Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories

***

The moral scandal of mega-church pastor Bob Coy leads others to come forward to tell their personal stories of corruption and abuse among the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches.

***

***

You may have heard of the recent scandal by Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale Pastor Bob Coy.  The church elders called a special church meeting on Sunday where it was announced:

“On April 3, 2014, Bob Coy resigned as Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, effective immediately, after confessing to a moral failing in his life which disqualifies him from continuing his leadership role at the church he has led since its founding in 1985.” (Source)

58-yr old Bob Coy with his wife founded Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale nearly 30 years ago. The church reportedly has over 20,000 attendees and a staff of over 1,000 at 10 different campuses.

Michael Newnham at Phoenix Preacher blog reported:

We have confirmed  that Coy has admitted to at least two affairs in the past year alone and has had a long standing “problem with pornography”.

Word of this scandal was first leaked in an anonymous comment on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog run by Alex Grenier.

Alex Grenier began Calvary Chapel Abuse blog four years ago to go public with accounts of alleged abuse and corruption among the Calvary Chapel family of churches and to give others an opportunity to share their stories.  Incidentally, Alex Grenier was sued by his step-father, Calvary Chapel Visalia Bob Grenier, for publicly speaking out about alleged abuse he, his brothers (physical and sexual), church staff, and church members (spiritual abuse) at Calvary Chapel Visalia incurred.  This defamation lawsuit is now in appeals.  (Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier Lawsuit and Sex Abuse)

Alex Grenier had this to say on his blog about the Coy scandal and the lack of accountability at Calvary Chapel churches in general:

Coy will suffer loss for his sin. He was a big boy and took risks and made the choices he made and now it’s time to pay the piper. Many don’t get caught in Calvary Chapel and they get away with their sin for many years. My step-dad is one such example. I have more sympathy for a “moral” issue like Coy’s appears to be than I do for someone who hurts kids…but regardless, we’re all sinners and we all need Jesus. None of us get “transformed” and none of us can meet the standard…even after we’re supposedly saved. That is the great myth of Calvary Chapel’s brand of Christianity*…there is no such thing as the “transformation” gospel. We’re all still sinners after we’re saved and we’re all just as capable of sinning as we were before we were saved…which is why we NEED ACCOUNTABILITY measures in place to protect kids and to have open finances to keep things on the up-and-up with the Jesus money. (Bob Coy to resign as senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale: Update 4/6/14)

This scandal has brought scores of people to Alex’s site, wreaking havoc on the server. At one point there were over 3,700 visitors at one time. Alex said that this amount of traffic is far more than when the story broke of Chuck Smith’s death. But large traffic is not new to CCA. It continues even when there is not a consistent flow of new articles. Why is that????

***

It is important to note that Calvary Chapel churches use the Moses Model of church governance. This system of governance, I believe, creates an environment ripe for corruption and abuse to take place because there is little to no accountability among the pastors. Here is part of an interview from 2007 in which Calvary Chapel founder Chuck Smith (now deceased) describes the Moses Model system:

“We take the model from the work that God established in the nation of Israel,” Smith says. “Moses was the leader appointed by God. He took 70 men, and they assisted Moses in overseeing the mundane types of issues that developed within the nation. There was the priesthood under Aaron.” Similarly, he says, “we have assistant pastors, and they look to me as the senior pastor. I’m responsible to the Lord. We have a board of elders. We go over the budget. The people recognize that God has called me to be the leader of this fellowship. We are not led by a board of elders. I feel my primary responsibility is to the Lord. And one day I’m going to answer to him, not to a board of elders.” (Source)

For more information, including diagrams, on the Moses Model system and why it is problematic, please see this article:  Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, The Moses Model: Let the Little Dogs Bark!

**

It’s interesting to note that in this franchise of churches of which each church is governed independently, they sure know how to come together quickly and efficiently to do damage control and internet scrubbing when there is a scandal. Michael Newnham made this observation:

There is no more bizarre, anti-Christian ritual in evangelicalism than the expunging of a man’s life work from the church and the internet when he falls. Coy has been deleted from the CCA website and they are wiping the CCFTL site as fast as they can. (Things I Think)

When you have a corrupt system, sometimes leaders will face the consequences of their sin or moral failure, sometimes they go on with life and continue their ministry work without getting caught.  In the comment section at Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, a personal story from Lianne shows us what it’s like when a leader does not get caught and she, the wife, and now victim, is left to face the consequences of that corrupt system.

***

I am a former CC wife. Former is the key word! My ex husband was in ministry in South Florida. He was heavily influenced by CCCM Pastors who viewed me as too worldly to be his wife. They planted many lies in his head about me that had no merit but that he very much took to heart.

What I did not know was two years before we had met, my ex husband had confessed to the head Pastor his sexual issues including visiting strip clubs and buying pornography. His punishment was a month off and then right back into Ministry. Not once during marriage counseling did either one of them disclose this very important information to me.

What took place after our wedding was nothing short of a living hell. I had no clue the seriousness of his sexual addiction. He was still being encouraged to be in full time ministry. Yet I was the one being blamed for any problems he had.

We were later transferred to a Central Florida CC where he was on staff. The Head Pastor walked around with body guards! If you attempted to approach him, you were immediately swarmed by them. It was rather ridiculous considering the size of the CC. This is where I became very disillusioned with CC.

When you attend church as a member, it is far different than attending as a spouse of a staff member. You here [sic] them talk about people, you hear them being petty and cheap, spending money else where rather than helping others. It’s where you see church being ran as a business rather than as a place to help and minister to others.

My ex husbands sexual issues continued to run rampet [sic], so much so he was caught at church having viewed several pornographic material. Once again, nothing was done. I was scolded told I needed to be more sexual for my husband everything would be ok!

This same year I discovered his former Pastor was forced to resign from his position due to sexual harassment of another staff members wife. What happened after was sickening. He was called back to CCCM by the founder to serve as Associate Pastor. He was eventually fired from CC but not until the damage was done.

My ex was a fraud. He preached dating wasn’t of God. He preached not to be alone with any girl or to hold hands. Not kissing before marriage. Yet behind close doors he was having disgusting sexual conversations with woman online and had an active membership to a pornography store in town. Yes everyone makes mistakes and everyone sins. But that is why God holds Pastors and teachers to a higher standard than anyone else. If you can’t live it yourself, you have no business preaching it to anyone else. It’s spiritually damaging to believe in someone, trust someone, especially with your faith and to find out they are living a double life.

It took me years to get over the emotional brainwashing and abuse that took place while I was with him. Total character association placing all his faults on me because the church needed him. For a long time I believed I was at fault. I wasn’t good enough but God finally opened my eyes to the lies I was believing. He never intended for me to be hurt and used the way this man treated me. My ex chose it, not God. He will one day at judgement answer to God for what he put me through. My ex would not get help. Would not stop lying or cheating. He didn’t want me to leave, but he also did not plan to repent and fix what he was doing.

After much prayer, I took the out the Lord gave me and divorced him. I am finally healed from the damage both physically, emotionally and spiritually inflicted by these CC pastors.

I attended CCFTL for many years. Even before it was the mega church it is today. I loved Pastor Bob! Still do. I am very saddened to hear he himself was living a double standard. I ache for his wife and kids. It feels like a nuclear bomb is dropped on you when you discover your Pastor, husband and spiritual leader is betraying you. That he cared more about his needs than keeping the sacred vows he made to you before God. CCFTL’s staff did the right thing by asking for his resignation. When you marry a Pastor you would believe you’d be safe from dealing with any of this. After all, no one knows the Bible inside and out like they do, especially CC pastor’s who pride themselves on commentary and chapter by chapter vs by vs to keep it all in context. Unfortunately it’s not the case at all.

***

Related links:

Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Grenier: Stories of Abuse As Told by His Children

Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier Files Lawsuit against ..

Alex Grenier Responds to Notice of Imminent Lawsuit by Calvary Chapel Visalia & Pastor Bob Grenier

 

275 comments on “Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories

  1. Ed

    And I appreciated your responces to Matthew this week.

    I saw his comments to me last Saturday. And did NOT know if I would respond. The way your conversation went with Matthew I was kinda glad I did not respond right away. 🙂

    It was fun for me watching the back and forth…
    NO matter what Bible verses you quoted -They were never good enough. 🙂
    You and Lydia said plenty but Matthew was NOT listening.

    And, so, yesterday, I thought I would ask him some questions…
    Which he does NOT seem to want to answer…

    Like – Do we dis-miss, ignore, James also? He said the same as Paul…

    And – Do we dis-miss, ignore, Peter also? You mentioned 2 Peter 3:15-16.

    Who called Paul – “**our beloved brother Paul**

    And spoke about “to **the wisdom** given unto him”

    “written unto you” – “in ALL HIS EPISTLES”

    ———-

    That’s why I asked him. And, I’ll ask Matthew again… 😉

    Matthew – If you’re correct? And Paul, is a phoney self appointed apostle?

    1 – What do we do with ALL of Paul’s letters?
    2 – Are his letters ALL wrong? Is everything Paul writes to be dismissed?
    3 – If NOT ALL of what Paul writes is wrong, who determines what is okay?
    4 – How do I determine which of Paul’s writings is okay?

    1a – What do we do with James’ letter? James said the same thing as Paul.
    **Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,**

    1b – What do we do with Peters letters?
    Peter thought Paul had **the wisdom** given unto him”
    “in ALL HIS EPISTLES”

    Pro 20:17
    Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
    but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

    Like

  2. Ed

    I’ve had some doubts about Paul in the past. About 10 – 12 years ago. Started to question some things that Paul said because they did NOT seem the agree with Jesus. At least they did NOT agree, or were different at that time.

    I had a list of differences that I would challenge folks with trying to figure stuff out and test the waters.. Even asked some folks – “What if Paul is a heretic?” “What if Paul could NOT wipe out the believers with persecution so he joined this merry band to destroy them from inside?” And, I could make a pretty good case. 😉

    Well, you can imagine the responses. All hell would break loose. Just questioning Paul got some folks pretty mad. But, I also met some folks who were questioning Paul also. So, at first, I did NOT mind Matthew going through his open dislike for Paul. It was a path I went through.

    The benefit for me at the time was – I started to go more and more to the Gospels. Going to Jesus first when researching various topics. Wanted to first know what Jesus had to say about a subject. And that caused me to start quoting Jesus, and what he said, more and more. And, in turn, that caused me to start pointing people to Jesus, more and more, and what Jesus said.

    I read and re-read what Jesus said, and did, and taught His Disciples.
    And, it was a lot different then what I learned in “The Religious system.”

    I like Jesus – A lot… 😉 “The Religious system” NOT so much… 😉

    And, in falling in love with Jesus again, returning to my first love…
    I NO longer have a problem, or doubts, about Paul, and his writings.
    Some things might be “hard to be understood” as Peter said…
    But, I now can understand some things Paul said, I had a problem with.

    Jesus is the best teacher, The “ONE” Teacher – Yes?

    2 Peter 3:15-16.
    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
    even as **our beloved brother Paul**
    also according to **the wisdom** given unto him hath written unto you;
    As also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things;
    in which are **some things hard to be understood,**
    which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
    as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    So, for me, by spending more and more time with Jesus…
    And desiring to be one of His Disciples…
    Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man – eventually…
    I bcame more and more at peace with **our beloved brother Paul**
    and **the wisdom.** – **in ALL HIS EPISTLES** and what he wrote.

    Today – When I do NOT understand Paul, I can put it on a shelf…
    And wait for Jesus to explain it to me – On a need to know basis… 😉

    Jesus is the best teacher, The “ONE” Teacher – Yes?

    Like

  3. A. Amos Love,

    Not only all that, but time and time again, Paul quoted the Law and the Prophets time and time again, in order to show people that Jesus not only claimed to be the Christ, but that by the Law and the Prophets, that Jesus is the Christ.

    What did Jesus say about Peter’s revelation that Jesus is the Christ?  He said that it is of the Father that revealed it to him.  Everyone from that generation of JEWS were denying Christ, but not Paul.

    Why would Paul declare that Jesus is the Christ if he didn’t believe it?  That is a death sentence in itself for him.  A Pharisee declaring Jesus is the Christ?  Think about the ramifications.  His fellow Jews did want to kill him.  Now we have Matthew that probably wants to burn Paul at the stake, as well.

