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Lourdes Torres, alleged victim in sex abuse scandal with Douglas Phillips of Vision Forum, has filed a lawsuit against Douglas Phillips
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The victim in the Doug Phillips sex abuse case has filed a lawsuit and in doing so, has chosen to publicly reveal her identity: Lourdes Torres. She is one brave woman. Go, Lourdes!
UPDATE April 16, 2014. At the end of this post, we’ve added key facts and links to select news reports and blog articles. We plan to continue to grow these lists as opportunity allows.
World Net Daily has the full story and it is a long one with photos and lots of details. In the first link below is the legal complaint:
In the complaint filed in Kendall County District Court in Texas Tuesday morning, Phillips is accused of using a woman named Lourdes Torres, now 29, as “a personal sex object” over a period of five years.
I was alerted on Sunday of another development – that Lourdes Torres (aka Victim) was married Friday evening to a former Boerne Christian Assembly member, Nolan Manteufel.
We first got a glimpse that something was up with this Facebook profile picture which was updated over the weekend:
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The lawsuit gets into graphic detail.
***********Trigger alert – Sexual Content************
Here are graphic details in the complaint. Phillips claimed he didn’t know her Biblically. The following paragraph shows that he knew her pretty darn well. Scroll down to the line of asterisks to get beyond the graphic part.
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My thoughts and prayers go to the Manteufels as they start their new life together and also as their private life will become very public. This is a very sad situation for all.
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UPDATE: I had someone ask where they can send support or gift cards. I would be happy to try to organize this. Nolan or Lourdes or David Gibbs, if you are reading this and can contact me, I think there may be a lot of people who would like to offer support in a more tangible way. ~Julie Anne (spiritualsb@gmail dot com)
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Links on the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel Lawsuit
Against Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, Inc., & Vision Forum Ministries
NOTE: This section has been moved to its own post.
NOTE: The extensive information that was on this page has been transferred to it’s own post. You will find it at Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips Lawsuit Informational Resource Page. That post already expands what was previously here by at least a third, and will be updated daily for at least the next 7 to 10 days. It includes the following sections:
- Preface
- Key Facts
- Official Court Documents and Other Statements
- Plaintiff, Defendants, and Their Legal Counsels
- Key Individuals in the Unfolding Story
- Relevant Background Issues
- Select Links to News Reports and Blog Posts
- Historical Overview Posts
- Potentially Relevant Legal Information
- Other Research and Resource Pieces
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Keith, it’s not so much the idea of homeschooling that most of us find objectionable. It’s that there is a certain segment of “christian homeschoolers” who are strict adherants of the Gothard and Phillips brand of totalitarian, patriarchial, heretical, abusive practices which later produce homeschooled children so totally sheltered from the outside world, no chance to make or socialize with peers, and who become victi s of physical, emotional, sexual abuse by those same parents. That’s the way these leaders insist their children must be taught. The kids have no voice, they must serve their fathers well into their own adulthoods. They can’t even choose their own marriage partners. Home becomes a prison or institution for them, and because of the rampant abuse going on in this small subsection of homeschooling, many of the kids are losing their faithad disowning ththeir families. That subsection is aorrible cult. Women and children are subservient to the fathr/husband, who owns and controls every aspect of their lives. The father even assumes the position of a god in the home. It’s oppressive.
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Sorry for the typos. My laptop is in the shop so I’m stuck with a tiny, touchy tablet.
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WFTT2,
That’s exactly what I was trying to get across. You said it better than I did.
Ed
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Chapmaned24
I don’t care if you think my religion is “goofy”. Most people don’t have a problem with Lutherans.
“Barefoot and pregnant”? “Subjugating Women”? “Sin rampant in your organization”? The LCMS? Lutherans in general? Lutheran homeschoolers? Lutheran parochial schools? What on earth are you talking about? Christian schools and homeschooling preceded the people you are complaining about for hundreds of years. God willing, it will continue.
Don’t you lecture me about patriotism. i won’t take that from anyone, and certainly not from some squid who doesn’t understand that if the constitutional right to homeschool is taken away, it will affect the much-broader group of non-barefoot and pregnant types who do. Iincluding secular homeschoolers, Buddhist home schoolers, and those horrible Lutheran homeschoolers etc.
Regarding sexual abuse within any organisation, my belief is that this is within the jurisdiction of the civil authorities and should be prosecuted. Yes, I said jurisdiction. i have locked up quite a few abusers over the years, so i practice what i preach. The abuser should also be excommunicated, but that is not within my jurisdiction.
Patrice: I have read it again. if one is an enemy of my freedom of religion that person is my enemy.
Lydia: i agree with your post 100%
I have to go now. My homeschooled daughter is being inducted into PTK at our community college tonight, primarily because she is sheltered, barefoot, ignorant and believes in six day creation. Actually only the creation part is true. She has gotten all As! Such a blessing from God!
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Well, Keith – if she actually believes in 6-day creation, you’ve said it all. How sad – and THAT’s education? Sorry. Not by me.
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Hi chapmaned24,
I just wanted to apologize if I came off as being argumentative in my comments. I did not intend for that tone to be there.
You said:
“Many of us Christians do not believe in the barefoot and pregnant theology, or the subjugation of women and/or children, especially adult children. Many of us Christians do not buy off on the notion that the government is the evil bad guy, or that church elders/pastors have what it takes to properly give psycho therapy.”
I am with you on this. I didn’t say anything that I see from my comment to say otherwise. My husband and I are not of the belief that we should have as many children as possible or in the subjugation of women and adult children to men. Not sure how that came through that we did. Please don’t take the fact that I homeschool my children with a Christian worldview to mean that we adhere to all these ideologies you mention…making broad generalities like this is dangerous.
My point in my comment earlier was mainly to say that why in the world can’t all of the education options be okay for people to choose from? Sure, there are evils that result from some families homeschooling. And there are evils that result from public schools and private schools and everything else. I guess I just don’t see homeschool as the core of the problem.
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Well, Keith, it is obvious that my rant was not to you…but somehow, you made it all about you by your very first response to me. That is why I engaged with you.
I don’t mind being called a squid. We S**T all over the Marine Life. But, I can say that I have been literally around the world and to many many many countries, and have seen oppression with my own eyes. I’ve been to South Korea several times, stationed in Japan, been to Australia 3 times, and Dubai more times than I can count, and even to Bahrain.
