* * *
One of the traps that we got ourselves caught in was looking to religious leaders for guidance on how to raise our children. It’s ok to seek guidance, but we didn’t always check what we learned with scripture. We read a lot of books and went to parenting seminars/classes over the years: Train Up A Child, Shepherding a Child’s Heart, Titus2.com, Ezzo’s Growing Kids God’s Way, etc. We weren’t the only ones. Some of these books/classes were trendy and many churches across the states would jump on the bandwagon. During the mid 1990s, I spent time visiting homeschool forums online and I’d hear of new parenting books/programs popping up all over the country. Next thing I knew, our own church was now promoting the program I had just read about online.
In general, we tried to adopt ideas that worked for our family and leave the other stuff behind. That seems like a balanced approach, but we still got ourselves in trouble and I have had to apologize to my kids for the way I treated them.
It’s interesting, but the Bible really doesn’t have a large amount of verses on child training, yet some of these Christian leaders were able to write meaty books on the subject or speak for hours on the subject, showing us how to parent our children the “biblical” way. Yet how much of what they write or speak about really is in the Bible? It’s really more of their interpretation of the Bible and the application of it. I don’t know about you, but none of my kids were born with an instruction manual and coming from a dysfunctional family, I wanted all the help I could get.
I now get red flags when I see big names being promoted as being the expert on a particular issue. Voddie Baucham is one such pastor whose name is in the celebrity pastor limelight. I don’t quite understand why people elevate certain pastors to the level of celebrity status. It’s high time we start removing people from pedestals and acknowledge that God has given us parents the same ability to discern that He has given them. They were not given a direct line to God any more than we have been given.
From Mr. Baucham’s “about” page at his church website:
Voddie Baucham wears many hats. He is a husband, father, pastor, author, professor, conference speaker and church planter. He currently serves as Pastor of Preaching at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, TX. He has served as an adjunct professor at the College of Biblical Studies in Houston, TX, and Union University in Jackson, TN. He has also lectured at Southern Seminary.
Baucham is a big proponent of homeschooling and his 8 children are educated at home. He and his church also promote family-integrated church model, meaning families worship together and there is no age segregation for Sunday school classes, youth groups, etc.
In this article, we read about his involvement in the Homeschool Movement. The Homeschool Movement is a subculture within the homeschooling community which subscribes to specific teachings and ideologies: Courtship, Patriarchy, Purity/Modesty teachings, Quiverfull, etc. He believes the Homeschool Movement has the ability to turn the tide in recapturing this current generation for Christ. Here’s one quote: “The one hopeful sign I see is that the home-schooling movement is thriving. If there is an answer, I believe that is it.” Along with his support of the Homeschool Movement, Google searches will show that he is a strong supporter of Courtship and Patriarchy. He also does not think adult daughters should leave the home to go to college.
I’m not going to discuss those specific issues, but only bring them up to give a little background information.
What I do want to focus on is his parenting ideas, namely, spanking. Listen to his words. Line up his words with what the Bible says on parenting and see for yourself if this man is speaking biblically or his own agenda. Does the Bible say anything about shy children? Does the Bible say anything about how many spanks a child needs each day? Where does that come from?
* * *TRIGGER ALERT: SPANKING * * *
The following was transcribed from the above video:
Voddie Baucham
November 4, 2007
CORPORAL PUNISHMENT
SPANK OFTEN
Ephesians Chapter 6 Verses 1-4 I want to take you through three things, I want you to see three things, three phases in the training of our children. Phase number one is the discipline and correction phase. These are the first few years of life incredibly important. This is where we lay the foundation for everything else. The discipline and training phase. In this phase is where we are saying to our children “give me your attention, give me your attention.” “You need to pay more attention to ME than I do to YOU, give me your attention.” “The world doesn’t revolve around YOU, YOUR world revolves around ME.” That’s what we need to teach our children in those first few years of their life. Because they come here and just by nature of things they believe that the world revolves around them. And for the first few weeks that’s okay, but eventually we need to teach them that that’s over, that, “The world no longer revolves around YOU. YOUR world TODDLER, revolves around ME, around me.”
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child and the ROD of correction will drive it far from them. In other words God says your children desperately, desperately need to be spanked.
Amen, Hallelujah, Praise the Lord and spank your kids, okay? (laughter from audience)
And, they desperately need to be spanked and they need to be spanked often, they do. I meet people all the time ya’ know and they say, oh yeah, “There have only been maybe 4 or 5 times I’ve ever had to spank Junior.” “Really?” ‘That’s unfortunate, because unless you raised Jesus II, there were days when Junior needed to be spanked 5 times before breakfast.” If you only spanked your child 5 times, then that means almost every time they disobeyed you, you let it go.
Why do your toddlers throw fits? Because you’ve taught them that’s the way that they can control you. When instead you just need to have an all-day session where you just wear them out and they finally decide “you know what, things get worse when I do that.”
THE SELFISH SIN OF SHYNESS
Let me give you an example, a prime example. The so-called shy kid, who doesn’t shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, ya’ know and here I am, I’m the guest and I walk up and I’m saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid “Hey, ya’ know, say Good-morning to Dr. Baucham,” and the kid hides and runs behind the leg and here’s what’s supposed to happen. This is what we have agreed upon, silently in our culture. What’s supposed to happen is that, I’m supposed to look at their child and say, “Hey, that’s okay.” But I can’t do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is that number one, the child has sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it’s in direct disobedience. Secondly, the parent is in sin for not correcting it, and thirdly, I am in sin because I have just told a child it’s okay to disobey and dishonor their parent in direct violation of scripture. I can’t do that, I won’t do that. I’m gonna stand there until you make ’em do what you said.
* * *
Spiritual Sounding Board 
He calls the child selfish, yet he’s just as selfish for wanting (and expecting) a child to respond to him. Grrr…..
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No kidding, Kathi. Does God wear us out and beat us into submission? Yikes.
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I think what stood out to me most what that Baucham tried to replace the sinful tendency of a child’s world revolving around it, with the child’s world revolving around the parent instead. To me, that comes across just as ego centric in the parent, as it does in the child. I have two young boys (ages 1 and 3). Yes, I am the parent, but I try to keep in mind that they have a will too. They have their own thoughts, desires, and wishes. As much as I can, without subverting my authority as a parent, I try to listen and respect what they think and want. How can I teach them how to respect me and others, if I’m not modeling it in how I treat them. Actions speak louder. In the end, I don’t want to teach them that their world revolves around me. I want to teach them that their world, and mine, revolves around God. There is a lot of humility in that. I don’t see that kind of humility in what you’ve shared of Baucham. Thanks for sharing.