    What I find interesting about the Bible is that the atheists are smart.  They find things in the Bible all the time that, if you are unlearned, are indeed contradictory. 

    You give Matthew a bit of a pass, and I understand why you do, as you went thru it yourself.  Well, in a sense, I am the same with atheists, too.  It makes me search the scriptures again, and again in order to see things from a “deeper” level, instead of just what is seen from the surface.  

    That is where I learned, and it took time, to see things in the spiritual, not the carnal.  Carnal things are seen, spiritual things are unseen, or invisible.

    We all know that John, in the gospel of John, was the spiritual speaker.  He went pretty deep in his spiritual insight than the other three gospels did.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  4. Ed

    Yes – “the atheists are smart. They find things in the Bible all the time that, if you are unlearned, are indeed contradictory.”

    I also enjoy a challenge, dis-agreement, someone pointing out what looks to be contradictory. It causes me to go to Jesus and ask different questions.

    Pro 25:2
    It is the glory of God **to conceal a thing:**
    but the honour of kings is **to search out a matter.**

    Ec 1:13
    And I gave my heart to seek and **search out by wisdom**
    concerning ALL THINGS that are done under heaven:
    this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man
    to be exercised therewith.

    I’ve just come to the place where I believe the Bible is written…
    Just the way God wanted it written…

    But – You have to get it from Jesus for yourself. 😉 NO middle man…

    And I’m encouraged by Jesus **to search out a matter.**

    John 6:45
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…

    Deuteronomy 4:36
    Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
    that *He might instruct thee:*

    For matthew, I was hoping his decision to “Follow Jesus” and NOT Paul…
    Actually had a benefit for him, as it did for me.

    That’s why I asked Matthew…
    1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others should follow Jesus?
    4 – How would I know if someone is following Jesus? And NOT Paul?

    Which Matthew does NOT answer… 😦

    Matthew
    What is the most important benefit for you…
    What is the greatest benefit for you…

    To Follow Jesus? And NOT Paul?

    Like

  5. Dear A. Amos Love,
    Do you dismiss the words of Jesus, recorded by the Apostle Matthew (chapter 22) and Mark (Chapter 12) about which one is the first and greatest most important commandment? Did Jesus or the Original Apostles ever say that James or Paul were appointed Apostles?

    Like

  6. A. Amos Love,

    Yes!!!!!!  God hides things in the scriptures…for the purpose of us finding the TREASURE that is hidden within it.

    Many people think that the Bible is “straight forward”, aka Calvinists.  They talk so much about “exegesis” (We talk about Jesus, not exegesis) and historical context and their preaching is expository systematic.  You will never find TREASURE with that.  You will never find the things that God hid.  The Pharisees couldn’t find it either.  They were not focused on the spiritual.  Bu then again, they weren’t looking. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  7. Matthew,

    Did you miss the one that Jesus states that if you did these things to the people, that you did it for him?  Jesus is God, right?

    If you love your neighbor, you are loving God. 

    But…you just don’t get it, do you?

    Love is our good works.  You are to visit Jesus in jail.  You are to give Jesus a drink of water.  You are to clothe Jesus.  You are to take Jesus into your home, because he is homeless.

    Can you read between the lines?  Obviously not.  If you did this to any of God’s creation, you did it TO Jesus.  LOVE.  If you love people, you are loving God.  It isn’t two…it is ONE!!!

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  8. Matthew Perri

    You write @ MAY 18, 2014 @ 2:30 PM…

    “got a Masters Degree from Dallas Theological Seminary,
    and worked briefly on pastoral staff in two churches.”

    1 – Do you call yourself, or have the “Title” pastor today?

    Like

  9. Half this thread is now Matthew Peri & ChapmanEd going back and forth like those two kids on that old TV sitcom “Julia”:
    “DID NOT!”
    “DID SO!”
    “DID NOT!”
    “DID SO!”
    Or the old God’s Creatures list as it melted down in a never-ending two-party flamewar years ago.

    You two want to kick each other in the nuts back-and-forth, get your own blogs.

    Like

  10. Ed

    Much agreement when you write @ MAY 23, 2014 @ 2:33 PM…

    “Yes!!!!!! God hides things in the scriptures…
    for the purpose of us finding the TREASURE that is hidden within it.”

    1 – Jesus always spoke to the multitudes, who followed Him, in parables.

    All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
    and without a parable spake he NOT unto them.
    Matthew 13:34

    2 – Seems “The Kingdom of God” is a mystery…
    And Jesus spoke in parables…
    So some would see, and NOT perceive…
    And some would hear, and NOT understand…

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know
    *the mystery of the kingdom of God:*
    but unto them that are without,
    ALL these things are done in parables:
    That seeing they may see, and NOT perceive;
    and hearing they may hear, and NOT understand;
    lest at any time they should be converted,
    and their sins should be forgiven them.
    Mark 4:11-12

    Yes – Some things are hard to be understood…
    Why didn’t Jesus speak so ALL could understand???

    3 – BUT – Jesus, expounded ALL things to “His Disciples.”..
    When they were ALONE… 😉

    But without a parable spake he NOT unto them:
    and when they were ALONE, he expounded ALL things to “His Disciples.”
    Mark 4:34

    Ed – I always enjoy our conversations and your understandings… 😉

    Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
    and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
    and a book of remembrance was written before him
    for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
    Mal 3:16 KJV

    Like

  11. And Matthew

    You ask @ MAY 23, 2014 @ 12:53 PM…
    “Do you dismiss the words of Jesus, recorded by the Apostle Matthew (chapter 22) and Mark (Chapter 12) about which one is the first and greatest most important commandment?”

    NO, I do NOT dis-miss the words of Jesus…
    Jesus – Who was asked about “the Greatest commandment.
    Jesus – Who was asked about “the most important commandment.

    But – When Paul, and James, was speaking – Was anyone asking them?
    “which one is the first and greatest most important commandment?”
    NOPE

    And – Have you noticed…
    Jesus also gives a NEW Commandment – **That ye love one another;**

    John 13:34-35
    A NEW commandment I give unto you,
    **That ye love one another;**
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
    **if ye have love one to another.**

    Then Jesus says – This is MY commandment, **That ye love one another;**

    John 15:12-13
    This is MY commandment,
    **That ye love one another,** as I have loved you.
    Greater love hath no man than this,
    that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    Could Paul, and James, have been refrencing Jesus saying…
    “A NEW commandment I give unto you?”
    **That ye love one another?**

    And – Could Paul, and James, have been refrencing Jesus saying…
    This is MY commandment?
    **That ye love one another?**

    Like

  12. Dear A. Amos Love,
    I’m glad that unlike Ed, you do not Dismiss the words of Jesus in Matthew 22 & Mark 12. This is not some minor point. It’s about what is the most important commandment according to Jesus. Jesus was asked directly, and he responded directly, two different times.

    Jesus was quoting two different laws in the Torah. He didn’t parrot them, there is a slight variation in his wording. But they are TWO Commandments, (not ONE as Paul said.) We need to know that the Law and Prophets are summed up in TWO not one commandment, what the two commandments, are, and which order they are in.
    The love of God is first.
    The love of people is second.

    Yes the two commandments are connected, interrelated, should not be separated, and there is overlap. But they are not the same, they are not equal or equivalent. They are not one, they are two. God is above, man is below.

    How we love God is different than how we love man. There is more to loving God than simply loving people, although it includes loving people. This is not a minor point to Jesus.

    We have a choice here. Listen to what Jesus clearly said (twice.)
    or,
    Our own opinions about what we think Paul and James really must have meant.

    I choose Jesus.
    The writings of Paul and James have some value, but not nearly as much as the teaching of Jesus. Paul and James were reflecting the teachings of the Pharisees of their day, about “love your neighbor as yourself” being the one great commandment. Jesus warned us against the teaching of the Pharisees. It so happens that Paul was literally a Pharisee too.

    The Apostles were 12 men who walked with Jesus faithfully during His entire 3 1/2 years of earthly ministry, from John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven, so they were 12 witnesses who really knew Jesus personally. That is why only 2 men were proposed, and Matthias was chosen and appointed to fill the 12th slot, since he was qualified.

    Neither Paul nor James were Apostles. The were not following Jesus for 3 1/2 years, so they didn’t know Jesus and His ways and teachings like the Apostles did. Their not knowing about the First Most Important Commandment and the Second is an example of this. Their teachings are inferior to the teachings of Jesus. So where the teachings of other men disagree with Jesus, I dismiss them, because I cannot dismiss the teachings of Jesus.

    So we have the choice. Follow Paul & James, (who were not even Apostles,) or
    Follow Jesus.

    I know you stress the need for application. I propose to you that we need to ask two questions, not one.
    .1) First, how do we love God first?
    .2) Second, how do we love people second?

    Like

  13. A. Amos Love,
    No I Do not you call myself, or have the “Title” pastor today?

    It is a rare word in the Bible – basically, it’s Paul’s word. 🙂
    I was using it loosely, as it us used in our society today to refer to the nominal leader/preacher of a church.

    Paul was the abusive absentee leader of the Church in Corinth. He controlled all aspects of the church, if you read his two letters to them, and he didn’t delegate any real authority to anyone else, even though he had left the church years before and was working full-time at his own school hundreds of miles away.

    Like

  14. Matthew Perri, you seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking that the word apostle is a title, denoting position, status and authority. It is not. It is a job description, like janitor or truck driver. Since you are a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, you will be able to look up and see that the word apostle itself (ἀπόστολος, apostolos) simply means a delegate or messenger, one who is sent. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot recall any Scripture where it say that one must have spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus to be an apostle. Men have applied human logic to reach that conclusion. I suppose Peter applied that test in the particular instance of his (I believe misguided) efforts to complete the number of the 12, but according to the sense of the word apostle itself, to be an apostle of Jesus, one must have been called and sent by Jesus. Paul was called and sent by Jesus. According to the information we have, Matthias was not. Matthias was designated an apostle at the instigation of the ever presumptuous Peter.

    Like

  15. Hi Gary W

    It’s been awhile. Good to hear from you. 🙂

    Yes – “apostle itself (ἀπόστολος, apostolos) simply means a delegate or messenger, one who is sent.”

    BUT - Today – Folks like “Titles” – They come with Power – Profit – Prestige…
    Some like to have “Titles” – They come with Power – Profit – Prestige…
    And folks will follow them.

    And some like to follow those with the “Titles.”

    One guy gave himself the “Title”
    Chief Executive Apostle – Pastor – Founder.

    NO kidding – Saw it with my own eyes… 😉

    Like

  16. Matthew Perri

    You ask @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:24 PM…
    “I know you stress the need for application.
    I propose to you that we need to ask two questions, not one.
    .1) First, how do we love God first?
    .2) Second, how do we love people second?”
    ———

    Hmmm?
    .1) First, how do we love God first?
    How about? – By loving people first… 😉
    ———

    Seems Jesus made it simple to love God first…
    By loving people first – Because Jesus loves people – and said…

    Mt 25:40
    as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
    **ye have done it unto me.**

    So, We love God first by loving people first… 🙂

    And – thus we obey “The New Commandment” given by Jesus… 😉

    John 13:34-35
    A NEW commandment I give unto you,
    **That ye love one another;**
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
    **if ye have love one to another.**

    Like

  17. Matthew Perri

    Do you really think Ed would
    “Dismiss the words of Jesus in Matthew 22 & Mark 12?”

    FYI – When you say stuff like that you lose a lot of credibility.

    Like

  18. Matthew Perri

    Clearly, with me, you also lose credibility when you use the word Clearly. Because, In My Experience, most who use Clearly think that is the end of the discussion and they are right. Clearly. And anything I add is NOT Clearly in the Scriptures when I dis-agree. Have I made my clear?

    Clearly, when trying to prove your point, which is NOT clear to me…
    You have a clear compulsion to use the word “Clearly.”
    Which, when used, clearly does NOT benefit your argument or information.
    ———-

    You Clearly use Clearly a lot – Why?

    Clearly @ APRIL 16, 2014 @ 7:08 PM
    “Before your very eyes I **clearly** explained the need for water rationing.”

    Clearly @ MAY 17, 2014 @ 3:15 PM
    “Paul lying to the Ephesian elders saying he was “compelled by the Spirit” going to Jerusalem, when in truth he was **clearly** disobeying God?”

