Queen Bees of Homeschooling Stacy McDonald and Kelly Crawford Don’t Like the “Victim” Word in the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips Lawsuit

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Well-known homeschooling moms Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald comment regarding the “victim” word with regard to the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips lawsuit.

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Doug Wilson comments as follows regarding Doug Phillips’s sexual sins against Lourdes Torres-Manteufel:

Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips lawsuit, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel Screen Shot 2014-04-21 at 9.20.41 PM

 

(Trigger warning for survivors of victimization by sexual abuse or assault, and/or spiritual abuse.) There has been a heated discussion at Doug Wilson’s blog on an article entitled Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum.

Wilson discusses why he thinks Lourdes Torres-Manteufel should not be called a “victim,” that it is prejudging the case to do so, especially because she was an adult when the sexual incidences occurred.

Here is this classic response from Wilson – someone who has no clue as to how sexual abuse victims respond:

But if his attentions were entirely unwelcome to her, and she was freaked out by the creepster, then we have to ask why she wasn’t down the road at the first opportunity — that night or the next morning — with Doug Phillips receiving notification of her opinion of what transpired via the sound of sirens. That’s not what happened, on anyone’s account, and so I don’t think we should identify her as a victim.

Presently there are 163 comments. I found the comments that affirmed Wilson’s stance repulsive – just as repulsive as this: The Real Doug Wilson Encouraged & Presided Over the Marriage of Serial Pedophile.

I think what was most infuriating to me were the comments from well-known women who are part of Christian Patriarchy Movement. Let’s start with Kelly Crawford. In a few days, she will be speaking fairly near me at a homeschooling conference. Look at the lineup of Patriarchs: Ken Ham, R.C. Sproul, Jr., Scott Brown, Israel Wayne, Marshall Foster. Doing a simple Google search of Doug Phillips’ name with any one of these men will yield multiple results and their connections together in “ministry” work.

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Kelly Crawford, Scott Brown, Israel Wayne, Ken Ham

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I couldn’t find much of a bio on Kelly. She is a homeschooling mom of 10. She is a speaker and blogger who once had Vision Forum affiliate ads on her blog’s sidebar. Let’s read what she has to say on Lourdes as “victim”:

Kelly Crawford, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel, Doug Phillips lawsuit Screen Shot 2014-04-21 at 9.13.31 PM

Kelly Crawford

April 18, 2014 at 2:58 pm

And finally, I breathe a big sigh of “amen” for the first, that I’ve read, of real discernment over the situation, and a wise call to hold adults responsible instead of perpetuating a “victim” culture. [Emphasis added.]

Since the first pieces started popping up on the scandal, I’m saying, “why is she a victim?” We are talking, by the way, about a confident, assertive young woman and *nothing* like the mousy allusions I’ve read. Don’t ask me how I know.

“We cannot accuse Vision Forum of treating all women like little girls, and then turn around and treat all women as little girls who can’t be expected to say no to a cad at Vision Forum.” [JA note: This sentence she quotes is from Doug Wilson’s article.]

I can’t thank you enough for saying this.

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Here are two more comments on Doug Wilson’s article from another well-known woman in Christian Patriarchy Movement, Stacy McDonald. (Incidentally, this week her husband, Teaching Elder – another way of saying “pastor” in family-integrated churchesJames McDonald has jumped on the popular defend-the-Patriarchy bandwagon with his own article, The “P” Word.)

 

Stacy McDonald, Doug Phillips lawsuit, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel Screen Shot 2014-04-21 at 9.16.30 PM

Thank you, Pastor Wilson! You nailed it! I’ve tried to say the same thing and was accused of not having sympathy for the “victim,” which no one can prove she was at this point.

However, I absolutely DO have sympathy for the fact that she was used by a man in power – a man she had respected and revered. She was seduced into a sinful relationship by a “religious” man who represented godliness to her. I agree there is no excuse.

She said she was told that he would marry her. She said she was told that his wife would die soon and they could be together. Sickening. She said she was in love him. Why would these words have even been significant unless she felt deceived by his promises – deceived into going along with it in some way? And then realized it was never going to happen – she was being used.

Any time an insecure young woman is cajoled into a sexual relationship by a man – especially a married man, she is being used and taken advantage of. The impact is multiplied when “religion” is involved.

But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar. Or perhaps an intern to the president…

That is part of the reason men are called to protect women, which makes this disgraceful thing all the more tragic.

I realize that the fact he was a Christian leader compounds the influence he had over her emotionally, but she still owns her own sin. And I still maintain that the truest victims here are his wife and children. [Emphasis added.]

And that says nothing of the public spectacle it’s become inside and outside the church or the smug satisfaction oozing from every anti-patriarchy blog out there.

Thank you again.

“By this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.” (2 Samuel 12:14)

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More from Stacy McDonald:

April 19, 2014 at 9:33 am

I guess I’m confused as to how asking for $10 million dollars from him and his victimized family is a cry for help. And, if she had not gone to the media, but instead sought Christian arbitration; and, if her family, her church, and the people in her community all wound up believing her, wouldn’t that be enough? Besides, “everyone” is not going to believe her anyway.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some sort of restitution if her claims are proven true. But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church).

I think if it were me, trying the case in the court of public opinion would hardly be satisfying anyway. Everything decently and in order. Isn’t that part of why we are Presbyterian? This is chaos.

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Ok, a lot of people reading articles here at Spiritual Sounding Board are connected with the Torres-Manteufel versus Phillips lawsuit. This issue of how the public views Lourdes Torres-Manteufel is important.

These two ladies – Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald – are highly respected in Christian Homeschooling networks, so people who adhere to Patriarchy will be inclined to follow their voices.

  • What are your thoughts on their words?
  • What do you see in their comments?
  • Is Patriarchy a safe environment for women who’ve been sexually violated?

Try putting yourself in Lourdes’ shoes and consider taking a look at the entire Doug Wilson article for yourself – Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum – and the range of comments there. (Repeat: Trigger warning for survivors of abuse.) What words of support and encouragement would you have for Lourdes here, in response to the comments about her there?

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442 comments on “Queen Bees of Homeschooling Stacy McDonald and Kelly Crawford Don’t Like the “Victim” Word in the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips Lawsuit

  1. “We cannot accuse Vision Forum of treating all women like little girls, and then turn around and treat all women as little girls who can’t be expected to say no to a cad at Vision Forum.”

    Absolutely true. But we are not treating “all women” as girls who cannot say no, only those who actually had a steady diet of patriarchy messages that tells them they should be obedient little girls. Women who do not have the resources, in the patriarchy enviroment, to get away from predators.

    “Since the first pieces started popping up on the scandal, I’m saying, “why is she a victim?” “I … was accused of not having sympathy for the “victim,” which no one can prove she was at this point.”

    If you actually read her words, you would see a lot of things she did not consent to and asked him to not do. Even with a narrow definition of victim, that makes her a victim, provided she speaks the truth.

    “I realize that the fact he was a Christian leader compounds the influence he had over her emotionally, but she still owns her own sin.”

    By Old Testament Patriarchy thinking, adultery is sexual activity with a woman who is someone else’s wife. Wives were not, in OT patriarchy, acquired by a ceremony, but by sleeping with an un-betrothed woman. If you did, you could be forced to marry her – with or without having other wives. As such, if a woman believe that a man is making a marriage commitment, she will not be in sin by going along with this marriage proposal. Under Old Testament law, she really did no wrong. And that is probably the teaching Lordes would have learned – Phillips did teach, from the Old Testament, that adulterers should be stoned. (And if he actually would have gone into a polygamous marriage with her, he would not, by OT law, have done wrong.) I reason from OT law here even though I do not follow it, because DP taught it, and am considering the actions of both participants by what he taught, and probably would have taught her.

    “Any time an insecure young woman is cajoled into a sexual relationship by a man – especially a married man, she is being used and taken advantage of. … it happens all the time …That is part of the reason men are called to protect women…”

    Foxes eat chickens all the time. That is why foxes are called to protect the henhouse, and why we teach our chickens to obey foxes.

    “if she had not gone to the media, but instead sought Christian arbitration; and, if her family, her church, and the people in her community all wound up believing her, wouldn’t that be enough?”

    No. People should be judged by their fruit. And everything that is covered shall be revealed. (Luk. 12:2)

    “the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen”

    Is it “the way this is handled” that causes the slander, or “what he did” that causes it. Suppose something like this happened and it was treated in another way with only a few heathen hearing of it, which told it to their friends and the Internet secondhand. Or suppose the exact opposite happened and a Christian leader was totally honorable, and this totally honorable behaviour was leaked to the media and handled this way. I suggest the bad behaviour, not the way the behaviour was handled, is the cause of any blasphemy.
    That is to say, provided there is blasphemy. Right now, I cannot think of one person cursing God. I can think of people cursing Patriarchy or even Christians, but not God.

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  2. “Lydia, yes. I am glad these two women came here because their aggression, contempt, and bad logic make plain what people inside the system have to bear.”

    Yes. This is what friends of mine refer to as the “big fish in a small pond” syndrome. In their own circles these women have “position” and people listen to them. They get special privileges being married to leaders in these movements. However, take them out of the adulation of their pond, and, lo and behold, people have the audacity to question and critique their point of view. They can’t handle it. Out come the claws.

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  3. After reading Stacy’s replies – which are terrifying in their own way – I feel the need to modify my original statement.

    I initially stated that I thought most of the voices of women who were condemning Lourdes were women who were deeply afraid of how this could affect their lives.

    In Stacy’s case, I was very wrong. I see no evidence of reflection, humility, sympathy or even pity for Lourdes from Stacy. I do see a lot of defensiveness, arrogance and condemnation which do not make the list of Christian virtues.

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  4. Lydia said, “This is usually how it goes in that movement and I hope those who are in it take a long look at the above comment. This is what it will be like for you if you ever go off the reservation. These are the tactics used. A vague poisonous gossipy dart meant to “deflect” from the issue at hand. It did not take long for the claws to come out.”

    So true. In this movement, if you bring the truth, or speak about a “problem”, you become “the problem”. This is a sure sign of SPIRITUAL ABUSE. A good read for the “REAL” problem gong in here, is “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”. Once you confront the real problem, (ie in this dialogue, Stacy and Kelly) then YOU become the problem. They are so spiritually blind, that they cannot see their error.

    Stacy’s comment that Julie should decide “who” to allow to comment on her blog, because she sees someone “scary”, is Serious Power/Control Issues 101. That statement, to healthy people, is a huge red flag. In other words, Stacy is declaring herself to be a mental health expert, although she has no training. She apparently can diagnose someone, without even knowing them. Like here, she can know what Lourdes should feel and do, even though she has no expertise in this area- at all! It also proves the comment above that states that Stacy only publishes comments on her blog that are good for her and that she thinks will promote her. She obviously screens her comments on her blog – not posting those that would confront her serious issues.

    If Stacy had been thrown one of those same “vague poisonous gossipy darts”, it would have been determined to be the sin of gossip and if it had come from someone within the “c”hurch, you can pretty well bet, that person would have been brought before the elders, to face their punishment for saying anything about the infamous woman – even if she was at fault. No leveling the playing field when it comes to infamous men and women. Hence her response here.

    Now I shall have to address the whole “leveling the playing field with abuse” issue that appears to exist in Stacy’s comment as well. Is this just a Presbyterian CPC denomination doctrine, that her and her husband started, or do all people believe this? I think what she is saying here, is that if someone is raped, then that someone needs to repent for their part in the rape. Saying that in the context of this situation, is like saying that a 7 year old who has been groomed by a predatory uncle for years, is guilty of some form of sin, when that same uncle finally molests the child. The list Stacy provides would most likely include that the child should have reported it or gotten away from the predator. She may also say that the child loved her uncle, and for some reason, after years of grooming, that would be the child’s fault. She should have known better. Move it up the age scale, and that is what you have here with Lourdes. A man, in a position of power, who grooms his victim for years, indoctrinates her mind in the ways of cultic patriarchy, promises her rose gardens after his wife dies, then waits for her to become of age, so she can be considered an adult and blamed by the Stacy McDonalds of the world, and then molests and sexually abuses her for years, all because he has that kind of power over his victim. This not only happens in these kind of sexual abuse situations, but men in positions of power in “c”hurches, also abuse the sheep and then blame and shame the sheep. While Stacy seems to want to make this into a “his blame/her blame” game and also into an adult woman with an adult man, that is not the case here at all. Any person who has an ounce of psychological sense, can see it clearly. While Stacy tries to spiritualize this mess, there is no Spirit here at all. This is just one lost man, abusing a woman, beginning when she was just a young daughter.