All that being said, if YOU don’t espouse the barefoot and pregnant theology, then my rant was NOT to you. Moreover, this isn’t about Lutherans. It’s about the other reformer dude from around Luther’s era, his espoused belief system. Generally, I have no problems with Lutherans, either.
Ed
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I’m always confused by 6-day creation expression. He didn’t create the 7th day?
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Lily J,
As with Keith, if you do not espouse what I laid out, then my apologies to you. My rant was not directed to you. It is to those who espouse the theologies of a “particular” homeschooling “movement”. They are the ones with an agenda.
Ed
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Ah, yes…the Creation compilation. I’ll have a HAM and cheese on NYE.
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Keith Blankenship, you call Ed your enemy. That takes your disagreement to an unacceptable personal level. If Ed is your enemy, then I, too, am your enemy.
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Gary,
I think that means that he loves me, for the Bible tells him to, right? Anyway, it’s OK, Gary…he’s Lutheran. I have no problems with Lutherans. I’m sure that he thought that I was lumping ALL Christians that home school. As you regulars here know from me, it’s only one brand of Christianity that I have a problem with. I don’t think that Keith was aware of that, so I have no problem with Keith.
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I object to that term myself, Gary. I think Keith’s forgotten the topic of this thread. Who’s the enemy? Filthy leg-humping perverts like DP, Gothard, and the like, who got away with their exploitation for years. They are the ones deserving of the strongest contempt – THEY are the enemies.
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No, Ed, of course you don’t have a problem with Keith. He’s the one labeling people as enemies. Even if the two of you were, in fact, of differing opinions on his hot button issues, that doesn’t justify him in calling you an enemy. So until he repents of having made you his enemy, he has made me his enemy.
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Yea, let’s cool it with the enemy talk. This is a good community here. Somewhere I missed the original enemy comment and too lazy to do a search. Let’s just move on from that. Deal?
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carmen, you refer to filthy leg-humping perverts like DP, Gothard, and the like, who got away with their exploitation for years. Well, I have come to believe that this sort of thing is WAY more prevalent than anybody can imagine. Maybe it’s not quite fair, but anytime I see a big name, authoritarian, I-have-all-the-answers, adulation-receiving “leader” in Christian circles, I automatically wonder how their narcissism is being fed outside the public view. Increasingly, sexual misconduct seems to be a given. Probably also financial shenanigans. To tell you the truth, I wouldn’t be surprised to discover that a large percentage of these high profile types are snorting coke. Even with the not so famous Christian leaders it is reported that large numbers, more than half I’m given to understand, are viewing pornography. It really isn’t so different from what you would expect to observe in other high-power, high-profile people. It just that unlike with, say, politicians, we are still surprised when we find such moral failure in even self-anointed Christian leaders.
I’m still a follower of Jesus, but when it comes to organizational affiliation, you can definitely count me as amongst the nones. The abject failure of organizational leaders played a huge part in my withdrawal from what I now perceive to be the utter darkness that is organized Christianity.
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Deal.
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Well, Gary – don’t you think that’s what’s going on with some of these commenters?? They cannot handle the fact that these perversions are happening among religious circles – they’ve always felt that this is the kind of moral failure that’s only present in the secular world. It’s got to be difficult to come to the conclusion that, wonder of all wonders, there’s morally decrepit individuals EVERYWHERE. A large pill to swallow. I think it’s high time some took their rose-coloured glasses off. We’re all in this together, folks. Sexual perverts should not be protected under ANY guise.
Rant over.
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btw………you have to know Nolan to understand some of this. He’s a pretty arrogant person. Also some are questioning his motives for marrying Lourdes. From what I understand, they were barely in a relationship for a month or so before they got married……….so some are questioning his motives and her motives as well. My heart goes out to her. She probably sees him as a “way out” of the circle. I am concerned thought that she will spin out of control……which is very common in this type situation.
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“I’m always confused by 6-day creation expression. He didn’t create the 7th day?”
BWAHAHA. I love it!
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“btw………you have to know Nolan to understand some of this. He’s a pretty arrogant person. Also some are questioning his motives for marrying Lourdes. From what I understand, they were barely in a relationship for a month or so before they got married……….so some are questioning his motives and her motives as well. My heart goes out to her. She probably sees him as a “way out” of the circle. I am concerned thought that she will spin out of control……which is very common in this type situation”
I am glad you brought this up because I think many in that movement will make a huge deal of it. And I am hoping that people in that movement will be told that their reasons for marriage are nobody’s business. Until people understand what coming out of such a cult entails, I do not expect them to understand.
The goal will be to not only marginalize them in the broad sense to people in the movement but those on the fence, too. They will also to try and divide and conquer them as a couple. If their marriage helps them deal with coming out of a cult, then so be it. It is none of my business. They certainly do not need anyone’s permission to marry as they are of age.
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Notsurprised,
The nice thing about it is this:
His or her motives are nobodies business. The point isn’t what they do, or did, as a couple, but what Doug did, and his motives for committing a crime.
Ed
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The point i am trying to make is that if you start restricting the constitutional rights of some homeschoolers, you also restrict the rights of us all.
Chapmaned24 said my religion was goofy, that he opposes christian homeschooling and that I was a false patriot. Repentance by Chapman, whoever he is? Nope. But Blankenship has to repent for saying the man who wants to take away constitutional rights is an enemy. No thanks. Nothing to repent of. He wants to take away my rights, and is thus my enemy. How could it be said that he is my friend?
One of the reasons I follow this site is that i have spent most of the last 20 years locking up child molesters, rapists, etc. ( a lot of other criminals as well), When I read about the Phillips situation, I got interested in another guy named Gothard, and have been researching the links between some of the people involved.
I think I am about to be banned or moderated, Just like Jen’s gems and the NFIC website did to me. i don’t really care. I have stood up for sexual abuse victims and gotten long sentences for their abusers. If I get the boot, so be it.
Carmen: Thanks for picking on my daughter. She is probably smarter than you, because she is not wasting her time on your lot like I am. Can you speak Korean? She does,
Chapmaned; You accused me of false patriotism. Prove it,
I really need to stay away from evangelicals, Baptists and Calvinists. My pastors and my church tell us this, but my I stray. Sunday I will be in an LCMS church, hearing the liturgy which is the same liturgy Christians have sung for almost 2000 years now. The pastor will proclaim the gospel that Jesus’ blood was shed for my sins. i don’t really care about Chapman, Carmen, Patrice or whatever. i do know that I have done my part as a servant of Christ locking up abusers.
