Doug Phillips & Vision Forum, Doug Wilson, Failure to Report Crimes, Homeschool Movement, Ken Ham, Learn to Discern, Lourdes Torres vs Doug Phillips lawsuit, Patriarchal-Complementarian Movement, Reconstructionist-Dominion Movement, Scott Brown, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Vision Forum, Women and the Church

Queen Bees of Homeschooling Stacy McDonald and Kelly Crawford Don’t Like the “Victim” Word in the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips Lawsuit

***

Well-known homeschooling moms Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald comment regarding the “victim” word with regard to the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips lawsuit.

***

Doug Wilson comments as follows regarding Doug Phillips’s sexual sins against Lourdes Torres-Manteufel:

Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips lawsuit, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel Screen Shot 2014-04-21 at 9.20.41 PM

 

(Trigger warning for survivors of victimization by sexual abuse or assault, and/or spiritual abuse.) There has been a heated discussion at Doug Wilson’s blog on an article entitled Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum.

Wilson discusses why he thinks Lourdes Torres-Manteufel should not be called a “victim,” that it is prejudging the case to do so, especially because she was an adult when the sexual incidences occurred.

Here is this classic response from Wilson – someone who has no clue as to how sexual abuse victims respond:

But if his attentions were entirely unwelcome to her, and she was freaked out by the creepster, then we have to ask why she wasn’t down the road at the first opportunity — that night or the next morning — with Doug Phillips receiving notification of her opinion of what transpired via the sound of sirens. That’s not what happened, on anyone’s account, and so I don’t think we should identify her as a victim.

Presently there are 163 comments. I found the comments that affirmed Wilson’s stance repulsive – just as repulsive as this: The Real Doug Wilson Encouraged & Presided Over the Marriage of Serial Pedophile.

I think what was most infuriating to me were the comments from well-known women who are part of Christian Patriarchy Movement. Let’s start with Kelly Crawford. In a few days, she will be speaking fairly near me at a homeschooling conference. Look at the lineup of Patriarchs: Ken Ham, R.C. Sproul, Jr., Scott Brown, Israel Wayne, Marshall Foster. Doing a simple Google search of Doug Phillips’ name with any one of these men will yield multiple results and their connections together in “ministry” work.

**

Kelly Crawford, Scott Brown, Israel Wayne, Ken Ham

**

I couldn’t find much of a bio on Kelly. She is a homeschooling mom of 10. She is a speaker and blogger who once had Vision Forum affiliate ads on her blog’s sidebar. Let’s read what she has to say on Lourdes as “victim”:

Kelly Crawford, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel, Doug Phillips lawsuit Screen Shot 2014-04-21 at 9.13.31 PM

Kelly Crawford

April 18, 2014 at 2:58 pm

And finally, I breathe a big sigh of “amen” for the first, that I’ve read, of real discernment over the situation, and a wise call to hold adults responsible instead of perpetuating a “victim” culture. [Emphasis added.]

Since the first pieces started popping up on the scandal, I’m saying, “why is she a victim?” We are talking, by the way, about a confident, assertive young woman and *nothing* like the mousy allusions I’ve read. Don’t ask me how I know.

“We cannot accuse Vision Forum of treating all women like little girls, and then turn around and treat all women as little girls who can’t be expected to say no to a cad at Vision Forum.” [JA note: This sentence she quotes is from Doug Wilson’s article.]

I can’t thank you enough for saying this.

**


Here are two more comments on Doug Wilson’s article from another well-known woman in Christian Patriarchy Movement, Stacy McDonald. (Incidentally, this week her husband, Teaching Elder – another way of saying “pastor” in family-integrated churchesJames McDonald has jumped on the popular defend-the-Patriarchy bandwagon with his own article, The “P” Word.)

 

Stacy McDonald, Doug Phillips lawsuit, Lourdes Torres-Manteufel Screen Shot 2014-04-21 at 9.16.30 PM

Thank you, Pastor Wilson! You nailed it! I’ve tried to say the same thing and was accused of not having sympathy for the “victim,” which no one can prove she was at this point.

However, I absolutely DO have sympathy for the fact that she was used by a man in power – a man she had respected and revered. She was seduced into a sinful relationship by a “religious” man who represented godliness to her. I agree there is no excuse.

She said she was told that he would marry her. She said she was told that his wife would die soon and they could be together. Sickening. She said she was in love him. Why would these words have even been significant unless she felt deceived by his promises – deceived into going along with it in some way? And then realized it was never going to happen – she was being used.

Any time an insecure young woman is cajoled into a sexual relationship by a man – especially a married man, she is being used and taken advantage of. The impact is multiplied when “religion” is involved.

But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar. Or perhaps an intern to the president…

That is part of the reason men are called to protect women, which makes this disgraceful thing all the more tragic.

I realize that the fact he was a Christian leader compounds the influence he had over her emotionally, but she still owns her own sin. And I still maintain that the truest victims here are his wife and children. [Emphasis added.]

And that says nothing of the public spectacle it’s become inside and outside the church or the smug satisfaction oozing from every anti-patriarchy blog out there.

Thank you again.

“By this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.” (2 Samuel 12:14)

***************

More from Stacy McDonald:

April 19, 2014 at 9:33 am

I guess I’m confused as to how asking for $10 million dollars from him and his victimized family is a cry for help. And, if she had not gone to the media, but instead sought Christian arbitration; and, if her family, her church, and the people in her community all wound up believing her, wouldn’t that be enough? Besides, “everyone” is not going to believe her anyway.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some sort of restitution if her claims are proven true. But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church).

I think if it were me, trying the case in the court of public opinion would hardly be satisfying anyway. Everything decently and in order. Isn’t that part of why we are Presbyterian? This is chaos.

**


**

Ok, a lot of people reading articles here at Spiritual Sounding Board are connected with the Torres-Manteufel versus Phillips lawsuit. This issue of how the public views Lourdes Torres-Manteufel is important.

These two ladies – Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald – are highly respected in Christian Homeschooling networks, so people who adhere to Patriarchy will be inclined to follow their voices.

  • What are your thoughts on their words?
  • What do you see in their comments?
  • Is Patriarchy a safe environment for women who’ve been sexually violated?

Try putting yourself in Lourdes’ shoes and consider taking a look at the entire Doug Wilson article for yourself – Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum – and the range of comments there. (Repeat: Trigger warning for survivors of abuse.) What words of support and encouragement would you have for Lourdes here, in response to the comments about her there?

**

442 thoughts on “Queen Bees of Homeschooling Stacy McDonald and Kelly Crawford Don’t Like the “Victim” Word in the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips Lawsuit”

  1. I don’t know who either of these women are and just from what I read, don’t want to. How is any of this a reflection on God? It isn’t. God will still be glorified no matter what these so-called judgmental Christians say. It is a public acknowledgement that many false teachers are just that, false. Although, the wife and children of this man are suffering embarressment and could possibly be victims of spiritual abuse the young woman involved is most definately a victim of spiritual abuse. He found himself someone that could be easily decieved. I believe Satan and his crew are good at that. This is confirmation why many do not come forward or seek help. It is terribly sad that people put themselves on a pedestal the way these folks are doing.

    Like

  2. “But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar. Or perhaps an intern to the president…”

    Stacy proves her ignorance here. She understands nothing about sexual harassment laws. In fact, business leaders fear this one more than just about anything because of HUGE settlements. It does tend to ruin careers, too. And believe me, companies are more than willing to pay for training on this issue to cover themselves because insurance demands it. I know, we did a ton of this training for years. Everyone in large companies had to take the training from the CEO on down and sign off they understand the company’s policies. And guess where some of the biggest settlements came from early on? State courts. Not Federal ones.

    But not in politics. And that is where Stacy gets it right

    The only big name that got by with using his position/power to carry on with sexual favors from a lowly office worker AT WORK is Bill Clinton. And the same arguments were used by his defenders: It was consensual. His office is also his home, etc, ad nauseum. Never mind the power/no power dichotomy. He was supposed to be the mature responsible one. Right? It is the old saw that men cannot control themselves and women are responsible. And his defenders still defend him! It was a vast right wing conspiracy!

    If Doug was an elected official it would be very different for him. We do have an oligarchy now that is protected. INstead, Doug did it in the Name of Jesus for cover.

    Yes. he is despicable. Reprobate

    Like

  3. Bleah…this stuff just sickens me. It just degenerates into a bunch of lawyer wanna-bees who hold their elitist vocabulary and education above everything else and stand outside their “camp” and yell at the rest of us using their big words and confusing logic to make us (probably just me I suppose) feel intimidated and very annoyed.