    If this had in fact been one of Stacy’s or Kelly’s daughters, you all know the situation would be much different, than what it is here now. I agree with the comment above, that we are dealing with an “elitist” mindset here.

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  5. @JulieAnne:

    Here we go again – – that kinist subject.

    Isn’t “Kinism” just a Christianese coat of paint over Aryan Master Race White Supremacy?

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  6. “I have enormous sympathy for those who are abused.”

    Gosh you have a strange method of demonstrating that sympathy, why if I didn’t know about your profoundly enormous sympathy, merely based upon your actions here and on Mr. Wilson’s blog, I think I’d assume you had little or no sympathy. I’d even assume you were just piling on and contributing to the abuse of a young lady who was groomed for exploitation by a malignant narcissist from the time she was a child, then subsequently defiled in a most repulsive and vicious way. Thanks so much, Ms Crawford, for clearing that one up.

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  7. @BTDT re a commenting Queen Bee:

    “Check out sometime, on the database of the mentally stable (or not), those who you allow to comment here. I recognize a scary person…”

    Translation: “I can’t win in this environment where I can’t control what you people say or believe, so I’m just going to call you names and insult you. Nanny, nanny, boo, boo.”

    Or: “I am always Right and You are Always WRONG and once you realize I Am Always Right and YOU are Always WRONG and agree with me in everything, we won’t have a problem, Will We?”

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  8. Julie Anne, I posted the following at Doug Wilson’s site yesterday, in response to Angela’s comments, to underscore the fact that since even the state of California acknowledges that some fiduciary (trust-based) relationships are so lopsided, that current clients/patients (and I’ll add congregants) are not only sexually off-limits, but most even remain off-limits, despite their “adult” status.

    Kelly, a quick perusal of California law (Business and professions Code 729) reveals that even the government acknowledges that professional “fiduciary responsibilities” exist which means that the trust inherent in some professional relationships absolutely prohibits any sexual involvement between patient/client and physician/therapist/counselor. Some professional relationships are in fact so lopsided in the trust/authority realm that sexual contact is prohibited or restricted with FORMER patients/clients. An excerpt from this statute:

    Any physician and surgeon, psychotherapist, alcohol and
    drug abuse counselor or any person holding himself or herself out to
    be a physician and surgeon, psychotherapist, or alcohol and drug
    abuse counselor, who engages in an act of sexual intercourse, sodomy,
    oral copulation, or sexual contact with a patient or client, or with
    a former patient or client…is guilty of sexual exploitation.

    So if you’re saying the competence and scope of “pastor” does not rise to that of an alcohol and drug abuse counselor, you have a point. But if you maintain that Douglas Philips did not break the law because his victim was a legal adult, you have maintained that the Church is exempted from a responsibility that secular professionals willingly hold themselves to. I hate it when the “world” rightfully makes the church look really, really bad.

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  9. “I have enormous sympathy for those who are abused.”

    Word-for-word Party Line of abusers and their enablers/courtiers.

    Sociopaths like to ooze Concern and Compassion and Sympathy(TM). Nobody is as Concerned as a sociopath, as Compassionate as a sociopath, as Sympathetic as a sociopath, as Sincere as a sociopath. Until the instant you have outlived your usefulness.

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  10. “Check out sometime, on the database of the mentally stable (or not), those who you allow to comment here. I recognize a scary person…”

    There you go. Knew that one was coming.

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  11. Maybe that person is “scary” to Stacy, because they are telling the truth? In the patriarch’s world, anyone who eventually tells the truth about the abuse they suffered at the hands of their pastor/wife or elder/wife or leadership people, gets labeled, “rebellious” “unbelieving” “non-submissive” “mentally unstable” or “scary”. Just watch, that will probably happen to Lourdes at some point too. It is just another attempt to cover up the truth and make the victim take the blame and shame for the perpetrator’s abuse.

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  12. You know, Patriarchy has had a platform in the Homeschool Movement for the last 2+ decades. I am certain there were many who went to the conferences because they were labeled as Christian and the topic was homeschooling. There were no other options for conferences, a place to connect with families from across your own state, to put your hands on and peruse homeschool curricula, to meet these brave parents who had been homeschooling their own kids before there were safe laws in effect. They were the bold and brave and we got to hear from them. We also got to hear/learn about Patriarchy there. And then the homeschool magazines and homeschool forums also perpetuated the same Patriarchy message.

    Women like Stacy and Kelly somehow got in the public spotlight to continue talking from a platform = whether that platform was at a conference (like Kelly is enroute to today in my own state of WA) or an online platform in the form of a blog, forum, etc. Many of us changed to look more like them, thinking since they were doing the homeschooling (the right way), surely their other ideologies must be right. (That was a mistake on my part – not standing on my own 2 feet and relying on God’s word to guide me, rather than man.)

    Take a look at Steadfast Daughters, a blog where both Stacy and Kelly contribute:

    These are the categories:
    A Biblical Self Image
    Abuse
    Biblical Authority
    Book Reviews
    Grace and Forgiveness
    Legalism
    Parenting
    Quiverfull

    These are the popular article titles:

    All that Quivers is not Told
    Christy’s Review
    Should “She, Obey Him?”
    What is Abuse?
    When All You Have is A Hammer
    A Future and a Hope
    Legalism: Yours, Mine, and Ours
    My Parents are Sinners, Too!

    Their agenda is out there and plain for all to see.

    James and Stacy McDonald have been keynote speakers at the following conferences.

    APHEA – Alaska State Convention
    Christian Heritage – Washington State Convention
    Covenant Presbyterian Church – California Family Camp
    Renewing the Family – New Mexico
    MCHE – Montana State Convention
    NTHEN – North Texas Convention
    NICHE – Iowa State Convention
    MCHE – Missouri State Convention
    INCH – Michigan State Convention
    CHEF-AL – Alabama State Convention
    Mass HOPE – Massachusetts State Convention
    LEAH – New York State Convention
    CHENH – New Hampshire State Convention
    OCHEC – Ontario Province Convention

    You only get to be a Keynote speaker when the ideology of your talk matches up with the ideology of the leaders at the homeschool group. Stacy and James have been highly influential in the homeschool arena for years, having published a popular homeschool magazine.

    Here is Stacy’s blog: Your Sacred Calling. Her current article is her husband’s on Patriarchy. Further down she has an article on having glee when a leader falls. Where did we hear that from? Doug Wilson. He had posted about the Phillips story and linked the glee part to my blog. Are we gleeful here about moral failure? Is that what we do?

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  13. The definition of priest says it all Kelly! No women needs a priest! A man goes directly to God through Jesus and a woman does as well. And KING?

    This statement made me think of RC Sproul JR’s response after his daughter (Darby) just got married. He commented on a wedding photo of the new couple and said “Darby and her lord” sigh.

    I just want to come in here and say…….we go to a FIC church. We have visited several others (SB, TN). We have NOT been to BCA, but we have many many connections there. Deep & close connections. Let me just say here……that NOT all FIC’s are the same. Not all are quiverfull minded and extreme with the modesty (or dresses only). Not all are daughters staying home and no college. Believe it or not, not all are extreme like BCA. BCA IS extreme. There are several copycats (SB, Geoff Botkin in TN) but they still aren’t as extreme as BCA. So please be careful of doing a “broad brushed” assessment of the NCFIC movement. Not all of them have people like Doug…….that sue people at a blink if they don’t obey etc. Not all make you sign a covenant or if you leave the church, they make it impossible to worship anywhere else.

    Although I do not agree with what Kelly C said, I do think we have to be careful of making rash judgments that they are the same as BCA & DP. We have interacted with many of the heavy hitters in the movement and there are some that are trying to be like Doug but many that aren’t.

    Also, about Lourdes. Stacy & Kelly can make their opinions known but they are definitely on the outside circle and I don’t believe they know really how BCA and Doug works with the spiritual abuse. Like you said JA, you could tell by Kelly’s statement that she really doesn’t understand what it means to be under control by your abuser. We have also met and talked to Lourdes & her family. I still don’t know WHY that the Torres family would have given permission for her to live in the DP home but that should have never happened.

    another thing as well………..yes Doug is guilty………but he has told more LIES than anything. He is going to purge himself (saying that it was “mostly emotional and through the internet”)………this is going to be interesting. VERY interesting.

    Oh and another thing (lol), Lourdes DID tell him to stop. MANY times, she told him no (can you say rape?). Doug kept going while he was fulfilling his adult p*rn fantasy………but that’s Doug. Doug has lived in a perpetual state of fantasy with all of these trips, trips to the moon…………..all about Doug. Not about his family, his church, his business OR the interns (with NO supervision)…….it’s been about Doug. A true Narcassist.

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  14. HUG, you said: “Sociopaths like to ooze Concern and Compassion and Sympathy(TM). Nobody is as Concerned as a sociopath, as Compassionate as a sociopath, as Sympathetic as a sociopath, as Sincere as a sociopath. Until the instant you have outlived your usefulness”.
    Isn’t that the truth? Funny how some folks show up, make a drive-by post (or 167 of the same), & then whine about how “scary” we are when we answer them back. But they are pleased to hang out with a bunch of _________[MOD removed words] like DP, and never bat an eye.

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  15. IMB:

    The instability…scary accusation is a very common method of abusers or enablers. I’ve seen it so many times, you come to expect it (see my comment just above). Normally, people don’t react that way, even when pushed to the limits in a debate, they only start suggesting mental instability when given ample evidence, when seeing that the pattern of behavior they’re considering fits within a common pattern of those whom they’ve previously known to be mentally unstable or “scary”. For example, the many who are suggesting Mr. Phillips might be personality disordered are doing so on the basis of ample documented evidence.

    Unless someone is truly irrational, making no sense at all, you just don’t do that, just don’t call them “crazy” or “scary” based on a few posts, even posts that are condemning you personally. But certain types of people do, those who are abusive do it out of a sense of sadism and self-preservation (have experienced that personally when confronting some really abusive church leaders, they do it to defame you, they do it out of pleasure).

    Those who are supremely insecure do it also when confronted with something that truly disturbs them, that nagging voice they’ve tried to suppress, the one telling them they’re wrong and foolish and misguided, they’re putting themselves in harm’s way, those they love as well, the one that’s now echoing through some post on a blog. And you project onto the posters your own discomfiting feelings of insecurity, instability. Just a hunch that this is what we’re getting from Ms McDonald and Ms Crawford.

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  16. Just to comment concerning Stacy’s comment about her diagnosis of someone being mentally unstable.

    Jesus was also thought to be mentally unstable and crazy, was thrown out of the church, was mocked and ridiculed for telling the truth, and was eventually put to death for His claims. I feel right at home. Being persecuted and abused by Pharisees and false teachers in positions of power, for having true faith, is hard, But I rejoice to have been one who has shared in the sufferings of my Savior. He has been great comfort and strength to me and I pray and know that He will be that to Lourdes as well, and to all who write here, who have experienced these same forms of abuse. Spiritual leaders should be able to be trusted. When they cannot be trusted, in God’s Book, they are NOT His spiritual leaders at all, but false teachers/shepherds who have crept in and placed themselves in a position of power. These false teachers never repent for their sin nor own their abuse of the sheep.

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  17. Truth Detector. Thanks for this. I can see now, that is exactly what is going on. I have suffered heinous abuse at the hands of McDonald, but have yet to tell my full story. I think you are right. There is abusiveness there and her response is to label someone “crazy” or “mentally unstable”, so that others will not listen to the victim when they tell the truth.

    I did not know it, but I now know and see that this is very common in domestic abuse as well as church spiritual abuse. The abuser starts a chain of “my spouse (or the congregant) is mentally unstable”, so that others will not believe her claims. The victim has kept silence for decades and when she finally breaks that silence, the abuser has much to fear and the only way to stop her claims from being heard and believed, is to say that she is “crazy”, “mentally ill”, etc. I think that is exactly what McDonald is doing here as well. Thanks for the input.

