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Lourdes Torres, alleged victim in sex abuse scandal with Douglas Phillips of Vision Forum, has filed a lawsuit against Douglas Phillips
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The victim in the Doug Phillips sex abuse case has filed a lawsuit and in doing so, has chosen to publicly reveal her identity: Lourdes Torres. She is one brave woman. Go, Lourdes!
UPDATE April 16, 2014. At the end of this post, we’ve added key facts and links to select news reports and blog articles. We plan to continue to grow these lists as opportunity allows.
World Net Daily has the full story and it is a long one with photos and lots of details. In the first link below is the legal complaint:
In the complaint filed in Kendall County District Court in Texas Tuesday morning, Phillips is accused of using a woman named Lourdes Torres, now 29, as “a personal sex object” over a period of five years.
I was alerted on Sunday of another development – that Lourdes Torres (aka Victim) was married Friday evening to a former Boerne Christian Assembly member, Nolan Manteufel.
We first got a glimpse that something was up with this Facebook profile picture which was updated over the weekend:
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The lawsuit gets into graphic detail.
***********Trigger alert – Sexual Content************
Here are graphic details in the complaint. Phillips claimed he didn’t know her Biblically. The following paragraph shows that he knew her pretty darn well. Scroll down to the line of asterisks to get beyond the graphic part.
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My thoughts and prayers go to the Manteufels as they start their new life together and also as their private life will become very public. This is a very sad situation for all.
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UPDATE: I had someone ask where they can send support or gift cards. I would be happy to try to organize this. Nolan or Lourdes or David Gibbs, if you are reading this and can contact me, I think there may be a lot of people who would like to offer support in a more tangible way. ~Julie Anne (spiritualsb@gmail dot com)
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Links on the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel Lawsuit
Against Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, Inc., & Vision Forum Ministries
NOTE: This section has been moved to its own post.
NOTE: The extensive information that was on this page has been transferred to it’s own post. You will find it at Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips Lawsuit Informational Resource Page. That post already expands what was previously here by at least a third, and will be updated daily for at least the next 7 to 10 days. It includes the following sections:
- Preface
- Key Facts
- Official Court Documents and Other Statements
- Plaintiff, Defendants, and Their Legal Counsels
- Key Individuals in the Unfolding Story
- Relevant Background Issues
- Select Links to News Reports and Blog Posts
- Historical Overview Posts
- Potentially Relevant Legal Information
- Other Research and Resource Pieces
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Lydia
But I have a polish uncle who taught me everything i know…
And I have a built in dis-ability and excuse… 😉
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BTW – I was recently made aware that the Vision Forum Facebook page which released the public statement from Doug Phillips is NOT the Vision Forum ministry page, but the for-profit page that Doug Phillips owns. That explains a LOT.
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@Wendell G:
You missed “D. This man (Phillips) likes to use the title to pull rank.”
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For the most part, I stopped reading WND. I used to subscribe to them, but I noticed that they increasingly attract the black helicopter crowd and those who are way too conservative, not only politically but theologically. So I am not surprised that the comments on the story would be nasty.
I’ve also found that many of their stories, especially insider stories are hyperbolic and use questionable “facts”. I am not saying they engaged in that in this case, but they have gotten worse over the last few years
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thank you @julie Anne. Yes, this DOES explain a TON
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I agree with you JA re Michael Farris. Someone else said it best “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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@BradFuturistGuy:
Since in the States “Esq” is a formal title for a lawyer, my guess is that he states his name that way on the cover sheet as a formality. Law is a profession of exact definitions and minimal ambiguity (Legalese is a technical language where every word has one and only one precisely-defined meaning to minimize ambiguity), so it would be important to follow all the established traditions and formalities.
Gibbs Esq is following the traditions and formalities of his profession, and does not overuse the title. Douggie ESQUIRE overuses the title to impress and pull rank on others; it’s no coincidence that he cosplays personae of Power and Authority (18th Century nobleman, General Patton, etc).
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I think the Vision Forum Ministries and Vision Forum business entities are going to be a confusing aspect of this case. I’ll do my best to make that distinction clear, but it would be good to keep that in mind as you are reading articles around the internet.
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Oh wow. Brad has done his magic. Please, folks, if you haven’t taken a look at the article recently, do take a look and see all the resources and important information Brad has put together (and he definitely makes the distinction between business and ministry groups!). Brad is da bomb-diggity when it comes to compiling info and presenting it in a clear way.
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@Carmen:
Maybe not a megalomaniac per se, but more like a characteristic of someone too full of himself in general.
We used to have this one fanboy in local SF fandom who was known behind his back as “He Who Cannot Stop Talking About Himself 24/7” or “The Noise”. (His name was actually morphed into a verb meaning “to be cornered by a motormouth”.) Guy was more of a laughingstock and general nuisance than anything else; he was later found to have actual mental problems.
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Julie Anne
APRIL 17, 2014 @ 9:25 AM
BTW – I was recently made aware that the Vision Forum Facebook page which released the public statement from Doug Phillips is NOT the Vision Forum ministry page, but the for-profit page that Doug Phillips owns. That explains a LOT.
Told ya! I knew he was the man “behind the curtain!”
BTW: Voddie & his family have distanced themselves for several years from Doug & VF. Even more so now……….like completely different. Voddie isn’t even preaching the same things and saying the same things anymore……..
If you think Beall only sent that one email to try to hush up Lourdes, think again……she has learned from the best! She knew she was losing that gravy train. My I don’t see anything wrong with having constant people in your home doing ‘ministry’ work by cleaning your home, doing laundry, doing grocery shopping, cooking etc. ALL for free…….sigh. ::rolls eyes::
Notice in the local article that Doug claims that they “are broke?” now. Well if they were THAT broke, they wouldn’t be living in just as big of a house as they did before and they were all 10 at Darby Sproul’s wedding in FL the end of March. Doesn’t sound broke to me!
