Kevin Swanson Continues a Year Later with Same Womb Tomb Rhetoric

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Popular homeschool leader Pastor Kevin Swanson continues to give unsubstantiated claims about birth control pills being “womb tombs” despite apologizing for misunderstanding in the media storm he created last year.

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Last year, Kevin Swanson created quite the media firestorm with his womb tomb comment:

Kevin Swanson:

I’m beginning to get some evidence from certain doctors and certain scientists that have done research on women’s wombs after they’ve gone through the surgery, and they’ve compared the wombs of women who were on the birth control pill to those who were not on the birth control pill. And they have found that with women who are on the birth control pill, there are these little tiny fetuses, these little babies, that are embedded into the womb. They’re just like dead babies. They’re on the inside of the womb. And these wombs of women who have been on the birth control pill effectively have become graveyards for lots and lots of little babies.  (Source)

In February 2013, he issued a follow-up statement on his earlier womb tomb statement.  I have bolded key statements.

Posted On: February 11, 2013 by Kevin Swanson at Generations with Vision blog:

In a recent program, the matter of the abortifacient effects of the birth control pill on the womb was introduced and discussed (which resulted in a fair amount of controversy on the internet).  In the interview with the men who had researched the matter, it was stated that there was no persuasive scientific evidence for or against (identifying the remains or “impressions” of aborted fertilized eggs in the wombs of women on the contraceptive pill.)  Although I had heard reports of these “impressions” of aborted babies, we have yet to substantiate this as a fact. My apologies for any misunderstandings communicated. Our goal is to be as accurate as possible with the information that we distribute.  In a 30 minute extemporaneous program, it is hard to include all of the issues and the findings that should be considered.  (Source)

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Ok, so he says very clearly that he has not been able to get facts to substantiate his claims and then apologizes for any misunderstandings.

Coincidentally, The Wartburg Watch featured an article on Swanson yesterday () and also included back story on this heated topic.

Dee asked in the comments about any followup from Swanson on this topic and here was my response:

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Well, what do you know, late last night right before going to bed, I saw a tweet from Swanson:

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I hate it when this happens late at night.  Curiosity got the best of me and so I spent the next minutes transcribing.  

What was he going to say this year about the pill?  Had he changed his mind after receiving new information?  Was he going to soften his rhetoric this time?  

Well, here it is, about a year later – – the same crapola being spewed from this man-o-god’s mouth and the saddest thing of all is that people listen to and respect this guy and will blindly follow what he says without fact checking.  

I am not a professional transcriber, but I think it gets the heart of the message.  The first quote begins around the 3-minute mark of the broadcast:

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It’s just plain wrong for evangelicals to murder their children.  

My coverage of the birth control pill this last year just about rocked the internet.  I still uh . . are [sic] getting some feedback from that program. 

I said the womb is becoming a tomb for babies that don’t implant on the uterine wall and the birth control pill has that abortifacient quality in which it weakens the uterine wall. And any fertilized egg that makes it all the way to the uterus is not able to implant itself on that uterine wall and therefore the womb becomes a tomb from time to time.

My guess it happens in tens of millions of cases across the United States, at least since the 1960s when the birth control pill was released upon this Nation and many other nations.

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This next quote begins around the 6-minute mark.  He proudly discusses how his words and message (which I find frightening) have gone around the internet in news media (Huffington Post, etc):

We have been able to reach probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of evangelicals.  

 And we have challenged the conscience of the evangelical population of America saying, “Hey, you shouldn’t be killing your babies, you shouldn’t be doing damage to the uterine wall, making it difficult for that child to implant on that uterine wall, and thus turning the womb into a tomb.  You shouldn’t be doing this kind of thing.  Be careful about the abortifacient qualities of certain forms of birth control.”

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So what about those words he posted in February 2013?

 Although I had heard reports of these “impressions” of aborted babies, we have yet to substantiate this as a fact. My apologies for any misunderstandings communicated.Our goal is to be as accurate as possible with the information that we distribute.  In a 30 minute extemporaneous program, it is hard to include all of the issues and the findings that should be considered.

Swanson, either you have credible information or you do not.  It is not that difficult to say whether the information was made up by you or you found it from credible sources and naming them.

I have once again left a comment on the Generations Radio Facebook page and here is the screenshot.  It will be interesting to see if it remains.  They have removed my comments before.

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Screen Shot 2014-01-16 at 12.08.20 PM

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Here’s a little something I’d like to say to Swanson publicly about his behavior in misleading so many women by his misleading and harmful rhetoric.  Crank up the volume to get the full effect.

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Related links:

114 comments on “Kevin Swanson Continues a Year Later with Same Womb Tomb Rhetoric

  1. HA – I just checked the Facebook page and it’s gone and I see that they must have blocked me because there is no comment field anymore. That fast!! Ok, I guess I’ll have to tweet about it. When will he learn?

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  2. Swanson says evangelicals need to “repent.”

    Repent of what, again? I’m a 40-something woman who was a Christian since childhood, who is still a virgin (a literal virgin, not one of those “born again virgins” one reads about on blogs), because I was waiting until marriage to have sex, and I’ve not married yet. I came from a Southern Baptist, evangelical type of upbringing.

    I was engaged years ago, and during that time, due to health problems, I had to take birth control pills for a couple of years. I could have used being on birth control pills as an excuse to have sex with my fiance, but I did not.

    (Also note: some women take birth control pills for reasons not having anything to do with sex or procreation. Swanson is apparently totally ignorant of this fact).

    Swanson needs to realize he is inadvertently feeding into the high rate of pre-marital sex among evangelicals, and other Christians, by way of assuming that any and all unmarried Christians will have sex, or already are, or will do so, if only they start using birth control.

    Swanson: if you are going to assume I, an unmarried woman, is going to have pre-marital sex (whether I am on the pill or not), I might as well start fornicating!

    Thank you, Swanson, for holding me and other singles to such a very low standard, and for basically giving me an excuse, a green light if you will, to start having sex outside of marriage. I will be sure to use some form of birth control though, so as not to be an unwed mother.

    Swanson’s views on these issues are a slap in the face and an insult to adult, Christian singles who are still virgins past the age of 30.
    ———————–
    Julie Anne, you should consider sending Swanson a link to this post of mine on Twitter (unless he has already blocked you). I could maybe do so myself, if I can find my Twitter password.

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  3. When I was a teenager, or maybe in my 20s and I first thought about the ramifications of birth control, I thought it would be OK for married people. But now I think differently. I think the pill has major psychological affects which are to blame for most of our problems in the modern world, quite frankly. And the fact is, no store is carding to see if you’re married before giving it out. Its leading to unmarried people having more and more sex because they think the pill will prevent pregnancy. Then it fails. They either abort the child, or raise it with no morals so its becomes a criminal. And society is destroyed. And the pill is ultimately to blame, even if it is indirectly. I know it can’t ever be banned. Pandora’s box has already been opened and cannot be shut….not by anything short of a Terminator type apocalypse that takes us into a post apocalyptic world. So I’m not clamoring for the pill to be banned….just lamenting that God let the stinking mad scientists create this stuff to begin with. Sight. Why, Lord, why?