    Clear @ MAY 18, 2014 @ 6:49 PM
    “Even Luke went way of out his way to make it **clear** in Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15 that Paul was never appointed or recognized individually as an apostle by anyone.”

    Clearly @ MAY 20, 2014 @ 11:01 AM
    “However, if we read the context that Luke recorded in Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15, we can **clearly** see that Paul was never appointed an apostle,”

    Clearly @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 6:34 PM
    “Jesus **clearly** saw the Scriptures of his day, what we call the Old Testament, in 3 distinct categories, in order of priority.”

    “Even if you believe that “all Scripture is God-breathed”, Jesus **clearly** told us that all Scripture is NOT equally authoritative or important.”

    Clearly @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:24 PM
    “We have a choice here. Listen to what Jesus **clearly** said (twice.)”
    —————–
    This might be a benefit to you.
    This is on my computer Dictionary about using the word “Clearly.”
    By – Stephen White, The Written Word; 1984.

    clearly
    Exaggerators like this word, along with its cousins ( obviously, undeniably, undoubtedly, and the like). Often a statement prefaced with one of these words is conclusory, and sometimes even exceedingly dubious. As a result—though some readers don’t consciously realize it.

    Clearly and its ilk are “weasel words” that is, unnecessary words that supposedly intensify the meaning of a statement, but actually weaken it. Just how much clearly can weaken a statement is evident in the following example, in which the author uses the word to buttress a claim about his own state of mind: “Clearly, I am not to be convinced that this is a small matter.”

    Like

  19. Good morning, Amos. Yes, “clearly” is clearly (heh heh) used manipulatively by those who would rather impose their views than seek truth, even if it means admitting that their own views have been incorrect.

    The other thing I notice about Matthew is that he seems to go to extremes. While I agree that it is appropriate to question whether Paul should be received with the unquestioned authority usually afforded to him, Matthew goes and describes Paul as “the abusive absentee pastor of the church in Corinth.” Setting aside the question whether it is cowardly to insult somebody who is dead and cannot defend themselves, Matthew’s comment is a good example of an ad hominem attack.

    Then again, maybe Matthew comes by his binary, black and white, all or nothing patterns of thinking honestly. It’s the sort of thing Dallas Theological Seminary is famous for–unless things have changed since I was reading some stuff by the former president of DTS, Dr. John Walvoord. Now, don’t get me wrong. Dr. Wolvoord is deceased, and I wouldn’t wish to insult a dead man (well, most dead men). Still, I think I am allowed to criticize the man’s writings so long as I don’t insult the man–in the manner Matthew insults God’s chosen instrument to communicate the good news to us gentiles.

    Like

  20. Matthew Perri,

    Clearly, A. Amos Love is right. A NEW COMMANDMENT.

    John 13:34
    A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    **********************

    1 John 4:19-21
    19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

    *********************
    Ed

    Like

  21. Gary W – Ed

    And, I’m-a-now-a-thinkin…
    Paul, and what he wrote, is NOT the problem.

    But – The problem is “Today’s Religious System.” What, How, they teach.
    You know – What Matthew learned at Dallas Theological Seminary.
    And how D.T.S. is training believers to be “Godly servant-leaders.”
    Clearly – A term NOT found in the Bible. But it sure sounds nice… 😉

    And how The Religious System promotes Hierarchy – Chain of Command.
    How they desire to “Exercise Authority.” A No, No. Mark 10:42.
    And say they are “Spiritual Authority” and “Church Leaders.”
    Clearly – Terms NOT found in the Bible. But they sure sound nice… 😉
    And eventually will “Lord it over God’s heritage.” — A No, No. 1 Peter 5:3.

    They will call themselves “servant-leaders.” As D.T.S. teaches…
    But Clearly, “Titled,”edjumacated guys, remain, ‘leaders of the servants.’ 😦
    And get their own parking spaces. And other exhalted privaleges. 😉

    And, so, Today’s Religious System interprets Paul… They translate Paul…
    They *Twist,* mis-interpret, mis-teach, what Paul wrote…

    To fit with their agenda – Control – Authority – Power – Profit – Prestige…

    While *Ignoring* and *Twisting* what Jesus taught His Disciples…

    There is – “ONE” Shepherd – “ONE” Teacher – “ONE” Leader…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  22. “Servant-leader.” This is a fine sounding, though oxymoronic, term. It is unlike the usual examples of oxymornic words insofar as there really are such a things as military intelligence, postal service, and even jumbo shrimp

    Like

  23. Oops! That last post should have ended with a period, following which there should have been the single word “Clearly,” to wit: “. . . and even jumbo shrimp. Clearly.”

    Like

  24. Dear A. Amos Love,
    With due respect and love, I must note that you are both engaging in “Ad Hominem” attacks and “Begging the Question” rather than facing the specific issues I am raising from the text of the Bible itself.

    .1) What is an Apostle?
    My definition is based on the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles which are in the New Testament Text. So rather than carefully analyzing how I use the word “clearly”, it would be more relevant and profitable to do the same kind of analysis on how Jesus and the Original Apostles used the word “Apostle” and words with that root, and references to them such as “Twelve Thrones” and “Thrones'”.

    Only 3 Apostles wrote Scripture. Matthew, John, & Peter.
    Mark & Luke also recorded the words and actions of Jesus the Original Apostles. even though they were not themselves Apostles and had no authority to appoint Apostles.

    My definition of “Apostle” does not come from Paul, or from Luke’s passing editorial comments in Acts 14 out of context about “the apostles, Barnabas and Paul”, or from a Modern Greek Dictionary, or from Church Tradition. Paul redefined the word “Apostle” in order to include himself in this elite category. Other sources are based on Paul’s liberal redefinition of the word.

    If you have something from the words or actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles to indicate that Matthias was not the 12th appointed Apostle, or there are more than 12 Apostles, please show me where in Scripture.
    with Blessings,
    Matthew

    Like

  25. Amos and Ed,

    Do you notice how cleverly Matthew (1:55 PM) attempts to shift the burden of proof from the one asserting a proposition to the ones he is trying to prevail upon. Worse, he goes so far as to insist that his detractors prove a negative. Those are slick tactics if you can get away with them.

    Beyond that, it seems that Mathew is permitted to insist that historical practice was and is normative when it comes to defining apostles as having been with Jesus during His ministry. However, when I point out that Matthias, unlike the initial 12 (plus Paul), was neither called nor appointed by Jesus Himself, why then the example of Jesus calling and appointing apostles is NOT normative.

    In my opinion Matthew is clearly attempting to manipulate the manner of discussion so that he can prevail by process, without reference to actual substance.

    Like

  26. Here is Frank Viola’s list of all the apostles mentioned in the New Testament:

    Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1)
    The Twelve (Matt. 10:2–4; Mark 3:14–19; Luke 6:13–16):
    Andrew Bartholomew (also called Nathanael)
    James, son of Zebedee
    James, son of Alphaeus
    John Judas Iscariot (Matthias took his place—Acts 1:26)
    Judas (also called Lebbaeus and surnamed Thaddaeus)
    Matthew (also called Levi)
    Peter (also called Simon)
    Philip Simon Zelotes (also called Simon the Canaanite)
    Thomas (also called Didymus)

    In addition to the Twelve, the following are also called “apostles” (apostolos in Greek):
    Apollos (1 Cor. 4:6–9)
    Andronicus (Rom. 16:7)
    Barnabas (Acts 14:3–4, 14; 1 Cor. 9:5–6)
    Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25)
    James, the Lord’s brother (1 Cor. 15:7; Gal. 1:19)
    Junia (Rom. 16:7)
    Paul (Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:1, et al.)
    Silas (1 Thess. 1:1; 2:6)
    Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1; 2:6)
    Titus (2 Cor. 8:23)

    Viola, Frank (2009-09-01). Finding Organic Church:A Comprehensive Guide to Starting and Sustaining Authentic Christian Communities (pp. 162-164). David C Cook. Kindle Edition.

    Of course, since Matthew rejects Paul out of hand (or so it appears to me), he will not be persuaded. Sorry, but I find Paul to be more persuasive than Matthew P., even if I am toying with the idea that, though Paul is authoritative, he is not necessarily infallible.

    Like

  27. A. Amos Love

    Oh, there’s that famous Calvinistic term, “ad hominem”.  They must teach Latin at the Dallas cemetary.  I want some eggs with my hominy grits.  I saw an ad for hominy for $1.99 that includes orange juice, coffee, and a visit to see the wizard of oz with the straw man.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  28. Gary,

    If you click his name, it brings you to a church that he is representing.  Back in 2009 Matthew posted his own blog posts proclaiming to the world that the Apostle Paul was designated Apostle by Jesus.  Now he somehow “changed his mind”. 

    Out of all of the experts in the world, he has found something that no one in the whole world has found in over 2,000 years.  He thinks it’s a revelation from God or something. 

    And that is what is dangerous, because he believes it so much, and seeing that he represents a church…I wouldn’t be surprised if he seeks to start his own church someday real soon and have a band of followers.

    And since he is “educated” from a seminary, who is gonna disagree with him?  I put him right up there with Herbert W. Armstrong, and his son, Garner Ted.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  29. Ed,

    Excellent sleuthing! Under the date of August 13, 2009, Matthew did indeed refer to “the lives of ‘great men’, like the Apostle Paul.” Now, I am not going to push Matthew’s inconsistency too far. I actually see it as a sign of intellectual and moral maturity that one is able to embrace convictions that are contrary to those to which they formerly subscribed. In Matthews instance, however, it seems maybe he has gone from questioning Paul’s actions to condemning Paul the man, to indulging a reviling spirit (Paul was “the abusive absentee pastor. . .”) which in turn seems to have caused Matthew to set aside the exegetical principles Dallas Theological Seminary prides itself (or used to pride itself) in promoting.

    The other possibility I can think if is that, while Dallas loudly trumps (trumpeted?) its commitment to rigorous exegetical principles, in reality it was engaged in eisegetical subterfuge–so that Matthew has failed to notice when his own exegesis became eisegesis. I am thinking in particular of Dr. Walvoord’s commentary on the book of Revelation. He wrote with great certainty, but in retrospect it is apparent that he had his mind made up before he ever set words to paper, or even began to examine the apocalyptic book itself.

    Like

  30. “”Dear Gary W
    I have learned some new things in the last 5 years. Have you?
    I am certainly not the only person who has seen some of these things, even going back to the Second Century. http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/56-marcionism.html

    Thank you for this list you provided above, which says, QUOTE:
    In addition to the Twelve, the following are also called “apostles” (apostolos in Greek):”
    You can see all those names are from Paul’s letters, except for “Barnabas (Acts 14:3–4, 14;) which was written by Paul’s Gentile friend Luke, who was not an Apostle himself, and referred to “the apostles Barnabas and Paul” but not individually.

    Thank you for proving my point.
    Neither Jesus nor any Original Apostle ever referred to Paul or anyone else outside the 12 as an Apostle in any way shape or form.

    And even the one seeming exception, what Luke wrote in Acts 14, never refers to anyone outside the 12 individually as Apostles. Luke just used the term liberally like Paul, but only temporarily for the mission trip that Barnabas and Paul were sent on together in Acts 13 & 14.

    Luke also wrote Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15, showing the distinction between the Apostles and Barnabas and Paul. Luke never said that Paul was appointed an Apostle by anyone, Luke had no authority to appoint Paul an apostle, and Luke never said that Paul was recognized individually as an apostle by anyone.

    So thank you for helping to prove my point from the text.
    According to Jesus and the Original Apostles, there are only 12 Apostles, and the 12th is Matthias. Their words and actions are completely unanimous in the pages of the Bible, and they certainly knew what an Apostle was better than Paul, or Luke, or you.

    All Hail the Power of JESUS NAME
    Let angels prostrate fall, let angles prostrate fall
    Bring forth the royal diadem
    and crown HIM Lord of All !

    Like

  31. Dear Gary W
    Regarding the Church in Corinth, it is infamous as an unhealthy wacky carnal church.
    We have more Bible text written about this one church, and more written specifically TO this one church, than any other church in the Bible.
    So,
    When Paul wrote his two letters to the church, who was in charge of all aspects of the church in Corinth?

