Doug Phillips: “Disowns” Former Vision Forum Executive Assistant to President, Peter Bradrick, Calls Him “Destroyer” When Confronted about Sins

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Peter Bradrick, former intern, former Executive Assistant to the President at Vision Forum Shares Publicly That He is “Disowned” and Declared as “Destroyer” by Doug Phillips of Vision Forum

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Peter Bradrick, a man closely connected with Doug Phillips and Vision Forum for nearly one-third of his life recently opened his Facebook page for public viewing.  Take a look at Bradrick’s employment history to see how involved he was with Phillips and ventures with which Phillips was closely affiliated:

Source

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Those who are familiar with Phillips and his teachings can easily see that Bradrick has learned the lingo very well.  Here is Bradrick in action:

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Peter Bradrick was an intern and poster child for Phillips and Vision Forum.  He was groomed for the business ministry.  He married Scott Brown’s daughter, Kelly in a very public wedding.  Scott Brown has been a long-time friend of Doug Phillips.

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Who is Scott Brown and What are His Connections with Doug Phillips?

Scott Brown is on both the board of the National Center for Family Integrated Churches (NCFIC) and Vision Forum Ministries.  NCFIC was originally part of Vision Forum ministries and later became an independent ministry in 2004, under the directorship of Brown.   There is no doubt how influential Phillips was to Brown when reading the Brown’s bio at the NCFIC site.

“Over the years, my sensitivity to these problems has only heightened, until several years ago, I set about to align with men who were sounding the alarm of truth and offering Biblical answers to the problems we are facing. Doug Phillips was one of those men, and Vision Forum was one of those ministries which the Lord has providentially raised up at this time in history to rebuild our Christ honoring foundations, one family at a time.

“The work of the NCFIC is about family reformation, and this dovetails perfectly with where the Lord has placed my own life and the life of my family. I am so thankful for Doug Phillips, Jim Zes and Don Hart who are courageous enough to pour out their lives for the truths that we must stand on. —Scott Brown (Source)

Brown was one of the board members during the time Vision Forum Ministries board announced that Vision Forum Ministries was closing.  Months earlier, possibly around the same time Phillips either stepped down or was removed from his teaching elder position at Boerne Christian Assembly, Brown posted an article, “What Does True Repentance Look Like?.”   What did he know and when?

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Peter Bradrick Breaks His Silence

On November 26, 2013, Peter posted a comment that he was going to go offline and focus on his family:  “after a long and weary season of business failure and more recently significant shock and disappointment regarding a very tender matter close to me.”

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Bradrick shares more in his next Facebook entry dated November 27, 2013.  This comment is worth reading.  The first paragraph describes his relationship with Phillips as his mentor and spiritual father and Bradrick’s commitment to the Phillips family, work, mission.

He then wrote about the intention of a group of men who were “bosom brothers,” close friends, to lovingly confront Phillips to plea for true repentance and restoration.

 What for us was a tender, emotional, mission of mercy and plea for true repentance was met with something, and by someone I never could have imagined. Instead of being received as the “wounds of a friend” (Proverbs 27:6), I was formally disowned and declared to be a “destroyer” to my face.

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This following screenshot is a comment that came in from Joe Morecraft beneath Bradrick’s Facebook note.  Pastor Joe Morecraft was on the September 20-29, 2013 Vision Forum Ancient Greece Tour with Phillips as a teacher.   I’ve read that Morecraft unexpectedly took over Phillips’ teaching responsibilities during the trip.  Joe Morecraft responded to Bradrick via his wife, Becky’s Facebook account:

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Screen Shot 2013-11-29 at 9.23.42 PM
Source

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Bradrick’s account completely discounts the words of repentance we read from Phillips’ public statement and it sure looks like Morecraft concurs with Bradrick in the Facebook comment.

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Does this the first public acknowledgement that Phillips was not showing the fruit of repentance as Phillips suggested?

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If Phillips were showing signs of repentance, surely these two men would have acknowledged it.  Yet, instead what we see from Bradrick and Morecraft is profound sadness.  This sure seems to indicate that the public statements of Phillips professing his heartfelt repentance have been fraudulent.

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So what else is new under the sun for spiritual abusers?

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Those who have followed this blog for a while can see this pattern fits completely with so many other signs of abuse of power:  shunning, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, different public personality than in private, etc.

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This is a very sad situation for those who have followed Phillips and Vision Forum Ministries.  My prayer is that they will not only see Phillips for who he truly is, as a spiritual wolf and abuser, but will also see the fruit of the rigid and legalistic Patriarchy practices that this group has promoted and influenced throughout the years affecting multitudes of families.

Those who have been following Phillips and Vision Forum must understand that in order for Phillips to yield this much authority, he had to twist scripture to elevate his presumed position of authority as husband, as business owner, as teaching/elder (or pastor).  This presumed authority was taught to families across the Nation and now there is a whole generation of young adults and families reaping the rotten fruit of his bad teachings.

While some are saying, “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because Phillips sinned, that doesn’t mean his view of Patriarchy and Biblical family is bad.”  I am strongly challenging that notion.  As a long-time homeschool mom, I have personally witnessed the destruction and am in contact with many who share their sad stories (here’s one:  In the Wake of the Doug Phillips Affair, a Mother Grieves and Seeks Our Prayers and be sure to read the comments).  It is time to call this movement what it is:

RUBBISH!

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EDITORIAL NOTE: The last paragraph above was edited November 30 to remove a double negative that made the meaning confusing.

191 comments on “Doug Phillips: “Disowns” Former Vision Forum Executive Assistant to President, Peter Bradrick, Calls Him “Destroyer” When Confronted about Sins

  1. ““For one thousand years, this principle has guided Western civilization. Simply stated, that principle is this: the groom dies for the bride, the strong suffer for the weak, and the highest expression of love is to give one’s life for another. The men aboard the Titanic recognized their duty because they had been raised in a culture that implicitly embraced such notions. Only by returning to these foundations can we ever hope to live in a society in which men will make the self-conscious decision to die so that women and children may live. This is the true legacy of the Titanic.” Douglas Phillips

    When those who champion “women and children first” hide behind smooth words instead of “suffering for the weak”… When the strong take advantage of the weak, and then turn them out like so much garbage… When the strong seize the lifeboats and leave the weak drowning in the icy water… it leaves no choice for men of God other than to rise up and oppose them when they discover the truth. Woe to those that do not.”

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  2. Isn’t that something? I remember when Vision Forum got started and I wondered why they were so obsessed on that story. In an earlier Phillips post, I put up a picture of a sinking ship just because of that.

    And all of this business about women and children first. Yea, woman first for his own needs, and his own wife/children get the backseat and abandoned. Pretty sick.

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  3. I remember that photo. Does this mean that Phillips basically abandoned the woman and left her to sink? Yet he talks about repentance????? What kind of repentance is this? And this after his Repentance sermon! >:-(

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  4. WFTT2 asks what kind of repentance is this after he preached a repentance sermon?

    This trait is very common for spiritual abusers. The psych term is called “projection.” They preach on things they are struggling with the most. If they preach against sexual immorality, they are probably struggling with sexual immorality. If they preach about true repentance, they probably haven’t exhibited true repentance.

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  5. I still think that sermon was given in an attempt to appease the victim, to hopefully prevent his adultery from being made public. And it backfired.

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  6. from WFTT2’s link:
    another interesting comment on Peter Bradrick’s page:

    “Bob Renaud: This is why we did what we did brother. We were not going to sit by and allow the weak to be victimized. I still believe in this doctrine even if my mentor and friend rejected it.”

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  7. If Phillips stepped down from the pulpit last February, does anyone know when the perverbial **** hit the fan? Seems like 10 months is a long time for all this to become public knowledge (and how long had it been exposed before Phillips stepped down from the pulpit??) and I think this is most likely the tip of the iceburg. And if Phillips had stepped down from preaching responsibilities last February, what in the world was he doing teaching on an Ancient Greece tour in September which he apparently had to stop midstream due to something???? Do I have the dates incorrect?

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  8. Julie Anne, thanks once again for keeping us informed about this. I read Bradrick’s FB page and it sounded to me like he was deeply shocked by the way Doug Phillips responded when that group of men (including Bradrick) went to confront him. I’ve read many many accounts of abuse from victims of domestic abuse, and these words of Bradrick’s have the ring of authenticity:
    “[we were] met with something, and by someone I never could have imagined. Instead of being received as the “wounds of a friend” (Proverbs 27:6), I was formally disowned and declared to be a “destroyer” to my face.”

    So Phillips accused Bradrick. Accused him of being a ‘destroyer’. This is blame shifting; and it’s utterly typical behavior for an abuser/ The exact evil the abuser has done is exactly what he accuse the innocent persons of doing (the primary victim, secondary victims, or allies of the victim. Let’s put it plainly: Doug Phillips has destroyed Vision Forum and the welfare of countless people. He is the destroyer. But he accuses people like Bradrick of being the destroyer.

    I would like to say to Mr Bradrick: now that you have seen that Doug Phillips is someone you could never have imagined, maybe you might give some thought to the possibility that your understanding of evil has been somewhat shallow. Perhaps you will consider doing some serious study about the psychology and methods of sin. I can recommend a good sermon series on this exact topic by Ps Jeff Crippen.

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=crc&keyworddesc=&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Domestic+Violence+and+Abuse

    I shall submit this suggestion to Mr Bradrick at his FB page too. :)

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  9. Also, please do not think from what I wrote above that I think Mr Bradrick’s views on patriarchy and theology are admirable. I do not. I simply wanted to point out the typical abuser language and tactics that Doug Phillips used (as reported in Bradrick’s FB post.)
    I agree with you Julie Anne that the big thing needed is for all those who have followed VF-type principles to wake up to how damaging and and extra-Biblical those beliefs really are.

    I believe that some of the people who have been part of VF and other such groups may indeed wake up, come out and get their minds cleaned up from all that wonky teaching. And the way to encourage them to make that transition is to respectfully invite them, question them, nudge them, and graciously suggest other options to them, to help them see the need to re-calibrate their thinking right down deep.

    Usually the false beliefs people hold that are most binding and hampering are held at the pre-suppositional level. Getting people to see their presuppositions (bring them to the light) and then re-evaluate them, is an incremental task.

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  10. After suffering through much of the Bradrick “call to arms” video posted above I was shocked to hear this (about minute 6:00)…

    “The Gospel is the applicability of the word of God to every issue that confronts the word of God”

    This is not what the Bible calls the Gospel. My definition comes from 1 Cor 15 and has nothing directly to do with the issues Bradrick talked about.

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  11. That video was painful to listen to, but would have made an excellent drinking game had it been available way back in my much younger years…down a shot each time Peter says “battle lines”, and thankfully you’d probably be passed out before it reached the halfway point.

    And the first battle line is……..drum roll please…………FEMINISM!
    >:-o
    Didn’t see that one coming!!

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  12. Joe Morecraft responded to Bradrick via his wife Becky’s Facebook account .

    Am I the only one who thought that was weird? A Major League Patriarchy guy sends a message through his wife’sFacebook account?

    The only explanation I could come up with is that Morecraft must be too manly and patriarchal to even have a Facebook account.

    He sure knows a lot about Reformed rap, though!

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  13. Barbara: Thanks for pointing out the signs of abuse. If you read other sites which promote patriarchy, you will read discussion about the “sin” – – you know, the adultery issue, but not much is said about abuse. Peter Bradrick and everyone who was under his authority in any way was used to further his agenda. This is an abuse of power and control. In other words, everybody at Boerne Christian Assembly, many outside of the church in Phillips’ sphere of influence were spiritually abused.

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  14. NuttShell: Welcome!

    Seems like 10 months is a long time for all this to become public knowledge (and how long had it been exposed before Phillips stepped down from the pulpit??) and I think this is most likely the tip of the iceburg.

    You are absolutely right. Those of us on the outside think how could this have stayed under wraps so long? Someone usually will spill the beans Think of this one: how could a 10-year relationship have remained under wraps? 2 words: power and control. The 10 month issue is understandable when you realize how powerful Phillips has been for years in his business dealings with people. Whomever called him out has had to do things very carefully with all their ducks in a row because you can be sure Phillips pulled no stops at threats. I wonder how many people he has sued besides Jen/Mark Epstein and Joe Taylor, and how many we don’t know about that were settled?

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  15. I agree with you Julie Anne that the big thing needed is for all those who have followed VF-type principles to wake up to how damaging and and extra-Biblical those beliefs really are.

    I believe that some of the people who have been part of VF and other such groups may indeed wake up, come out and get their minds cleaned up from all that wonky teaching. And the way to encourage them to make that transition is to respectfully invite them, question them, nudge them, and graciously suggest other options to them, to help them see the need to re-calibrate their thinking right down deep.