    James McDonald went to my Bill Gothard-church in TX and my first impression of him was rich and elitist…and a great fit for the VF’ers…it would be VERY interesting to see what Jordan Muela (ALERT squad mate and friend via ATI) and Peter Bradrick have to say on all of this.

    Like

  4. 1. What a curious sight it is when those who have so endlessly insisted on the subjection of women to a degree that they can barely be regarded as moral free agents now find it impossible to accept that a woman raised and indoctrinated in that very system (and placed under the direct supervision of one of its chief purveyors) could be anything less than 100% free and independent in her own decisions…

    2. While these arguments are nauseating to read, I am glad that they are being made, as it is putting a number of prominent individuals on record, and that record will live forever on the internet.

    Like

  5. Is it any wonder millennialists can’t leave the church fast enough? I honestly might have to take a break from all of this, it is so disheartening that people who claim to know my Jesus are more interested in protecting ugly ideology over other human beings made in God’s image. I am currently reading Jimmy Carter’s “A Call to Action”, which reminds me that there really are some lovely Christian leaders out there who care deeply about the way that women are treated and fight passionately for justice.

    Like

  6. We cannot “put ourselves in her shoes.” We don’t know her motives, etc. She knows her own heart and mind, we don’t. All we can see is the outside. I agree with those who say that there is more to this than a perp and a victim. It’s very complex, as sin often is. There are no easy answers. Some of what you are wishing for is not going to happen in a sinful world. I think it is too easy to let Torres off the hook so easily. She was sinned against, there is no doubt. But she also sinned, let us not overlook this. She went along with “my wife will die”, somehow thinking that she was going to be able to step into the role of wife and mother and that was going to work out?

    stephanie, To compare RC priests and their child sexual abuse and this situation is an appalling comparison. The huff post is hardly a worthy source of information. Have you personally researched how many sexual abuse cases between the faiths? (BTW I am thankful that you acknowledge that it is two faiths, not one). The RC priests are serial pedophiles. I do not believe that this is a case of serial pedophilia. You do know the difference, I hope? Also in this case, there is an outcry, not hush-hush and moving Phillips over to another church where he can continue his sin.

    Like

  7. I think victim-blaming is often a way to ease the nagging thought “What if this happened to me? What if this happened to my daughter?”

    A more honest response from the women “I am terrified. I have daughters. I’ve sent them to help at other people’s homes…. did they receive sexual harassment or abuse? Would they tell me if they did? We do everything “right”….that should protect us….right? Please, God, tell me that doing everything right will protect us from sexual predators. I’ve given everything to this model of life……”

    Like

  8. davidauge – While people may elevate some of these Queen Bees, they don’t realize that many of these Queen Bees don’t have to live by the same Patriarchal rules as common folk. Stacy talks about working it out in church. Um . . .what church BCA? Doug was one of 2 pastors (teaching elders). Now what?

    Like

  9. Oh my. I almost forgot their twisted “logic” for a while. Here Stacy lays it out:

    “I guess I’m confused as to how asking for $10 million dollars from him and his victimized family is a cry for help.”

    Why would she claim it is a ‘cry for help?. And why is she even attempting to interpret Torres’ motives? Is she trying to “frame” the debate? I think so. They are masters at it. Analyze every word, folks.

    Stacy seems ignorant of how these sorts of civil suits work. You have to ask for a minimum and paying out is part of the punishment. It is a good thing because guys like DP are all about living off others. And she is blaming the wrong person for Doug’s “victimized” family.

    ” And, if she had not gone to the media, but instead sought Christian arbitration; and, if her family, her church, and the people in her community all wound up believing her, wouldn’t that be enough? Besides, “everyone” is not going to believe her anyway.”

    And where is she supposed to find these “Christians” for arbitration? In the patriarchal ghetto she got out of?? Hey, why not hire Peacemakers? DUH. Nope. She has a better chance with the secular courts in finding fair, honest people. I cannot believe I am writring that but it is true.

    “I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some sort of restitution if her claims are proven true. But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church).”

    Interpretation: Keep all evil hidden so people won’t know how evil we really are as we use God as our facade. God is thrilled this evil is being publicly outed. Now folks will know who His REAL people are. Not the ones using him for their agenda or personal gain.

    “I think if it were me, trying the case in the court of public opinion would hardly be satisfying anyway”

    She is not you. You are not the model for her and that is a good thing. .

    ” Everything decently and in order. Isn’t that part of why we are Presbyterian? This is chaos.”

    You call what she lived through “decently and in order”? There is nothing decent or in order by a stacked ecclessiastical court. Besides, they have NO authority over DP. His own board/elders had no authority over him until it became a dangerous situation for them!

    Reminds me of what Sproul Sr did. He let his donors (Ligoneir) think he was under the authority of the Presbyterian ecclessiastical body when his church was really independent. He could not be “disciplined” either when the Ligoneir scandal hit. Besides, every charlatan wants their buddies to judge them. What else is new?

    Like

  10. I think to admit that she was a victim of the extreme patriarchy of VF and BCA would require them to confront the fact that they, and other women, are victims of the same patriarchy, or are living lies. It they are “living lies” (by their very life they give lie to their statements b/c they are inconsistent) then to admit to their own victimization would be to shed the lie and the errant theology they have been acting like they believe.

    Like

  11. “James McDonald went to my Bill Gothard-church in TX and my first impression of him was rich and elitist…and a great fit for the VF’ers…”

    That is strange. I thought he and Stacy scrounged for every buck they tried to make off the movement and their God facade. They are both divorced, right? Had huge issues with custody at one time, etc. And no one could even find his “ordination” he claimed to have and said was from the SBC. This saga went on and on back on 06-07 as they were defending DP back then, too, when they were trying to make bank with VF ties.

    She even tried to make bank off her daughters “courtship” years back online. Then it suddently disappeared when it did not work out. Nothing like putting all your kids personal lives on line. And she wants to be a role model?

    Not sure why anyone is listening to these types.

    Like

  12. Wow! I guess I’m not “in” on the homeschooling circles. Never heard of these ladies. But as a victim of sexual abuse, I can tell you it warps your mind and you somehow think it is all your fault. These ladies need to walk ten miles in Lourdes’ shoes to understand why she wouldn’t “run and tell.” When it is a person who has strong influence in your life and the rug would be pulled out from under you, there is no place to “run and tell” to.

    Like

  13. @Julie – this was back in 1999-2003 before they became all popular with the homeschooling magazine…when they were merely members and not leaders and such

    Like

  14. I think it is too easy to let Torres off the hook so easily. She was sinned against, there is no doubt. But she also sinned, let us not overlook this. She went along with “my wife will die”, somehow thinking that she was going to be able to step into the role of wife and mother and that was going to work out?

    Julie – Welcome to the blog.

    First up – we defend the victims here. It is not our place to be concerned about her sin. That is God’s business, not ours.

    It is, however, our place to be concerned about a leader who uses his position of authority over someone – in this case, Lourdes. She had been under his spell since the age of 15 years old. We cannot dismiss the emotional tug-of-war that was going on with her also knowing that she’s supposed to submit to men in this system of Patriarchy. Keep in mind, Doug was her spiritual leader, her employer, too.

    I’m thinking of the local superintendent who was fired because of having a “consensual” affair with a subordinate. Come on – if this kind of response is well-known in the public arena, then why is it that Christians have such a hard time with this? We seem to be rather slow. No wonder we are the laughing stock of many.

    Like

  15. I do think you need to be careful to lump all the leaders speaking at that conference into the same boat. From everything we’ve seen over many years, particularly with Ken Ham and AiG, their connections with DP and VF were due to their common ground of defending Creation. Yes, they speak at the same conferences sometimes, but that certainly doesn’t mean that Ham (or all of the other men) support every single thing that DP does.

    Crawford and McDonald, on the other hand, are clearly supporting DP in every despicable way. It shouldn’t be surprising because everything that they stand for – and make money on – depends on that patriarchal mindset.

    While we were never part of the VF/Gothard crew, we know many, many people who are and it’s not surprising that all of this is happening. When you put more stock in what a man says, rather than searching the Scriptures for yourself, the doors are wide open for just about any sin under the sun. Especially when the leader – like DP or Gothard – has enormous issues with pride, ego, and control.

    Sin – including following false teaching – blinds you to common sense and good judgment.

    Regardless of what category you put Lourdes in – victim, sometimes a victim, or not a victim at all – Crawford, McDonald, and Wilson should be infuriated that someone in DP’s highly public, outspoken position was involved in such a heinous sin for an extended period of time. That’s the bandwagon they should be on – rather than vilifying his accuser. (and FWIW, I definitely believe she’s a victim – even if she had only protested once!)