    Like

  32. Lesson 1 Matthew,

    Changing your mind is the definition of the word REPENT.

    You are not to change your mind of things written in the Bible.  You are to change your understanding of what is said, that you slap your forehand to your forehead and state, “Now I get it!”

    You are doing more than changing your understanding to what is written.  You are changing what is written by stating that it is all a lie and a fabrication. I think you realize by now, you do not move us to REPENT.  But, you will find followers in your cult, those who have itching ears.  Oh, wait…Paul wrote the words “itching ears”.  Ya, he wrote those words for anyone who is gonna follow you.

    Your change of mind is dangerous, given your education and history in church. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  33. Matthew,

    Why is that a concern to you, Matthew?  You are making a story, and an argument where there isn’t one.  You are basing things on assumptions on your part. 

    You are basically doing a “hath God said…?” trick that Satan played on Eve.

    DO NOT play that game with us, Matthew.  We ain’t biting.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  34. Dear A. Amos Love
    What you wrote is so true:

    “And some like to follow those with the “Titles.”
    One guy gave himself the “Title”
    Chief Executive Apostle – Pastor – Founder.”

    And Paul the Pharisee, who was not an Apostle, gave himself the “Title”
    “Apostle to the Gentiles”

    In other words, Paul put himself over every person in the world except the Jews, and he also took it upon himself to publically disrespect the Apostles that Jesus appointed like Peter….

    Like

  35. Hi Julie Anne,
    On April 8 you wrote, QUOTE:
    “Essentially, they believe Calvary Chapel pastors have a direct line with God and it is a case of, “Who are you to question me when I have a direct line with God.” Is this not a recipe for disaster? ”

    Yes. And if you swap out “Calvary Chapel pastors ” from this statement, and swap in “Paul” (the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles) it’s the same thing.
    🙂

    Like

  36. Matthew,

    Could we at least agree that Jesus was speaking of Paul when He said “he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel”? (Acts 9:15 ESV) Or in case you prefer KJV, “he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.”

    Like

  37. Matthew,

    Where you appeal to a hermeneutic that insists the use of a term is legitimate only as used and applied by Jesus or the original 12 apostles, have you also rejected the doctrine of the trinity?

    Like

  38. To God’s Chosen Instrument Gary W
    From God’s Chosen Instrument Matthew

    All true followers of Jesus are “chosen instruments” and either “beloved brothers” or “beloved sisters” in Christ. Samson and the Prophet Jonah and King Solomon were chosen instruments too. (So were some pagan kings, but that is another matter.)

    It was not a requirement of an Apostle to write Scripture. 9 of the 12 Apostles didn’t write Scripture, and Mark and Luke and others who were not apostles did write Scripture. So this same old short list of tired irrelevant objections claiming that others “affirmed Paul’s apostleship.” doesn’t hold water. Paul made up the word “apostleship” and applied it to himself. No one else in the New Testament ever used Paul’s new “word”. Because there is no “apostleship..”

    There are just 12 Apostles, 12 men were walked with Jesus for His entire ministry of 3 1/2 years, so they knew Him and His ways and teachings, and could be faithful witnesses. They were qualified due to their long-term faithful relationship with Jesus, specifically individually appointed, and later recognized as being part of the 12. And there are only 12, no more. Matthias was the 12th. According to the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles, this is the truth. No one in the world has refuted this clear statement of fact about the text of the New Testament, and you are not even attempting to refute it here either.

    Yes we would agree that we should assume “Paul was a chosen instrument,” meaning an actual follower of Jesus and a missionary. Chosen instrument does not mean Apostle. I cannot prove that Paul was not really a follower of Jesus, and this is where I differ from a number of “Anti-Paul” people today on places like JesusWordsOnly.com. I can understand their reasoning. But ultimately, I can’t disprove Paul’s salvation any more than I can with a number of modern “evangelists” today.

    The Bible, and the world today, are filled with carnal immature ignorant followers of Jesus who say, do, and write things that may contain some truth, but also contain a lot of error and carnal thinking. Paul was a travelling evangelist, missionary, speaker, teacher, writer, and abusive absentee leader of the Church in Corinth. The Evangelical world today is filled with many modern “Pauls.” who imitate Paul rather than Jesus. That is the theological root cause of why the church is so sick today.

    Paul was a prolific Christian writer who relentlessly promoted himself, and thought he alone had “the complete revelation”, but really he didn’t know very much, and he had a bad attitude. He didn’t even know the Most Important Commandment according to Jesus.

    Even if you feel you “can’t agree” with me, do you at least have the courage to admit that you can’t prove me wrong from the pages of Scripture?
    Blessings
    Matthew

    Like

  39. Here it is again folks.

    Look on Calvary Chapel Abuse website to see what damage he’s done there throwing everyone off topic and making accusations against longtime commentors while trying to convince everyone that Paul isn’t a real apostle and his epistles aren’t inherrant. Ask Alex about it.

    I encourage everyone commenting here to stay on topic and ignore his overtures.

    Like

  40. The first and greatest Most Important Commandment that Jesus quoted from was:
    “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. TALK ABOUT THEM when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. [Deuteronomy 6:5-7]

    Calvary Chapel leaders such as Bob Coy actively try to prevent people from discussing the text of Bible and thinking for themselves. They demand to control the conversation, so it’s all “one way from the pulpit,” and they pressure their cult members to ignore anyone with an open Bible who will start discussion about the text. Since their cult teachings won’t stand up in an open discussion, they forbid discussion.

    Like

  41. Matthew Perri said to me, mocking my reference to Peter’s reference to Paul:

    “To my beloved brother Ed, Are you an Apostle too, since I referred to you as beloved brother? from your beloved brother Matthew”

    My response to that is: What Epistles of Paul was Peter referring to?  What “HARD THINGS” that Peter said of Paul were hard to be understood? 

    If you believe that Peter was sincere, then tell me what those epistles were that Peter was discussing.  The way that he made reference to Paul’s epistles indicates that the people that Peter was writing to, also read them, too. 

    So, what epistles was Peter discussing?  Where does your research go in that regard? 

    Basically, you are going to do one of them “blame the Catholics” thing, right?  Because the Catholics claim that they are the ones who put the Bible together for us, right?

    You can always tell a cult when the first thing that they will do is to blame it all on the Catholics. 

    Or, do you believe that Peter was referencing the same exact epistles that you object to…BROTHER!  Or, was it other epistles which you haven’t read yet?  Or did you read them?  What did they say?

    Produce Peter’s reference to Paul’s epistles, Matthew.  Put up, or shut up.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  42. Matthew, I guess that you missed what John said.  He said that our proof of our loving God is our loving people.

    Therefore, our only law is to love people, which shows people that we love God.

    I just cannot get why and how you don’t get it.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  43. Ed
    Despite your rude behavior, I will try to turn the other cheek here as I think Jesus would.

    Peter’s Second letter is short – only 3 chapters. Since Peter was hand-picked by Jesus as leader of the Apostles, was trained by Jesus for 3 1/2 years, and now late in his life he is writing a few things, we should be careful to listen carefully to the nuances of what Peter is saying, and NOT saying. Peter wrote about “PROPHECY of Scripture” in Chapter 1. . (Not “All Scripture” like Paul.)

    In chapter 3:1-2, read very very carefully what exactly Peter is saying, how he is saying it, and what he is NOT saying, about “words spoken in the past by the holy prophets”, vs. “command given through our Lord and Savior through your apostles.”

    This is indirectly disavowing Paul’s claim that “All Scripture is God-breathed.” Think carefully. Analyze it. Paul the Pharisee writing to the church in Corinth “I became your father therefore I urge you to imitate me” is not a “command given through our Lord and Savior through your apostles.” Paul’s words are not the words of God, neither written in his letters nor spoken and recorded by Luke in his biography in Acts.

    Most of 2 Peter chapter 3 is about the end times. Peter making reference to “these matters” that are “hard to understand” [2 Peter 3:16] in Paul’s letters is a reference to things Paul wrote about the end times, if you look at the context. It isn’t a blanket endorsement of everything Paul wrote as being “God-breathed” because it’s “Scripture.” I know that’s the tradition we are a part of. But it’s really a cult-like distortion of one minor point in Scripture out of context.

    The “Letters” by Paul and others in the New Testament are like the “Writings” in the Hebrew Scriptures. Sometimes helpful yes, but sometimes wrong, and not the word of God. They are simply less important than the Testimony of Jesus recorded by Matthew Mark Luke & John.

    We are called to listen to Jesus and follow Jesus first.

    Like

  44. All through the day, we should be asking ourselves 2 questions:
    First, how do I love God first? and
    Second, how do I love people second.?

    Jesus said:
    “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” [John 14:15]

    I don’t have a perfect comprehensive definition of what this all means, but clearly, loving God ALWAYS involves our obedience to God, while loving people does not always involve obedience to people. Sometimes it does. But God is always first. And we need to be sure we distinguish between loving God and loving people, even though there is a lot of overlap.

    Like

  45. JA,

    You and Cathryn are right. Taking everything in context, including on this thread and the one you link to at 9:55 AM, it is my considered opinion that Matthew is projecting, and is actually guilty of engaging in the very conduct he condemns, when, on the other thread, he accuses somebody “of causing distraction and diversion, with noise and nonsense, to confuse the issue and cover up the truth.” Projection is a common phenomenon with people who cannot help but present themselves as always right and the the other person as always wrong, which is where Matthew appears to me to be coming from (you’ll have to ask the experts how this works). They make good object lessons for anybody who wishes to learn how to identify and deal with the sorts of people you would not want in church leadership. To tell you the truth, I am not really attempting to persuade Matthew of anything. That would be hopeless. Rather, I am testing whether Matthew will respond and react in a manner that is consistent with what I perceive to be his characterological predispositions. It’s not intended to insult or embarrass him. I don’t believe he is capable of being insulted or embarrassed, at least a a conscious level. It’s just that I am testing my theories, theories that are not unrelated to the question of identifying and dealing with people who, in my opinion, should not be church leadership.

    Like

  46. Gary W,

    I’m not going to shut down this conversation in case some think it is really important to finish it out. Based on the CCA thread, it likely will continue and so at some point you have to decide for yourself if it is time well spent.

    For me, I am taking this motto to heart: don’t feed the troll.

    Like

  47. Matthew Perri,

    You did not answer my question at all.  You skirted the issue altogether. 

    I asked what writings of Paul was Peter discussing.  AND that Peter made his statement KNOWING that others have read them, too.  So, where are those epistles that Peter was discussing. 

    Bottom line, Where are those epistles?  And why don’t you produce them?

    Put up, or shut up.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  48. Matthew Perri,

    And John said that in order to prove that you love God first, you love people.  That is why the commandments (PLURAL) is a SINGULAR commandment.  And John certainly shows that the singular commandment satisfies the Commandments (PLURAL).

    I gave you the reference.  So, in regards to Peter’s word about Paul’s epistles, put up, or shut up.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  49. What are some underlying systematic causes for the Moral Corruption of Bob Coy and other Calvary Chapel pastors?

    One clear systematic distinctive of Calvary Chapel is their approach to teaching the Bible.
    (verse by verse, book by book, assuming it’s all “God-breathed” because Paul said so).
    I would like to discuss the Bible input compared with what kind of fruits are produced by Calvary Chapel’s approach to teaching the Bible.

    The Article above quotes Chuck Smith saying, QUOTE:
    “We are not led by a board of elders. I feel my primary responsibility is to the Lord. And one day I’m going to answer to him, not to a board of elders.”

    Paul wrote to the church he founded in Corinth, QUOTE
    “I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.” [1 Corinthians 4:3-4]

    Like

  50. Matthew Perri,

    You still are avoiding my question.  Where are the epistles that Peter discusses that Paul wrote, that he indicates that the same people that Peter was writing to read them?

    Where are they?  Are they the same epistles that you claim are a lie?  Or are they different.

    Answer the question posed.

    In addition, John said that God’s commandments (plural) just one commandment (singular).

    You keep avoiding those two topics.  All you are doing is denying Paul’s letters without producing evidence of the epistles that Peter is discussing.

    Provide those epistles, Matthew.  Put up, or shut up. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  51. Dear Gary W
    RE: “the question of identifying and dealing with people who, in my opinion, should not be church leadership.”