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  4. I question the medical appropriateness of using the pill for other things. For instance, they say it can have some affect in preventing ovarian cancer after being taken for 12 years. Yet studies always indicate it heightens the risk of breast cancer. So, saying you should take it to prevent ovarian cancer seems rather silly, like trading one cancer for another. In any case, older women taking it for other reasons is totally different. Even so, I think it poses a serious danger to mental health. I’ve read online about it causing acute mental disorders, and I know from all the clamor in politics over it that it certainly does. The Democrat women clamoring to make everyone pay for their pills are obviously totally insane. All they care about is getting that pill. Break everyone else to pay for it, they don’t care: its like demon possession.

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  5. When I was a teenager, or maybe in my 20s and I first thought about the ramifications of birth control, I thought it would be OK for married people. But now I think differently.

    David,

    Do you think it is ever appropriate for Christian couples to use birth control? If so, when? And who gets to decide this?

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  6. David, while I agree with your political position in making others pay may I offer some unsolicited advice?

    “I thought it would be OK for married people”

    A married couple is NOT on the pill. The woman is. :o) It is sweet to think taking the pill is a team endeavor but it isn’t. She decides. Period. And she might decide it is up to you to deal with birth control. (Hee Hee)

    My brother had a vasectomy after they had their fill of 2.5 kids. He was astonished when the female nurses brought him chocolate and flowers.

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  7. Anyone can do whatever they want. But while the new pope seems to be moving away from the Catholic position on birth control, I am ironically moving in that direction though not Catholic. It just seems to me that the pill has realized the Calvinist dream of making us all totally depraved better than anything else could. I think that the increase in homosexuality is probably related to the pill even, to some extent.

    As an aside, the passage about “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” in the OT (Exodus 22) came in a context actually about adultery and sexual promiscuity. Its always been puzzling to me, considering the context, that it uses the term “witch” rather than something more like “whore.” Until I figured out that witches in ancient times spent most of their time trying to come up with birth control methods. Inasmuch as the “witch” served the purpose of facilitating adultery and fornication with her “potions” it finally makes sense why the passage against her is in that context.

    BTW also, the accusation that birth control leaves dead babies in the womb is connected to witches, so I think Swanson made this connection. Look at the Wikipedia article History of Birth Control. A papal bull called Summis desiderantes affectibus or the “Witch-Bull of 1484” accused “witches” of having “slain infants yet in the mother’s womb.”

    I’m beginning to think the modern acceptance of birth control is akin to the modern acceptance of homosexuality and of adultery and fornication. Its the acceptance of something condemned in scripture, namely so-called “witchcraft.” That would mean that “witchcraft” in the Bible is not something mythological, but something concrete.

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  8. I think the pill has major psychological affects which are to blame for most of our problems in the modern world, quite frankly.

    Overstatement, much? This is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. The pill is to blame for the bad economy, joblessness, terrorism, pollution, government overspending, flash mob crimes, the desertification of Africa, wars, antibiotic resistance, identity theft, and the vanishing of the honeybees?

    Please, davidbrainerd2, connect those dots for me.

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  9. I’m beginning to think the modern acceptance of birth control is akin to the modern acceptance of homosexuality and of adultery and fornication.

    It seems like black/white thinking in your last comment, David. When you start walking in others’ shoes, you will typically find that black/white responses are not helpful, nor are they reality for a lot of people. There are so many variables to consider.

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  10. Galatians 5:20 the word pharmakeia translated as “witchcraft” has a close connection to pharmacy in English. I recognize that medicine is need to treat disease. But there is a line between treating disease and becoming a pill popper. And I think birth control pills cross that line.

    “Please, davidbrainerd2, connect those dots for me.”

    So many of those issues are dealt with by politicians, women politicians, who are on the pill, and thereby, insane. Of course the men politicians are also on prozac. That doesn’t help either.

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  11. Davidbrainerd, thank you for one of the best belly laughs I’ve had in a long time. The pill = insanity. That’s a new one.

    One aspect of my job is medical research. So, davidbrainerd2, why don’t you go to pubmed.com and find me valid medical studies that demonstrate birth control pills cause insanity?

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  12. So many of those issues are dealt with by politicians, women politicians, who are on the pill, and thereby, insane..

    David – – your rhetoric is sounding like Swanson. Please take a chill pill. (sorry, I couldn’t resist – lol)

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  13. One aspect of my job is medical research. So, davidbrainerd2, why don’t you go to pubmed.com and find me valid medical studies that demonstrate birth control pills cause insanity?

    Excellent response. I somewhat expected Swanson to be forthright in revealing his sources when he let spew come out of his mouth and was confronted last year. He didn’t. Prove yourself to be more credible than Swanson, David.

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  14. Interesting…last time I checked, the kindest, godliest women in my life were all on the pill…I guess I need to disown several witches from my family and acquaintance… 😉

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  15. OMG. Men, do me a favor and learn something about female anatomy and hormones before you make such ignorant statements. My daughter, a virgin, has been taking BC pills for two years. She got terrible pains every month when her 90 pound body would go looking in vain for the proper hormones. She would not be able to function without them. Also, BC pills put a damper on the sex drive, I also took BC pills for medical reasons. Stay out of my personal life, I shouldn’t have to explain myself to a bunch of wrinkled old white men who take Viagra.

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  16. If women weren’t trying to force us to pay for it with Obamacare, we probably would stay out of it. But until its repealed, I’m going to rant to my heart’s content. What needs to happen is the government needs to get everyone’s DNA on file, and whenever a child is born out of wedlock they find who the father is, and make him pay for the birth control of that woman for the rest of his life. After a few ones, she’ll have her birth control covered many times over. Then they can stop putting this as an expense on people who are outside the system.

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  17. Well, David, if you’re going to rant and issue rhetoric, you need to back it up. Don’t be a Swanson. You are dissing a lot of people – many Christians – by your comments. Let’s be above board and respectful.

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  18. Dear Velvet Voice, you rock! I’m not even going to try a reply to ‘brainy Davey’ up there – the hyperbolic, random thought process he goes through makes me think some WITCH has cast a spell on him. . .cackle, cackle. .

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  19. The pill = insanity. . sure you weren’t popping a few yourself, brainy Davey?? C’mon, ‘fess up!! . .. more cackling.. .
    . . . sorry, Julie Anne – just couldn’t resist!

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  20. The whole country is going to go broke because women are popping the pill like candy but refuse to pay for it themselves. And that’s all I have to say. I’m done.

    Really, David? You had some great things to say on the other thread, but come on, you can’t just throw stuff like that around without some push back here.

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  21. Actually David, the whole country would go broke paying for my medical bills from pregnancies that would devastate my body. Whatever form of birth control my fiance and I choose is actually saving us thousands of dollars. If that is some sort of hormonal birth control, great. If it is a vasectomy or tubal ligation, great. The end result is still the same – my family will not be stuck paying over $100k in bills resulting from the challenges that just one pregnancy would cause my body (and that is a conservative estimate). Some of us literally choose our life – that of the woman – when we choose birth control.

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  22. The whole country is going to go broke because women are popping the pill like candy but refuse to pay for it themselves.

    You mean, we’re NOT going broke because we’re overspending on defense and entitlements? That’s a relief! David, methinks you need to take a remedial math class if that’s what you actually believe. We could likely pay for birth control for every female in the country for their natural childbearing lifetime for what it costs to keep troops in Afghanistan for one month.

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  23. Thank you, Mandy, for providing a personal example of why the rhetoric and black/white thinking really is not beneficial when it comes to real people with legitimate needs that simply do not fit in a box.

