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The Doug Phillips Vision Forum scandal has left homeschooling families reeling and questioning: what now, where do we go from here? What about Patriarchy, Full-Quiver, Courtship, Parenting? A Concerned Dad asks some great questions.
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Over the weekend, I got an excellent e-mail from A Concerned Dad who probably echoes the thoughts of many homeschool parents as we try to make sense of the Doug Phillips scandal. He gave me permission to share it here.
Many of us were sold a bill of goods under his teachings and now the rug has been pulled out from beneath us. What now?
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Julie Anne-
Thanks so much for sharing your story through your blog. I’ve been doing a ton of thinking the past month or so since the whole Doug Phillips thing blew up. It has been a huge wake-up call for me and I’m reading and listening to many viewpoints across the internet. I’m going through the stages of grief in a way as some of our dreams are dying. Underneath it all, I do have this feeling of finally being set free from some lies and fear we have been living with for many years.
I think our family is very similar to yours, but you are several years ahead of us on this journey. We also touched on the fringes of the movement, have had much of the garbage infiltrate our lives and now we are at a point where I’m trying to figure out what to do.
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We have 8 kids under the age of 16, mostly girls. My wife does an admirable job with the home education but at this point we are at the breaking point.
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The past year we have finally released the older two children to a public charter school and we are on the verge of doing the same with the younger ones. For a while, we were heading down the familiar path–daughters preparing for motherhood, courtship, not going to college, etc…but I’ve completely soured on all of that. Our girls are doing sports through the local schools, preparing for college and other “baby steps” towards more normal life.
I just listed to the very long podcast you were a part of on Godtalk and I was sick to my stomach thinking about the damage we may have done and could do. My wife is still somewhat on board with the whole quiver-full thing, Above Rubies, and the other typical parties.
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This type of thinking has seriously permeated a large portion of the home schooling sub-culture to the point the subtle pressure is felt down in the trenches in local groups and cliques.
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She still seems to be pretty enslaved to thought that she can “do it all” and somehow shelter our kids from the evil out there. It’s a false view of spirituality I guess–the evil is out there, not in us. I feel like it we are miserable here with no freedom or joy anymore.
My questions to you:
Would you still home-school knowing what you know now?
What would you do differently?
Do you recommend any form of discipline/training? I’ve been drawn to love and logic and have read/listened to some of those materials. Any other advice for those of us our here who are someone in between those two camps?
I see good and bad in both sides and think we can blend the two to some degree. It may be a child-by-child decision to adapt to their needs and maturity, but I’m also interested in how people manage these complexities.
Thanks so much!
A Concerned Dad
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I’d like to open this up for all of us to respond. I certainly don’t have all of the answers. How would you respond to A Concerned Dad?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Maria,
I feel really bad for you having so much guilt already for a job you haven’t even started yet! Take it easy on yourself, you seem like a great person, you are doing the best you know how to do for you and your family. There is so much weird energy from woman (both from working moms to stay at home moms and also from stay at home moms to working outside the home women). I think it comes from insecurity. Everyone wants to make sure they are doing the right thing. Should I be spending more time with my kids? Should I be helping financially? Let me just tell you that its a tough world out there. Your husband is probably doing the best he can as well, thats not easy either. Its a blessing that you found a job with the unemployment at a high level. Go out there, do the best you can, work hard, be proud, and when you get home love on your family the best you can. Thats all we can do in life. We only get one ride around this giant carousel called life, do the best you can, love others like you want to be loved, hang on, and enjoy the ride!
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Jenny-
Thank you so much. I so do want to just trust. I think I also have, under it all, an intense desire to find the ‘formula’ so I worry that I will no longer have time to read, etc… I think I feel like a mess a lot and am looking for the formula to un-do myself at a soul level. Maybe the formula is to live in each moment and forget the rest. To find grace, to remember grace and to fall into the arms of Jesus open invitation to dance 🙂 Let all else go and laugh more. I think this is going on my mirror. I so easily forget.
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Gary Fore here.
A few comments that will probably not be appreciated, but true.
Reba – I went to your site and started to respond in detail and I realized that between what you posted here and the volume there, you would never be convinced about the distinct callings of male and female. You have closed your mind to the authority of Scripture. So there is not point in trying to convince you. The Word of God IS our guide. It is the written word that leads us to Christ who is the living word. We do not get new revelations, etc or outside info from the Spirit apart from the written word. All the salvific and sanctifying details for us sinners about Christ is revealed not in nature, but in the Scripture. Thus, the written word is our guide with the power of the Holy Spirit guiding us into that truth, but it is always connected to the Scriptures. This is true Christianity. Anything else is false.
As to scripture to prove the roles. Genesis 1-2, many other OT sections make the roles clear, Titus 2, Peter, other writings from Paul, etc. But Titus 2 is very clear that the woman’s place of great and noble service is in the home. The very spirit of the text does not allow the woman to be gone for days on end, week by week, month by month on an “outside” job. Even Proverbs 31 makes it clear that she is working in her orbits in and out of the home, but the focus of her life and days are clearly for her home, her children and her husband. A Keeper at Home does not mean she can never leave, never go sell/trade, etc. It means that she spends the bulk of her days in and at her home, periodically in and out, but all with a homeward focus. You have been liberated to your view by something or someone outside of the Scriptures, thus your authority is found outside the scriptures, so no amount of quoting texts would help because you will justify your spirit of denial that they mean plainly what they say.
As to roles in general – the pattern is clear from Genesis to Revelation. Women are not second class chattle, but are helpmeets who were created by God, most wonderfully, to serve alongside their husbands in the work of life, the family and all that impacts that family. But Paul makes it clear that the woman is not head over the man, but the man over the woman. Now you will not accept this, so your argument is with God’s Word. Not me. You know down inside that I am telling you the truth –you already know. You are just not being honest with yourself or God, or those in the blogs.
There are abusive men, bad husbands for sure, but what is new. This is as old as mankind. And there are equally wicked women – many who have poisoned the minds of many children and promoted abuse that is far more vile than many men. Doug Phillips and his ilk are not representative of true Christian husbands and fathers. We are sinful and imperfect, but we love our wife, love our children and will die for them. We want to have long maturing marriages – even maybe 70 years…marriages with our “best friend”. My wife is my best friend. That is total truth.
As to the other comments like…
Prov 31 lady did clearly do various merchant activity for her family, but she was not what many women are trying to justify. They are gone 8++ hours a day, every day from their homes and namely to a “career”. The Prov. 31 woman was orbiting around her home, with that as her focus, throughout the day. This is not so of the modern “career” woman. Again, Titus 2 and all the other passages make this idea of “Keeper at Home” clear. The confusion is in those who do not like the Lord’s design and think they have a better way. This is of course, most foolish. So did Satan, so did Eve, so did Adam and look where it has brought us.
Scripture is clear. But many try to dodge the truth to ease their conscience.
Being a true homemaker is the most difficult work in the world. My faithful wife of 29 years would attest to this truth. It is one that every man ought to totally encourage. We men have dearly failed in this front. But, our failure does not change the truth of the clear intent and spirit of Scripture.
Gary
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Julie Anne,
Sure the scenarios I described can occur in Christian schools, churches, youth groups, etc. and kids can get in trouble anywhere. We choose to avoid many of those situations- at least where our kids are unsupervised by one of us. Our kids have several opportunities to pursue interests, meet people, witness, travel, have fun, whatever. We increase their level of independence as they grow and show maturity. Maybe we’re seen as over-protective, I don’t know. That’s a decision every parent has to make for themselves and one that we’ve made carefully and prayerfully. We work hard to stay close to them and listen to their dreams/hopes/interests so that if changes need to made, more freedom granted, etc. we will do it. BTW, in my opinion, a youth group with supervision would be a great idea. Parental neglect is wrong whether one homeschools or public schools or whatever. I also went to a lousy youth group. The experiences I had in public school and church have made me determined to try to give the best I can to my kids. Not saying everyone has to do what I do or that it would be right for everyone.
And it’s also plain wrong to try to shame those who choose public school or Moms who work out of the home.
I completely agree with Maria about allowing our kids to be human and fall and then see their need for Christ through that experience. My kids have all kinds of opportunities to do that while homeschooling as well. I like to be there to guide them when they do stumble. At least for now. The time will come when they’re on their own and that’s as it should be.
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To Gary…Amen!
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Salli Mae-
And I totally agree that we don’t want to leave them to the wolves thinking public school is great and they need to fall anyway so, hey, good luck kids, see you when you’re 30. I am actually building a network of friendships with the kid’s moms that my kids have befriended. Some of them work in the school system. There is very much a culture of being involved and knowing as much as we can about their whereabouts and checking in with other parents when they say they’ll be at someone’s house, etc… It’s totally for me, a complete act of trust where that seems to be my only option. And when I see that, for me, it is God’s plan just as for you, homeschooling is. Wherever we are in our parenting, the important part is supporting our kids and being involved and however that looks in God’s plan, we should do our best. And, knowing that, allow the falling to happen:)
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Gary said: “Reba – I went to your site and started to respond in detail and I realized that between what you posted here and the volume there, you would never be convinced about the distinct callings of male and female. You have closed your mind to the authority of Scripture.”
I believe the authority of scripture. But you have not quoted even one verse.
You just asserted “Genesis 1-2, many other OT sections make the roles clear, Titus 2, Peter, other writings from Paul, etc… The pattern is clear from Genesis to revelation” but you never quoted a specific verse to back up one of your assertions.
Genesis 1 say both genders were made in God’s image to rule.(:27-28) I see no gender role in Genesis 2, but you can quote the verse that makes a gender role clear if there is one. Being a strength on the same level as the man (the meaning of helpmeet) does not give a gender role, but could mean they were made for the same task. I showed that the Titus 2 text does not say women’s lives should orbit round home/family, only that she should probably know how to do home/family related things. Yet you simply re-assert that Titus 2 prove your point, without giving any reason why your interpretation is right. Your simply ignore what is actually in the Bible – the command is to teach it, not to orbit round it.
You are claiming scripture is on your side. Even if you believe I don’t listen to the authority of scripture, if there was actually scripture on your side you could prove your point by making a numbered list with a scripture quote next to every number to back it up:
1) Where the Bible texts that make it clear that “The lady, if she marries, is to orbit around the home/family”?
2) Where in the bible is career success called worldly or wrong for girls?
3) Where in the Bible are men, not women, told to be providers? And what do you think of that Jesus guy, who had women providing for him out of their own pockets? (Luke 8:3) And what do you think of the women who did so, was it their role?
4) Where in the Bible do you get that single women “should not compete with men”? Where in the Bible do you see a gender role for single women?
5) Where does the Bible say sons should be leaders? (Should, not are. Texts that say men are leaders may only represent a factual observation about said society.