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  18. JA wrote: “Further down she has an article on having glee when a leader falls. Where did we hear that from? Doug Wilson. He had posted about the Phillips story and linked the glee part to my blog. Are we gleeful here about moral failure? Is that what we do?”

    Exactly. People who spread this codswollop reveal themselves to be lovers of power above all else.

    They do not think enough of those who were damaged to be glad when justice finally begins. They are not relieved that more people will not be damaged. They are not happy that, finally, a wound in the church can be cleaned, and healing can begin so that we all can get on with our work.

    No, they think the *only* Christian emotion is sadness for the fallen leaders. “How awful that these leaders have to be so humiliated! We shouldn’t talk because we are just like them! They should be given utmost privacy to repent. It doesn’t matter that the destructiveness has spilt across denominations and the internet–it’s a personal matter. We must forgive them the minute they send out an odor of possible regret.”

    “Oh no,” they say, “how will these men now make livings for their families?” It doesn’t occur to them that those damaged may have lost their ability to support/maintain families through no fault of their own. They don’t consider that their primary responsibility is to support their damaged brothers/sisters, and help them back on their feet.

    They say, “When can we have the pastors come back? He brings God’s word!” It never even enters their minds to ask, “What do we need to learn from these damaged people who have had to learn terrible lessons in such painful ways?”

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  19. IamMyBeloved’s:

    I thought her “crazy” accusation was simply a lazy method of insulting the other people who posted on this site.

    Using the “crazy” accusation as a power-play against people she has hurt isn’t lazy – it is callous, vindictive, manipulative and sadistic.

    If this is what the leaders of this movement are like, I am deeply afraid for their followers.

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  20. Quite honestly, both Kelly & Stacy McD need to understand what “grooming” is. I highly recommend a book called “Confessions of a pedophile”…….a powerful book on the subject. Unfortunately, the things that abusers say are almost identical. This is once again ANOTHER case associated with Moscow, ID! ANOTHER ONE!

    I was molested as a young teen. A man living under my parent’s roof, paying his rent by helping with the remodeling of our home, in training at Greyfriar’s Seminary to become a pastor , groomed me, sexually abused me, and molested me from the time I was 13 until I was 16 years old. He was 10 years older than me. A true monster; I was made to feel worthless, as though no one but he would ever love me. I was told that if I ever told anyone, it would ruin his life because people simply wouldn’t understand what we shared. I became an expert at lying to my parents. I was forced into sexual acts time and time again that no young girl should ever be subjected to.

    http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2010/07/no-more-tape-over-my-mouth.html

    I think Stacy is getting SO much flack that she’s back peddling and digging herself under that huge hole she has gotten herself into!

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  21. notsurprised: For both Kelly and Stacy to post the victim-blaming comments and thanking Doug Wilson for his article really says it all for those of us who understand systems of abuse. Wilson is connected with 2 cases of sex abuse and wrote the book on marital rape telling people that in the marital bed a man conquers and penetrates and the wife surrenders and accepts. I’m sorry, but really, do we need to say much more than that?

    If they want to align themselves with this kind of trash, allow women to continue to be abused in their own homes because of his words as a church leader, then they will have to answer for their own words. Taunya is right – they are brainwashed into this ideology that has become far more important than real people. Jesus was not like that. He heard about someone in mourning and he went to them. He stopped everything to comfort those who needed comforting. I want to be like Jesus.

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  22. “I just want to come in here and say…….we go to a FIC church. We have visited several others (SB, TN). We have NOT been to BCA, but we have many many connections there. Deep & close connections. Let me just say here……that NOT all FIC’s are the same.”

    I think notsurprised makes a very good point here. I would add that not all Pentecostal, Baptist, Reformed (don’t flame me), Catholic, or (insert denomination) churches are the same. I hope I can pull my thoughts together for this comment.

    I’ve spent the last few days watching some of the safety videos on MInistrySafe dot com. I doubt many people, including myself, are fully aware of just how prevalent abuse is in our churches. I listened to the measures that Greg and his wife outline as necessary to protect, primarily, children. IMO, most authoritarian churches with a central locus of control are never going to implement such measures, because it decentralizes the control factor. For instance, nobody should be exempt from the screening process because they were grandfathered in or because of their “position.” My former cult would never go for such preventative measures. They are automatically a risky institution. You don’t just say. “Abuse happens. Period.” You ask, “What can we do to minimize the risks? When it does occur, what are the proper steps to take?” Why wouldn’t a Christian, or anybody, be willing to do that?

    Some churches are obviously taking proactive measures. Some churches do care. I may or may not agree with all of their theology, but that’s not the point. Do they care enough to protect people? Do they care for people? Or are they simply controlling people? I think Patriarchy leans toward the latter. That makes it a risk. Period. That doesn’t mean every person in a Patriarchal church will experience abuse. It just means there is an increased risk.

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  23. notsurprised – WHOA!!!! Your story is horrific. I’m so sorry to hear of what abuse you went through and then to have your family, church, and court system betray you. I don’t understand why this happens so much. I went back to read the comments and was shocked to read that this happened at Doug Wilson’s church. Would you be okay if I shared your story in a blog article? If so, can you contact me by e-mail in case I have more questions? Your story must be told. This is ridiculous. First the Sitler story of Wilson marrying a pedophile and now this? UNBELIEVABLE!!!

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  24. “I was molested as a young teen.”

    notsurprised, is that your story? Hugs to you. I am so sorry that perv did that to you.

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  25. JA: just to clarify……this was NOT my story. This is ANOTHER story that I found that is linked to the one and only DW…………YES I am hoping that you do another blog/post story about DW…………This poor girl (Natalie Rose) has endured enough and needs our support………I am completely flabbergasted that there’s a pattern here with Doug Wilson (and people still listen to and support the man???? big sigh). Not only that I was struck by one of another comments on the blog:

    “Now I see him once every week or two and though I no longer attend the church in which it all took place, many of the friends I still associate are friends with he and his family. While on facebook today I received an invitation to attend the baptism celebration for his most recent child. Years ago, I received letters from the church after I left telling me I was under church discipline and could no longer take communion there, meanwhile my abuser was welcomed back into the fold with open, loving arms…And people wonder why I left.”

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  26. Regarding Ms McDonald and Ms Crawford, one has to wonder about the mindset of one who blows in here, acts that way, accuses others of instability, crazy, scariness, one who makes so many strawman arguments, uses so much ad hominem, talks about themselves in such glowing terms–their house is a house of laughter and love and all things wonderful, they are “a normal, loving, compassionate person….” Folks, who refers to themselves in that manner? I have never known a Christian, or at least one who I believed to be a Christian, even one under attack, vicious attack, ever refer to themselves in that way.

    I’ve never heard anyone refer to their house in that way. People who have a bit of honesty and self awareness do not refer to themselves in that way, they’re more like “My house? Oh my goodness it’s madness. My kids drive me nuts. And I yell yell yell. But thank God He loves me and them in spite of ourselves.” That’s more like what I would associate with a Christian response. It sure sounds a lot more like what Paul thought of himself in Romans 7.

    Just an indication of what we’re dealing with. The fraud of it all.

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  27. I want to thank Kelly for stopping by. I do not know her, but I think she is feeling somewhat hurt and confused about statements made about her. I don’t sense an aggressive spirit in her as much as a desire to defend her lifestyle and family. I do not agree with her opinions, but don’t feel she wants to disparage Lourdes (unless I missed something!). I think it is a form of self protection, a way to feel immune to the possibility of something similar happening in her family. Stacy, on the other hand seems more harsh in her views. I tried to ask her questions and commented on her site last week. She wouldn’t publish it or respond, whereas JA is gracious enough to allow her to rant over here. Stacy seems to have a take no prisoners approach and limited empathy to victims. Yes Stacy, there is a “victim mentality” in our culture, but that doesn’t lessen the trauma experienced by real victims. You seem to group both together. There seems to be a detachment towards Lourdes’ pain. I understand the pain of adultery, but Lourdes broke no vows. “Cheating is not about who you lie with, but whom you lie to.” I would hesitate to group Kelly and Stacy together. However, Doug is a lying, cheating waste of space and I hope justice is served! 🙂

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  28. Ok, thanks for that clarification, notsurprised. I think I just left a comment there. I better go back and check. I really would like to cover this story and get more details.

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention. So, are we noticing a pattern yet?

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  29. I’m glad Kelly and Stacy spoke up publicly…it allows the many of us quietly following these matters to know to stay far, far away from any place they are speaking or writing and to encourage anyone we know to do the same.

    In what I would read as a bid for prestige and influence within their own tiny and insignificant community, they have totally lost all credibility anywhere else.

    “But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church)” They are talking about themselves.

    In the book of Esther, Hamaan proudly and presumptuously prepared a punishment for another. But it turned out to be his own hanging.

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  30. “I thought her “crazy” accusation was simply a lazy method of insulting the other people who posted on this site.

    Using the “crazy” accusation as a power-play against people she has hurt isn’t lazy – it is callous, vindictive, manipulative and sadistic. ”

    That, it is. It was also done to me without my knowledge in an email to over 100 people. All because I would not go along with a high level power play in a seeker mega church. I would not take sides in the behind the stage stuff so I was not a “team player”. The only reason I knew about the email sent out the day after I left is because ONE person on the list actually sent it to me to ask what happened.

    And it is quite a powerful method of marginalization if done with feigned concern. “She is emotionally unstable right now and we ask you pray for her as we are very concerned”.

    I guess I am naïve because such a tactic would never have occurred to me from those quarters. I really thought such people would fear God more than that!~ I really can understand people who respond to such things wrongly but I will NEVER understand “Christians” who proactively premeditate such evil to poison the well against someone personally.

    It is evil on steroids because it uses Jesus to perpetuate evil. This is not just sinners saved by grace who are sinning folks. It is premeditated evil in the Name of Jesus. Why more people do not find that “scary” I do not know. It is not Christianity.

    Such a tactic was very popular in the USSR. They used it with dissidents and party leaders in power struggles. It is weird to recall reading history and then seeing such tactics done in the Name of Jesus.

    Whoever Stacy was talking about here if you exist, I have your back.

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  31. Pingback: Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs Doug Phillips Lawsuit Informational Resource Page | Spiritual Sounding Board

  32. I’ve just updated the Resource post on the lawsuit with some additional material plus sources on “Bounded Choice” (thanks for your overview comments, Cindy K!). I find the following new quote on “Total Institutions” relevant to the issue in this thread of labeling people with mental disorders.

    * * * * * *

    See also the Wikipedia article on the Asylums book. This quote from Loren Mosher, another critique of the 1950s version of mental asylums as a total institution, is quite telling about some of the critical techniques used to achieve subjugation to the system:

    American psychiatrist Loren Mosher noticed that the psychiatric institution itself gave him master classes in the art of the “total institution”: labeling, unnecessary dependency, the induction and perpetuation of powerlessness, the degradation ceremony, authoritarianism, and the primacy of institutional needs over those of the persons it was ostensibly there to serve-the patients.

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  33. And while I’m at it, if a technique used in “total institutions” is labeling as “mentally ill,” that potentially leads right into “gaslighting,” a more active form of conditioning a person to think they truly are mentally ill. From the Wikipedia article on Gaslighting:

    Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

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  34. Natalie’s story is so horrific, first in the abuse and second in how the church failed her. I note that Doug Wilson sat on the abuser’s side of the courtroom not with Natalie. Boz Tchividjian says that in his career as a prosecutor, NOT ONCE did he and his colleagues ever see a clergyman sitting with the victim and his or her family; it was always with the perpetrator and his.

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  35. Marsha,

    That is exactly why we who have been abused don’t tell. Why go through the abuse all over again when your pastor doesn’t even believe you.

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  36. “Boz Tchividjian says that in his career as a prosecutor, NOT ONCE did he and his colleagues ever see a clergyman sitting with the victim and his or her family; it was always with the perpetrator and his.”

    This. Breaks my heart.

    No wonder this community is undergoing such a housecleaning. God is not mocked.