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  24. “We could likely pay for birth control for every female in the country for their natural childbearing lifetime for what it costs to keep troops in Afghanistan for one month.”

    We could likely have payed everyone’s insurance policy for 10 years for the amount of money it cost to make healthcare.gov too. But the end goal is not healthcare. The end goal is to force everyone onto these drugs. Once the government is involved with their subsidies, they begin to have leverage to force you onto birth control, or whatever else. That’s the goal. And the process towards it would never have gotten off the ground if it weren’t for an army of birth-control-pill zombies who care about nothing but their next pill to pop. That’s the problem. The pill is a tool to control women, to make them vote for whatever crap the Democrats want. Its a mind-control pill.

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  25. David said, “I think the pill has major psychological affects which are to blame for most of our problems in the modern world, quite frankly.”

    *Sigh*

    I don’t even now how to begin to start on this. Yes, studies have shown that the pill can alter a woman’s mood. However, that doesn’t mean that all forms of the pill will alter a woman’s mood. Do you consider altering a woman’s mood a “psychological affect?” Guess what, though? There are many things that can alter a woman’s mood – not just the pill. Menopause also alters a woman’s mood. That’s not something that can be avoid though, can it?

    By the way, in the 22 years that I’ve been married, I’ve paid for my birth control pills. The entire time! It’s only “free” to me now because it’s covered by my insurance. My insurance that I pay for!

    And, for someone who wants to not have the government allow birth control pills, I find it a bit ironic that you’re willing to have them categorize everyone’s DNA.

    Oh, my last thought. Going to church severely altered my mood. You’ve hit a touchy subject, David.

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  26. The pill is a tool to control women, to make them vote for whatever crap the Democrats want. Its a mind-control pill.

    Are you for real? Or are you just throwing out this wild stuff and watching us react for the sake of sheer entertainment?

    You know what I think, David? I think the fact that a woman can control her own fertility and thus chart her own destiny drives you and Kevin Swanson batsh*t crazy. My guess is you see women’s independence as outright sin, and you want to control that by keeping them barefoot, pregnant, and dependent on their man alone. Annual pregnancies for every woman are your woman-control “pills” and the idea that women aren’t swallowing those “pills” anymore frustrates the heck outa you.

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  27. The end goal is to force everyone onto these drugs. Once the government is involved with their subsidies, they begin to have leverage to force you onto birth control, or whatever else. That’s the goal. And the process towards it would never have gotten off the ground if it weren’t for an army of birth-control-pill zombies who care about nothing but their next pill to pop. That’s the problem. The pill is a tool to control women, to make them vote for whatever crap the Democrats want. Its a mind-control pill.

    David, you have one last chance to provide proof to back up your words or you may be visiting this place.

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  28. David, I’d also like to know what commentaries or studies you have read that suggest that “witches” in ancient Mesopotamia primarily spent their time coming up with birth control methods. Interesting theory, especially since almost all of the ancient religions had some sort of fertility god. Fertility was very important during that time.

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  29. Julie Anne, I tried to do this via embedded links. I hope it works. If not, my apologies in advance.

    I suppose it isn’t odd at all that this bit of nonsense happens now. There has been a lot of discussion lately about the evangelical unease with contraception, that it is a relatively recent phenomenon, and that it is really rooted not in Biblical authority but in opposition to President Obama and the Affordable Care Act.
    Articles here (contraception in the Old Testament)
    And here (the evangelical campaign against birth control)
    And here (that it’s really about demographics and keeping women out of the pulpit)
    As that last article states,”safe, effective contraception has given thoughtful, faithful people the liberty and autonomy to ensure that their children are welcome, wanted and able to be cared for.

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  30. So let me (try to?) get David’s logic sorted out on this subject. Women are going to vote for democrats because it might get them free birth control pills.

    I just don’t follow you on this one.

    I was off and on the pill over a span of 30 years. I or we paid for it. It never caused me to vote any certain way. It never did anything to my mind. It did help alter my hormonal moods due to crazy cycles though — in that manner it made me feel less crazy.

    Right now you’re coming across like a crazy person in need of some hormonal balancing 🙂

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  31. “Interesting theory, especially since almost all of the ancient religions had some sort of fertility god. Fertility was very important during that time.”

    Good point, kind of ironic considering that a “fertility gospel” appears to underlie certain “Christian” thought patterns.

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  32. In slightly more pleasant news, I am currently spending two weeks in the mountains with my fiance. 🙂 We have set a date and now I have 13 days to nail down the details before heading back to TX for a few weeks. After much prayer and consideration I am also ordering my first wheelchair – its not worth living in so much pain just to maintain the pride of walking. I cannot begin to imagine what my life would be like if I did not have access to safe birth control. Not only do I choose life, I choose the best quality of life that is available to me, even in a wheelchair.

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  33. “I suppose it isn’t odd at all that this bit of nonsense happens now. There has been a lot of discussion lately about the evangelical unease with contraception, that it is a relatively recent phenomenon, and that it is really rooted not in Biblical authority but in opposition to President Obama and the Affordable Care Act.”

    Its not that opposition to birth control is about Obama, but that he is the one that forced it to the forefront with his overreach. Most people wouldn’t even think about the issue before. Why would they? They weren’t being asked or forced to pay for it. If they weren’t going to take it themselves, why would they even think about what they thought about others taking it?

    But now that an army of addicts has helped the enemy of the people ram it down everyone’s throats, people who otherwise would totally ignore the issue must confront it. The question must be asked now whether it is moral or immoral.

    Besides that, before women didn’t speak about it like now. You wouldn’t have caught a woman putting her birth control pill holder thing on top of a Bible(!) and taking a picture of it and posting it on the internet like at the first site that Ruth linked. Such horrid abomination and blasphemy, and disrespect for God’s word never occurred among so-called Christians on this public scale before. But now, the pill has become a god to many women, who cling to it even more than those in the Bible belt cling to God and guns according to Obama. Women who took the devil’s pill didn’t used to advertise, at least as far as I can tell.

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  34. David, do you get this excited about insurance paying for Viagra for men, something which policies have always covered?

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  35. David: Your sweeping generalizations about women who take birth control pills are not welcome here. A number of Christian women who do not fit the stereotype you are trying to present have told their personal stories and yet you keep going and going.

    Moderator hat is on: To the dog house you go for moderation.

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  36. “David, do you get this excited about insurance paying for Viagra for men, something which policies have always covered?”

    I would if Christian men were defended it…but I’ve never seen that happen.

    Mod note: this one passed my snark meter

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  37. Mandy – Congratulations on setting a date! I hope that they planning comes together easily for you. I remember 2 days before our wedding that I couldn’t make any more decisions. I just let people decide on simple things.

    Marsha – Good point about Viagra.

    David – I would guess that we don’t “hear” many Christian men defending Viagra because they’re not about to tell a man what he can or cannot do to his body. Plus, I’m sure there are some who take it and are very happy (despite some of those pesky side effects).

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  38. davidbrainerd2’s comments are giving me belly laughs, also. But then again, I find some of his comments funny, blunt & interesting. I wonder if he is trying to be funny, enjoys stirring the pot or likes the attention on this topic as the only male commenter. His over the top comments have me rolling. Dunno, maybe I have a weird sense of humor.

