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Peter Bradrick, former intern, former Executive Assistant to the President at Vision Forum Shares Publicly That He is “Disowned” and Declared as “Destroyer” by Doug Phillips of Vision Forum
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Peter Bradrick, a man closely connected with Doug Phillips and Vision Forum for nearly one-third of his life recently opened his Facebook page for public viewing. Take a look at Bradrick’s employment history to see how involved he was with Phillips and ventures with which Phillips was closely affiliated:
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Those who are familiar with Phillips and his teachings can easily see that Bradrick has learned the lingo very well. Here is Bradrick in action:
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Peter Bradrick was an intern and poster child for Phillips and Vision Forum. He was groomed for the business ministry. He married Scott Brown’s daughter, Kelly in a very public wedding. Scott Brown has been a long-time friend of Doug Phillips.
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Who is Scott Brown and What are His Connections with Doug Phillips?
Scott Brown is on both the board of the National Center for Family Integrated Churches (NCFIC) and Vision Forum Ministries. NCFIC was originally part of Vision Forum ministries and later became an independent ministry in 2004, under the directorship of Brown. There is no doubt how influential Phillips was to Brown when reading the Brown’s bio at the NCFIC site.
“Over the years, my sensitivity to these problems has only heightened, until several years ago, I set about to align with men who were sounding the alarm of truth and offering Biblical answers to the problems we are facing. Doug Phillips was one of those men, and Vision Forum was one of those ministries which the Lord has providentially raised up at this time in history to rebuild our Christ honoring foundations, one family at a time.
“The work of the NCFIC is about family reformation, and this dovetails perfectly with where the Lord has placed my own life and the life of my family. I am so thankful for Doug Phillips, Jim Zes and Don Hart who are courageous enough to pour out their lives for the truths that we must stand on. —Scott Brown (Source)
Brown was one of the board members during the time Vision Forum Ministries board announced that Vision Forum Ministries was closing. Months earlier, possibly around the same time Phillips either stepped down or was removed from his teaching elder position at Boerne Christian Assembly, Brown posted an article, “What Does True Repentance Look Like?.” What did he know and when?
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Peter Bradrick Breaks His Silence
On November 26, 2013, Peter posted a comment that he was going to go offline and focus on his family: “after a long and weary season of business failure and more recently significant shock and disappointment regarding a very tender matter close to me.”
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Bradrick shares more in his next Facebook entry dated November 27, 2013. This comment is worth reading. The first paragraph describes his relationship with Phillips as his mentor and spiritual father and Bradrick’s commitment to the Phillips family, work, mission.
He then wrote about the intention of a group of men who were “bosom brothers,” close friends, to lovingly confront Phillips to plea for true repentance and restoration.
What for us was a tender, emotional, mission of mercy and plea for true repentance was met with something, and by someone I never could have imagined. Instead of being received as the “wounds of a friend” (Proverbs 27:6), I was formally disowned and declared to be a “destroyer” to my face.
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This following screenshot is a comment that came in from Joe Morecraft beneath Bradrick’s Facebook note. Pastor Joe Morecraft was on the September 20-29, 2013 Vision Forum Ancient Greece Tour with Phillips as a teacher. I’ve read that Morecraft unexpectedly took over Phillips’ teaching responsibilities during the trip. Joe Morecraft responded to Bradrick via his wife, Becky’s Facebook account:
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Bradrick’s account completely discounts the words of repentance we read from Phillips’ public statement and it sure looks like Morecraft concurs with Bradrick in the Facebook comment.
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Does this the first public acknowledgement that Phillips was not showing the fruit of repentance as Phillips suggested?
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If Phillips were showing signs of repentance, surely these two men would have acknowledged it. Yet, instead what we see from Bradrick and Morecraft is profound sadness. This sure seems to indicate that the public statements of Phillips professing his heartfelt repentance have been fraudulent.
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So what else is new under the sun for spiritual abusers?
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Those who have followed this blog for a while can see this pattern fits completely with so many other signs of abuse of power: shunning, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, different public personality than in private, etc.
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This is a very sad situation for those who have followed Phillips and Vision Forum Ministries. My prayer is that they will not only see Phillips for who he truly is, as a spiritual wolf and abuser, but will also see the fruit of the rigid and legalistic Patriarchy practices that this group has promoted and influenced throughout the years affecting multitudes of families.
Those who have been following Phillips and Vision Forum must understand that in order for Phillips to yield this much authority, he had to twist scripture to elevate his presumed position of authority as husband, as business owner, as teaching/elder (or pastor). This presumed authority was taught to families across the Nation and now there is a whole generation of young adults and families reaping the rotten fruit of his bad teachings.
While some are saying, “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because Phillips sinned, that doesn’t mean his view of Patriarchy and Biblical family is bad.” I am strongly challenging that notion. As a long-time homeschool mom, I have personally witnessed the destruction and am in contact with many who share their sad stories (here’s one: In the Wake of the Doug Phillips Affair, a Mother Grieves and Seeks Our Prayers and be sure to read the comments). It is time to call this movement what it is:
RUBBISH!
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EDITORIAL NOTE: The last paragraph above was edited November 30 to remove a double negative that made the meaning confusing.