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  37. Brad/futuristguy: this — “Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim”

    — is exactly what has happened to me, over and over again. There were many other abuses as well, but I think this was these particular abusers’ favorite one. I am very familiar with gaslighting. It also can involve painting a picture for others, with false information or half truths provided by the abusers about the victim, and then making out like the victim is crazy, and spreading that lie around – but the truth is, only a portion of the story is presented by the abusers, and it is a set up a/k/a a witch-hunt, meant to keep the victim quiet, so that no one else will believe the truth. I actually wrote an article about this over at a Cry For Justice blog. Thanks for reminding me, that it is happening all over again – here today.

    One day, I am going to tell my story, because I believe God wants it known.

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  38. One day, I am going to tell my story, because I believe God wants it known.

    It’s very powerful to share your story. If you’d like me to share it here, you know where to find me. In your time, though.

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  39. CindyK:
    Earlier today, I explained the concept of Bounded Choice to a reporter. Those who are not raised in a high demand setting don’t realize all of the internal resources, experience and encouragement that that they take for granted — things that are never afforded to people who grew up with blanket training and other types of high control environments. When all major decisions are governed by parents and are submitted for their approval, young people fail to develop the experience and full ability to discern matters for themselves. Under extreme stress, they tend to freeze like a deer in the headlights — which is actually an adaptive response that helps them survive trauma.

    This makes so much sense! I can see why I was attracted to this lifestyle — I was raised by very controlling parents. Doesn’t matter whether they were believers or not — as a matter of fact, they weren’t — but they were certainly control freaks. Even as an older adult, I have a terrible time making a decision, and am often frozen by doubt or fear of making the wrong choice.

    Thank you for this insight.

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  40. I was 21 before I finally told my parents that I had been molested by a family member. Why? Because, as victim, you take responsibility for what happened to you. And you think, “If I tell, I’ll be responsible for destroying that person’s life.” Of course, that’s a lie. They are responsible for their actions and the consequences. But, it takes a LONG time. A very LONG time to understand that you are not responsible for what happens to that person when you tell. They, and only they, are responsible. But, you might face repercussions and need to be prepared.

    I remember in college my roommate and I had about 20 of us girls packed into our apartment. One of every three of us has either been raped or molested. One third! Think about that as you go through your day. 1 of every 3 or 4 girls you see has been sexually abused.

    One of my friends the abuse was on-going, and I finally got her to go to the police and get a protection order. She did. He violated it, by coming to our apartment while she was staying there for a quiet place to study. Let’s just say the police were not very nice to him when I called. She wouldn’t call.

    We have got to have each other’s back. We have got to help and support the victims. We have to bring this into the light – not only in the church, but in society as a whole. We have to talk about how bad and rotten and evil this is. I think we need to do a better job exposing this problem to EVERYONE. It seems to me society as a whole does not talk about this problem very much either. Maybe they do in public schools, but not when I was in school. It wasn’t until I saw an after-school special at 14 that I began to understand what had happened to me was wrong. And then, I was so confused and ashamed I didn’t tell. And it wasn’t until college that I realized I needed help dealing with it.

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  41. “Boz Tchividjian says that in his career as a prosecutor, NOT ONCE did he and his colleagues ever see a clergyman sitting with the victim and his or her family; it was always with the perpetrator and his.”

    I have an old college friend who happens to be a judge. He is also an atheist. He once asked me how it is the Christians pack the courtrooms over zoning hearings for porn shops but then come to court to give a character witness for a pedophile or child porn perv in their church and even have the nerve to beg for leniency in sentencing……..with the victim sitting right there! It made no sense to him. It makes no sense to me, either.

    It is called “cheap grace”.

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  42. So … if we start piecing all these patterns together, from the individual to relational to organizational to political, maybe this is the picture we start seeing emerge:

    Grooming — intentional psychological conditioning of someone’s thought life, emotions, worldview — which leads toward …

    Victimization — intentional misuse of power dynamics (emotional leverage, physical strength, religious or political position of authority, etc.) in a relationship between unequal “partners” to perpetrate abuse — which leads toward …

    Bounded Choice — a basic psycho-social conditioning that keeps someone constrained to a particular relational and cultural terrain such that even when they no longer need to be tethered to that system, they self-constrain themselves to negate any doubts, objections, or questions — which leads toward …

    Total Institution — an organization based on a closed system which attempts to assert complete control over its inhabitants’ paradigm, including their entire worldview interpretation of reality, self-perception, organizational roles, social relationships, cultural lifestyles, political isolation (or attempts at domination), media access, etc. — which leads toward …

    Authoritarian State — a sociological “cult” (regardless of whether it is a religious group or not) with a psychology of totalism that crosses generations and controls the conditioning of all its citizens from childhood onward, with severe punishments for disobedient behaviors, dissenting views, or any other form of difference that supposedly threatens the “unity” of the movement or state.

    I’m sure there are other kinds of examples and increments in between various steps towards systematic control of people, but maybe this is at least a start for seeing how the pieces of the control puzzle link together.

    As I’ve attempted to suggest in many of my writings on spiritual abuse over the past seven years, part of what makes current situations so insidious is that they represent the intersection of many belief movements, each of which embodies some poisonous patterns, such as: labeling, learned helplessness, elitism, celebrity culture, subjugation, orbiting around a supposedly “inerrant theological system,” control by compliance and/or chaos and/or charisma, etc. This malignant “ministry” has created a toxic cocktail that infects far too many Christians who should be living in freedom, determining for themselves the directions the Spirit is leading them, who can discern the differences between true biblical mandates and human “wisdom” masquerading as truth, etc.

    But I do believe we’re seeing these systems starting to get de-amplified by exposure online. They can no longer so easily hide their deeds in the dark. They cannot as easily lure in naive converts who desire to please God and are tricked into believing that human leaders can dictate to them exactly His plan for them. And there is hope for change. It seems no little deep personal change happens without something to shake us up. And the farther along we are in that chain from Grooming to Authoritarian State, probably the more dramatic and traumatic the shake-up of our world must be to catalyze true transformation.

    I suspect some tsunami-level shockwaves are coming, with the lawsuit of Lourdes Torres-Manteufel versus Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, Inc., and Vision Forum Ministries. With the exposure and corrosion in the alleged Mars Hill Church culture of authoritarian leadership and numerous questionable practices. With the forthcoming criminal trial of Nathan Morales and the implications it has about the alleged culture-of-coverup at Sovereign Grace Ministries. With the substantial documentation involving decades of alleged sexual improprieties and harassment by Bill Gothard.

    I take no glee in the likely destruction of humans-as-idols in such situations and institutions. It will be excruciating for them, their families, the churches and organizations they’ve been supported by, the Church. But can we express gladness that the onset of light and the significant shake-ups that are happening could ultimately bring people from error into truth, and from bondage into freedom?

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  43. “Ok, thanks for that clarification, not surprised. I think I just left a comment there. I better go back and check. I really would like to cover this story and get more details.

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention. So, are we noticing a pattern yet?”

    I will send you some links. Here’s one to get started.

    http://newwest.net/main/article/two_child_molestation_scandals_break_over_moscows_christ_church/

    I am sure you know of others. TWW posted re: Sitler’s wedding in July of 2012, iirc.

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  44. Brad, that sure looks like an article to me. I think we need to make it into a searchable article. There is just too much good information there to be hidden away in a comment. What say you? I can do it on the weekend.

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  45. Gaslighting…poisoning the well.

    Happened to me and spouse also at more than one church; you prove you’re not a team player, you stand up and call someone in power on doing something really awful to another in the name of Jesus, then you find out what people are all about. In one case the pastor set up a special meeting of the elders to tell them about my insanity. At another church the head pastor started spreading such slander about my wife that friends at church would be visibly shaken and turn away when she passed them. In one case when I went to pick up our baby from nursery after the service, the childcare volunteer that week (one of the insiders in the church) instinctively yanked our baby away, as if to protecting her from my “evil influence”, I had to reach out and yank baby away before the worker finally gave way. What could pastor have been saying behind our backs? Very evil stuff.

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  46. I have a page opened right now to collect links. Thanks, Diane. I added it. Now, will someone please donate any extra time they have to me? I need more hours in a day.

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  47. “I was 21 before I finally told my parents that I had been molested by a family member. Why? Because, as victim, you take responsibility for what happened to you.”

    WouldRatherNotSay, Your whole comment is excellent. I just noted this part, because I just heard that 66% of sexual abuse victims won’t even talk about it until they are adults.

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  48. I find it interesting that both Kelly and Stacy were both so angry with the commenters on this blog that they came here ranting. They called those who comment here liars, crazy and even insinuated that those here who claim Christ are not actually Christians. Then one of them chastised us all for not caring enough about the family of Doug and the hardships they have been through, how odd. The person who has inflicted the hardship on Doug’s family is Doug and interestingly enough neither of these ladies have publicly expressed a fraction of the anger they displayed toward us yesterday toward him. Neither of them have publicly questioned his salvation as they did ours.

    If Stacy was truly concerned about Doug’s family maybe she should publicly call him out for choosing to support his family on a house of cards built with lies, it has fallen and they are suffering and it’s all his fault. Had he found an honest way to make a living they would still have their livelihood. So Doug Philips bases his life on lies and abuse and Stacy and Kelly issue half-hearted “he was wrong” responses. We question them on Lourdes and they come out in angry rants filled with name calling and shaming. WOW!!! That is bizarre cult-like behavior, and neither of them see anything strange about it. They are so brainwashed that they don’t even question the fact that they are more angry at us for criticizing them then they are at Doug for all he has done over the course of at least 20 years. It’s sick!

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  49. I just noted this part, because I just heard that 66% of sexual abuse victims won’t even talk about it until they are adults.

    This is why we need to remove statute of limitations laws in all States.

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  50. Julie Anne — April 23, 2014 @ 10:43 AM — “Brad, that sure looks like an article to me. I think we need to make it into a searchable article. There is just too much good information there to be hidden away in a comment. What say you? I can do it on the weekend.”

    Okay, let’s be in touch. Actually, this is a new section to what I’ve already writing as the introduction to curriculum section on how to create a safe working environment for collaborating on the common good, and how NOT to allow toxic systems to get implanted or flourish. So I should have that article expanded by the weekend and we can see if it’s appropriate for here …

    P.S. Could you also ask Cindy K to do a post/repost on her stuff about Bounded Choice and the work of Janja Lalich? The course of conversations across a wide range of social media seems to be headed toward the specific patterns and techniques used to entice people into totalistic systems, condition them to stay there, and prevent them from leaving there. So … perhaps some focus posts on those will help survivors and those who care about them in understanding why it’s so hard to recognize the entrapment that goes on, and so hard to say “no” when you’ve been in a system like this so deeply for so long …

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  51. one thing that has been eating at me ALL day long is when Stacy McD (on DW blog), in her self- righteous, smug attitude says (in regards to the DP case): “if only they were Reformed Presbyterian, than this wouldn’t be like this (chaos)”. I am absolutely FLOORED at the self righteousness RP to think that either they could handle it better or that these types of things do not happen in the RP denomination. These links and articles concerning Moscow, ID (THE SAME DENOMINATION AS STACY & KELLY) are where a Reformed Presbyterian not only harbored not one but TWO pedophiles and abusers but in the case of Jamin Wight, also had ostracized his victim and excommunicated her………..SERIOUSLY???? (as Stacey MCD would say).

    Can you say “Christians shooting their wounded?” I see this happening with Lourdes too…….unfortunately.

    SO let me get this straight. They claim that Lourdes is not a victim and that she should have spoken up earlier and because she didn’t then she’s guilty, BUT you have TWO known se*ual abuse pedophiles and they are encouraged to marry women in their church and are given leniency????????

    Also, from http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/18/the-real-doug-wilson-encouraged-presided-over-the-marriage-of-serial-pedophile/ DW is quoted as “covering up sins for a living” ugh SERIOUSLY???? right Stacy McD??

    just absolutely sick. Why this man has a cult following like he does I will never know. We have had stark differing issues with him theologically and the sheer fact that he’s so arrogant, but this makes me want to throw up. I mean throw up.