    Anyway, most pills/meds have side-affects… not just the BC pill. Try reading the contra-indications on meds, it’s pages long no matter what the med is. It comes down to a cost/benefit analysis on health as to whether to take a med.

    “I recognize that medicine is need to treat disease. But there is a line between treating disease and becoming a pill popper. And I think birth control pills cross that line.” davidbrainerd2

    davidbrainerd2, There are some women who experience excruciating pain during that “time” of the month. I was nauseous, puked, fainted, & then had unbelievable pain-waves, all in that order. It happened at work, church, home, etc. The Dr. prescribed BC pill & muscle relaxer for the symptoms. They regulated me, alleviated symptoms & allowed me to function normally. Actual labor pain doesn’t compare. After giving birth, I no longer experienced it to that extent so I didn’t take it.

    You can call me a pill-popping (like it’s candy) zombie soldier in the addiction army. Now that’s funny. 😉

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  39. “just lamenting that God let the stinking mad scientists create this stuff to begin with. Sight. Why, Lord, why?” davidbrinerd2

    Hmmm. I think they chose/decided to do so…. You’re not assigning someone’s action to God are you, db2?

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  40. Meant to say: You CALLED me a pill-popping (like it’s candy) zombie soldier in the addition army. Now that’s funny. 😉

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  41. You’re not groaning for heaven’s sakes, db2. lol You’re trying to get our goat.

    I am so having a hard time taking you seriously right now! And I’m still trying to stop laughing!

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  42. There’s lots of ‘I think’ in your posts, David, and not a single skerrick of evidence. You might blame all of society’s ills on those naughty sl*tty women taking birth control, but data doesn’t support you. Nor does it support your dismissal of the use of birth control for other health issues (as a start, look up polycystic ovary syndrome). So basically, you are factually wrong.

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  43. Normally, when someone repeatedly makes the kind of hyperbolic statements that David has been making here, I mentally write them off as irrational or hateful and cease engaging with him. If someone cannot back up the points they are making with evidence, discussions can go nowhere.

    I am sensing something different here. David is not making me laugh and he isn’t even making me irritated, he is making me concerned. Maybe I am reading too much into your posts, David, but you do seem to be very upset. I wonder if we can help you in some way because it does seem like you really do want to engage with us.

    If we take out the arguments that lack evidence, ie the pill being an abortifacient or causing insanity or addiction, we are left with two issues. One is the political one concerning insurance which can certainly be debated with both sides being represented here among the posters. I’d prefer not to because IMO this blog and forum has more important goals.

    It seems to me that the other issue is one of morality. Clearly the pill has functions you would agree with such as regulating out of whack hormones and reducing the severe pain that some women experience with their periods. To that I would add the value of family planning so that a couple is emotionally, physically, and financially ready for a child. Do you agree?

    The point that I am taking from your posts is that the pill is being used immorally if taken by women to avoid pregnancy when they are not married. Further, you believe that the very existence of contraception encourages immorality because the consequence of an unwanted pregnancy can be avoided. And am I right then that you believe that this negative consequence outweighs the positive ones above and therefore you wish that the pill has never been developed?

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  44. JA, I don’t know what this brainerd guy has said in other posts, but his rhetoric here makes me think he is Kevin Swanson in disguise.

    DB2, my daughter and I both have fertility issues, ones that cause a lot of pain during our monthly cycles. (Like the PCOS that Pam mentioned.) Without birth control, I wouldn’t have had my cycles straightened out enough so I could have children in the first place. And she would still be on the up and down rollercoaster of dysmenorrhea. (Look that up.) The bc pill has legitimate uses outside its original purpose and I’m thankful for it.

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  45. Frank Schaeffers latest post – One look at American Christians and I Figure Jesus Must Have Hated Women – Right?

    http://tinyurl.com/ltcr6gt

    I remain stunned by the ignorance (lack of knowledge) of men like David., who pipe up in posts such as this. It’s as if they crawled out of a cave. He seems to have no understanding of anatomy, no willingness to learn basics of body systems. It is all about him and what he feels and thinks. That his ignorance is not only stunning, as if women are only their fertility and sexuality. It’s the Madonna/whore mentality. To be proud of such blindness, to expect others to accept his delusion borders on shocking. David comes across as very troubled, and sadly I see little hope he is able to listen to others (women) or educate himself. Women are the sum of their dirty lady parts, they can’t be trusted with.

    “An observer from another planet, who looked strictly at the numbers of women earning minimum wage with no access to good child care and health care, would conclude that America is a country that hates women, hates children and is working to destroy families.”

    As an observer from another country, I’m inclined to agree.

    Like

  46. Some charismatic authors I recall having read define witchcraft as any practice by which a person attempts to impose their will. According to this definition, any attempt to impose one’s views, agenda or will by by the use of fear, guilt or shame is a form of witchcraft. Now, I’m not accusing anybody of being a witch, but I do suggest that those who would associate others’ birth control practices with witchcraft consider whether it is appropriate to themselves be using the tools of witchcraft.

    Please note that I use the word “suggest” in the previous sentence. I am not demanding, nor am assigning blame or shame. That would be witchcraft.

    Like

  47. I read the following question today and it made me think of the discussion here:

    This quote is the opening paragraph:

    ” Did you know that January is National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention month? According to the White House, this is a time to reflect on modern-day slavery and “renew our commitment to ending this scourge in all its forms.” A project of the United Methodist Church, on the other hand, is committing to emphasize “reproductive services” for victims without regard for their emotional, physical and spiritual health.”

    And the following is a question that the author hoped to, but did not get addressed.

    Do you include oral contraception, abortifacients, or abortion within “reproductive health services”? If so, are you concerned about the harmful physical, emotional and spiritual effects these are all known to have on women and girls?

    Here’s the entire article:
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/how-churches-are-harming-human-trafficking-victims-112802/cpf

    Like

  48. The fact is that by covering birth control pillls, the insurer saves money, as one NORMAL, UNCOMPLICATED pregnancy and delivery would cost more than ten years of BCPs, not to speak of the medical care of the child in our overpopulated world.

    Like

  49. JA, the fact is that many human trafficking victims have diseases and/or injuries as a result of the sexual abuse they have suffered and need treatment. Those treatments are generally included under the term ‘reproductive health services’. And some will be found to be in the early stages of pregnancy, and may choose to abort or carry the rapist’s child to term, and in either case, will need ‘reproductive health services’? While many generally oppose abortion, fewer insist on imposing on a rape victim the requirement that she carry that pregnancy to term.

    Like

  50. An Attorney makes a good point at 6:30 AM. I have wondered if such considerations might not be behind the insistence on making us all pay for everybody’s birth control. Fewer babies, less drain on the welfare state’s treasury. Of course, fewer babies also means fewer future workers to pay for the welfare state, but that goes way beyond the simplistic considerations on which public policy is currently formulated.

    As objectionable as it is that people like Kevin Swanson are trying to use guilt and same to impose their views, I am increasingly fearful at the prospect of increasing governmental intrusion into decisions relating to conception. If free birth control does not sufficiently curb increasing demands on the welfare state, what comes next? Attempts to regulate family size? The very thought seems preposterous, yet I recall that, as long ago as about 20 years ago, I was talking to a social worker who bemoaned that fact that, while we must be licensed to drive a car, anybody and everybody can have however many babies they want. Scary.