Related articles
- Doug Phillips: The Patriarch and His Personal Failure (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Patriarchy Never Sleeps, (Scarlet Letters blog)
- A Closer Look at Doug Phillips’ Clarification Statement (spiritualsoundingboard.com)
- Vision Forum Inc. to Permanently Close December 31 (jensgems.wordpress.com)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
““For one thousand years, this principle has guided Western civilization. Simply stated, that principle is this: the groom dies for the bride, the strong suffer for the weak, and the highest expression of love is to give one’s life for another. The men aboard the Titanic recognized their duty because they had been raised in a culture that implicitly embraced such notions. Only by returning to these foundations can we ever hope to live in a society in which men will make the self-conscious decision to die so that women and children may live. This is the true legacy of the Titanic.” Douglas Phillips
When those who champion “women and children first” hide behind smooth words instead of “suffering for the weak”… When the strong take advantage of the weak, and then turn them out like so much garbage… When the strong seize the lifeboats and leave the weak drowning in the icy water… it leaves no choice for men of God other than to rise up and oppose them when they discover the truth. Woe to those that do not.”
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Isn’t that something? I remember when Vision Forum got started and I wondered why they were so obsessed on that story. In an earlier Phillips post, I put up a picture of a sinking ship just because of that.
And all of this business about women and children first. Yea, woman first for his own needs, and his own wife/children get the backseat and abandoned. Pretty sick.
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I remember that photo. Does this mean that Phillips basically abandoned the woman and left her to sink? Yet he talks about repentance????? What kind of repentance is this? And this after his Repentance sermon! >:-(
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WFTT2 asks what kind of repentance is this after he preached a repentance sermon?
This trait is very common for spiritual abusers. The psych term is called “projection.” They preach on things they are struggling with the most. If they preach against sexual immorality, they are probably struggling with sexual immorality. If they preach about true repentance, they probably haven’t exhibited true repentance.
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I still think that sermon was given in an attempt to appease the victim, to hopefully prevent his adultery from being made public. And it backfired.
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Maybe – – not only to appease the victim, but to appease Scott Brown et al.
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You got a point there.
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from WFTT2’s link:
another interesting comment on Peter Bradrick’s page:
“Bob Renaud: This is why we did what we did brother. We were not going to sit by and allow the weak to be victimized. I still believe in this doctrine even if my mentor and friend rejected it.”
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I’m gonna go stock up on some popcorn and watch the fireworks. 😉
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Well, let me know what happens, I’m going to bed. Goodnight all!
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If Phillips stepped down from the pulpit last February, does anyone know when the perverbial **** hit the fan? Seems like 10 months is a long time for all this to become public knowledge (and how long had it been exposed before Phillips stepped down from the pulpit??) and I think this is most likely the tip of the iceburg. And if Phillips had stepped down from preaching responsibilities last February, what in the world was he doing teaching on an Ancient Greece tour in September which he apparently had to stop midstream due to something???? Do I have the dates incorrect?
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Julie Anne, thanks once again for keeping us informed about this. I read Bradrick’s FB page and it sounded to me like he was deeply shocked by the way Doug Phillips responded when that group of men (including Bradrick) went to confront him. I’ve read many many accounts of abuse from victims of domestic abuse, and these words of Bradrick’s have the ring of authenticity:
“[we were] met with something, and by someone I never could have imagined. Instead of being received as the “wounds of a friend” (Proverbs 27:6), I was formally disowned and declared to be a “destroyer” to my face.”
So Phillips accused Bradrick. Accused him of being a ‘destroyer’. This is blame shifting; and it’s utterly typical behavior for an abuser/ The exact evil the abuser has done is exactly what he accuse the innocent persons of doing (the primary victim, secondary victims, or allies of the victim. Let’s put it plainly: Doug Phillips has destroyed Vision Forum and the welfare of countless people. He is the destroyer. But he accuses people like Bradrick of being the destroyer.
I would like to say to Mr Bradrick: now that you have seen that Doug Phillips is someone you could never have imagined, maybe you might give some thought to the possibility that your understanding of evil has been somewhat shallow. Perhaps you will consider doing some serious study about the psychology and methods of sin. I can recommend a good sermon series on this exact topic by Ps Jeff Crippen.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=crc&keyworddesc=&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Domestic+Violence+and+Abuse
I shall submit this suggestion to Mr Bradrick at his FB page too. 🙂
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I’m not surprised at all, and that is sad.
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Also, please do not think from what I wrote above that I think Mr Bradrick’s views on patriarchy and theology are admirable. I do not. I simply wanted to point out the typical abuser language and tactics that Doug Phillips used (as reported in Bradrick’s FB post.)
I agree with you Julie Anne that the big thing needed is for all those who have followed VF-type principles to wake up to how damaging and and extra-Biblical those beliefs really are.
I believe that some of the people who have been part of VF and other such groups may indeed wake up, come out and get their minds cleaned up from all that wonky teaching. And the way to encourage them to make that transition is to respectfully invite them, question them, nudge them, and graciously suggest other options to them, to help them see the need to re-calibrate their thinking right down deep.
Usually the false beliefs people hold that are most binding and hampering are held at the pre-suppositional level. Getting people to see their presuppositions (bring them to the light) and then re-evaluate them, is an incremental task.
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After suffering through much of the Bradrick “call to arms” video posted above I was shocked to hear this (about minute 6:00)…
“The Gospel is the applicability of the word of God to every issue that confronts the word of God”
This is not what the Bible calls the Gospel. My definition comes from 1 Cor 15 and has nothing directly to do with the issues Bradrick talked about.
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Second thought…
If your view of what the Gospel is is skewed, the rest of your “world view” will also be off of true.
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That video was painful to listen to, but would have made an excellent drinking game had it been available way back in my much younger years…down a shot each time Peter says “battle lines”, and thankfully you’d probably be passed out before it reached the halfway point.
And the first battle line is……..drum roll please…………FEMINISM!
>:-o
Didn’t see that one coming!!