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Live out a gospel of violence to your children. Wonderful.
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Baucham seems to be unclear on the concept of grace
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Check out the amount of followers this guy has on FB. Your lowly SSB hostess has something like 150 on Facebook – lol.
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Riot posted Baucham’s recent homeschool conference speaking schedule:
And he has been taking his message to homeschool conventions around the country: 2013 Teach Them Diligently (NE)
2012 TX HS Coalition, CHHC (WA), Teach them diligently (SC), CHEA (CA),
2011 TPA (KS), INCH (MI), CFS (CA), GHEA (GA),
2010 Nevada HS Expo, TCHEN, CHEO (OH), ICHE (IL), MHEA-MS, Valley Home Ed (CA), CHEC (CA), CHEC (CO),
2009 TX HS Coalition, HEAV (VA), NICHE (IA), CHHC (WA), CFS (CA)
2008 OCEAN (OR), CHEC (CO), MPE (MO)
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ugh…
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In this scenario he describes himself as “the guest”, not the regular pastor. What? a guest pastor says “I can’t do that, I won’t do that. I’m gonna stand there until you make ’em do what you said.” and asserts his authority over parents??? “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Gal. 5:22-23 Manners (as a guest) and self-discipline are missing – his “I can’t, I won’t” sounds out of line.
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That’s a good point, Not a Rebel. So not only is he presuming to know what’s best for someone else’s child, he is a guest. I agree with J. Randall Stewart’s earlier comment that it seems ego centric.
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VODDIE, my daughter has never been spanked because I will not act violently against a child and expect her to then trust me or god. Also, she is naturally good and has responded to gentle methods. She has never had a stage, no two year old tantrum, no fearsome four, no teen drama. Instead, we have an amazing daughter who loves god and rocks her world. In the meantime, you wax petty over a child’s normal shyness.
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Ugh, I was just listening to this earlier today.. 😦
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I have wondered how the kids raised with Gary Izzo’s “Growing Kids God’s way” have turned out. It was spreading like a wildfire in the 90’s. The idea was to beat the sin nature out of the kids, and I watched in horror what my friends doing with their toddlers. I have not stayed connected with them since my departure from the conservative Evangelical brand of Christianity. It’s hard to stay connected when it’s next to impossible to have a normal conversation.
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opinemine – that’s the difference between normalcy and what Bauchman portratys. He states “all” kids need spanked. The assertion is that the spanking tool in a parents leadership toolbox is THE tool for discipline and training. However, though it can be A tool, it’s not the only one, and not necessarily the one every child needs. Much depends on the child’s character and tendancies. I would also caution that readers not go the other direction and state that spanking is a tool that no parent should use based off a specific child’s response to other discipilines.
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If Baucham is treating his own children in the manner he promotes in this video, he does not belong behind a pulpit. In my opinion, he belongs behind bars. Assuming he is married with children, and assuming he in fact treats his own children with the kind of violence he is promoting in the video, it would be a good idea if his wife would go to the police. It would be a good idea if she would obtain a restraining order to keep him away from their children. How sad that Christians would actually approve and promote this kind of violence against the weakest of the weak.
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So is everyone saying that spanking is unbiblical?
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Not me. I’m saying that Baucham doesn’t know what he’s talking about, his advice stinks, and parents should ignore him.
Cheers,
Tim
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“THE SELFISH SIN OF SHYNESS”
Try saying that three times fast.
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Julie Anne
So – Who wudda thunk it – Voddie Baucham, is…
“Pastor of Preaching at Grace Family Baptist Church in Spring, TX.”
But? – Did anyone notice much “Grace” in Voddie Baucham’s words?
Seems to me, Voddie Baucham, is another pastor proving the latest theory about…
When you find “Grace” in the “Title” of a Corrupt Religious System…
You will NOT find much “Grace” in “the Leaders” of that Religious System.
You will NOT find much “Grace” in “the Followers” of that Religious System.
Hmmm? New rule of thumb…
Do NOT trust, Do NOT join, Do NOT give money to, any “Religious System”
that has the word “Grace” in their “Title” until…
You have observed “The Elder/Overseers” for at least two years.
And – Know Them…
And we beseech you, brethren, **to know them** (*know = perceive, notice, discern,)
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1 Thess 5:12 KJV
And can honestly say – They are living examples of…
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage.” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind. Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves. Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another.” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves. Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – Being clothed with humility. 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
7 – NOT “Execising Authority” like the Gentiles.” Mark 10:42-43 KJV
Hmmm? Is Voddie Baucham, who calls himself – pastor/teacher/leader…
Taking the name of the Lord thy god – in Vain??? – pastor/teacher/leader?
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Wesley Roy,
While we can debate the point at which discipline becomes violence, I am saying that, in my opinion, the level of violence advocated by Baucham against one’s own children is unbiblical to the point of making any perpetrator who follows Baucham’s teaching worse than an unbeliever. I am saying that the level of violence against children advocated by Baucham in the video ought to be punished by the civil authorities as a felonious criminal offense. I am saying that, in my opinion, any man or woman who exercises, or even agrees with, the level of violence against children promoted in the video is unqualified to serve as a pastor, elder, overseer, deacon, teacher, evangelist, prophet, missionary, usher, or church-building janitor.
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Sounds like he is riffing off of Ezzo’s stuff about shy kids. Here is a quote from Growing Kids God’s Way(target age group starts at 3) :
“Shyness is not an acceptable excuse for disrespect. Shyness itself is not morally right or wrong, but it does have moral limits. It cannot be used as a legitimate excuse, because tempermental strengths and weaknesses do not exempt a child from right moral responses. If someone says “hi” to your child, the correct and minimal response should be “hi”. Such a simple greeting is the minimum required. If someone compliments your daughter’s dress, the response of “thank you” is appropriate.
…
A child’s failure to respond appropriately is not as much a reflection on his or her temperment as it is on the parent’s conviction and resolve to honor age. The minor sin is the child’s willful choice to ignore the adult; the major sin is the parent’s dismissal of the need for such moral training. Respecting age is one of those non-negotiable values that needs to be in the heart of every child.”
Notice the double-speak? While claiming that the character quality of shyness is not in itself a moral failing, actually acting shy is.
Both Baucham and Ezzo need to learn what normal child development can look like.