    Thank you, Julie, for taking on this controversial subject and standing for what is right.

    Like

  16. I wonder how different these women would think if this happened to their daughter. Would they tell her, “You need to accept responsibility for your own sin.”

    Like

  17. @lydiasellerofpurple on April 22, 2014 at 7:48 AM

    As I was reading the article, I had the same response you communicated in your comment above. These women are in a huge bubble (that needs to pop) if they don’t even understand what happens in the real world when someone in a supervisory position gives unwanted sexual advances to a subordinate. And it could go on for some time if the subordinate person is in fear of job loss or, in Lourdes’ case add to that the fear of doing harm to the man (who was supposed to be God’s representative to her) and his family (whom she loved, cared for, and grew up with).

    Kelley and Stacy are clueless in their patriarchal bubbles.

    Like

  18. Kathi:
    I think these women are so arrogant and out of touch and believe it could never happen to their daughters.

    Like

  19. “think it is too easy to let Torres off the hook so easily. She was sinned against, there is no doubt. But she also sinned, let us not overlook this. She went along with “my wife will die”, somehow thinking that she was going to be able to step into the role of wife and mother and that was going to work out? ”

    So how do you explain those 30 year old “daughters” living at home, serving their fathers, uneducated and watiing to be courted and an offer of marriage their father approves of?

    How DO you explain that? Why don’t they just leave? Where would they go? How many people do they actually know outside their patriarchal ghetto? I know of 2 older girls stuck at home serving daddy who escaped Scott Browns ghetto. Let me tell you it was hell for them to enter the real world.

    If she had “gone along” we would not be having this discussion.

    “stephanie, To compare RC priests and their child sexual abuse and this situation is an appalling comparison. The huff post is hardly a worthy source of information. Have you personally researched how many sexual abuse cases between the faiths? (BTW I am thankful that you acknowledge that it is two faiths, not one). The RC priests are serial pedophiles. I do not believe that this is a case of serial pedophilia. You do know the difference, I hope? Also in this case, there is an outcry, not hush-hush and moving Phillips over to another church where he can continue his sin.”

    This is ignorance on steriods. The only reason the RCC was nailed so big was because of their church structure. If each catholic church had been independent (like say Baptists) with no real way to track pedophile priests who moved on, it would be a whole other story. We would have never known the extent of the problem. Victims would have only identified with specific Catholic churche/priests and would most likely have taken the internet to even find each other from the same specific church.

    The Protestants are catching up, though. Even though most of their churches are independent there are lots more reporting instead of hiding it. But some of them have gone on for a long time. Like DP, Jack Schaap, Coy, and many others.

    They are just harder to nail as they are usually surrounded by yes men, isolated as leaders or in the case of the pervert pew sitter, they allow the pervert to leave the church quietly in order not to hurt the image of the church since it is about getting people in pews to tithe. Some will say it is not to hurt the name of Jesus publicly…Stacy used that one against Torres.

    That way the perp can go on to other churches to molest morechildren. I am sure Jesus is pleased as punch His name was protected. Sigh.

    Whenever I see the “Catholics are worse” defense, I know what I am dealing with. I hope that argument does not work with you when your kids use it.

    Like

  20. Kathi –

    Because of their belief system, some parents would blame their own child and kick them out of their home unless they repented satisfactorily (determined by the parent and the church leaders). This is a catch 22 for parents and children in these systems.

    Some parents might actually be compelled to look at their beliefs and have a change in heart and mind and leave the system.

    Like

  21. “do think you need to be careful to lump all the leaders speaking at that conference into the same boat. From everything we’ve seen over many years, particularly with Ken Ham and AiG, their connections with DP and VF were due to their common ground of defending Creation. Yes, they speak at the same conferences sometimes, but that certainly doesn’t mean that Ham (or all of the other men) support every single thing that DP does.”

    So it is about the speaking fees? Has nothing to do with truth or integrity? Does he support Scott Brown’s form of patriarchy which is stifling? Surely he would not lend his name to something he does not support? It is not a debate. It is a conference with a specific position.

    You might be surprised at the amount of income that is derived from speaking at conferences. it serves two purposes—get your name, book, materials out there for sale. Build your brand and create an income stream. You would not believe the amount of money that would dry up for them if they stopped with speaking gigs.

    Yes, I lump them in. You become like who you associate with. Birds of a feather. The cliches have meaning.

    Like

  22. I typically am okay with articles straying off topic, however, this one is really important to me because of so many people reading and trying to make sense of what Doug Phillips stood for and how that relates to their family now. If you are able to share important thoughts along these lines, it would be so helpful. This isn’t just about Lourdes and Doug – it’s a system that caused this and enabled this to go on for so long. Now this same system is responding inappropriately by blame shifting.

    Let’s leave the Catholic Church out of this discussion, please, so we can focus on the system of Patriarchy and what happens when there is abuse. thanks!

    Like

  23. Tom Parker: “I think these women are so arrogant and out of touch and believe it could never happen to their daughters.”

    I think the same about Kevin Swanson on his radio program about how to deal with sexual abuse. I don’t think he believes that a Christian father or mother could perpetrate sexual abuse against his/her own child. It’s always at the hand of a teacher, babysitter or priest.

    Like

  24. You’re right, Kathi. On the Wilson thread, they have it all figured out. Lourdes should have gone to her father, that would have solved the problem. They should have gone to church leadership and that would have solved the problem. I disagree.

    How would Bob Sarratt, the remaining teaching elder at Boerne Christian Assembly have handled this situation? Well, if his current actions prove anything, we can pretty much guarantee that he would have failed both Lourdes AND Phillips.

    I’ve heard reports that Phillips is back at his church and repentant and behaving himself. Ummmmm HELLOOOOOO! if Phillips was truly repentant, he would have no need to issue public statements/interviews in his defense. He would take it in stride as fallout from HIS OWN sin. Why hasn’t Sarratt kicked his hiney out of church?

    Like

  25. Julie Anne,

    Sinful abuse doesn’t care the gender type. Most abusive Male/Female Hyper Theologians can’t exist without men/women backing them up.

    My wife endured more spiritual abuse and sinful retaliation from 3 women who embraced our former Stealth Hyper-Calvinian Pastor’s aggressive and deceitful Methodology.

    Like

  26. These two women are just revictimizing Lourdes. Stacy will not post or answer my questions like, “What do you say to the fact that what Phillips did is illegal in Texas?” I guess in her world Christians are above the law. JA, I liked your comment on the facebook page set up for Lourdes. The name of the page has slipped my mind. It might be a good idea to post it on your blog, so your readers can send her words of encouragement!

    Like

  27. First, let me say I do not support the patriarchy movement and I am not a Presbyterian. I find no basis for either in Christ’s teachings. Jesus taught us to forgive and to love the sinner, even the likes of Doug Phillips.
    Thank goodness He did, as I am a sinner saved by grace, who has walked in shoes similar to Lourdes. So , I would tell her that I weep for her for the actions of Doug Phillips has changed her life and the lives of those she loves and will love forever. This will define the two of them throughout their lives. Then, I would encourage her to fall on her face before God and repent , first to God, then to those she offended, especially Doug Phillips’ wife and children, and her own family. And, God is merciful, He will forgive her and cleanse her from all unrighteousness. But , this will still not go away in this life. She will grieve this for some time.

    Was she violated and sexually abused by a man she held in high regard? Most definitely, yes. But to continue in the relationship for years and claim to ” love him “, when she knew he already had a wife, is falling prey to adultery. In His word, God promises to give us an escape when temptation tries to overtake us, so He would have most certainly provided one for her if she had chosen that path . Please don’t misunderstand, I am not judging her. I just know first hand the consequences of those actions. I know Doug Phillips is the main offender. His sins have hurt many and destroyed the income of many families. I feel certain had she not been compliant, he would have found someone who would be. These two people made some terrible mistakes. It’s time for them both to humble themselves and seek to make amends, and for the rest of us to say , “there but by the grace of God go I “, and get on with our own lives.

    Like

  28. “I do think you need to be careful to lump all the leaders speaking at that conference into the same boat. From everything we’ve seen over many years, particularly with Ken Ham and AiG, their connections with DP and VF were due to their common ground of defending Creation. Yes, they speak at the same conferences sometimes, but that certainly doesn’t mean that Ham (or all of the other men) support every single thing that DP does.”