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Joe Morecraft responded to Bradrick via his wife Becky’s Facebook account .
Am I the only one who thought that was weird? A Major League Patriarchy guy sends a message through his wife’sFacebook account?
The only explanation I could come up with is that Morecraft must be too manly and patriarchal to even have a Facebook account.
He sure knows a lot about Reformed rap, though!
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Barbara: Thanks for pointing out the signs of abuse. If you read other sites which promote patriarchy, you will read discussion about the “sin” – – you know, the adultery issue, but not much is said about abuse. Peter Bradrick and everyone who was under his authority in any way was used to further his agenda. This is an abuse of power and control. In other words, everybody at Boerne Christian Assembly, many outside of the church in Phillips’ sphere of influence were spiritually abused.
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NuttShell: Welcome!
You are absolutely right. Those of us on the outside think how could this have stayed under wraps so long? Someone usually will spill the beans Think of this one: how could a 10-year relationship have remained under wraps? 2 words: power and control. The 10 month issue is understandable when you realize how powerful Phillips has been for years in his business dealings with people. Whomever called him out has had to do things very carefully with all their ducks in a row because you can be sure Phillips pulled no stops at threats. I wonder how many people he has sued besides Jen/Mark Epstein and Joe Taylor, and how many we don’t know about that were settled?
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“the rotten fruit of … bad teachings.” Well put, JA. This mess is a whole bunch of bad fruit rotting away.
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You can read the comments on Bradrick’s wall – – the focus is on Phillips and the affair, but people are quick to defend Phillips’ legacy. Folks, the legacy of Phillips was based on fraud. It was never about God (even God was used), it was about building Phillips and his empire by using people. “Interns” is another word for: free help. Yet to be an intern at Vision Forum was a highly respected honor.
It is going to be very eye-opening for people when they realize they were being used as a pawn: Phillips “legacy.” I’m pretty sure the focus on the Titanic’s “save women and children first” motto was a foundational part of this so-called legacy. It sounded very noble and honorable. Years ago, I remember thinking about that Titanic hype wondering why Phillips was resurrecting this old story as if there was something new that he had grabbed hold of that had never been said. That should have been a warning flag right there. This is a method of spiritual abusers. They suck you in emotionally by stories. To have men be that honorable and noble to save woman and children first was an appealing thought: Yes, I do want to raise my boys to protect and honor women and children.
The reality is that this man whose platform was to protect women and children is a complete fraud. If his home was the Titanic, Phillips walked off the ship, into a smaller and safe vessel for himself, abandoning his wife and 8 children and did not look back. He left his wife and children on a sinking ship – – the sinking ship that HE crashed into an iceberg. That’s some captain! Captain Phillips did this with his church and business as well.
Folks, if this man’s words drew you into an idea of godly family, godly fatherhood, godly motherhood, he employed methods to draw you in. His whole foundation was skewed. You have been sold more than just “godly family.” Please look around and read the stories of families who have been shattered because of this man’s teachings. You must discard everything about this man and his teachings and get back to the basics in God’s Word. It’s going to take some time to erase the old tapes, but it will be so worth it.
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Exactly! Throw it OUT!
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The Feminism thing is huge and it makes sense. In the Patriarchy movement, wombs are very sacred. If women are “distracted” by outside employment, gaining independent thinking, they are less likely to have the number of babies required to subdue the earth. Reconstructionism relies on women and their wombs in bearing children to further their agenda. (Now doesn’t it make sense why Kevin Swanson was all about those embedded fetuses in wombs – – – it’s like the womb is holy ground for these peeps. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, find Kevin Swanson in categories on my sidebar and you will find articles.)
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Can’t wait for the “bombshell” story TW Eston has promised early next week. Is anyone able to confirm that Doug’s young female victim is now safe? Since her family was caught up in this movement does anyone know whether they are offering her support or would they be inclined to blame and shame? I hope she’s all right.
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Yea, isn’t that odd? Who knows with these guys!
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Dottie: I’ve heard different accounts of where the female victim is. Most say that she is safe. What that means would probably depend on how entrenched her support system is involved in this Patriarchy movement as you wisely alluded.
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Speaking of the Titanic story I remember one Christian leader share how some “men” dressed up as women to be able to get on a lifeboat. This leader shared that catastrophes like this bring out what the real character is of people. Sadly rather than women and children first it sounds like Doug Phillips is one of those that had he been on the Titanic would have dressed like a woman to get on a lifeboat.
Leaders like DP and C.J. Mahaney can teach all they want about “true repentance” but sadly won’t practice it when it applies to them.
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The story of the Titanic is a powerful one of HUBRIS – look up the definition and you’ll see that it fits Doug Phillips to a ‘T’. We all know where the ship ended up.
I wonder if, when he related that story, he recognized the foreshadowing? Oh, the irony.
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I know what you mean, Pam. I barely got through it myself; I felt a lot like those kids looked at the 3:00 mark. But I was curious to find out exactly what they are… The 27 Things That ALL “True Christians”™ Must Hate And Fear.
I hope Mr. Bradrick has improved his public speaking skills in the past 3 years.
More than that, I hope he’s realized that Phillips’ whole philosophy of politics and family values was pure self-aggrandizing fluff. At the very least, I hope he sees now that the real enemy is not ‘out there’. Whatever ‘battle lines’ (ugh) we think there are in society, the most important front is within our own minds and hearts. If we as Christians fail to treat each other and our neighbours with love, compassion and understanding, no other battle will really matter. We’ll have already lost the war.