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Gary W said:
JUNE 18, 2013 @ 7:13 AM
Wesley Roy,
While we can debate the point at which discipline becomes violence, I am saying that, in my opinion, the level of violence advocated by Baucham against one’s own children is unbiblical to the point of making any perpetrator who follows Baucham’s teaching worse than an unbeliever. I am saying that the level of violence against children advocated by Baucham in the video ought to be punished by the civil authorities as a felonious criminal offense. I am saying that, in my opinion, any man or woman who exercises, or even agrees with, the level of violence against children promoted in the video is unqualified to serve as a pastor, elder, overseer, deacon, teacher, evangelist, prophet, missionary, usher, or church-building janitor.
__________
I can’t see the video from my current location so I will have to wait to comment on its exact contents. However, having raised 6 children and currently in the process of raising 11 children I can say that every child is different and that spanking does work. There is no standard model that takes away the responsibility to know your child. I did not learn this long before I became a Christian from parents and grandparents who had successfully raised generations of children.
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Wow
Baucham says…
“Hey, ya’ know, say Good-morning to Dr. Baucham,”
and the kid hides and runs behind the leg…
…the child has sinned by not doing what they were told to do…”
Well, why NOT hide??? This guy Baucham wants this kid spanked every day…
Seems like this kid who hides from Baucham
is smarter, has more desernment, then his parents. 😉 😉 😉
If the parents were smart, had “Biblical” discernment,
they’d be hiding from Baucham also. 🙂
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“Well, why NOT hide??? This guy Baucham wants this kid spanked every day…
Seems like this kid who hides from Baucham
is smarter, has more desernment, then his parents.”
What a great statement. Full agreement.
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Spanking has its place and purpose – mostly with small children, and only use sparingly and more to get their attention than to harm them. That’s not what he was advocating. He was speaking about letting them know he will use this as a tool to remind them WHO is in control. That the world revolves around HIM, and you better listen. He will create fear, and not proper respect. Children can discern ‘who is in charge’ without all that. The man’s a tool, and he is all about control.
Advocate disciple after a couple of weeks of life? You can tell someone else – like his wife raised his infants. I remember nursing, and being bit. I took my finger, and tapped their nose. It wasn’t meant as discipline, but more distraction. The biting stopped as well. Some strange individuals act like babies do that out of malice, and that so stupid. You don’t tell a 2 month old that the world revolves around me – not you. They can’t understand that type of message. They aren’t capable yet.
A shy child isn’t shy due to sin, or malice either. My brother was extremely shy, and my parents did use tactics to help him. There were times they also knew if they pushed it – there would be trauma for him. Parents of a shy child are capable of figuring out which is which. Voddie acts like he is such a victim of all these ‘non knowing’ parents, and he is end all of knowledge. If you have a very small child, and HUGE man – and Voddie is a big guy – he will be intimating to some children. He needs a spanking for arrogance if they thinks its so effective – please WEAR him OUT where they man can grasp common sense and human decency!
I mean Seriously!
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The issue of spanking is certainly a hot topic; it has been hot for a few years. I think one big reason for its controversy (other than the physical striking of a child) is that it deals in a very personal way how an individual raises their child. To an extent, every parent has the right to raise their child how they see fit, without the input or oversight of a third party (assuming that there are no instances of abuse or neglect). Included within this is how we discipline our children. So whenever somebody raises issue with how we discipline our children, we tend to take this as a personal insult on our parenting skills and we cry that our rights are being jeopardized.
Perhaps the most used Bible verse when it comes to disciplining children is Proverbs 13:24, which states, “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.” The saying, “spare the rod, spoil the child” is often a misquotation of this verse. I think that many parents, Christian and non-Christian alike, but especially Christian, will take a verse like this and apply it only literally. They take it to mean that if you don’t spank your children, then you are not disciplining them.
There a numerous problems with this approach. First, it assumes that every child responds in the same way to the same form of discipline. Children are not robots cut from the same mold. They have different personalities, temperments, and are also prone to different sins to different degrees, all just like adults. To believe that all children will respond the same way removes the individuality of the child.
Secondly, it assumes that spanking is the best method. This ties directly into the reason I stated above, but some children will respond much better, and more quickly to say time-outs, than to spankings. Parents who refuse to use these other methods will likely miss out on a happier, healthier relationship with their child because they will feel like all they are doing is constantly spanking a disobedient child and getting nowhere when they could use another method and everybody will be happier.
Thirdly, they assume that if you are not spanking, then you are not disciplining your child at all. This simply is not true. They are completely misunderstanding the very idea of discipline. Discipline is NOT punishment (though it may incorporate punishment). To discipline your child is to give them proper and clear boundaries for behavior, as well as consequences for both following and not following those boundaries, in order to teach them appropriate and inappropriate behavior towards themselves and others so that they can empathize and interact with the world around them in a healty way. Consequences for following proper boundaries include things like praise, acknowledgement of good behavior, rewards, etc. Consequences for not following clear boundaries can include things like loss of privaleges, time-outs, grounding, etc. The idea is that discipline is guidance. You guide your child in how to behave. Many parents do this to great effect without ever once spanking their child.
Fourthly, out of all forms of punishment, spanking, in my opinion at least, is the form that most easily leads to abuse; I think in most families that use spanking, it already is abuse. Let me say here that one form of punishment that my parents used with me was spanking. They didn’t have to use it terribly often, and often times, especially the older I got, they used other forms that worked better for me at that age. Overall, I was a pretty well-behaved child. Even though I was spanked, I never felt then, nor do I feel now, that I was abused or unloved. They always spanked me while calm, they told me why I was being spanked, they never spanked more than they said they would, they never spanked so hard as to leave bruises, they never punched, kicked, or hit me in ways that would be obviously abusive, they always told me they loved me afterwards, and they always hugged me afterwards. Furthermore, affection wasn’t lacking in the times when I wasn’t being spanked or punished. I feel very blessed that I had parents who could control their anger and who could also show affection. Personally, I could not call what my parents did “abuse” under any definition. I think that parents like mine are more the exception than the rule, however.