    I am also hearing rumors through FJ that Nancy Grace picked this up on her show in the last few days. SO it is getting National airtime………NOT enough but it’s getting exposure!

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  52. “This is why we need to remove statute of limitations laws in all States.”

    They could do it, too. There’s no reason why this can’t be treated the same way as murder and extend the statute, especially considering it’s the type of thing that just doesn’t come out for decades many times.

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  53. Julie Anne … P.S. And maybe Marsha the Sociologist who has offered some immensely helpful commentary along the way. And there are others. Maybe a series like a sort of roving conference to help in identification of symptoms and sources and healing-oriented solutions.

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  54. Taunya,

    The last people to see they are in a cult are those who get fame and money from the cult whether it is speaking at conferences, being a minister, selling books, etc. They have a vested interest in perpetuating the cult. Everything then hinges around saving and building the “brand” and “image”.

    Their former hero, Doug Phillips, trashed the foundational tenant of Patriarchy which is the premise that “men protect women”. Poor Kelly is almost losing her mind trying to hold on to that one. I mean, how much easier to explain away financial scandal, the lawsuits, etc in Doug’s past. But how do you hold on to “created order with men protecting women as their authority” when your most famous Patriarchal celeb was grooming a young girl to sexually objectify that he was to “protect” as her “authority”? Even promising to marry her when his wife “dies young”. (I agree with an earlier commenter that DP was most likely viewing this all through the OT lens of Polygamy which unfortunately for him, is illegal. There is a lot of Mormonistic influence in Patriarchy. We have seen it on CBMW)

    All they can say is “he was wrong and that is not Patriarchy” and try to deflect attention onto questioning the victims role in it. Or suggest someone here is mentally ill which in Stacey’s world means all comments here are moot. That is the patriarchal bubble speaking. It does not work so well outside the bubble.

    But it really IS patriarchy because it is the PERFECT environment for grooming and objectifying women. They even have God as a façade to perpetuate evil that the secular Neanderthal/predators don’t have. Few have mentioned how obligated Lourdes must have felt when DP took her family in. The perfect grooming scenario.

    BTW: Doug Wilson reminds me of Marlon Brando’s character in the film, Apocalypse Now, for some reason. Weird.

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  55. (Technical note: I don’t know if it’s my browser (Firefox) or display driver or what, but when I read on this blog there are heavy, distracting, seemingly randomly placed horizontal blue lines (same as the background color to either side of the text block) that cover up some of the words, making reading difficult. Just thought I’d mention it. Thanks for the discussion.)

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  56. “It appears that all the comments on Doug Wilson blog have disappeared, unless mu computer is acting crazy. What’s up with that I wonder?”

    My computer has whatever your computer has. No comments. What was DW’s smug statement about “Comments are moderated thusly” blah, blah, blah?

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  57. It appears that all the comments on Doug Wilson blog have disappeared, unless mu computer is acting crazy. What’s up with that I wonder?

    http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/vice-victims-and-vision-forum.html#comments

    You’re right. It says “191 comments” or something like that, but displays none of them.

    “Birds of a feather”…………..kind of like Dougie boy (Phillips) hiding HIS comments on his fb regarding the lawsuit………..cut of the same mold……..I tell ya!

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  58. Julie Anne, I am here to THANK YOU for the judicious edit of a post of mine.
    I was going to send you a private message, but I decided to come right out & admit that I lose my temper when I hear that sort of blathering on by folks who will “pass by on the other side” rather than show any human kindness.

    God bless all here. (That includes the folks who raise my blood pressure. At least, I am trying to bless them, too. It’s not going real well, but I’m trying……..).

    JA note: no problem – I get it. When I get fuming, I call people and let them hear an earful.

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  59. Brad/futurist guy,

    Could you also ask Cindy K to do a post/repost on her stuff about Bounded Choice and the work of Janja Lalich?

    I have been working on a post for a week, but because of my own experiences, I keep finding myself turning a blog post into a journal entry.

    I was sexually abused as a young child while bereaved over two deaths of close family friends. I made a choice at age 9, for a host of complicated reasons, to keep my mouth shut about the matter until after the death of my abuser. Though I have largely desensitized to the experience, upon reading Lourdes/Gibbs petition to the Bexar County Court (a courthouse I’ve visited many times while living there), seeing the matters in pixel/print opened up a new level of consideration of my own experience that I’d not explored before. I could not have done what Lourdes has had the courage to do.

    It was expressly for young women exactly like her that I publicly challenged patriarchy — Phillips in particular. It is also why I helped to see Hillary McFarland’s book, Quivering Daughters, come to press to expose some of the hidden problems of the ugly underbelly of the Quiverfull/Patriarchy system. And believe me — we did not print the more sensational, corroborated, and well documented personal accounts that could have been included in the book. Sorting through that material was so difficult and personal, that’s why we procured an editor — a theonomist who had compassion and expert knowledge about the issue.

    Needless to say, I’m developing a post that SSB is welcome to host that I hope will be healing for many. Perhaps you could help me edit it since I keep getting stuck in my own personal junk? The process has been slow as I write and find myself sorting through residual baggage that I didn’t know was there — the idea of what perhaps should have been done in my own case but was actually a bounded choice — like the one Lourdes faced.

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  60. Hi Cindy K … yes, I can find time to fit in editing your piece, whether it ends up on SSB or not. Have Julie Anne connect us and we can figure things out from there. And thanks again for your many contributions to the comment threads here!

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  61. “The process has been slow as I write and find myself sorting through residual baggage that I didn’t know was there — the idea of what perhaps should have been done in my own case but was actually a bounded choice — like the one Lourdes faced.”

    I’m so sorry, Cindy. Lourdes struggle seems to be affecting people deeply. I wish you the best.

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  62. Brad, thanks for thinking of me. Would be happy to help if I can.

    On another note, I have to stop reading the Wilson thread; my blood pressure is going sky high. Someone mentioned Wilson’s role in Natalie’s case and he said the facts were wrong but he can’t explain further because of pastoral confidences. He was Natalie’s pastor too but see how he uses sly hints to discredit her? Well, you know what? If he did explain, I wouldn’t believe him because his public actions show that he doesn’t care about victims and his writing shows that his thinking about sex and abuse is distorted.

    In what world is it okay for a 24 year old man to have sexual contact with a 14 year old? Not mine. Natalie’s abuser was convicted and sentenced, albeit too lightly. That is all I need to know.

    Oh and here’s some hypocrisy for you. The judge said that, in mitigation, the 24 year old was immature, having been sheltered by homeschooling. Apparently that was fine with Wilson. A 23 year old Lourdes was mature enough to know better than to allow herself to be abused, however.

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  63. Marsha said: Oh and here’s some hypocrisy for you. The judge said that, in mitigation, the 24 year old was immature, having been sheltered by homeschooling. Apparently that was fine with Wilson. A 23 year old Lourdes was mature enough to know better than to allow herself to be abused, however.

    That’s EXACTLY what I was trying to point out earlier………when the Queen Bees came along. It also puts a whole new spin on it when you see how HYPER-patriarchy views the difference between men, women & their roles, especially in extreme circles.

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  64. WouldRatherNotSay,
    I appreciate you mentioning an after school special. I was well into adulthood when I watched one that was so much like my date rape saga. Why did it take the ‘secular’ media world to teach me more what Jesus is like. What kept me in such silent chains was that I did not see myself as a victim because of all this Christianese condemn the victim lingo and having a victim mentality is wrong talk. It wasn’t until I could actually go through the agonizing awakening of the fact that I really was a victim, and that I did not have as much control over the situation that I was programmed to believe and had failed that I could start to heal. Admitting that we have been victimized is humiliating. We want to think that we could have stopped it if we really wanted to. No one likes to admit weakness. What Kelly and Stacy say is actually backwards to the reality of why victims don’t speak earlier. I even remember my own first thoughts of minimizing my experience while I was watching the after school special and came to realize how cruel I was then being to minimize the victim in the story. If I minimize her I minimize me, thinking it will cause less pain, but in reality it’s like minimizing a deep physical wound. That after school special was stinging medicine.
    You know, even IF Lourdes had run and told after the first advance from her perp, that alone would still be scarring. I know, because I am also from ‘almost’ horrific ordeals like that as a teenager also where I was ‘saved’ in the nick of time, but I still feel violation when I think about those. My dad had a prison ministry and trusted ex-cons who had accepted Jesus and he would invite them into our home, sometimes to live for a while. That was not a good idea.

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  65. Stacy still has ignored my questions/comments and posted a new article by her husband!!! What will he say that she hasn’t said? They think men are to protect women, but it has been men who have victimized young women. My head is spinning!

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  66. Zooey111. “God bless all here”
    I think God has a sense of humor. Yesterday at women’s Bible Study I had been discussing with a leader about how to handle a situation with another leader who had been extremely rude to a newcomer (story was told to me at my hair salon). I told my leader friend the first name of this other leader and that I did not know who she was. My friend immediately said Oh yes we have had problems before like that and she has had trouble with her for four years and this needs to be addressed. The humorous part is within seconds of this discussion, our main leader (pastor’s wife) was reaching into the name basket to pull out a name for a door prize, she stops, walks over to my table and holds the basket for my friend to pick the name out and guess whose name she picked? Yup, the rude leader’s name. My friend said, that’s not the name I would have chosen. But I said but we bless our enemies. So, thank you for the reminder today because I was the one not feeling it and now I have some blessing feelings for Kelly and Stacy.

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  67. “But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar.

    Oh my good gosh. As others have noticed, how clueless is this?

    I work for a big corporation. We employees take mandatory training in preventing / reporting sexual harassment every single year. You bet your sweet life that what Phillips did to Lourdes would be considered sexual assault — not simply harassment — if it happened at any corporation, especially at a publicly owned one. It would not be tolerated for one nano-second — not because big corporations are so godly (yeah, right), but simply because they are scared witless of legal liability. Duhhh!

    Re some of the other victim-blaming stuff coming from Wilson, Stacy, and Kelly: Words fail me. My jaw’s on the floor. Seriously.

    BTW, Headless Unicorn Guy made a really astute observation about the “caring,” “compassionate” narcissist. Oh my gosh. I saw that dynamic at work in an abusive situation with a highly controlling boss. The “compassion” is as phony as a three-dollar bill: When the oh-so-concerned person wants something from you, s/he turns around and lays on the unrealistic, impossible demands, without the slightest hesitation or compunction.

    And yes, abusive bosses — like other abusers — target the most sincerely conscientious, eager-to-please people. They seem to know by instinct who is radically vulnerable and easily manipulated and who isn’t. It’s amazing how that works!

    Well, my lunch break’s over; gotta get back to work. Fascinating thread, y’all!

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  68. BTDT,

    I’m doing very well, but I’m having trouble writing and staying on target.

    I really didn’t get through all of the personal baggage until I found a good therapist eight years ago. We dug through the muck. What has resurfaced in the past year has been the idea of what should have been done ideally. Over the summer, when talking to Cathy Harris about some of her history, I asked her about what the likelihood was that my abuser had done this to others. From my own reading, it is likely that he did, but I don’t know that I’m unbiased enough to even think about it much. She has a masters in forensic nursing from U of Penn and worked for the FBI’s crimes against children unit. She honestly told me that it was more likely than not that the man had abused other girls. It was a consideration that I’d not been able to really think about before — in light of the other heaviness of the entire experience and what it has done within my family and my own life and health.

    Now, a few months after having that sobering conversation with Cathy, I read Lourdes’ petition — with all of the specifics. It started me thinking about what my own petition should have read, had there been one if I’d believed that I would have found support from my family. It would have devastated us further, and I don’t believe we functioned that well to begin with. I now have to live with the idea that my silence likely put others at risk. I don’t fault myself for any of it for I did what I did with the best of intentions and even that took a heavy toll on my life. But there is a desire for what should have ideally happened in my own case, and I have to live graciously with that. It is just sad from every angle, however. I found myself grieving the loss of what might have been or should have been — yet again. That’s slowed me down in a way that I didn’t anticipate.

    What I have an opportunity to do now is help support those who might find themselves in a similar situation, and I’m well prepared to do that at this point.