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Point: DP’s attny. claims that Mrs.M is attempting (by herself) to ruin DP. Didn’t Duggie claim recently that a certain trio of men were doing that.. and threatened them with a lawsuit ?
AND the other odd thing… DP wrote : “Some reading the words of my resignation have questioned if there was an inappropriate physical component with an unmarried woman. There was, and it was intermittent over a period of years.”
Yet His attny. writes- “they never had the physical intimacy of touching”. WHOOPS ! Perhaps his attny. should study the basic information prior to court.
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“DP wrote : “Some reading the words of my resignation have questioned if there was an inappropriate physical component with an unmarried woman. There was, and it was intermittent over a period of years.”
Yet His attny. writes- “they never had the physical intimacy of touching”. WHOOPS !”
🙂 I hope Mr. Gibbs caught that.
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I have said for several years now that when Doug’s lips are moving, he’s lying! If he doesn’t lose this case base on facts & testimony of Lourdes, he will end up purging himself………Almost ALL of his blog posts were filled with lying, exaggerating etc….He’s worse than a politician/used car salesman!
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Hey, that’s totally unfair to politicians and used car salesmen. .. 🙂
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@NoWoolOverTheEyes:
Remember OJ Simpson? The instant he got smacked with over $3 million in Weregild, suddenly he was completely penniless?
And Rizzo, the “Evil Hobbit” just sentenced for embezzling million$ (counting $queeze paid through the city) through his position as City Manager of Bell, CA? Could pay $150 grand a year to his bail bondsman and an unknown amount to his attorneys but at the instant of the conviction became completely indigent and penniless?
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oh I know Doug has money squandered……..he was very smart…….evil smart but very smart………I know that Lourdes & her lawyer know that 🙂
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Brad @ http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/ Awesome job compiling all of THAT!
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HUG @ 9:33 AM. Yup. And it seems Mr. Phillips totally overuses the title in ways that would seem magnetic-attractive to some and magno-repulsive to others.
Pam @ 11:15 AM — thanks. If all readers do what bits and pieces we can, it contributes to more comprehensive support. This just happens to be one thing I’ve become pretty good at, having done at least three of these archive set-ups in the last few years plus a couple of extended analysis articles on a few more. It’s one way I can help work toward Church-insider critiques of toxic theologies and malignant ministers so that fewer people inside and outside the Church will be harmed by them in the future.
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The year that all of this was hitting the fan, 2013, there were a LOT of international trips aka Hazardous Journeys Society. I wonder if there may be foreign investments/accounts with VF/DP $$
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“For the most part, I stopped reading WND. I used to subscribe to them, but I noticed that they increasingly attract the black helicopter crowd and those who are way too conservative, not only politically but theologically. So I am not surprised that the comments on the story would be nasty.”
Wendall, I found it very interesting they chose to give WND the “scoop” to be first. I thought it brilliant,.
To clarify, I feel about WND pretty much the same as you but I welcome all sorts of news sites left/right, etc, as I am old enough to remember when you only knew what Dan Rather and your local Daily decided you should know. I like the “free for all” chaos because you can sift through all perspectives and agendas on issues.
Why do I think it brill? Because it would get out to the DP patriarchal movement types quicker as WND is their type of place……. which had to hurt a bit. To add to the color, the leftie Christians are in a bit of a pickle because it IS WND and “no self respecting person can believe anything from that place”.
I am, of course, speaking in generalities. But, the irony has been amusing to me on many fronts.
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“{BTW: Voddie & his family have distanced themselves for several years from Doug & VF. Even more so now……….like completely different. Voddie isn’t even preaching the same things and saying the same things anymore……..”
That creepy vid he made years ago about fathers needing attention from a younger woman so their daughters fit that bill made the rounds so much that he had best make a public announcement that he totally repudiates all his prior teaching on Patriarchy. This is a guy that said on CNN that Sarah Palin should stay home and serve her family. There is too much Voddie in books, sermons online, News Media, etc for him to think he can change it now without some sort of public announcement to that effect.
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Voddie Baucham is probably not too happy about his name being mentioned in the legal complaint.
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I agree, Lydia. WND is not wrong all the time and I do appreciate a conservative approach. I just have had to take to independently researching much of what they report and I just don’t have the time. I don’t discount everything they say. I just got tired of them cluttering my inbox with junk.
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“Voddie Baucham is probably not too happy about his name being mentioned in the legal complaint.”
I wondered about that. Nothing like being mentioned as an example of “Doug Phillips” Patriarchal style teaching to stop the conference speaking gig offers that make up a hefty portion of their income.
The principle I would love to see as a take away from all this: Assume that a leader who is authoritarian, insullated with hangers on yes men is corrupt. Connect the dots of the teaching and their situation to real life. They DON’T live in the real world so what can they teach you?. If you want to know the real character of a person don’t send adversity. Give them power and watch closely. You will have to because so much is hidden for a long time.
I know a few minor mega celebs still making bank off Jesus on the circuit who are deceitful liars presenting the public persona that people think is the “real thing”. People don’t stop to realize they can’t get close enough to know better.
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This is completely off topic, but could you all just take a moment to pray for my mom? She just called me all upset and in tears. Her doctor called her a little while ago and said she’s got uterine cancer.
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WFTT2 … difficult news … praying …
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Absolutely, WFTT. I’m so sorry to hear this. Praying for you all as you deal with this yucky news. 😦
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She has an appointment Wednesday with a gynocology oncologist at Mercy Hospital. I told her I went online to ask all my friends to pray for her.