    We can debate when life begins (I’m personally quite opposed to abortion), but neither Kevin Swanson, nor any of his ilk, nor any governmental official have any business attempting to impose their wills with regard to how many children a woman should or should not conceive. These people simply do not own any woman’s womb (well, except their own, if they happen to be female).

    Like

  51. Devil pill? Seriously David?

    I am having a hard time following you. Do you think the pill is societally evil or you just having a problem being forced to pay for it? I have sympathy for the later not because I have any problem with the pill at all. But I have a HUGE problem with collectivism especially since the people who passed this mandated law exempted THEMSELVES and added the IRS in just for dictatorial grins. So, it must be a really great law since they are exempted. (sarcasm alert)

    I am not overly thrilled with paying for viagra for some perverts out there but there we are. Collectivism at it’s best. We are being bubble wrapped by all sides. Left and right.

    A few years back there was an interesting debate on the pill on some SBC pastors blog. I was amused when someone posted that the insurance group the SBC pastors were under did not cover the birth control pill but it did cover viagra. Sounds about right. (sigh)

    Like

  52. There was a previous post here that in comments demolished the oral contraceptives are abortifacients. They aren’t, it’s been investigated thoroughly, and in fact given that women are more likely to miscarry a conceived fetus when not on oral contraceptives because they don’t pregnant in the first place. Therefore, more unborn lives are saved by using oral contraceptives than by not using them.

    More broadly, I become very weary with the defensiveness of those who say, no really, I just use OCs for medical reasons and not for that sketchy contraception!
    When did a couple’s decision to take responsibility for their reproductive choices turn the woman (and only the woman, it’s always only the woman) into a pill popping s**t? Newflash. it takes two and assuming the OCs are being taken solely for contraception, the man gets at least as much out of the use as the woman.
    She bears the risk of side effects and contraindications whilst the couple gains greater spontaneity in intimacy.

    Like

  53. Whoa… I thought Swanson’s fresh batch of kook spew would be hard to take. (I only had the stomach for the first six minutes.) But David has taken it to a whole new level. I think he might give the Bayly Brothers a few lessons on How To Be A Paranoid Wingnut.

    What is happening to Christian men over there? I’m doubly ashamed listening to this whack-a-doodle stuff from them — ashamed to have the same religion and gender as they do.

    Guys like Swanson, the Bayly’s and now (unfortunately) David here remind me of this guy from a well-known TV series. (The third video from the top, captioned “It’s in Revelations, people!!”)

    http://kentbrockmangreatesthits.tumblr.com/

    Like

  54. She bears the risk of side effects and contraindications whilst the couple gains greater spontaneity in intimacy.

    Ruth – it almost sounds as if you are promoting an “egalitarian pleasure party.”

    Like

  55. davidbrainerd2: “The whole country is going to go broke because women are popping the pill like candy but refuse to pay for it themselves. And that’s all I have to say. I’m done.” I am 99% sure these comments are trolling.
    “Popping the pill like candy”, implying whenever they feel like it and not for either medical reasons or preventing pregnancy?
    “Refuse to pay” as if no women pay more than enough taxes to cover it?
    “the country will go broke” as if birth control pills are not way cheaper for the country than babies?

    Like

  56. “Ruth – it almost sounds as if you are promoting an “egalitarian pleasure party.”

    BWAHAHA! Good one, JA.

    My experience with the pill was the opposite of Bridget’s.I have a real sensitivity to most meds. My take on pharmacueticals today is to take them to prevent death. Or to prevent murder. :o)

    Like

  57. “neither Kevin Swanson, nor any of his ilk, nor any governmental official have any business attempting to impose their wills with regard to how many children a woman should or should not conceive.” Gary W

    Right. And that is exactly what Kevin Swanson is trying to do with his womb tomb theory… He is pushing his agendas (reconstructionist?, Christian army?).

    But I don’t think Kevin Swanson himself has thought his “womb-tomb” plan out. Here’s why.

    Many Christian couples do plan & do practice some type of birth control. What might they do if they believed his womb tomb theory was true?

    Can you imagine what Kevin Swanson’s reaction to this headline would be if it were true? Would it achieve his agendas?

    “Kevin Swanson’s womb tomb theory causes marked increase in vasectomies among married Christian men.”

    Like

  58. I suppose I am, JA. I am sorry to read women who feel the need to justify their healthcare choices, especially when it’s a decision a couple makes together. (Yes, I recognize I’m making a set of best case assumptions in a het married couple, but given that others repeatedly use the worst case ones, I figure fair is fair). Being ready emotionally, financially, and intellectually for the responsibility of a child used to be a GOOD THING that increased family health and income.
    This does assume that my hypothetical het married couple has no problems with the morality of some form of contraception. I recognize that some do, but even the strictest of Catholics don’t have a problem with NFP.

    To that end, the rampant obsessive sexualization I’ve read on so many evangelical/fundamentalist blogs utterly mystifies me. Pastors tweet about their smoking hot wives, couples are told that the reward for purity is awesome sex on their wedding night, and wives are instructed that if they are not always available sexually for their husbands, it’s their fault when he strays. Churches offer classes to women in how to be more seductive/alluring/available to their husbands. Given the sheer importance these communities place on sex in marriage, I then suffer a real disconnect trying to understand why the woman is a pill popping s**t for doing what these communities tell her to do. Men are not only reaping the advantage of her use of reliable contraceptive that is convenient for them (versus say condoms), they are denying the option of abstinence.

    Like

  59. “Kevin Swanson’s womb tomb theory causes marked increase in vasectomies among married Christian men.”

    All of whom would apparently receive chocolates & flowers from the nurses (Lydia, yesterday, 3:37 PM). What’s that all about? But A Mom is exactly right. The womb-as-tomb issue would lose its blaming-and-shaming, agenda-promoting, usefulness. These Swanson types would have to move on to other arguments, at least one of which occurs to me–but I’m not going to give anybody any ideas.

    Like

  60. One more thing and then I’m really done. If on the one hand, it is preached that (some? all?) contraception is bad and evil, and on the other that the wife sins unless she always submits sexually to her husband-as-God stand-in, is the agenda of the communities preaching both principles exposed? Is this really a plot to assure that a wife provides non-proceative intimate activity and that her failure is sinful both because she did not submit and because her failure then caused her husband to stray? (This only applies if you assume that non-proceative sex is moral — if it isn’t then I suppose it is babies until the mother dies or is infertile in which case no sex either since it can’t be procreative anymore). Ouch. Going to find the brain bleach.

    Like

  61. “To that end, the rampant obsessive sexualization I’ve read on so many evangelical/fundamentalist blogs utterly mystifies me.”

    EXACTLY!!! For some reason they think they have discovered the hot jungle love of hetero marriage. It reminds me of all the celebs now having babies who think they are the first to “experience” motherhood and cannot shut up. The age of narcissism I suppose.

    Like

  62. “What’s that all about? ”

    It was about thanking a “man” for taking on the responsibility of birth control.

    Like

  63. We have several schools here for pregnant teens so they can complete their degree. Every student had access to free birth control pills, condoms, sponges, etc from the family resource center at their previous high school. There are nurses who are paid to go from school to school giving instructions over the course of a school year. All paid for by tax dollars

    Free pills are great if people actually take them. Those who are responsible will take them. Those who aren’t, won’t.