    The Church in Corinth was infamous as an unhealthy wacky carnal church.
    We have more Bible text written about this one church, and more written specifically TO this one church, than any other church in the Bible.
    So,
    When Paul wrote his two letters to the church, who was the church leader, in charge of all aspects of the church in Corinth?

    Like

  52. Ed,

    People like Matthew are fun because they are so self-evidently driven by private agendas, which in turn makes it easy to expose them to any who care to watch. Of course they cannot see their own folly, which is in a way kind of sad.

    Still, people like Matthew can be useful as real life, in the flesh, object lessons. They can be compared with people who are in positions to do real damage, people like the Calvary Chapel “pastors” who are the subject of this thread.

    One thing I think I see in Matthew is evidence of the psychological phenomenon of splitting, or all-or-nothing, all-good-or-completely-evil thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_%28psychology%29). The phenomenon is related to idealization and devaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealization_and_devaluation). We seem to see these phenomena in Matthew in that he goes from singing Paul’s praises some years ago to, now, seeking out forums where he can subject Paul to irrational, though quite rabid, character assassination.

    We see the same sort of thing with destructive “pastors.” Unfortunately, these “pastors,” who I count among the wolves, pigs and vipers, can devour the lambs for whom our Lord laid down His life. These “pastors” will embrace a congregant, often engaging in love bombing, public praising, etc., so long as the “pastor’s” agendas are served. However, once a congregant no longer serves these “pastors’” purposes they are quickly devalued, perceived as evil (splitting), and subjected to all forms of abuse. The poor lambs are marginalized, slandered, shunned and even sued.

    The lesson? If you ever find yourself being embraced to excess, praised and glorified by any “pastor,” run. Run for your life. You are about to be devalued, demonized and destroyed.

    Like

  53. Gary W

    Great Summation – But then again – with your background… 😉

    Yes – Matthew is an “object lesson.”

    Yes – “People like Matthew are fun.”

    Yes – “Of course they cannot see their own folly,”

    And, Matthew helps WE, His Sheep, His Disciples to be prepared…
    When WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Called Out Ones…
    Meet someone trying to create doubt, unbelief, about the scriptures…
    Trying to create doubt, unbelief, about Paul, and what he writes…

    Like

  54. Amos,

    One of the sad things about Matthew is that he makes some good points, but he loses credibility by going too far. To the extent that Matthew is saying something along the lines that Paul is not the new Moses, and that his instructions to the early assemblies are not necessarily to be viewed as some sort of normative prescriptions for all places and all times, I could appreciate what he is saying. However, when he begins to demonize Paul, it becomes difficult for me to see what is good in his thinking.

    Like

  55. Matthew Perri

    You write to me @ MAY 28, 2014 @ 1:55 PM…
    “With due respect and love, I must note that you are both engaging in “Ad Hominem” attacks and “Begging the Question” rather than facing the specific issues I am raising from the text of the Bible itself.”

    Hmmm? Was wondering… “With due respect and love,”
    Are you accusing me of being an “Ad Hominem” attacker?”

    Wouldn’t that be an “Ad Hominem” attack on your part? On me? 😉

    ———–

    An “Ad Hominem” attack by you – “rather than facing the specific issues
    I am raising from the text of the Bible itself?”

    You say you’re following Jesus – BUT – You “Ignore” Jesus – When…
    Jesus calls it “A New Commandment” and “MY Commandment”
    **That ye love one another;**
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
    **if ye have love one to another.**

    Yup – Jesus warned us about those who say one thing and do another…

    Yes – Matthew is an “object lesson.”

    Like

  56. Matthew Perri

    And – If you re-read my comment to you about “Clearly.”

    You’ll see – I was trying to help you debate. Eliminate “Weasel words.”
    But – You are so stuck on being “Right” – NOT proven “Wrong”
    You thought I was attacking “YOU.”

    I do NOT mind your challenges about Paul…
    I was there at one time. And the list of challenges was much longer, tougher.

    And, I kinda like how you’re willing to stand against…
    The Crowd – and The Tradtions of Men. Makes folks think a little.

    I just do NOT think you have made a very good case about Paul…
    “from the text of the Bible itself.” 😉

    Like

  57. Matthew Perri

    Hmmm? Clearly – Your credibility, your reliability, is Clearly suspect…
    Especially when you write @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
    “Even if you feel you “can’t agree” with me, do you at least have the courage to admit that you can’t prove me wrong from the pages of Scripture?”

    1 – Well, Are you wrong when you write about “apostleship?”
    You write @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
    “Paul made up the word “apostleship” and applied it to himself.
    **No one else** in the New Testament ever used Paul’s new “word”.
    Because there is no “apostleship..”

    Well – How about, in “the pages of scripture” – Acts chapter one…
    Seems Luke, writes about, and “uses” the word “apostleship.” 😉

    Acts 1:24-25 KJV
    And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord,
    which knowest the hearts of all men,
    shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
    That he may take part of this ministry
    **and apostleship,**
    from which Judas by transgression fell,
    that he might go to his own place.

    2 – And, were you wrong when you called Paul, pastor?
    You called Paul *the abusive absentee pastor* @ APRIL 15, 2014 @ 10:49 PM
    And, how you were corrected, from “the pages of scripture?”
    Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – pastor?

    3 – And, are you wrong when you change to **the abusive absentee leader?**
    You change @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:35 PM, and write…
    “Paul was **the abusive absentee leader** of the Church in Corinth”

    And, NOW, are you being corrected again by “the pages of scripture?”
    Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – leader?

    Seems Paul called himself a “Servant.”
    Seems ALL of Jesus’ Disciples called themselves “Servants.”
    Seems Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders.”
    For you have “ONE” leader, The Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB.

    Seems His Disciples believed Jesus. Because, in “the pages of scripture”
    NOT one of His Disciples ever called them self “Leader.”

    Yeah, you wrote @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
    “do you at least have the courage to admit
    that you can’t prove me wrong from the pages of Scripture?”

    Well, that looks like three strikes and…

    Oh Yeah #4 – You write @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:35 PM about the word pastor.
    “No I Do not you call myself, or have the “Title” pastor today?”
    “It is a rare word in the Bible – basically, **it’s Paul’s word.**”

    NOPE, Pastor is NOT Paul’s word. Paul wrote poi men, which means shepherds…
    The translaters put “pastors” in Eph 4:11 – NOT Paul. Wow, MP, wrong again.

    Do you have ** the courage to admit?**
    You, Matthew Perri, are “wrong from the pages of Scripture?”
    Again, and again, and again, and again, and….

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Like

  58. Matthew Perri

    And you never answered this…

    I agree – WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep, should follow Jesus – NOT Paul.

    1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others do that?

    ————-

    Do you NOT know? – How to follow Jesus?
    Do you NOT know? – How to help others follow Jesus?

    Like

  59. Bear with me here, but if I am correct in supposing that Matthew is exhibiting the phenomenon of splitting, then I also believe that it is possible, though not certain, that he is in the good company of none other than Saul/Paul himself. At http://fromthepew.blogspot.com/search/label/Rich%20Young%20Ruler Steve Scott makes the case that Paul was none other than the rich young ruler. When I first read Steve’s appealing ideas a few days ago I thought I perceived an inconsistency. The rich young ruler merely walked away sad. This does not at all appear to be the same person as the angry, violent Saul our Lord met on the road to Damascus. I now see that the apparent inconsistency is no objection at all. The rich young ruler appears to have been attracted to Jesus. Perhaps he perceived and was drawn by Jesus’ love for him. True, the young ruler’s initial response to Jesus’ identification of the young man’s sin was initially met with mere sadness. However, it is not at all difficult to imagine pride causing such sadness to mutate into full blown retaliatory, violent, hatred. We would now recognize this transformation as an instance of splitting, of idealization and devaluation.

    While we cannot know for sure, it certainly seems to me to be appropriate to suppose that maybe, just maybe, the tentative follower of Jesus who was the rich young ruler became the angry, violent Saul–the same angry, violent Saul who our Lord, amazingly enough, chose to be His instrument to carry His name before the Gentiles and Kings and the children of Israel.

    Like

  60. Thanks Amos. I’ll take that as a compliment. You will recognize that Steve Scott is a contributor here. If you have not already discovered it out, I commend his blog to you. What first motivated me to check out his blog a few days ago was something he said on another SSB thread about modern notions of church membership being false, or words to that effect. I think you would approve.

    Like

  61. To my Dear Brother A. Amos Love,
    Thank you for taking the time to open your Bible and prove me wrong on a specific point of Scripture. None of us know everything- Not me, or you, or Paul the Pharisee either.

    You asked me, QUOTE:
    1 – Well, Are you wrong when you write about “apostleship?”
    You write @ MAY 29, 2014 @ 8:22 AM…
    “Paul made up the word “apostleship” and applied it to himself.
    **No one else** in the New Testament ever used Paul’s new “word”.
    Because there is no “apostleship..”

    Well – How about, in “the pages of scripture” – Acts chapter one…
    Seems Luke, writes about, and “uses” the word “apostleship.” 😉

    Acts 1:24-25 KJV
    And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord,
    which knowest the hearts of all men,
    shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
    That he may take part of this ministry
    **and apostleship,**
    from which Judas by transgression fell,
    that he might go to his own place.

    Yes A. Amos Love, I was wrong on that particular point about the Greek word translated “apostleship.” I was relying on the NIV, but there are other translations. Most importantly, I checked the actual Greek text in my Greek Interlinear NT, and yes, it is the same word, in [1 Corinthians 9:2] and [Acts 1:24-25] which could be translated “apostleship” or “apostolic ministry.”

    As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. And as Jesus reminded us from the Torah, Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. This applies to everyone, no exceptions. To me, to you, and also to Paul the Pharisee. Paul was not somehow “the exception to the rule” who didn’t need another witness to back up what he said about himself.

    So now that we agree that you were right and I was wrong on that particular point, I learned something new about the unchanging text of the Bible, and I have changed my view regarding the one word “apostleship.”

    You have brought up a number of other points I would like to discuss and interact with. But to facilitate a more orderly discussion, I would like to propose that we fully address the central point, namely

    “What is an Apostle”?

    I have stated that, according to words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible, there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias.

    I’ve stated what I believe, and my sources that are the basis for my belief.

    Based on these sources, do you agree?
    Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
    Blessing,
    Matthew

    Like

  62. Amos,

    It appears Matthew is trying to draw you into a dispute over the meaning of a word. I wonder if it is profitable. I’m inclined to go with Paul, who speaks of those who have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction. 1 Timothy 6:4. And again Paul admonishes Timothy to, “Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.” (2 Timothy 2:14 ESV)

    But then (sarcasm alert!), who is Paul that we should be influenced by anything he has to say?

    Like

  63. Also, while we’re using Matthew as an object lesson, did you notice how many words it took him to fess up to the fact that he had made mistake. Now, I’m not intending to pile onto Matthew. He isn’t claiming any pastoral authority over anybody here. But can you imaging how difficult it would be to deal with any so called pastor who found it as difficult to admit a mistake as it appears to be for Matthew to do so? Once again, if you’re ever around such a “pastor,” Run. Run now. Do not, do not delay.

    Like

  64. Dear A. Amos Love,
    So Gary W seems to have answered my question.
    Regarding
    “What is an Apostle”?
    It seems Gary W believes that
    “words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible”
    are
    “insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong.”

    Instead, Gary W says Quote: ” I’m inclined to go with Paul.”

    You, or he, or someone else can correct me if you think I’ve misinterpreted or misrepresented Gary W’s words here.

    What about you?
    Do you go with Jesus and the Original Apostles?
    or do you “go with Paul”?

    Like

  65. Julie Anne,

    “Is put up or shut up your new siggy line, Ed?”

    In this case…yeah.  Accusations without evidence.  Paul is on trial.  The witnesses are Peter, James, John, and Luke.  The judge is about to dismiss the case, unless the prosecution provides evidence.  All we have so far is hearsay.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  66. Matthew Perri

    Yes – There is a glimmer of hope for you… 😉

    You were, @ MAY 30, 2014 @ 10:17 AM, able to admit you were wrong… 🙂
    About *particular point* # 1…
    1 – Are you wrong when you write about “apostleship?”
    “I was wrong on that *particular point*
    about the Greek word translated “apostleship.”