“But Paul makes it clear that the woman is not head over the man, but the man over the woman. Now you will not accept this, so your argument is with God’s Word. Not me.” – Gary
“Head of”, not “head over.” I accept that and even discuss what the idiomatic meanings of head (the literal meaning of the Greek word Paul used is the body part above the neck. In many languages beside English, the word for that body part does not denote leadership at all. Even English has words like cranium, crown, noggin or skull that also mean the same as the Greek word translated to head.) was in the Greek of the era, on my blog. Please do not misrepresent what I do and do not accept.
You, with your “the Bible make it clear” did not give a Bible text to prove even one point, instead you started with accusations. And by the way – you got my name wrong. Please, for the sake of your family, read your Bible with more care than that.
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Gary, even if you are convinced I would not listen, you could convince others on this thread of your rightness if you could list numbers 1 to 5, and give the clear text that conclusively show you are right about that, next to each. But if you fail to give a text for each assertion, how will they know, for example, the Bible calls women never to compete with men?
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“The Prov. 31 woman was orbiting around her home, with that as her focus, throughout the day.” – Gary
Where is your evidence for that?
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Maria,
Yes- I’m seeing that more and more-“the important part is supporting our kids and being involved and however that looks in God’s plan, we should do our best.” Amen. The relationship is KEY. The involvement and unconditional love. The kids knowing they will still be loved when they mess up. And yes-even the homeschooled kids mess up. Mine do. Partly because they’re taught by imperfect homeschool parents and partly because they’re sinners. (which they also inherited from me)
I always enjoy Todd Wilson (Familyman) at homeschool conventions. He pokes fun at us and makes us laugh at ourselves. And he emphasizes the relationships-not trying to be the perfect, poster homeschool family.
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Retha:
The very sad thing about this whole situation is that many of the women reading Gary’s words, by mere fact that he is a man, will not challenge him because the Patriarchal Schools of Doug Phillips, Scott Brown, Geoff Botkin, Kevin Swanson, etc, teach they must not do so.
Gary can use his bully Patriarch pulpit to spout whatever he wants (regardless if his words were true or not) and this culture teaches that women may not question it. The Bible never says that. The Bible says we are to be good Bereans.
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Gary Fore said:
I think Gary Fore and the whole of the Homeschool Movement subculture has been bound up by someone or something outside of the Scriptures.
If Scripture is clear, why are you not providing it?
Gary Fore: You have publicly said to Retha:
This was a condescending remark, yet Retha gave specific scriptures to prove her point and you have not. I look forward to your response to Retha with specific verses to back up your claims.
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‘Gary said: “Reba – I went to your site and started to respond in detail and I realized that between what you posted here and the volume there, you would never be convinced about the distinct callings of male and female. You have closed your mind to the authority of Scripture.”’ . . . Sez Mr. Open-minded himself.
If anyone has time to listen to the sermon posted here: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/09/after-the-doug-phillips-vision-forum-scandal-what-should-we-as-homeschoolers-parents-do-now/#comment-66444
it’s good. He calls people who try to project their own convictions onto other people a cult.
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I realize that. Gary said (single) women should not compete with men, and by merely asking where in the Bible he got that, I am competing with him in the world view arena.
Actually, I was into reading some patriarchy blogs at a time and thought I needed to change everything, (lucky for me, the CP movement is in the USA and I am in South Africa) but that was one of the things that got me to snap out of it, to see theirs cannot be the way: They told things I can see clear reasons to disagree with, and reacted as if I am a huge sinner for not accepting it as true.
By telling me I cannot read the Bible for myself but need male leadership they “took away my gun” (my weapon would have been called a sword in Bible times), and then started attacking me. (Ironically, at those blogs they were big on literal gun ownership rights too).
They sold me tears, and hated me when I cried. That is what caused me to cry out to God: “God, please teach me the truth! If I should rearrange my whole life and move back in with my father who don’t want me there, I will. But please, you can’t be telling me to stop asking questions and believe things because men tell them.” The answer to that prayer was that God provided me with egalitarian teachings by a missionary leader I respect, and then got me invited to egal blogs and gathering places. I did not move back in with my father. Instead, God helped me to let go of legalism I had even before my distant, but disturbing brush with “Christian” patriarchy. I still care about those caught up in, or escaping from it.
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Because this is SCRIPTURE(TM) as Party Line, Comrade.
With a “TRUTH HURTS, DOESN’T IT?” beatdown.
That’s SCRIPTURE(TM) as a weapon for the beatdown on Retha.
There’s a reason I feel like vomiting every time I hear the word SCRIPTURE.
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Ultimately, homeschooling is a choice. Not every family is able to make that choice.
You know – – here’s another thing that has always bothered me about some of this general thoughts about sending kids to public school = to the devil – the people who say these things don’t seem to be thinking beyond the US. I’m pretty sure that homeschooling is not a legal option in some countries.
There’s also a whole lot of judgment of women who work outside the home. That’s just not even remotely a possibility in many countries in the world. Why are Americans so special with all of these extra rules? ::::JA sarcasm:::::
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We are in our 14th year of homeschooling. Our eldest son and oldest daughter are in college. Our youngest is four and we have others in between, and Lord willing, we will have many more homeschooling years. As much as I believe homeschooling is a great option for our family, I do not believe it is the only option.
We began our homeschooling journey with the mantra that it is a a year by year decision that we would revisit each year to see if it was still the best option for our family. There was no fear involved in our decision to homeschool. There was no feeling of disdain towards public schooling. It wasn’t long or too many homeschooling conventions later though, that we were exposed to what others believe is the peril of public schools..
There is almost a formula of some homeschool convention speakers (and I have heard many of the big names live and in person over the years..) 1. Build up your audience. Make the homeschooling parents believe they are doing something great. Make them believe they are exceptional and set apart. Flatter them. Better yet, flatter their kids. 2. Instill fear in them of the dangers in..public schools, sports, youth groups, dating, immodesty,college, food, birth control, medical professionals, the government..3. Sell the vision. Sell the system or formula for godliness that will protect the children from going off into depravity. Pepper the lecture with “real life” examples of hsers who went the way of the world. 4. Sell your CD’s, books, and move on to the next city and the next state.
Where does this leave the homeschool mom in the trenches? The one who is trying to teach one child to read, one child to do long division, and the other to potty train, while trying to fix dinner and clean house? Overwhelmed. It is a bag of bricks for her to carry this burden of “holy living”. Jesus said His burden is easy and His yoke is light. Isaiah tells us Jesus carries the young and leads the nursing sheep with kindness.
What about the homeschool dad who is working to support the family? Suddenly he must lead nightly family worship after a long day. He is suddenly worried about having a mortgage as living debt free is the only way to live. Does he work for an employer? Now he knows truly godly men are self employed. Has he been encouraged and edified in his faith walk? Or has he been ensnared by the man made rules of legalism.
As sad as the hypocrisy of the affair of the homeschool leader in question is the blatant hypocrisy throughout his life is coming to light. How easy is to demand your followers have overflowing quivers when your household has nannies and housekeepers! How wonderful for you to insist on families to be living debt free when you are living in someone else’s home! How wonderful to stand on the piety of not celebrating Christmas while actively marketing it to be the biggest sale time of the year. Oh my! I could go on and on..
We have dear sweet friends who are so caught up in this movement. They have given us endless VF books and CD’s. They have gone to Jamestown and to retreats with VF. They have prayed for us to get the vision and fretted over our lives. They are good people. They love their children. They are working so very hard at all of this..and we see the daughter who is not allowed to dream of college and only to hope of marriage get more obsessed with boys every year. We see the son play the game in front of his parents and date girls behind their backs., We see friendship after friendship marred because they are not like minded.
The reason I responded here is your words above Julie Anne. I do believe one of the main reasons we may have stepped towards these ideals but never embraced them is because of our travels overseas. The Bible is true for all people, everywhere, for all times. As I have met precious ladies in West Africa who work so very hard to feed their children and hope and dream about school for them..maybe, possibly? The Americentric ideals of VF were laughable. When a little one in East Africa begged food of me there was no mother beside him checking the wrapper to see if the ingredients were organic. No, just a grateful woman, thankful her little one had a morsel of food. Oh, the imaginary demons of the homeschool world seem so petty amongst the mass of humanity in China where there is truly no freedom.
My heart breaks for the Phillips family may the joy of the Lord find them and bathe them in the freedom that the life of Christ is. May we all learn to walk wisely and may we not become so distracted by our fears and our failures that we forget that the greatest commandment is love.
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“And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. . . ‘”
Scripture points us to Jesus who has all authority. Scripture does not have all authority in itself. We worship Jesus, God in the flesh, not scripture. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit for strength and guidance to do what Jesus commanded his disciples to do.
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Gary, I know I won’t be popular because of it, but I do agree with much of what you have shared, in regards to how scripture views motherhood and marriage. My husband and I have raised two children, who are grown and have given us grandchildren. Throughout most of our marriage, I worked outside the home full time as a medical professional, trying at the same time to run my home, be a good mom, wife, etc.. Something always loses when Mom works full time. My life was no exception. I have so many regrets that I cannot go back and change. Time I missed that I can never get back with my older kids. I have walked the path of full time parenting for 34 years now. When our two adult children had left home, we were blessed with the role of stepping in as parents to raise one of our grandchildren, I decided to lay my professional life down, and embrace parenting, homemaking, and homeschooling. My husband was and is fully supportive of it. I don’t miss the demands of working outside the home. I truly believe that for those who choose, there is great joy and contentment to be had in being a keeper of the home. I was encouraged by a close friend, who was a college educated US Army Captain in command over some several hundred soldiers, when she laid down her career to be a stay at home mom, and in her words a “help mate” to her husband. Since that time she has thrived, gone on and finished a Master’s Degree, been involved in the discipleship of many women, all the while being a keeper of the home, marriage and children. My husband has encouraged me fully to return to further my college education if i want to. Both her and my husband have followed the biblical commands of how to love your wife, and provide for your family and household.
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Dear Concerned Dad:
What does God’s voice sound like to you? What does He say? What does He do?
Say and do those things.
Also, all of us who are parents: Read this blog post. It isn’t written by a Christian mother, but her advice is Christlike, compassionate to parents and children alike.
http://www.handsfreemama.com/2013/12/10/the-bully-too-close-to-home/
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Poor Gary Force, Just like his fellow travelers, the Pharisees, He is accusing Jesus of encouraging sin. See Luke 8
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Welcome, Hope!
You just described common traits of spiritual abuse
1 = love bombing = Hope’s paragraph describes it well – build up the people so they think they are so special. They quickly are drawn to the leader because of the pats on the backs.