Usually, when I see or hear of somebody spanking their kids, they do it in a flash moment of anger where they lash out. They may lose control of themselves and strike harder than they intend to. They may strike the child in a more sensitive part of the body (back, stomach, legs, face). They may not explain while the child is being spanked. The child may not realize that they had broken a rule in the first place. They may be subjected to continuous spanking. All of these things, in my opinion, are abusive to one degree or another. It is so easy, when in the moment, when you are angry, to haul back and spank your child harder than you intend to. It is so easy to spank them repeatedly when you stop thinking because you are so angry with them. Anger is not itself a bad thing; however, it does cloud your thinking and judgement. It is when you are in that state of mind that you are more prone to lash out in a physically abusive way. If you are already using phyiscal punishment, then you are that much closer to over-stepping the bounds and physically hurting your child. Now, I should state that other forms of discipline can also be or become abusive, though few that I can think of become abusive as quickly.
Fifth, the overwhelming majority of children are incapable of deep, critical, logical thinking. Those that are, are only capable of it do a basic level. To many, maybe most, kids, when they are spanked, they just know the physical pain. They don’t see the love behind it. While a child may also have difficulty seeing the love behind other forms of discipline at the time, being struck is much more closely associated with a feeling of being violated, wronged, and abused, and it is a feeling that can last and can scar a person.
I really wish more adults would use their critical thinking skills too. Why does Proverbrs 13:24 have to be taken ONLY in a strictly literal sense, especially when we can see that there are many much more effective ways to discipline children than spanking.
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Brian – You are absolutely right – these guys borrow ideas from each other that are not even biblical. It’s the bandwagon mentality and so when a parent hears the same idea repeated by another “respected” Christian leader who teaches parenting, it shows them that it must be right. They buy into it hook, line, and sinker.
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Wesley: You mentioned that you cannot see the video at work. FYI – The entire video transcription is posted beneath the video. You can’t hear his voice inflection, but at least you can see the words.
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Amos – You better believe I saw “Grace” in the title of his church. Isn’t that crazy coincidental?
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On the shyness aspect, I have major problems with Bauchman’s line of thinking. I am an introverted person. Some would say that I am shy. I don’t go out of my way to seek out other people for conversation usually unless there is something I have to discuss with them. While I do believe it is polite to acknowledge somebody that acknowledges you, this is something that must be taught to a child, and I certainly don’t see this as a grave offense, certainly not one deserving of spanking. I would even go so far as to say that with a child this is something that shouldn’t get a punishment at all, but rather reminders that it is polite to say “hi” back. I see from some Christians though this mentality that introvertedness is wrong, that we need to “break out of our shells,” “speak up more,” “find a mentor to talk to,” as if our introvertedness is a weakness to be overcome. Bull-flipping-hogwash! My introvertedness is a part of the personality that God gave me and it has its own strengths, just as your extravertedness has its own weaknesses. Stop trying to fix me! I’m not broken, I’m just different than you! Sorry, but stuff like that irritates me. Rant over.
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JoeJoe mentions how, to a child, spanking can be closely associated with a feeling of being violated, wronged, and abused. Along these same lines, I would suggest that a child may be inclined, sometimes accurately, to associate spanking with parental rejection. Maybe the pertinent issues have less to do with particular methods of discipline and more to do with whether the overall parent-child relationship is based on fear bonds or love bonds. But now I am way out of my element.
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I think that the association of spanking with abuse is even more heightened in cihldren who have come out of absuive of neglectful homes. My wife and I are in the process of adopting a baby boy. In order to be approved by the state to be adoptive parents, we had to go through a litany of training, interviews, and meet many requirements. One thing that is required of us, is that any child under our care, so long as they are a legal ward of the state, may not be punished via spanking. Some may object to that regulation outright, but you must think about the circumstances. First off, the child is still legally a ward of the state, so you must follow their rules. More importantly, I think, however, is recognizing the kind of home enviroment that most foster kids come out of. You don’t get put into foster care because your parents simply lose their temper from time to time or can’t always feed you the most healthy meals. The parent is generally neglectful, abusive, or both. If a child comes out of a home where they were physically punished in an abusive way, they are more than likely going to associate any physical punishment you use as a foster or adoptive parent with abuse as well because it is what they know. It doesn’t matter if you do it in the most loving way in the world. If you hit spank them, when they were used to being hit before, you are doing nothing but hurting them.
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http://www.gotquestions.org/spare-rod-spoil-child.html
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What has not been discussed at any length is the potential advantages of a child’s shyness. Children are often shy and fearful of people with whom they are not familiar. This keeps them close to the parent (hiding behind his mother’s skirts) an act of self-protection. What happens when a parent spanks a child and forces him or her to go against this natural self-protection? The little one is more vulnerable to predation and we have seen too many incidents of the church being a target for predators because of these teachings.
In my opinion, the Bible neither prohibits nor does it condone spanking. It certainly does not mandate it. I have a Psych minor and my area of interest is Neuroscience and there are many compelling reasons to not spank a child and it bothers me that people think its ok to hit a young child (it also bothers me to read people advocate for parents spanking older teens as well.)
And, yes, when I see the word Grace in a church name, all sorts of sarcastic thoughts visit my mind.
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Darrell, that was a sad sad link. A few words that are so commonly misapplied are, as predicted, misapplied in that link. First, discipline does not mean beat with a stick. Second, the rod is symbolic of discipline as in the recurring, “the rod of discipline” The rod is a comfort (if it was the woodshed type switch, it would be instant stress rather than comfort. Finally, although I am impressed the author knows the word Inspired is literally God-breathed, he does not know the phrase train-up is literally dedicate and is translated dedicate any other time it appears in scripture. Now, substitute dedicate for train up and the general tone is gentle and more relational.
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We experienced this attitude at our former church. Our son was three when we left there and was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. I have come to realize that a mind that is having trouble processing the brightness of the lights, the loudness of the background music, the various distractions of multiple conversations going on around him, the stink of multiple colognes and perfumes and the presence of many bodies moving around him could not have understood “say hello to so and so” as an order to be obeyed or disobeyed. To say he would be in sin not to say hello is just ridiculous. How I wish these “leaders” could find some compassion in their hearts!
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The word “rod” indicates a thin stick or switch that can be used to give a small amount of physical pain with no lasting physical injury. A child should never be bruised, injured, or cut by a physical correction. The Bible warns that parents should never abuse the power and authority
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My understanding of this switch is one that if swung to hard would break before reaching the child. And while you are looking for such a switch, you would have time to think and calm down
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I think people opposed to spanking are opposed because they cannot control their tempers and they think everyone else is the same. Some also oppose spanking because they have been exposed to it done incorrectly or out of the wrong motivation. Spanking is one of the many options God has given parents in the training of their children. Invalidating this proven, biblical method among many simply because some people have temper problems or use the method improperly is not wise.