    You can read the comments on Bradrick’s wall – – the focus is on Phillips and the affair, but people are quick to defend Phillips’ legacy. Folks, the legacy of Phillips was based on fraud. It was never about God (even God was used), it was about building Phillips and his empire by using people. “Interns” is another word for: free help. Yet to be an intern at Vision Forum was a highly respected honor.

    It is going to be very eye-opening for people when they realize they were being used as a pawn: Phillips “legacy.” I’m pretty sure the focus on the Titanic’s “save women and children first” motto was a foundational part of this so-called legacy. It sounded very noble and honorable. Years ago, I remember thinking about that Titanic hype wondering why Phillips was resurrecting this old story as if there was something new that he had grabbed hold of that had never been said. That should have been a warning flag right there. This is a method of spiritual abusers. They suck you in emotionally by stories. To have men be that honorable and noble to save woman and children first was an appealing thought: Yes, I do want to raise my boys to protect and honor women and children.

    The reality is that this man whose platform was to protect women and children is a complete fraud. If his home was the Titanic, Phillips walked off the ship, into a smaller and safe vessel for himself, abandoning his wife and 8 children and did not look back. He left his wife and children on a sinking ship – – the sinking ship that HE crashed into an iceberg. That’s some captain! Captain Phillips did this with his church and business as well.

    Folks, if this man’s words drew you into an idea of godly family, godly fatherhood, godly motherhood, he employed methods to draw you in. His whole foundation was skewed. You have been sold more than just “godly family.” Please look around and read the stories of families who have been shattered because of this man’s teachings. You must discard everything about this man and his teachings and get back to the basics in God’s Word. It’s going to take some time to erase the old tapes, but it will be so worth it.

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  16. And the first battle line is……..drum roll please…………FEMINISM!

    The Feminism thing is huge and it makes sense. In the Patriarchy movement, wombs are very sacred. If women are “distracted” by outside employment, gaining independent thinking, they are less likely to have the number of babies required to subdue the earth. Reconstructionism relies on women and their wombs in bearing children to further their agenda. (Now doesn’t it make sense why Kevin Swanson was all about those embedded fetuses in wombs – – – it’s like the womb is holy ground for these peeps. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, find Kevin Swanson in categories on my sidebar and you will find articles.)

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  17. Can’t wait for the “bombshell” story TW Eston has promised early next week. Is anyone able to confirm that Doug’s young female victim is now safe? Since her family was caught up in this movement does anyone know whether they are offering her support or would they be inclined to blame and shame? I hope she’s all right.

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  18. Am I the only one who thought that was weird? A Major League Patriarchy guy sends a message through his wife’sFacebook account?

    The only explanation I could come up with is that Morecraft must be too manly and patriarchal to even have a Facebook account.

    Yea, isn’t that odd? Who knows with these guys!

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  19. Dottie: I’ve heard different accounts of where the female victim is. Most say that she is safe. What that means would probably depend on how entrenched her support system is involved in this Patriarchy movement as you wisely alluded.

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  20. Speaking of the Titanic story I remember one Christian leader share how some “men” dressed up as women to be able to get on a lifeboat. This leader shared that catastrophes like this bring out what the real character is of people. Sadly rather than women and children first it sounds like Doug Phillips is one of those that had he been on the Titanic would have dressed like a woman to get on a lifeboat.

    Leaders like DP and C.J. Mahaney can teach all they want about “true repentance” but sadly won’t practice it when it applies to them.

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  21. The story of the Titanic is a powerful one of HUBRIS – look up the definition and you’ll see that it fits Doug Phillips to a ‘T’. We all know where the ship ended up.
    I wonder if, when he related that story, he recognized the foreshadowing? Oh, the irony.

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  22. That video was painful to listen to, but would have made an excellent drinking game…

    I know what you mean, Pam. I barely got through it myself; I felt a lot like those kids looked at the 3:00 mark. But I was curious to find out exactly what they are… The 27 Things That ALL “True Christians”™ Must Hate And Fear.

    I hope Mr. Bradrick has improved his public speaking skills in the past 3 years.

    More than that, I hope he’s realized that Phillips’ whole philosophy of politics and family values was pure self-aggrandizing fluff. At the very least, I hope he sees now that the real enemy is not ‘out there’. Whatever ‘battle lines’ (ugh) we think there are in society, the most important front is within our own minds and hearts. If we as Christians fail to treat each other and our neighbours with love, compassion and understanding, no other battle will really matter. We’ll have already lost the war.

    So ironic… Bradrick was so obsessed with all those Enemies Of The Gospel ‘out there’, he failed to see the wolf right in front of him…

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  23. Serving – yea, wasn’t that battle talk over the top? Remember CON’s church website used to be filled with soldiers/battle garb. t feel like I need to do a post comparing Phillips and CON – – all of that battle talk, using fear to intimidate. This story cannot remain about the “affair” – that wasn’t really affair because it wasn’t “Biblical” junk.

    I don’t know that I ever mentioned here that Chuck O’Neal said he’d go OT on someone. I have heard this same story verified by other sources. I think Phillips and Chuck O’Neal have a few things in common as far as abuse tactics.

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  24. In response to Joel Frederick at 3:50 AM who said, “If your view of what the Gospel is is skewed, the rest of your ‘world view’ will also be off of true,” Julie Anne @ November 30, 2013 @ 7:20 AM said, “Exactly! Throw it OUT!”

    I think I know what your drift was, Julie Anne, and wouldn’t it be great if only it were that easy — out with the bad, in with the good!

    But the reality of recovery from spiritual abuser and doctrinal dupers is that we find it will probably be a long recalibration and an oh-so-slow shift with many incremental changes along the way. But that’s how it goes for most of us as we seek to return our trajectory to a “True-Gospel North.”

    These off-kilter systems are like … well … *systemic* poison that affects our entire being. It’s like taking a bucket of muddy rocks and water, and trickling in clean water slowly to get rid of the guck. It takes time, but things will get clearer and cleaner over time.

    The men, women, and children who have been used by Doug Phillips may find themselves jump-starting that re-journey with just one shocking question, noodling its way through their heart: “This man misused his platform for teaching, and there was no integrity between what he said and what he live — what else in his system is false?”

    Those who have been on that road realize that discernment often comes in the aftermath of such bitter betrayal and deep disappointment. But that takes time after the initial disorientation of whatever shocking circumstances woke us up to our having a theology on auto-pilot, or otherwise out-sourcing our spirituality to people we put too much trust in.

    Many of us who are survivors eventually find ourselves exploring other questions beyond “How did this happen?” and “What’s false in their system?”. These new questions can be equally disturbing and requiring us to further learn to discern and change the direction of our trajectory. For instance: “What in me made/makes me susceptible to falling prey to people like Doug Phillips?”

    And even those who have profound and complex systems of theology, or even neat and tidy ones, with answers for every question before you ever ask it — may need to consider how their views and worldview sets people up for abuse. How do the underlying assumptions potentially lead people astray? (That has been a theme emerging from the 400 comments on the recent thread about Chalcedon, and other systems that claim Reconstructionism as their core, and systems that Chalcedon disclaims as being other than real Rushdoonyism.)

    None of this means we as victims-turning-into-survivors were stupid or are hopeless. Spiritual abusers who apparently get away with their tactics for a long time know how to work the system and trick every kind of person. So maybe … just maybe … our having been taken in by a huckster now means that our journey with Jesus will be more dependent on the Holy Spirit and not on sets of rules and regulations and FAQ lists. It will be more real, and transform us toward true Christlikeness. There will be constructive change beyond the destructive pain … but Recovery 101 starts where we find ourselves — just starting to process the revelation of dis-integrity of the abusers and their systems of support, and starting to figure out some of the why’s for it, and the wherefore’s of what we shall now do.

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  25. Julie Anne states:
    “Those who have followed this blog for a while can see this pattern fits completely with so many other signs of abuse of power: shunning, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, different public personality than in private, etc.”

    I am extremely proud of how meticulous your research is in identifying the numerous abuses within all facets of the patriarchal movement. Even for me, it’s an eye opener. Brain washing is the phrase that comes to mind with these leaders. They are inventing spiritual wars where there isn’t a war to begin with, and fighting against the freedom that Jesus established for all Christians. In my humble opinion, homeschooling should equate that of what is taught in public school, and nothing more. Reading; Writing; Arithmetic; US History, including why we are proud to be an American, which also includes the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, instead of badmouthing the US Government as being the evil force, or empire; World History, and yes, P.E., Home Ec, even for boys as well as girls. Your blog reveals the evils within those who claim to have great knowledge and wisdom, leading God’s people astray to fight in spiritual wars that are non-existent to begin with. They invented the war. Therefore, we fight back!!

    Ed

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  26. “I would like to say to Mr Bradrick: now that you have seen that Doug Phillips is someone you could never have imagined, maybe you might give some thought to the possibility that your understanding of evil has been somewhat shallow.”

    What an interesting thought, barbara. Something to dig deeper on. Most likely this guys view of what is evil was defined for him in detail for many years. And it was around the whole culture war scenerio. But the whole time he was actually following evil and making an idol of it. I sure hope he sees that and goes back to square one on everything he thought was truth. But I rather doubt it.

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  27. The Titanic analogy itself is deeply flawed. While within the classes, men sacrificed for women, women of the lesser classes were much more likely to die than the men in first class. The men did NOT sacrifice their lives “for the least of these” – they did so for their own kind, and no more.

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  28. Giving Peter Bradrick the label of “destroyer” seems ironic in light of the fact that God used this term (in Daniel 9:27) of the avenging force He sent against Jerusalem for her wickedness: in the literal Hebrew, “upon the wing of abominations cometh destroyer” (wing = summit or height of abomination, the extreme far point of wickedness, triggering the divine sending of the destroyer to level the wicked city).

    I have to add that Brad/FuturistGuy’s following comment was very powerful and so very true: “None of this means we as victims-turning-into-survivors were stupid or are hopeless.” I wholeheartedly concur, although former spokesmen have not been consistent with this outlook, as acknowledged elsewhere.

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  29. Pingback: Peter Bradrick, Former Executive Assistant to Doug Phillips, Speaks Out on Being “Formally Disowned” and “Declared to be a Destroyer” | H . A

  30. Pingback: Compelling Evidence that Vision Forum Inc. is Closing, Liquidating and Doug Phillips “Show” of Repentance Revealed | Spiritual Sounding Board

  31. There has been an interesting disconnect so far between the rank and file VF followers and the leaders of the patriarchy movement.

    Over and over again on the forums and social media, rank and file types have defended DP and his repentance, offering various excuses, etc. I thought at the time the silence from the other leaders was deafening – no paeans, defenses, or even comment (except from Doug Wilson, who is notably an outsider to this group as he has his own empire). I suspected at the time that this meant that there were “bad facts” that were much worse than the initial reports, and this has proven to be the case.

    As more information has become public, we have seen various high-profile insiders take more aggressive public positions, perhaps beginning with Scott Brown and the “apostasy” sermon. They appear to have come to the conclusion that many outsiders already held – DP is likely not a lapsed saint, but a raging hypocrite, and always has been.

    So what I wonder is, how long, if ever, before this filters down to the rank and file and the True Believers?

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  32. “So ironic… Bradrick was so obsessed with all those Enemies Of The Gospel ‘out there’, he failed to see the wolf right in front of him…”–Serving Kids in Japan

    Yes. I’ve seen this in my own spiritual abuse case. It’s why I was disappointed after they pried the wicked pastor out of his office, that those surrounding him were not fired, as well. They did not have what was needed to protect the sheep from the wolf. They had supported and empowered him, and aided in the abuse by carrying out orders and absorbing the lies. They needed to step down and detox.

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  33. I am close to this mess. The fallout HAS caused me to reevaluate things Biblically, one “tenet” at a time. I like your post Brad FG. I’m specifically thinking of college and employment for our daughters when they reach that age, where previously we would only consider college online. I would welcome Biblical support, articles, links etc. besides the mere reference of Lydia etc. as we grapple with these issues. Forgetting Doug for a moment, the realities of modern day college life for young ladies can be devastating.

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  34. LadyLydia, From a mere financial standpoint, college makes almost no sense, financially or morally. Ask financial guy Dave Ramsey or go to his FB page. There are so many many people who have bemoaned their waste of time and money in that respect. That is a whole other line of *beliefs*…thou must have a college degree or thou wilt die a worthless person. (not true) I do know what you mean about reevaluating things. It IS OK to look out for each other and be a family IN LOVE. the thing about DP is that a counterfeit has a shadow of the truth. Trust God! Be at peace in the one true God who loves you!! :)

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  35. Thanks A B Lever! Love your name. :-) I remember when our kids figured out the meaning of the authour’s name for the Pearables stories!