2. Instill fear – – this causes them to get even closer to their leader who has all of the answers. He has convinced them that his teachings, his church, his methods are the only right way – – anything other than his ways are suspect.
3. This is more of #2. Also included in this is elitism, no one who does otherwise will ever measure up. It sets up a system where you are preoccupied with judging outsiders on their parenting, homeschooling, spirituality, etc. In this environment, you and your guru leader get to be the Holy Spirit for everybody else.
4. This is hero worship – – focus is on guru leaders books/workshops.
From everything I’ve read, Doug Phillips operated his church and functioned practically as a cult leader.
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Julie – – I hope you are not thinking that people here are putting down women who are homemakers. I’ve been privileged to be one for nearly 27 years.
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You’re right! I took the liberty to change the newer Mark to Mark 2 (unless he wants something else). Thanks for noticing.
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At least there are not 9Marks on this thread.
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Sometimes women are not supported to stay in the home. I would love nothing more than to have a ministry, which I have, but I need to make $$$ and haven’t really figured out how to do that with my ministry/business. I would love ideas on how to build something b/c my heart is sooooooooooooo NOT in having a full-time career. I am fully aware of how much I will miss and how much I may not have to give when I get home. My heart is broken over it. But, I have tried and tried to work from home and it just hasn’t been enough. So, Gary, I am curious how you think a woman should handle that. I see so much idealism that is not coupled with realism. .If I do not have a husband whose priority is to be a sole provider, then where does that leave a woman in a patriarchal paradigm? I know so many women who have suffered b/c they are taught to stay home and in doing so, the family is in poverty. it doesn’t add up to me.
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Ladies…
First, let me apologize if I sound like all those men that you reference so much and dislike so much. I knew my comments would be unpopular. But some clarification is in order.
1. Homeschooling had nothing to do with the matter of Titus 2 and being a keeper at home. It was a good model shown to me by my mom, her mom and now my wife. It is the spirit of the pattern shown throughout the Word of God.
2. Retha – I apolgize for spelling your name wrong. I realized it shortly after I posted, but had to step out for a meeting, thus did not correct. However, no, I did not answer verses for your every point, because to do so would be totally in vain. You are committed to the view you hold, as am I.
3. My proof for Retha is the whole of Scripture. I cited Gen 1-2, Proverbs 31, Titus 2 and other referenced. But in the cases you did respond to, you take some obscure meaning and press fit it on the Word tryind desperately to make it say what you want it to say. But you violate the letter and the spirit of the text in each case trying to hold your ground. The plain simple, historical, grammatical reading/ sense means that the Lady in a marriage orbits around her home. SHE IS NOT A SLAVE FOR THE MAN. She delights in her home and loving those under her care and loving the husband that is supposed to be loving her genuinely.
4. I understand that many men fail the test of loving their wife, but that does not mean that the model in the Word is wrong. It means that the men are wrong. There are 2000 years of Christian NT history that proves the general point that God designed the man to lovingly lead his wife and children, teaching them of Christ, caring about them, treating his wife with understanding and grace as the “weaker vessel”, etc. None of this is abusive or mean. DP and his group do not speak correctly for the Word of God. They are liars. Do they put burdens on women that are unjustified – yes. I agree. But the answer to their error is not to reject the pattern of homelife ordered in the Word of God. The answer is to live in love between a husband and wife. He would die for her. And his heart affections are centered around his home, his lovely bride and his blessed children. All of this ornates the Gospel of grace with beauty and winsomeness. Why do you react so coldly and viciously to this model? The answer is the rejection of God’s design which is the curse visited upon Eve. She would desire to control her husband and rule him. With her as the head. Men were cursed with endless toil just to provide for the family. However, Christ in His glorious gospel overshadows this curse and brings a sweetness to true christian marriage, parenting, etc… And the hope that someday this curse will be removed in the glories of heaven.
5. Ladies, single or otherwise – you are NOT property in the eyes of true Christian men. We honor you and want to build you up. But there is such mean parsing of the text of Scripture in trying desperately to prove that you can just leave the home day in and day out without any real negative consequences to the children of that marriage, the husband wife relationship and the whole stability of society. This is feminism in all it gory glory. Homes today are shambles because they are so parsed up, mom pursues her self interests, dad pursues his and somewhere the children are left with all the fallout. And we have now destroyed the next generation’s view of a stable home.
6. Exceptions – there are legitimate exceptions as to why ladies must work outside the home, but they are the exceptions, not the normative model God designed. And in the quiet of a nite, a lady knows this deep down inside. God made her maternal for a reason. We must stop making our life decisions on the minority exceptions. Now let me add that because of the destroyed homes from feminism the last 30 years or so, there are many more “exceptions” now, so sadly, many of them are almost normal anymore. I challenge any tender hearted ladies to just consider going home and consider making that the focus of your life, not because some fellow named Gary said it, but because it is the spirit of the Scriptures – from start to finish. Stop rebellinng against the Lord’s Plan.
7. The voices of feminism are just as vicious as those ridiculous patriarchial voices you hate. I had never even heard of the word patriarchy 30 years ago. We just purposed that God meant what He said and that He will honor those who honor Him. My wife quit her job at the end of our college time and home she has been ever since. Does it grow weary at times – yes. Does she long for the pretty nice clothes that the career wife has – yes, at times. But every day, she is with her dear children, old and young, leading, helping, listening, crying with, smiling with, etc… And that is on a blue collar income –single income. But you know what, her worth is more than all the riches of the world and she is so rich with all that she has been able to experience these nearly 30 years, as am I. The children know she has always been there – day or nite. And you cannot do this consistently being a career lady. Period. It is time for some to be honest about this fact.
7. Even if you continue your career pursuits, let me encourage you that there a many of us males who do not consider you chattle, not an object to be conquered, but holy creations in the sight of God that should be honored. There are still some Christian gentlemen who are still teaching our sons to be likewise. Go work your jobs, but if you ever decide to come home and put your whole heart there, you might just find that what God designed is more of a blessing than you ever knew.
8. Finally – for those truly God-called single ladies – you are free to pursue skills and training, and are not objects for fathers to control. You are precious ladies who have great opportunities to serve the Gospel of Christ in the home and families of the local church in many ways. Instead of doing it the world’s way, try the Lord’s way. Being a lady is a great honor. My father taught me that we should deeply appreciate Christian ladies, single or married and always honor them. But ladies – get rid of that haughty, shrill, ‘male-like’ warrior mentality and be a godly gal for Christ. Why feminism wants to be masculine still baffles many of us as males. It is disgusting. Ladies are the fairer sex, or used to be…
I am signing off. It would do no good to say more. except…
God will not be mocked – we sowed feminism in the 70’s and now we have the fruits – perversion on every hand, emasulated men and homes that are in complete shambles. We have reaped what we sowed. The misguided men, often lazy, whated their wives to go get a job and the defiant woman wants it, so, off to the work force she goes. All for money and “a life”. The only way out is to repent, turn to Christ and pursue a home, not by rules, by formula, but by the clear patterns of the Word. Husbands and wives who love each other, committed for life, home orders that undergird the marriage and model this for their children, so that there might be a better generation next time.
Christ be with you all,
Gary
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Maria,
So, Gary, I am curious how you think a woman should handle that. I see so much idealism that is not coupled with realism.
My answer – if your husband is not in favor of your coming home, then it is not worth the fight. Love him, love your children and do what you can to be home as much as possible. Pray that the Lord might send a gentle Christian man to your husband that might give him some things to consider. There are many men who do not have a vision for a Christian home nor the beauty of the wife at home, the virtues, etc… ( My father and mother taught me, then the Scriptures helped me to see why.)
And you may not can change him. But you can teach your daughters and sons gently and with respect toward your husband that they should seek out spouses that will honor the Word of God in this. Not by letter, but by spirit.
As to the realities – I do not know how “poor” you are and so you may truly be destitute and for that, there are no simple answers, except to trust the Lord, befaithful in your present job and ask the King of Heaven to open a door for you to fully honor him at home. Maybe help your husband see all the benefits.
If you are truly living very frugal and still cannot make it on your husband’s salary and there is nothing else you can do and he is not willing to work a second job ( I have done this at times to keep my wife home), then you must continue to work and leave the “exception” in Christ’s hand to change if He wishes.
But we are all so so lavish these days, far more than we realize. Maybe not you, but most of us. We have telephones, cable, internet, food, meals out, nice clothes, newer cars, trips, furniture, etc… Virtually every piece of furniture we own has come from a thrift store and we are a larger family. Most of our clothes from thrift stores, sometimes shoes, we have an older home, drive old cars, but my dear wife is home with our children, there when they need her and I get to see her dear face at the end of a long day. Then about 3 more hours with the family, then lights out. Starts over the next day. But we are a family, learning what it means to follow Christ, although very slowly and imperfectly. Do what you can to come home, pray and trust. Memorize Hebrews 11:5-6. Lovely Hope.
Gary
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Oh, my, Gary Fore! God be with you as well.
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Single ‘women’ you are made in the image of God!
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Recently, on the news, there was a very old man that was asked what advice that he gives for long life. His answer:
Always say, “Yes, dear” to your wife.
Ed
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Gary-
thank you for giving some realistic possibilities. I think that is far too often left out and women like me are left resentful, choose to be resentful, b/c we thought we had signed up for something else when we chose to have children. Often you really don’t know until things get hard. We don’t travel, or buy clothes unless absolutely necessary, none of that, we have older cars, etc… We have forgone lessons for the kids, fillings for the kids, all of it. It would be irresponsible for me not to work. I am just going to work, have been trying to have a home business, but it isn’t enough.
I teach my girls, actually, to make sure they get educated and start a career before choosing to have children. I wish I had done that. I did get my BA but it’s not in an area I want to work. I teach them to really know themselves before getting married. I also teach them to be very very wise about trusting another human to be their provider. I see soooooooooooooooo many women get stuck having too many kids before they realize that their husband was not really on board with the whole idea of providing at all cost. I think it is really irresponsible to depend on another person for your provision. At one time, maybe it was realistic, but this is a different time and I have had so much heartache over my own decision to trust another in that area. I never intended life to go this way, but I am learning that God moves in a mysterious way and I need to stop blaming my husband and start trusting that there was a different plan for me all along.
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And Ed, respectfully, for me that is boring and offensive advice:) I much prefer to hash things out and not be agreed with all the time!
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Maria,
If you hang around here a while you will learn that Ed has great respect for women and also loves a healthy debate with men and women alike.
I had a good laugh at the “yes,dear” because that’s not the Ed that I know.
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OH!!! Very good to know:) I actually hear men say that seriously…
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Oh, and Maria, he uses a healthy dose of sarcasm, too.