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Wesley Roy, how I control my temper never entered my thought processes on spanking. In any case, I didn’t spank my kids so perhaps it’s a moot point. They’ve both grown up to be leaders in the body of Christ, despite the lack of corporal punishment that Baucham thinks is so necessary.
The man should be barred from all pulpits, conferences, video equipment and never allowed in the company of children.
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“Spanking is one of the many options God has given parents in the training of their children. Invalidating this proven, biblical method among many simply because some people have temper problems or use the method improperly is not wise.”
Where in the Bible is this?
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For anyone who has suffered “Spiritual Abuse”- and “church” is a dirty word
Thabiti Anyabwile of “The Gospel Coalition” posted this yesterday.
“Should We Stop Saying, “The Church Hurt Me”?”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2013/06/17/should-we-stop-saying-the-church-hurt-me/
Sounds to me like he is putting some of the blame on the victims.
And protecting his domain…
The 501 (c) 3, no-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation, the IRS calls church.
But then again, I could be wrong – Because “The Church Hurt Me”
And I’m probably mis-understanding a “Senior Pastor” who would never think to
“Exercises Authority” like the gentiles – Or “Lord it over God’s heritage.”
(Much Sarcasm) 😉
—————-
And at the end he has his
“My Simple Plea to the Person “Hurt By the Church”
1. Take your pain to the Lord…
2. Take your heart to the ones who actually offended you and seek reconciliation…
3. Stop saying, “The church hurt me.” It’s affecting your heart…
4. Do realize that not every church hurt you and people are not “all the same…
5. Live in hope. Your Lord is also Lord of the Church. He cares for your brokenness…
—————
I’d offer some other possibilities to Thabiti – But he has banned me from his blog. 😉
I already do NOT trust pastor/leader/reverends – Many Reasons…
Or the 501 (c), Religious Corporations, the IRS calls church.
And Thabiti Anyabwile is NOT helping in my recovery. 😉
Maybe some one here might have something to add to
“Should We Stop Saying, “The Church Hurt Me”?”
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I see dedicate as backing off and never being involved. Where I see train up as being lovingly involved, nurturing, instructing not as beating down
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About the Thabiti Anyabwile blog – “Should We Stop Saying, “The Church Hurt Me”?”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2013/06/17/should-we-stop-saying-the-church-hurt-me
Here is someone who understands – A wonderful response rom Arthur Sido…
Or perhaps people say that because…they have been hurt by “the church”. Your solution seems to be suck it up, shut up and pay up. What we call “the church”, a religious organism that bears little resemblance to what we see in Scripture, is unfortunately like many institutions in that it is primarily concerned with self-preservation so people who don’t fit in or who ask the wrong sorts of questions that rock the boat find themselves on the receiving end of wrath from those with a vested financial incentive to maintain the status quo. You can stick your head in the religious sand and pretend this doesn’t happen but that doesn’t change the fact that a great many people truly have been wounded by “the church” and the defenders of the status quo and many of them have walked away from organized religion.
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Voddie was tagged in my tweet and has joined the conversation on Twitter:
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The fact that some parents don’t apply the biblical principal doesn’t invalidate the principle – rhis or any other one. What is not in the Bible, is the ever so popular notion that we are all born innocent and just need to have our self-esteem constantly stroked in order to become wonderful obedient children who become self-actualized adults. That’s pure psychobabble.
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We were also taught by the ministry in our former church to begin, at two years of age, spanking our children when they didn’t respond to “hi.” My opinion now on people who insist that a child be beaten for not acknowledging their existence is that they are probably NPDs, or have some personality disorder. Seriously.
We were so inundated with the Homeschool Movement’s(TM) methods on spanking. Right now we hardly spank at all. I guess you could say we are detoxing. Funny, but my kids are no worse than they were before.
Thank you Hannah Thomas, JoeJoe, and everyone else who shared a more graceful approach.
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Born4Battle: I read somewhere that Voddie is over 6’3″ and is around 300 pounds. Picture this impressive man “wearing out” a little toddler by spanking all day.
I’m not talking about psychobabble. I’m not talking about self-esteem. I’m talking about bully behavior. Is that the way a loving father treats his child? Is that how our heavenly father treats us? Give me a break!
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I don’t necessarily have a problem with people who spank their kids as a form of discipline. I do have a problem when they say it is the “biblical” way to discipline children, discounting other methods of discipline which in general, work better than spanking anyway. I also rarely see spanking used in a loving way. I do know of some people that show real love even while spanking, but they are the exception rather than the norm.
And B4B-I agree about the self-esteem stroking. Kids NEED boundaries, they NEED to be told “no”, they NEED to know that not everything will go their way or even should go their way. Kids NEED to be let down AND be taught how to handle it when they are.
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Let me give you an example, a prime example. The so-called shy kid, who doesn’t shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, ya’ know and here I am, I’m the guest and I walk up and I’m saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid “Hey, ya’ know, say Good-morning to Dr. Baucham,” and the kid hides and runs behind the leg and here’s what’s supposed to happen. This is what we have agreed upon, silently in our culture. What’s supposed to happen is that, I’m supposed to look at their child and say, “Hey, that’s okay.” But I can’t do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is that number one, the child has sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it’s in direct disobedience.
So you beat Fluttershy until she’s as forward as Rainbow Dash and/or outgoing as Pinkie Pie. (Or as winsome and shallow as their G3 namesakes.)
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JoeJoe we all know the passages referencing spanking in Scripture. You have supported my point that people oppose spanking because they see people doing it wrong. We raised well adjusted and productive people for centuries with child rearing methods that included spanking. To invalidate that based on methods that are producing quite different results is unwise.
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“Let me give you an example, a prime example. The so-called shy kid, who doesn’t shake hands at church, okay? Usually what happens is you come up, ya’ know and here I am, I’m the guest and I walk up and I’m saying hi to somebody and they say to their kid “Hey, ya’ know, say Good-morning to Dr. Baucham,” and the kid hides and runs behind the leg and here’s what’s supposed to happen. This is what we have agreed upon, silently in our culture. What’s supposed to happen is that, I’m supposed to look at their child and say, “Hey, that’s okay.” But I can’t do that. Because if I do that, then what has happened is that number one, the child has sinned by not doing what they were told to do, it’s in direct disobedience. Secondly, the parent is in sin for not correcting it, and thirdly, I am in sin because I have just told a child it’s okay to disobey and dishonor their parent in direct violation of scripture. I can’t do that, I won’t do that. I’m gonna stand there until you make ‘em do what you said.”