    Do you understand the phrase ” Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.”
    Until these supposed TRUE CHRISTIANS step up and condemn these evil men, the ship shod theology an spiritual abuse will continue. and people like me will continue to say: I’m not a christian because I won’t be associated with such evil.”

    Like

  29. Barbara, you are judging her. Until you are put in her position, in that environment, with her parents, with that church, underneath that authority, in that community, please stop judging her. We will not have victim blaming here. Even in the secular world there is an expression, “the buck stops here.” Heads of corporations, military will step aside when there was wrong doing under their watch. This is about the abuse done by a church leader. She is not on trial.

    Like

  30. in a similar case in the Bible, God judge the man in authority and punished him for his sin. Notice Nathan did not say you and she sinned, you both need to repent or Bathsheba was gulity for not crying out and running to Uriah. He held David accountable alone for what had happened and the condemnation uttered was ” thou art the man.”

    Like

  31. As an ex member of BCA I am here to tell you that there is no way for anyone to appeal or work it out with the leadership when you disagree with them.There is no one to go to above them and all the ‘sister” churches and other patriarch leaders all just turn the other cheek and remain silent.They will not get involved and will not usually help. If they do they usually just take someone in but do not want to know their story and all is well as long as you remain silent.

    To top it off they cover things up so much at the top that the BCA deacons never knew even a fraction of what is really going on. Then they have their chosen ones who are not in leadership, but are in on the problem because they are “special” and use intimidation factors on the folks involved. The lower your social status in the group the worse you are treated and the less you are listened to. This is one of the huge problems here and one that many just do not understand.There is no real way to take a disagreement to these leaders. This is the problem and why abuse is allowed to run rampant!

    It is so maddening to know that Bob Sarratt is a useless form of elder as he has no one he is held accountable to and when yoked with Doug he was unable to do a thing without Doug’s approval.Doug ran the show and was the show at BCA, VF and VFM. The fact that he (Bob) kept this quiet for almost a year and supposedly did not tell the VF ministries board ( of which we and many others find highly improbable they did not know as Bob’s son in law is one of Don Harts attorneys) is quite telling. He let him go on speaking and carrying on as if none of this had happened for almost a year. The inter mixing and marrying of all these folks across the country is quite disturbing too as they are all very tied in with one another and you wonder who is really protecting who. They are all trying to protect their money making machine of patriarchy and it is really showing now how this system can ultimately work to get someone in the position Lourdes was put in. This is not how the true church of Jesus Christ should be functioning!

    I know what we went up against when we went up against them and I do not wish that kind of absolute spiritual abuse upon anyone. I can only imagine what a young lady like Lourdes would experience and to be frank, I wonder if they even believed her at first- especially as Doug was still a co-elder. It must have been horrifying and took a massive amount of courage to confront this patriarchal mad man head on! Praying for the truth to be known and an end to this abuse by this man!

    I am also praying for an end of these teachings across the country at home school conventions where innocent unaware new homeschoolers are swept up without a clue as to what their money is really supporting and what they are actually buying into. That is how we were originally sucked in.

    Like

  32. I don’t believe Lourdes has anything to repent of in this situation. It’s like the Stockholm Syndrome. She was so indoctrinated to believe that a woman’s “role” was to be completely submissive and subservient to all males, and especially to any male who claimed “authority” over her. Women, girls and children are considered nothing more than property with which men may do as they please. Women, girls and children must blindly and silently obey these men immediately and without question.

    I am absolutely sickened by this male-dominance, male supremacy culture. I’ve never seen egos this big before in my life. And they get away with it. Un-frickin’-believable. 😦

    Like

  33. Not Fooled Anymore,

    Your background information was very helpful and is similar to what has been told me.

    My opinion: Bob Sarratt should resign. BCA should completely disband. There is too much hurt and corruption here to continue.

    Like

  34. Julie Anne,

    I agree completely. I do not understand,who in their right mind would even still go there nor want their name associated with BCA. It blows my mind completely.

    Like

  35. I agree completely. I do not understand,who in their right mind would even still go there nor want their name associated with BCA. It blows my mind completely.

    Sadly, I’ve read of groups of families who have left BCA that still meeting together.

    I might have to do a post on this. There was a group that left our former church and it is very difficult to move a group like that to another place of worship (whether that be another traditional church or a home fellowship). It can get very messy and complicated. It usually brings challenges to the new group. It’s inevitable because of the amount of discord and division that already existed. Compound that with people in various stages of recovery and realizing what they went through, it just keeps a dysfunctional cycle going on and on.

    Like

  36. If Kevin Swanson doesn’t believe a parent can sin sexually against his/her child, he must believe in sinless perfection. Error! Such error demeans Christ and worships self and family.

    Like

  37. ““I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some sort of restitution if her claims are proven true. But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church).”

    Interpretation: Keep all evil hidden so people won’t know how evil we really are as we use God as our facade. God is thrilled this evil is being publicly outed. Now folks will know who His REAL people are. Not the ones using him for their agenda or personal gain. ”

    What caused the name of Christ being dragged through the mud is Phillips’ reprehensible actions! I agree with you completely Lydia!

    Like

  38. These women are brainwashed and therefore their statements are not valid. They are in the same position as Beall Phillips, completely dominated by their husbands and convinced that they are second class citizens in the eyes of the Lord. They are more to be pitied than scorned. We should not be so quick to assume that the image of the “perfect homeschool queen bee” that they project for the world is what their lives are truly like. Don’t forget that prior to this scandal it was thought that Beall was the ultimate homeschool queen with a perfect life and look at her today. In fact I would go so far as to say that these women are themselves victims even as they victimize others. I know they don’t see it, but they are being used in a system set up to benefit men and boys. A system that values them only as breeders and glorified maids. The only way they rise to prominence in that society is to be married to a prominent man AND to be willing to be used as a mouthpiece to brainwash other women.

    Both of these women are convinced beyond all reason that they are speaking the truth in love having no idea of their own identities as victims and members of a cult-like belief system. I suspect both ladies are reading here so let me say this. Kelly thank you for the email you sent to me after six years of silence between us. I appreciate your willingness to admit where you were wrong without being prompted to do so. That said you are wrong in this situation with Lourdes. No matter how assertive and confident she is/was, she is still a victim in this situation with Doug. Appearing to be assertive in one area of your life does not mean that you are the same in all areas. I speak from experience here.

    Stacy, you and your husband have always been gracious to Robert and I and I will not forget the long phone conference, that went on for hours, between you and James and Robert and I along with one other person, as we sought to gain better understanding of one another, that said you too are wrong. Please do some research on spiritual abuse and understand this is not an issue about the age of the victim. What Doug is alleged to have done, pursue a young woman with whom he was a spiritual counselor for the purpose of sexual gratification, is against the law in the State of Texas and there is good reason for that. Please let this play out in a court of law and think long and hard about your decision to pronounce this young woman guilty. She was brought into Doug’s life, by Doug, as a minor, remember that. It was his duty to be a spiritual elder to her and nothing more.

    Like

  39. Did Stacy, Kelly and some of the other women commenting on Wilson’s blog actually read the complaint? I don’t know any woman who would consent to be treated the way Phillips treated Lourdes as described in that document. There was no mutuality there; Phillips did nothing to try to please his victim. I suppose if one goes along with Wilson’s view of marital sex as men conquering and colonizing a woman’s body while she is a passive recipient, then there is nothing remarkable about Lourdes being treated as an object.

    I cannot fathom the thinking of people in this patriarchical culture. Anybody I ever heard of, man or woman, who participated in an affair let themselves be carried away by their passions. No affair ever starts with an older male authority figure stealing into a young woman’s room in the middle of the night and frightening her and gratifying himself against her wishes. That people can’t see that she was a victim astonishes me.

    Apparently patriarchy must be preserved at all costs, ie the lives of girls and women.

    Like

  40. I certainly am glad you aren’t judging Lourdes, Barbara. I can’t even begin to imagine what a judgmental post would have said.

    Like

  41. @ThatBadDog:

    1. What a curious sight it is when those who have so endlessly insisted on the subjection of women to a degree that they can barely be regarded as moral free agents now find it impossible to accept that a woman raised and indoctrinated in that very system (and placed under the direct supervision of one of its chief purveyors) could be anything less than 100% free and independent in her own decisions…

    Not so curious. Any six-year-old can understand “What’s Yours is Mine and What’s Mine is MINE!” This just says it with twelve-syllable words of Godspeak.

    Like

  42. @JulieAnne:

    But wait, Grace Alone, babies are born sinners, so how did they get from sinning babies to sinless parents?