    But – What about the other “particular points?” That were pointed out, pointing to “Pugnacious Perri” promoting phony phantom phallacies about Paul? @ MAY 30, 2014 @ 8:32 AM.

    2 – And, were you wrong when you called Paul, pastor?
    Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – pastor?

    3 – And, are you wrong when you change to **the abusive absentee leader?**
    Because, NOT Paul, nor “the pages of scripture” ever called Paul – leader?

    4 – Are you wrong when you say “pastor” is Paul’s word?
    Wasn’t it – “The translators put “pastors” in Eph 4:11 – NOT Paul?

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

    Like

  67. Matthew Perri

    And, are you able to admit you were wrong about these *particular points?*

    You accused Paul @ MAY 16, 2014 @ 10:12 PM…
    Of NOT knowing The Greatest, Most Important, First commandment.
    You write – “Paul the Pharisee *didn’t know*
    the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus.”

    How do you know Paul did NOT know?
    “the greatest, most important, first commandment?”

    You call Paul a Pharisee, and ALL Pharisee’s would be familiar with…

    Deut 6:5 KJV – and – Deut 10:12-13 KJV
    And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
    and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Jesus, was asked about, “the greatest, most important, first commandment?
    NOT Paul… 😉

    And, Sure looks like Jesus quoted from Deut.6:5… 😉
    Then added to Deut 6:5, Leviticus 19:18, in Mat 22:39….
    Lev 19:18 – “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.”

    Which is very similar to Jesus, and His – The New Commandment… 🙂

    John 13:34-35 – A *NEW commandment* I give unto you,
    **That ye love one another;**
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
    **if ye have love one to another.**

    Which is very similar to Paul…

    Rom 13:8 – Owe no man any thing, but to “love one another:”
    for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Gal 5:14* – For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
    “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”

    Which is very similar to James…

    James 2:8 – If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
    “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,” ye do well:

    Which is very similar to John…

    1 John 3:23 – And this is *His commandment,*…
    and *love one another,* as He gave us commandment.

    MP, are you able to admit you were wrong about these *particular points?*
    1 – Paul the Pharisee did NOT know Deut. 6:5, The Greatest Commandment?
    ….. After all, you, MP, call him, “Paul the Pharisee.”
    2 – Jesus, NOT Paul, was asked about The Greatest Commandment?
    3 – And Paul could have been proclaiming The New Commandment?
    …. That Jesus, James, and John proclaimed? 🙂

    Like

  68. G’day Amos,

    Very possibly Matthew, like many “pastors”, is characterologically incapable of admitting or even recognizing, significant error. Yet, unless he is acting in a “pastoral” capacity, he is deserving of our compassion. The etiology or root cause of his incapacity is very possibly found, not in his intellect, but in his having been devalued by his parents, and especially by his father. For such people, to be wrong is felt as being a bad person, as being worthless. I could be wrong, of course, but Matthew might find the possibility worth considering.

    Matthew, please forgive me if any of this embarrasses you. Please do NOT feel obligated to respond to what I suggest. If it does not apply to you, it may help somebody else.

    Like

  69. Dear A. Amos Love
    I can’t answer 20 points all at the same time.
    You have brought up a number of other points I would like to discuss and interact with. But to facilitate a more orderly discussion, I would like to propose that we fully address the central point in the discussion we were already having at length, namely

    “What is an Apostle”?

    I have stated that, according to words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible, there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias.

    I’ve stated what I believe, and my sources that are the basis for my belief.

    Based on these sources, do you agree?
    Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?

    Like

  70. Amos,

    Matthew appeals to John Paul Jackson as a source. Jackson wrote a common sense appeal warning of the dangers of neophytes engaging in spiritual warfare against higher echelon demons. Still, as between Jackson and Paul, I’ll go with Paul. Same thing as between Matthew and Paul.

    Now if Matthew would just agree to apply his hermeneutic to the doctrines of the so called trinity we might have something to discuss…

    Like

  71. Matthew Perri,

    Why do you neglect to respond to my questions, Matthew?

    Your answer to my questions would clear up your inconsistencies.  

    Peter mentions Epistles that Paul wrote, and indicates that people that Peter had already read them, which means that these epistles were of public domain, not private.

    And so my question to you…again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again is….

    Where are those epistles that Peter was talking about?

    If those epistles are the same exact ones that you are discussing, then all of your talk about “What is an Apostle” is a MUTE POINT.

    Peter acknowledges Paul.  So, WHERE ARE PAUL’S EPISTLES.

    Shut up about what is an apostle.  You need to answer the question, because without that question being answered, you have no argument.

    By the way…who put the Bible together in the first place?

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  72. Matthew Perri,

    I will play your game:

    Apostle Strong’s Concordance

    Greek Reference 652 1.  A delegate 2.  An Ambassador of the Gospel 3.  Officially a commissioner of Christ

    Other “English” words used for 652: 1.  Messenger (Philippians 2:25; 2 Corinthians 8:23)

    2.  He that is sent (John 13:16)

    1.  Philippians 2:25 (Messenger/Apostle) Strong’s Concordance 652

    Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

    2.  2 Corinthians 8:23 (Messenger/Apostle) Strong’s Concordance 652 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

    3.  John 13:16 (Sent/Apostle) Strong’s Concordance 652 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    Game over.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  73. Dear A. Amos Love,
    Now Ed also seems to have answered my question.
    Regarding
    “What is an Apostle”?
    It seems Ed believes also that
    “words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible”
    are
    “insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong.”

    Instead, Ed goes with Strong’s Concordance

    According to words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible, there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias. Neither Jesus, nor any of the Original Apostles, ever said that Paul was an Apostle. And none of them ever referred to any specific man outside of the 12 as Apostles either.

    Jesus did walk with the 12 Apostles for 3 1/2 years, and ultimately they were sent. But in John 13:16 Jesus is not designating or appointing anyone an apostle, He is not expanding His own definition to include men outside the 12 who walked with Him for 3 1/2 years, and He certainly isn’t appointing Paul an apostle.

    Other than Paul talking about himself, no one in the pages of the New Testament ever said that Paul was appointed an apostle, and no one else recognized Paul individually as an apostle either.
    Ed has not refuted these facts, and no one else in the world has either.

    What about you?
    Do you go with Jesus and the Original Apostles?
    or do you “go with Paul and Strong’s Concordance”?

    Like

  74. Matthew Perri,

    Peter acknowledges that Paul is an apostle.  Peter’s epistles are public domain, and so was Paul’s epistles that Peter discussed.  There has never been any historical claim, let alone evidence that revealed any other epistles of Paul than the ones that we have in our Bibles. 

    They can find the Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Thomas, etc., which no real Christian will acknowledge, but absolutely no mention of any alternative Paul letters. 

    So, without evidence of any such claim Matthew Perri needs to go.

    Leave the Spiritual Abuse Blogs, Matthew, because you are dangerous, and you will, if you haven’t already, produce victims. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  75. Gary W

    Now that is funny…

    John Paul Jackson, is one of MP’s sources.

    MP writes @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 6:34 PM…
    “Here is a relevant quote from John Paul Jackson,”

    And John Paul Jackson calls Paul, The Apostle Paul, on facebook… 🙂
    “The Apostle Paul tells us to be a slave of righteousness—are you?”

    MP keeps asking…

    “I’ve stated what I believe, and my sources that are the basis for my belief.

    Based on these sources, do you agree?
    Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?”

    Now, I do NOT agree with most of what John Paul Jackson says, stands for…
    But, and this is really tough for me, in this case I’ll make an acception… 😉

    Yes – Based on MP’s source, John Paul Jackson,

    I agree with John Paul Jackson, calling Paul, “The Apostle Paul.”

    Like

  76. Matthew Perri

    You ask @ MAY 30, 2014 @ 11:19 AM…
    “What about you?”
    “Do you go with Jesus and the Original Apostles?”
    “or do you “go with Paul”?”

    How many times do I have to tell you, On this point we agree. Sheeessshhh.
    Jesus always taught WE, His Ekklesia, His Disciples, to follow Him, Jesus…
    Jesus NEVER said WE, His Sheep, should follow Mere Fallible Humans.

    The question is – Do you, Matthew Perri, follow Jesus?
    Is MP, one of His Disciples? Learning from Jesus directly? NO Middle Man?

    Jesus said, “…And they shall be ALL taught of God…” John 6:45
    “MY Sheep – Hear MY Voice – and Follow ME.” John 10:27

    Or – Do you just say – You follow Jesus?

    “But to facilitate a more orderly discussion,”

    1 – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others do that?

    I ask because I’m having a hard time believing you follow Jesus. 😦

    If I’m wrong – Please forgive me….
    If I’m correct – Pease repent… 😉

    Like

  77. Matthew Perri

    Have you decided to follow Tertullion? And NOT Jesus?

    In the link you provided @ MAY 28, 2014 @ 7:38 PM…
    http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/56-marcionism.html

    “Tertullion in Against Marcion rebutted Marcion **by attacking Paul.** He questioned whether Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, saying a self-serving claim, as Paul made of being an apostle of Jesus, does not suffice. Tertullian suggested Paul was a false prophet. He also called Paul the “apostle of the heretics.”

    Why would you lead, point, WE, His Sheep His Ekklesia, to Tertullion?”

    And NOT lead, point, folks to Jesus?

    Like

  78. Matthew Perri

    You write @ JUNE 1, 2014 @ 12:34 PM…
    “Dear A. Amos Love
    I can’t answer 20 points all at the same time.”

    Okay, maybe you’re correct… BUT…
    Personally, I do NOT think you’re trying very hard. 😉
    Personally, I do NOT think you want to answer the *particular points.*
    Personally, I do No think you count very well.
    There are only six *particular points* – NOT 20 points… 😉

    “But to facilitate a more orderly discussion,”
    Let’s try them one at a time…

    MP, are you able to admit you were wrong about this *particular point?*

    1 – Paul the Pharisee did NOT know Deut. 6:5, The Greatest Commandment?

    You accused Paul @ MAY 16, 2014 @ 10:12 PM…
    Of NOT knowing The Greatest, Most Important, First commandment.
    You write – “Paul the Pharisee *didn’t know*
    the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus.”

    How do you know Paul did NOT know?
    “the greatest, most important, first commandment?”

    You call Paul a Pharisee, and ALL Pharisee’s would be familiar with…

    Deut 6:5 KJV – and – Deut 10:12-13 KJV
    And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
    and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    Which is what Jesus said when asked – What is The Greatest Commandment?

    ….. After all, you, MP, call him, “Paul the Pharisee.”

    So, MP, are you able to admit you were wrong about this *particular point?*

    1 – Paul the Pharisee did NOT know Deut. 6:5, The Greatest Commandment?

    Like

  79. A. Amos Love
    I’ve had extensive dialogue with you and two other men here on this thread regarding the question
    “What is an Apostle”?
    and specifically what are your sources for your definition?

    I learned something new from you about the word “apostleship” which I did not know before, so I want to thank you yet again for bringing my error to light. But you have still left the central question unanswered, “What is an Apostle”? I want to be further enlightened from your extensive knowledge base about any misunderstanding in my thinking, so I don’t want to drop this question and change the subject without resolving the question. Perhaps we may just agree to disagree. But you are an intelligent man, so together we should be able to state clearly in agreement WHY we disagree. I think the reason is because we are relying on different sources to answer this one question, “What is an Apostle”?

    My sources to answer THIS ONE QUESTION are
    the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible.

    Not Paul
    Not the passing editorial comments out of context of Paul’s Gentile friend Luke
    Not Strong’s Concordance
    Not a Greek Dictionary
    Not church tradition
    Not John Paul Jackson
    Not the opinion of any other living man

    What are YOUR sources to answer THIS ONE QUESTION
    “What is an Apostle”?

    Like

  80. So Matthew….

    You write…
    “But you have still left the central question unanswered,”
    “What is an Apostle?”

    But – I think “the central question unanswered” is…

    Do you, Matthew Perri, follow Jesus?

    And – How do you follow Jesus?

    Because, I’m-a-havin-hard-time believing you follow the Jesus I know. 😦

    ————–

    And – I can NOT recall your definition of – “What is an Apostle?”
    So, I do NOT know if I agree with your definition or NOT… 😉

    Now, I cudda missed your definition – so please help me out…

    Matthew Perri – “What is an Apostle?”