__________
Nothing in this quote says anything about spanking and no where in VB’s comments does he say anything about beating. This illustrates my point that those who oppose spanking in many instances do so because of their own faults.
I don’t know VB but I do know that he is not getting a fair and gracious treatment of his statements. Some of you may need to preface your name with “grace” to fit the stereotype accepted here.
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Ok, so Voddie Baucham and I had a bit of an exchange on Twitter (https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/346823140036472832)
He says I am not understanding the context and also am not understanding his use of “wear out” referring to wearing out a toddler by spanking all day. He says he’s a “black southerner” and that’s where that expression comes from. He’s offered to send me his recent book which I found to be a very nice gesture. I may take him up on that.
I’d like to see if we can get better clarification on what he means. If you have other questions I can send along to him, let me know.
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Wesley Roy – From my reading and study, the scripture is neutral on spanking – neither outright condemning nor condoning it. And I guarantee you my conclusion has nothing to do with any anger issues I have or with others who may be “doing it wrong”.
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Born4Battle: I read somewhere that Voddie is over 6’3″ and is around 300 pounds. Picture this impressive man “wearing out” a little toddler by spanking all day.
“ME MAN! ME *BIG* MAN! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”
I’m not talking about psychobabble. I’m not talking about self-esteem. I’m talking about bully behavior. Is that the way a loving father treats his child? Is that how our heavenly father treats us? Give me a break!
If you’re a Hyper-Calvinist or into Worm Theology, YES. “For God Hates Sin With Such A Perfect Hatred…”
And that theology will spill over into your own behavior as you Become More Like God. If your God is harsh, autocratic, and abusive….
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JA I tried to explain to someone on twitter this morning that “wear out” has many different nuances in the African-American culture and most of them have nothing to do with physical contact. When I read his words and all day spanking did not come to mind since that is unfeasible but giving the child multiple opportunities to repeat the task all day so they know compliance is not an option.
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Brian
JUNE 18, 2013 @ 11:23 AM
Wesley Roy – From my reading and study, the scripture is neutral on spanking – neither outright condemning nor condoning it. And I guarantee you my conclusion has nothing to do with any anger issues I have or with others who may be “doing it wrong”.
_____
Brian when I read the words written in Scripture and apply the natural meaning to them based on their usage I arrive at the fact that Scripture does condone spanking. It does not mandate it but it condones as part of the rearing of children.
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Wesley Roy – I am from the South and if some parent says in relation to a child that they are going to “wear them out” then you know corporal punishment is imminent and the session is not likely to be a short one.
If you look at the context of Baucham’s quite I don’t see how spanking is not a natural reading of the text :
“And, they desperately need to be spanked and they need to be spanked often, they do. I meet people all the time ya’ know and they say, oh yeah, “There have only been maybe 4 or 5 times I’ve ever had to spank Junior.” “Really?” ‘That’s unfortunate, because unless you raised Jesus II, there were days when Junior needed to be spanked 5 times before breakfast.” If you only spanked your child 5 times, then that means almost every time they disobeyed you, you let it go.
Why do your toddlers throw fits? Because you’ve taught them that’s the way that they can control you. When instead you just need to have an all-day session where you just wear them out and they finally decide “you know what, things get worse when I do that.”
The way I read it is, you give your toddler a chance to comply, they disobey and/or throw a fit. You spank and give them a chance to comply again. And this goes on and on because you are convinced that spanking is a command from God and one of the few ways you may discipline your 3yo.
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Do know how you reading it Brian but the experience of raising 17 children has not produced a toddler that will not comply. Some of my children are very strong willed but they are taught from the very beginning that they have to obey without exception so for me “wear out” would mean doing the same thing until they are sick of doing it and understand it is better to do it once than multiple times.
I am sure my understanding is as valid as yours………right Brian?
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Well, if we’re misunderstanding Baucham’s context and intent, how many others who listen to his teachings misunderstand as well?
You know, years ago a minister told my husband’s father to spank his boys until he drew blood if necessary. He told him that his boys should believe that he might possibly kill them! About four years ago that same minister stood up in a Sunday service, and said, “We will never tell you to use corporal punishment.” I’ve listened to ministers lie through their teeth on this subject to avoid any responsibility for the outcome.
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Care to explain Proverbs 23:14? Anyone?
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BeenThereDoneThat
_________
What the guy told your dad was wrong but that has no bearing on what VB is saying. Again validating my second point that those who oppose spanking have experienced someone doing it wrong.
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I generally don’t misunderstand his teachings. Having a wife with an African-American heritage I might also be conversant a bit more than the average honkie with his ‘cultural’ overtones. Proverbs 23:14? Anyone? Perhaps it would be more profitable to dig in and study/discuss what the Bible does say about raising children, than just bashing who we think we don’t like and are all screwed up.
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JA, It might do you well to investigate exactly how God has disciplined his children throghout the ages. Just sayin’
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Wesley Roy – Everyone reads based on their own individual context so in that sense there are really no “invalid” understandings. However, Baucham meant something specific by what he said which may match yours or mine or be something different.
The issue is when you say “that ‘wear out’ has many different nuances in the African-American culture and most of them have nothing to do with physical contact.”. That does not match up with my experience of the way people use the term and so I feel like it’s valid for me to push back on it. And I am sure that Baucham is aware of the physical punishment meaning of “wear out” so if he means something else he needs to clarify.
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Julie Anne,
I see from your Twitter exchange that Bauchman is using the old taking-it-out-of-context ploy. In my experience, pastors do this to avoid answering legitimate points of concern. Its a way of putting you down (by implying your knowledge is deficient), while at the same time shutting you down (by refusing to actually respond to your point). What pastors don’t realize is that, when they use this ploy, it is just evidence that they don’t want to deal with the fact that they are either ignorant or in error.
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Born4Battle,
You state, “Perhaps it would be more profitable to dig in and study/discuss what the Bible does say about raising children, than just bashing who we think we don’t like and are all screwed up.” Seems you are judging our hearts. I recall your having admonished the rest of us for judging hearts. What gives?
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Brian VB is also aware of the fact that someone can talk to you and “wear you out”. He is also aware of the fact that someone can put you to work and “wear you out”. He is also aware of the fact that someone can get on your nerves and “wear you out”. I could go on and on but I am sure you get the picture. Your experience of the use of the term is not normative it is just your experience and as valid as mine or VB’s but in this instance VB’s would actually define the term not yours or mine.