    One word: POWER.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

    Like

  43. I understand the concerns of those who are saying that the young woman is not wholly without fault in this situation. I think most people have an aversion to the culture of victimhood” we see around us; people who make poor choice and take no responsibility for their actions because of their circumstances, etc.

    But that said, it’s important to remember that calling someone a victim of abuse (whether physical, mental, spiritual or a combination) does not mean that the person is without any fault whatsoever. The point being made by those concerned about the abuse is simply that the abusers actions were abusive and thus the abuser needs to be held accountable for their choices. That is true no matter whether or not the one who was abused also made wrong choices.

    It isn’t wrong to point out that the victim in this situation may have her own sins to repent of as relates to the situation — but we can trust that if she seeks to follow the Lord, His Spirit will lead her to go to Him for cleansing and forgiveness that might be needed. Any sin she may have committed does not mitigate against or lessen the sins of her abuser, and it is only right to focus attention on the person who was in the position of greater perceived power and authority as the one with the most to give account for.

    Like

  44. “Do you understand the phrase ” Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.” ”

    Ha! So true nmgirl. Just wait. One of these days we’ll hear Ken Ham saying “I should have used words” when another one of his fellow conference speakers is caught in a scandal.

    Like

  45. Tauyna: I could be a perfect homeschool mom too, if I had all of these people coming in and doing ALL of my household chores, grocery shopping, cleaning, cooking etc for me too all in the name of “ministry” (aka for free) like Beall did. 🙂

    “James McDonald went to my Bill Gothard-church in TX and my first impression of him was rich and elitist…and a great fit for the VF’ers…”

    I am surprised by this just because the difference between an fundamentalist independent baptist and reformed Presbyterian are way different. Like Night & day.

    That is strange. I thought he and Stacy scrounged for every buck they tried to make off the movement and their God facade. They are both divorced, right?

    Yes they are both divorced. I have heard from somewhere, many times that the reason they are RP is that they allowed him to be a preacher and ordained. The Baptists denied that.

    Stacy & Kelly are both moms to 10. They are both Presbyterian. Kelly’s family lost their home and everything during the F5 tornadoes in Alabama in 2011. They live near her parents. The Crawfords were good friends with the Lee family. Tom Lee died in the Tornado (remember the fund raising from Doug on that? sigh).

    The Macdonald’s used to live in TX and now live in IL. My encounter with them is when they owned and ran the magazine.

    The thing that angers me about their attitude is that they seem to think “oh well since she didn’t cry fowl at first, then she’s guilty. OR “she knew it was wrong, so she should have just got out and stopped” FIRST of all, young ladies raised in this movement, are “street smart illiterate”. They are not equipped with those “social norms” that most of us that have been out in it have. Secondly, in this movement, girls and all young people are taught to obey the first time, with no questions asked. PERIOD. Thirdly, Doug was basically worshiped by all the young ladies etc around there. It is undoubtedly that Stacy NOR Kelly understand “grooming” techniques. They haven’t a clue about been in such fear as to NOT be able to stop or be “frozen” when you are being abused.

    Another thing that bothers me, is that somehow she (Stacy McDonald) thinks that being Reformed Presbyterian (RP) is the cure to all of Lourdes’ issues, sigh. That their type of government setup is going to keep this from happening. no, no and NO. They are not the first and won’t be the last arrogant RP I have encountered that thinks this. They think it’s the cure to everything. BCA was a Reformed Baptist church but had RP leanings in it. Beall has been known to be abusive (especially with her power) and we know Doug has been and is. They wanted Lourdes to go to THEIR mediator. WHY? because she would have to sign a confidentiality form that says that she will NOT go and seek legal aide or file a suit. It also would have kept her quiet………

    oh…….Yes Bob Sarratt is worthless. He’s was nothing but Doug’s boy toy [mod ed: removed words]. Not Fooled Anymore was right in that Doug controlled everything. When he left out of town, NO decisions in VF, VFM, BCA etc were made. NONE.

    Like

  46. Astonishing comments from some of the homeschool “queens”, but not surprising. Kapos were sometimes observed to be more heartless towards fellow prisoners than German prison guards. I’ve seen great cruelty from cultic rank-and-file towards other rank-and-file, as they try desperately to gain favor from the abusive leaders. It’s human nature.

    Like

  47. If Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald think Doug Phillips is so wonderful and blameless, I suggest they volunteer their daughters to serve him as unpaid, live-in household labor.

    Like

  48. Wow! Katie Botkin is good!
    That link to Natalie Rose’s story goes a long way in explaining where Doug Wilson’s thinking is.

    Like

  49. I am overcome with sadness reading this thread. There are so many untruths here it is impossible to answer them. And deep down, I know answering is fruitless.

    But let me start with this: my comment on Wilson’s article in NO WAY equates with a defense of Doug Phillips. “If I think he’s so wonderful…” (Marian) Ridiculous leaps of assumptions like that make it difficult to apply credibility to anything that is said here.

    And the lies do as well.

    Regarding the Phillips scandal, let me be clear: he is guilty. Guilty of sin, of lust, of adultery, of lying, of cheating and of doing so under the “weightier” responsibility of being a teacher. I have no need or desire to defend him. His guilt doesn’t weaken my beliefs, because my beliefs never hinged on him. I believe only what is in Scripture–nothing more, nothing less. I agreed with Wilson simply that if Lourdes received sexual advances against her wishes, as an adult, she had no reason to not tell anyone.

    The idea that “the system” she was under kept her too fearful is ludicrous. Whatever definition of patriarchy/biblical submission/authority you use, NO teaching encourages one to follow the authority of someone in sin. There is ALWAYS taught the recourse of obeying God above man–any man. I know her family enough to know that she was not bound by fear or some teaching that would inhibit her from seeking help. Her father loved her dearly and would have protected her without question. Someone asked me if it were my daughter…she knows full well exactly what to do if approached in an unwanted way. And if help isn’t immediate enough, she packs a gun and she knows how to use it. We don’t raise cowards, as assumed. To try to use a “teaching” as a defense, especially when that teaching emphasized the protection of women, is as upside down as it can get.

    Which brings me to the allegations about my husband…it’s astonishing that people who don’t know me can so accurately tell what my life is like. I have never known a kinder man than my husband. But not just that: he is a living sacrifice. There is no wielding of authority, only that he feels the weight of being an example of Christ to us, and he does it well.

    I truly don’t understand how I’m supposed to be brainwashed. Even the life choices we’ve made were my idea. When I cried every day at work and wanted to come home, he gladly agreed, even though we couldn’t afford it. He worked extra for a while to allow me to be where I wanted to be.

    When we decided to pray about children, it was my idea–my heart-tugging that didn’t want to miss any of them. So he agreed. He encourages my dreams as a writer (when I want to quit he encourages me not to because he knows it’s my passion), he puts my needs first, always, and without complaint.

    There is no area in which he “rules” over me. Our understanding of the relationship in marriage, as taught in Scripture, says that a husband loves his wife as his very own flesh. The areas where others accuse him of “ruling” are things I have chosen.

    There is so much freedom in my life, my marriage, our relationships, that it literally confounds me to read threads like this, and confirms that the Internet is a wild, unruly place, where slander and lies and misrepresentations have no end. Imagine me, leaving my life where there is laughter, practical jokes, comedy (my husband loves to laugh), peace, joy, (insert normal parenting challenges) children who are happy, ALL pursing exactly what they want, coming here to find my name describing a life that isn’t mine at all. I wish any of you could experience the bizarre feeling.

    I urge those reading to understand that these “sounding board” sites are not perpetuators of what is true, but rather take truth and distort it, leaving a believable, yet dishonest picture.

    We would all do well to be warned that “slanderers” and those who “sow discord among the brethren” are included in the same list as adulterers.

    May God have mercy as he divides the tares from the wheat.

    Like

  50. Wasn’t Jeub only a few days ago saying that consent wasn’t something he knew very much about? iI seems he’s been climbing a steep learning curve, in the right direction and could probably use a few more helpful nudges.

    Like

  51. Ruth – I think anyone who has ever been caught in Patriarchy or the popular ideologies of the Homeschool Movement were in a sense caught into a culture and it takes time to undo all of that stuff. Chris Jeub is challenging himself, making changes, and moving forward. Does it mean he’s where you think he ought to be? Maybe not. I appreciate the changes I’ve seen in him. I appreciate that he’s calling Patriarchy out as wrong. I look forward to more changes. This stuff doesn’t happen overnight. I am a different person than I was 2 years ago.