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Jesus told us he used parables so that believers would understand his messages. He also taught that we would know people by their fruit. If one thinks about it, fruit trees take quite a long time to grow, mature and eventually produce fruit. I joke with my kids that I’ve never seen an apple tree produce oranges and they get it. I hope people deceived by this man will as well.
A man who literally spent years living perversely, deeply hurting someone who looked up to him which somehow apparently sexually aroused him, lied to his wife and children hundreds of times as to where he was and what he was doing over many years, did produce the fruit of his spiritual father, for we know that this fruit comes from the devil.
How many people sought after Judas to “restore” him after it was apparent he was of the devil? Correct, zero, not even Jesus.
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Ouch! And ouch again!
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“Phillips said his beliefs are now under assault, since he is part of a larger, national homeschooling movement.
It was in his homeschooling environment where Phillips first met Torres-Manteufel and her family.”
How disingenuous of him. I hope Mr. Gibbs pounds on that ‘total institution’ thing to make it crystal clear that homeschooling per se is not the issue, but the cult-like teachings that are designed to make all women in this subculture 100% dependent on men their entire lives.
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@Eagle
Can’t help thinking back on the late Michael Spencer’s piece titled The coming Evangelical collapse. He stated that the Evangelical obsession with the culture war and political conservatism will eventually prove to its undoing. Doug Phillips was at the forefront of the culture war, and I think the demise of his ministry is just a forerunner to many dominoes to fall as Evangelicalism collapses like a house of cards.
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“But it is interesting to note that I haven’t seen “Esq.” anywhere for Mr. Gibbs outside of the cover sheet for the petition. Hmm … maybe a Texas state requirement so to sign on the cover-sheet line?”
As I was looking at this I thought just maybe, Mr Gibbs added that title a little tongue in cheek.
Jim
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JA said “I was recently made aware that the Vision Forum Facebook page which released the public statement from Doug Phillips is NOT the Vision Forum ministry page, but the for-profit page that Doug Phillips owns. That explains a LOT.”
Yes indeed it does explain a lot.
I put a comment on that page early on, when comments were still being published visibly. It stayed up for at least an hour (I didn’t check after that). Maybe that’s an advantage of me being in Oz and having the time difference. Ha!
My comment read pretty much like this:
“Doug Phillips and Vision Forum: Tell the truth. Only the truth will set you free. And stop blaming the victim.”
So if DP owns that page, he probably read it. Not that it would have made any difference to him: if he had any vestigial conscience to begin with, years ago, it appears to now be totally seared.
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Jim – – That’s an interesting thought. I mean, after all, think about the irony of sending Phillips the legal complaint on the anniversary date of the sinking of the Titanic. I think you may be onto something.
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Barb, if he’s anything like CON, your comment just gave him a pat on the back and acknowledged him. Leaders like him like attention, both negative and positive.
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Thanks, Brad, for all of the great detail! You are a timeline master.
This bit of info. stuck out at me re: April 14: “Lawsuit claims religious leader promised to marry young woman after wife dies.”
Apparently Mrs. Phillips was sickly and on the verge of dying? Or was it just a case of Mr. Phillips lying to his wife and being deceptive to a young woman? Either way, he sounds like such a Godly father/husband figure.
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FYI: Brad’s been busy putting the timeline together to be in a new blog article, appropriately titled, so we can refer back to it more easily. It will be updated as we get more info.
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“Voddie Baucham is probably not too happy about his name being mentioned in the legal complaint.”
Nope and he’s usually posting different articles for discussion on his ministry page but this one didn’t appear there………hmmmmmmmmm
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https://www.facebook.com/nolan.manteufel?fref=ts Well Mr. Lourdes Manteufel is back to posting……….and posting aLOT. Language warning…….he’s pretty brash & belligerent
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@ shhhhhhh ” Language warning…….he’s pretty brash & belligerent.”
Maybe Mr. Manteufel is not ‘brash or belligerent’ but has a cause–which is expressed by righteous anger and is doing his part to expose the evil that was hidden for so long!
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Not only righteous anger, but he is very wise, I think. He is challenging those who teach strange stuff, by using the scripture to challenge with (my kind of Christian). Take for example his quote of a prayer that Pastor James McDonald said. Nolan broke it down very well. It was a veiled prayer, about keeping women in subjugation to men, praying that the women find JOY in it, for that is the will of God, blah, blah, blah. The pastor, of course, doesn’t seem to find anything wrong with that prayer, as he also posted a few responses. Nolan finds much wrong with that prayer. So do I. But in the comments, some are kinda scared to judge a prayer, and some agree with that prayer. My question is…why not judge a persons public prayer?
Bottom line…I think that Nolan has a good handle on this.
Ed
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I can see why she fell for Nolan. 🙂
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waitingforthetrumpet,
So saddened to hear about your mother. She’ll be in my prayers.
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WFTT: Your mom is in my prayers.
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I know there is a lot of sentiment out there (and I’m reading it here too) that Mike Farris’ comments are coming too late, and even he readily admits he should have spoken sooner. However, as I’ve posted on discussions elsewhere in the last few days, we need to be careful in assuming we know Mike’s motives as to why it took this long, and why he is speaking out now. We also need to remember that NONE of us came to our current understanding of the dangers of patriarchy overnight. I myself am a victim of patriarchy and yet it took me years to put all the pieces together and even longer to speak out about it. Mike is my friend and though it took longer than it should, I do believe with all my heart that he is trying to do the right thing now.