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  36. LadyLydia … glad you found something I wrote of help.

    In case you take a notion to browse other stuff I’ve written on spiritual abuse, systems, and recovery, the link below is to an “index” post. There I list the various articles on my *futuristguy* blog, and give a sentence or two or a few so you can figure out what might best answer the issues you’re interested in at the moment. The articles are a mixture of entry-level (mainly in Part 4) to intermediate. A few things are advanced.

    Anyway, perhaps there will be something there that helps with guidance for a pressing need. Meanwhile, may your search and research be blessed as you continue to build discernment and decision-making for a more hope-filled future …

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/index-spiritual-abuse-recovery-posts/

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  37. AB Lever, Ramsey’s never been my cup of tea, and recently has unfortunately shown himself to be interested in lauding the wealthy rather than ministering to the poor: http://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/20-ways-that-dave-ramseys-blog-turned-my-stomach-today/

    College can be a very smart choice for many reasons. I wouldn’t have my job without it, and neither would a number of people with whom I interact on a daily basis. It’s not just a nice preparation, but a vital one in our fields.

    Cheers,
    Tim

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  38. You all may have already done this but Scott Brown’s departure from his former church shows his character also. It seems he was making money on the side with Vision Forum unbeknownst to the other leaders in the church. Interesting stuff.

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  39. Pingback: Vision Forum: Peter Bradrick Speaks | Why Not Train A Child?

  40. A B Lever: As of Oct 2013, current unemployment rate for high school graduates: 7.3%; those with a college degree: 3.8% (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm). Median earnings for those with college degree: $55,700 for FT; those with high school diploma: earn $21,900 LESS. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/21/education/21college.html?_r=0) And numerous non-financial benefits as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brazen-life/why-your-college-degree-h_b_3000592.html

    I don’t believe college is for everyone but in today’s society, people need to get additional training beyond high school. And, I believe that college was just taboo for women and not men in the DP groupies. If men were not “allowed” to attend college, please enlighten me. :-)

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  41. There are so many many people who have bemoaned their waste of time and money in that respect.

    Well, A B Lever, I’m not one of them. Although I haven’t “used my degree”, so to speak, I’d never have been able to work in Japan without it. And college opened my eyes up to the rest of the world, in ways which I might never have experienced just staying at home.

    I hope you didn’t mean to suggest that attending college betrays a lack of trust in God. I certainly don’t mean to suggest that anyone without a degree will “die a worthless person”. But it does open doors, and increase the options for a young person to make his or her way in the world. I’d hate to limit those options for anyone on ideological grounds.

    Have a good evening everyone. I’m off to church. :)

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  42. Carmen, you are so right. I have been rewatching Titanic documentaries all week. So many parallels can be made!

    Unrelated: Did you all know that Aussie billionaire Clive Palmer is building Titanic II, a ship that will be a near-replica of Titanic?

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  43. Lady Lydia – I think you should be encouraging your girls to pick something they are interested in and go for it! Here’s why – with a college/University education they’ll have far more choices in life, they’ll meet lots of interesting people whom they’ll form life-long ties with, they’ll be stimulated in many areas of learning, and they’ll find out how much they DON’T know -it’ll turn them into lifelong learners. I certainly have never regretted my University education and neither have our four children. I’d be encouraging them to take their pick – there’s many interesting opportunities out there. You’ll get to learn new things, too!

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  44. Carmen, not anti-education here at all. We are all life long learners in our family. I have the token B.A. and then went on to get a post graduate degree. I question the means by which one gets the education today and from whom. We only have to read the news today to see countless foolish college “professors” spouting a worldview we do not share and girls who go missing, get date raped or worse. :-(

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  45. This talk of education reminds me of that young girl in Afghanistan that was shot and left for dead for wanting and advocating education…by who? Religious nut jobs. This is the land of the free. American Religious whack jobs restricting education to girls and women need to move to Afghanistan and wear a white shirt with a button up vest, and join the Taliban.

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  46. I went to a private Baptist College. It was great, and I got 2 BAs in 4 1/2 years. There were no instances of crime or rape on campus or in the college town. But this was back in the late 70s.

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  47. Lady Lydia – all I can tell you is that we have three girls and one son who went off at 18 to Universities (one clear across the country) and not one of those calamities befell them. We brought them up to make good, sound choices. I’m sure you’ve done the same.

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  48. A B Lever,

    For the most part I’m going to cast my lot with both you and Tim when it comes to assessing the value of post-secondary education. I agree that no college degree is a guarantee of a high income. On the other hand, college education, often including advanced degrees, is a prerequisite to an increasing number of careers. In my state you even have to have a college degree, with a specific major, to become a real estate appraiser. An increasing number of employers are requiring a bachelors degree for almost menial jobs. It seems to be something of a weeding strategy, and it maybe not a bad one.

    Even if one is not interested in a career that requires a college degree, a well rounded liberal arts education can prove invaluable. The economic value of a liberal arts education may be indirect, but it is not insignificant. Note that I am calling for a “well rounded” liberal arts education. One can be obtained at a public university, but the challenge will be to avoid indoctrination parading as education. Christian liberal arts colleges will also tend to come with indoctrination — just with a different set of values. No matter what, the rule is test everything, hold on to what is good and true. c.f. 1 Thess 5:21. Understand that the goal is an increase in the overall quality of life, not necessarily including higher income. Maybe it would be better to say that the goal is to lay the foundation for the acquisition of that wisdom which comes only as one learns to apply knowledge to experience.

    My own thought is that one is not truly educated until such time as they have developed a firm conviction of the depths of their own ignorance. The opposite also holds true. I risk giving offense, but I have observed again and again that the very people who are most unyieldingly convinced of their own intelligence, often exhibiting what comes across as thinking themselves omniscient, also tend to be the least educated. A good formal education, if free from over-much indoctrination, will cure such tomfoolery in a hurry.

    So, get as much education as possible, but be careful, and be selective. Know your goals, and recognize that no diploma, even for the professions, is an automatic ticket to a good income. In fact, it may be that pursuing an education primarily as a means to earning money is, in reality, a sure ticket to lifelong dissatisfaction.

    And keep Jesus, who is truth, at the center of it all.

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  49. LadyLidia,
    My brother in law discussed an issue with me about a year ago. Isolation from the “world” is not a good thing. We are in the world, like it or not. As the great song goes, Our Children Are Our Future. You teach them well, as they grow, and you release them to the world to make their own decisions adult decisions. If they know right from wrong, they will make the right decisions, tripping on the way. Let them trip, and fall. They will get back up again. So there are professors out there that have an agenda. So what? Will your children be influenced? If so, it is still their decision. There are Christians on the left, and there are Christians on the right. Our society has changed since the 60’s big time. But this is still America where our children can make a difference…if we let them. All this religious crap needs to be far removed. Christianity teaches us and our children how to deal with the world while in the world. It doesn’t teach us to isolate ourselves in our little religious cliques, stocking up on canned goods, and waging a fictitious war on women and girls. Be FREE!

    Ed

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  50. You are so right, Ed. It is shocking when homeschool kids who have been isolated get in the real world when some have been prevented from even talking with anyone outside their church and family. It was not uncommon for me to read on homeschool groups that homeschool moms would not allow their children to play with their neighbors – even if they were Christian – if they went to public school. Umm . . . at what point are they going to be allowed to interact with those outside their community?

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  51. Chapmaned24….., you’re not a college professor are you?:-). I’m not sure if you are talking to me, but it’s NOT a way to keep the conversation going. Logic and compassion are warranted…….

    This talk of education reminds me of that young girl in Afghanistan that was shot and left for dead for wanting and advocating education…by who? Religious nut jobs. This is the land of the free. American Religious whack jobs restricting education to girls and women need to move to Afghanistan and wear a white shirt with a button up vest, and join the Taliban.

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  52. nuttshell “I don’t believe college is for everyone but in today’s society, people need to get additional training beyond high school.” WOW, I completely agree.I have met HS grad that cannot tell time on an analog clock, are out of touch regarding history, and current events.etc. Pathetic prep for the REAL world. Gov and liberal stats do not impress me a bit. They definitely have financial interest in the average college mindset and usage. Most college grads that I have met are NOT using their degree and have nasty/stressful student loan debt.. There is pressure now to go on to get a Masters degree (more $$) and then what. One friend did just that and last year got a nice $3,000 pay CUT due to alleged budgetary constraints. I have relative who were invited to be part of Mensa, have multiple degrees but are just now getting a taste of REAL life, now that they are done with the educational hamster wheel. I am not at all against education/learning. It is highly questionable as to what if any real learning/wisdom gets imparted in the overpriced sanctuaries called college. Been there, done that. So disappointing. (said in relaxed tone , not anger or pride) BTW, I went to please my family and sincerely gave it my best.

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  53. Not only that, JA…but HOW will they interact with those outside their community? With disdain? With a mean streak? With a “I’m better than you” attitude? Yep, much negative consequences at stake.

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  54. LadyLidia,
    No, I am not a college professor, however I was in the US Navy for quite a few years. I have been around the world to several countries. I’ve seen some of the worst, and some of the best. We are Americans. We are free. I am sorry that you didn’t like my comment, but it is true about the religious nut jobs. I call a spade a spade, and not afraid to do so. Freedom is what Jesus was all about. Not bondage.

    Ed

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  55. Not only that, JA…but HOW will they interact with those outside their community? With disdain? With a mean streak? With a “I’m better than you” attitude? Yep, much negative consequences at stake.

    So true, Ed – pride that they are doing things the godly or Biblical way. Where the love of Christ in arrogance?

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  56. Wowee… the home educators we have known are very involved with neighbors, community etc. I cannot relate to the isolation that you all are talking about. In fact, that is more like the clique we see with the public schoolers. Most around us only leave the community if there is a school sports event, and then they hang very close to each other. The home schoolers are known for being more social with all types. But then we were never part of the DP cult church stuff.

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  57. Well, I see that while I was drafting my previous comment a number of other comments were posted that made mine superfluous. That, however, will not keep me from typing on.

    I recognize that for some college just won’t fit. For some, while formal education beyond high school will be of value, vocational training may make the most sense. However, even when it comes to vocational training, caution is merited, especially in matters of faith where the lines between what is vocational and what is advanced learning are not so clear.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer observed that American seminaries were merely vocational institutions. Surely there are exceptions, but I recommend that a prospective student give careful thought to whether particular Bible school and/or seminary training will prepare them to do more than just pass along received indoctrination. Just as a mechanic who pretends to be an engineer may do great harm, so also even greater harm will likely be done by those who are given to believe they are accomplished theologians when the reality is that they have done nothing more than receive other men’s opinions. There are way too many of these “theologians,” and I submit that out of their pride born of ignorance much spiritual abuse is perpetrated.

    Actually, I believe that Bible schools and seminaries train people to fill illegitimate roles, but that is a topic for another place and time.

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  58. You all may have already done this but Scott Brown’s departure from his former church shows his character also. It seems he was making money on the side with Vision Forum unbeknownst to the other leaders in the church. Interesting stuff.

    Mike — I was not aware of that particular situation, but I have read about Scott Brown as spiritually abusive at a former church. I am taking notes. There are indeed patterns among church leaders connected with the Homeschool Movement.

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  59. Whether you are impressed with gov or journalism stats or not does not negate the quantitative validity of the fact that those with college degrees have less unemployment and higher earnings over their lifetime. Not to mention, they tend to be better critical thinkers. All three of my kids are working in jobs that they could not have if not for a college degree. And all three are helping people in some capacity.

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  60. NuttShell,
    You had said:
    “Not to mention, they tend to be better critical thinkers.”

    I agree. A person can better weigh the Pros and Cons when educated, otherwise, there will always be preconceived bias.

    Ed

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  61. Where is An Attorney? He has some very good thoughts on helping children learn to make good decisions. If I recall, it involves asking the child questions and getting them to think things through. I would suggest that this is an area where homeschoolers are better equipped to help children than traditional public schools. A public school teacher just does not have the one-on-one time to guide students through the hard work of analytical thinking. If homeschooling parents will teach their children how to think, and not just what to think, their children may well be much better equipped than public schooled children to deal with life in the world, including life at university. (Parents of public school children can also teach theri children to think.) The only other thing I can think of is to try to shelter our children forever, but that is not consistent with what Jesus would have. “I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.” (John 17:15, ESV)

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  62. Joelfrederick 3:40am quoted Bradrick: ‘“The Gospel is the applicability of the word of God to every issue that confronts the word of God”
    This is not what the Bible calls the Gospel. My definition comes from 1 Cor 15 and has nothing directly to do with the issues Bradrick talked about.’
    Amen. This really gets at one of the roots of the problem.
    Similarly, Mr Phillips had a line in his VF bio along the lines of “He realized a man’s witness for Christ consisted not so much in what he knew, but in how he lived his life AS A HUSBAND AND FATHER” (caps mine)
    This is not what the Bible calls a witness (or martyr).