So, have a Happy Easter. Banned or not, i won’t post here again.
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Keith,
Your last comment got held in moderation because it triggered a keyword, sorry about that. Yes, you were intense, but I can handle intense as long as there are no personal attacks. Ed said he has no problem with you. I know him well enough to know when he has a problem with someone because he is completely straight up. You don’t have to leave. We’ve got some strong personalities here, sounds like you fit right in.
Funny thing, someone was recently telling me about their LCMS church and they spoke so glowingly about it, it actually made me want to visit one. I may have to do that. Happy Easter!
PS It’s pretty cool that your daughter speaks Korean.
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Keith, I’ve also been in the military. Ten years active duty Air Force and was the first female in my unit stationed in South Korea. I was at Osan Air Base. My favorite things to eat there were bulgogi and yakimandu. And the shopping…..wow. all the brass, leather, silk, oil paintings on canvas….all so inexpensive to buy!
Annyeong haseyo. 🙂
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About Lourdes and Nolan, I don’t know them but they are two nice looking people who came out of the same cult-like church. I can imagine that their common experience brought them together quickly and a mutual attraction did the rest. I wish them the best.
I married a man whose first wife had had the same rare long term terminal illness as my first husband. We are joyously happy. We are close friends with two other couples like us and know more through the Internet. When you have been through something that most people do not understand, it creates a bond of friendship and sometimes friendship blossoms into more.
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“think I am about to be banned or moderated, Just like Jen’s gems and the NFIC website did to me. i don’t really care. I have stood up for sexual abuse victims and gotten long sentences for their abusers.”
Well done. Thank you!
“I really need to stay away from evangelicals, Baptists and Calvinists. ”
Me too!
(And I am a Baptist but I hardly recognize them anymore since Mohler became their Pope)
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“When you have been through something that most people do not understand, it creates a bond of friendship and sometimes friendship blossoms into more.”
I was thinking along the same lines. Who would understand being raised in cult better than someone else who came out of it, too?
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We home school our children because we do not want them exposed to evil until they are mature enough to know how to effectively stand against evil.
Why would a Christian allow their precious child to be exposed to pornography on a cell phone or sexting as is common with the majority of students in public schools? Why would a Christian allow their child to be taught by a strange adult when the incidence of child sexual abuse is prevalent and growing amongst both male and female public school teachers? Once a child’s innocence is lost or a child is harmed there is no do over.
Our children aren’t isolated. They travel the world a couple months a year on vacations, work on our hobby farm, play sports, etc. As they reach ages where they can physically and intellectually protect themselves from evil and danger, they are given more and more leeway on their own. All are encouraged to learn everything they can in school so they will have myriad choices for professions down the road.
I am the product of prep school and an Ivy League college (saved by God at age 31) and wouldn’t send my children to a liberal indoctrination camp like that for any reason. Allowing those the Bible calls evil (liars, homosexuals, murderers (abortion advocates, etc) to have authority over your children is foolish and contrary to scripture.
Anyone advocating for exposing children to evil, as some poster’s uncle said, shouldn’t be around Christian children.
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“Why would a Christian allow their child to be taught by a strange adult when the incidence of child sexual abuse is prevalent and growing amongst both male and female public school teachers?”
I personally know homeschooling families where the children were sexually abused by fathers/brothers/uncles. This is one area where neither public/private schoolers nor homeschoolers can claim advantage.
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I figured some ‘Godly father’ would be coming on to lecture the rest of us about how NOT to bring up children. In case you missed the last thread, the whole thrust of that topic was to point out that there are MANY young people who did not get protected at all under Patriarchy – obviously your children have been; congratulations. Good for you.
Guess what? My kids – and many of my friends’ kids – were brought up in (evil) public schools and not one got molested by a teacher. I’m a public school teacher and also taught Sunday School for years – I kept my hands off the kids.
Guess what else? I, along with another teacher, delivered a Sexual Assault Prevention program to school kids in the mid-80’s. It was given to various grade levels, starting with grade Primary. I’m sure there are many kids from that era who can still chant the song we used to sing –
“My body’s nobody’s body but mine; you run your own body, let me run mine!” The premise was this – children need to learn healthy personal-space boundaries from an early age. Although I am NO WAY saying that this program protected every student from sexual assault, I like to think it helped. That program – along with frank discussions and pertinent conversations from both parents to our kids about sexuality, helped to arm them with the tools they needed to go off on their own. Mind you, they also went to many drama, music, and language camps (with leaders who were strangers!) during summers and all had part-time jobs from the time they were young teenagers.
I’m sure you’ll cover your ears on this one, Christian Father, but our girls (in particular) were always able to handle themselves because they were taught to be independent from an early age. When they went off to University, they left with information and a prescription. In a word? They were NORMAL teenage girls.
For years, all four of the kids were either going to school, working jobs (sometimes a combo of both!), or travelling. One backpacked across Europe alone. One went to teach English in Japan and travelled to several other Asian countries with another girl. One did the Camino pilgrimage (across the Pyrenees). One slept in a tent for three summers up north and worked in the tourist industry.
NOT ONCE did any of them get groped, fondled, leg-humped, or messed upon by a dirty old man.
The patriarchal system is the problem here, Christian father. Others have written far more eloquently about the problems associated with it; you might want to read about the lost innocence of some of the young people who’ve experienced it.
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Dear Christian Father,
Uhm… I work in the public school system, here in Japan. I’ve been doing so for years. In your eyes, does that make me guilty of aiding and abetting the indoctrination of kids?
If I’m ever blessed with a family of my own, I’ll probably send them to public school myself. Does that mean I shouldn’t be around Christian children? Including my own?
Yes, it has risks and problems, but it’s not nearly as scary as you seen to think.
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whoops, my comment above should have read ‘this thread’ not ‘the last thread’ – thought I was on the next Blog entry. . .my bad.
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There is an excellent post on not being a victim at Femina. http://www.feminagirls.com/2014/04/17/on-not-being-a-victim/#more-6279
There may be more to Doug Wilson than some realize since this post is by his daughter. He did reference this article in his second post. I’m just saying that while you may not like the post on Vice, Victims and Vision Forum, you will likely appreciate the post by his daughter.