    God has been very good to me through the process, and I’ve been blessed to have a wonderful counselor. A music major graduate from Moody in the 60s, she returned to school after raising her kids. I was connected with her by the director of a Christian (clinical) counseling group because of her experience working with traumatized women and children. I think that it makes for a tremendous testimony of healing, for I was quite sick with PTSD, and it wasn’t for lack of trying to find help in the Church or through Biblical means. I’ve gone on 30 day fasts and pilgrimages and chased “every spout where the glory comes out” to no avail of true healing. But I found tremendous help with the counselor who helped me find true, lasting health. I still have plenty to work on, for I still carry the long term effects of dysfunction and still have unique struggles like most people do. But I am not debilitated and in a constant state of anxious torment, weeping at every altar call for 40 years, begging for God’s deliverance and lasting change. It came to me through clinical help.

    A blessing that I didn’t seek when I moved from Michigan a year ago came in two separate blessings from this counselor — ones I didn’t even hope for or seek from her which make them all the more precious. Twice, during our last two sessions at about this time last year, she told me that she believed that I was ready for anything I wanted to undertake in life because of the tremendous healing I’ve experienced and manifested. That includes working in mental health which she thought was an excellent choice for me, living out 2 Corinthians 1 by offering to others the comfort that I’d received myself through those who offered themselves to the Great Physician to carry out His work. I can’t think of a better ending to the story and could ask for nothing better.

    Soli Deo gloria!

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  69. oy and oy……….Doug Wilson is back up…….his comments are back up and he’s up with a new VF article……….sigh

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  70. Cindy, I have no doubt that you will succeed at anything you decide to do. I just want to say that you are already a tremendous blessing to many people.

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  71. Awwww Cindy K, your last post was like nice cold water to my thirsty soul. Most of my family and friends can’t understand why I spend so much time online, but do they want to talk about this stuff? The internet has been such a blessing for connecting us all. And thanks again JA for hosting.

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  72. Patti and Zooey,

    You’ve brought up a tremendous point about blessing.

    I like to think of this analogy when talking about those who have been in high demand, spiritually abusive environments. When you are in those worlds, they ladle poison down your throat. You marinate in perfectionism and the environment that you are elite, and leaders are among the most elite who are protected. You have to suppress any conscience of your own in order to meld with the group and bury it to remain a part of it. You have to parrot their rhetoric and dogma to survive, or they throw you and your eternal soul away.

    Consider that when you are filled with this poison for so long, there is little else that you can offer anyone. What generally happens when a person eats rotten meat or drinks a poison? They vomit violently and defecate profusely, and getting rid of it is an ugly process. Some have a lot of discomfort immediately. Others are like Typhoid Marys who never get that notably ill themselves but manage to transmit the trouble to others. Bitter and sweet water don’t come from the same source either.

    So when there is pushback in response to challenging ideas — from either a devoted leader in a high demand group or when someone is starting to process their own high demand discomfort and are on their way out — it’s a sign that the message has been effective. We’re not wrestling against flesh and blood (or Typhoid). It’s a war against ideas and torment. Taunya has been a trooper in going through this process as she’s transitioned out of her bondage, and that happens in stages for most people as it has for her. She honored her doubts as God’s precious gift of discernment to her, but the process of getting out is hard and painful.

    I’m definitely not a any fan of Nietzsche, but I like his statement about looking into the abyss and finding that the abyss looks back into you. (I think it’s more the light of truth and holiness looking into a person — a process of fear and trembling.) That gets ugly and messy. When I get caught in the emotion of that process, I remember to have compassion, for this is really a positive sign. It means our salt still has great savor — just as it should. It’s doing what you would expect that salt to do. Pure salt burns flesh. But that’s what we Christians are supposed to be doing every day.

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  73. I am so upset by all of this patriarchy stuff. It brings back a tsunami of repressed memories that had been buried for 52 years, until I finally told my story a few months ago. I can only label it as a form of patriarchy because of the attitudes of my grandmother, who raised me, and how she ran her home. Males were everything, and could do no wrong. Females existed to serve males and to be silent. Everything was my fault since I was only a female. I bet the “Queen Bees” would also say it was my own fault when my older brother woke me up from a nap and molested me when I was only 4 years old. I must have asked for it, huh? I suppose I should have repented. After all, my grandmother blamed it on me and beat the daylights out of me for letting my brother do those things to me. That’s when the self-harm and self-mutilation began. I must be worthless. I’m only a female. Expendable.

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  74. Goodness! Missing words, verb tense changes, and some subject verb disagreement in that last comment. Oy! I think the point comes across, though. 😉

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  75. I don’t know how anyone can bring up their abuse in court or to their abuser. I can only mention it here because I am anonymous and I know that noone in my family will see it. You guys are extremely brave.

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  76. A patriarchy queen bee equates feet that wander far from home (the prostitute in Proverbs) with the story of Dinah and her rape. It is why she will not allow her older daughters to be unsupervised. Can’t be without that male covering. And a queen bee once looked into sending a daughter to Hephzibah House. The proprietors there taught that molested children did have flawed and impure souls that solicited sexual abuse. Patti Williams claimed that she knew that she could sexually entice men at age five. Ron Williams preached often about the soul of the strange woman (the KJV language for prostitute as transliterated from Hebrew in Proverbs). Little molested girls were “strange women” who were the first cause in the chain of events that resulted in their own abuse. They are like Dinah who really must have wanted to be raped all along. Bill Gothard preaches his version of this which he calls the “power of crying out.”

    I don’t think that patriarchy will turn those ideas over because of Phillips’ scandal. The fault always falls to “strumpet-child”. Some whores are 4 years old, and some are 21. This is the mentality we’re talking about. And spiritual abuse is their norm — God’s highest and best for the Body of Christ.

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  77. waitingforthetrumpet2,

    Oh, no your not worthless. I relate so much to your story. I am the youngest of 12 children and I too was molested by my oldest brother when I was three and I was molested by other brother as well, it was a family curse. I never told until in my early twenties. I developed an eating disorder trying to deal with the anguish of the abuse and nearly killed myself in the meantime. My mother never believed me until she heard it straight from the horses mouth (my brothers mouth) and it was wonderful for me because I no longer put the blame on me.

    Stacy and kelli or anyone else can say what they want but it does not make it so….You stick with us, we got your back.

    we are here to encourage you my friend……hugs!

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  78. The yoke of Jesus is easy and His burden is light. We find rest for our souls in Him. Patriarchy has venom, perfectionism, image consciousness, blame, shame, and salvation by works. It is condemnation, and there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

    It’s a free country, and people can choose to follow a religion of salvation by works through piety if they want to do so. I just wish that they would stop giving the rest of us a bad name. I readily admit that I don’t have what it takes to measure up in such a system.

    I’d rather have the still waters and green pastures of the Good Shepherd who forsakes the 99 to go after the lost lamb. He rejoices in recovering them and doesn’t scold them for wandering off. We wounded bring out the best in Him. He is strong and remarkable when we are weak. His eyes look to and fro over the earth, seeking for one to whom He can show Himself strong. We wounded lambs get to be the beneficiaries of that love and power.

    Waiting for the trumpet is worth the whole world to Him — a Savior who knows intimately how she feels and laid down His own life to give her wholeness. He does that for all of us.

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  79. When I was in middle school, my parents and I figured out that my band director was trying to groom me for some sort of abuse. When we spoke up and demanded that he be fired immediately, the entire island was in an uproar. “He’s done this for years… your daughter is not that special…If I tell my story from 25 years ago I will be fired… He’s close to retirement, let him finish it out… no crime happened so what’s the big deal.” That is only the tip of the iceberg. He would not have been fired had my parents not threatened to call every single major new station in the state (and they had the contacts to do so). The following year we learned that he had been hired by a school 30 miles away and was up to his old tricks again. I hope and pray that he never advanced beyond grooming tactics. Every time a woman or girl speaks up, it is like climbing Mount Everest. She has to overcome so many detractors and obstacles to get to the top of the mountain to just share her story and yet there will still be many people who won’t believe her without physical evidence. My heart breaks for all of you who have shared bits and pieces of your abuse here on this blog. Please don’t let the mean girls or queen bees knock you off the mountain top. You are loved and worthy of love no matter what has happened to you. May this blog always continue to be a place of refuge and love for victims in all walks of life.

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  80. I think someone here in this thread posted WWJD/did and what would he say/said.

    My answer:
    I know what he did not do.
    He did not assault a woman when she let down her hair and wiped his feet.
    He did not assault a woman when she sat listening at his feet.
    He did not assault a woman with a reputation in town even though alone with her.
    He did not assault children even though he beckoned them to himself.

    What would Jesus say/said?
    He said and would still say that it would be better for a millstone to be tied around an spiritual abuser’s neck and be tossed into the sea than to have offended one of the little ones.

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  81. I guess I still need help. All the other counselors did was slap labels on me and others said basically to move on and get over it. PTSD, Adjustment Disorder, Depression, Anxiety, etc. Labels. Not a cure. So I’M repeat in cycles of memories, depression, repression and it never ends.

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  82. And Cindy K, please don’t be too harsh with me on my grammar. I can change if I want to but don’t wanna.

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  83. My emotions get moving faster than my ability to process them well enough to get them out in words and then typed correctly.

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  84. I think we need to make something clear about Phillips here.

    He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.

    His pattern of deceit and heresy are more than enough to believe Lourdes over Doug. More than enough.

    According to the Bible, this man should be treated as an unbeliever. We need to quit pretending that Doug Phillips is our fallen brother when he is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is a predator, a false teacher and a heathen. I would be very wary of receiving instruction from women like Stacy and Kelly, women who seem to think that Doug Phillips just needs Christian love and prayer, when Doug Phillips was clearly never an actual Christian in the first place.

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  85. “I think someone here in this thread posted WWJD/did and what would he say/said”

    Yes, that was Joel Frederick. I have no idea what he was getting at. Was he in favor of those posting on this board and his jaw dropping at the mentality of Ms Crawford and Ms McDonald? Or was his jaw dropping at those on this forum who questioned their framing of the debate and were blaming them for being insensitive and ignorant? I do not know.

    I do know, however, that Jesus gave us a pretty fair idea of what He would do when he talked about one who harms those on the bottom, the “little ones” (and you’d have to think that maybe, just maybe, a 15 year old immigrant nanny who gets thrown into a highly patriarchal church system and household, both run by a serial abuser, who gets seduced by said abuser when she’s not much older than his children and has the things done to her that are described in the lawsuit, just might qualify as a “little one”).

    Well Joel Frederick, be you friend or foe, I think Jesus told us what He’d do, we have some pretty good evidence He’d suggest to that person that they drown themselves. In light of that, I doubt He’d come down too hard on those who come to the defense of the ones that person harmed. Just an opinion for you.

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  86. Sorry, Pattij553, I just now read your whole response, and I said almost exactly the same thing you did, but you said it first and it looks like you said it better.

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  87. “I suspect some tsunami-level shockwaves are coming, with the lawsuit of Lourdes Torres-Manteufel versus Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, Inc., and Vision Forum Ministries…..

    @Brad…I hope so. For years, I have warned people about this subculture within the homeschooling movement and in my church (Gothardism and later DP/VF). Am I gloating? No, I feel “vindicated.” There. I said it.

    Lourdes, you go girl. Take him to the cleaners.

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  88. “I’d rather have the still waters and green pastures of the Good Shepherd who forsakes the 99 to go after the lost lamb. He rejoices in recovering them and doesn’t scold them for wandering off. We wounded bring out the best in Him. He is strong and remarkable when we are weak. His eyes look to and fro over the earth, seeking for one to whom He can show Himself strong. We wounded lambs get to be the beneficiaries of that love and power.”

    This brought tears to me, too.

    You know, this is why I recommend those who have been abused by “Christians” or not listened to or believed by “Christians”— to only read the Gospels for 3 years. Jesus is NOTHING like these people. NOTHING.

    And they twist Paul into the perfect Pharisee

    I love how Patrice refers to it as sitting down on the park bench of her mind with God.

    If you are wrestling with Who He is. Tell Him.
    If you are angry , tell Him.
    If you are scared, tell Him

    Why not? He already knows.

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  89. Cindy K I know that you meant yourself but since I think your posts are perfect I went into comparison mode. Thanks though.