Mike is a national leader and as such, he does bear a certain amount of responsibility for his silence, which he has repeatedly acknowledged over the last few days. Mike has never espoused patriarchy personally, and he truly believed that his actions should have made his position clear. However, he realizes now that his silence communicated the opposite and brought much confusion as to his position. Mike has taken and is continuing to take responsibility for his silence, but sadly I’m not seeing much grace coming from a lot of these discussions. It is often said in our circles that grace was a missing key element in our experiences in the patriarchal world, but apparently some of us feel while grace should have been extended TO us, we don’t need to extend it to those who are readily and very publicly admitting their shortcomings when it comes to speaking out on these issues. I completely understand why people are cautious and need to see more “proof” and I think that is justified. But at the same time, I have seen a lot of very suspicious comments that assign any number of motives to why he is doing this now, and that is troubling to me.
I have posted here before. I have told my story in part on this site and I fully support the idea that patriarchy is dangerous and ugly and abusive. I am a victim of the movement and my family is still in a great deal of ruin because of it. Abuses have happened, relationships have been broken, and much, much healing is still needed. I UNDERSTAND the frustration of leaders such as Mike being silent on this. I have been personally very frustrated and disappointed with that silence. However, I believe his statements recently are genuine and come from a humble heart. Mike is human and in that he is no different than any of us.
Mike has continued to engage the conversation on his Facebook page over the last few days, and I think that will continue. I would encourage everyone here to read his comments, ask questions, be part of the conversation. He IS listening. He listened to me.
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Then tell Mike to not go to any conferences where the main/primary speakers are the heavy patriarchy types. Like the upcoming CHEC (Colorado) conference. Tell him to send out an e-mail blast to all HSLDA followers (I get their emails even though I am not a member), and point out the dangers and abuses. Yes, he is a big representative of the homeschool movement, and he and his organizations should speak up.
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Problem is, Jeanette, that he DIDN’T listen to many of the homeschool graduates who are now writing their stories about growing up in the patriarchal world (and have been for quite some time) – those very young people who know FIRST-HAND the abuses that can happen. They have been writing to him and all their pleas have fallen on deaf ears. If you don’t know who they are, just look on the sidebar of this site – Julie Anne has been highlighting their stories for several years. SHE listens and defends.
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Jeanette,
I appreciate your comment very much. But I am skeptical in a sense, due to the core, and I do mean core, purpose of, and objectives of, homeschooling.
I posted a long rant on patheos yesterday, only to find it gone within a few minutes.
I see nothing wrong, in and of itself, of homeschooling. But when a religious overtone is used as the purpose of homeschooling, it has a sour taste in my stomach. The stage is set for abuse, as the government, civil authorities, are the bad guys, all because these religious isolationists adhere to 1 Cor 6 in a skewed way, setting the stage for breaking the law of the land that we are to obey. I call that anarchy. The secular psychiatrists are the bad guys. What about the eye doctor, or the dentist, too?
To me, it’s isolation on a religious compound. Isolationists from a society that is out there for Christians to be present in the world for their good works to “be seen of men”.
Some people come out of homeschooling just fine. However, as my brother in law informed me a while back:
Never isolate your children FROM evil. Teach your children to confront evil. Isolation has many bad consequences in the end. Not for all, but for many. The proof of that is all over the internet.
I’m not so sure that Mike is on the right side of defending homeschooling. I think he is on the wrong side of defending the religious overtone purpose, and objectives of homeschooling. Religious freedom is one thing, but hiding behind the constitution is another.
Reading, writing, and arithmetic, history and science is taught in public school. I know. I was there. Not everyone in public school is of the devil. The “world” is for us to make a difference, not to isolate in our own little world.
Ed
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chapmaned24: The constitution is what makes it possible for us to homeschool. It is our protection against the many forces who want to strip us of this right, which existed prior to the drafting of the US Constitution. We would not need to “hide” if no one was attacking. The implication of cowardice makes me angry. We are not the cowards. Rather we are making great sacrifices and some of us are subjected to social ostracism and even persecution for our beliefs.
We have homeschooled all our children because we desire to teach them from a theistic premise. All systems of education proceed from some premise. We have the right to choose the premise. Pursuant to Romans 13, we are subject to the civil authorities, so long as they do not exceed their jurisdiiction.
I post under my real name. No cowardice there.
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Would Rather Not Say – Really? So do you typically call up your friends and tell them what to do and they just do it? Others are asking him those questions and I am waiting to see what he does. He HAS spoken up and he has also promised that HSLDA will be speaking up as well.
Carmen – I’d like to know how many people actually wrote TO him vs. blogging about it. I’m sure Mike follows some discussions and I’m sure some things are brought to his attention, but we’re assuming he spends all his time reading blogs and stories, and he simply doesn’t have the luxury of that kind of time. Again, he has admitted his errors here, I’m not saying he didn’t make mistakes. I’m saying he is trying to right those mistakes now and that is at least a step in the right direction.
Chapmaned24 – I hear where you’re coming from, and religious abuse does occur in SOME homeschool families, but homeschooling isn’t abusive on its own. I agree that isolation is wrong and that parents who use isolation to brainwash their children and make them in to robots is horrible. However, regardless of a parent’s religious views, they will impart what they believe to their children. Christians, Jewish, Muslim, Athiest. It’s natural for a parent to share their views and values with their child and homeschoolers of all faiths should have the right to do so. I don’t believe that is indoctrination.
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Jeanette, several of the young people who have Blogs have stated they have written to him numerous times and got no reply. Definitely no action, either. This latest public statement? CYA, in many people’s opinions – there’s quite a bit of it going around.
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In Mike’s case, (and this is not based on conjecture but on actual knowledge) it is NOT CYA. It might be in the case of others, but not in his case. Believe what you want…I just want the truth out there. As for the letters – that is interesting and if they were indeed ignored, then that is certainly not right. I’m not trying to claim that he’s innocent here and neither is he. That would be a great question for someone to post on his page. 🙂
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Keith,
I expected such a response, so I was not surprised by yours. Again, I am not against homeschooling. I am against the religious overtones of homeschooling.