Brian you do realize that no one would suggest or attempt to spank a child “all day”. So that understanding is invalid. Having come from a generation where “Good” spankings were the norm I naturally see things differently because spanking worked then and continues to work when done properly. What people are advocating here is the equivalent of outlawing circular saws for carpenters because some have cut off their fingers with them instead of teaching the carpenters how to use the saw. The problem is not spanking but people who don’t know when and how to spank.
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Gary W said:
JUNE 18, 2013 @ 12:07 PM
Julie Anne,
“I see from your Twitter exchange that Bauchman is using the old taking-it-out-of-context ploy. In my experience, pastors do this to avoid answering legitimate points of concern. Its a way of putting you down (by implying your knowledge is deficient), while at the same time shutting you down (by refusing to actually respond to your point). What pastors don’t realize is that, when they use this ploy, it is just evidence that they don’t want to deal with the fact that they are either ignorant or in error.”
____________
Or the person could be taking it out of context………right?
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I agree, Brian. I’ve lived in the South for a number of year. I’ve been around the African-American culture. It’s pretty well-known that in the African-American culture, a good ol’ fashion ass-whoopin’ is pretty common.
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I’m glad I haven’t heard a preacher mention Deuteronomy 21:18-21 in child raising.
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JA I don’t use those terms but spanking is still an acceptable method to be used in child rearing in the African-American culture. I would think that would not invalidate the process. The fact that it is not as acceptable in the Euro-American culture should not invalidate the use of spanking either. I have also never seen a child spanked all day in order to elicit their compliance but I must confess that compliance is usually not optional.
As for the use of “wear out” in the African-American cultural context. I think that VB and I may have a better grasp of that thought VB’s context is the only one that matters in this instance.
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WR – Actually, my understanding of the term is normative for the Southern culture I grew up in when the context is disciplining your child. Which is not “spank a child all day” but does mean your going to get a good whoopin’. The normative meaning is not, in this context, is that you are worn out from being tired or that someone is getting on your nerves.
VB does get to define the term(has he done that yet?) but if he does not know how it can be taken in the middle of his talk about spanking then he is a careless communicator.
I certainly wish that noone would suggest spanking a child all day – as in get spankings throughout the day until compliance is evident. But it has been done before and I am willing to bet it will be done again. Not saying VB promotes this, although the quote above certainly implies it. I would need to read more of his stuff to know for sure.
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Wesley,
I think you may have misunderstood the point that I was trying to make. I am not saying that spanking should not ever be allowed. If done correctly, it is a viable form of discipline. Just because it is a viable form, however, does not mean that it is the only form or even the best form. Furthermore, saying that it is THE biblical way to discipline your children negates all other forms of discipline which in most circumstances, tend receive better results anyway (when done correctly). Spanking a child is not NECESSARILY abusive, nor would I say that parents who spank “can’t control their temper.” I would say that most parents I see that use spanking, shouldn’t because they don’t do it in any kind of loving way. Also, if I can get equal or better results using non-physical punishments, I would rather do that than hit my child. They are less likely to miscontrue that as me beating them than if I spank them (even if I do spank them in a completely calm and loving way).
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I jokingly suggested mine might need a whipping (which doesn’t always mean a beat down) to the school counselor and she went nuts. First she felt the need to qualify herself by reminding me of her psycho, something degree, then priceded tongue lash me to the chair, and any response on my part was met w threats of jail and of a reminder from her of her superiority over me by way of her psycho degree and position and since I was Christian I was not allowed to defend it or I would go to jail and if I ever even jokingly suggested it, I would go to jail. So I shut up, took my tongue lashing and threats, then let her “tell” how to correct the problem with my child without question, signed the paperwork and left, happy not to be going to jail. Glad she is gone from that school. FYI we have never spanked her and that is still the case to this day and she is rather good kid, punishment is always by taking away certain privelidges)
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Brian, VB is the only one that can define the context of his usage of a term. Unfortunately, when one is accustomed to communicating with a certain audience when the audience changes there may be misunderstandings. This is especially true when the audience has a natural hostility towards the speaker.
Thanks for the clarification JoeJoe.
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Darrell,
Your story reminds me of the time my sister denied her son dinner as a punishment for not doing his homework. She met the teacher the next day to discuss her son’s problem with finishing school work. When my sister casually mentioned that she had denied her son dinner, the teacher replied, “Mrs. ________, I’m going to pretend I didn’t hear that. We are supposed to report things like that.” (This teacher is African-American, by the way. 🙂 ) I don’t believe my nephew has missed a meal since then.
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Darrell your patience is admirable. I don’t think I would have been that patience with her considering her psych degree means nothing to me.
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Gary, that deserves no comment. Your hearts hae nothing do do with it. There is a lot of Christians bashing Christians in here and ver iittle (if any) discussion of what the Bible says. It’s the facts. That there are heart motives behind all the bashing, goes without saying,but I didn’t judge anyone. I can however read and assign meaning to words on a page. See ya. Would you like to take a stab at that Proverbs passage? It has a lot to say, especially when coupled with other sections in scripture that tell us how to treat our children. It all fits well together.
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Wesley said:
Wesley – I have been in homeschooling circles for over 20 years and can assure you that his remarks are not farfetched among that group. Their teachings echo each other. Keep in mind that VB is a popular speaker at Christian state homeschool conventions.
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JA we have been homeschooling since we were in Germany in 1990 and neither my wife or I were Christians or knew anyone who homeschooled. In all that time we have never know anyone to spank a child all day. I have also never known anyone to have to resort to that to get a child to comply with their instructions. A parent that has to contemplate such a thing has failed to begin instructing their child at the proper time in life and produced a bad situation for themselves and their children.
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Wesley – I think you should sign up to get on the homeschool convention speaker circuit. Maybe you could teach them a thing or two. You’d definitely meet their full-quiver criteria 🙂
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Wesley,
You ask, “Or the person could be taking it out of context………right?” My experience is that pastors accuse me of taking things out of context when they want to put me down (by implying my knowledge is deficient), while at the same time shutting me down (by refusing to actually respond to my point). It would be difficult to know whether I ever was actually taking something out of context since there has never been a single instance where a pastor has gone ahead and shown me how I was doing so. Even when I have pressed them to show me how I was taking something out of context they would not do so. It seems I was always expected to accept the fact that the pastor had spoken, and that the conversation was over.