So ironic… Bradrick was so obsessed with all those Enemies Of The Gospel ‘out there’, he failed to see the wolf right in front of him…
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Serving – yea, wasn’t that battle talk over the top? Remember CON’s church website used to be filled with soldiers/battle garb. t feel like I need to do a post comparing Phillips and CON – – all of that battle talk, using fear to intimidate. This story cannot remain about the “affair” – that wasn’t really affair because it wasn’t “Biblical” junk.
I don’t know that I ever mentioned here that Chuck O’Neal said he’d go OT on someone. I have heard this same story verified by other sources. I think Phillips and Chuck O’Neal have a few things in common as far as abuse tactics.
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In response to Joel Frederick at 3:50 AM who said, “If your view of what the Gospel is is skewed, the rest of your ‘world view’ will also be off of true,” Julie Anne @ November 30, 2013 @ 7:20 AM said, “Exactly! Throw it OUT!”
I think I know what your drift was, Julie Anne, and wouldn’t it be great if only it were that easy — out with the bad, in with the good!
But the reality of recovery from spiritual abuser and doctrinal dupers is that we find it will probably be a long recalibration and an oh-so-slow shift with many incremental changes along the way. But that’s how it goes for most of us as we seek to return our trajectory to a “True-Gospel North.”
These off-kilter systems are like … well … *systemic* poison that affects our entire being. It’s like taking a bucket of muddy rocks and water, and trickling in clean water slowly to get rid of the guck. It takes time, but things will get clearer and cleaner over time.
The men, women, and children who have been used by Doug Phillips may find themselves jump-starting that re-journey with just one shocking question, noodling its way through their heart: “This man misused his platform for teaching, and there was no integrity between what he said and what he live — what else in his system is false?”
Those who have been on that road realize that discernment often comes in the aftermath of such bitter betrayal and deep disappointment. But that takes time after the initial disorientation of whatever shocking circumstances woke us up to our having a theology on auto-pilot, or otherwise out-sourcing our spirituality to people we put too much trust in.
Many of us who are survivors eventually find ourselves exploring other questions beyond “How did this happen?” and “What’s false in their system?”. These new questions can be equally disturbing and requiring us to further learn to discern and change the direction of our trajectory. For instance: “What in me made/makes me susceptible to falling prey to people like Doug Phillips?”
And even those who have profound and complex systems of theology, or even neat and tidy ones, with answers for every question before you ever ask it — may need to consider how their views and worldview sets people up for abuse. How do the underlying assumptions potentially lead people astray? (That has been a theme emerging from the 400 comments on the recent thread about Chalcedon, and other systems that claim Reconstructionism as their core, and systems that Chalcedon disclaims as being other than real Rushdoonyism.)
None of this means we as victims-turning-into-survivors were stupid or are hopeless. Spiritual abusers who apparently get away with their tactics for a long time know how to work the system and trick every kind of person. So maybe … just maybe … our having been taken in by a huckster now means that our journey with Jesus will be more dependent on the Holy Spirit and not on sets of rules and regulations and FAQ lists. It will be more real, and transform us toward true Christlikeness. There will be constructive change beyond the destructive pain … but Recovery 101 starts where we find ourselves — just starting to process the revelation of dis-integrity of the abusers and their systems of support, and starting to figure out some of the why’s for it, and the wherefore’s of what we shall now do.
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Julie Anne states:
“Those who have followed this blog for a while can see this pattern fits completely with so many other signs of abuse of power: shunning, lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, different public personality than in private, etc.”
I am extremely proud of how meticulous your research is in identifying the numerous abuses within all facets of the patriarchal movement. Even for me, it’s an eye opener. Brain washing is the phrase that comes to mind with these leaders. They are inventing spiritual wars where there isn’t a war to begin with, and fighting against the freedom that Jesus established for all Christians. In my humble opinion, homeschooling should equate that of what is taught in public school, and nothing more. Reading; Writing; Arithmetic; US History, including why we are proud to be an American, which also includes the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, instead of badmouthing the US Government as being the evil force, or empire; World History, and yes, P.E., Home Ec, even for boys as well as girls. Your blog reveals the evils within those who claim to have great knowledge and wisdom, leading God’s people astray to fight in spiritual wars that are non-existent to begin with. They invented the war. Therefore, we fight back!!
Ed
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“I would like to say to Mr Bradrick: now that you have seen that Doug Phillips is someone you could never have imagined, maybe you might give some thought to the possibility that your understanding of evil has been somewhat shallow.”
What an interesting thought, barbara. Something to dig deeper on. Most likely this guys view of what is evil was defined for him in detail for many years. And it was around the whole culture war scenerio. But the whole time he was actually following evil and making an idol of it. I sure hope he sees that and goes back to square one on everything he thought was truth. But I rather doubt it.
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The Titanic analogy itself is deeply flawed. While within the classes, men sacrificed for women, women of the lesser classes were much more likely to die than the men in first class. The men did NOT sacrifice their lives “for the least of these” – they did so for their own kind, and no more.
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Giving Peter Bradrick the label of “destroyer” seems ironic in light of the fact that God used this term (in Daniel 9:27) of the avenging force He sent against Jerusalem for her wickedness: in the literal Hebrew, “upon the wing of abominations cometh destroyer” (wing = summit or height of abomination, the extreme far point of wickedness, triggering the divine sending of the destroyer to level the wicked city).
I have to add that Brad/FuturistGuy’s following comment was very powerful and so very true: “None of this means we as victims-turning-into-survivors were stupid or are hopeless.” I wholeheartedly concur, although former spokesmen have not been consistent with this outlook, as acknowledged elsewhere.
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There has been an interesting disconnect so far between the rank and file VF followers and the leaders of the patriarchy movement.