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While I do not agree with Gary’s assertions as to what the Bible says about the dear “ladies” of the world, I do agree it is good to have someone at home with the children, at least as possible. For some families, it is the dad who chooses to stay home. Think of the advantages of the children getting to spend time with Dad other than just a few hours each evening (and less if he is working two jobs). I’ve known families where the parents each spent a portion of the school years being the at-home parent and the family thrived. My husband and I shared a ministry job while our children were young, and our children love how much time they had with their dad because of it.
I also wonder how much of this attitude of “ladies should be at home” is actually because it is easier for the men that way. When our children were in jr high and high school, we did a switch and my husband worked full time while I stayed home. It’s horribly hard work, especially when you homeschool. There is little interaction on an intellectual level and how often is there acknowledgment of the work you do from colleagues? Sure, your children are the proof but you can’t really control how they turn out – not like you can when you design something or produce something. Your ego is all tied up in your children and that’s not healthy. I liked it when I was gone to an overnight meeting and came home to a clean house and dinner ready. I’d had time with colleagues, been challenged on a work level and came home to an adoring husband and family. No wonder men like Gary want to push women into staying home. They get to avoid all the messiness of daily life with kids that way.
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Note that Gary blamed women for emasculating men. Gary is spouting the Fundy party politics. Which is always amusing as it gives women power over his masculinity. Perhaps oneday he will find his security in Christ
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Haha, well, then, I like him! I’ll take sarcasm over passive any day!
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His Beloved, this has been a busy thread. I was puzzled by Hugs comment to you. Of course I read things through a different lens, and I heard you. Glad you responded @ December 10, 2013 @ 11:25 AM
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Maria,
Yes, I do have a sarcastic sense of humor, and I mean no disrespect at all to anyone. Sometimes, however, I just cannot get on board with the belief systems of some people here. I’m all about freedom. There is NO set of rules. Each family should just do as what suits them. What suits one family does not suit another. No one should be writing a rule book on do’s and don’ts. I don’t like the rule book. Throw the rule book out the window. Yes, even Gary’s rule book.
All this “Me Tarzan, You Jane” stuff is for the birds.
I, myself, can’t stand a submissive woman. I like a woman with brains, and goals, with an ambition that states that she can be who she wants to be…the next President, etc. But it seems that some MEN with low self esteem issues wants to control what the women do, where they go, what they wear, who they talk to, and the list goes on and on and on, etc. I have no room in my life for men like that.
Some men can’t stand that women are in the military. My daughter is in the Navy. I am proud. I used to be in the Navy. Many of my supervisors were women…due to the nature of my job of being a payroll clerk. Oh, I know, some of the manly men here might say that’s a woman’s work, anyway…office secretary stuff, who can type, while the manly men dig ditches, right?
I am proud of the womens lib, that some here despise…and some women despise it as well. Well, I salute those who began it.
With respect to all…
Ed
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Gary, you keep on insisting that you already made your point. “It is in Genesis 1! No, the only texts in Genesis 1 to mention man and women say both are made: a) in the image of God, b) to rule the earth c) to be fruitful and fill it. The last imply the biological role of child bearing (which people and even animals know without the Bible), but gives no non-biological role.
“It is in Genesis 2!” I simply do not see it: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/gender-roles-in-genesis-2-where/
“It is in Proverbs 31!” Almost everything this woman do could describe a good man (work hard outside the home, provide for her family so they are well dressed, respected by spouse and children and even “in the gates”, helps the poor, etc.) This is not a list of things a man should not do, or he will be usurping the female role. If you read it as orbiting round home and children, you AFAIK read with gender role glasses, I have never seen anyone make an argument from the text for it. I would say Proverbs 31 wrecks havoc with the man-as-provider idea you have, this woman who goes “afar” to bring in food from there, who sells at the market (not from her home), who buys a piece of land and plants a vineyard (she is not at home, but out in her vineyard), who has money to pay her servants (I think they stay with her children when she is away?) well.
You still do the posturing thing, instead of numbering the 5 questions and answering – if not for my sake, then for the edification of others who get advice here.
You said:
“you take some obscure meaning and press fit it on the Word tryind desperately to make it say what you want it to say. But you violate the letter and the spirit of the text in each case trying to hold your ground.”
I disagree on which one of us two is doing that.
“8. Finally – for those truly God-called single ladies – you are free to pursue skills and training, and are not objects for fathers to control. You are precious ladies who have great opportunities to serve the Gospel of Christ …”
Just like men, not a gender role
“… in the home and families of the local church in many ways…”
Where do you get our service should be “in homes and families?” If it is not the message of Jesus or the rest of the Bible, why should we believe you? Ironically enough, Doug Phillips sexually used a woman who was “serving in the home” of him, who was a leader in her “local church”.
“Instead of doing it the world’s way, try the Lord’s way.”
Just like men, not a gender role
Being a lady is a great honor. My father taught me that we should deeply appreciate Christian ladies, single or married and always honor them. But ladies – get rid of that haughty, shrill, ‘male-like’ warrior mentality and be a godly gal for Christ. Why feminism wants to be masculine still baffles many of us as males. It is disgusting. Ladies are the fairer sex, or used to be…
Do you think God finds it okay for men to be haughty? He does not, so it is no gender role. Does he find it okay for men to be shrill? I am pretty sure God wants both men and women to stand against what is wrong, even if it sometimes need “shrillness.” You have not told any of us from the Bible what is a gender role for single women. Unless, of course, you want men to be haughty and shrill and not serve anybody’s home or family.
“Husbands and wives who love each other, committed for life, home orders that undergird the marriage and model this for their children,”
Husbands and wives who love each other, commited for life, is very common among people who don’t see gender roles in the Bible. Believers in gender roles are more likely, statistically, to have unhappy marriages. Many who think unlike you model love to their children
@Julie, Dec 11 @ 1:35 pm
I am very much in favor of stay-at-home mothers, when the circumstances and the mother is right for it. I am equally much in favor of stay-at-home dads. I am glad my mother stayed at home when I was little. So, from the second to second last sentence of your comment, I am with you 100%.
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Ed, you are a real man!!!! I do wonder however if Gary force greets his brothers with a holy kiss? After all its prescribed and its biblical. (wink)
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lydiasellerofpurple,
Well, David and Jonathan were rather close!! LOL!!
Ed
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A Concerned dad, I think one thing is: Do love, not legalism.
Some people hear of mothers who seem to not care about their children or husbands, and try to find rules in the Bible about mothers staying at home and daughters staying at home and about submissiveness.
They hear of young people sleeping around and make strict courtship rules.
Etc., etc…
Others hear of these things, and advocate loving God above all and loving others as self. They know that if these things are in place in the life of a wife, daughter or son, God and his Spirit could figure out their priorities, their sexual choices, etc. It is a relationship, not a rule book.
For one woman, loving her children could mean working so they are fed. For another who could afford to stay at home, loving her special needs child may mean home schooling, while loving her extroverted child with the leadership gift could mean sending him to a public high school where there are people to befriend and to lead. Love is not a formula, but a dynamic way of knowing yourself and those around you and caring about what is in their best interest.
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I’m late to this party. Want to say that I tried everything when it came to schooling my kids. Held one back before starting him while we let another start early. We tried homeschooling for 7 years, public school, charter school, and Christian school. I have taught and been a principal of a small non-sectarian school. Nothing is perfect. Each situation had benefits along with negatives. Each child needed something different.
Kids need love. As parents we have to model apologizing, humbling ourselves, admitting we were wrong, etc… We also have to model picking ourselves up and trying again, something else, and keep trying till something works well enough. The kids need us to chill out, relax, and love in a natural way … not an “in your face ” pressured “quality time” from mom who won’t feel good about herself if her child(ren) don’t agree what an incredible time they are having together.
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What I see here is a lot of people telling you what you should and should not do. The advice may or may not be biblical. But the point is…they are PEOPLE. Just like Doug Phillips! What will you do if you follow one of them and realize later down the road that THEY were wrong, too? This should be a wake-up call to us all that we are idolaters at heart. We may not be bowing down to a golden calf as the children of Israel did, but we want to put man on the throne rather than GOD. What should you do differently? Start by dethroning man and putting God back on the throne of your heart. Then take a serious look at a variety of Christian teachings and dig DEEPLY into the Word to see what is true! Or, better yet, START by digging into God’s Word yourself! Personally, I believe many (NOT all) things that DP taught were biblical or valuable in a practical sense…taught by an extremely hypocritical man. But thankfully, I am also having to go back and double-check to make sure whatever teachings I held to truly were biblical. We are all idolaters at heart and I’m sure some things slipped in that I did not fully evaluate against Scripture. I see this as a good thing and it does not shake me…only sharpens me. Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:1…”Be imitators of me, AS I AM OF CHRIST.” That last phrase is the key!
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I come over to places like this and read this blather about traditional gender roles and women’s natural orbit circumscribed to the home. Then, I get in the car, and drop the kids off at school, where they and their hundreds of friends and family all go and have all gone, going back 3 generations. Until I met the profoundly damaged, spiritually and emotionally abused young homeschooled women over the last 3 years, I’d never known anyone who was homeschooled. No one in my family or peer group did it. Ever. No one. Amazingly, we’re all doing pretty well, too.
While the kids are at great (but yes flawed) public schools where they are learning the foreign languages I never knew and math I could never master, I venture into Real Live, where, again, I wonder where these people are who believe that women and daughters should be orbiting the home. I manage and am managed by men and women. Amazingly, no one ever tells the Chairwoman, the Vice President, the elected or appointed official, the woman in uniform, or the woman with all the initials after her name that she’s an ungodly person for forsaking her home orbit to help better the world for the rest of us.
(By the by, I am agog at these patriarchs who somehow think that men can’t work around women without being distracted when my teen boy manages to get A’s in Honors French and Geometry with “hot” teen girls next to him. My male co-workers and husband manage to get through a day without making passes at interns. What makes these patriarchs such special snowflakes?)
The judgmental privilege that pervades smug condemnation of working families enrages me. Not every family has the luxury of having one parent at home and not every parent has personal or intellectual wherewithal to manage household and education. My gosh, haven’t the homeschool survivors taught us that these children would have been far, far better off, far safer, far healthier anywhere other than their abusive home environments? A public school teacher who does to these children what parents did to them would have been prosecuted.
Be easy, friends. Some parents find their bliss in work outside the home. Being a parent is great, but it’s not the sum total of a person and is not the sole measurement of self-worth.