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I asked earlier where in the Bible spanking is mentioned, and someone mentioned Proverbs 23:14:
“Punish them with the rod and save them from death.” (NIV)
Putting aside the issue with using any single Bible verse as a definitive command for all people for all time, I think it was mentioned earlier that “rod” in this case doesn’t necessarily mean something that one would use to hit something (or somebody) with. I think “rod” in this case is more symbolic for punishing in general, not spanking in particular.
Are there other Bible references?
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Born4Battle,
You challenge us to address Prov. 23:14: “If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.” ASV. Well, I submit that under the New Covenant we are saved from Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Hell by Jesus—not by the corporal application of any rod.
Your point might have been better made with Prov. 13:24: “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.” ESV. Even if this passage is referring to using a rod to spank, whip, beat, etc. (which is subject to question), I can find no Scripture to support the notion that this passage should be applied to justify regularly spanking a child 5 times before breakfast, as advocated by Baucham. Certainly I can find no support for the notion that this passage should be applied to justify spanking a child all day long in order to just wear them out. And I’m sorry, but spanking was the clear, unambiguous and only context of Baucham’s assertion about an all-day session to just wear a child out.
Finally, I submit that, under the New Covenant, the emphasis has shifted from the coercive force of the rod to love and gentleness. “What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?” (1 Cor. 4:21, ESV). Unless I am missing something, there is simply no passage in the New Testament sanctioning the use of corporal punishment to discipline children, though I stand willing to be corrected on this last point.
Winning with Love is a better way than driving with violence. If you attempt to drive a child into submission with violence, you risk driving them away—emotionally, physically and, worse yet, spiritually.
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Actually, Gary, a point is well made with both passages, but a slightly different point. If I think what? Spanking (the rod) is violence? If you understood the principles being applied with the two passages, you would not even suggest that spanking is violence. You still also fail to understand V.B.’s point NOT being driving a child into submission, but more about the rebellion this born into the heart of a child needing to be dealt with..
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RMR, You don’t believe the Bible means what is says?
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“A parent that has to contemplate such a thing has failed to begin instructing their child at the proper time in life and produced a bad situation for themselves and their children.”
Wesley
This sounds like you’re saying that all children will respond as expected if parents follow “a certain” prescription for training their children. I’m not sure if this is what you are saying but that’s how it comes across to me. This thinking seems presumptuous.
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Born4Battle,
Proverbs refers to the use of a rod, not a paddle. If you strike a child with a rod, with sufficient force to hurt, it will at minimum raise a welt. It may also bruise and break the skin. This is violence. I reject it as inappropriate to the New Covenant. I also reject, as inappropriate under the New Covenant, the Old Testament commandment to kill a child who curses their parent. Ex 21:17. I believe that, not just Paul, but Jesus Himself, showed us a better way, which is the way of love.
As to your assertion that Bauchman is not talking about driving a child into submission, let me quote him: ” In this phase is where we are saying to our children ‘give me your attention, give me your attention. You need to pay more attention to ME than I do to YOU, give me your attention. The world doesn’t revolve around YOU, YOUR world revolves around ME.’ That’s what we need to teach our children in those first few years of their life.” And: “The world no longer revolves around YOU. YOUR world TODDLER, revolves around ME, around me.” Readers may decide for themselves whether this is a call to drive a child into submission to the all powerful tyrant of a father figure. Whatever, in my opinion it is all quite beyond odious. I do not judge Bauchman’s heart. I judge his teaching.
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For anyone interested, there are other understandings of what the Bible infers regarding children and discipline. The Anglo man’s interpretation of what the Bible says (even if that is what has been done for hundreds of years) may not be what the Bible “clearly” says. The Bible, by way of translations over thousands of years, has been adjusted to the Anglo/European/American vernacular. These cultures have interpreted the Bible right out of it’s culture and context.
http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2013/06/true-eastern-wisdom-is-coming-west.html
In case you are wondering, I am a Christian and I believe the Bible is inspired by God. I just don’t believe that we always have a complete and/or correct understanding of what things really mean in Scripture. We (Anglos/Europeans/Americans) have often just parroted the orthodoxy that has preceded us.
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“I don’t think I would have been that patience with her considering her psych degree means nothing to me.”
Someone spent enough time studying how the human mind works and has studied how to work with children and that means nothing to you? I would suggest the people that mock and belittle someone’s degree might benefit from taking a basic Psychology or Developmental Psychology course.
Knowing normal child development is good because you know what is normal, have reasoned explanations, and able to pick your battles.
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Kathi, exactly why do you think it is selfish for a parent to want a child to respond to him? Isn’t that the way God intended the parent child relationship to be?
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Here is a better link to an article regarding the issue of children and discipline.
http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2013_04_01_archive.html
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“RMR, You don’t believe the Bible means what it says?”
I didn’t say that. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, but that doesn’t mean the meaning of any given verse (or group of verses) is clear cut and obvious. We have to consider the historical and literal context of everything that is written. Otherwise, stoning adulterers and being forced to marry your rapist would be considered legal.
In case of any uncertainty regarding interpretation, I turn toward the commandment of Jesus about loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. What does that look like? It depends on the situation.
I’m not even saying spanking is always wrong. I’m only saying that the Bible doesn’t require it of every parent for all time, and that it isn’t necessarily the best option for every parent and child.
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Hi Julie Anne – Best wishes from Jerusalem. Thanks for raising this topic.Please let me know if you’d like me to join the conversation.
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Samuel – You are always welcome to join in. Come on in, the door is wide open! 🙂
I noticed your links were referenced in the comments. Did you see?
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Oh, and Hi to Julie Anne, from a fellow high school choir pianist. 🙂
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I am going to post a link to a study I authored many years ago when I experienced a paradigm shift in my parenting. I am not going to debate and only post this out of love for my brothers and sisters in Christ. The reason I won’t debate it, is because my mind is already firm in my belief on this topic and anytime you go against the “norm” or refuse to conform to traditionally held views or slay sacred cows… you are debated.;) http://www.freewebs.com/suffer-the-little-children/therodorshebet.htm
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Link shows that the late Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. did not spank his children – http://samuelmartin.blogspot.co.il/2012/05/christian-theologians-who-advocated_08.html
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Do I detect a brony in our midst?
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An indepth study on the true meaning of the “rod”
http://www.freewebs.com/suffer-the-little-children/therodorshebet.htm
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