Over and over again on the forums and social media, rank and file types have defended DP and his repentance, offering various excuses, etc. I thought at the time the silence from the other leaders was deafening – no paeans, defenses, or even comment (except from Doug Wilson, who is notably an outsider to this group as he has his own empire). I suspected at the time that this meant that there were “bad facts” that were much worse than the initial reports, and this has proven to be the case.
As more information has become public, we have seen various high-profile insiders take more aggressive public positions, perhaps beginning with Scott Brown and the “apostasy” sermon. They appear to have come to the conclusion that many outsiders already held – DP is likely not a lapsed saint, but a raging hypocrite, and always has been.
So what I wonder is, how long, if ever, before this filters down to the rank and file and the True Believers?
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“So ironic… Bradrick was so obsessed with all those Enemies Of The Gospel ‘out there’, he failed to see the wolf right in front of him…”–Serving Kids in Japan
Yes. I’ve seen this in my own spiritual abuse case. It’s why I was disappointed after they pried the wicked pastor out of his office, that those surrounding him were not fired, as well. They did not have what was needed to protect the sheep from the wolf. They had supported and empowered him, and aided in the abuse by carrying out orders and absorbing the lies. They needed to step down and detox.
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I am close to this mess. The fallout HAS caused me to reevaluate things Biblically, one “tenet” at a time. I like your post Brad FG. I’m specifically thinking of college and employment for our daughters when they reach that age, where previously we would only consider college online. I would welcome Biblical support, articles, links etc. besides the mere reference of Lydia etc. as we grapple with these issues. Forgetting Doug for a moment, the realities of modern day college life for young ladies can be devastating.
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LadyLydia, From a mere financial standpoint, college makes almost no sense, financially or morally. Ask financial guy Dave Ramsey or go to his FB page. There are so many many people who have bemoaned their waste of time and money in that respect. That is a whole other line of *beliefs*…thou must have a college degree or thou wilt die a worthless person. (not true) I do know what you mean about reevaluating things. It IS OK to look out for each other and be a family IN LOVE. the thing about DP is that a counterfeit has a shadow of the truth. Trust God! Be at peace in the one true God who loves you!! 🙂
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Thanks A B Lever! Love your name. 🙂 I remember when our kids figured out the meaning of the authour’s name for the Pearables stories!
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LadyLydia … glad you found something I wrote of help.
In case you take a notion to browse other stuff I’ve written on spiritual abuse, systems, and recovery, the link below is to an “index” post. There I list the various articles on my *futuristguy* blog, and give a sentence or two or a few so you can figure out what might best answer the issues you’re interested in at the moment. The articles are a mixture of entry-level (mainly in Part 4) to intermediate. A few things are advanced.
Anyway, perhaps there will be something there that helps with guidance for a pressing need. Meanwhile, may your search and research be blessed as you continue to build discernment and decision-making for a more hope-filled future …
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/index-spiritual-abuse-recovery-posts/
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LadyLydia … another place for a series of articles that could prove of help is over at Barb Orlowski’s blog, on the *Resources* page. Especially see the *Articles* section on the right-hand sidebar and the “Spiritual Abuse and …” list.
http://www.churchexiters.com/resources/
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AB Lever, Ramsey’s never been my cup of tea, and recently has unfortunately shown himself to be interested in lauding the wealthy rather than ministering to the poor: http://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/20-ways-that-dave-ramseys-blog-turned-my-stomach-today/
College can be a very smart choice for many reasons. I wouldn’t have my job without it, and neither would a number of people with whom I interact on a daily basis. It’s not just a nice preparation, but a vital one in our fields.
Cheers,
Tim
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You all may have already done this but Scott Brown’s departure from his former church shows his character also. It seems he was making money on the side with Vision Forum unbeknownst to the other leaders in the church. Interesting stuff.
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A B Lever: As of Oct 2013, current unemployment rate for high school graduates: 7.3%; those with a college degree: 3.8% (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm). Median earnings for those with college degree: $55,700 for FT; those with high school diploma: earn $21,900 LESS. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/21/education/21college.html?_r=0) And numerous non-financial benefits as well. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brazen-life/why-your-college-degree-h_b_3000592.html
I don’t believe college is for everyone but in today’s society, people need to get additional training beyond high school. And, I believe that college was just taboo for women and not men in the DP groupies. If men were not “allowed” to attend college, please enlighten me. 🙂
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Well, A B Lever, I’m not one of them. Although I haven’t “used my degree”, so to speak, I’d never have been able to work in Japan without it. And college opened my eyes up to the rest of the world, in ways which I might never have experienced just staying at home.
I hope you didn’t mean to suggest that attending college betrays a lack of trust in God. I certainly don’t mean to suggest that anyone without a degree will “die a worthless person”. But it does open doors, and increase the options for a young person to make his or her way in the world. I’d hate to limit those options for anyone on ideological grounds.
Have a good evening everyone. I’m off to church. 🙂
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Carmen, you are so right. I have been rewatching Titanic documentaries all week. So many parallels can be made!
Unrelated: Did you all know that Aussie billionaire Clive Palmer is building Titanic II, a ship that will be a near-replica of Titanic?
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Lady Lydia – I think you should be encouraging your girls to pick something they are interested in and go for it! Here’s why – with a college/University education they’ll have far more choices in life, they’ll meet lots of interesting people whom they’ll form life-long ties with, they’ll be stimulated in many areas of learning, and they’ll find out how much they DON’T know -it’ll turn them into lifelong learners. I certainly have never regretted my University education and neither have our four children. I’d be encouraging them to take their pick – there’s many interesting opportunities out there. You’ll get to learn new things, too!