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  90. “He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.”

    Bingo

    Hebrews 10:
    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    1 John 3
    4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

    It is about consistent deliberate sin. A lifestyle. That is what walking in the light/darkness is referring to in 1 John.

    I really do believe that so much of Christendom has not been taught correctly about “sin”. It is not a sinless perfection OR totally evil dichotomy. We are confused because so many try to act like “sinning” is normal for Christians. And they tend to lump sin into one big category. Torres has not repented + Doug sinned = Both are sinners. There is little common sense when it comes to this topic because the subject of sin is a great manipulation technique by the gurus. It is why SGM told victims of child molestation they are sinners, too, just like the molester so forgive immediately. This is moral chaos. Even the Athiests see a huge problem with this. But not Christians?

    Stacy: THAT—is “chaos”.

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  91. I’m posting this comment here from Taunya again in case you missed it the first time around. I want it double-matted and framed on my comment wall, thank you very much.

    I find it interesting that both Kelly and Stacy were both so angry with the commenters on this blog that they came here ranting. They called those who comment here liars, crazy and even insinuated that those here who claim Christ are not actually Christians. Then one of them chastised us all for not caring enough about the family of Doug and the hardships they have been through, how odd. The person who has inflicted the hardship on Doug’s family is Doug and interestingly enough neither of these ladies have publicly expressed a fraction of the anger they displayed toward us yesterday toward him. Neither of them have publicly questioned his salvation as they did ours.

    If Stacy was truly concerned about Doug’s family maybe she should publicly call him out for choosing to support his family on a house of cards built with lies, it has fallen and they are suffering and it’s all his fault. Had he found an honest way to make a living they would still have their livelihood. So Doug Philips bases his life on lies and abuse and Stacy and Kelly issue half-hearted “he was wrong” responses. We question them on Lourdes and they come out in angry rants filled with name calling and shaming. WOW!!! That is bizarre cult-like behavior, and neither of them see anything strange about it. They are so brainwashed that they don’t even question the fact that they are more angry at us for criticizing them then they are at Doug for all he has done over the course of at least 20 years. It’s sick!

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  92. FYI Stacy McDonald is spelled without the “E” in Stacy. I’ve been trying to fix all of those and it’s not because I’m bored and have nothing better to do, but many people use the “find” feature when looking up key words in posts/comments. Since the article is about Stacy and Kelly, it would be helpful in that regard. Thanks much!

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  93. TruthDetector, Oh but yours would get a better writing 101 grade, sorry Cindy K, I don’t mean to needle you, I’m picking on myself, really.

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  94. Sorry, Pattij553, I just now read your whole response, and I said almost exactly the same thing you did, but you said it first and it looks like you said it better.

    That I love your voice, Truthdetector. When someone echoes someone else, it’s helpful to the overall group conversation. It also makes me think there are many more lurkers who are saying, “yea, what she said!.”

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  95. My heart breaks for all of you who have shared bits and pieces of your abuse here on this blog. Please don’t let the mean girls or queen bees knock you off the mountain top. You are loved and worthy of love no matter what has happened to you. May this blog always continue to be a place of refuge and love for victims in all walks of life.

    Amen, Mandy! Your parents sound great, btw!

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  96. I don’t know how anyone can bring up their abuse in court or to their abuser. I can only mention it here because I am anonymous and I know that noone in my family will see it. You guys are extremely brave.

    Abuse is so complicated. First to have something done TO YOU, and then you have to come to the point of realizing that it wasn’t your fault. If you get to that point, then to make the choice of to tell or not to tell. There are so many hurdles that abuse survivors have to deal with. I’m glad you are commenting your story, even in your limited capacity here, loveoneanother. One baby step at a time and the nice thing is that YOU get make those decisions now.

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  97. Count me among the 66%. I was 11. Male babysitter was the perp. I did not tell.

    OnlyEleven – You did now. I’m very sorry to hear what you’ve gone through. You have a safe place here.

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  98. My two cents….
    Didn’t her brother work for duggie ? and perhaps her father ? Do her parents speak fluent english? If not, then perhaps they were misled in their beliefs. Her family lives in a mobile home (nothing wrong with that). duggie pretended to be nice to the family. My understanding of a molester/perpetrator situation is that fear and threats and guilt placed on the victim are a definite factor. ALSO…. at that time in her life, her idea of love was, in my view, not truly love at all. AND after reading what has happened to others who tried to deal with evil in this *church* especially women, I would imagine the thought of asking for help from the BCA *elders* to be quite intimidating. Somewhere I read where duggie would go after people who dared to leave BCA without his permission, attempting to ruin them in their new church and business endeavors…even if they moved out of state!

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  99. I am among the silent 66%. Male babysitter, fellow church family, when I was around 11. I did not tell until I was in my 30s. Have never told father my father, probably never will.

    Grew up in Plymouth Brethren chapels, and grew up to be a judgmental legalist.

    Oh, and Stacy? I watched with great interest to see how you would engage with others in this thread. Oh that’s right, you didn’t come here to engage. Your last comment virtually shoved me off the fence. You are right about one thing though…I am nearly 56 years old and I am still SO. SCREWED. UP.

    I totally agree with the statute of limitations never expiring for sexual assault. The thing that haunts me the most about not telling is knowing that I probably was not his only victim. How many more? Did THEY tell? Did he try is with his sisters? Did he do it to his daughters? He still goes to church there! Does he still do it?

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  100. More thoughts..
    WHO was it that went on the secular TV news with this story!?! duggie and mrs duggie ! Not Mrs. M. !
    Beall has been ostracized from her parents for years (honor your father and mother?) and her only social contacts are duggites!! …because of duggie ! She has nowhere to go and I feel that duggie would threaten her with the old… you even THINK about divorce then you will never see your children again and you will be ruined for life cuz after all… I did not *know* her (barf).

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  101. Count my close family members among the 66%: my mother, wife, sister. So given what I’ve seen those I love go through, and the ways in which it has affected their innocent lives, I’m not too inclined to give abusers the benefit of the doubt, I’m more in line with pattij553, wondering when and where they’ll go find a millstone–arguably the strongest words Jesus ever spoke.

    By the way, I just got shockingly hit with something right down the alley of this thread. My college freshman teenage daughter, who is a Strong and Intimidating Woman in the best possible way (as in stand up for the oppressed, using whatever means necessary–and I don’t mean maybe, she reminds me of a Christian version of a social rights activist cut from 60s – 70s cloth), was invited by her more timid best friend to Wednesday evening youth group at the local SBC church. Why? Because her friend is afraid of the new youth worker for junior high and high school. Why the fear? Turns out he is on probation for statutory rape of a 14 year old after having spent time in prison! She said this youth leader, who supposedly talks all the time about how on fire he is for Jesus, recently cornered her 17 year old best friend and told her how he had the hots for her and was going to “pulverize her boyfriend’s face if he tried to stand in his way”..how he’d be watching her and waiting for her…etc.

    Unbelievable. I guess I got one to fight in my own back yard. What is it with the SBC?

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  102. “I think we need to make something clear about Phillips here.

    He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.

    His pattern of deceit and heresy are more than enough to believe Lourdes over Doug. More than enough.

    According to the Bible, this man should be treated as an unbeliever. We need to quit pretending that Doug Phillips is our fallen brother when he is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is a predator, a false teacher and a heathen. I would be very wary of receiving instruction from women like Stacy and Kelly, women who seem to think that Doug Phillips just needs Christian love and prayer, when Doug Phillips was clearly never an actual Christian in the first place.”

    Rachel, I have thought the same thing, so we’re on the same page, kid.

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  103. ” the local SBC church. Why? Because her friend is afraid of the new youth worker for junior high and high school. Why the fear? Turns out he is on probation for statutory rape of a 14 year old after having spent time in prison!”

    I bet Amy Smith could give them a piece of her mind!

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  104. What we’re seeing is a lot of apostasy masquerading as Christianity, and the reason the abusers are claiming Christianity is because they can get closer to the true Church and do more damage to it. They destroy believers through spreading false doctrine, abusive patriarchy, slander, child abuse, authoritarian church structures where members of the true Church are being told they must essentially seek God through the leaders, or women are more or less told they can only seek God through their husbands.

    Of course they present themselves as good, they take great pains to tell you so. This is exactly what the Lord warned us about, the servants of a false god presenting themselves as angels of light. Of course they do, what do we expect? We were warned 2,000 years ago.

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  105. “Turns out he is on probation for statutory rape of a 14 year old after having spent time in prison! She said this youth leader, who supposedly talks all the time about how on fire he is for Jesus, recently cornered her 17 year old best friend and told her how he had the hots for her and was going to “pulverize her boyfriend’s face if he tried to stand in his way”..how he’d be watching her and waiting for her…etc.”

    Yes, this sounds just like the new SBC. Of course the pew sitters will beam with smiles that they are “full of grace” for sinners like him and even
    pay him to harass his charges!

    Moral chaos.

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  106. Truthdector, @3:41. At the risk of de-railing, but there are several on this board who state that they have experience with legal prosecution of sex abuse cases and law enforcement. I will defer to them. However, from my armchair, 1) kudos to your daughter for being a good friend; 2) kudos to her friend for seeing a potentially very dangerous situation and getting help.
    Next. Go to the police. Now. I am aghast that any organization would hire a sex offender to work with children/teens. It is grossly negligent and they have assumed enormous risk in doing so — civil and maybe criminal liability. The responsible organizations of which I am aware all will disqualify a sex offender from working with children; many require fingerprinting and check applicants against registries because it is so well document that serial offenders seek out the vulnerable places in the system to continue their predation. The individual could be in violation of the terms of his own parole which would prohibit interaction with children/teens. It’s so typical of teens to go to their friends and not seek the help of adults — why would they when it is adults who have endangered them in the first place. She must do something, now, or this could become a terrible situation.

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  107. Rachel and Lynn,

    I used to think of the patriarchalists as brethren in error. I thought that they were just odd, more uptight Calvinists who were fearfully looking for a magic pill to fix everything about life that they didn’t like. They were trying to clean up the hard stuff in life by scrubbing up and putting fancy bows on things from the banal elements of humanity to the cancerous. They also didn’t like ambiguity very much, so offering black and white answers to complex, messy people’s messy problems helped them feel like they had control.

    I thought all of that until I started a study of “multigenerational faithfulness.” It isn’t just Covenant Theology with a strong tie to the Old Testament as Retha pointed out, further up the comment thread. It’s another gospel, and good news it is not. It’s freewillism and a method of pulling one up by one’s bootstraps, all wrapped up with “Calvin” and “Knox” and “Rushdoony” stamped all over. It necessitates high measures of control because it is driven by man’s striving through legalism. And it helps you feel like you’re getting a leg up over other lesser Christians through quite a bit of leveling by tearing other people down so you can have the highest spire in the neighborhood. All of that requires quite a bit of work.

    But the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. No one stands any higher than any other.

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  108. Lydiasellerofpurple

    I am stunned, and at the SBC church 3 miles from my office. They put a molester with the youth who threatens and intimidates at least one minor with very unwanted sexual advances. According to my daughter, the story her best friend relates is of this being relatively in the open, during youth night, not in some closet back of the church or after the parents had gone home, the intimidation was allegedly in front of other youth! She also said–and I am not making this up–that the new guy in his “Christian testimony” admitted to the youth group his arrest and conviction, professed his new found faith in Jesus, then proceeded to tell them that he was done wrong and abused by the 14 year old, who set him up and did him wrong. That sounds too absurd to be true. Either I’m getting the story wrong or something is so seriously wrong as to be nearly beyond belief. And there are some decent people, multiple friends of ours, who have their children in this group.

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  109. “He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.”

    Yes……..even the men who were there to confront him have blatantly said he’s not repentant. NOT in the least. I and many others have said that he wasn’t repentant while all of these people just still were drinking that kool-aid and sucking it dry…….and fawning all over him. Sick!

    Like

  110. Comment #284, for what it’s worth: Why did I allow myself to be held hostage at CCC for four months? Because even though I knew something wasn’t right, I trusted them and thought maybe I was the real problem. Secondly, I thought they had authority over me. Thirdly, the CCC elders were/are well respected in Reformed circles. Fourthly, I thought I belonged to the only Christian camp worth being a part of. Fifthly, I thought they had the authority to declare me an unbeliever. Sixth, all of the friends I had were in Reformed circles. Being excommunicated means the loss of all of those friends, and for many, your career which i saw happen more than once.