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I was offering reasons why my wife homeschools OUR children. Hopefully it is OK with you that we can decide how we raise OUR children.
I know for a fact that OUR children will not be molested by their homeschool teacher nor exposed to pornography or perversion. To me, as a Christian, this certainty of their spiritual and physical safety is important.
To argue that public schools or prep schools do not have an epidemic of sexting is to deny facts. To argue that public schools or prep schools do not have an epidemic of sexual abuse by teachers is to deny facts. To argue that public schools or prep schools do not promote a secular humanist approach to moral issues is to deny facts.
If it is your desire to take a risk with YOUR children’s well-being, that is YOUR choice. Why your responses are so anger filled or accusatory is beyond me if you truly believe in your position that taking risks with the emotional and spiritual well being of your 6 year old Christian child is just fine and dandy with God.
Be proud of who you are and kindly explain to a simple Bible believer like me how God pleasing it is to have your children taught by homosexuals and murderers for it is certain if your children attend public schools or prep schools at least one of their teachers will be a homosexual and at least one of their teachers will be an abortion advocate.
Simple question: Is age 5 old enough for your precious gift from the Lord to be introduced to the idea of why Mr. Smith is married to Mr. Jones or to watch over time as Mr. Smith become Mrs. Smith? If not, at what age do you feel it is Biblically correct to allow those types of people to have authority over your children?
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Try to control YOUR emotions here, CF – I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with anybody in the LGBTQ community teaching my children, being friends with my children, or SLEEPING with my children. That’s their business.
Also, you’ve just interacted with a pro-choice advocate. All my children (and my husband, and most of the people I know!) are pro-choice advocates – it’s called recognizing that women have autonomy over their own bodies.
There is a real world out there, filled with ordinary people who don’t see EVIL everywhere they look.
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“Be proud of who you are and kindly explain to a simple Bible believer like me how God pleasing it is to have your children taught by homosexuals and murderers for it is certain if your children attend public schools or prep schools at least one of their teachers will be a homosexual and at least one of their teachers will be an abortion advocate.”
That is extremely defamatory. You can’t possibly accuse every public/private teacher of being a murderer, molester, or abortion advocate. You don’t know them from the man in the moon.
I thought I knew some of the “Christian Father/Husbands” I went to church with. It was rather shocking to find out one had been having sex with his eight-year-old daughter for two years. He is now serving a 35 year prison sentence. Another girl was being molested by her father and brothers. They are also in prison.
No body is telling you how to raise your family. Please stop defaming those who raise their families different from you. That is exactly the kind of rhetoric that is going to come back to bite homeschoolers, And I home school.
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“The patriarchal system is the problem here, Christian father. Others have written far more eloquently about the problems associated with it; you might want to read about the lost innocence of some of the young people who’ve experienced it.”
Of course this whole notion of patriarchy is wrong. Each believer, whether an adult or child, has a direct pipeline to God through prayer which is quite pleasing to God. Any believer, (man, woman, child) can learn about God by reading the Bible. Any “father” who thinks he is entitled to have his adult children support him is a fraud of a father for that is his job. Teaching your children the ways of the Lord do not result in subservience to an earthly father.
People like this Phillips guy or any other cult leader like Koresh, the Mormon guy that was arrested, Jim Jones, etc. are pathetic, insecure little boys who force their families (and anyone else that is willing or simply deceived) to worship them as God because they never became mature men and certainly do not fear God. Frequently these false teachers use their fake prophet role for illicit sexual gratification.
If Phillips were ever caught in his sexual abuse of this woman by a male that loves her, he would be crying like the 3 year old that he is. Or he could be so plumb crazy, he would start to tell the person he was actually holding the staff of Moses in his hand …
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A Christian Father/Husband,
It was my brother in law, not uncle.
You do have the right to do what you want. My point in this whole thing is to beware. Beware of the religious overtones for the reasons why you are making the decisions to homeschool. Is it because you truly believe that patriarchy is biblical?
In regards to isolation, that I am harping about…it is true. It’s a form of isolation. In Ecclesiastes we are told that there is nothing new under the sun. If you are afraid that your kids will be influenced by cell phone texting/sexting…whatever…don’t give them a cell phone.
All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with public school. They are not the evil empire that some espouse.
Remember the movie “Footloose”? Remember when people were burning books?
What did the pastor (in the movie) say about the burning of books?
The indoctrination, that I believe is happening, is the indoctrination that the world is “oh, so evil”, that it is a sin to be in the world. It isn’t a sin to be in the world. There is nothing new under the sun. Don’t be afraid of “the world”. Be “IN” the world.
Now, if you do not fall into this explanation, then by all means, disregard it.
Ed
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“I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with anybody in the LGBTQ community teaching my children, being friends with my children, or SLEEPING with my children”
I guess I mistakenly thought that this was a forum for Christians to speak out on Christian church abuse issues. Good luck promoting sodomy for your children.
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By the way, Christian Father/Husband…Moses was a murderer, before he ran away to Midian. The Apostle Paul was a murderer, too. And yet…guess what? They teach us. Just sayin.
Ed
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I was ready to write you a note saying, “There – we agree on something” rather light-heartedly until I saw your last comment.
Know what, CG? I had an inkling that you were intelligent. Your last comment, alas, dispels that notion. I’m wasting my time on you. Ed – best of luck with his holier-than-thou attitude.
And, P.S. The kids have all grown up and have kids of their own. I can guarantee you, they’ll never hear the word ‘evil’ (as our kids didn’t) or ‘sodomy’; you need to give that up. Oh, and I’m a non-believer so you get to write my ideas off completely now – ‘splains everything, doesn’t it?
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Hi chapmaned24:
Yes, but they repented of their sins.
We are all sinners and only have hope of Heaven because of what our Lord, Jesus Christ, was doing 2014 years ago for His father and us — before we were even born.
Have a wonderful Easter/Resurrection Sunday and be joyous of the fact that Christ died so that we may live with God one day. How great a love!
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A Christian Father/Husband,
You do realize that there are professing Christians who work in public schools from teaching to administrative positions?
Some of your remarks sound more like the accuser of the brethren.