    Like

  52. Kelly, thanks for stopping by and commenting. I applaud you for reaching out. I’m running short on time with a busy schedule this evening, so I may not get to everything, so I will take bite-size chunks, I hope you don’t mind.

    You mentioned: lies, leaps of assumptions and untruths, yet refuse to identify them saying it would be fruitless. That’s just not an appropriate way of engaging conversation if you are going to open the door and shut it in our faces.

    The idea that “the system” she was under kept her too fearful is ludicrous. Whatever definition of patriarchy/biblical submission/authority you use, NO teaching encourages one to follow the authority of someone in sin. There is ALWAYS taught the recourse of obeying God above man–any man.

    These few sentences reveal much. They show that you do not understand what it is like to be under one who uses a position of authority/trust to control and manipulate. I would never want you to experience spiritual abuse, but I beg of you to research this before you discount the many people here who have been affected by this kind of control.

    Think of Elizabeth Smart. Many times she was walking in public with her captors and she chose not to leave. What was that powerful force that kept her with her evil captors? This is the type of force that spiritual abusers have. Do you blame Elizabeth Smart for not leaving? If not, then please do not put the burden on people who were held captive by their spiritually abusive leaders.

    Like

  53. Kelly,

    I’m not sure why you are defending your marriage. I don’t believe I said anything about your marriage. Where is that coming from? One of my readers? If you are happy in your marriage and your husband is not lording over you, great! I’m truly happy for you.

    Like

  54. Kelly, you come here, sighing deeply, and announce overwhelming sadness over untruths and the impossibility of dealing with them.

    Then you take a humorous and hyperbolic remark, and wrinkling your wisdom-lined brow while sighing even more deeply, you declare every commenter lacking credibility because of it. Then you dedicate a chunk of white space to a carefully flung accusation of lying.

    I commented at Wilson’s and was polite. What is wrong with you?

    Like

  55. I urge those reading to understand that these “sounding board” sites are not perpetuators of what is true, but rather take truth and distort it, leaving a believable, yet dishonest picture.

    Ok, I prefer open and honest communication, not veiled talk. Let me help you out, Kelly. This might be what you meant to say:

    I urge those reading to understand that sites like Spiritual Sounding Board are not perpetuators of what is true, but rather take truth and distort it, leaving a believable, yet dishonest picture.

    One of the things I talk about over and over again is to test what I or anybody say is true. One thing you will find here, Kelly, is people who do not take one person’s word as “gospel.” We’ve been burned too badly to do that.

    We would all do well to be warned that “slanderers” and those who “sow discord among the brethren” are included in the same list as adulterers.

    I think this is Kelly warning me that I’m a slanderer and me slandering is just as evil as adultery. Thanks, Kelly. I’m very familiar with that passage of scripture. I was sued by a pastor who bullied me by using that verse and many others just like it.

    But once again, if there’s slander and lying, then put it on the table, please, Kelly. Don’t dance around it. Just let’s deal with it publicly.

    May God have mercy as he divides the tares from the wheat.

    In other words: one of us is the “tare” and the other is the “wheat.” Eenie, meenie, money, moe! That’s not a nice way to communicate, Kelly.

    Like

  56. I fear Kelly may be reacting to some statements made by me. Kelly, patriarchy is a system that states that a husband has headship over his wife. He is her leader, they are not equal partners, that is the basis for my comments. Are some women happy with that, perhaps but that does not change the fact that they are dominated by their husbands. If you are not able to have the final word on your own destiny in a marriage you are dominated. In patriarchy marriages if there is a difference of opinion it is the husband who decides. A wife must submit/obey to her husband in all things. You may not consider that domination Kelly, but that is what it is.

    You say your home is filled with laughter and love and everyone is happy, well good for you but in my years of living inside this movement I saw MANY wives, daughters and sons who were completely miserable and I am happy to see so many beginning to see this stuff for the unbiblical cult it is. I know this must be heartbreaking to you especially with people like Mike Farris now speaking out against the patriarchy lifestyle but that is no reason to call us liars. We are not liars we are simply individuals with opinions, just like you, and we have the right to share them just like you shared yours on Doug Wilson’s site.

    You believe Lourdes is not a victim and I believe women and girls in patriarchy are dominated by the men in their lives, I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree.

    Like

  57. Kelly, you wrote: “The idea that ‘the system’ she was under kept her too fearful is ludicrous.” It is ludicrous to you because you don’t know what it is like to live your whole life under the total authority of someone as narcissistic as Doug Phillips, who you agree is guilty of all kinds of relational sins.

    You write that you have a lovely husband and that’s wonderful, and it further shows your genuine ignorance of what it is like to live with/under under authoritarian jerks. Thank God you have no idea what that would be like! Truly! I have experienced awfulness from two such men, and do not wish it on anyone. I know what it is like to be silenced by being beaten down too many times. But you pronounce sin on this poor woman even though you have no idea. Why do you feel the need to do that?

    Then you round up your comment with a florid condemnation of this blog: distort truth, dishonest, slanderers, sow discord, same as adulterers, tares, lies. What discourtesy from a Christian lady who lives a lovely gentle life! Why would you do this?

    If people got some stuff wrong about you, why not just come here and correct it? It’s so strange to track down a bunch of people and spew at them about spewing at you, as you seem to think.

    Like

  58. So here are my observations with the Queen Bee types. I’ve never met Kelly or Stacy, but this is what I’ve seen for years in the movement. For some reason certain people get elevated to “leader” or get an unofficial stamp of approval within the Patriarchal ranks and they are the ones chosen to represent godly motherhood, wifehood at the homeschool conferences. What did they do to pass the test? I don’t know. Maybe it was a personal connection with some higher up at a homeschool conference, or maybe they did all the right things (read: outward appearances). But for some reason, their words have and are adopted as the right message for us ladies within the Homeschool Movement.

    As I’ve been covering the Phillips story, I was struck that Beall didn’t fit the homeschool mom mold that I’m familiar with. She dressed nicely, got her hair/nails done. She lived in a 7,000 ft home and had nannies over the years. Above, we read about Jennie on her 11th child with all kinds of hired help. Then there are the Duggars with their amazing home and their tv show. The reality of these ladies does not reflect the reality of my homeschooling mom friends.

    Some of the most vocal voices in Patriarchy that tell women to submit to the priest of the home (husbands), allow God to control the amount of children coming from our womb, do not live in the reality that so many of us live. It makes me wonder if they would be so vocal if they lived in our homes, had our incomes, were unrecognizable in our homeschool community, etc.

    Like

  59. Kelly –

    The bulk of the article is your and Stacy’s own words. I don’t recall anyone making personal comments about your husband. Why the accusations? Have you read the comments?

    Like

  60. Taunya, I’m not sure who in particular Kelly is reacting to, but it doesn’t really matter. Every person here has a voice and is entitled to share it, including Kelly. I’m very grateful for your opinion you’ve shared here. I have had e-mails from people who were moved by your words months ago. While your family may have suffered, your words have helped other families to make positive decisions be free from these extra-biblical teachings. Thank you, Taunya.

    Like

  61. Kelly,

    My problem with communicating with women still inside the Patriarchy movement is that I never really know who I am communicating with. The tenants of the movement lead me to believe women in it are not independent or critical thinkers and are only parroting what some man has told them is truth. And the movement teaches that women are easily deceived and I fear many women actually believe it as if the cross were not enough for them. They are taught to interpret scripture a certain way as taught to them by men. No Holy Spirit needed because the male acts as mediator.

    And yes, I am well aware of what Patriarchy really teaches.

    All of this is a huge problem for women in that movement who try to communicate outside the Patriarchal bubble. There is a credibility issue.

    Like

  62. “The idea that “the system” she was under kept her too fearful is ludicrous. Whatever definition of patriarchy/biblical submission/authority you use, NO teaching encourages one to follow the authority of someone in sin.”

    It is not “ludicrous” to the many women and children who have suffered abuse under this “system.” You have just virtually spit in the faces of the girls and young women I know that were raped by their own fathers and brothers.

    Your husband treats you well. Good for you. So does mine. That does not negate the awful experiences that others have had. And let’s not forget that in Texas, where Doug Phillip’s hanky-panky took place, even the law calls it criminal for a member of the clergy to engage in this type of behavior with someone in the congregation.

    Like

  63. JA, this isn’t my belief system and never was, but yes, I agree that Jeub seems to be inching along in the right direction, but it will be a long process. Rome wasn’t built in a day, ahem.