Similarly, public school and college isn’t right for every kid but in my considerable anecdotal experience, it’s really, really good for an awful lot of them. Further, out here in my Real Life, to the parent, we are all raising our children, all our children, with an eye to obtaining advanced, post-high school degrees and look really, really askance at any parent who wouldn’t set the bar at least that high. I will defend to my dying breath the morality of my family’s decision to work and public school our kids over the educational neglect and oppression of daughters.
yes, I know, it’s all anecdotal and I’m really an outlier over here. This blather about gender roles, natural orbits and inclinations, and patriarchy have no support in the daily fabric of my real life or, as near as I can tell, in Biblical text.
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Amen Katie! I am really benefitting from this discussion b/c its helping me see my idealisms, my illusions, more clearly and see how they take me away from my family rather than bring me closer. Thank you all for being willing to carry this conversation on.
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Yes, Ruth, I have seen many damaged homeschooled kids as well. Not across the board, but so often, it is out of fear and shame that the parents are doing it, and that is never a good recipe. In my case, I realized I was abusive and unhealthy in homeschooling. I had been abused and had never dealt with it, didn’t know to. So much healing needs to happen in many of these families and what’s sad is that it’s all done in the name of faithfulness which is a big cover up for, “I don’t believe I’m enough or I believe I’m a mistake.” and the beliefs just get passed down and never dealt with b/c we believe in the illusion that there is actually a formula for this thing called life when God actually calls us into the Mystery, and away from the formulas that deceive us into thing thinking we are OK b/c we found the ‘formula’
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I predict this will remain my favorite comment of the day:
Can anyone top that?
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I think it’s interesting that when a lot of male church leaders pontificate about women in the Bible, they never mention my all- time favorite, Jael :-).
In all seriousness, this is a good thread question and so many good answers. I am a 42 year old woman and a product of a fundamental church and school. K-12. Luckily for me and my siblings, my parents didn’t buy into all of it such as the role of women in the home, “full time Christian service” should be one’s first job choice, no movies, no mixed swimming (We after all, were a competitive swimming family.) no, no, no, no, no. My father was a doctor. My mother was a nurse turned SAHM – her choice. They were fundamental in that they believed in the inerrancy of Scriptures, the virgin birth, the literal death and resurrection, salvation through the work of Christ, etc., etc., etc. They did not believe that we were to live our lives literally as those in the Middle East 4000 years ago. Our home was not run in such a manner.
That being said, I bear many scars of my fundamental Christian school as my parents didn’t know all the things that were being taught me re: “role” of women and work. My mom was shocked years later when I told her what had been engrained. The pastor did not preach such things from the pulpit, but the Headmaster (Yes, that’s what he called himself, and he has an honorary doctorate from a Christian college with no doctoral program, and he makes sure people call him “Doctor.”) My parents had me there b/c for a long time the school offered a classical Christian education, but then things changed when this new leader came in and started teaching that if we really loved God we’d be preachers or preachers wives or missionaries, and women needed to wear skirts and culottes. (Jeans were form fitting and caused men to lust. Brilliant. Loved that I was introduced to body hating as an 11 year old child.) I never felt an inkling of that call on my life so there was much angst on my part that something was wrong with me, and I just didn’t love God enough.
I went onto college as did all of my siblings, but the best thing that ever happened to me was marrying an Army officer and being thrust into the military life. A lieutenant colonel once told me, “The church can learn a lot from the Army.” That was an understatement. There is plenty of wrongdoing in the military, but his point was overall there is equality, concern and care for one another respect, hard work and dignity for all. I especially loved the military chapel where my eyes were opened to the many teaching of other Protestant faiths as well as Catholicism. Surprise, surprise, these folks loved Jesus just like me – they just worshiped in different ways. Their skin color was different. We came from all kinds of socio economic backgrounds. We were reared differently. But we were one in Christ!
I say all that to share this. I now have children of my own. It’s taken a long time and wise counsel to shed the wrong thoughts and ideas ingrained into me as a little girl in that fundamental school. A VERY LONG TIME. I am not alone. About eight of us childhood girlfriends got together a few years ago for our milestone birthdays, and slowly started to share where we were spiritually. It was amazing to hear that so many of us had the same hang ups and struggled with the same mindsets for years. We all love Jesus. We are all still in churches, but we are all rearing our children differently than how we were reared – especially those of us with daughters. I would suggest to those of you who did not grow up in this manner to listen to those of us that did – whether it was taught via homeschool, church or private Christian school. It is detrimental to those of use who are highly creative and inquisitive. It harms our spirits and souls to the core. It shames us and makes us question what’s wrong with us – that somehow we are very, very bad b/c we don’t desire to be the things that were taught we were supposed to desire. I can’t tell you how many times we were called rebellious. What we really were was curious, but we weren’t given answers for our serious questions. We just has Bible verses hurled at us ad nauseum with no background, language or cultural explanations.
I always said I would educate our daughters in the manner that was best for them – not what’s best for my husband or me, but them. They spent their pres-school and early elementary in private Christian school, and I loved their teachers and their experience. Then we moved to another town, and the Spirit really worked on my heart about my views of public school and convicting me that I was living in fear. I’d poured my heart and God’s heart into these girls, and they weren’t going to suddenly turn into bloodthirsty killers. Turns out, where we live now the public school offers a program that is much more rigorous than the private schools in the area. They still love Jesus. They still desire to learn about the Bible and please God and share Him with others. Most of their teachers are lovely Christians. (Just more assurance for me , that in this season, we are in the right place. I love how God confirms when we choose to obey his calling.) God blessed us with tremendously bright girls, and we believe our job is to shepherd this intellect into anything He has planned for their futures be it world renowned scientist or stay at home mother. Recently, I’ve observed one of my daughters learns math in a different manner than how it is being presented in schools. As a former teacher, I am very aware of all the emphasis placed on standardized tests, and in all my research, which is quite a lot, I’m finding that this is a huge detriment to some children. My daughter is one of these children so I am now considering homeschooling next year for her.
This isn’t based on fear. This isn’t about biblical mandates. This isn’t about my staying home because that’s where the Bible tells me I am supposed to be. This is about my child and what is best for her. Her sister will probably stay where she is for now. We’ll see. She’s thriving. This isn’t about picking out a few verses out to throw out like a weapon. This is about a living, breathing human being whom God gave me in His generosity. This is about a young lady that God has used tremendously to undue all the harm placed upon my “wild at heart” spirit when I was her age. This is about “the least of these” – the ones Jesus said, “Get out of the way, and let them come.”
Maybe if we adults started treating our children with the dignity and respect they deserve as image bearers, we wouldn’t hem them in so tightly. I know plenty of home schoolers who have gotten into plenty of trouble. I know many who have gone on to do wonderful things and are quite successful professionally.
The same can be said of kids in public and Christian schools. The best we can do is listen and hear and heed the work of the Spirit in our lives, and pray God’s grace over our children. What God has in store for my daughter in the public school might be a completely different end than your son who is home schooled. What I am supposed to be learning about God in stepping in faith and out of different school situations is going to be different from what God is teaching all of you here about Himself. After all, though we are one in Christ, we are different people entirely.
I have not walked away from my faith. I know all the Scriptures, the doctrine. I know all the pat answers – because I’ve heard them and in turned used them unfortunately to harm others. (Sigh. I’ve prayed for grace into those people’s lives I know I’ve unintentionally harmed when I was still stuck in that legalistic thought process, and I’ve sough forgiveness.). But knowing and living in true freedom are two different things. I am thankful for what I learned ABOUT the Bible in my youth, but I am even more thankful for a God who loves me enough to transform my heart and mind through those Scriptures. I pray this transformation for my daughters as well…no matter where their classrooms lie.
Finally, I’d like to say I bear no ill will towards the folks who were my teachers way back when. I’m happy to say they, along with my “headmaster” have loosened their grips as well and I’m hearing that rules and teachings at the school of my childhood aren’t nearly as restrictive and legalistic now. I’m so happy for the students – especially the girls!
Thanks for letting me share my heart. I apologize the length, but it’s been on my mind for at least a day or so since reading the post title. I have learned so much from so many of you here.
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Welcome, Priscilla. No need to apologize for the length of your comment. I loved reading your story and what’s been stirring in your heart.
I was just thinking about Ed’s earlier comment on rules and how he can’t stand them. Ed is a long-time reader and his no-nonsense faith and understanding Scripture has taught me much.
If you notice, those who are entrenched in the Homeschool Movement, are also entrenched in rules. They claim these rules to be Biblical, but they are extra-Biblical which means they are anti-Biblical.
Retha has asked Gary Fore some pointed questions about what he claims to be Biblical gender roles and instead of responding directly, he seems to shut down the conversation by saying: we’ll never agree, so there’s no use in arguing. That is a cop out. That is a very weak response.
If Gary Fore is sure of himself and his Bible (aka Rule Book), then he should have no problem identifying specific verses as Retha and I have requested.
When I talk Homeschool Movement, I’m not just talking about Doug Phillips, but a whole lot of men who follow similar ideologies. I’m going to keep going back to it, but these leaders are fueled by the Reconstructionist ideologies. This means Old Testament laws are more valid to them than what Jesus did.
I feel a tug of war every time someone like Gary Fore comes here. They seem to have the right words, but in reality, they are forcing people to go back to Old Testament Rules and Regs and then they tell us we are the ones going away from Scripture, being influenced by the F word = Feminists.
Um, no – I think we are influenced by the J word = Jesus!
Jesus came to free us from that!
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I have not yet read all the replies and will do so later.
To the homeschool dad who this post is about: I hear you. My husband and I have been going through the same questions since we left patriarchy around three years ago. When you believe something for so long and then your world is rocked, it necessarily opens up more questions than answers.
The world of patriarchy/quiverfull is damaging. I just had my sixth child in August and my body is beyond exhausted and broken (and guess what, with so many young kids, I don’t have time to go to the doctor to get the care I need). I am OVERWHELMED. Because of this, we will more than likely be sending some of our children to public school next year. My heart is broken over this unnecessarily because of the lies I bought in the homeschooling/quiverfool culture. Instead of recognizing that my children will get a better academic education in a place where they are not having to watch babies all day and do nothing but household chores that I cannot keep up with, I feel immense guilt that I have somehow failed. It is impossible for me to homeschool *well* when I have toddlers and babies at home. Yet, it is so very important for me that my kids get a good education. This is their only chance to learn.
I am sorry if I hurt those who believe in “quiverfull.” However, let me implore you, as one of the women whom it has hurt both physically and emotionally, quiverfull thinking *can* harm its women.
As for the questions:
Would you still home-school knowing what you know now? – No, I honestly believe my children would get a better education at a good school. Of course, this is just my case. Many people, small and large families, are able to homeschool very, very well; unfortunately, that is not the same with me.
What would you do differently? – I would stop reading materials on parenting/schooling/marriage/etc.! My husband and I should have turned towards Jesus instead and looked at the very particular needs of our own family and built our methods of child-rearing out of those. We would not have tried to fit ourselves into gender roles, because that is not how the gospel should be viewed. Instead of a pink and blue gospel, we should have viewed it through the eyes of Jesus, the One by Whom the Gospel was created.