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For the record, this blog is open to any and all. I’ve said it many times, but when my defamation story went viral, I received scores of e-mails from self-proclaimed atheists – people who had been hurt in church abuse situations who reached out to support me because they connected with my story. Please do not judge any of my readers here. That is not your job to do.
You might consider reading stories of adult children who were homeschooled and sheltered their whole lives. There are many of them coming out now saying their parents controlled them, didn’t allow them to experience failure or deal with conflict and they are having difficulty functioning as adults. There are also many of these adult children who are now rejecting their parents’ faith/way of life because it was forced upon them. Many of these adult children test the waters sexually, numb their pain by cutting, using drugs, eating disorders, etc. When their parents find out they are acting out this way, they are told to repent, and sometimes these adult children are cut off and shunned because of their “evil behavior.” I have spoken to those adult children. Many parents in the homeschool community have harmed their children by too much control and legalism. I hope you arent’t one of them because I really don’t want to have to e-mail or talk to another distraught and emotionally abandoned (or shunned) adult child. It makes me very, very sad, angry, and grumpy for days.
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Carmen, I hope to one day take a computer class on how to put an “ignore” button in the comment area. I think that would be beneficial on this blog at times.
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BTDT:
I did not say all teachers, I made the assertion that at least one teacher of any given child would openly espouse/practice what the Bible calls evil.
For example, I would hope that if a public school child asked a professing Christian teacher or administrator if homosexuality was a sin, that that professing Christian would tell them what the Bible says. However, since that would result in the loss of their job, I doubt that would be the case. That would be denying the Bible which is not good.
Just as Christians shouldn’t have jobs in an abortion mill, whorehouse or bar, perhaps public schools should be added to that list?
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A Christian Father/Husband,
And yet, we can’t find any teaching in scripture that we are to isolate in our own world, but we are taught that we are to be “IN” the world. Jesus was “IN” the world. We are taught to come together on the Lord’s Day, break bread, etc., yes, but not to be isolated from the world.
We are also taught that we are to be a light “IN” the darkness. We are taught that we are to do our good works for to be “SEEN” of men, in the world, that we be prepared to give reason for our faith…to the people “IN” the world. That we are to have a good reputation to those “IN” the world.
We are told that we are to FLEE sin, yes…and to not hang out with those who call themselves a brother or sister and does those things, but we are NOT told to not hang out with unbelievers that does those things. Notice verse 10.
1 Cor 5:9-13
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.
Ed
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Julie Anne, if you mean me, I apologize – some things just really get to me.
I also gave CF that advice about reading some of these young people’s stories. He’d be wise to take a walk in their shoes. I just read another Blog this morning (the one I referred to on the new thread) – HEARTBREAKING. I’d really like to swear over it. .
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Ed, This is the pile of nonsense that the Homeschool Movement has been spouting for years and years. Government schools are evil, don’t subject your children to the devil, yada yada. With as much abuse that I’ve seen in churches, I am not so sure that churches are safer. At least when abuse happens outside of church, we can somewhat excuse the behavior because they were not Believers. But when abuse happens within churches and Christian groups, it messes with people’s heads because Christians don’t behave like this. This is when many experience more kinds of abuse: sexual, emotional, and spiritual, because many times the abuser ties in spirituality as he is abusing. Talk about messing someone up spiritually!
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Hi chapmaned24:
I agree 100% with what you wrote, we should not be isolated and should be in the world, but not of the world.
I believe there is a great deal of difference between a 3-14 year old child and a 16-25 year old child.
I have a 19 year old who can bench over 400 pounds — I have no qualms about his exposure to the world.
Amongst others, my youngest is 3 years old. He’ll be staying under our wings until he can fly on his own.
Have a nice weekend.
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carmen, I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to say that an ignore button might help any of us who have difficulty with a particular commenter so we won’t get all worked up by them. I’m not wanting to ignore you. Your comments have been fine. Carry on. 🙂
If you have links to share, just go to the browser field, highlight the link, right click on it, and then copy and paste it here. If there is a formatting issue, I’ll fix it.
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“I did not say all teachers, I made the assertion that at least one teacher of any given child would openly espouse/practice what the Bible calls evil.”
Please, provide links to back up that statement. It’s defamatory.
“Just as Christians shouldn’t have jobs in an abortion mill, whorehouse or bar, perhaps public schools should be added to that list?”
Says who? You? Again, that’s simply defamatory. Some homeschool households I know should be compared to a whorehouse.
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Julie Anne,
Yes, and it also sets up the “self righteous” that Carmen talks about, that will stand outside of “abortion mills”, “judging” the people who are “outside” the church. We are told not to judge those people, but to judge those inside the church. But we see the self righteous judging those outside the church all the time. Preaching the gospel is not about finger pointing. It’s an understanding that we were once those people, and should have empathy, not judgement.
Ed
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A Christian Father/Husband,
You had said:
“I believe there is a great deal of difference between a 3-14 year old child and a 16-25 year old child.”
I don’t. When I was in school, some people were doing drugs. Weed, shrooms, Quaaludes, acid, etc. I was not influenced in the least. Why? Because my parents taught me right from wrong.
That’s the point. If you teach your 3 year old the Ten Commandments, etc., then what’s the freaking problem?
Ed
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I was a student in the public school system from Kindergarten through High School graduation. Then I went to a Baptist college where I earned two degrees. Amazingly, the public school system was the only system where I was NOT groped, fondled, physically or sexually abused.
All my abuse happened at home by several family members, and at church by a deacon, and later by fellow comrades-in-arms, and then by my now ex-husbands. Only in the public schools was I safe.
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I just finally had a moment to watch the video of the interview with Doug and Beall. I couldn’t possibly disagree more with Jen Fishburnes assessment for those of you who are following her blog. I thought Beall looked visually distressed in the first part of the interview, like she was about two seconds away from a panic attack. I have seen that look before and have felt that way before. She looked like it took every ounce of her will to force a smile. I am still on the fence about Beall, she has possibly said some terrible things but I think if she did it is purely an attempt to survive. She has 8 children and no way to support them, plus her husband is Doug Phillips. I can just imagine the things he is saying to her. I have no doubt that Doug forced her to write any and all emails and put her name at the bottom. Doug is a smart guy, he needed those emails sent without his name on it. Perhaps Beall wasn’t even aware of them. I think we should cut Beall some slack for now,. Lets remember that Doug has been putting on an Oscar award winning performance for years and most people were fooled, how much easier would it be to fool his wife who has everything to lose?