    As for the comment above about how the theology or whatever they call it always puts obeying God ahead of obeying man, gosh, again this isn’t my belief system, and I’ll defer to the experts who survived this, but a couple of observations based on reading all this for a while. Isn’t a central tenet of this belief system that a strong, dominant, authoritative husband/father/pastor (all of which the Complaint and Affidavit allege Phillips asserted over Ms. Torres-Manteufel in some form or another) stands as the intermediary between a weak, helpmeet woman and God? Further, if a woman is a SAHD, she has no job skills beyond her community, minimal education, no notion of boundaries and defying a man with spiritual authority over her places her very soul in jeopardy. Further, she has been taught that she has no value other than her ability to give the most precious thing she has — her sexual purity/virginity — to her husband, be the fallow, passive field for his conquering seed, and educate the next gen of soldiers. If this SAHD is sexually abused, what value does she have? (Remember too that in this modesty/purity culture, it is always assumed that it is her fault for causing her brother to stumble. The man is assumed to have little control and his sexual urges are excused). The abused SAHD becomes used goods, chewed gum, in this belief system right? By first grooming and then sexually abusing her, Phillips (allegedly) deliberately, repeatedly destroyed the only value the community permitted Ms. Torres-Manteufel to have. This is a truly horrible cycle of abuse and JA, the citation to Elizabeth Smart is truly apt.

    Like

  64. Do you notice how Stacy ‘ s first comment is much softer than the second. She tries to excuse her way of thought and play somewhat nice and then the true colors and nails come out. These women are becoming desperate and are afraid of losing a system that they have come to embrace. If they admit that something their leaders say is wrong, then they would have to admit they are being duped. They are waving a flag to any woman that might be questioning patriarchy and making sure they stay on the bandwagon. If they shout loud enough they may be able to gather the troops back. The whole thing reeks of desperation and a loss of control. Maybe they should just give it up to the Lord and let Him decide.

    Like

  65. Earlier today, I explained the concept of Bounded Choice to a reporter. Those who are not raised in a high demand setting don’t realize all of the internal resources, experience and encouragement that that they take for granted — things that are never afforded to people who grew up with blanket training and other types of high control environments. When all major decisions are governed by parents and are submitted for their approval, young people fail to develop the experience and full ability to discern matters for themselves. Under extreme stress, they tend to freeze like a deer in the headlights — which is actually an adaptive response that helps them survive trauma.

    But though it seems like they have choices that they can make and should be able to exercise some autonomy, they can’t. Autonomy in many Calvinist circles is seen as a filthy word describing sin. They don’t have the liberty or the where with all to act on their own behalf. From the outside of the system, those looking into it assume wrongly that a “second generation adult” (SGA — a person raised in a high demand religion) has the same set of skills, instincts and resources to free themselves that they would have. First generation adults — those who have “good enough” backgrounds also take for granted their own skills and abilities as well. They are grossly lacking in SGAs. There is also the issue of the effect of habituation in an abusive relationshp that Patrick Carnes describes so well in the Betrayal Bond. People lose perspective and believe they are powerless. SGAs suffer from lack of self-care, soul crushing perfectionism, lack of appropriate interpersonal boundaries, and their normal level of living is bathed in extremism. They often develop what is termed as “learned helplessness.”

    That is apart from the consequences of rebellion against the will of one’s parents (that God is taught to punish for exiting the umbrella of protective authority) and that by losing a parent’s favor, one might actually lose their own soul in the process by failing in their submission. They may have choices, but they have no ability to seize them. They are unthinkable options that never occur to the SGA until the point at which their survival depends on it. Even then, they need the help and encouragement of those who can work with them to help them recover what they lost in terms of their growth and development.

    http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-betrayal-bonds-exploit-trust-and.html

    Within adult relationships, research demonstrates the following compulsive relationship patterns in those who have suffered trauma. They manifest as are used by those who have suffered trauma in the same way that an addict uses a chemical substance or behavior to avoid negative feelings, negative circumstances, and rejection (Carnes on pages 125-127; West & Sheldon in Classification of Pathological Attachment Patterns in Adults; Sable in Disorders of Adult Attachment).

    Relationship Patterns of Victims in Response to Those who Exploit Power
    Compulsive Helplessness
    Compulsive Focus on the Abuser (Involves caretaking and enmeshment)
    Compulsive Self-Reliance
    Compulsive Caregiving
    Compulsive Care-Seeking
    Compulsive Rejection
    Compulsive Compliance
    Compulsive Identification with Others
    Compulsive Reality Distortion (Denial of abuse and wishful thinking)
    Compulsive Abuse Seeking (In other relationship or through self-destructive behavior)

    Like

  66. This describes bounded choice in greater detail with much more via the link:

    http://undermoregrace.blogspot.com/2009/03/bounded-choice-as-another-component-of.html

    I once heard a story about an elephant that spent its life tethered to a stake that was driven deeply into the ground. He spent his whole life living only within the radius allowed by the tether. One day, the tether breaks, but the elephant never ventures out beyond that which he has always known, even though he is no longer physically restricted. He stays within the familiar and never ventures out beyond the well-worn path, the radius of that which the elephant has always known. It’s really quite a sad story.

    The concept of bounded choice parallels that of the story of the elephant. Though no physical restraints exist, people who believe that they have no choice find that forces more powerful than physical ones keep them bound to a predictable number of options. In “Take Back Your Life,” what I consider the definitive guide to personal recovery from group manipulation, Janja Lalich describes what bounded choice looks like for those within a group.

    From page 50:
    In other words, neither the charismatic leader nor others in the group need to be present to tell a follower what to do; rather, having internalized the lessons and adapted her outlook, the loyal and true believer knows precisely what she needs to do to stay in the good graces of the all-knowing and all powerful leader. The true believer need only ‘imagine’ what actions to take, knowing full well that she will act within the bounds of the cult reality, for in a sense her self has merged with the leader and the group.
    What other reality is there? The one thing the devoted adherents cannot imagine is life outside the group. In other words, the cult member is constrained by both external (real or imagined) and internal sanctions. At this point, whatever choices remain are “bounded” ones. They are choices, yes, but not free ones. They are choices of life or death — figuratively, and, in some cases, literally.

    Once an individual becomes a part of a closed, totalistic system, several factors work to keep them entrenched in that system, powerfully tethered to the predictable radius that is acceptable to the group. Members appear to have a wealth of options, but often, the group dynamics and the withholding of information and knowledge drastically limit rational choice. Because of distorted and absent boundaries, personal choice actually become organizational choice which constrains the member to a predetermined set of “givens.” Though it is true that all people do not possess an unlimited number of possibilities, the structure of totalistic groups confines them even further.

    Janja Lalich expands upon this concept to describe the comprehensive factors that bind an individual within a totalistic group, identifying four “interlocking and interactional dimensions of the social structure” that creates a “bounded reality and contribute to a state of personal closure for the individual participant” (pg 261).

    Like

  67. “The whole thing reeks of desperation and a loss of control.”

    Part of the desperation: If it could happen to Beal Phillips, it could happen to them who are in the same movement that elevates men and gives them total power.

    But why are they surprised when men are so elevated and the women and children are to revere them….that men start to see themselves that way? Entitled. If they buy into Patriarchy’s view of marital sex, then women are mere objects. And that view of women and the entitlement mentality that goes with their gender is not a good mix over the long term.

    It is one reason I became so alarmed when I heard Voddie (years ago) say that men need the attention of younger women and that is why God gave them daughters. There really is that mentality in Patriarchy.

    Like

  68. The lies I was referring to, about me, were in the comments, mostly from Taunya. Examples:

    “These women are brainwashed”

    “I think these women are so arrogant and out of touch and believe it could never happen to their daughters.”

    “completely dominated by their husbands”

    “convinced that they are second class citizens in the eyes of the Lord
    No, not at all.”

    “We should not be so quick to assume that the image of the “perfect homeschool queen bee” that they project for the world is what their lives are truly like.”

    I think the biggest problem here, is that people who do not even know me, are classifying me as “belonging to a group/movement.” I don’t. I am a Christian, who believes in the inspired Word of God, and my family lives it out as humbly as we know how.

    So when I come here, and read these preconceived ideas about who I am supposed to be, and doesn’t match my real life, I’m utterly confused.

    You expect gentleness from me, but not from anyone else. I’m allowed to have a righteous indignation when I come across such defamatory statements by professing Christians.

    And you’re right. I don’t know what it’s like, at all, to suffer spiritual abuse. The instructions God gives us from Scripture doesn’t allow for that, if we are obeying Him.

    But I am not unfamiliar with abuse. Before I married, my family housed abused children–my whole life. I know some things. I’m a normal, loving, compassionate person, I don’t live in a bubble (another lie), and I would appreciate being treated like a person.