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Carmen, not anti-education here at all. We are all life long learners in our family. I have the token B.A. and then went on to get a post graduate degree. I question the means by which one gets the education today and from whom. We only have to read the news today to see countless foolish college “professors” spouting a worldview we do not share and girls who go missing, get date raped or worse. 😦
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This talk of education reminds me of that young girl in Afghanistan that was shot and left for dead for wanting and advocating education…by who? Religious nut jobs. This is the land of the free. American Religious whack jobs restricting education to girls and women need to move to Afghanistan and wear a white shirt with a button up vest, and join the Taliban.
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I went to a private Baptist College. It was great, and I got 2 BAs in 4 1/2 years. There were no instances of crime or rape on campus or in the college town. But this was back in the late 70s.
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Lady Lydia – all I can tell you is that we have three girls and one son who went off at 18 to Universities (one clear across the country) and not one of those calamities befell them. We brought them up to make good, sound choices. I’m sure you’ve done the same.
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Your’e right, Ed. I did a post on Malala:
Homeschooled Adult Daughters Held Captive at Home, Prevented from Getting College Education
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Thank you, chapmaned24.
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A B Lever,
For the most part I’m going to cast my lot with both you and Tim when it comes to assessing the value of post-secondary education. I agree that no college degree is a guarantee of a high income. On the other hand, college education, often including advanced degrees, is a prerequisite to an increasing number of careers. In my state you even have to have a college degree, with a specific major, to become a real estate appraiser. An increasing number of employers are requiring a bachelors degree for almost menial jobs. It seems to be something of a weeding strategy, and it maybe not a bad one.
Even if one is not interested in a career that requires a college degree, a well rounded liberal arts education can prove invaluable. The economic value of a liberal arts education may be indirect, but it is not insignificant. Note that I am calling for a “well rounded” liberal arts education. One can be obtained at a public university, but the challenge will be to avoid indoctrination parading as education. Christian liberal arts colleges will also tend to come with indoctrination — just with a different set of values. No matter what, the rule is test everything, hold on to what is good and true. c.f. 1 Thess 5:21. Understand that the goal is an increase in the overall quality of life, not necessarily including higher income. Maybe it would be better to say that the goal is to lay the foundation for the acquisition of that wisdom which comes only as one learns to apply knowledge to experience.
My own thought is that one is not truly educated until such time as they have developed a firm conviction of the depths of their own ignorance. The opposite also holds true. I risk giving offense, but I have observed again and again that the very people who are most unyieldingly convinced of their own intelligence, often exhibiting what comes across as thinking themselves omniscient, also tend to be the least educated. A good formal education, if free from over-much indoctrination, will cure such tomfoolery in a hurry.
So, get as much education as possible, but be careful, and be selective. Know your goals, and recognize that no diploma, even for the professions, is an automatic ticket to a good income. In fact, it may be that pursuing an education primarily as a means to earning money is, in reality, a sure ticket to lifelong dissatisfaction.
And keep Jesus, who is truth, at the center of it all.
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LadyLidia,
My brother in law discussed an issue with me about a year ago. Isolation from the “world” is not a good thing. We are in the world, like it or not. As the great song goes, Our Children Are Our Future. You teach them well, as they grow, and you release them to the world to make their own decisions adult decisions. If they know right from wrong, they will make the right decisions, tripping on the way. Let them trip, and fall. They will get back up again. So there are professors out there that have an agenda. So what? Will your children be influenced? If so, it is still their decision. There are Christians on the left, and there are Christians on the right. Our society has changed since the 60’s big time. But this is still America where our children can make a difference…if we let them. All this religious crap needs to be far removed. Christianity teaches us and our children how to deal with the world while in the world. It doesn’t teach us to isolate ourselves in our little religious cliques, stocking up on canned goods, and waging a fictitious war on women and girls. Be FREE!
Ed
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You are so right, Ed. It is shocking when homeschool kids who have been isolated get in the real world when some have been prevented from even talking with anyone outside their church and family. It was not uncommon for me to read on homeschool groups that homeschool moms would not allow their children to play with their neighbors – even if they were Christian – if they went to public school. Umm . . . at what point are they going to be allowed to interact with those outside their community?
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Chapmaned24….., you’re not a college professor are you?:-). I’m not sure if you are talking to me, but it’s NOT a way to keep the conversation going. Logic and compassion are warranted…….
This talk of education reminds me of that young girl in Afghanistan that was shot and left for dead for wanting and advocating education…by who? Religious nut jobs. This is the land of the free. American Religious whack jobs restricting education to girls and women need to move to Afghanistan and wear a white shirt with a button up vest, and join the Taliban.
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nuttshell “I don’t believe college is for everyone but in today’s society, people need to get additional training beyond high school.” WOW, I completely agree.I have met HS grad that cannot tell time on an analog clock, are out of touch regarding history, and current events.etc. Pathetic prep for the REAL world. Gov and liberal stats do not impress me a bit. They definitely have financial interest in the average college mindset and usage. Most college grads that I have met are NOT using their degree and have nasty/stressful student loan debt.. There is pressure now to go on to get a Masters degree (more $$) and then what. One friend did just that and last year got a nice $3,000 pay CUT due to alleged budgetary constraints. I have relative who were invited to be part of Mensa, have multiple degrees but are just now getting a taste of REAL life, now that they are done with the educational hamster wheel. I am not at all against education/learning. It is highly questionable as to what if any real learning/wisdom gets imparted in the overpriced sanctuaries called college. Been there, done that. So disappointing. (said in relaxed tone , not anger or pride) BTW, I went to please my family and sincerely gave it my best.