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Christian Dad, I’d like to address a few things you wrote:
I think that age is old enough to understand something: that Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones aren’t necessarily horrible, dangerous people. That even though they’re different from most other couples the child knows, they might still care for each other and their neighbours very much. Perhaps even more than some who call themselves Christians.
Perhaps. However, I wouldn’t reject anyone as a teacher of my children simply on those grounds. Just because someone is gay or pro-choice doesn’t mean he or she is necessarily a harmful person, or a bad teacher. And someone who professes to be a Christian (like Phillips) isn’t necessarily harmless, or a good teacher.
I’m a Christian, and I work in public school, teaching English. And then there’s JA, who volunteers with a high school choir, as I understand. It’s not the same as being a missionary, but I’m still doing my best to shine the light of Christ’s love into the lives of the kids I meet. Do you really think that’s wrong?
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Will WP let you put an ignore button on comments?
I am trying to stay out of the current argument, but it is SOOO hard!
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Wendell,
This WP theme does not allow it. I think I have to get away from the “canned” themes in order to use plug-ins and all of that techy stuff. One day . . . .
Oh, that will work for readers, but not for moderators. LOL. oh well. Such is life.
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Chapmaned: You owe me an apology for accusing me of false patriotism and calling my religion a cult before you knew what I believe or how i have served in both the military and civil spheres.
Gary W: if you also want to attack my constitutionally-protected God-given rights of free exercise, then you are also my_____(insert word which is disfavoured, by the mod, so i won’t use it.)
Julie Anne; great blog. keep up the good work. I probably won’t post anymore, but may read it from time to time.
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Keith, he did not call YOUR religion a cult. He called that particular sect, such as those led by the likes of Phillips and Gothard et al., who span the patriarchal movement that have infiltrated already established innocent homeschooling families a cult.
Everyone has a right to educate their children the best and safest way they feel led to do. What they don’t have a right to do is to exploit their freedom by using that freedom as a license to abuse their family membets and call it God’s will.
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Keith – would you please point to the timestamp of the comment where Ed called your “religion” a cult? Because I believe he was fine with LCMS.
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Waiting; Quatsch…i read it myself. He launched straight into it, and also with the false patriot garbage. I say i am sorry readily, but have found that even self-styled Christians have difficulty doing so. I am tired of getting on here using my real name and boxing shadows and pseudonyms. This really isn’t a place i should even be.
“Abuse of family members” I have sent quite a few abusers to prison, including rapists, child molesters, etc. so i have done my part over the years. i don’t care if the perverts claim a particular religious belief or not. god doesn’t will sin, and sexual assault is sin. the church should kick them out, and the civil authority should wield the sword.
Happy Easter!
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Keith,
Indirectly, I did apologize. When you identified yourself as a Lutheran, I backed off. I have no problem with you at all. Your religious belief system is not what I was addressing from the onset. About 90 percent the focus is on the Calvin side of the house, not the Luther side. I am non-denominiation. I do not adhere to any reformers doctrines at all. My differences with the Lutherans are extremely minor, and not even worth a debate. There was confusion in our debate, and, since you rightly demand an apology, I am sorry!!
Ed
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Julie Anne: It was before he even knew i was LCMS. In the old days this was called prejudice, i.e. judging a person or thing without actually knowing what one was judging. He also launched into the “false patriotism” allegation without any foundation whatsoever.
Anyway, Easter week is when we should be focusing on the sacrifice of our gracious Lord.
Happy Easter!
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I thought this thread was about the lawsuit??? It seems to have gotten very off topic.
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Ed Chapman is using his real name. But he is not a spiritual abuse survivor.
There is a very good reason why many use pseudonyms here. Sometimes it is a very dangerous thing to publicly discuss your negative church experience. After using her real name to post a comment here, my friend, Meaghan, was added to my defamation lawsuit.
Get this, I have people contacting me privately because they are so afraid of commenting publicly even using a pseudonym. This is serious business.
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Too much testosterone up in here today. Put your gun down. Don’t forget, this woman (<—- pointing to myself) is also a ten year veteran and expert marksman. 😉
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Chapmaned; Apology accepted. I don’t always pick up on implication or indirect statements.
wantingthetruth: it got somewhat off topic because some are of the opinion that Christians should not have the right to homeschool, though this is protected by the constitution of the US. Apparently the reasoning is that some fringe people (at least fringe to me) are perverts and child molesters. i won’t give up my Free Exercise rights because some evil pervert abuses people. The immediate solution to me is to prosecute the abusers if they have committed a crime, not infringe on constitional rights. Apparently these fringe groups exercise a form of thought control on people.
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Waiting: Asking for an apology has nothing to do with testosterone. Apology given and accepted. I don’t know what hormones have to do with any of this. Frankly, Calvinists, Baptists, Non-denominationalists, Pentecostals, and now patriarchalists sometimes confuse me. i think we use some of the same terms, but with different meanings.
Re; anonymity of abuse victims i have no problem with this.
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@Keith Blakenship I understand. I for one was not homeschooled and was sexually abused as a child by a family member along with close to a dozen other children. This young man had been sexually abuse as a child himself. I have done extensive reading and research on sexual abuse and sexual predators, homeschooling has absolutely nothing to do with it period! It’s a non issue. I also should mention that my children are Homeschooled 🙂
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Wantingthetruth,
What is the lawsuit based on? A criminal act that was based on a religious patriarchal belief system.
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Keith,
My big beef with the public school system is the lack of teaching free market economics. I am not talking about the Facism of bailing out big banks and the leadership walking away zillionaires or the government starting ‘green businesses’ that fail and they walk away millionaires. That is not free market.
The public schools in my district teach the road to serfdom k-12. This makes sense because they survive (and pay huge admin salaries) off Federal money. The teachers are paid next to nothing. The big money is in admin salaries all the way up to the Dept of Ed which keeps it a very top down mandated system which beats creativity and innovation out of everyone. Much like many tyrannical churches. They teach collectivism for economics. I am really hoping the non fringe homeschool kids are learning about free markets. The fringe homeschoolers in patriarchy are being taught tyranny as normal. They are not being taught to be independent thinkers but to obey some leader. I am all about teaching children to be independent thinkers and think through every issue, position, etc.