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  63. A B Lever,

    While one of your earlier comments prompted mine this evening, I am not at all intending to push back at you. I am just trying to share some thoughts that might (or might not) be helpful to some. If you find anything of value in anything I say, well and good. However, I suppose it would at best be ironic were I to be suggesting that children be taught how to think, while at the same time telling you what to think.

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  64. Good catch, Dave AA. This is why I keep saying Vision Forum followers MUST throw out the baby with the bathwater. The whole doctrine is mixed with a lot of truth PLUS extra-biblical ideas to promote Phillip’s agenda. “Godly Fatherhood and Godly Husband” were – – claimed to be for men’s spiritual growth, but now some are wondering if it Phillips was cashing in on those ideas since he obviously didn’t practice what he preached.

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  65. Gary W,
    You had said:
    “I would suggest that this is an area where homeschoolers are better equipped to help children than traditional public schools. A public school teacher just does not have the one-on-one time to guide students through the hard work of analytical thinking.”

    Last I recall, that was what “homework” was all about. A public school teacher assigns homework, and the child spends time at home doing school work. Then the parent/child interaction with one one one time can take place.

    School is for “input” and application in tests. Decision making is in homework, when studying for the tests.

    Just for fun, when I used to take tests in the Navy, on a bubble sheet, using a #2 pencil, the old saying was, “When in doubt, “C”.

    Ed

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  66. This is why I keep saying Vision Forum followers MUST throw out the baby with the bathwater. The whole doctrine is {MIXED WITH A LOT OF TRUTH} PLUS extra-biblical ideas to promote Phillip’s agenda.

    Arent you contradicting yourself a bit here? Why throw out the WHOLE LOT OF TRUTH? My emphasis in brackets only here. How about keep the Truth, reject the rest?

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  67. Ed,

    Yes, public school education will work best only where the child is also being taught at home, even if the only contribution the parent(s) make is to make sure the child is doing their homework. Unfortunately, not every child has parents who even care enough to do this.

    As to “When in doubt, “C”. I totally understand. I wouldn’t necessarily use “C” but there were all too many multiple guess exams where I would mark all unknown questions with the same letter, figuring I would get a certain percentage correct just on the basis of statistical probability. By the time I was done with formal education, however, the test graders had started to address this strategy by counting more answers wrong than were actually wrong. I thought it highly unfair.

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  68. AB Lever said:

    LadyLydia, From a mere financial standpoint, college makes almost no sense, financially or morally. Ask financial guy Dave Ramsey or go to his FB page. There are so many many people who have bemoaned their waste of time and money in that respect.

    I have listened to Dave Ramsey and certainly don’t see how you can imply that Ramsey thinks “from a mere financial standpoint, college makes almost no sense.” I certainly haven’t seen that in what he says. Ramsey is big on being debt free and wouldn’t want someone to go to college if it means taking on debt. He has also questioned people major in college when the prospect for a good paying job in that field isn’t good (such as Art History).

    Ramsey also pushes going to a cheaper state school vs. a more expensive private school.

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  69. I agree with you, Steve240. My teens took his high school course and I facilitated it with a bunch of homeschoolers – about 25. It was very good. You’re right about what he says about college – – no need to spend exorbitant amount of $$ for a “name,” when you can go to the generic state college for a fraction of the cost.

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  70. Long time lurker, first time poster. What has brought me here is trying to better understand the young women I’ve come to know personally over the last year who have been severely damaged by biblical patriarchy, spiritual and physical abuse in their religious environments, and yes, autocratic fearful, ignorance based homeschooling. The plural of anecdote is not data of course — I speak only of personal observation and a long life lived. Nevertheless, these young women who have tried to venture out into the world beyond their homeschool patriarchy silos are damaged, not by the world, but by being unprepared to deal with it. They were crippled before they ever left home. It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there and the enormous cognitive dissonance it creates when the fabric of their childhood unravels.

    With all due respect, if these young, dependent, overly sheltered homeschooled young women had been exposed to the women I know who are in college environments, my professor friends and peers, or if they had met the “worldly” young people I know in college themselves or recently graduated, maybe these stay at home girls might have learned about basic things, such as what inappropriate touching is, and words such as “no.” As someone pointed out regarding Phillips’ abused victim, she would have been safer in college than as a stay at home daughter. Keeping her under cover of her father and Phillips didn’t protect her — it groomed her to be an abuse victim. Sending a homeschooled, sheltered son or daughter to college or otherwise out into the world without having ever learned to question authority and think critically would be dangerous and could be devastating but the problem isn’t with the college. It’s the mindset that elevates unquestioning obedience to earthly male authority and teaches her that she’s nothing but a womb waiting to be filled.

    I firmly believe that I keep my children “safe” by equipping them with knowledge, skills, and the ability to think critically, by teaching them how to listen, and how to make good decisions for the day when I’m not there.

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  71. “It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there.”
    Ruth, what lies are you referring to being taught at home? What you describe doesn’t sound like our home or ANY homeschool environment I know. Sounds like major broad brush stereotyping to me.

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  72. Gary W
    You had said:
    “Unfortunately, not every child has parents who even care enough to do this.”

    That is right. You can’t blame the public school system for that one. You can’t blame the so-called government public school system of being the evil empire there.

    My whole point in all of this is that there is an imaginary war that the religious whack jobs are teaching. The first being feminism, hence the war on girls getting an education, outside of being barefoot and pregnant. Then the preaching of how evil the world is, including the US Government, including the public schools. It’s all brain washing. Let’s call it what it is…cultish, and dangerous…BONDAGE.

    I will never ever ever forget being proselytized by a Jehovah’s Witness, when I told him that I was a Navy Veteran. He made sure that I understood that man’s Government is EVIL, in that it does not bring the promised Utopia.

    I practically laughed in his face. My roommate just tells the JW’s that he’s a Wiccan, and they start running from the door.

    I have disdain for strange religious indoctrination, such as the video at the top of this blog post, brainwashing people with fear and scare tactics about the “world”, and then have the nerve to call it Biblical. Hog wash!

    Ed

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  73. LadyLidya,

    I can’t speak for Ruth, but I will ask, WHY are you afraid to send your children to college? I think you gave some very telling hints earlier about date rape, professors, and more. You are scared of the “world”. You are not prepared to let your children go. Why? Due to what you have been told about the world. Distortion. That can be translated as “lies”, not a broad stroke stereotype.

    With Respect,
    Ed

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  74. I practically laughed in his face. My roommate just tells the JW’s that he’s a Wiccan, and they start running from the door.

    This works better with junk mail than door-to-door in-your-face types, but one guy who got on their mailing list forwarded all his JW junk mail to the local Scientology Org and all his Scientology junk mail to the local Kingdom Hall. “It’s their problem now.”

    Though there is the old fannish story about faking a human sacrifice or demon summoning in the living room, like you were interrupted by the JWs (and let them see it through the door). Or the one where the guy answered the door buck naked (though that could get you up on sex charges these days).

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  75. Arent you contradicting yourself a bit here? Why throw out the WHOLE LOT OF TRUTH? My emphasis in brackets only here. How about keep the Truth, reject the rest?

    When somebody duckspeaks “Chew the meat, spit out the bones”, make sure he’s not trying to unload a bucket of bones on you. Cause when they say that, it’s going to be all bones and no meat.

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  76. Maybe, but not necessarily. Hey aren’t these adults here? Able to figure things out for themselves? Keep what’s True, reject what’s not. That’s why I initially posted. To see if there were others similarly searching here. I was looking for Biblical support that cuts against the SAHD argument besides the reference to Lydia, when it is not even clear if she was married or not. I’m aware of many pragmatic arguments against SAHD, but that’s not what I asked for.

    Instead I hear the “religious whack job” lingo a bit too much here. Perhaps it’s just an excuse to reject God bc let’s face it, some folks are very angry at God and need a good reason to reject Him. Of course it’s their right to do so, but be honest about it, eh? And HUG, this is not all directed at you, I’m trying to cover other posts in this reply. Peace to you.

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  77. Ed, I really think I’d enjoy having a beer with you! If you are not a college professor, perhaps an armchair psychologist? ;-). Afraid? No. Legitimate concern based on facts? Yes. Thanks for the psychoanalysis though! Is there a fee for that? ;-)

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  78. Well, it was still a bit chilly outside…it was mid to late spring. Not that long ago, really. It was early spring that I met Barb. I’d love to talk to LadyLydia over a few beers.

    LadyLydia, I have been studying religious “whack jobs” for quite a few years now. It’s a hobby of mine. I have quite a few years under my belt of studying why people believe what they believe. And, I must say that I can smell a fart a mile away, so to speak. Based on my knowledge, I can tell what denomination someone belongs to, based on the lingo. It’s easy. I am not a novice at this Calvinism crap. I am constantly accused of being arrogant. I wear that as a badge of honor. I get blocked from many Calvinist Blog sites, I am told by those Calvinists that I need to seek psychological help, yada, yada, yada. I tell it like it is, and they don’t like it.

    I hate spiritual abuse. This is a life altering issue. This is an ETERNAL issue. It has consequences far beyond anything that I can think of. These whack jobs want power and control, and all they have to do is to tell you it’s biblical, and people that are vulnerable have no choice but to believe what they say. No one has the courage to question their authority, as they are taught that NO ONE has the right to question a man of God.

    So, lets cut to the chase, LadyLydia, you’ve been duped by religious nut jobs. With all due respect, of course.

    Ed

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  79. LadyLydia,
    I think it’s good that you’re considering college for your girls. (and rethinking all those tenets). We opted for the lower cost state colleges/community colleges and our girls lived at home vs the dorm. It’s been a positive experience for all of them. Actually, I’ve heard some real horror stories associated with some private Christian colleges here. No guarantee just because they’re “Christian”. Your concerns re: date rape, etc. could happen whether or not they’re in college I personally wouldn’t let the fear of those events be a factor in my decision re: college. I’m learning to step back and recognize some of the bad choices I’ve made just because of unfounded fear.

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  80. LadyLydia said: “Why throw out the WHOLE LOT OF TRUTH? My emphasis in brackets only here. How about keep the Truth, reject the rest?”
    LL, in a certain sense I agree with you: There is no need to throw out truth. But IMO the truths in patriarchy can be found outside of patriarchy in any Christian church whether Arminian or Calvinist, adult or infant baptizing, old hymn-singing or “happy clappy”. Here is a link that takes the whole “Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy” (the Vision Forum confession of faith) and sums up (the rest of the site examines each point) what in it is and is not rightly backed up from the Bible. http://tenetsofbiblicalpatriarchy.blogspot.com/p/tenets-of-biblical-patriarchy-biblical.html
    To use an “eat the meat, spit out the bones” example: If you buy fish for your family, you can buy fish A that is de-boned, or fish B that you know is positively teeming with fine fishbones that could stick in your children’s throats. Would you buy fish B and telll your children to spit out the bones?

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  81. Thank you Julie Anne. I’m having technical problems so apologies if I’ve tripled posted. Please delete my repeats but I’ve mulling this all evening rather than folding laundry and finally felt I needed to say something on behalf of the damaged women I’ve come to know who have been so hurt in these environments.

    Go ahead and speak for me, Ed.

    Am I stereotyping, LL? Well, I was writing anecdotally, which I conceded. However, I think examples of what I write are well documented in the spiritual abuse survivor communities and religious progressive blogsphere. As I understand it, dissonance is cited as the reason why there is, apparently, a growing discrepancy between young and old evangelicals/fundamentalists on the issue of LGBTs. Ultimately, once exposed to say, an LGBT person or a liberal feminist, they can’t reconcile what they were taught with the reality of the person they meet and have come to like and respect. This extends to a critical examination of previously accepted factual, historical, scientific, and even Biblical information as well. You see examples of this painful reassessment process over and over in the spiritual abuse survivor communities, as these people present what they were taught, analyze it, and painfully come to realize that they can no longer accept it as true.

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  82. LadyLydia asked: “The fallout HAS caused me to reevaluate things Biblically, one “tenet” at a time… I would welcome Biblical support, articles, links etc. … as we grapple with these issues.”