    Like

  64. Gary W: “I have wondered if such considerations might not be behind the insistence on making us all pay for everybody’s birth control. ”

    Uh, Medicaid has paid for birth control for low income women since it was created.* There used to be bi-partisan consensus on stuff like this. Could it be that the current panic about “making everyone pay for sl**s having sex” is a political tactic? Like when Wheaton College filed a lawsuit to prevent it from being “forced” to cover contraception, when in fact its insurance plan already covered contraceptive drugs?

    And despite the fact that the government has been subsidizing birth control for years, we still don’t seem to have arrived at the frightening population-control dystopia envisioned by you and davidbrainerd2. How does having coverage for birth control available *as a choice* constitute “governmental intrusion into decisions relating to conception” anyway?

    *Probably shouldn’t have pointed this out. I suppose once you’ve succeeded in barring women from getting birth control coverage on insurance plans that they pay for themselves, they’ll go after birth control benefits for Medicaid recipients. Because we must. punish. the. sl**s.

    Like

  65. “Could it be that the current panic about “making everyone pay for sl**s having sex” is a political tactic? ”

    Flora, That is a false dichotomy that both sides employ so we never really discuss issues in depth or with logic. As I mentioned above, the fundys might not want to subsidize birth control pills (even though they were with Medicaid as you mentioned) as I don’t want to subsidize Viagra that some perverts might be taking. So what? Where is freedom of thought? Even bores should have freedom of thought. Folks can always get free pills at Planned Parenthood. so not sure what the big deal is about the pills. Heck, my missionary cousin used to tell me about the USAid folks coming over the West Africa with tons of birth control pills for the citizens there.

    Collectivism turns us all into irresponsible children haggling over the crumbs the oligarchy (which is exempt from the laws they pass) has doled out. Those who absolutely cannot care for themselves must be taken care of–of that I totally affirm. The rest of us are voting blocks dependent on the oligarchy and in turn they micromanage us to death.

    We asked for it.

    Like

  66. lydiasellerofpurple –

    Yep. Every woman’s experience is different concerning BC. That’s why it should be the decision of each individual woman to decide if it’s right for them. As a side note, BCP’s had the opposite effect on me as I aged and my body was changing — adjustments were made, this time by hubby 😉

    Like

  67. “Yep. Every woman’s experience is different concerning BC. That’s why it should be the decision of each individual woman to decide if it’s right for them”

    Absolutely. That is the whole thing with drugs. We are all different. And doctors crack me up. She kept telling me there had to be one that did not turn me into a blathering idiot. But there wasn’t. But then, I have major sensitivity to most meds which has turned me into somewhat of a tree hugger when it comes to natural remedies. I am real into that. The upside is I could not be a druggie. :o) The downside could be serious some day. :o(

    “As a side note, BCP’s had the opposite effect on me as I aged and my body was changing — adjustments were made, this time by hubby 😉 ”

    Bravo!

    Like

  68. Flora Poste,

    Wheaton College is opposing the mandate to cover abortifacients, not contraception in general. I also reject your mischaracterization of my position, as stated at 7:00 AM.

    Like

  69. Gary W:

    Do you understand how emergency contraception works?

    Are you against coverage of ANY medication that has miscarriage as a possible side effect?

    Like

  70. JA, I LOVE IT!!! Hopefully just the threat is enough! Now, if you really want to make it scary we could put my reprobate dog in there to share the space with those banished. We refer to him as our white furry Cretin or on worse days, the Philistine.

    Like

  71. Lydia – I’d love to see a picture of your dog. Do you have mean/vicious-looking picture? haha Maybe a little threat with a picture of your dog in combination of the dog house will ward off commenters who cross the line.

    whoa – that picture is big! LOL

    Like

  72. “How does having coverage for birth control available *as a choice* constitute “governmental intrusion into decisions relating to conception” anyway?”

    The whole point is it is not really a choice because of the way healthcare is being structured by our government. An organization that used to contract for health insurance with a private insurer now HAS to provide birth control (and Viagra) as part of it’s plan because it is now mandated by the government. That means a group of Nuns, too. :o) THEY have no choice. The health insurance provider has no choice. So you are wanting choice for the end user but not for the organization or the health insurance provider.

    And I think providing it is fine. I just despise government mandates. It is funny people talk “choice” when discussing a government mandate. I just don’t get that.

    It is really no different than forcing young UNMARRIED men to have maternity coverage which increased their premium. My state did that back in the 80’s when HMO’s became “the answer”. Again, government mandate. So their insurance went up because they could no longer structure their own coverage. In effect, it was a way to pay for others maternity coverage since the HMO was negotiating payments for us.

    That is the real issue for me. The mandates. There is NO choice with government mandates.

    Like

  73. JA, My dog is a sheep in wolf clothing. He looks like a sweet little fuzzy creature but looks are deceiving. He would lure them into the dog house with his sweet face and steal them blind. He has a schnauzer head/ body with stark white bichon curly hair. A cross breed. He was a rescue dog and now I know why. :o)

    Like

  74. @ davidbrainerd2 wrote,

    I think the pill has major psychological affects which are to blame for most of our problems in the modern world, quite frankly. And the fact is, no store is carding to see if you’re married before giving it out. Its leading to unmarried people having more and more sex because they think the pill will prevent pregnancy.

    All false. FALSE.

    I took birth control pills for a few years due to reasons having NOTHING to do with sex or baby- making, I am now in my 40s and I am still a virgin.

    Furtherrmore, I was engaged to my ex sweetie pie while on the pill, but it did not cause me and him to have sex.

    Did you not even bother to read the post I wrote about this,about two posts above yours? My earlier post about it

    Like I said before, views like yours actually cause more premarital sex because you assume single people (whether on the pill or not) will have sex and cannot control their sexual desires.

    Like

  75. davidbrainnerd said,

    I question the medical appropriateness of using the pill for other things. For instance, they say it can have some affect in preventing ovarian cancer after being taken for 12 years. Yet studies always indicate it heightens the risk of breast cancer.

    That is not why I took the birth control pill years ago. I did NOT take birth control pills to “prevent cancer.”

    Taking BCPs did not cause me to have “mental disorders,” or whatever you are blathering on about.

    I had clinical depression and anxiety attacks in childhood, long before going on the pill, but both conditions are genetic, they run in my family, and had nothing do with the pill.

    You said, “I question the medical appropriateness of using the pill for other things.”

    Well, my doctor did not and prescribed them for me. Goodness but you are extremely ignorant on these topics, and it’s even more odd coming from a guy using a screen name like “brain nerd.”

    I am a registered Republican, a social conservative, and never vote Democrat, btw, so it’s another falsehood that only Democrats support birth control pills.

    David brain nerd wrote “In any case, older women taking it for other reasons is totally different. ”

    I took them in my late 20s / early 30s.

    Like

  76. davidbrainnerd wrote,

    So many of those issues are dealt with by politicians, women politicians, who are on the pill, and thereby, insane. Of course the men politicians are also on prozac. That doesn’t help either.

    That is very offensive. Stunningly so. To accuse people who use doctor-prescribed medications for health issues as being “insane.”

    During my years on birth control pills I was never “insane.”

    Like

  77. davidbrainerd2 wrote,

    If women weren’t trying to force us to pay for it with Obamacare, we probably would stay out of it.