    As, “recorded in the text of the Bible?”

    Like

  81. Matthew Perri

    And Please…

    Just give the “text of the Bible” that explain “What is an Apostle?”

    So I can read them for myself without your interpretation of what they mean.

    Thanks

    Like

  82. A. Amos Love
    I have already explained my definition above, if you want to look. ( I know that the 4 of us have written a lot.) But unless we agree on what the sources are to define “what is an Apostle” then it doesn’t really matter what I say or quote again. If our sources are different, we will never agree.

    My sources are the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible,

    Do you agree to define “what is an Apostle” according to these sources?
    Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?

    Like

  83. Amos,

    MP would make a good attorney. If the statutes were against him he would ask to judge to only look only at the case law. If the case law was against him, he would ask the judge to look at only the statutes. Trouble is, the judges would see through his subterfuge, just like we now see through his subterfuge.

    Plus which, apostle means apostle, and just because Jesus didn’t use the word apostle when He commissioned Paul on the Damascus road, Jesus Himself assigned to Paul the apostolic task to the gentiles. Even applying his own criteria, MP loses the argument.

    “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

    Perhaps I will begin to refer to Matthew as Mr. Dumpty.

    Like

  84. Pau wrote to the church he was running as an abusive absentee leader:
    “Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.” [1 Corinthians 9:2]

    So Paul the Pharisee, in his own words admits that he “may not be an apostle” to some people. But he’s an apostle to the people reading his letter to the Corinthians. Others have their truth about what an apostle is and you Corinthians have your own truth! Just because something isn’t true for them doesn’t mean it’s not true for you! Paul is saying that the truth about what an apostle means is relative truth.

    “When I use a word,’ Paul the Phairsee said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

    Like

  85. A Amos Love

    Even tho I agree with your premise to follow Jesus, Paul states:

    1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    Paul is indicating that he follows Christ, and in the same manner that he follows Christ, we should follow his lead.  And I agree.

    I told Matthew, Lead, follow, or get out of the way! 

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  86. Matthew Perri asks A Amos Love the following: “Do you agree to define “what is an Apostle” according to these sources? Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?”

    My response: Until you respond in regards to my question about Peter’s reference to Paul’s epistles, your question is mute.

    If Peter acknowledges Paul, the Peter is agreeing that Paul is an apostle.  And if that be the case, you have no case.  Period.  With a period.

    Go away!

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  87. Matthew Perri,

    I have no idea where the teaching that Luke was a Gentile originated from, but I have heard it before.

    Jews wrote the Gospels, and Jews wrote the epistles.

    Luke HAD TO BE A JEW.

    Why?

    Because Paul was a Pharisee.  Paul would not have had social relations with a Gentile while he was a Pharisee.  Even Peter would not until God gave him a vision, for it is UNLAWFUL for a Jew.  

    Acts 10:28

    And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    ________________________________

    Like

  88. Matthew Perri

    You write @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 11:12 AM…
    “I have already explained my definition above, if you want to look.”

    I have looked, and I can NOT find your definition for “What is an Apostle?” I searched this thread and found the term “What is an Apostle?’ 29 times. And, “What is an Apostle? is 18 times, in the comments of Matthew Perri.

    Wow – I must have a lot of time on my hands – Maybe I need a hobby… 😉

    And, I can NOT find, once, your definition of “What is an Apostle?”
    You state your sources – But, I can NOT find your definition…

    You write @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 11:12 AM…
    “My sources are the words and actions of Jesus
    and the Original Apostles recorded in the text of the Bible,

    Do you agree to define “what is an Apostle” according to these sources?
    Or do you think my sources are insufficient, irrelevant, or wrong?”
    ———-

    Matthew – Your sources are fine.
    If your sources are -”recorded in the text of the Bible?”

    That’s why I asked you @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 10:32 AM….

    “Matthew Perri – “What is an Apostle?”

    As, “recorded in the text of the Bible?”

    Then added…

    And Please…

    Just give the “text of the Bible” that explain “What is an Apostle?”

    So I can read them for myself without your interpretation of what they mean.

    Thanks
    ————–

    Please – A little help here – From your sources… 😉
    What is your definition for “What is an Apostle?”
    What are the “text of the Bible” that explain “What is an Apostle?”
    What are “the words and actions of Jesus” that explain “What is an Apostle?

    Thanks again…

    Like

  89. Matthew Perri

    You write @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 12:27 PM…
    “Paul wrote to the church he was running as an abusive absentee leader:”

    SHHHHEEEESSSHH!!! I thought we covered this… 😉

    Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
    Where Paul was abusive?

    Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
    Where Paul calls himself – Leader?

    Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
    Where anyone calls Paul – Leader?

    Can you show me, “recorded in the text of the Bible,”
    Where any of His Disciples, His Apostles, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His sons,
    Called them self – Leader? Called another Disciple – Leader?

    Seems Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called Leader.
    For you have “ONE” Leader – The Christ.

    And NONE did… NOT one of His Disciples called them self Leader.
    In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” 😉

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    Now, you say you follow Jesus. – BUT – Do you?

    Why isn’t what Jesus said important? 😉

    Jesus, is – “recorded in the text of the Bible,” saying…

    The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader…. IS…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  90. The common, classical definition of “apostle” is one whom Jesus commissioned and sent out to share his message. This happened in two different time periods in his ministry. First he sent out the 70 (or 72), including the twelve. Second, after his resurrection, he commissioned, according to the Gospels and the first part of Acts, over 500, including the women at the tomb. Some people limit the use of “Apostle blank” with a capital A to the Eleven, since Jesus did not replace the missing one directly, but the Eleven did. But both concepts have existed since early church history. There is also a NT reference to Junia as an apostle.

    Matthew wants to argue that only the Eleven plus one (and not Saul/Paul) should be referred to as “Apostles”. That is a very old argument, as is the position regarding the 500. More recent is the treatment of Junia, due to centuries of mistaken translation.

    This argument will not be resolved here. Any good, non Patriarchist seminary library will have many volumes that relate to this argument. It is not resolvable. There are excellent authorities on every side.

    So let’s drop this and be busy about helping those who have been hurt, working to prevent additional hurt, and reaching out to those who need to know Jesus.

    Like

  91. A. Amos Love,
    Blessings to you in the name above all names, Jesus.

    So we agree to consider the question “What is an Apostle” with the sources being the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles in the text of the New Testament.

    .1) Gospel of Mark – time lag between being appointed and being sent
    “Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. He appointed twelve – designating them apostles – that they might be with him…” [Mark 3:13-14]

    Three chapters later,
    “Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.” [Mark 6:6-7]

    .2) Gospel of Luke – time lag between being appointed and being sent
    “One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon…..” [Luke 6:12-14]

    Again three chapters later,
    “When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.” [Luke 9:1-2]

    .3) Gospel of Matthew – which is organized by theme, not necessarily in chronological order.
    “He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon…” [Matthew 10:1]

    Without any clear time reference, continuing on the theme of the Apostles, Matthew does record “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions…” [Matthew 10:5] Matthew never said that the Apostles were “sent out” immediately after being appointed. If we didn’t also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. In this case, that assumption would clearly be wrong. The Twelve Apostles were absolutely NOT sent out right away after being appointed Apostles, according to Mark chapters 3 through 6, and Luke chapters 6 through 9.

    So being an Apostle of Jesus involves being sent by Jesus, yes. But that isn’t the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. The first thing was “that they might be with Him” personally, together, for His entire earthly ministry, from the time of John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven. Jesus poured his life into the 12 Apostles for 3 ½ years very personally training them to be the leaders of the church, and Jesus chose Peter as first among equals.

    The NIV translation inserts the heading “Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas” for the passage Luke wrote in Acts 1:12-26]. The NIV headings were not part of the original text, and sometimes they can be misleading, but in this case I believe the heading is right on.

    Jesus and the Original Apostles knew what an Apostle is better than anyone else in the world. Why is this a strange idea? Why do so many people frequently attack and tear down and dismiss the Original Apostles, particularly Peter, as if they were all incompetent, stupid, and wrong in so many ways, and they didn’t even know what an “Apostle” was? The answer to that question is, they have been listening to the voice of Paul, rather than the voices of Jesus and the Original Apostles.

    As we consider the question “what is an Apostle”, we should carefully listen to the words of the leader that Jesus personally appointed as first among the Apostles, and trained personally for 3 ½ years, Peter.

    “It is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” [Acts 1:21-22]

    Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a “witness with the Apostles of Jesus’ resurrection”, which is what it means to be an Apostle. Matthias was qualified, appointed, and later recognized as part of The Twelve. No one except Judas ever lost his apostleship.

    Responding to a question from Peter,
    “Jesus said to them:
    …you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Matthew 19:28]

    We cannot prove that Judas was present at that time, and we cannot prove that Matthias was absent at that time when Jesus spoke those words. Even if Judas was physically present, as we all realize now, he was not a true follower of Jesus. And even if Matthias was physically absent at that particular occasion, Jesus is still establishing the basic qualification for having one of the twelve thrones as being “you who have followed me,” not someone who will follow Jesus in the future, like Paul, James, Luke or anyone else in the world.

    At the Last Supper, Jesus said to His Apostles:
    “You are those who have stood by me in my trials. And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Luke 22:28-30]

    Was Judas present when Jesus spoke those words? Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we can’t prove that Judas wasn’t there at the time, we certainly can’t prove that Judas WAS there. Judas obviously didn’t stand by Jesus in his trial, as the whole world knows. But that was the requirement Jesus gave to “sit on thrones:” “You are those who have stood by me in my trials.” “You”, speaking to His 11 Apostles who had been walking with Him faithfully for 3 ½ years. Not others in the future who will follow the risen Jesus Christ. Notice that at the Last Supper, when Judas lost his throne and Matthias was definitely absent, Jesus chose to speak of “thrones” rather than “twelve thrones” as he had previously.

    The Apostle John recorded about the New Jerusalem,
    “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” [Revelation 21:14]

    The Apostles are 12 faithful eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, and Matthias is the 12th. That’s the short version of my definition of “what is an Apostle.”

    Like

  92. Matthew Perri,

    That didn’t answer a thing. All you did was clarify WHO the Apostles were up thru Acts Chapter 1.

    You neglected to clarify WHAT IS AN APOSTLE. What is not a who. Nice try…NOT! LOL!!!!!!

    Ed

    Like

  93. But, I will play your game:

    Revelation 2:2
    I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

    What? Do you see how this is worded? How is a person who claims to be an apostle tried?

    The definition of an apostle does not negate Paul as an Apostle, nor does the mention of 12 apostles in Revelation negate Paul as an Apostle.

    WHY do I say that?

    Because THE TWELVE are in regards to JEWS ONLY. In Revelation you will see CLEARLY, of course, the mention of 12 tribes, and prophets (OLD TEST PROPHETS).

    Just like THE PROPHETS are in regards to JEWS ONLY.

    Paul was an Apostle to the GENTILES!

    The Foundation of the Church is the PROPHETS and the Apostles with Jesus being the Cornerstone.

    The GOSPELS are NOT FOR THE GENTILES. You noted that Jesus sent out the 72. What were the instructions?

    DO NOT GO TO THE GENTILES. It is only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

    JEWS vs. GENTILES. 12 Apostles (JEWS) vs. Many more than just “the twelve” (GENTILES).

    Ed

    Like

  94. Ed

    Back @ JUNE 2, 2014 @ 3:12 PM, you write about…

    Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    “Paul is indicating that he follows Christ, and in the same manner that he follows Christ, we should follow his lead. And I agree.”

    I do NOT dis-agree – And to clarify “AS” I’m seeing it now…. Oy Vey!!!

    First, the word, “follow.” Second, the words, “even as.”
    “Follow” is Strongs #3402, and means “Imitate.”
    “Even As” is Strongs #2531 and means “according to, as, how, when.”

    Could Paul be ““Introduceing a Condition” here?
    Be ye followers of me – Imitate me – “EVEN AS?” – “WHEN?”

    Follow me, Imatate me – “EVEN AS” – I imitate Jesus.
    Imatae me – “WHEN” – I imatate Jesus.