Don’t you think that the average non-home-schooled Christian is ostracized for our beliefs as well? Pull up your bootstraps, man. Didn’t Paul give us armor?
Besides, I never knew that reading, writing, and arithmetic, and PE had a theistic premise. Come on, man. I went to public school. I went to Sunday School. I went to Church. I went to vacation Bible school. I went to Christian camp. But again, I went to public school, 1982 Graduate of Auburn Senior High School, Auburn, Washington, with a B average, and very proud of being an alumni. I never believed in evolution, just because the science teacher taught it.
Isolation is not a good thing that you should be touting. It’s nothing more than a religious compound.
So long as they do not exceed their jurisdiiction? What jurisdiction are you espousing here? You are supposed to be IN THE WORLD, not in hiding from the world.
The reasons that you give for homeschooling is my exact reasons for opposing homeschooling.
With respect,
Ed
P.S., and, by the way, my real name is in my nick here. Chapmaned is Ed Chapman, not a past tense of the word chapman.
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Anyone involved with HSLDA…a question for you. We have been members for almost a year and received a call from them yesterday that I let go to voicemail…it was someone “just wanting to know how HSLDA could serve our family better.” Anyone that is a member – have you received these calls before or is this HSLDA damage control going on? They are going to have to talk pretty fast to keep us as members…I almost wish I had taken the call now so I could have asked some questions.
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I like that Ed – not a past tense of the word chapman. . .:) – made me grin. ..
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It will be interesting to follow what is being said by those WouldRatherNotSay identifies as pillars of the patriarchy movement. (4/16 @ 6:50 AM). There may be an attempt by some to cover their tracks. Mostly, however, I’m expecting a deafening silence, a running for cover. Kind of like what happens in the middle of the night when the lights are switched on in a roach infested kitchen. Except what we’re talking about here is the light of truth, and though it may not happen on our terms or according to our schedule, Truth ultimately prevails. Because Truth is a Person. “The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” (John 1:5 ESV)
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Carmen,
LOL, I’ve posted on YouTube before, and people have said that chapmaned is a real past tense term, something about Mark David Chapman or something like that.
Reminds me of being Rick Rolled…which I have been. That sucks.
Ed
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Remember, Jeanette – Michael Farris is also dealing with his mishandling of the reports of sexual assault at his college as well. I agree with Ryan Stollar – Farris would rather tolerate patriarchy in the Christian homeschooling movement than lose money for denouncing it.
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Ed, I’m not familiar with either name – cultural deprivation, you understand. Remember, I’m Canadian, eh? 🙂
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I know this comment isn’t so much about Phillips, but it still is about someone just as awful, and about another leader in patriarchy, homeschooling with underlying agendas and covering up sexual abuse.
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/bill-gothard-issues-public-statement/#more
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Carmen,
From the 80’s, Rick Astley sung “Never Gonna Give You Up”. It was popular on MTV. But, a few years ago, the video was turned into a virus that locked your computer, and/or your browser, and the song just continued to loop until you shut your computer down. That’s Rick Rolled.
Mark David Chapman was the man that murdered John Lennon.
Ed
________________________________
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To chime in on the homeschool conversation a bit – chapmaned24, I think that everything has a theistic component (including those school subjects that you mentioned). I believe that you can certainly bring in your worldview when teaching math…for example, there is order and an unchanging quality about math. And with God. So, you can not only teach math, but talk about God and His attributes in the context of math. I do not do this every day, but it is certainly there. So, while we personally do not believe in keeping our children isolated, we certainly believe in homeschooling them so that we can teach them what we believe to be true…all while we are giving them a great education. If others choose to homeschool in order to ensure an atheistic worldview taught, that is their decision. If others decide to send their children to public school for any reason whatsoever, that is their right and choice.
I also grew up in the public school system and feel I received a great education – went on to get several more degrees afterwards. So, I am not discrediting the public/private school system. I also did not change to an evolutionary belief system after taking a required Evolution class in college. I just don’t think that this education debate has to be mutually exclusive. Can’t all 3 (or more) be okay and viable options? I know one thing…it is hard enough making decisions for my own family…the last thing I want to do is try to make other people’s decisions for them!
Finally, I totally agree that it is not just homeschoolers who are ostracized for their beliefs…I have many friends who send their children to public school that struggle greatly with other’s attitudes about their education choice…it shouldn’t be this way!!
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I see Doug Wilson has spoken. Better then his last article that’s for sure.
http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/vision-forum-and-confessing-your-virtues.html#more-106659
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WFTT – Bill GotHard – another one of Michael Farris’ friends. . . .sigh. .. surely he’s got to be asking himself the question – with friends like Bill and Doug, who needs enemies??
Of course, Ed, I should have recognized Mark David Chapman. The Rick story I’ve never heard . . .I’m hoping that my MacBook is immune to that sort of thing!
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@Julie, I am posting the link to the article where Voddie B. addresses the quote that is on line 30 of the lawsuit. He addressed it way back in 2009. Thought you might be interested.
http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/blog/november-question-month-update-edition-2009-11/
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You guys are cracking me up. I’m trying to proof my new article and you all are posting the links from stuff that I was using. New article is up. 🙂 GMTA = great minds think alike
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My problem with Michael Farris is that he is a child abuse denier and his organization has supported abusive parents because they home school. I am using my cellphone and can’t do links but I found this information in multiple articles on Homeschoolers Anonymous.
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Hey Gary W – great to see you!