    When I took birth control pills, I paid for them myself out of my own pocket, so I have no idea what you’re going on about.

    As I said above, I am a republican. I do not care for Obamacare, but the other arguments you are raising against BCPs have nothing to do with the American tax payer covering their costs. You’re bringing up all sorts of weird arguments that have nothing to do with ACA (Obamacare).

    DavidBrainDeadNerd said,

    The whole country is going to go broke because women are popping the pill like candy but refuse to pay for it themselves.

    Nope, I paid for it myself. Uncle Sam did not pay for it for me.

    It’s my understanding that men get covered for Viagara…. if that is so, why do they get coverage for that – some of them have affairs on their wives, some of them using Viagara might be divorced and sleeping with women all over the place.

    Like

  78. Lydia,
    Coverage for the pills has to be provided, but whether a woman takes them or not is up to her, in consultation with her physician. No one is forced to take the pills. No own is required to have them in their possession. Only, if the doctor prescribes and the woman wants to take them, then there is no cost to the patient. BTW, the insurance company actually saves money if they are taken and prevent a pregnancy, or more likely, delay it for some period until the woman decides she wants to conceive, or at least open the door to conception.

    Like

  79. “Coverage for the pills has to be provided,…”

    Why? Why does it HAVE to be provided? Because it is government mandated.

    I know I am not making my point well. You make good points about the end user having choice but ignore there is NO choice in providing it. Why do folks have a problem with THAT sort of “choice”? I despise the “mandate”. Not the pill. Not the choice in TAKING the pill. Perhaps you think the mandate is good. We simply disagree.

    Why do people think the government knows best?

    Like

  80. DavidBrainNerd said

    Once the government is involved with their subsidies, they begin to have leverage to force you onto birth control, or whatever else. That’s the goal. And the process towards it would never have gotten off the ground if it weren’t for an army of birth-control-pill zombies who care about nothing but their next pill to pop. That’s the problem. The pill is a tool to control women, to make them vote for whatever crap the Democrats want. Its a mind-control pill.

    I’m a Republican who never votes Democrat. BCPs are not a lure for me. Maybe for some women who lean liberal in their politics, but by no means all.

    I also don’t see how the US GOVT can “force” women into taking birth control pills.

    If a woman does not want or need birth control pills, why would the govt “force” her to take them?

    Like

  81. Kathi said to BrainNerdDavid

    Yes, studies have shown that the pill can alter a woman’s mood. However, that doesn’t mean that all forms of the pill will alter a woman’s mood. Do you consider altering a woman’s mood a “psychological affect?” Guess what, though? There are many things that can alter a woman’s mood – not just the pill. Menopause also alters a woman’s mood. That’s not something that can be avoid though, can it?

    I don’t know if you missed it, but in another post, he said that taking BCPs or Prozac can cause insanity. Yes, he used the word “insane.”

    Like

  82. I get what you’re saying about the mandate, Lydia, but if my employer can micromanage my insurance coverage where does it stop? Should employers who are Jehovah’s Witnesses be exempt from covering blood transfusions? I could go on, but I’m afraid I’ll end up in the SSB doghouse if I derail this any further into a discussion on health care policy. So I’ll let that be my last word on that.

    I guess my main concern is how much ideas like Swanson’s (if less colorfully expressed) have entered the mainstream. Case in point, Gary W seems to think emergency contraception = medical abortion.

    Like

  83. This whole conversation with DavidBrainNerd reminds me of some site by a preacher who had a page or two where he was even against Christian women seeing gynecologists, even for a regular health check -and not to get birth control- he felt it was wrong and women shouldn’t do it.

    I may have linked to that at TWW many months ago. I wish I could remember where I saw that. After a bit of hunting: I did find a link.

    I can’t remember if this is the same exact page/site I saw before, but this is similar:
    What’s Wrong with Male Gynecologists?
    (by a fundamentalist Baptist preacher, Pastor Steven Anderson)

    Highlights on that page include:

    1. Is nudity before the opposite gender a sin?
    2. Are male obstetricians or gynecologists condoned in the Bible?
    3. Are male gynecologists professionals or perverts?

    You can just guess already where he falls on those questions.

    Like

  84. DavidBrainNerd said,

    But now that an army of addicts has helped the enemy of the people ram it down everyone’s throats

    I was unaware that birth control pills are addictive.

    Are you fine with condoms? Is it okay for men to use those? Are those addictive, and do they cause insanity? And is it OK for the US GOVT to pay for those?

    I think you are over stating your case.

    For pete’s sake, I am a Republican (as I said twice already), I am Pro Life, and I was a Christian for many years (don’t know if I am still one, but I remain sympathetic to their beliefs), and you are losing ME in this discussion.

    I could just imagine how this stuff from DavidBrainNerd would come across to a hardened, militant, feminist atheist, liberal Democrat LOL. 😆

    DavidBrainNerd said,

    Besides that, before women didn’t speak about it like now. You wouldn’t have caught a woman putting her birth control pill holder thing on top of a Bible(!) and taking a picture of it and posting it on the internet like at the first site that Ruth linked.

    First of all, it appears to be a stock photo. Some photographer was hired by a company to shoot that.

    Secondly, if I am not mistaken, the site to which you refer is Salon, which is left wing and never sympathetic to right wingers or Christianity, so I would not expect them to be uber sensitive to how a Bible is photographed.

    Some art director made the choice to photograph BCPs on top of that Bible, and who knows what his/her religious views are?

    Also, from an artistic stand point, it’s not necessarily disrespectful to photo BCPs atop a Bible, if the image is only meant to convey a debate about how Christians feel about BCPs. The photo is not a statement on the Bible itself, but how Christians view birth control.

    DaveNerdBrain said,

    Such horrid abomination and blasphemy, and disrespect for God’s word never occurred among so-called Christians on this public scale before.

    Not that I am cool with people who spit on Bibles and stuff, but….

    If you’re not careful, you’re going to position the Bible to a place where some Muslims go with the Koran, to the point they riot and have fits if an “infidel” touches one without wearing gloves, break out into riots if they hear rumors of Korans being flushed down toilets at GITMO, and stuff like that.

    U.S. Long Had Memo on Handling of Koran

    Like

  85. Sorry, I accidentally put comments intended for ths post on the wrong thread (my browser flickered out then came back on later, and it was a confusing mess).

    If Julie Anne would like to delete those posts that are copies and move the others to this thread, that would be okay with me.

    Here is what I said before:
    —————————–
    David Brain Nerd said,

    But now, the pill has become a god to many women.

    Actually, I think sex has become a God to a lot of people, both male and female Christian and Non Christian

    Sex has become a God to our culture to the point Christians (even you) now buy into secular presuppositions about sex, such as, nobody can be a virgin as long as I have (over the age of 40).

    It is assumed – by many Christians, not just Non Christians – that nobody can go without sex past their early or mid 20s, and that having pre martial sex by 25 – 30 is inevitable if one has not married by then. The Bible does not teach that at all..

    But Christians support that view, which is why most now promote early marriage and educating teens about using birth control.

    Even ‘True Love Waits’ (Christian program for sexual abstinence) has re-hauled their program this year to dump the virginity message: Christians have thrown in the towel on chastity and virginity being possible and Christians perceive teaching these ideas as being a waste of time.

    Observe how preachers such as Mark Driscoll, and every other preacher, thinks a man cannot go without sex for more than a day, and that is why they lecture wives to give the husbands sex every two minutes.