    Here are some links about the tenets, Lydia (replace the DOT with the real thing):

    http://jensgemsDOTwordpressDOTcom/2007/06/11/are-vision-forums-biblical-tenets-of-patriarchy-biblical/ (This is part 1 of 3, scroll to the bottom of the page, click on the bottom right “Are “The Biblical Tenets of Patriarchy” Biblical? Part 2″ for the second part, repeat for part 3)

    http://tenetsofbiblicalpatriarchyDOTblogspotDOTcom/

    And not of the tenets in particular, but all Vision Forum ideas:

    http://scarletlettersblogDOTwordpressDOTcom/the-big-box-index/

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  83. “My whole point in all of this is that there is an imaginary war that the religious whack jobs are teaching. The first being feminism, hence the war on girls getting an education, outside of being barefoot and pregnant. ”

    Just curious. Are these patriarchal dominionist cultists into midwives, homebirths, unassisted births and lotus births (google it) too? I’m not knocking any of the above, I have several friends and family member who have done one or more of the above, and a growing number of Americans are eschewing hospitals in favor of natural births in either a birthing center or at home, and I’m all for it.

    I’m just wondering if the patriarchal, dominionist homeschooling crowd is all earthy crunchy about pregnancy and child birth as well. Seems like a perfect fit.

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  84. Yes, Ri Ri, a lot of them are into that stuff. I had my last 2 babies at home. All of my quiver-full mom friends who had home births were into alternative medicine (naturopaths, chiropractors, midwives, etc), grinding wheat for bread (I still own 2 wheat grinders), etc. That is one part of this movement I think my kids may miss. I could make 5 loaves of yummy wheat bread from wheat berry into their mouths in 1-1/2 hrs. (Shoot, now that I’m talking about it, I want some. I’m not sure where to buy wheat berries around here). Oh yea, we all special ordered foods from food co-ops. Some people were into raw milk and bought it illegally. Lots of non-vaccination among this crowd. Big fear of doctors. I

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  85. Wow, JA…Makes it sound like the current President of the United States is Abraham Lincoln in your scenario of how women live. Four Score and Seven Years ago, our forefathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in BONDAGE and dedicated to the proposition that all women bake their own bread and drink raw milk….lol. Wonder Bread is evil. Homogenized milk is of the devil. Advancement in technology is wicked. Time warp…

    Ed

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  86. That was great, Ed – so funny. It’s about time you showed your face around these parts.

    I still think Wonder Bread is evil.

    Oh – – it was okay to be tech savvy. I’m still trying to figure that one out.

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  87. “Yes, Ri Ri, a lot of them are into that stuff. I had my last 2 babies at home. All of my quiver-full mom friends who had home births were into alternative medicine (naturopaths, chiropractors, midwives, etc), grinding wheat for bread (I still own 2 wheat grinders), etc. That is one part of this movement I think my kids may miss. I could make 5 loaves of yummy wheat bread from wheat berry into their mouths in 1-1/2 hrs. (Shoot, now that I’m talking about it, I want some. I’m not sure where to buy wheat berries around here). Oh yea, we all special ordered foods from food co-ops. Some people were into raw milk and bought it illegally. Lots of non-vaccination among this crowd. Big fear of doctors. ”

    – Sounds very hippie and new age-ish, yet they don’t claim common ground with those folks, do they? They’re “evil” in their minds, right?

    And many of the Buddhists, Vedantists, Yoga people and Hare Krishnas I know are into that stuff too.

    Its the dawning of the Age of Acquarius!
    :)

    Like

  88. Ha!! Well, my bread is Safeway Generic. I’ve read funny stories about some women wanting to bake their own bread, but find it quicker to just go to the local store. We had a Wonder Bread bakery near where I grew up. Smelled really good.

    Ya, I worked late Wednesday night, and today was a very relaxing day, so I thought I would chime in with my usual sarcasm and ruffle some feathers. I hope that LadyLydia sees that I am not picking on her at all…just the patriarchal movement that she is in, hence my snarkiness from your last comment, as well.

    I noted that she thinks that I am against God in one of her comments. Far from that. I’m wondering if she believes that there are Christians “in the world”, or if everyone “in the world” is the evil empire that she is being taught.

    Ed

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  89. Pingback: Does the Doug Phillips et al Brand of “Biblical Patriarchy” Groom Stay-at-Home Daughters to be Victims of Abuse? | Spiritual Sounding Board

  90. Bradrick also wrote, “Those who know me recognize my longstanding, fierce commitment to his family, his work, and his legacy.”

    Why in heavens’ name would anyone show this kind of devotion to one man? Those who know Doug will say that it is because Doug demands such loyalty and shaped his followers to be this way. I will have to take your word for it on that point but could we not call this man-worship? Does Bradrick understand that he has been worshiping Doug for the better part of his life? It will certainly be devastating when he finally realizes it.

    The gut level reaction to this kind of blind loyalty is to swing the pendulum so far the other way that the people in the pews are constantly suspicious of every motive and every decision that is made by church leadership. Trust is earned. I get that. But how do we prevent overreaction? Is it enough to hold to “trust, but verify”?

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  91. @Julie Anne,

    Now doesn’t it make sense why Kevin Swanson was all about those embedded fetuses in wombs – – – it’s like the womb is holy ground for these peeps. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, find Kevin Swanson in categories on my sidebar and you will find articles.

    Yes, I know exactly what you’re talking about, and I think I couldn’t resist snarking about it on some other blogs/forums.

    @ Serving Kids in Japan,

    So ironic… Bradrick was so obsessed with all those Enemies Of The Gospel ‘out there’, he failed to see the wolf right in front of him…

    I guess he just “couldn’t see the trees for the forest” ;-)

    @ Martin Selbrede,

    Giving Peter Bradrick the label of “destroyer” seems ironic in light of the fact that God used this term (in Daniel 9:27) of the avenging force He sent against Jerusalem for her wickedness: in the literal Hebrew, “upon the wing of abominations cometh destroyer” (wing = summit or height of abomination, the extreme far point of wickedness, triggering the divine sending of the destroyer to level the wicked city).

    I had similar thoughts after reading that in Peter Bradrick’s comment on his Facebook page. The label was quite accurate… Bradrick was being a “destroyer”… but in this circumstance, being a destroyer was a GOOD thing, even though that wasn’t the spirit in which that accusation was being levelled by Phillips and understood by Bradrick.

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  92. graceviroqua asks if it’s enough to “trust, but verify.” I would say that it is better to verify before trusting. “but atest everything; hold fast what is good.” (1 Thess. 5:21, ESV)

    There is also talk of pendulums swinging too far the other way, eating the meat but spitting out the bones, and tossing the bath but keeping the baby. These arguments seem rational, and I would be inclined to accept them. The trouble is, the Bible seems to warn against such thinking. A tree is either good or bad. The axe is to be taken to the very roots of the bad tree. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Once mixed in, it is impossible to separate the yeast from the dough.

    I say throw out the poison trees and leaven of patriarchy, as well as every other man made system of theology and rule of life. I say quit following men, including the apostle Paul (c.f. 1 Cor. 1:12, where Paul admonished as much). Certainly do not follow Moses. Follow only Jesus. Just be prepared. In my experience, when you renounce all else but Jesus, the initial stages of the journey will be lonely indeed. Many, if not most, of those you counted as trustworthy friends may shun, exclude, defame and generally attack you. But do not lose heart. You will quickly join other friends, true friends, along the way.

    Like

  93. My Kingdom for an Edit function on wordpress!! I must not have closed the italics tag properly after the word “exactly” in my response to Julie Anne.

    Mod note: Fixed!

    Like

  94. Gary W said:
    “In my experience, when you renounce all else but Jesus, the initial stages of the journey will be lonely indeed. ”

    That is the same in my experience on the blogs. Whether it be Catholic, Calvinist, or Lutheran, they all ditch Jesus for “church fathers”. And they are so dogmatic about it. I say Bible Only, and they renounce that as heresy. They would rather see what Luther/Calvin, etc. had to say on the matter. Last I recall…he’s dead. Jesus Lives. I consult the living, not the dead.

    Ed

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  95. Why in heavens’ name would anyone show this kind of devotion to one man? Those who know Doug will say that it is because Doug demands such loyalty and shaped his followers to be this way. I will have to take your word for it on that point but could we not call this man-worship? Does Bradrick understand that he has been worshiping Doug for the better part of his life? It will certainly be devastating when he finally realizes it.

    The gut level reaction to this kind of blind loyalty is to swing the pendulum so far the other way that the people in the pews are constantly suspicious of every motive and every decision that is made by church leadership.

    When leaders are put in place or gain a place with little if any checks and balances then you have a “recipe” for something like this to happen. When people set up a system where a man is so praised and not questioned and if someone does they are ostracized then one is just asking for this to happen. Hopefully the body of Christ will learn from this and the C.J. Mahaney fiasco.

    A lot can be said for term limits on the presidency as a means of limiting unfettered power.

    Study the “Lucifer effect” and it will show you just what happens to a person when they are given power.

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  96. Why in heavens’ name would anyone show this kind of devotion to one man? Those who know Doug will say that it is because Doug demands such loyalty and shaped his followers to be this way. I will have to take your word for it on that point but could we not call this man-worship?

    That’s whats so weird about these folk. Like when Geoff Botkin wanted to move back to New Zealand a few years ago. He didn’t just up and move like you or I would. No. He tried to convince other people to uproot their lives, families, careers and everything they built here in the US, to move with him. Its like they can’t survive without a circle of sycophants. That all ties into his 200 year plan to have his oldest son become the Prime Minister of New Zealand by this mid to late 50s. Papa Botkin was trying to build a voting block by getting getting all these families to move with him. In addition to setting himself up as a guru of course. Thankfully no body bit and the Botkins are now settled somewhere in the backwoods of Tennessee.

    Same thing with this whole Stay at Home Daughters schtick. These young ladies were not content just staying home for themselves, they had to convince a whole generation to do it with them. Are they that insecure with their own decisions or with how life worked out for them that they have to convince others its some sort of Biblical plan and prophecy?

    Why this constant need for followers and validation? Why not just “do you”?

    This is either narcissism or extreme emotional insecurity. Or both.

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  97. “into midwives, homebirths, unassisted births and lotus births (google it) too?”

    I totally reject your terms as defining, but I know what you are asking….yes, but not to lotus births.

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  98. They’re “evil” in their minds, right?

    No, not so. But if it helps you hate people more with these snarky stereotypes, just keep on believing your own scenarios. I think you would be surprised by the love and grace, hospitality and charity of many of the folks you love to knock down.

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  99. Why this constant need for followers and validation? Why not just “do you”?
    This is either narcissism or extreme emotional insecurity. Or both.
    ……..
    Maybe neither. True believers in a cause, Christian or not, often want others to benefit from their cause.

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  100. Ed, the bread you eat is clearly evil, but I don’t think you are. I imagine if you ate home baked bread consistently you’d lose that unquenchable desire to be a pot stirrer, but then you might not be as fun to be around either. ;-).
    I believe there’s a huge spectrum of Christians, from extremely worldly to ultra legalistic.
    If they place their trust exclusively in the finished work of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for them they are saved. No works righteousness, no extra tenets will save someone. No placing faith in themselves either! No vegetarianism, no head coverings. However, if a person feels convicted about something like head coverings or not drinking, without placing that burden on others or believing it makes them more righteous or likely to be saved, I say follow your Biblical convictions.

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  101. or if everyone “in the world” is the evil empire that she is being taught.
    ………
    Being taught…..by whom? If you think it’s DP, that would be incorrect. I said I’m very close to this mess. I am, but DP has not influenced me for quite some time. I was turned off by his ego a long time ago. It was more about him than the Gospel.

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  102. “into midwives, homebirths, unassisted births and lotus births (google it) too?”

    LadyLydia: “I totally reject your terms as defining, but I know what you are asking….yes, but not to lotus births.”

    You reject those above terms as “defining”? I’m sorry I don’t understand what this means. Care to kindly explain?

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  103. ” Are these patriarchal dominionist cultists”….
    That’s what I was referring to. I was in a hurry. I think it’s a great question but these terms don’t lend themselves to a very open discussion. It sounds like name calling and broad brush strokes ala paint rollers! These are real people who don’t all fit into your neat little categories and you might be surprised about how much you have in common with them. It’s kind of like the meme of The Reformed Guy. If you haven’t seen it, its a funny pic of a super duper Reformed looking Guy. So not all of them take themselves as seriously as you might think.

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  104. It sounds like name calling and broad brush strokes ala paint rollers! These are real people who don’t all fit into your neat little categories and you might be surprised about how much you have in common with them.”

    And the same applies to Patrick Bradrick and his rhetoric of people he refers to as “battlelines” such as feminists, women who choose abortion, and the rest of the long list of “battlelines” featured in his above video.

    (What are “battlelines” anyway? His he calling for war with these people?)

