroyed.

    Some legacy todays “Church Leaders” are creating for themselves…

    I’m in agreement with King David…

    The Lord is my Shepherd. 🙂

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  95. And – loveoneanother

    Have you considered the ANT?

    The ANT is small and insignificant – Or is it?

    Proverbs 6:6-8 KJV
    6 – Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
    7 – **Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,**
    8 – Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

    Guide – 07101 qatsiyn
    KJV – ruler 4, prince 4, captain 3, guide 1; 12
    Thayers – chief, ruler, commander, dictator, ruler (of one in authority)

    Overseer – 07860 shoter {sho-tare’}
    KJV – officers 23, ruler 1, overseer 1; 25
    Thayers – official, officer./

    Ruler – 04910 mashal {maw-shal’}
    KJV – rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4, 81
    Thayers – to rule, have dominion, reign, cause to rule, exercise dominion.

    ————-

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  96. loveoneanother

    And, I’m very sorry to hear about your challenge with your parents and how they presented Jesus to you, and the abuse.

    I know this hurts…
    “My question to you is “How do you honor and respect your parents despite them not recognizing your pain and hurt?” This has been very hard for me and I am very fearful of them.”

    I can understand a little, my parents, my family, my wife, disowned me…
    When I became a believer… sheesh – go figure…

    I could tell you what seemed to work for me.
    It was a hard time. A dark time.

    Today, I can give thanks for all things.
    But then – Just Pain, and Doubt, and Fear, and lot’s of Tears…

    The benefit was – I got to know Jesus – Had NO place else to go.
    It sounds easy when I write it now – But it wasn’t easy then.

    But, In my opinion, for what is worth…
    You do sound like you now have a good foundation in Jesus, and His Love.

    The only enCOURAGEment is…
    Just hang on to Jesus. Learn to hear His Voice.

    When He, Jesus, tells you – You’re okay – I love you just the way you are.

    You’ll know you’re Okay – And His opinion is the only one that matters.

    Jesus loves you this I know…

    Be blessed…
    And continue to be a blessing…

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  97. Thanks A. AMOS, that was very sweet. So sorry to hear about your wife and kids, that sounds absolutely terrible. I’m glad that God is merciful enough to show us who he truly is when we seek him.

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  98. Ed,

    I like the sayng “ignorances is bliss” because sometimes the more you know, it is hard to stomach that knowledge. I look at my dog who is so happy to see me, even if I have only been away for a moment. She lives in the moment. It is the same with little children who have not been burdened by the cares and evil of the world. I think that is why Jesus says to come to Him as little children. Just trusting, loving faith. Just as my dog doesn’t worry about if I’m going to put food in her bowl, God wants us to be able to live in the moment and trust for his provision. Those who have been blessed to have ultra – loving fathers probably understand this love and provision well. He wanted Adam and Eve to remain innocent and worriless. Satan wanted to take this away. —Hey, just writing this out makes me feel better.
    Thanks Ed!:)

    Like

  99. goosemon

    You write…
    “to fill that need to feel like I was on the road to sanctification.”

    Yeah – that road to sanctification is filled with a lot of pot holes. Ouch!!!

    Yup – Me too..
    “now you are more Christ-like” appealed to me tremendously.”

    Yup – Me too…
    All I had to do was try harder, pray more, give more, read the Bible more…
    Always, more… more… more… To NOT sin – To Please God…
    Always trying to become gooderer and gooderer, betterer and betterer…

    Always looking at myself – And seeing what I’ve done wrong…
    And NOT looking at Jesus – And seeing what Jesus did for me…

    Today I’m looking at that word “sanctification” differently…
    From what I was taught in The Abusive Religious System”

    Started seeing that **WE, His Sheep, His Disciples..
    ARE sanctified – by ONE offering – HIS own blood…

    1Cor 1:2
    Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
    **to them that ARE sanctified in Christ Jesus,**
    called to be saints, with all that in every place
    call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

    Heb 2:11
    For both he that sanctifieth and they **who ARE sanctified** are all of one:
    for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    Heb 10:14
    For by ONE offering he hath perfected for ever
    **them that ARE sanctified.**

    Heb 13:12
    Wherefore Jesus also, that he might
    **sanctify the people with his own blood,**
    suffered without the gate.

    Think on these things for awhile…

    You are free to be ye, just the way you ARE goosemon.

    Php 4:8
    Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true,
    whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just,
    whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely,
    whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue,
    and if there be any praise,
    **think on these things.**

    Like

  100. loveoneanother,

    You get it!!  I sure wish that others got it, too.  The rules are a barrier to faith. 

    However, the religious experts, which never cease to amuse me, will say that the rules enhance faith, give meaning to faith, etc.  Those are some strange so-called experts.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  101. Ed

    Me too

    “I never like “organized” religion. I never liked “organs”.
    Now, if we had guitarized religion…Rock and Roll!”

    🙂 😉 😉

    Like

  102. BILL GOTHARD HAS NEITHER FAILED ALMIGHTY GOD, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, HIS FAMILY, HIS TRUE FRIENDS &-OR ME ! ! !

    Truthfully, Honestly, Sincerely Yours And Faithfully Recorded & Submitted,

    Tony Cisneros
    2011 (& Possible 2015) Candidate For City Treasurer
    City Of Chicago
    State Of Illinois
    United States Of America

    Like

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