As for the Christian stuff? I can explain the unbelievers easily to my kids. I do have a harder time explaing believers who do evil to others, though. (wink)
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I am glad I came back to this thread to see that Ed and Keith have reconciled. We are people of strong opinions here. I try not to get carried away expressing mine, not always successfully. I disagree with both of you on some things and agree with you on many others. I think it is good for Christians to debate. I have learned from both of you. On the most important things though we do agree and it is clear to me that both of you are my brothers in Christ. Both of you have good hearts and I am glad I am here to have met you!
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Waitingforthetrumpet2,
[With my hands up in the air]
Please don’t shoot the messenger!! Good one!!
Ed
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Well, one thing this thread has done is to fill up my inbox repeatedly! Sometimes it has gotten so hot, it singed my fingers.
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Hahaha Ed. You know I love you guys. Happy Easter. 🙂
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You nailed it there, Keith!
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wantingthetruth (19.8:48am) regarding Beall. She is acting similarly to my mother, both throughout our childhood of abuse by her husband-pastor, and also when we children grew up and started talking.
I carry huge sympathy for my mother and that was all I felt, initially. Being married to my father was crazy-making. Layers and layers of lies. While at home, being treated with as much contempt as her children, while in public treated as a well-loved pastor’s wife.
In order to stay living with my father, my mother was an enabler and a participant. It could be no other way. When as an adult, I finally talked to her about the abuse, she was aghast and blithery. Even though the abuse of her children was often done in front of her (and some to her), she said she had no idea.
After my father died, she minimized all the abuse until it fit in a shoe box and then locked the door to the past. And because she wouldn’t/couldn’t face it, she has maintained the manipulative destructive system her husband put in place; decades later, she is still living out of it. It’s awful!
My point is that one can feel both sympathetic for the pain-filled life that Beall must be living and also recognize that she is culpable. She made decision after decision, for decades, to stay and support a narcissistic man. She knew how badly her husband treated interns, how he lied, how he devalued women, etc. I’m sure she was treated badly herself. She knew about Lourdes. Even in their legalistic culture, she has Biblical grounds for divorce. She has options for support.
Beall has become delusional from fear, I suspect. I wish she could find the courage for honesty, as I long for my mother. But when people insist on remaining in crazy-making land, there is nothing others can do.
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Patrice – thanks much for sharing the example of your mother as it relates to Beall and her enabling. It’s a bit odd – we can feel bad for them, yet they themselves can become complicit as well. It’s a complicated system of abuse/enabling, numbing to survive, yet many are able to leave this system and become healthy. I hope that she does leave. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. She’s standing by her man.
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Christian Father/Husband says “Just as Christians shouldn’t have jobs in an abortion mill, whorehouse or bar, perhaps public schools should be added to that list?”
Well, I suggest that a better case could be made for putting organized churches on the list. Sure, abuses occur in public schools, but they also occur in every realm of life, including organized religion in all it’s manifestations. Part of what makes organized religion so horrifying pernicious is that authoritarian leaders take advantage of people’s trust. Even worse, when some religious leader abuses that trust and takes advantage of somebody’s daughter (or son or spouse), all their “Godly” and influential friends will come to the rescue of the abusers. There is no end to the shaming and blaming of the victim, the minimization of the seriousness of the wrong done, and on and on and on.
I am NOT saying all Christian organizations are breeding grounds of abuse. Obviously they aren’t. But I really would be interested in knowing the statistics comparing the incidence of sexual abuse by pastors as compared to public school teachers.
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@Patrice:
Until they strut proudly away from The Last Judgment into Hell and lock the doors from the Inside. Because THEY are Right and everyone else (including God) is WRONG.
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@BTDT re ChristianDad:
So to protect them you hothouse them in bubble-wrap? XianDad, I hope you plan on outliving all your kids; otherwise they’ll be thrown out into the “Bible calls evil” world with no defense or ability to cope when you kick off or go into the nursing home. (Like a kid kept germ-free and quarantined and reeking of disinfectant by his mom who dies of anaphylactic shock at 18 when someone cracks open a jar of peanuts fifty meters upwind.)
(P.S. I Smell Homeschooler — the type whose kids later tell their story of abuse on Homeschoolers Anonymous.)
So teaching school is morally equivalent to doing abortions or turning tricks in a whorehouse. Why not add dealing drugs and make it three-for-three?
I saw this dynamic in a shepherding group some 30 years ago. The list of What Is Forbidden just keeps getting longer and longer; the only thing constant is that what is not forbidden remains Absolutely Compulsory.
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@AChristianFather:
Thank you, HUG, for those replies to CF – I assumed, because of his prevailing attitude about non-believers, that any logical retort on my part would be discredited. (you know, devil’s spawn and all that rot)
Oh, and I have just returned from a church gathering along the shore – a Sunrise Service – where our little village prepares breakfast for two congregations of worshippers. The Easter bonnet covered my horns. . ..:)
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“The Easter bonnet covered my horns”
May I borrow your bonnet? 🙂 Seriously, for someone with horns you did more to celebrate the holiday than we did. My kiddos did get some gift bags of Easter candy, and the sugar rush is in full swing around here. Beyond that, I can’t wait for Monday.
Thank you for supporting those of us who have been hurt. You are far more Christ-like than many who claim to be Christians.
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I saw this dynamic in a shepherding group some 30 years ago. The list of What Is Forbidden just keeps getting longer and longer; the only thing constant is that what is not forbidden remains Absolutely Compulsory.
So everything was either forbidden OR required, with no Romans 14 areas at all? That’s interesting. Sounds similar to Gothard’s ever-increasing regimen.
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Admin note: People have been asking about a way to support Lourdes financially. I have been in contact with Lourdes’ attorney, David Gibbs, today and he is looking into a good way to do that. I mentioned Paypal or “GoFundMe” as possibilities for an easy way to donate $$ online. If you have any other ideas, please post a comment or shoot me an e-mail (spiritualsb@ gmail dot com).
JA
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“If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?”
This is a civil lawsuit, the remedies, if any, will be monetary. I question the motivation of Lourdes, Nolan and Gibbs.
Gibbs should be doing this pro bono, if at all. Lourdes should promise that any damages be donated to a worthy cause of Christ. No one should be making any money off of this.
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I hope during the discovery process, they find enough evidence to withstand a criminal indictment. In the meantime, I hope she gets every dime he’s got.