    And my original point was that they do in fact have A LOT IN COMMON WITH with other people – see here;

    Ri Ri
    December 1, 2013 @ 12:02 AM

    “Yes, Ri Ri, a lot of them are into that stuff. I had my last 2 babies at home. All of my quiver-full mom friends who had home births were into alternative medicine (naturopaths, chiropractors, midwives, etc), grinding wheat for bread (I still own 2 wheat grinders), etc. That is one part of this movement I think my kids may miss. I could make 5 loaves of yummy wheat bread from wheat berry into their mouths in 1-1/2 hrs. (Shoot, now that I’m talking about it, I want some. I’m not sure where to buy wheat berries around here). Oh yea, we all special ordered foods from food co-ops. Some people were into raw milk and bought it illegally. Lots of non-vaccination among this crowd. Big fear of doctors. ”

    - Sounds very hippie and new age-ish, yet they don’t claim common ground with those folks, do they? They’re “evil” in their minds, right?

    And many of the Buddhists, Vedantists, Yoga people and Hare Krishnas I know are into that stuff too.

    Its the dawning of the Age of Aquarius! :)

    Like

  105. “yet they don’t claim common ground with those folks, do they? They’re “evil” in their minds, right?”
    Ri Ri, when I read the above I don’t see it, but hey, I’ll take your word for it. Also, you may be right about the video. I have not seen it.
    I would imagine there would be much pain, albeit some hidden for women who have had abortions. They are not enemies, they need a shoulder to cry on, emotional healing and hope in their future. I’m not talking about the loud and proud “I had an abortion” t- shirt wearing group. I would pray for them, but I imagine they would be angry about me doing so.

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  106. And the Hare Krishnas, Buddhists, neo-Vedantists and others in the earthy-crunchy-do-it-yourself-make-it-at-home-homebirth-unassisted-lotusbirth scene?

    Do they claim common and mutually respectable ground with them or are they pagan and idolator “others”.

    “Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try and love one another right now.”

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  107. “common and mutually respectable ground”
    Such as……..? Since this is kind of a nebulous phrase here I’m not entirely sure what you mean. Respect people? Yes. Respect others’ property rights? Yes. Do no harm? Yes. If you can define your terms a bit, then I can better answer the question. But I’ll give it a go anyway. Do they view others of different belief systems as non-believers in Jesus Christ? Of course. That’s just a fact. No meanness or ill will there. Just as a Hare Krishna would view a Christian as outside their belief system.
    People are born discriminating and I mean that in the non-illegal sense. Does baby want the Cheerios or the fruit loops? Do I rent my apartment out to the smoker or non-smoker? Is the red head or brunette the cute one? Are my friends people who share my values or not? It’s in our fabric to discriminate (discern and have preferences) and desire to be with people who appreciate our values.

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  108. “That all ties into his 200 year plan to have his oldest son become the Prime Minister of New Zealand by this mid to late 50s.”

    So funny, don’t they know the globalists had John Key lined up all along and the next PM also.
    And yes, they are weird to think of taking the groupies with them. Hopefully the people of NZ can see through this lot.

    Like

  109. LadyLidia,
    Anything that is not of faith is sin. We have all heard the phrase “leap of faith”.

    You had said:
    “No works righteousness, no extra tenets will save someone. No placing faith in themselves either! No vegetarianism, no head coverings. However, if a person feels convicted about something like head coverings or not drinking, without placing that burden on others or believing it makes them more righteous or likely to be saved, I say follow your Biblical convictions.

    My response:
    1. Works of Righteousness is the obedience of the Law of Moses.
    2. We give God faith, and in return, God gives us grace. But he only gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud.
    3. Head coverings has nothing to do with faith, or righteousness. It has to do with local customs.
    4. I do NOT say to follow your bible convictions. I say to GROW in the Lord, moving from the Milk phase (NOT the raw milk either…homogenized is better!!)…and I am a huge milk drinker…to the meat phase. Those whose faith is weak are those in the milk phase. We grow, based on knowledge of the Bible, and as we grow, our faith increases, and as it increases, the meat tastes better, and you FINALLY see the freedom that you really have. Mature Christians have a much different view of faith than those who are baby Christians. We are admonished to GO BEYOND the milk phase in the book of Hebrews. The Corinthians were in the milk phase. Paul wanted to teach the Corinthians more, but they were NOT ready. They were in strife. They were in division. I am of Paul, I am of Cephas, I am of Apollos.

    Hint: I am of Calvin…I am of Luther…I am of Pope so and so.

    Paul was not happy about their immaturity.

    In my humble opinion, you are in the milk phase, and the leadership that you follow, want you in the milk phase. They want to keep you in that milk phase. They do not want you to be mature in the meat phase. You have freedom in Christ that you have no idea of.

    Paul discusses his freedom in this manner:
    KJV speak: “Conscience, not thine own, but of the other, why is my liberty (FREEDOM) judged of another man’s conscience?”

    John 17 states a lot about “In The World”.

    Ed

    P.S.
    I very much appreciated all of your comments/dialog on here today to everyone.

    Like

  110. I find all this very interesting. I have thought for a long time that one of the reasons many people pursue some of the more extreme lifestyles – not homeschooling necessarily, but extreme isolation/no peer interaction, etc – is that many of these young families did not grow up in Christian homes and do not want their children falling into the sins that they themselves fell into. So they are trying to find a lifestyle that will prevent their children from having the problems that they had, and they don’t have a reference point, so they choose the answers that VF and others have provided. Maybe I’m wrong,and maybe they did grow up in Christian homes; it is just an idea. We homeschooled our kids, but my husband wasn’t interested in the more extreme forms of homeschooling that we were exposed to, and when our children got to high school, we actually sent them to public school (because they wanted to go). It is difficult to be too different from the prevailing culture; it is almost impossible to re-create an entirely new culture, even if it has existed before. VF had some very positive elements, but Satan is always active and no one is exempt from his wiles. It seems to me that if parents talk to their children about ideas, that goes a long way.

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  111. Rebecca,

    In my humble opinion, I believe that God gave men and women “instincts” on how to raise their children.

    Matthew 7:11
    If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    Children are to obey their parents, however, parents are not to provoke them to wrath. Children are taught right from wrong in unbelievers, as well as believers. Children of Christians are taught good from evil, and how to walk with God…”in the world”.

    VF had an agenda, and Satan was leading the charge all along. I do not believe for a moment that he had the heart of God in telling others how to raise their children. I think that parents have autonomy to raise their children how they see fit, just as you have raised yours. If parents wish to home school, great. If parents wish to send their children to public school, great. But, for people like VF to invent non-existent wars for the purpose of isolating children from “the world”, that isn’t right. Children are supposed to be brought up knowing how to deal with the world in which we live in.

    Our light and good works is supposed to be SEEN OF MEN (mankind) and shine on the unbelievers for them to physically see our good works, so that they may come to us and inquire of us as to our HOPE, and why we are so happy about it. We all have the calling to spread the gospel TO “the world”. Male and female, Jew and Gentile. Who are we to restrict the work of the Holy Spirit? That is what VF and his clan are/were doing.

    Ed

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  112. Lydia, you were the one that wrote to me, “These are real people who don’t all fit into your neat little categories and you might be surprised about how much you have in common with them.”

    So I’ll ask the same question you asked me in your last comment…..

    Such as?

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  113. I have not yet commented on the DP situation. I knew DP. I knew a board member VERY closely. I remember once introducing an aspiring author to DP. This person was from Tasmania….by Australia. DP asked him some theological questions in short Bursts
    …like an interview to see if he was in agreement with Postmillennialism…Calvinism….patriarchy… Etc. When the young man gave satisfactory answers, DP asked him where he was from. The young author said “Tazmania”. DP then asked, “What is the population there?”. The answer was about 500,000. Then DP said, as serious as he could, “We could take that place over”. Then they went off to talk some more. That was the beginning of the end for me and my orbit around that star. Really I learned that eschatology is the underbelly of the movement. Maybe more than even patriarchy. Postmillennialism drives their idea that things are getting better and better and the church has all authority and Jesus is waiting at the right hand of the Father for the Church to take dominion in order to usher in the return of Christ. You must understand the importance of this doctrine to everything they do.

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  114. Anotherandanon
    December 1, 2013 @ 2:45 PM

    “That all ties into his 200 year plan to have his oldest son become the Prime Minister of New Zealand by this mid to late 50s.”

    So funny, don’t they know the globalists had John Key lined up all along and the next PM also.
    And yes, they are weird to think of taking the groupies with them. Hopefully the people of NZ can see through this lot.
    _____________________________

    Ah well, these Patriarchal Dominionists ARE “globalists” in the genuine sense of the term.

    They seek One World Religion, One World Culture, and One World Government.

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  115. You’re absolutely right, Oldguy. They think that THEY are the instrument necessary to usher in the Second Coming. That Jesus’ hands are tied, and He is helpless to come until these men have reformed the world to their brand of doctrine, and have turned the world into a one world government under Old Testament Law, and they are the enforcers of that law. Only then will they be ready to permit Jesus to return and hand the Kingdom over to Him.

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  116. Oldguy:

    Thanks for stopping by and sharing your experience with us. I am in complete agreement with you that Phillips’ theology is the underbelly of the movement. The patriarchy, courtship, stay-at-home daughters, family-integrated movement all fit into his nice package of right doctrine/practice.

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  117. They think that THEY are the instrument necessary to usher in the Second Coming.

    Does this not scream pride and arrogance? This is not what we see from Jesus whom we are to model our life after – – the true humble servant.

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  118. Absolutely! What is the common denominator of all these patriarchical tyrants? Pride, Arrogance, Lovers of Self.

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  119. Oldguy … I agree. You’ve shared a very core doctrine with the concept of postmillennialism and how it relates to dominionism.

    One of my primary areas of interest is paradigm analysis, and how the ways we process information shape our presuppositions, beliefs, values, system strategies and structures, cultures, and forms of collaboration. So, the thing I would add about the Vision Forum et al form of dominionism is that I see the underlying way of processing *everything* seems to deal with systems that divide this from that — men from women, adults from children, believers from infidels, leaders from laypeople, certain races or classes from others — and always has one in charge and the other not. And these are each and every one supposedly based in biblical rules and regulations, to ensure that it is “godly.”

    So this atomizing of Adam’s race and leaving one side in a position of authority constitutes perhaps THE key presupposition that cuts across all aspects of human relations: gender, generation, family, tribe, culture, nation, society, civilization. And who wouldn’t want “the good/best guys” to be in charge … [for the supposed glory of God, of course]?

    Thus, with a strong belief about who deserves to be in charge (and attributing that to God so no one can really question it without putting into question their own salvation or status) and a unswayable value on systems of control, rules, and regs, we find ourselves in situations like the current one of Vision Forum Ministries/Inc. and uncountable numbers of other institutions and movements. From all I’ve seen, that movement has itself bound by a toxic mix of core paradigm components. That, then, gets amplified by malignant ministers who by their behaviors and character demonstrate they are either UNqualified for ministry (due to personal immaturity) or DISqualified from ministry (due to unrepentant sin). Even if/when all the toxic leaders are gone, the sick system lingers on to keep all good and obedient subjects aimed at the goals of control: patriarchy, hierarchy, oligarchy, etc.

    In a phrase, it’s just insidious! But by light and truth shining into the situation people come unglued, then there’s hope that the system might break down or at least that those who get shocked into reality will find their Spirit-led way to detox from the destruction and reconstruct in ways that truly do bring glory to God for rebuilding lives that were crushed into rubble by the catastrophes of personal sins and systemic evils.

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  120. RiRi,
    I’m talking about regular folks here, not the DP leadership types, but moms and dads who homeschool their kids and may be caught up in patriarchy and SAHD stuff. By the way, MANY of those in my circle who do subscribe to the above two, have no taste or little knowledge of dominionism/reconstructionism. VERY FEW.

    Things possibly you may have in common with these folks……compassion, empathy for the downtrodden, a sense of justice, care for the poor/oppressed, humor, love for family, the desire to continue being a lifelong learner, loyalty to country, honesty, love of a hobby, love for a pet, faith in Jesus Christ, a good sale at Macy’s. If I had more time I could think of more. And of course, YMMV with your definition of these things and how deep your commitment is to them, e.g. loyalty to country. :-)

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  121. “Lord, moving from the Milk phase (NOT the raw milk either…homogenized is better!!)…and I am a huge milk drinker”

    Ed,
    I have enjoyed our discussions very much too. But your arteries….Check them out! Wonder Bread and homogenized milk :-0 A steady diet of poison is toxic to your health. Similarly, a steady diet of toxic input on the net is not healthy.

    It’s tempting to address your milk/meat suggestion about my walk with The Lord, but I won’t. Truthfully, neither of us know enough about each other to come to any conclusions.

    The Bible talks about redeeming the time, which I need to do. Many here have been gracious and I’m glad for that, but at the risk of sounding psychobabbly, there is a toxic stream here. There are many who don’t want to learn what’s behind the “image” but would rather persist in their preconceived notions and erroneous presuppositions. It’s hard to make the effort here if folks want to keep on believing the present mantra.