    In her case, add the possibility that polygamy may be accepted in the inner circles of the Patriarchy movement. Did she know that his wife knew?

    At any rate, as one who was literally held hostage for 4 months; ie, *you can’t vacate membership and you damn well better show up every time the doors are open,* I can tell you the consent angle is the devil’s argument. The CCC elders defended themselves according to the idea that I “agreed to stay as long as I did.” Right, and look what happened when I left. I f you have never been brainwashed–you wont understand.

    But ok, let’s say she was consenting; whatever happened to leaders being responsible for leading younger, less mature believers astray? A real leader holds the leader completely liable. The fact that Wilson would even go there shows what kind of leader he is. It’s like a bank robber getting hit by a car as he flees and making the story about the driver who hit him.

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  111. I wonder if Queen Bee McDonald has been discussing this thread with her husband because he issued this on his public Facebook page today (h/t FJ winky back) https://www.facebook.com/james.mcdonald1/posts/10203391267600891?stream_ref=5

    Warning – rant alert…
    When I went into ministry, I answered the call of God, gladly leaving behind a six-figure salary as a corporate executive, yearly bonuses, stock options, the best hotels, fine dining, travels to exotic countries, and first class seating.
    I happily embraced being home with my family, a greatly-reduced pastor’s salary, a 15-passenger van, and family road trips to homeschool conferences.
    But I also inherited critics who hate my guts, defame my name, twist my doctrinal positions, question my motives, attack my wife, and gossip about my children online. Because, after all, I’m in the ministry for personal, financial gain and glory.
    Yes, I’m self-serving like that.

    Like

  112. Cindy,

    I greatly appreciate your transparency as you share your journey to healing from abuse. I think by being so open, you are in a sense giving others permission to get help, too, because so many churches teach that getting mental health help is sinful. I disagree.

    In my church background, it was wrong to seek counseling outside of an approved kind of Biblical counseling. I did that and it didn’t help with my PTSD whatsoever. In fact the Biblical counseling I got sent me in a downward spiral even worse than I started because then it seemed like God was abandoning me when my prayers, Bible reading weren’t helping to relieve the symptoms. Finally after going to a psychologist (who happened to be a great Christian guy), was I able to get to the root of the issue and I am very happy to say I have experienced no more PTSD symptoms. It’s been around 22 years since I had my last flashback. Am I ashamed that I had to seek a mental health expert? No way! I think it saved my life.

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  113. Julie Anne,

    What frightens me about all this is that though my mother was terrified of psychologists and such, I found understanding and acceptance. I started nursing school in my teens, and millions of unanswered questions started making incredible sense. It’s something when you can sit in a lecture and someone reads a list of symptoms (depression), and you find that you have every single one. I remember learning about one personality disorder and looking around the room at others, for one of my family members had every single item on the list in abundance. I had a hard time accepting that this was really a disorder. It was my norm for this person in my life. I identified the problems and found hope and acceptance in a field that I trusted. But psych classes were hard for me — between that and the whole bit about demonology, too. I got into counseling just before I turned twenty — when I was able to get there myself and pay for it.

    I also had a profound experience in a clinical experience when I was in my senior year and already an RN at about age 19 or 20. I observed a substance abuse disorder group therapy session for teens, and I asked the therapist who ran the group if I could say something before we disbanded. I explained that the session was remarkable for me personally, for the only difference between them and me was that I didn’t have access to substances. I turned to working and schoolwork and achievement as my drug, but my feelings and experiences were the same. Girls there had been molested and were trying to drown their sorrows to be numb instead of in pain. There were two there that self-injured, another addictive behavior which gives the person some sense of both being alive and of having some control over their expressions of pain, releasing calming endorphins in the process.

    I had that lifeline thrown to me as a consequence of my nursing training which I had access to at a young age. I availed myself of that help and continued to seek it out. And I stay accountable to a couple of different practitioners to keep myself grounded, too, in addition to those who provide me with oversight for my blog.

    What do the people who are deep into patriarchy or even just plain old Evangelicalism that looks on clinical mental healthcare as evil? PTSD is sinful self-indulgence. It’s not a physical survival process that gets stuck in the “on” position. I had liberty and encouragement and found solace and care in therapeutic psychology — and not for lack of trying to find it in the church. I’ve had so many sessions of deliverance that I cannot even count them, though I was never told that I had any demonic problems. Abuse and getting free of it came up frequently, however…

    How do we get the message of hope to those who have been indoctrinated to fear and reject it? That’s the billion dollar question.

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  114. How do we get the message of hope to those who have been indoctrinated to fear and reject it? That’s the billion dollar question.

    We do what you’re doing – share our stories transparently without shame!

    I think we’re a little bit alike, Cindy. I remember self-diagnosing myself before I ever went to the psychologist. Back then, there was no internet, I had to do it the old fashioned way of going to the library. It was pretty clear I had PTSD.

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  115. Talk about playing the victim role…James McDonald no one here has done anything to you, your ministry (in which biblically your disqualified) , or your children.

    Although, your wife has been called to the carpet for her hit and run smirky comments on Doug Wilson blog. Perhaps, James you should instruct your wife to stay off the internet and not make smirky comments about something she know nothing about, if that is what your referring to in your face book post.

    I have a question for Stacy who writes this in her book….This does not mean that James and I were blameless in every aspect of our past relationships. We made mistakes, sinned, repented, and were forgiven, fallen creatures that we are. There is no question of whether or not we were perfect spouses—we were not! But that does not negate the fact that we were both the “innocent victims” of adultery.

    she writes this about you and her, “Innocent victims” of adultery, but she has no compassion for Lourdes whom has been violated and abused.

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  116. JA, re McDonald facebook rant (23.9:33pm). After all the issues brought up in criticism of patriarchy, he points out how good he is for giving up his lovely lolly.

    And as he sees it, the criticisms aren’t of patriarchy, but of little ole him: his guts, his name, his doctrinal positions, his motives, his wife, his children.

    They aren’t criticisms, either, but twisting, defaming, attacking, gossip. Perhaps McDonald thinks that there is no such thing as legitimate criticism for his position, which is, of course, perfect in all aspects.

    Ach.

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  117. Waitingforthetrumpet2, please be patient with yourself. There’s not a cure for a severe case of PTSD, but it fades a great deal over time even while it still waxes and wanes. Reminders will set it off, and this load of crap certainly qualifies. One gets through an upsurge most quickly by being very very kind to one’s self. Gentle, merciful, gracious.

    Also, as one goes along, layers get peeled back, as Cindy K is also experiencing now. They are not just meaningless repetition but new learning that can make the subsequent upsurges less intense.

    It is completely unfair to be in such a destructed position. My sympathies to you, travelling the same path.

    I don’t know if you’ve checked, but I do recommend Pete Walker’s site—he has useful stuff for managing remaining symptoms.
    http://www.pete-walker.com/

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  118. Cindy K, thanks for telling some of your story. I think it’s remarkable how you’ve kept an open heart/mind throughout. Much respect!

    And it has paid off in spades.

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  119. Theresa N.,

    PTSD – post traumatic stress disorder

    It is what most abused victims are diagnosed with when your mental health problems surface.

    For me, I had been dating a guy who was putting a lot of pressure on me for s*x, I said, “no.” Anyway, one morning I had a intense moment where all I could do was cry. I had been part of the local Presbyterian Campus Ministry, and knew they had a support group for survivors. The person who ran the ministry and support group has a degree in psychology. My mom, being bi-polar, had a psychologist she visited regularly so I was not afraid to go get help. First I visited with him for a couple of sessions and then joined the support group. (Found out later the same person had abused my brother.)

    Hope that helps.

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  120. “And as he sees it, the criticisms aren’t of patriarchy, but of little ole him: his guts, his name, his doctrinal positions, his motives, his wife, his children.

    They aren’t criticisms, either, but twisting, defaming, attacking, gossip. Perhaps McDonald thinks that there is no such thing as legitimate criticism for his position, which is, of course, perfect in all aspects.”

    Patrice nailed it re: James McDonald.
    I personally know people involved in the Patriarchal fringe of homeschooling. I love these people. I have fond memories of time spent together. However, I *strongly* disagree with their ideology. This makes it awkward, no?

    Mr. McDonald,
    Nobody has attacked your personal life on this blog. We are calling out your ideology. I believe we’ve been far more gracious than your wife who called us crazy and “scary.” Please, don’t project onto us.

    Like

  121. Cindy K, JA, and everyone: I think that you (all who are working hard to bring the message of hope and there are many!) are doing a great job putting the message of hope out there, within the givens. Unfortunately, the christian media is as corrupted as national media, presenting the pro-institutional line and excluding everything else.

    Maybe we could find ways to intercept the media, such as Deb/Dee did recently at TWW, paying for an announcement at Christian News Service. There are billboards, too, and flyers that can be given people as they leave church (or put on car windows). Etc. Maybe we could campaign the good pastors—help them find easy ways to address it with their congregations: provide little meditations on such, establish phrases to use, write one-time studies for their Sunday schools (Bible studies, mens/womens groups), write some three-point sermons that they can use as outlines.

    I’m not being imaginative here, but surely we can find ways to get pushy. Because you’ve laid the foundations well and now it needs to be advertised.

    I am open to helping out on some of this stuff. I can’t be active out there, but I can edit, write blurbs, etc.

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  122. Cindy K, how I wish PTSD was merely sinful self-indulgence! Underlying that declaration is an insistence that for a Christian, everything that hurts in life is fixable. Perhaps they think it must be so or Christ’s resurrection means nothing, I don’t know. But they also believe that evil comes from outside the church and that everyone outside the church is evil, which causes several huge problems:

    –It keeps them from going outside to get help, such as therapy.
    –It encourages them to think themselves far better than is accurate.
    –It makes them vulnerable to evil inside the church.
    –It promotes the presumption that everything can be found in their own circles, or if not yet, easily developed since they have the complete truth at their fingertips. Unfortunately, it reduces them to stupidity.

    People inside who aren’t healed by their narrow derivative systems, whose experience shows that evil is also inside the church, and who prove to them their own inadequacies, are reduced to “heathen” and dismissed. They must do this in order to maintain their delusions. And since they’ve tied their delusions to God Himself, it is not likely that they’ll give them up.

    Brad Futurist Guy dismantles this way of thinking and I think it’s very important. At some point, his stuff will need to be translated into shorter articles, using common vocab. I think that’s part of the needed campaign.

    Like

  123. Teresa N.,
    Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) can happen from witnessing a traumatic event or helping a friend or family member through a traumatic event. A horrific car accident, war, suffering child abuse (physical or emotional), sexual assault, and, of course, spiritual abuse or other forms of manipulation and control. It can come from one event or a series of events and is diagnosed based on flashbacks, avoidance of the memories or any mention of similar events, detachment, irritable behavior, angry outbursts, problems concentrating, self-destructive behavior, hypervigilance and several others including negative self-image or thoughts (“can’t trust anyone”) and avoidance of the place where it happened – people who avoid church, for example, after being abused (though that can also just be a change in life and not a symptom).

    If you or anyone you know has any of these symptoms, talk to a professional. There is treatment that helps. My husband has PTSD and fortunately is much better now but the thing about it is that it doesn’t necessarily show up right away. It often creeps in slowly. So a person may be abused in their church but not have all the symptoms right away – maybe one or two and the family normalizes it, but then more symptoms show up and then they become barriers to a healthy life. The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) is a great resource for families supporting someone with PTSD.

    It’s not necessarily the severity of the incident but how you felt about it and how your own body reacts to it – people can go through the same event and have completely different responses. That is another reason why people who claim “it didn’t bother anyone else” or “she’s not really a victim” are so harmful. You can’t know. And PTSD spreads to the family and can damage them in turn.

    Like

  124. Thanks Jackie C.

    I have to go get my colonoscopy this morning cause I am 50 now but I will comment later. Having to drink that crap was dreadful…..I am hungry…lol

    Like

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