Do you recommend any form of discipline/training? I’ve been drawn to love and logic and have read/listened to some of those materials. Any other advice for those of us our here who are someone in between those two camps? – Look at each of your children and see who they are as human beings. Work with them on their weaknesses just as you would an employee or someone outside of your family. Treat them with dignity and respect. You will then begin to learn what works best for your family in regards to discipline.
Enough of my rambling. Thanks for the opportunity to voice my thoughts, Julie Anne!
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Ahem. Sorry, Julie Anne. I’ve had about 4 versions of this for 2 days now plus a private email to you and after dealing with a week’s worth of great women making great decisions for the betterment of business and consumers, I just had to come wading in as the jackbooted worldly feminist thug who objects most strenuously to these arbitrary gender roles. As a matter of basic human rights and autonomy, it’s immoral to oppress women and daughters, whatever the source of moral teaching. Similarly, the ideas that men and women must occupy these separate spheres and that public schools are government subsidized child abuse are simply not in accord with my 50+ years in the world. And speaking of, it’s time to return to that real world and the writing I get paid to do.
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Ruth, I agree. It’s about basic human rights and freedom for every individual. Well said.
Thank God for women like Harriet Beacher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom’s Cabin, who denounced slavery. She said:
“I wrote what I did because as a woman, as a mother, I was oppressed and broken-hearted with the sorrows and injustice I saw, because as a Christian I felt the dishonor to Christianity – because as a lover of my county, I trembled at the coming day of wrath.” http://www.harrietbeecherstowecenter.org/hbs/
A shame some have twisted Christianity to defend inequality. And that it’s still going on in regards to women & children.
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As a young man, I went to public high school and college, and was still a virgin at 21 years old. I had dates with two young women while in high school whose mothers left us alone in the house on several occasions and in one instance I found myself kissing a girl who, while I was kissing her was undressing herself. I left. I was of the opinion that the moms in both cases wanted a son-in-law much earlier than I wanted to be someone’s son-in-law, if you get my meaning.
I think a lot of the issue of the morality of public education, both el-hi and college, is misplaced. The issue is what is instilled into the hearts and minds of Christian kids regarding moral life and consequences of not living a moral life. BTW, I had cousins who were in religiously affiliated schools and left, went to a public school, and before the year was out, were parents — it had happened on the religiously affiliated school campus!
If you cloister your children, you will deprive them of the experience they need to handle situations. If you teach your daughters that men have the say, then they will be more likely to give in to the pressure of the young man they are with to have sex — after all, he’s the man, isn’t he.
People need to be serious about teaching children how to make moral decisions, not just some rules, because there are always counter arguments and exceptions to rules.
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A woman’s role is to orbit around the home? We are now birds circling or planets orbiting? This is what Christian faith is about? Ha! I think that’s a funny joke!
Seriously now, Gary. What about a woman who is in chemo? What about the woman in a coma? What about the woman who is physically disabled? What about a woman with morning sickness? Does the husband tell her she’s in sin for not fulfilling her “orbiting role”?
What about a man with PTSD from the horrors of war? What about a man who is physically disabled? What if he’s depressed? What if he was homeschooled & doesn’t have a high school or college degree? Is he in sin for not fulfilling his “bring home the bacon role”?
Gary, Is your answer to these very real people that God may or may not decide to change them & then walk on by? Does your conscience tinge you a bit? It should. We do not place burdens on others. You say she might change him, then God may change him, then you question if she really needs the money. These are non-solutions, nothing she can implement. Didn’t you read her comments first before responding to her? If you did, you would have known she explained, with sadness. Your response seems cold, disrespectful, & harsh to me. This is not how Jesus would respond to her. We are one body, brothers & sisters in Christ. We do not hurt each other. We comfort & love each other.
Maria, Thank you for sharing your thoughts & for chiming in. I have enjoyed reading your comments. You nailed it here:
“I see so much idealism that is not coupled with realism.”
That, my friends, is ivory tower living (Jesus, our savior, was born in a barn). Elitist thinking. We misunderstand the life of Jesus if we think this way.
Maria, You are valued. You are of great worth. Do what’s best for you and your family & feel good about doing it. Don’t feel ashamed or less than. You are not. You have every reason to hold your head high. I applaud you. 🙂
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Christianity is not about stay at home moms. It’s not about homeschooling. It’s not about leadership or authority of men or patriarchy or complementarianism. It’s not about marriage. It’s not about looking for evil under every rock. It’s not about denying or hiding evil either. It’s not about building campaigns. It’s not about taking over the world. It doesn’t make people believe. It doesn’t shrug at suffering. It’s not about living at arms-length. It’s not about building walls, castles, ivory towers to “protect” families. That is the dark ages lifestyle.
It is a dishonor to Christianity to say this is what Christianity is.
Christianity as a lifestyle is to love God & love others the same as we love ourselves, according to Jesus himself. Matthew 22. This is what will draw others to Christianity.
Christianity is life-affirming. It values life. It celebrates life. Anything other is not Christian.
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Yes, it’s about stepping out of the realm of the illusion of control and jumping into the Mystery.
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Retha,
Ok. Here are six verse sections from Holy Scripture. Tell me how they are supposed to be interpreted against their plain read.
#1 Gen. 3:16, the last phrase “he shall rule over you” ( ~ 5 words) – regarding roles and who is the God ordained leader in the home, including over the wife. ( Now remember that I have already stated clearly that a husband is not a cruel overlord, but a tender loving man who does stand as the final lead in the home, but the goal is always to do so in grace and kindness and making onenness the pursuit. So, don’t accuse me of absuing the words, “rule over you.”
#2 I Corinthians 11:3 – ” the man is the head of a woman”
#3 I Corinthians 11:9 woman is created for the man’s sake, not the reverse.
#4 I Timothy 2: 11-15 Woman does not exercise authority over a man. Even if you limit it to the church worship, do you adhere to this?
#5 Titus 2:5 “being subject to their own husbands” (submission)
#6 Titus 2:5 “workers at home” regarding the general role of the lady to “orbit” around the home as her daily focus.
There you go. You have explicit texts. Tell me how they do not mean what they plainly say.
Take care,
Gary
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To the Concerned Dad:
While it is disheartening and discouraging to see people we trust and look up to fail, the bottom line is what does God want me as a father to do? It doesn’t matter what happens to other people. What matters is has God called me to homeschool. Am I following Christ or man? Do I swallow and believe everything I hear or do I search the scriptures daily to find out the truth for my family? We must lead our children into a relationship with Christ. Our goal should not be to just get them to obey us but to obey the Lord. We must have as our goal to release them to serve the Lord. I’ve been around Christian circles, churches, even worked for well-known Christian Ministries and I’ve found two types of people:
1. The bigger group who follows man and tries to conform to and be like a man.
2. The smaller group who takes what they hear and channels it through what God would have them do.
One thing I learned from my parents when I was growing up was that the world could be going to hell but we were going to serve the Lord even if it meant standing alone! I’ve pastored many a people who fail to obey God in an area and as a result become out of balanced in other areas. They try to live the Christian life in their own strength or like the person they look up to. That my friend is bondage! Until they obey God in the area that He has convicted them of they never find freedom. I’ve seen them leave the church, thinking that it and its teachings, was the problem, only to go further into bondage and ruin. God will test us on every area we thought we believed.
The question we must ask is, “Is it Biblical and how does God want me to apply it to my family.”
God will speak to you Concerned Dad. You must seek him. He will lead you step by step. It’s a walk of faith to raise a family. You follow your position as leader and provider. You must practice your position as a servant. Does your wife and children see your leadership to them as Christ loved the church? Are you cleansing your wife as well as your kids by washing yourself in His Word. Ephesians 5 tells us that is how Christ cleanses the church. You must study Christ, not men. Children learn what is lived not just what is taught. Do you see everything you do as a way of life or a set of rules and standards? We must have standards but they must be based on Biblical Principles that God has shown us how to apply in our family.
Finally, make sure you teach your children how to seek the Lord. Many times I can tell my children to do what’s right. I can even make them do it. I’ve learned to ask them when they are not doing right, “Did you read your Bible this morning and talk to the Lord?” If not, then I tell them to go settle it with the Lord and obey what he tells them. This is leading them into a willing and loving relationship with the Lord. My greatest desire is to see all my 10 children come to know Christ as savior and know him personally, for in that, they will do what’s right not because of me but because of Him!
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Gary Fore,
Even setting aside your misapplication of Gen. 3:16 and the fact that the translation of your Pauline verses are contested, you seem to have substituted some sort of de facto law of Paul for the law of Moses. Therefore, you may wish to examine yourself, whether you are even in the faith. I expect you are, but there is reason to conclude that you may not be.
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Gary,
What in the world are you saying… Each of those verses are either quotes or very close phrases from the NASB. Hardly a liberal, unproven translation?
I only did what Retha asked. Here are verses – what do they mean?
Gary
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Gary Fore,
You seem to be substituting rules and regulations (a/k/a laws) for Faith in Jesus. Therefore, I am suggesting you should examine yourself whether you are a true believer.
As to the reliability of the NASB, it is generally very good. However, I know enough Greek to recognize that there are certain areas where the translation was driven by theological traditions.
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Oh boy, here it comes. A misogynist walks into a spiritual abuse survivor blog spouting the usual oppressive nonsense. I’ll just leave the Biblical arguments to others. (I never did learn Greek during those decades I was proclaiming Biblical text to men and women (cue fainting couch and pearl clutching) as I was too busy being a wife, mom, and YES supervisor to young men who were required to submit to my management authority. The men are all undoubtedly gay and damaged now. I’ll ask their wives tonight at the office Christmas party I am now late to).
To any young women lurking out there, let this old lady suggests that should a man quote any of those passages (and especially Timothy 2) to you as an expectation for your behavior, do what I do, and laugh in his face. Then, run, and don’t look back, because that submission stuff is toxic and no basis for the kind of relationship you want to have with a man. You do not ever submit to a man simply because he is a man and you are a woman. Ever.
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Gary and Ruth,
Gary – I will cease, not because I am in error, but because you refuse to simply acknowledge what I wrote to Retha. SHE asked me to give her specific verses about roles and the home. So, I gave six passages and asked her to comment. She has not ( probably because she has not yet seen them), but you write as if I have committed some horrid sin by asking what these verses mean if they don’t mean what they say at face value. I await Retha’s answer to these.
In the meantime, my giving some references as a basis for the male/female design from God does not make me a “law” believer ( or unbeliever). There are many verses that also talk to the man that he is to love selflessly his wife, support her, love the children, be kind, etc. Again, I was not writing this list in anyway other than to simply answer RETHA’s comment that I had not supplied any foundational verses for my thoughts on M/F roles.