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Not only that, JA…but HOW will they interact with those outside their community? With disdain? With a mean streak? With a “I’m better than you” attitude? Yep, much negative consequences at stake.
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LadyLidia,
No, I am not a college professor, however I was in the US Navy for quite a few years. I have been around the world to several countries. I’ve seen some of the worst, and some of the best. We are Americans. We are free. I am sorry that you didn’t like my comment, but it is true about the religious nut jobs. I call a spade a spade, and not afraid to do so. Freedom is what Jesus was all about. Not bondage.
Ed
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So true, Ed – pride that they are doing things the godly or Biblical way. Where the love of Christ in arrogance?
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Wowee… the home educators we have known are very involved with neighbors, community etc. I cannot relate to the isolation that you all are talking about. In fact, that is more like the clique we see with the public schoolers. Most around us only leave the community if there is a school sports event, and then they hang very close to each other. The home schoolers are known for being more social with all types. But then we were never part of the DP cult church stuff.
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A B Lever – -You’re right – – homeschool groups can be very diverse. The DP side is one end of the spectrum.
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Well, I see that while I was drafting my previous comment a number of other comments were posted that made mine superfluous. That, however, will not keep me from typing on.
I recognize that for some college just won’t fit. For some, while formal education beyond high school will be of value, vocational training may make the most sense. However, even when it comes to vocational training, caution is merited, especially in matters of faith where the lines between what is vocational and what is advanced learning are not so clear.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer observed that American seminaries were merely vocational institutions. Surely there are exceptions, but I recommend that a prospective student give careful thought to whether particular Bible school and/or seminary training will prepare them to do more than just pass along received indoctrination. Just as a mechanic who pretends to be an engineer may do great harm, so also even greater harm will likely be done by those who are given to believe they are accomplished theologians when the reality is that they have done nothing more than receive other men’s opinions. There are way too many of these “theologians,” and I submit that out of their pride born of ignorance much spiritual abuse is perpetrated.
Actually, I believe that Bible schools and seminaries train people to fill illegitimate roles, but that is a topic for another place and time.
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Mike — I was not aware of that particular situation, but I have read about Scott Brown as spiritually abusive at a former church. I am taking notes. There are indeed patterns among church leaders connected with the Homeschool Movement.
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Whether you are impressed with gov or journalism stats or not does not negate the quantitative validity of the fact that those with college degrees have less unemployment and higher earnings over their lifetime. Not to mention, they tend to be better critical thinkers. All three of my kids are working in jobs that they could not have if not for a college degree. And all three are helping people in some capacity.
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NuttShell,
You had said:
“Not to mention, they tend to be better critical thinkers.”
I agree. A person can better weigh the Pros and Cons when educated, otherwise, there will always be preconceived bias.
Ed
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Where is An Attorney? He has some very good thoughts on helping children learn to make good decisions. If I recall, it involves asking the child questions and getting them to think things through. I would suggest that this is an area where homeschoolers are better equipped to help children than traditional public schools. A public school teacher just does not have the one-on-one time to guide students through the hard work of analytical thinking. If homeschooling parents will teach their children how to think, and not just what to think, their children may well be much better equipped than public schooled children to deal with life in the world, including life at university. (Parents of public school children can also teach theri children to think.) The only other thing I can think of is to try to shelter our children forever, but that is not consistent with what Jesus would have. “I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.” (John 17:15, ESV)
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Joelfrederick 3:40am quoted Bradrick: ‘“The Gospel is the applicability of the word of God to every issue that confronts the word of God”
This is not what the Bible calls the Gospel. My definition comes from 1 Cor 15 and has nothing directly to do with the issues Bradrick talked about.’
Amen. This really gets at one of the roots of the problem.
Similarly, Mr Phillips had a line in his VF bio along the lines of “He realized a man’s witness for Christ consisted not so much in what he knew, but in how he lived his life AS A HUSBAND AND FATHER” (caps mine)
This is not what the Bible calls a witness (or martyr).
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A B Lever,
While one of your earlier comments prompted mine this evening, I am not at all intending to push back at you. I am just trying to share some thoughts that might (or might not) be helpful to some. If you find anything of value in anything I say, well and good. However, I suppose it would at best be ironic were I to be suggesting that children be taught how to think, while at the same time telling you what to think.
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Good catch, Dave AA. This is why I keep saying Vision Forum followers MUST throw out the baby with the bathwater. The whole doctrine is mixed with a lot of truth PLUS extra-biblical ideas to promote Phillip’s agenda. “Godly Fatherhood and Godly Husband” were – – claimed to be for men’s spiritual growth, but now some are wondering if it Phillips was cashing in on those ideas since he obviously didn’t practice what he preached.
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Gary W,
You had said:
“I would suggest that this is an area where homeschoolers are better equipped to help children than traditional public schools. A public school teacher just does not have the one-on-one time to guide students through the hard work of analytical thinking.”
Last I recall, that was what “homework” was all about. A public school teacher assigns homework, and the child spends time at home doing school work. Then the parent/child interaction with one one one time can take place.
School is for “input” and application in tests. Decision making is in homework, when studying for the tests.
Just for fun, when I used to take tests in the Navy, on a bubble sheet, using a #2 pencil, the old saying was, “When in doubt, “C”.
Ed
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This is why I keep saying Vision Forum followers MUST throw out the baby with the bathwater. The whole doctrine is {MIXED WITH A LOT OF TRUTH} PLUS extra-biblical ideas to promote Phillip’s agenda.