    I need to continue preparing lesson plans for my large “brood of blessings.” I pray that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ brings peace and healing to those here hurt by their church or people they trusted in their church.

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  122. @ Lydia,
    “I’m talking about regular folks here, not the DP leadership types, but moms and dads who homeschool their kids and may be caught up in patriarchy and SAHD stuff. By the way, MANY of those in my circle who do subscribe to the above two, have no taste or little knowledge of dominionism/reconstructionism. VERY FEW.

    Things possibly you may have in common with these folks……compassion, empathy for the downtrodden, a sense of justice, care for the poor/oppressed, humor, love for family, the desire to continue being a lifelong learner, loyalty to country, honesty, love of a hobby, love for a pet, faith in Jesus Christ, a good sale at Macy’s. If I had more time I could think of more. And of course, YMMV with your definition of these things and how deep your commitment is to them, e.g. loyalty to country. ”

    Sure, I have *some* of the things you listed in common with those folks.

    Basically the same things I have in common with Catholics, Muslims, Hare Krishnas, Buddhists, New Agers, neo-Vedantists, Old Hippies, New Hipsters, Punk Rockers, Metal Heads, Dead Heads, Rastafarians, and all other human beings on our planet.

    And that was my, uh, er, original point about them having things in common with the rest of us as well.

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  123. @ Brad,

    ” So, the thing I would add about the Vision Forum et al form of dominionism is that I see the underlying way of processing *everything* seems to deal with systems that divide this from that — men from women, adults from children, believers from infidels, leaders from laypeople, certain races or classes from others — and always has one in charge and the other not. ”

    – Yes I made the same observation and commented earlier,

    “This whole patriarchal, disciplinary way of life is adversarial. Husband against wife, parents against child – everyone in a tussle for ‘dominance’. ”

    What a miserable way to live!

    Like

  124. LadyLydia,

    Well, I have a riddle that I often ask people.

    What is the number one cause of death?

    They will say stuff like cancer, heart disease, clogged arteries, overdose of drugs, alcoholism, etc., etc.

    Wrong. The answer is: LIFE. If you live you will die.

    When Noah got off the Ark, God told him that he could eat ANYTHING he wanted. No restrictions. The food restrictions didn’t come about until the law of Moses. Last I checked, Gentiles were never under the law of Moses. Last I checked, Christians are not under the law of Moses. I am free to eat anything I want, conscience free, including fattening bacon, and whole milk. To me, it’s Whole Milk, or NO milk.

    You had said:
    ” There are many who don’t want to learn what’s behind the “image” but would rather persist in their preconceived notions and erroneous presuppositions. It’s hard to make the effort here if folks want to keep on believing the present mantra.”

    My response:
    I can assure you, there isn’t any preconceived notions or erroneous presuppositions. Spiritual Abuse exists, and there is a core reason. Many of us “regulars” here have really delved into the doctrines of Calvinism to get an understanding that the core beliefs of Calvinism is the underlying reason for the abuse. This Calvinism stuff is NOT NORMAL Christianity. In all sincerity to you, it sounds like you don’t see yourself as a victim of spiritual abuse, therefore you don’t see what others see. Maybe that is a good thing, but I see it as a bad thing. Maybe you have blinders on. And, so therefore, to you, what we discuss is toxic.

    It sort of reminds me of the Patty Hurst situation many years ago. She was kidnapped, but later she had sympathy with her captors.

    Please don’t be a Patty Hurst.

    Ed

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  125. Well, if the Calvinism belief is to populate the world with more and more Christians for a spiritual battle, so that there are more Christians than the so-called bad guys, I am reminded of the battles from the Old Test.

    Judges 7-8

    Gideon’s army began with 32,000. God told Gideon to tell his army that those who are afraid to fight to return home. The Army was reduced to 10,000. But God said that 10,000 people was way too many people. So, God had Gideon take those 10,000 down to a river to have a drink of water. After they drank the water, he saw that 300 drank the water by lapping it up from their hand, rather than bending down to drink it directly. So, God said that those 300 only will be the army to defeat the Midianites.

    Judges 7:12
    And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the children of the east lay along in the valley like grasshoppers for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand by the sea side for multitude.

    How many people does God NEED to defeat our enemies? Who is the enemy if we fight not against flesh and blood (PEOPLE), but the spiritual forces?

    Ed

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  126. Chapmaned24 said: “It sort of reminds me of the Patty Hurst situation many years ago. She was kidnapped, but later she had sympathy with her captors.”

    “Stockholm syndrome” comes to mind.
    I wrestled a long time with the doctrine of election (which some equate with Calvanism) because there are clearly too many verses where election is supported, going all the way back to the OT where God called Israel.

    Jesus also says “all who the Father gives to me will come…”
    I won’t list all the verses because that’s not the topic.
    I still believe in election but also believe we choose.
    God extends his gift of salvation to us, but we have to take it.
    “many are called, few are chosen”.
    After many many years I still can’t deny election.

    Are you equating that with Calvanism?

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  127. Hannah,

    I’ve studied the predestined, election situation, and I do not define it as the Calvinists do. In regards to the predestined, Christians in general were predestined “TO BE”_______________ fill in blank. One of them is “conformed to” Jesus. The other is “good works”. The word predestined is not discussing an individual sinner to be saved.

    Next, NO ONE was “saved” until Jesus died on the cross. Even the OT Prophets were not saved until Jesus died on the cross. There was a temporary abode for those people, called Abraham’s Bosom. That place was still a “separation from God” place. Once Jesus paid the price, those people were released from captivity.

    In regards to election, that one is more tricky. I am still looking at that one. However, what I have concluded so far is likening it to this:

    The Term Christian is no different than the term Canadian. The “i”, “a”, “n” letters are significant. Where do Canadians live? Canada. Well, liken that to, “Where do Christians live?” The answer: In Christ. Our spirit lives in the body of Christ, and…get this…God’s spirit lives in us…the BODY of Christ. He in us, we in him.

    OK, now that I got that out of the way, the elect are Christians…and whoever, by free will, decides to be a Christian, is part of the elect. The individual is not “chosen”. The individual chooses.

    The Jews were chosen to be a peculiar people. Not each individual Jew, but collectively. Who are the Jews? Those who are descendents of Abraham, thru Isaac who are circumcised. IF they are not circumcised, they are cut off from their people. That is why it was included in the law of Moses, so that they would remain the chosen people, not chosen person.

    Another way of putting it, I just started a brand new football team, and I name it, “Seattle Seahawks”. The Seattle Seahawks are the elect. Currently, I have NO ONE on the team. Who wants to be on my team? If some say yes, they are of the elect. If they reject, it isn’t because I didn’t advertise for players. They just chose not to respond.

    Yes, God states that we did not choose him, but he chose us…or did he say that to Jewish people that were already a chosen race? John 17 shows that these people were already the Fathers, and that the Father gave them to Jesus. And, one of them was of the devil so that scripture would be fulfilled.

    I say all this to say, I’m still studying all of this, but I do not believe in the Calvinist/Luther/Catholic version of election/predestination. The predestination word is extremely easy to debunk. The election word is more difficult, but can be debunked as well…in my view.

    Ed

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  128. I like the Seattle Seahawks example except usually a team member is chosen to be on the team (or traded in ). The scout looks at the available players and says “You are on this team” . (mind you -I am in no way a sports fan)

    So my example of the gift in an outstretched arm of God is the only way I can see it.
    The gift is extended and we have to still take it.

    I agree with the word differences.
    If you do a word search on “election” it is really hard to dispute that we are called.
    Although some of it pertains to the disciples, which the church has always extended to us all. The 12 were called…no doubt about that. They did not choose Jesus-He called them. So I am not sure those verses always carry over to us.

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  129. Hannah,
    haha!! Well, usually, money talks, so the scout isn’t empty handed when he states, “You are on this team.” “Show me the money”!!

    Well, as far as the word, “called”, I believe that we all (Christians, or, should I say, the already saved) have a calling. What that calling is can only be defined by you and God alone, and your passion for whatever gifts that has bestowed upon you for “his goodwill and pleasure”. I put that in quotation marks, because that is an abused quote that Calvinists love to twist. But when used properly, what you do in loving others is a reflection of his goodwill and pleasure.

    In regards to the gift, I think you described it well. Gifts are to be received, not forced. In the KJV, the word “received” is used in many different ways, but means the same. It is an acceptance…i.e., received the word of the Lord, etc. Received the gift. So, there is another argument against the Calvinists.

    Well, as you can see, I am certainly not a fan of the so-called “church fathers” who dictated to future generations as to what they are to believe. They put on their pants the same way that I do…one leg at a time.

    Ed

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  130. Hannah quotes:
    John 6:44
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,

    My response:
    How does the Father draw them?

    Answer: Through other people. You tell two people, and they tell two people and they tell two people, etc.

    That is how the Father draws them. YOU Plant the seed. Another waters the seed, but God gives the increase. It still takes YOU to start the process by either planting, or watering.

    1 Cor Chapter 3

    Ed

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  131. Hmmmm….well if there is no one there to preach the Word says they are without excuse… Romans 1 says he will reveal Himself to them…I know this discussion can go round and round and isn’t the topic, but it is an interesting one…and I wonder how much this plays into the entire VF discussion since the Patriarchal system seems to contradict their Calvanist beliefs as far as His sovereignty in all things.
    Ex: Keep daughters at home lest they fall into sin (who is in control?) Dad in control vs God in control…

    I bought into the “keep the kids in church lest the devil destroy them in public school”
    “no secular music” (of which my son listened to rap on his ipod), etc etc.

    The only comfort I have ( “Was I a godly enough parent, etc…”) in Christianity is that God is ultimately in control of things and I am not.

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  132. I have a few comments.

    The first about the value of college and especially for women. With this group’s focus on home schooling children, do you really want someone homeschooling your children that only has a high school (or homeschool equivalent) of an education? It would be one thing if homeschooling was pushed so much to argue about not thinking women that will later be homemakers not go to college but with this emphasis it is baffling.

    I believe in college for both men and women for most but not all. Just find this baffling.

    I wrestled a long time with the doctrine of election (which some equate with Calvanism) because there are clearly too many verses where election is supported, going all the way back to the OT where God called Israel.

    Calvinism and the doctrine of election (that someone has no choice with regard to salvation) are one in the same from all that I have read.

    It is pretty easy find vs. supporting election/predestination and also easy to find verses that don’t support it. Some vs. that don’t support election/predestination include where it says

    18 being darkened in their understanding, [a]excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (Eph 4:18)

    This vs. basically says that some men are ignorant and excluded because of their hardness.

    There is another vs. that says that God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of Christ.

    If you choose to believe in Calvinism make sure you understand all that it stands for:

    – God decides who will and won’t be saved. Those who God doesn’t give an “irresistible grace” to have no chance of ever being saved. Thus for parents no matter how you raise your kids if God doesn’t give them this “grace” then they won’t be saved.

    – God says he “calls all men to repentance” but only gives some men what they need to be able to repent. It is almost like God is taunting some individuals.

    I am sure the debate over Calvinism vs. free will will continue till Christ returns. Just realize that there are scriptures to support both viewpoints.

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  133. Oldguy (1, 8:08pm) wrote: “Postmillennialism drives their idea that things are getting better and better and the church has all authority and Jesus is waiting at the right hand of the Father for the Church to take dominion in order to usher in the return of Christ.”

    Is this why I get a strange sense of placidity from some of the leaders? No working hard for clarity and openness to those outside-but-next to them, as if it doesn’t matter all that much. A language meant for each other rather than for everyone. A lack of mission to broader culture (except as sermons of judgment), something that I’ve not met before in quite that way. ??

    If this is so, maybe it also partially explains the peculiar spiteful condescension among some of the supporters. Sometimes their comments are drive-by shooting practice, just to let off some steam.

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  134. Steve240,

    We can take this over to the other thread, but I will say based on your last sentence, God does not talk out of both sides of his mouth, so to say that both sides are supported would not be an accurate statement.

    Thanks,

    Ed

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  135. Maybe someone mentioned it already, but “TW” and Jen have let the next shoe fall– a Mistress Jezi was roaming BCA stalking sons, interns, and elders-in-training, and good parishioners who complained to Doug were church-disciplined, and those who left were excommunicated. Jen and “TW” are today getting a little sweet, well-deserved revenge, perhaps– served cold. When Doug first resigned, I perused the BCA website — the website for a supposed CHURCH and found it mostly filled with vitriol against the Epsteins– 6 years or more later.

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  136. Ed
    We are binary individuals created with an “either or” mentality. We are bound by a three dimensional world and God is not. God is huge and not limited by time or place.