Ruth – you obviously scorn the words that God says. So your mockery is in His face, not mine. I have repeatedly talked about the gentle loving relationship between a true Christian husband and his true Christian wife. It is mutual love and commitment. One is not superior to the other. They just have different functional roles, defined not by you, nor by me, but by GOD. The God of the Bible. So, if you reject that authority, His authority, then, there is nothing more to say. You can laughg( scorn), but someday, you will not be laughing. It will be Him with which you have to do. Heb 4:12-13.
God designed the order. Go ahead and reject it – you will have to face Him over it someday. Sadly, for you, you will not escape Him. It won’t be pretty.
Again, all I did is reply to Retha to ask her about the verses that she says I cannot supply that will provide support for God’s design for men and women.
Ya’ll have a good day,
Gary
I Timothy 6:20-21; 2 Timothy 4:1-5.
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Gary Fore says: “Ruth – you obviously scorn the words that God says.” Setting the question whether Ruth was scorning anything or anybody, since when did Paul become God? The Old Testament prophets spoke the words God gave them. I can think of one place where Paul claimed to repeat what God said. Maybe there are one or two instances that are not coming to mind. Otherwise, where is it written that Paul is the mouthpiece of God?
So, Gary Fore, when you say that to scorn Paul is to scorn God, you have made an idol, a false God, of Paul. It is one more reason you may wish to examine yourself as to whether you are even in the faith. Please understand, I am not saying you are not in the faith, but there does seem to be an idolatrous devotion to Paul that should, just maybe, serve as a warning.
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Gary Fore said the following phrases:
Gary Fore:
I have a hunch and please correct me if I’m wrong, that you think the above words are “loving” to Ruth – that you are trying to “lovingly” correct her.
Some people would say instead, “we seem to have different interpretations of the same passage,” but instead, you go in for the kill. The way you communicate – trying to induce the fear of hell is not the way I saw Jesus communicate with people except to the Pharisees.
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Concerned Dad, I can’t add much to this thread except a site that’s already been mentioned (thatmom.com) and the books by Clay and Sally Clarkson recommended by that site: Heartfelt Discipline and Our 24 Family Ways. http://www.thatmom.com/podcasts/the-clay-clarkson-interview-series/
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Mr. Fore:
Jesus said that all of the OT can be summarized in two laws: Love God with all your being and love your neighbor as yourself. All of the law and the prophets. Any rule you need to OT to derive has been replaced with the law of love. And it is presumptuous of any Christian to take a NT verse or passage and twist it into a rule that makes one of Jesus two laws less that fully effective. All are adopted by accepting the gift of God through faith.
If you want to get technical, the first Apostle commissioned by Jesus to tell the story of the resurrection to the then future male Apostles (def of an Apostle – one who was commissioned by Jesus directly in person after the resurrection, and some limit it to those to were commissioned before the ascension) was Mary Magdalene, a woman. The very first sermon preached by the church, other than those preached by Jesus himself, was Mary M preaching to the 11 and others present in the upper room shaking in their boots in fear of the Jewish and Roman authorities coming to get them and crucify them too. She was the first teacher, first preacher, for she did what Jesus told her to do.
All of the rules about women teaching or preaching, etc., are of Pauline origin, and Paul was addressing problems in cultures which ranged from patriarchal to super-patriarchal, all rules which Jesus apparently ignored and disavowed. Women were chattel to the society but not to Jesus.
So who do you follow: Jesus or some non-divine human being. Because maintaining the patriarchal rules is NOT FOLLOWING JESUS!!!.
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Gary Fore: “As to scripture to prove the roles. Genesis 1-2, many other OT sections make the roles clear,”
I wonder if you could clarify for me your view of Genesis 1-2 by answering the following for me: How many commands does God give to Man in Genesis 1-5, according to Moses, and what are they? What is the primary teaching of Jesus from this passage?
I do have a very strong opinion on these which I’ll share if you’d like to discuss.
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Gary Fore,
I’ll never forget the Jehovah’s Witnesses defending their religious nonsense of having their women use “head coverings”. They use 1 Corinthians 11 as their justification. My Bible states that we have no such custom, their bible states that we have no other custom. Therefore, your use of 1 Corinthians 11 is just as flawed as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can challenge you on those verses, but I don’t have time at the moment.
However, in regards to men and women, did you ever happen to notice that before the fall, there was no such custom of the men ruling over the woman? NO SUCH CUSTOM. Did you hear me? And since Jesus died and rose again, WE HAVE NO SUCH CUSTOM either.
Did you ever happen to read the phrase “FIRST Adam”, and “LAST Adam”?
It was BECAUSE of the fall that men ruled over women. But Jesus RESTORED all things, back to before the fall. Adam did not attain eternal life. WE HAVE IT.
Do we need to sacrifice animals anymore? Who sacrificed the first animal? Who sacrificed the last animal? Who was the last animal? Why was that last animal sacrificed?
I could go on and on about your “religion” in your being “religious”, needing a rule book on how to live your life, when there was NO RULE BOOK prior to the fall.
Ed
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Gary, I answer not for your sake but the sake of the readers. You did not answer my 5 questions. But I take these verses by what they plainly say.
#1 Gen 3:16 should be interpreted literally – he will rule, as one of the bad effects of sin. The things in Gen 3:14-18 is often called “the curse.” It is not God’s ideal will, but his predictions of what will happen.
For example, God said that the serpent will bruise the heel of humanity, not that the serpent will do right if he does so. God said that the man will rule and the woman will desire the man (instead of God), not that they will do right if they do so.
In fact, God desires for the curse to be broken as far as we can, and He breaks the curse, so that even death will be beaten in God’s kingdom.
#2 The man is the head – the Greek word this is translated from is not for leader, but for body part above the neck, cranium, skull, noggin. This had several symbolic meanings in Greek, but scholars testify it never meant leader in untranslated Greek. The possible meanings are discussed on web sites like “God’s word to women”. So I take it that some figurative meaning of head was meant, but not leader. Some think it speak of leadership because the English word has 2 meanings.
#3 You take that text out of context.
Significantly, the Bible teach the woman was made for the man’s loneliness, on his level (the term translated “meet for him” mean on his level, facing one another) – not to give him someone to rule. He (like her, when she was made) already had the earth to rule. She did not need someone to be made for her loneliness, for being the only member of her species – there already was someone when she was made.
(1 Cor 11:2-16 is perhaps the most contradictory passage in the whole Bible (>head means two different things; > is long hair a covering for women as in vs. 15-16, or does she need more of a covering than that, according to vs. 5-6? Or can she decide for herself? – vs. 13 > Gen. 1:26-27 says that women are made in the image of God and Ps. 8:5 and 2 Cor. 3:18 says that all believers have God’s glory, but 1 Cor 11:7 says that she is the glory of man > nature does not teach us that long hair on a man is bad, and many Bible men had long hair – vs. 14.
We should be careful what we take from this passage. Obviously, not all of its apparently plain messages are true.)
# 4 (You are quoting, in quick succession, from BOTH the most contradictory and hard to understand passages in the Bible!. See “Different ways in which “let the woman learn in silence, I suffer not a woman to teach” are understood”, in three parts, here: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/tag/1tim2/ )
Remember that Jesus warned all his followers about exercising authority: “Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you. – Mark 10:42-43 (Also in Matt 20:25-26 and Luke 22:25-26”
If no follower of Jesus should exercise authority, the same thing could be repeated to women/ a woman. Male Christians should not do it either!
#5-6 I already answered about Titus 2, but I sum it up in “Myth: Titus 2:4-5 commands women to obey their husbands, to stay at home, and to love their husbands and children.” here: http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/?s=Titus+2
Many people from groups like Vision Forum also finds “the context of Titus 2: Evi, the Titus 2 keeper and the toy aeroplane”, also among the links on that page, useful.
But I say that to those who will listen, not to answer you. You don’t deserve an answer to six numbered points, as you did not answer my 5 numbered points (even though my points directly drew from your assertions, and yours did not even come from mine. You never showed texts on career success for women, male providers, single women’s roles, or texts that say men are supposed to be leaders. And Titus 2 don’t prove “orbiting”, only that women should be taught skills for home use.)
But you may notice my willingness to take all these texts on what they plainly say, except that one of them is translated badly – it just so happens that the most common word in English for the body part above the neck (the word “head”) share a meaning (leadership) that it did not have in Greek. So I take the plain Greek there.
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Gary Fore,
I must say that I fully agree with how Retha broke this down, pretty academically, too, I may say.
Especially that a woman’s desire will be for man INSTEAD OF God.
And there is BIBLICAL evidence for that in this:
1 Corinthians 7:34
There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
But, really, who can convince Gary of anything? Based on that verse, no one should get married. Period. Right, Gary?
Thanks so much Retha. You KNOW your Bible!!!!!!
Ed
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Oh, Gary Fore,
In case you were thinking that my reference of 1 Cor only pertains to women, in order to give the justification that Man is the SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER THE WOMAN, then look at the PREVIOUS verse, which states:
1 Corinthians 7:33
But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
So, you care for the things of the world to please your wife, just as the wife cares for the things of the world to please you.
So, my advice is that you get divorced as soon as possible so that you can stop pleasing your wife, and she stop pleasing you. Then you and her will start caring for the things of the Lord!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Your all about “RELIGION”, Gary. Relax and stop walking on eggshells, dude!! Get away from religion. I can’t believe that you need a rule book on how to live your life.
Step 1. Wake up
Step 2. Crawl out of bed
Step 3. Put on slippers
Step 4. Walk to the bathroom
Step 5. Lift the toilet seat, because the woman left it down.
Step 6. Put the toilet seat down, otherwise the woman will fall in.
Step 7. Make Coffee.
Step 8. Check your email.
There’s your rules, Gary!! If you forget to make the coffee, your doomed to hell.
I’m sure you can complete the steps.
Ed
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Oh, Gary…
I forgot…the rules aren’t for you…they are for your wife…I get it….You are rule free. Your wife is under your rule.
Well, order your wife to make the coffee. If she forgets, she’s doomed to hell.
You are funny, Gary.
Ed
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Gary Fore– My grandmother, now in Heaven, would have said this, and did say it to a good many like you:
When God wants me to follow your notions instead of following the leading of His Spirit within, He’ll tell me. He won’t tell you.
I was reading my Bible before you were out of short pants, laddie; and don’t you forget it.
Sheesh. Some people can’t bear not to try to push their pet agendas around, I guess….
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You forgot the sandwich, Ed.