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My problem with Michael Farris is that he’s been in bed with Patriarchy for a long, long time. He is also pushing Reconstructionism in his very slick way by having Patrick Henry strategically located by DC so the students can lobby their agenda, etc. He is one of the original 4 pillars of the modern Homeschool Movement. Although he has helped parents with homeschooling laws, there is so much angst against government intrusion that it is unhealthy. Ie, when living in VA, I only had to file a “religious exemption” note with the superintendent and then the government was “hands off” for the rest of my child’s education. I was a responsible parents, however, some parents are not. This was a law that HSLDA protected.
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Exactly, Marsha – that site is full of reports from young, previously home-schooled people who have a beef with Michael Farris, for one. There are screen shots of conversations they’ve had with him over many issues. Farris CANNOT say he hasn’t heard from them directly. Tons of information there and I’ve been following that site for a year now, as it’s been one of the Blogs Julie Anne endorses. Just look on the sidebar here, folks!!
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Just for the record, I don’t have any knowledge of the HSLDA phone calls and very little knowledge of the PHC issues relating to women and rape, so I won’t venture into discussions on those.
I’ll also not venture into discussions about Mike in the past. That is for him to discuss as he chooses. I will only say that I believe he is genuine now and I’m disappointed in some of what I see here. In fighting the battle against patriarchy, I’m afraid some people have forgotten that we’re talking about real people. We need to be careful to balance our truth-telling and our blame-throwing with grace and mercy.
I have no further comment.
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LilyJ,
I talk about God all the time. I never have a problem about talking about God, to anyone, anywhere, etc.
But, if you are a Christian, then that means that God lives in you, that God is with you, where ever you go. That includes public school. We are to be an influence to people in the world, whether or not we see theistic attributes in a reading assignment, or basket weaving.
But, what I am gathering from everyone who homeschools from a religious stand point, there is an agenda. Many of us Christians do not believe in this patriarchal stuff, no matter how much it is sold in books, or conferences, or speaking engagements. Many of us Christians do not believe that you must have as many children as possible to populate and overtake the non-Christians.
That reminds me of Braveheart, where the King said, “The problem with Scotland is that it’s full of Scot’s”. He continued to say that they would “BREED” them out.
Many of us Christians do not believe in the barefoot and pregnant theology, or the subjugation of women and/or children, especially adult children. Many of us Christians do not buy off on the notion that the government is the evil bad guy, or that church elders/pastors have what it takes to properly give psycho therapy.
The CORE religious belief system is totally different from many non-home schooled Christians.
We are not equal in our beliefs. But one thing is certain, abuse of many kinds are prevalent in the homeschooling network due to the different beliefs.
None of THOSE theistic belief systems are a part of math or science, or even basket weaving. Oh, and I am a male…I took homec…a woman’s work, right? In my Navy days, I typed, filed, answered phones, and had female bosses. I did a woman’s work, right? I never should have been in subjugation to a woman, right?
You see…some call me a heretic, because I believe that a woman can be over a man. My daughter is in the US Navy. Your religious “world view” would have a hey day on that one. But I am proud of her. I hope there comes a day when men are saluting her.
Yes, isolation is not a good thing. Be in the world. Christ was in the world. If it was good enough for him, it’s good enough for all of us professing Christ.
With Respect,
Ed
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Yep. Per wantingthetruth at high noon, Doug Wilson has spoken. He starts by criticizing the victim for going to Court. Well, that prohibition only applies to taking other Christians to Court, and it assumes that the congregation of believers will step in and assure a just outcome. Well, even Wilson allows as much as that his fellow patriarchists didn’t step in to effect justice. As to whether Phillips is or is not a Christian I had best not suggest one way or the other. However, for the purpose of applying the prescription against suing a fellow believer, I am content to allow the victim to make the call based on whether the other party is or is not actually behaving like a Christian.
Wilson also goes on at great length to say that patriarchy isn’t the problem. Rather, wrongheaded notions of authority are, he says, the problem. Say what? Oh, now I see. Wilson ends by trying to get us to believe that patriarchy means something like servant-hood. As in Wonderland, words mean no more nor less than what Wilson says they mean.
It is just as I thought. The pillars of patriarchy who do speak only undertake to defend their hugely vulnerable backsides. I suppose I should resist the temptation to suggest which end of the gastrointestinal tract they are speaking from.
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“In fighting the battle against patriarchy, I’m afraid some people have forgotten that we’re talking about real people. We need to be careful to balance our truth-telling and our blame-throwing with grace and mercy. ”
Yes we are talking about real people who make their living from certain movements in Christendom. That changes everything and is part of the larger problem. Which donor/member market niche would Farris offend by speaking up– if he disagreed with Patriarchy or Doug Phillips all those years ago?
This is a constant problem in Christendom. It colors everything when you are making a living in that venue. There are salaries and cash flow at stake. Raising funds is hard enough but they must grow while maintaining the current system. And the fact that salaries are tied to certain movements also tips the balance of “grace and mercy” so many times I have personally witnessed—- that I lost count.
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Gary W! I have missed your comments. Glad to see you again.
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Let’s see how this is carefully worded:
1 Cor 5 (Remember…this is a letter)
A report only.
verse 1: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you
verse 3: I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.
verse 11: you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral
verse 12: What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
verse 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
Please note that Paul believe a “report” (NO EVIDENCE), and Paul JUDGED (For all of you judge not lest ye be judged people), not even being present. Just a letter.
Ed
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@ shhhhhhh ” Language warning…….he’s pretty brash & belligerent.”
Maybe Mr. Manteufel is not ‘brash or belligerent’ but has a cause–which is expressed by righteous anger and is doing his part to expose the evil that was hidden for so long!
It’s one thing to call someone out with righteous anger, hold people accountable and in the name of Christ. It’s another to throw in disgusting 4 letter slang curse words and cut people down………there’s a way to do things and a way NOT to do things. People are going to look at that with the SHEER disgusting language used and say “he’s a Christian??????”