    The Bible teaches
    1. people (yes, even married people) can live without sex (husbands don’t need sex every week) and
    2. people possess sexual self control

    I read a book by Christians that discussed the history of people’s view about sex (among other topics), and up until Freud (19th century psychiatrist) and later, Americans used to believe people could be sexually abstinent for long periods of time…

    With Freud, though, came weird views about sex, eg, about not having sex by one’s early 20s supposedly stunts a person’s maturity or health, or supposedly creates neuroticism in women and other, negative issues in men who don’t have sex by age X. His thinking about sex (and he was not basing his views on the Bible) permeated American attitudes about sex, and Christian views about sex, in the 20th cent and beyond.

    That book, combined with my own observations of Christian culture, confirms that Christians have allowed secular culture to color their views and assumptions about sex.

    Like

  86. Ruth said,

    More broadly, I become very weary with the defensiveness of those who say, no really, I just use OCs for medical reasons and not for that sketchy contraception!

    Why is that?

    I don’t like being accused of having pre marital sex, and that is what some of these people do. They assume if you’ve used the pill it was because you were having pre marital sex.

    Actually, I get tired of people assuming that any and all singles are fornicating, regardless of the pill aspect of it. Not all unmarried people are having sex. Some of us were waiting for marriage to have sex.

    I did only use BCPs for health reasons and not for sex – I’m over 40 and still a virgin.

    Like

  87. re: Marsha’s post. Marsha said

    The point that I am taking from your posts is that the pill is being used immorally if taken by women to avoid pregnancy when they are not married.

    Even though I am a virgin who has never had sex, I took the BCP for health reasons in my late 20s/early 30s.I was engaged to a man while I was on the pill. He and I never had sex not even when I was on the pill.

    I made that clear in a post or two above, and that I even paid for the pills myself (not the tax payer) and DavidBrainNerd STILL objected to women using the pill. (Unless he has since recanted that view in some post above and I missed it.)

    Even after I explained to him my situation, he went on and on strange tangents about how the pill can make people “insane” and causes them to have psychological problems or whatever.

    He has some kind of weird, looney hostility against birth control pills.

    Some women and men use other forms of birth control shots in the arm (Depo-Provera) and others used IUDs or make their sweetie use a condom. I assume he’s fine with IUD, Depo-Provera, vasectomies, etc. I don’t know what the weird hang up is with him and BCPs.

    Like

  88. The whole point is it is not really a choice because of the way healthcare is being structured by our government. An organization that used to contract for health insurance with a private insurer now HAS to provide birth control (and Viagra) as part of it’s plan because it is now mandated by the government. That means a group of Nuns, too. :o) THEY have no choice. The health insurance provider has no choice. So you are wanting choice for the end user but not for the organization or the health insurance provider.

    Yes!
    A friend of mine who is a Catholic priest says that, in his area of the country, they are being pushed to cover birth control pills for the PRIESTS. [snark alert]Because, you know, so many celibate men get pregnant every year[end alert].

    Like

  89. Ruth asked:

    or is infertile in which case no sex either since it can’t be procreative anymore

    I’ve wondered about that, too. I’ve seen some Christians argue that sex is for baby making and only baby making.

    I have asked Christians what about Christian married couples who are infertile and in their 20s, 30s, or older, are they supposed to just stop having sex because they can’t have kids?

    Then you have wives who hit menopause… they can’t have babies anymore but some may still have a sex drive and want to have sex, are they supposed to just not have sex?

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  90. Ruth said,

    To that end, the rampant obsessive sexualization I’ve read on so many evangelical/fundamentalist blogs utterly mystifies me.
    …, they are denying the option of abstinence.

    That is my view also.

    I was taught as a teen girl by Christian culture that one should be a virgin until marriage. I also felt that way because I perceived that was what the Bible taught.

    So fine, I abstained am and still a virgin at age 40+, but the 99% of the rest of the Christian community does not support me, or those like me.

    They assume any and all Christians past age 20 or 25 have had sex or currently are. So, if you are celibate past 25 or 30, you get no support or encouragement at all.

    I don’t know why Christians bother preaching about the virtues of virginity and celibacy to you when you are 15 and they pretend to respect both, but when you find yourself still single and celibate at 40, you are either ignored or treated like a failure or weirdo. Christians don’t truly believe in virginity or celibacy.

    (These days, on many Christian blogs, both celibacy and virginity are also under withering criticism from 30 something Christians who say that purity lectures they heard while in Sunday School made them feel ashamed when they were 15 or 18 years old.
    And now, older male, conservative Christians are also jumping on that band wagon and saying virginity is bad in their blogs.)

    Like

  91. Thanks, Daisy!

    David – I absolutely will not approve your last insulting comment. Please refer back to the SSB doghouse picture. I’m sure you can’t miss it.

    yours truly,
    ja

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  92. “get what you’re saying about the mandate, Lydia, but if my employer can micromanage my insurance coverage where does it stop? Should employers who are Jehovah’s Witnesses be exempt from covering blood transfusions?”

    Employers have always micromanaged insurance coverage. At least you had the choice of finding a new employer with better coverage if you wanted to bad enough. But now, government will micromanage it for you And you won’t have a choice. In fact, the IRS is involved in your lack of choice now.

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  93. I made that clear in a post or two above, and that I even paid for the pills myself (not the tax payer) and DavidBrainNerd STILL objected to women using the pill. (Unless he has since recanted that view in some post above and I missed it.)

    Well, you did miss the comment that I did not approve, but I will confirm to you that he certainly has not recanted that view, nor the rhetoric, which is why you will be noticing his absence, not his presence. 🙂

    Like

  94. I’ve very curious if the Fertility Awareness Method would also be considered witchcraft. I’m not using any pharmaceuticals (doesn’t that mean witchcraft, if I recall), since hormonal forms of BC give me horrible migraines. Nobody is paying for my charts for FAM, so I can’t possibly be used as a political tool. Guess the husband needs to go collect all the stones from our yard…. (completely said in snarky voice)

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  95. When Davidbrain made the connection with the “shall not suffer a witch to live” and birthcontrol, I thought, “what next? the link between the Greek word pharmaceutical?” Well, that’s just the next comment he made! By the way, the only other place I have heard this pharmaceutical/witchcraft connection was in a Hebrew Roots forum.

    Like

  96. As a former Christian conservative now turned Christian liberal I am elated that men like David speak out in support of the conservative side of politics. It will ensure that many, like me, continue to cast votes for candidates who are left of center. Keep speaking up loud and proud David, and those who oppose his viewpoints take note and think long and hard before you cast your vote. Is the America that David advocates for really the America you want to live in?

    Like

  97. Good article, Julie Anne. If those who want to prohibit birth control and morning after pills because of possible loss of a fertilized egg, even though current science says such a risk is slight to non-existent, they should really seek to prohibit a whole long list of medications. They should really zero in on prohibiting women of childbearing age from taking ibuprofen, or drinking coffee. Much stronger link to miscarriage there!

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  98. I am not against the birth control. When someone has a position you have to ask “Who benefits?” And usually that is a question about money. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest detractors to birth control pills. Why? You need more Catholics, more money. I don’t really think that many people are against birth control pills anymore. A better question is the morning after pill, what do you guys think about that?

    Like

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