    I would not be surprised if there are other options that are outside the ability of our binary minds to comprehend. It is entirely possible there is a third way. Humility in our ability to comprehend such a God is often the best approach.

    BTW-Both sides of the mouth work only for binary creatures.

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  137. Dee, I sort of disagree with that assessment. Let us reason together, God states. Jesus said time and time again, “Have you not read?” And, to be carnally minded is not a good thing. Ye need not that any man teach you, if you need wisdom, ask God, seek knowledge, and much more. Paul understood mysteries, and wants us to be like minded in figuring things out, lest we be ignorant.

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  138. “We can take this over to the other thread, but I will say based on your last sentence, God does not talk out of both sides of his mouth, so to say that both sides are supported would not be an accurate statement. ”

    Bingo. More of the “making God a chaotic confusion”. The problem lies in the interepretation of what “election”/predestination means. Corporate or individual? Isreal was “elect” but not all Isrealites saved, for example.

    I do not for one minute believe God makes His truth some mystery we cannot know. In fact, *I think that was a big reason He came as a human! I think folks take the “see through a glass darkly” metaphor way too far….just as they take the sheep metaphor way too far. If we cannot know the indwelling God then what on earth was it all for? There are options we cannot know? Seriously? The appeal to mystery makes for a good way to dismiss the uncomfortable but it also props up many tyrants, too.

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  139. Lydia, I have a response for you, but JA is setting up a new thread, closing out the old thread of the Calvinism free-for-all. Once completed, I will respond over there. I loved your response! I just feel the need to expound on your response.

    Thanks,

    Ed

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  140. I posted my comment about Calvinism before looking at your link about new revelation about Doug Phillips. I wouldn’t have posted the comment about Calvinism if I had read that first. How utterly shocking but really not surprising. At least some of the truth is coming out.

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  141. On Peter Bradrick’s wall, someone has posted this in his message:

    “I still stand by every word that he taught, because they were truth straight from scripture.”

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  142. “Ah well, these Patriarchal Dominionists ARE “globalists” in the genuine sense of the term.

    They seek One World Religion, One World Culture, and One World Government.”

    Now there’s a statement to scare the liver out of a person!
    Especially since it’s so true.

    Like

  143. I have been following this thread and have not replied. But I am really bothered about some of the homeschool insinuations so can’t hold it in any longer. But first I would like to say that Doug is getting exactly what he deserves by deceiving so many. I pray for true repentance but nothing I have heard so far indicates any sort of sorrow for his many sins.

    I have homeschooled all five of our children. My husband and both graduated from high school and neither of us attended college. I started homeschooling, to be honest, because the public school we went to made learning BORING. So boring, we both dreaded ever stepping in a school again. We were athletic and popular so were handed decent grades because of it, but really learned almost nothing. We decided, before homeschooling was ever popular and before any leaders like Doug started speaking, that our kids deserved to have an excited learning environment.

    Our oldest is now in an engineering program at a very hard to get in public university. Actually, he made it into Honors College (1% of the college is in Honors) He has travelled the world and served as president in Robotic Competitions as a 10th to 12th grade. He competed against colleges such as MIT and won. As a sophomore he started a robotic division at the University he now attends and now they compete nationally. He is VERY outgoing and friendly The professors have recommended him to intern for many opportunities and have invited him to amazing events. He has won over 30K in scholarship money in 2 years.

    My daughters both are very talented and attended Running Start at our local college. They qualified to get into college in 11th grade. One is very talented musically and one artistic. I don’t know where it will lead them but know we are behind them 100 % no matter where God takes them.

    I am still homeschooling the youngest two.

    Don’t imagine any of them anti social nerds. They are actually so outgoing and friendly they have gotten comments from doctors and public school teachers about their dedication and wonderful personalities. My daughters drivers-ed teacher (public school teacher as she took it at our local high school) told me in his 30 years of teaching high school my daughter was in the top 5 % of intelligent and enjoyable kids.

    Okay, I am not trying to brag but just point out that some of the comments above are absolutely wrong. And I am not alone. Most homeschooled kids I know are very sweet and smart. That does not mean public school kids are not. I know many who are just as cool as my kids.

    We have always opened our home to all neighborhood kids. Actually, we have always been the fun house, with a trampoline, tree houses, and fun activities. Yes, we are careful where our kids go, but one of our kids best friends is not from a Christian family, actually they are very liberal. And we love them and feel totally comfortable having our kids play at their house anytime.

    Okay. So I am getting off my soapbox but couldn’t stand by the negative comments anymore. Don’t lump all homeschoolers together. The Doug followers are very few in my neck of the woods. Just as I wouldn’t say all public school teachers molest their kids just because some do. This is about Doug and his totally deceiving ways. Not about homeschooling. if people want to homeschool, home birth (I never would but hey, it works for some) make bread, whatever, how does that hurt others?

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  144. Juie,

    I know that I have made a few comments here in regards to the negative. Yours is the positive. As I said in another comment here, whether parents decide to home school, or public school, it’s their decision, not the decision of another. Freedom. I really enjoyed reading your words. My opposition is certainly not based on examples of experiences such as yours. My opposition is based on phoney religious agenda’s, which includes the “indoctrination”, included in “education”. These are phoney religious battles, which are planted in people’s minds to make them fear the outside world of those “in the world”.

    Your story doesn’t seem to be related. Your story is beautiful.

    Ed

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  145. Thank you Ed :) I have been following the Doug thing since the beginning. I used to listen to some of his stuff but threw it all away years ago when he kept asking for money as it just didn’t make sense that he needed money with all his trips and fancy clothing. But, never would I have believed someone could preach so much about family and all the while do stuff like this. It is disgusting and I feel dirty just listening to him and exposing his teachings to our kids for a short while. I would have never believed his tyrannical cult like hold on other believers. I feel sorry for them and hopefully this is enough to wake them up that Jesus is the only one we should uphold, follow and worship.
    .

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  146. Julie, Your last line is spot on! We must humble ourselves daily unto the Lord and not put our trust in men but in God and God alone. God will forgive Doug if he truly desires it and repents but that trust that you can only build over time with earthly brothers & sisters is all but lost forever. There are earthly consequences to our sin and it appears DP is in the reaping season of his sin. It’s easy for me to sit behind my keyboard and preach but we’re all sinners saved only by grace. Although I haven’t committed this same sin DP has I’m still a sinner and my best is filthy rags. Jesus presents me to the Father and without HIm I’m lost forever.

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  147. Julie: I agree with Ed – what you’ve been able to achieve homeschooling your family is beautiful. I think most people generally have the understanding that homeschooling is absolutely fine. The Doug Phillips brand of homeschooling is fringe stuff and many Christian homeschoolers don’t even know it exists!

    I’m glad you’ve shared your family’s story here.

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  150. I agree both Ed and Julie Anne. The bad thing is how many people were for a short time (us) or long time (others) have had at least some damage to alot done through teachers like this and the Pearls and others. The only good thing, I hope, is people will stop looking to men but instead God and the bible to find out what it says and be supported of others whether they homeschool, public school or private school. There is alot of pride in the homeschool movement and we need to let go of that and be like Jesus.

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  152. Since Phillips promoted the view that Jesus was resurrected we can now push this aside as well. Praising we are free from biblical oppression. I wonder if others are held to the same standard, ehh probably not.

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  153. Jimmy, Just because someone promotes something and they are deceiving does not mean that the truth is wrong. Jesus was resurrected. Surely you can understand this ideain your own realm of life? Example might be a teacher promotes learning is good and then does not teach. That does not mean learning is not true. It is logic.

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  154. Dear Julie Anne,

    I’m not in the US, so I am probably oblivious to all the details surrounding Doug Phillips. I have written to say that I think there’s a bit of slander and gossip happening on this website. It seems that the people who are posting these things need to stop and think about their own actions in light of scripture.

    I’m not one of these followers of DP or VF, so please do not think I am a fierce defender of the movement. I just think that in all your disgust and anger that you’ve actually gone off track yourselves. You talk about abuse and the victim, yet there is nothing you can give to substantiate your claims. This type of talk simply is gossip.

    Personally, I don’t want to know anymore than what Doug and VF have publicly announced because really, what does it matter that I know the details or not? The bottom line is that guy sinned, he has publicly repented and apologised, and he has resigned from any teaching/pastoral positions. Whether he has truly repented or not is between God and Doug. What happened, and is happening, is between him, the Lord, and the people he has directly offended and hurt.

    I don’t see any scriptural support for how people are behaving here. Actually, I see a bit of pride coming out in the posts, a bit of looking down the nose. Here’s the thing – I have not read any confession from Doug or the woman about any details, so everything you allude to is mere speculation……gossip! You also refer to a comment by Bradrick and from there and then suggest that Phillip’s public repentance was fraudulent. Tell me, do you know the workings of his heart?

    So, let’s evaluate what you have done here. You’ve taken “he said/she said” snippets and used them to try and condemn another person. God’s Word makes it clear that we should not bear false witness, nor be a troublesome meddler, or one who gossips.

    If you have a beef about the VF/patriarchal movement, then focus on that and that alone. One person’s sin does not negate a teaching anymore than a person’s good deed does not confirm a teaching. Only the Word of God can reveal the truth or error in what is being taught.

    Kind regards,
    Lyn

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  155. Lyn, Thank you for your post!!! I’ve read all of this with a true ache in my heart. Not just for what DP’s sin has done to vision forum supporters and readers, but for the sinful, hypocritical comments by the self-proclaiming Christians that have written here. Each and every one of you who has judged DP and VF is guilty of trying to remove a speck from his eye while you have a plank in your own. You are all sinners. You have all fallen short of the glory of God. You are saved (if you are) ONLY by the GRACE of our Lord, not by your own self-righteousness. All I’ve seen on here is self-righteousness. He has repented publicly and asked for forgiveness. Whether it’s true repentance can only be known by God. However, we are obligated to forgive him just as Christ has forgiven a multitude of our sins. His sins, no matter how great or how many, are no worse than any sin you or I have committed. That is not my opinion, that is in the Bible. And, although I was ex-communicated by the Presbyterian Church for not believing every doctrine they teach, I absolutely stand by much of VF’s teachings as they are Scriptural and not “created by Doug Phillips”. The biggest sin here (to me, not God) is that the disappointment and anger shown by most of you proves that you hold mankind to a standard they are not worthy of. If you recognized the sinful nature of man – every man – then you would not be so angry with DP for what he has done. You would feel sympathy for the fact that he is a sinner, just like all of you, and he needs Christ just as all of you. On another note, I have yet to see how this “woman” is a victim of DP. Was she under age? If not, then she is responsible for her actions and the choices she made to step in on a family. She shares the blame with DP. Since he has not been arrested, I will take that to mean she is of legal age and therefore, unless he tied her up in his basement, she is not a victim. She is an adulteress, just as he is an adulterer. I think, instead of pointing fingers and judging our brother, we should be encouraging him to seek the Lord in changing his heart about this matter and reconciling with his family. We should also look to his wife and children, who appear to be supporting and forgiving him, as an example to all of us of what Christ teaches. Love, do not judge lest ye be judged. Thank you again, Lyn, for being the only one bold enough to speak the truth.

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  156. Lynette, I added the 2 to your name because we have another regular reader by the name Lynette and I didn’t want people to get confused.

    I could not disagree with your comment more. Please read the more post which was information shared to me by people very close to the situation. I’m not sure how you have come to your conclusions, but applying pat religious expressions of: judge not, about removing the plank, we’re all sinners, are just trite responses that avoid looking at the reality of what really was going on. I encourage you to keep reading the information here. On this blog, we protect victims of abuse. This young lady was underage when she knew Phillips who then later used his position of authority and trust over her. She bears no responsibility! I beg of you to learn about spiritual abuse so that you can understand these issues more clearly. thanks, Julie Anne

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  157. “And, although I was ex-communicated by the Presbyterian Church for not believing every doctrine they teach, I absolutely stand by much of VF’s teachings as they are Scriptural and not “created by Doug Phillips”. ”

    There is the “clue”. “Shaving daddy is scriptural”. Oooookaaaaay.

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  158. Lynette’s comment is almost comical if you didn’t think she(assume this person is a woman) was serious.

    Especially with her being a woman you would think she would understand the dynamics of an older man sexually harassing a younger woman and how vulnerable this woman (Doug Phillip’s victim) was especially due to the teaching on female submission promoted in this group not to mention the power dynamics.

    I would certainly hope that most people commenting and critiquing Doug Phillips don’t have “planks” in their eyes with Phillips only having “specks.” If that were the case, the people critiquing Phillips would be sexually harassing more women or something like that.

    There is no question Doug Phillips should be forgiven like everyone needs. There should be consequences for his actions Also when one behaves like this one should rightly so question his teachings.

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