    Like

  69. “Under extreme stress, they tend to freeze like a deer in the headlights — which is actually an adaptive response that helps them survive trauma.”

    Cindy, this is why I think it so cruel that Lourdes is being admonished by those in Patriarchy. She was surviving after being groomed for years!. She had no real world skills thanks to that movement.

    Like

  70. Patriarchy is bad, not your family Kelly. We just want the truth about scriptural misinterpretations to be brought out. The Truth is that Wilson believes things about males and females that are untrue and in the right conditions go terribly wrong. If you have a loving, selfless male leader then there is no need to be afraid of abuse. But, unfortunately, men are sinners just like everyone else and some sins have more of a traumatic effect on women than others. The culture of male domination and looking down upon a wife’s testimony against him is not biblical. A wife should be able to tell her pastors about abuse and have them go directly to the authorities and help her. Unfortunately, I have heard of way too many instances where this does not happen. When I was a child, someone found out about the abuse in my home and went to the pastor. He then went to my parents and, of course they denied it. That was more traumatizing than the abuse itself. I had no one who valued me enough to help. We just want the church to be accountable and transparent.

    Like

  71. ‘And you’re right. I don’t know what it’s like, at all, to suffer spiritual abuse. The instructions God gives us from Scripture doesn’t allow for that, if we are obeying Him. ”

    Excuse me? Please explain.

    Like

  72. That statement made my blood ran cold. I hope that you are not saying that victims of spiritual abuse brought it on themselves, Kelly.

    Like

  73. “Excuse me? Please explain.”

    I’d like to know, too. According to attorney Greg Love, “Abusers go where protection barrier is the lowest. Where is the protection barrier the lowest? Church.”
    I think far too many are ignorant of how prevalent abuse is in the church.

    Like

  74. “That statement made my blood ran cold. ”

    Mine too because I have heard it from quite a few people involved in perpetuating spiritual abuse.

    Like

  75. Kelly I have addressed my response to you in an email and it stands. In your most recent email to me you said this:

    “You cannot possibly imagine what it is like to stumble upon a conversation like I did today, and hardly recognize who they are talking about, but see your name being used. And now I see they are asking me to specifically list the untruths (which I will happily do if I get the time), tsking me for “not nice” conversation, but no one else gets the slap on the wrist for outright defaming my character? Can’t you see what kind of people you’re running with now? The evidence, the fruit, is so clear.”

    The “kind of people I am running with” here on this blog are people that are as concerned as I am about the teachings of patriarchy and about the victimization of Lourdes Torres and many like her in this movement. You claim that we don’t know what you believe but you have been putting your beliefs out for the public to see on your blog for years and years, often arguing with anyone who disagrees. It is very easy to see what you believe. In this post we are discussing the fact that you believe Mrs. Lourdes Manteufel is not a victim of Doug’s but a grown women who willingly entered an affair. We are discussing it because you chose to put it on Doug Wilson’s blog for all to read.

    As for the rest of what I said that is my opinion of women caught up in this movement. I am entitled to my opinions, they are not lies they are what I believe. Any woman who must obey her husband is, in my opinion, being dominated, even if she enjoys the domination, even if she claims happiness. I believe the people in patriarchy men, women and children have been brainwashed to believe it is God’s desire for them to live as they do. They have been brainwashed to believe patriarchy is biblical Christianity, it is not! I also believe that any woman who believes she must view her husband as her “head” believes she is a second-class citizen in the eyes of the Lord. These are not lies Kelly they are what I believe. Should I call you a liar because of what you sincerely believe? I am entitled to my opinion and you don’t get to deem me a liar just because you disagree. I did not deem you a liar because of what you said about Lourdes, even though I don’t agree.

    Like

  76. And you’re right. I don’t know what it’s like, at all, to suffer spiritual abuse. The instructions God gives us from Scripture doesn’t allow for that, if we are obeying Him. ”

    Sorry, I can see where that might be read wrong. What I mean is that when men are obeying God’s Word, there cannot be abuse, because he is “laying down his life” and imitating Christ.

    Like

  77. Of course, abuse happens. But that’s only when men do NOT obey God’s Word. My point is that I don’t know, in my family, about abuse, because we don’t follow a system, we follow God’s Word and my husband is faithful to obey it.

    Does that make better sense?

    Like

  78. Taunya,

    So, you’re saying you disagree with this:

    “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

    Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.”

    Because if you do, we have nothing further to discuss.

    It’s one thing for you to say you believe a man dominating a woman is wrong. It’s quite another for you to say, “Kelly is brainwashed and dominated by her husband, and thinks she is second class.”

    Those are lies.

    Like

  79. “Of course, abuse happens. But that’s only when men do NOT obey God’s Word. My point is that I don’t know, in my family, about abuse, because we don’t follow a system, we follow God’s Word and my husband is faithful to obey it.”

    Good for your husband. I believe my husband is repulsed at the very thought of abuse. Heaven help the person who might ever mess with one of our kids. That said, 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused by the time they’re 18. That includes children in church where people supposedly are “obeying God’s word.” This is reality.

    Like

  80. Sorry Kelly, I see men and women as FULL co heirs in Christ. I do not read Eph (and other proof texts) as woodenly as you do. I consider the historical context. And that brings us to the problem of “obeying Gods Word”. Whose interpretation? Mine, Doug Wilsons? Calvins? Wesleys? I prefer being led by the Holy Spirit.

    It would never occur to me that avoiding abuse is strictly in the power of the very men who are elevated in Patriarchy. That seems to have been the problem in Phillips’ household.

    Like

  81. “So, you’re saying you disagree with this:”

    Kelly you are too typical! You left out verse 21. And just for grins go all the way back up to verse 18 which references the Spirit. Then do a word study on how the original audience would have understood Kephale in the 1st Century.

    Like

  82. BTDT,

    “That said, 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused by the time they’re 18. That includes children in church where people supposedly are “obeying God’s word.” This is reality.”

    “Supposedly.” That’s altogether different. My point is not being heard, I’m afraid.

    And by the way, I was abused as a child, not by an adult, but by an older boy in our church. I have enormous sympathy for those who are abused.

    Like

  83. I believe patriarchy teaches the domination of women and that women and men who believe in patriarchy as outlined by Vision Forum, NCFIC, Swanson, Baucham, Botkin, Phillips are brainwashed. I also believe that the movement teaches that women are second class citizens in the eyes of the Lord.

    The verses you outlined are in my opinion used by patriarchy in a wrong manner in order to justify beliefs that like Mike Farris said earlier this week are extra-biblical.

    Like

  84. And Kelly, I know enough about Patriarchy as I have heard it taught that a husband “sanctifies his wife” taking a metaphor to blasphemous heights. As if he IS Jesus to her.

    Like

  85. Richard Guenther once said to me that he would not have every believed in a million years that such terrible things could happen to him at the hands of Christians. He had to be run through to believe that those he believed in and trusted could do so much harm to him. I told him that this is actually a typical experience in spiritual abuse. Spiritually abusive systems exploit the trust that they have in their leader, and they will fall on a sword out of genuine love for God, their leader and the group. It is not until the either they themselves or someone close to them suffers something crushing or devastating that they will even consider the idea that the system is desperately flawed. It takes the very good in a person — their highest and best — and uses it against them. Most people have to be given tremendous reason to entertain their natural doubts. Some never do.

    While I am grateful that some are spared the horrible experience of watching their leader betray them and those they love (a subject I’ve written about here in a guest post), I’m sad to say that many will never consider the true nature of the destructiveness of the system apart from great harm.

    Like

  86. “And I didn’t leave any verse out in particular, on purpose. I’m in a hurry. Please don’t condescend.”

    Leaving out “submit to one another” is pretty telling.

    Like

  87. ““Supposedly.” That’s altogether different. My point is not being heard, I’m afraid.”

    No, not “supposedly.” “Statistically.” And it certainly applies to an ideology that says women are to submit to men and children must obey. In a fantasy world this sounds just dandy. In the real world? Not so much.

    Like

  88. @Lydia yes as if he is Jesus to her prophet, priest and king! That is what they have lowered these verses to and that makes women second class citizens in the eyes of the Lord. No longer having a direct line to Jesus but going through their husband as their priest. Any woman who believes this is deceived, in bondage and yes brainwashed. That is not biblical Christianity!

    Like

  89. Lydia,

    I googled the verse….grabbed the bulk of it, and did NOT leave out “submit to one another.” That in no way negates what I did copy. Geesh, already. I didn’t even see that verse when I was copying.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s