I find the rhetorical devices Gary uses so illuminating. First, there is the assumption that I read the Bible as he does, that is, as inerrant text. Second, the assumption that whether or not it is read as inerrant, there is only way to interrogate the text — his way, which he asserts is God’s way. Third, notice how he steps so easily into the role of intermediary between me and God so that in scorning Gary’s interpretation I therefore scorn God? As someone with lady parts, I must submit to his maleness because someone with lady parts who does not submit to that maleness scorns God. Once he declares his assumed God-ordained right to tell me what the Bible says, I am silenced and if I refuse, in the theology according to Gary, I scorn God and am damned. Nifty, huh?
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Ruth’s comments at 9:52 prompt me to observe: Gary Fore probably does not realize what he is doing, but it seems that people like him have an idolatrous devotion to the Bible, Paul, supposed authority, and the theological traditions of men, (i.e., their own interpretations). It is all mind and logic and power and law, except for the law of Love.
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Concerned Dad:
What I see here is a lot of people telling you what you should and should not do. The advice may or may not be biblical. But the point is…they are PEOPLE. Just like Doug Phillips! What will you do if you follow one of them and realize later down the road that THEY were wrong, too? This should be a wake-up call to us all that we are idolaters at heart. We may not be bowing down to a golden calf as the children of Israel did, but we want to put man on the throne rather than GOD. What should you do differently? Start by dethroning man and putting God back on the throne of your heart. Then take a serious look at a variety of Christian teachings and dig DEEPLY into the Word to see what is true! Or, better yet, START by digging into God’s Word yourself!
Personally, I believe many (NOT all) things that DP taught were biblical or valuable in a practical sense…taught by an extremely hypocritical man. But thankfully, I am also having to go back and double-check to make sure whatever teachings I held to truly were biblical. We are all idolaters at heart and I’m sure some things slipped in that I did not fully evaluate against Scripture. I see this as a good thing and it does not shake me…only sharpens me. Just as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:1…”Be imitators of me, AS I AM OF CHRIST.” That last phrase is the key! Keep your eyes on Christ…not on the teachings or random opinions of others, not on the cultural norms (even within the Christian community)…on Christ ALONE!
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It’s amazing how some men try to elevate themselves into the position of being god on earth. If we scorn or disobey men, we are scorning or disobeying God, therefore, they equate themselves as being God. Didn’t Satan once say that he was wanting to exalt himself above God (Isaiah 14:12-17); and also doesn’t the Bible say that the Antichrist will claim to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) ?
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Hi all, I’ve been away and had to catch up on this long thread. I’m DELIGHTED to read Ruth’s comments- I bet Julie Anne isn’t surprised – as they so closely match my own opinions and seem to be contrary to so many other opinions expressed on here.
As a wife, mother of three young career women and one son (who’s married to a nurse), grandmother of (almost) ten, public school teacher and staunch feminist (in my mid-50’s) I have had my FILL of power politics. People would be so much better off accepting people as they are and forgetting about ‘roles’; especially if your inspiration and direction is coming from a 2000-year-old book! Get with the program, folks!
I am hoping that one of the messages readers are getting from this discussion is that education (no matter how it’s obtained) is empowering. For every person. Get as much as you can, from travelling, studying, and critical thinking. Use the brain you’ve got to THINK for yourself.
And thanks, Ruth! I’ll bet Julie Anne is grinning, too.
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Ruth,
The sandwich reminded me of this, from the movie Pleasantville (Where’s My Dinner?):
Ed
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Dave A A, about 24 hours ago, wrote:
“Gary Fore: “As to scripture to prove the roles. Genesis 1-2, many other OT sections make the roles clear,” etc
Well- I’ll give my opinion on these first, I guess.
How many commands does God give to Man in the first 5 chapters of Genesis and what are they? 1 == YOU MAY FREELY EAT OF ANY TREE IN THE GARDEN — Except — not THAT one. Both Moses and God call this, and nothing else, a command, until we get to Noah in Ch 6. Be fruitful and multiply etc is a BLESSING, not a command.
Primary teaching of Jesus from 1st 5 chapters (and Paul as well) == THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE (2 quotes by each). Unity– not roles– of man and woman is the emphasis.
What God has joined together let not man put asunder.
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Thanks folks for the comments – obviously we are all wasting our time, so I will let you have it all. As my pastor said a few months ago, I have stopped wasting my time responding to the blogs for no one wants to accept the authority of Holy Scripture.
Retha cleared up what I was beginning to suspect when she wrote”
“I find the rhetorical devices Gary uses so illuminating. First, there is the assumption that I read the Bible as he does, that is, as inerrant text”
That closes it all out. We have nothing more to discuss because we understand two different authorities. We will have to wait until the next life to find out who was right.
Thanks for all the insights. It has been helpful to understand how those who do not view all of Scripture as inerrant think. Problem is you are on shifting sand. It never stops shifting.
Have good day,
Gary
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Gary Fore,
Not all of us reject the inerrancy of Scripture. What I reject is the inerrancy of your fundamentalist, love free, interpretation of Scripture. You are obviously a heretic. But don’t be offended. None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture. We are all heretics. However, your devotion to a particular understanding of Scripture appears to me to be idolatrous, as evidenced, again, by the fact that it is uniformed by Love. You have placed your faith in right thinking and in mechanical compliance with a set of rules and regulations, as though Paul were the new Moses. I have placed my faith in Jesus, Who is Love, and I read even Paul through the lens of Love. Otherwise, I must accept even slavery as consistent with the perfect will of God.
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Gary Fore: We are all wasting our time? No one wants to accept the authority of Holy Scripture? We have nothing more to discuss because we understand two different authorities? I understand the authority of the living Christ who has given us the very Spirit of God– do you understand some other authority?
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What does this exactly mean: inerrancy of scripture?
The reason I ask is that you could take 2 different translations and the wording can give a completely different meaning.
So, which one is right? Doesn’t one have to be wrong? See where I’m going with this? And who decides which translation is right or wrong? Isn’t it man who interprets that? But wait . . . men are not perfect . . . . so now what?
Please, Gary Fore, before you go, will you address this issue. Thanks!
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The strong statements on inerrancy, and the only defensible position on inerrancy, is that the scripture, in the original writing of it, is inerrant. The problem arises in that we do not not have the original writings, but copies, of copies, of copies, some with marginal notes aparently added into the text of the next copy. And then we deal with translations, and with ancient languages with different tenses and structures than are in our language. An example: In many languages, including those in which the Bible books were first written, the plural form is masculine, even if it refers to a mixed group of one male and 100 females. And the indefinite singular is also the masculine form. So many verses in English refer to a male when the indefinite “one” should be used, or “brothers and sisters” rather than just “brothers”, or “men and women” rather than just “men”.
No responsible theologian believes that the Bible in English is inerrant!!!!
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Julie Anne– I really don’t think it’s a translation issue in most cases. For example, one translation may say all Scripture is God-Breathed and another says it is inspired or God, and one may say Scripture is profitable and another say it’s useful. I believe both of these and much else about Scripture. Cannot be broken– check. Fulfilled– check. Sharper than two-edged sword — well– that’s talking about the Word of God, who isn’t precisely the same, but– check. HOWEVER, NOT ONE translation in ANY verse in my 17+ translation online parallel Bible says Scripture is “inerrant text” or any synonym!
I’m sorely tempted to lose my patience here, seeing as Gary Fore’s comment totally ignored my comment immediately above it, just like the one 24 hours before. Is there some strange SSB program which makes my comments invisible to him?
But then I remember the “Apostles Teaching” of our brother Peter:
“And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
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Inspired OF God, not inspired OR God — freudian slip?
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Dave A A – don’t you think that perhaps Gary Fore is not replying because he CANNOT accept any other interpretation of the Bible than his own? He obviously has his mind made up completely, and it doesn’t matter how logical, well-presented, or sensible the argument is from anyone else, HIS thinking is impermeable. Zealots are like that.
Sorta like I am about women’s rights. .. .smile. . but at least I admit it.
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I will have my richly paid team of tech guys look into this right away, Dave A A. There must be a tech glitch.
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Carmen– I have decided that I now believe the Bible (when *properly* understood) is IMPERMEABLE! The Bible says it is! And that settles it for me! Adding IMPERMEABLE! to my very first article of faith, along with Perspicuous. You know, I actually have some complimentarian (spelling purposefully chosen) leanings with which Gary F might agree… And by kids and grandkids consider me sort of a Patriarch… sigh… Going way back in the comments, two of the primary characteristics of the original Patriarchs, as pointed out by Stephen to jealous men intent on murdering him, were jealousy and murder… sigh…
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So, Gary Fore has a DIFFERENT definition of inerrancy of scripture. He has a different Jesus and a different gospel. His definition of inerrancy of scripture is: Whatever his pastor tells him that it is.
The sky is blue. We know that to be true.
The sky is yellow. We know that to be false.
But if a pastor tells Gary Fore that the sky is yellow, to Gary Fore, that is true…all because a pastor (Who he thinks is the one who preaches truth) tells him.
Gary Fore does not have a mind of his own…he uses his pastor’s mind instead, and he doesn’t question authority. So sad.
Ed
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Ed – Did Gary Fore say his interpretation of scripture comes from his pastor? Did I miss that?
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Julie Anne,
Gary Fore said this in his first paragraph:
“As my pastor said a few months ago, I have stopped wasting my time responding to the blogs for no one wants to accept the authority of Holy Scripture.”
We ALL know scripture is the authority. So, I don’t know where Gary or his pastor originate that argument.
As I said in another of your blog posts, we have Romans Chapter 3 that states that no one is righteous, no not one, when I can find verses that states that many were righteous.
Or, how about that Jesus said that no one is good, and yet, Joseph of Arimathea was good.
It goes the same with this topic about men ruling over women. We do not believe that Gary is properly interpreting the authority of scripture. But we both agree that the Bible is the Authority. However, he is attempting to tell us that we do not believe that the Bible is the authority.
I’ve never read a Christian blog that states that the Bible isn’t the authority. So where does he come up with the argument? IDK. But, if he’s gone, we will never know. He picks and chooses who he responds to, anyway.
Ed
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@Maria:
Like blackmail, shame requires a third party.
“If nobody knows about my sin, I Am Not Shamed.”
(Add “…and Dead Men Tell No Tales” and you have a Middle Eastern Blood Feud all ready to roll.)
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I smell a Hellfire-and-Damnation threat. AKA “God WIll Punish You!”
Apparently God is Gary Fore’s personal Enforcer. (Like the world’s biggest Invisible Stalker spell.)
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@JA:
This means they are Commanders of Holy Gilead in waiting.
Wannabe Christian Mullah Omars, eager to rule by Divine Right over the Perfect Christian Nation instead of the Perfect Islamic Republic.
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