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For those that were talking earlier about Doug going back and forth and now trying to say it was “mostly emotional and not sexual”………….I am almost guaranteeing that if this goes to court (I hope it does), all the men and more will be subpoenaed to testify against Doug. Especially people like Bradrick, Morecraft etc.
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/03/set_adrift/page2
Morecraft, the Atlanta pastor, didn’t give me a formal interview, but he did confirm that he asked Phillips two questions at the meeting: (1) Did you have an inappropriate relationship with an unmarried woman? (Morecraft confirmed he identified her by name.) (2) Was it sexual?
Morecraft confirmed Phillips answered yes to both questions.
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chapmaned24
Sorry to bore you with the expected response. As i have said before, perhaps here, I teach my children to confront evil. They are not isolated. My daughter went to Hanyang U. last summer, by herself at age 17. She is going back to Seoul this June. So I don’t know where you are coming from with this isolation allegation.
Attitudes like yours really trouble me. The Constitution protects us. There are even some open-minded people on the left who will protect us, but I can’t visualize you standing up for our constitutional rights. Probably not, because you say that religious reasons for homeschooling (i.e. the constitutional reasons, deriving from Meyer v. Nebraska, Pierce, and Yoder cases) are not proper reasons for you. I am glad you are not in charge of my family’s freedom of religion.
As regards the neutrality of various disciplines, this would be a quite a lengthy discussion. I can make the arguments, but pearls and swine and so on.
As regards your alias/screen name/ past tense, etc. I don’t know what you are trying to say with that. if I have insulted you because of your name, I apologise to you. if I have insulted you by saying that you have a defective view of religious freedom, I do not apologize.
As regards jurisdiction, the civil authority may not order the Christian to sin.Further, the civil authority of a given government is bound by its own constitution. If you don’t agree with this, we are so far apart I am not sure dialogue would have any meaning.
I am glad you have stated your opposition to Christian homeschooling so clearly. You are the enemy of me and my family, which is nice to know. It is the enemies we don’t know that are dangerous.
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Shhhhhhh,
I don’t see anything wrong with using a few 4 letter words. Ever heard of the Special High Intensity Training program, otherwise known as….
Righteous anger includes a few words that you may not be comfortable with. And it’s ok if you are offended by them. It’s not about you.
Only the self righteous would have a problem with a 4 letter word from someone in righteous anger.
Ed
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I think a lot of people are having a problem with the idea that the young woman here could be a victim. Without offering an opinion on this particular case, I have worked with victims in sexual abuse cases for many years. The psychology of it all is hard to understand if one has not experienced it or dealt extensively with those who are victims themselves. Without commenting on this particular case, i have had child victims who feel sorry for their abusers, and experience great anguish in coming forward. Often they truly love the person who has abused them, but hate the abuse they were subject to.
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“It’s one thing to call someone out with righteous anger, hold people accountable and in the name of Christ. It’s another to throw in disgusting 4 letter slang curse words and cut people down………there’s a way to do things and a way NOT to do things. People are going to look at that with the SHEER disgusting language used and say “he’s a Christian??????” ”
I understand where you’re coming from here, but, personally, I would cut Nolan Manteufel some slack. I suspect we’re witnessing a very protective side of him. (Was it just a week ago that he and Lourdes were married?) He is watching the woman he just married having to defend her word against a very powerful man and system. I know I’d be terrified.
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BTDT – He was married exactly one week ago! And then the lawsuit was filed either on 4/14 or 4/15 – – not exactly the way most marriages start out.
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Not everyone starts out homeschooling for “Christian” reasons. We started out because of medical reasons. My oldest had a condition that required her to go to the bathroom every 2 hours. I figured the teachers would not wait until she got back to teach the lessons, and I’d end up teaching her anyway. So, why not teach her myself from the beginning?
Plus we did a year of “regular” preschool with her, and she has food allergies. We sent a note home with all the kids asking that if they were going to bring something “special” – like cupcakes or cookies, would they let me know so I could provide an alternative equivalent for her. Not a single one did. Not a single one – not even the mothers of her friends.
Then, when she was 8, I figured out she is dyslexic. In Colorado, dyslexia is NOT considered a learning disability, it is considered a medical condition. She would not be eligible for any assistance (modifications, yes, assistance, no) at the school. So, I feel very grateful to have been led to homeschool.
One of my boys is also dyslexic. His is slightly worse than my daughter’s case. Again, I am grateful that I can homeschool them and assist and modify curriculum to meet their abilities. Yes, my homeschool looks very different from some because of my childrens’ challenges, but they are learning and thriving.
But, my kids certainly meet those who are not homeschooled. My boys play baseball and basketball on city league teams. My daughter takes dance. There is lots of opportunity for them to interact “with the world.”
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Keith,
Wow…
You said:
“The Constitution protects us”
Yes, the constitution does protect strange religious beliefs…even the Mormons, and the Islamists, too.
Glad to know that we are enemies. I never knew that Christians are enemies towards each other. What book, chapter and verse do we find that one at?
“the civil authority may not order the Christian to sin”
This shows that you think that our government is the bad guy. You had a reason to bring the word “jurisdiction” into the conversation.
Now…what “sin” are you talking about here?
Is the “civil authority” suggesting that you commit adultery, or covet your neighbors donkey? Sin is biblically defined as “Transgression of the Law [of Moses]”. That is found in 1 John 3:4.
I worked as a Payroll clerk in the US Navy…dat be da government…for many years. I fell under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and let me tell you…the Navy never once suggested that I sin.
So, I am not buying your explanation here about “jurisdiction”.
Calling me a dangerous enemy is funny. I am about FREEDOM, but your religious views is in regards to BONDAGE, cloaked in the freedom of the Constitution of the United States, that I had a contract with the US Navy to support and defend.