    I do NOT think Paul is saying, like so many pastor/leaders say today…
    Follow me – I’m the Leader. I’m the Boss. I lead, you follow. – You follow Me…

    So, for me, the focus is still on Following Jesus, The “ONE” Leader, First.
    So I can know WHEN Paul is following Jesus. Imatating Jesus.

    Like

  95. Ed

    I’ve been told, folks are taught how to know “counterfeit money”
    By handling The Real Thing “real money” “leagal money”….
    Over and over, and over, and over again, and again, and… Because…
    WHEN you know The Real Thing – The Phoney Thing feels different.
    ————

    So, Today I recommend for WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church…
    First – WE, have to spend time with Jesus. WE, have to get to know Jesus.
    First – WE, have to be one of His Sheep and “Hear His Voice.” John 10:27
    First – WE have to Follow Jesus for ourselves, and Serve Him. John 12:26
    First – WE, “Observe” what Jesus taught His Disciples. Mat 28:19-20 KJV
    So, WE, can GO, and teach ALL nations, what Jesus taught His Disciples.

    Then WE, will know “IF” or “WHEN” Paul Follows Jesus. Imatates Jesus.
    Or, “IF” or “WHEN” wanna-be pastor/leaders say they – Follow Jesus… 😉

    Seems, In My Experience…
    Most pastor/leaders *ignore” or *Twist* what Jesus taught His Disciples.

    Yes – Imitate Jesus. – And – Imitate Paul, “WHEN” he is Imitating Jesus… 😉

    So, WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His sons, His Disciples, His Kids…
    Have to spend time with, Hear His Voice, know His Ways…

    So, AS, WHEN, the phonies show up…

    Your first reaction is – Hey – This, errr, stuff, ain’t the Jesus I know… 😉

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}

    Like

  96. ED

    Jesus as man, came NOT to be served – but – to serve…
    and to give His life a ransom for many. Mat 20:28 NASB

    Jesus as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation…
    And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.

    So, Paul, Imitating Jesus, made himself a “Servant” to all.
    NOT seeking his own profit, but the profit of many.

    1 Cor 9:19
    For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself “Servant” to all.

    1 Cor 10:33
    Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit,
    but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
    ————

    Jesus, as man, referred to himself as a “Servant.”
    “I am among you as he that serveth”. Luke 22:27.
    “The Son of man did NOT come to be served but to serve.” Mark 10:45.

    So, Paul, Imitating Jesus as man, always referred to himself as “Servant.”
    And – ALL of **His Disciples** Imitated Jesus as man,
    ALL called themselves “Servants.” NOT one called them self “Leader.”

    Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ…
    Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ…
    Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ…
    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God…
    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God…
    2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant…
    ————

    Jesus, said, He could do nothing of Himself. And was taught of the Father.
    “but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.” John 8:28

    Paul, Imitating Jesus as man, said that “his gospel” was NOT of man,
    he received it from God and he conferred NOT with flesh and blood.

    Ga 1:11-16
    …the gospel which was preached of me is NOT after man.
    For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it,
    but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

    16-To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
    immediately I conferred NOT with flesh and blood:
    ————–

    Seems to me, IF WE, His Sheep, are Following Paul Following Jesus?
    As they, Jesus and Paul received it? Directly from God? NO middle man?
    Then WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, have to get it from God for ourselves…
    Also… And NOT from man…

    Just like Jesus as man, received it from God.
    And, Just like Paul who “neither received it of man,” received it from God.

    NO middle Man….
    ———-

    Yes – Imitate Jesus.
    And – Follow, Imitate Paul, “”AS,”“WHEN” Paul is Imitating Jesus… 😉

    Like

  97. Matthew Perri

    Thank you for “Your” definition of “What is an Apostle?”
    And – I do NOT agree – Because – you did NOT answer the question… 😦

    And – Like Ed said about your response @ JUNE 3, 2014 @ 6:46 PM…
    “That didn’t answer a thing. All you did was clarify WHO the Apostles were up thru Acts Chapter 1.”

    “You neglected to clarify “WHAT IS AN APOSTLE?” 😦

    And the verses you quoted needed lots of “YOUR” explanations… 😦
    I asked for just what is “recorded in the text of the Bible”

    And, you write in the 9th para. @ JUNE 3, 2014 @ 12:25 PM…
    “Jesus poured his life into the 12 Apostles for 3 ½ years very personally training them to be the leaders of the church, and Jesus chose Peter as first among equals.”

    NOPE – Looks like you are wrong again…
    MP, I had such high hopes for you… 😉

    “first among equals” is a term NOT found in “your” required sources…
    “recorded in the text of the Bible.”

    Seems you added to the scriptures – “first among equals”… 😉
    Naughty – Naughty… 😉

    And – “You” say Jesus trained 12 Apostles as “the leaders of the church,”
    BUT – That is NOT – “recorded in the text of the Bible.”

    Seems you added to the scriptures – “the leaders of the church,”… 😉
    Naughty – Naughty… 😉

    What is “recorded in the text of the Bible.” IS…

    Jesus, teaching His Disciples, His Apostles, NOT to be called Leaders.
    For you have “ONE” Leader, The Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB.

    And NOT one of His Disciples called themselves Leader. Church Leader.

    Even Peter, an apostle, called himself “Servant.” Go figure… 😉

    2 Pet 1:1 – Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ…

    NOT Peter, NOT The Bible, ever calls Peter, Leader, or, Leader of the church.

    Kinda hard for a “Servant” to be “first among equals.” 😉

    Seems you added that to the scriptures… 😉
    Naughty – Naughty… 😉

    NOPE – Looks like you are wrong again…

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Like

  98. I am sure that Julie Anne will be deleting your post when she sees it, but in the meantime, just let me say that you are a despicable human being, anonymous.

    Like

  99. Pingback: Most Clicked Links in 2014 | Spiritual Sounding Board

  100. Yeah, know for a fact well someone said were going to investigate Calvary Chapel. Yes, FINALLY, maybe will do documentary and finally expose the cult and ALL it’s abuses and noted who the religious Pharisee’s and Saducee’s who are defending the lie at any cost, wonder if in sin? They should take into consideration and expose those that are defending and see what into, their abuses, their sins, advice given to parishioner’s and their lifestyle (how well they live off the C.C. Evil empire). Will suggest that.

    Like

  101. Hi BOS

    Thanks for the recommendation of “Apostolic Foundation by Arthur Katz”
    Sorry, I only read the intro, but, I do NOT agree with Arthur Katz.

    I found his book online…
    https://archive.org/stream/ApostolicFoundationByArthurKatz/The%20Prophetic%20Call%20by%20Art%20Katz_djvu.txt

    Arthur writes in the intro to his book… if the words “prophetic and apostolic” are “ruined, cheapened, made merchandise of, lose their meaning…”
    “…then we have lost our foundation.”

    “There are two great words that I guard with a fierce jealousy, namely, prophetic and apostolic. The church is “…built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. ..(Eph. 2:20b)”, and if those two words are ruined, cheapened, made merchandise of, lose their meaning or are made to stand for something that God
    did not intend, then we have lost our foundation. If there is something flaky about our apostles and prophets, then what will the superstructure be if it is based on that foundation?”
    ————–

    Arthur Katz is saying in his book, like many today, that “the apostles and prophets” are THE Foundation of The Church. And refers to Eph 2:20, written by Paul.

    1 – But, Paul does NOT mention the word church in all of Eph 2. Hmmm? Where did Artur get that from if NOT from the Bible? What is being built in Eph 2, is a dwelling place of God. That would be… WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, His Temple, His House, His kids…

    NOT a building people go to Sunday Morning. NOT a Denomination. NOT an Organization. NOT a 501 c 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation…
    That the IRS calls chuch.

    2 – Paul, who is an apostle, also wrote, in 1 Cor 3:9-11…
    “as a wise master builder I have laid *The Foundation…”
    “…which is Jesus Christ.”

    Do WE, His Sheep, have Two Foundations?
    1 – Jesus Christ? 2 – And “the apostles and profits?”

    I’m-a-stickin-wit… There is only “ONE” Foundation.
    For WE, His Temple, His House, His Building…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  102. BOS

    I was also taught that the foundation of the church was…
    the apostles and prophets… Oy Vey!!! 😦

    But one day, while reading 1 Cor 3:9-11, I realized, I was led astray. – Again…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
    ——-
    Here, read for yourself, 1 Cor 3:9-11 NKJV, Paul “Laid The Foundation.”
    9 – We are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field,
    you are God’s building.

    10 – According to the grace of God which was given to me,
    as a wise master builder I have laid “The Foundation,”
    and another builds on it.
    But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

    11 – For NO other foundation can anyone lay
    than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    ———-
    BOS, After you read, 1 Cor 3:9-11 NKJV…
    Who is, “The Foundation” of Paul, the apostle?
    Who is, “The Foundation” of ALL the apostles and prophets?
    ———-
    After I read, 1 Cor 3:9-11 NKJV, “The Foundation” is {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    My understanding of Eph 2:20, was… errr… improved… 😉
    ———-
    Here is how I now understand Eph 2:20…

    Eph 2:19-22 NKJV
    19 – Now, therefore, you are NO longer strangers and foreigners,
    but fellow citizens with the saints
    and members of the household of God,

    2:20 a – having been built on the foundation
    of the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ
    2:20 b – Himself being the chief cornerstone,

    21 – in whom the whole building, being joined together,
    grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

    22 – in whom you also are being built together
    for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
    ———-
    Wouldn’t *The Foundation* in Eph 2:20, be “Jesus Christ?”
    Who is also, *The Chief Corner Stone?*

    To match *The Foundation* in 1 Cor 3:9-11, “Jesus Christ?”
    Which Paul, an apostle, and a master builder, laid?
    ———-

    Arthur Katz says…
    If “Apostles and Prophets“ are “ruined, cheapened, lose their meaning.”
    “…then we have lost our foundation.”

    NOPE – My Foundation promised to never leave me nor forsake me…
    The “ONE” Foundation – The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Leader….

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  103. Pingback: Spiritual Sounding Board: The Legacy That a Defamation Lawsuit Left to the Survivor Community | Spiritual Sounding Board

  104. I first attended Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale in 1995, and got my first glimpse of Pastor Bob Coy. He reminded me of Dana Carey from SNL. I instantly took a liking to him, loved his sermons!
    A friend had told me, that there were death threats against him, I don’t know if that was true or not, that sounded very strange. I eventually left Florida for California, but still studied the Bible under P.B.
    Years go by, and I had planned on coming back to CCFL, and wanting to study with the women’s ministry and Diane Coy. On my birthday, in 2014, my life was forever changed by the devastating news of what P.B. had done.
    At first, I was shocked, then angry. Here I studied and listened to this man speak the Word for over 20 years! Then hear he was cheating on Diane with several women and he was up to his eyeballs in porn.
    His past was filled with that behaviour, but, I assumed he gave it up to follow Jesus.
    Apparently I was wrong, the devil followed him to Florida. I wonder what caused him to not care about his wife and kids and do what he did, can you imagine the women who he bedded?
    If any church leaders in this country ever let this man pastor again, I suggest running from the church, I certainly wouldn’t be able to ever trust him as a godly Preacher again.

    Like

  105. When I first heard Bob Coy preach as a guest at Lloyd Pulley’s church in the mid 90s I thought Bob was Las Vegas leftover from standup comedy, given his testimony. He wouldn’t have been like that if he were trained in homiletics at a seminary. (He wouldn’t have passed the hiring committee of any local church. But then again, CC pastors don’t apply–they found a church, then rule unopposed by eldership or laity.) Follow your money, fellow believers. If you don’t get a voice for the leadership’s accountability to you, then vote with your wallet and your backside! I left CC in 2000 after Lloyd’s preaching was getting spookily shaky over Y2K, and he was chalking up more air miles than a Madison Ave. executive!

    Like

  106. Wow, did Alex have to stop his Calvary Chapel Abuse site forever? Last couple times I tried I could not get it online. I suppose it must be because of how the lawsuit turned out. So sad.

    Like

  107. I don’t think he has permanently stopped it. He has had times where he steps away from it a bit. Right now he’s trying to stay focused on his upcoming court case. He’s fine, just deliberately minimizing distractions and keeping focus on important things.

    Like

  108. Pingback: Spiritual Sounding Board: Updating the Legacy – Year 5 | Spiritual Sounding Board

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s