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I am with you, waitingforthetrumpet! I feel very strongly about this. In the absence of criminal charges being filed, a civil suit is the only way for victims to get any kind of justice. It upsets me no end that abusers can do any horrific thing they want, but when they are sued for damages, someone will come along and want the victim and her attorney to receive any no compensation or else they aren’t saintly enough. As far as I am concerned, Lourdes deserves monetary damages for the years she lost to a false teacher who used her sexually and for unpaid labor in his home, who discouraged her from gaining a college education or working for gainful employment to help her family. There is also psychological damage; therapy is expensive.
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I second your comment, Marsha.
Those who sling mud at Lourdes for asking for damages (financial compensation) for the abuse she suffered are just singing a variant of the “Let’s Blame The Victim” song. The variant goes ‘Victims should be so saintly that they never seek civil justice, and never want the abuser to make reparation.”
Phillips ought to make reparation to Lourdes for the way he abused her; money is an ‘arms length removed’ way of making reparation. And Phillips certainly needs to suffer some consequences for what he has done to Lourdes. While God will deliver ultimate consequences, there is nothing wrong with the civil courts delivering consequences as well. That’s what the Mosaic code laws and Romans 13 were about, so we know that God approves of justice being delivered by the appropriate mechanisms of civil society.
Those who want to admonish Lourdes for suing Phillips for damages ought to butt out! They are no friends of victims.
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To Mick’s comment May 1st —
Phillips has demonstrated such heinous behavior that he clearly has merited being called an unbeliever. Look at this passage:
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
This precept clearly teaches that Phillips ought to be purged forthwith from the church, and that we do not need to consider him as a believer. In fact, if we treat people like Doug Phillips as believers, we are disobeying 1 Corinthians 5. We must purge such people from the church without delay.
The Galatians verse you quoted, Mick, does not apply to the case of Phillips and Lourdes, because Phillips is not a believer: he has been greedy, a swindler, an idolator, sexually immoral, and a reviler — look at how he is still accusing Lourdes of lying, and how he is threatening to sue three of the men who admonished him for his sin!
Mick, the very fact that you tried to apply that scripture to the Phillips/Lourdes case shows that you are thinking like an abuser or an abuser apologist. The argument you raised is one I’ve heard many times before; it doesn’t hold up.
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Exactly, Barbara. This woman likely would have been married with children now, instead of now having gone thru a recent rushed wedding. How can you make up for stolen years? A little monetary compensation would help ease at least some financial burden (after court and attorney fees are removed). True repentance involves restitution. It sure doesn’t look forthcoming on Phillips’ initiative. Let’s hope the courts “encourage” the right thing by awarding the judgment in Lourdes’ favor.
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Responding to Barbara from May 2nd.
Easy there Barbara. The reason I quoted the Galations verse was because of the spirit behind it. Christians ought not to be running to the courts for satisfaction. To the extent they can work things out without a governmental tribunal, the better.
Regarding Phillips, I don’t think you or I know whether he’s an unbeliever. He’s obviously a sinner. So am I and so are you.
I don’t believe I said anything in support or defense of Phillips’ abuse. So you’re wrong to think I’m thinking like an abuser or an abuser apologist. I think you’re just angry I didn’t pony up some lynching mob lingo.
I will say this — I am really surprised at the number of Christians with blood-lust for this guy. (Note: in case that last statement confused you, that’s not a defense of Phillips’ sins and abuse.) BTW, I have a theory on the fever-pitch frenzy for some of the commentors on this site and other sites to see Phillips swing on the gallows. I’d be happy to share it if you are interested.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you on the church discipline view.
And what about my comments on the money?
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Mick, I addressed your comments on the money and Barbara seconded my comment so I think you can refer to what I said. I for one do not want to hear your theory about why we are all condemning Phillips. This is a site that supports victims of spiritual abuse; Lourdes is our sister in Christ. You may have some other idea but abuse survivors are used to being condemned for one specious reason or another.
As for whether Phillips is or isn’t a real Christian at this moment, I don’t know. I agree that we all sin but we don’t continue in the same sin for years and years after being saved by grace. It is pretty hard work to ignore the working of the Holy Spirit in one’s life year after year. He says he us now repentant but the close friends and fellow pastor who came to speak to him and ask him to stop what he was doing were called deceivers and he has threatened to sue them for trying to destroy his ministry. So that is why the idea that he is a real Christian and cannot be sued doesn’t sit right with us.
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“Easy there Barbara. The reason I quoted the Galations verse was because of the spirit behind it. Christians ought not to be running to the courts for satisfaction. To the extent they can work things out without a governmental tribunal, the better.”
But Phillips himself used the civil courts to sue or “mediate” with other “Christians”.
“Regarding Phillips, I don’t think you or I know whether he’s an unbeliever. He’s obviously a sinner. So am I and so are you.”
You are a Christian and you are still sinning like Phillips did? Well, stop it! What on earth do you think the Cross was for? So you could continue doing evil? Jesus Christ overcame that for us. We are to be “new creatures in Christ”. Born again. You don’t have to live a life of continual sinning. We are to walk in the light.
“I will say this — I am really surprised at the number of Christians with blood-lust for this guy. (Note: in case that last statement confused you, that’s not a defense of Phillips’ sins and abuse.) BTW, I have a theory on the fever-pitch frenzy for some of the commentors on this site and other sites to see Phillips swing on the gallows. I’d be happy to share it if you are interested.”
The cognitive dissonance in this paragraph are mind numbing. I don’t expect you to see it.
“And what about my comments on the money?”
if he had to pay in her say, hams, would that be ok with you? Monetary damages are to teach a lesson not only to Doug but those like him out there using Jesus as a business plan.
Doug loves money. My guess is he has some overseas accounts. He is not stupid. I hope Torres gets as much as possible if she wins. She will pay her lawyer about 75% of it so she won’t get rich. Sadly.
unfortunately for you, there are evil people dressing up as Christians. That makes the civil courts necessary for us, too. We EXPOSE evil to help protect others.
And Mick, this situation is not a DISPUTE. You do not understand the passage. Torres’ goat was not grazing on Dougs land.
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“I have a theory on the fever-pitch frenzy for some of the commentors on this site and other sites to see Phillips swing on the gallows.”
A bit of an exaggeration, don’t you think? Holding someone accountable isn’t even close to wishing them dead.
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