I know a false patriot from a real one. You are a false patriot.
Ed
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Keith, why on EARTH would Ed be your enemy?? It’s a called a difference of opinion; we’re human – it happens. Live with it. Methinks he dost protest too much. . . ..
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whoops. .. doth. .. .(the Bard would be turning in his grave)
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Carmen,
Is that why we are called “protest” ants? LOL
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“It’s one thing to call someone out with righteous anger, hold people accountable and in the name of Christ. It’s another to throw in disgusting 4 letter slang curse words and cut people down………there’s a way to do things and a way NOT to do things. People are going to look at that with the SHEER disgusting language used and say “he’s a Christian??????””
Shhh,
Don’t you think enough damage has been done “In the Name of Christ”? You sound like you want Nate to use more “Christianese” so he can be “acceptable” and people think he is a “Christian”. What people? Who are you really worried about?
I see this so often. People come out of these cults which are based on “outward appearances” to the point or ridiculousness and they decide to exercise their new found freedom to cuss. Perhaps even get a tatoo or something.
And then the “Christians” jump all over them for not sounding like them. For crying out loud, both he and his wife were in a cult. She was horribly used. They both have a serious journey ahead of them to reprogram their brains and it will NOT be easy. So cussing? Seriously?. I honestly believe they will heal faster because they are standing up to the cult leader. I can certainly overlook cussing, tatoos, and a lot of other things. I will take that anyday over the “dirty teacup” of false appearances and the obligatory “Christianese” Nazi’s.
Understand this. Those who KNOW Jesus Christ will understand what the poor guy and his wife have been through and offer up much grace.
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Shhh…btw, Do you think it was “Christian” of Paul to suggest the Judaizers “cut off their manhood” in a letter to the Galatians that billions would read over the next 1900 years? :o)
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Keith,
The Constitution does NOT protect you from blogs where people voice differing opinions, disagreemetns, etc.
Sheesh! And I am a Libertarian who despises ALL tyranny no matter where it comes from.
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“Please note that Paul believe a “report” (NO EVIDENCE), and Paul JUDGED (For all of you judge not lest ye be judged people), not even being present. Just a letter.”
yep. The letter was in response to a “report” from “Chloe’s people”. Ironic, eh?
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Chapmaned24: I served in the US Army from 1983-1986, do you want the names of my units? 1st Bn. 13th Inf. 8th ID in Baumholder. The last six months I was in I was in the 7th ID at Fort Ord.
You are apparently confusing a defense of our right to homeschool with some cultic systems. I am LCMS, but attend a church of another denomination because there is no LCMS church here. But if you want to call the 2.3 million LCMS members cultists, fine. They did that to Lutherans at the Council of Trent, but we are still here.
i am a Christian. You announce your dislike of the constitutional rights of me and my family, and thousands of others, so you are our enemy. You might try to be a little more open-minded and tolerant.
I have taken the oath to the constitution several times in my life and currently work for the government. Your “false patriotism” allegation is false itself. The constitution I swore to protect also protects the right to homeschool for religious reasons. This may be an uncomfortable concept to you. Perhaps you should work for an amendment to the Constitution which strips us of our freedom. You would have plenty of company.
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Lydia: I don’t need any protection, and am asking for none. But I will stand up for what I believe in. Always have and always will. Why do you think i am asking for protection? I am not. Actually I would like a good fight, but as a nice Lutheran boy I should probably not be thinking that way, especially on Good Friday.
Most libertarians support freedom of education. I hope you are one.
Tschuess!
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“Most libertarians support freedom of education. I hope you are one.”
If I had my way there would be no Federal Dept of Education or even state education departments. I am all for school choice for every family. Can you imagine the talent that would be unleashed if we got the government out of the education business? States would be competing with each other for the most talented workforce, inventors and researchers out there. It would be a glorious, chaotic beautiful thing. I cannot stand conformity.
Personally, I think our system of education is totally outdated. My I certainly got off topic!
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Keith, read this over: “You announce your dislike….so you are our enemy. You might try to be a little more open-minded and tolerant.”
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Keith,
And I will stand up for what I believe in. I believe that there is an agenda in the homeschooling “movement” when religion is the reason. And it isn’t just a belief of mine.
Like I said, the constitution does indeed protect all sorts of goofy beliefs. It isn’t the Constitution that I have a problem with about your so-called protection. It’s your goofy beliefs within your religion, calling it Christian.
Now, if you do not espouse to the barefoot and pregnant theology, subjugating women to men, or patriarchal, then my rant was not to you. But if you do, then so be it. I stand up for what I believe is right. I do not support bondage of any kind in any religion, no matter how much the constitution defends you.
The ABUSE is caused BECAUSE OF this religious homeschooling movement, and ABUSE is not protected by the constitution. It is against the law. The law that is outside of your church. It’s also against the church, as well…BUT, due to isolation, it’s EASILY covered up, never reported, and why? Because RELIGIOUS LEADERS are teaching that it should be handled internally, and what’s the punishment? A simple resignation without the CIVIL AUTHORITIES getting involved?
Ya, you go ahead and USE the Constitution for your protection, while there is sin RAMPANT in your organization, and what is the law doing about it? Nothing, because they don’t know about it…UNTIL NOW. Why now? Because it is forbidden to go to outside authorities, the evil government who doesn’t recognize 1 Cor 6.
Yes, I have read all sorts of homeschooling abuses, so please, don’t lecture me about the constitution supporting your rights. It doesn’t support a belief. So, I say that your belief is WRONG. If I am an enemy due to that, so be it.
Ed
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I had to go back and re-read Nolan’s Facebook page because I hadn’t noticed any vulgar language. There is nothing there I object to.
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