Arent you contradicting yourself a bit here? Why throw out the WHOLE LOT OF TRUTH? My emphasis in brackets only here. How about keep the Truth, reject the rest?
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Ed,
Yes, public school education will work best only where the child is also being taught at home, even if the only contribution the parent(s) make is to make sure the child is doing their homework. Unfortunately, not every child has parents who even care enough to do this.
As to “When in doubt, “C”. I totally understand. I wouldn’t necessarily use “C” but there were all too many multiple guess exams where I would mark all unknown questions with the same letter, figuring I would get a certain percentage correct just on the basis of statistical probability. By the time I was done with formal education, however, the test graders had started to address this strategy by counting more answers wrong than were actually wrong. I thought it highly unfair.
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AB Lever said:
I have listened to Dave Ramsey and certainly don’t see how you can imply that Ramsey thinks “from a mere financial standpoint, college makes almost no sense.” I certainly haven’t seen that in what he says. Ramsey is big on being debt free and wouldn’t want someone to go to college if it means taking on debt. He has also questioned people major in college when the prospect for a good paying job in that field isn’t good (such as Art History).
Ramsey also pushes going to a cheaper state school vs. a more expensive private school.
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I agree with you, Steve240. My teens took his high school course and I facilitated it with a bunch of homeschoolers – about 25. It was very good. You’re right about what he says about college – – no need to spend exorbitant amount of $$ for a “name,” when you can go to the generic state college for a fraction of the cost.
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Long time lurker, first time poster. What has brought me here is trying to better understand the young women I’ve come to know personally over the last year who have been severely damaged by biblical patriarchy, spiritual and physical abuse in their religious environments, and yes, autocratic fearful, ignorance based homeschooling. The plural of anecdote is not data of course — I speak only of personal observation and a long life lived. Nevertheless, these young women who have tried to venture out into the world beyond their homeschool patriarchy silos are damaged, not by the world, but by being unprepared to deal with it. They were crippled before they ever left home. It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there and the enormous cognitive dissonance it creates when the fabric of their childhood unravels.
With all due respect, if these young, dependent, overly sheltered homeschooled young women had been exposed to the women I know who are in college environments, my professor friends and peers, or if they had met the “worldly” young people I know in college themselves or recently graduated, maybe these stay at home girls might have learned about basic things, such as what inappropriate touching is, and words such as “no.” As someone pointed out regarding Phillips’ abused victim, she would have been safer in college than as a stay at home daughter. Keeping her under cover of her father and Phillips didn’t protect her — it groomed her to be an abuse victim. Sending a homeschooled, sheltered son or daughter to college or otherwise out into the world without having ever learned to question authority and think critically would be dangerous and could be devastating but the problem isn’t with the college. It’s the mindset that elevates unquestioning obedience to earthly male authority and teaches her that she’s nothing but a womb waiting to be filled.
I firmly believe that I keep my children “safe” by equipping them with knowledge, skills, and the ability to think critically, by teaching them how to listen, and how to make good decisions for the day when I’m not there.
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Ruth!!! I’m so glad you stopped lurking. That was an amazing comment.
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“It’s not the world of college that devastates them, it’s the lies they were taught before they got there.”
Ruth, what lies are you referring to being taught at home? What you describe doesn’t sound like our home or ANY homeschool environment I know. Sounds like major broad brush stereotyping to me.
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Gary W
You had said:
“Unfortunately, not every child has parents who even care enough to do this.”
That is right. You can’t blame the public school system for that one. You can’t blame the so-called government public school system of being the evil empire there.
My whole point in all of this is that there is an imaginary war that the religious whack jobs are teaching. The first being feminism, hence the war on girls getting an education, outside of being barefoot and pregnant. Then the preaching of how evil the world is, including the US Government, including the public schools. It’s all brain washing. Let’s call it what it is…cultish, and dangerous…BONDAGE.
I will never ever ever forget being proselytized by a Jehovah’s Witness, when I told him that I was a Navy Veteran. He made sure that I understood that man’s Government is EVIL, in that it does not bring the promised Utopia.
I practically laughed in his face. My roommate just tells the JW’s that he’s a Wiccan, and they start running from the door.
I have disdain for strange religious indoctrination, such as the video at the top of this blog post, brainwashing people with fear and scare tactics about the “world”, and then have the nerve to call it Biblical. Hog wash!
Ed
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LadyLidya,
I can’t speak for Ruth, but I will ask, WHY are you afraid to send your children to college? I think you gave some very telling hints earlier about date rape, professors, and more. You are scared of the “world”. You are not prepared to let your children go. Why? Due to what you have been told about the world. Distortion. That can be translated as “lies”, not a broad stroke stereotype.
With Respect,
Ed
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Harry Ironside said that “Truth mixed with error is all error.”
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This works better with junk mail than door-to-door in-your-face types, but one guy who got on their mailing list forwarded all his JW junk mail to the local Scientology Org and all his Scientology junk mail to the local Kingdom Hall. “It’s their problem now.”
Though there is the old fannish story about faking a human sacrifice or demon summoning in the living room, like you were interrupted by the JWs (and let them see it through the door). Or the one where the guy answered the door buck naked (though that could get you up on sex charges these days).
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When somebody duckspeaks “Chew the meat, spit out the bones”, make sure he’s not trying to unload a bucket of bones on you. Cause when they say that, it’s going to be all bones and no meat.
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Maybe, but not necessarily. Hey aren’t these adults here? Able to figure things out for themselves? Keep what’s True, reject what’s not. That’s why I initially posted. To see if there were others similarly searching here. I was looking for Biblical support that cuts against the SAHD argument besides the reference to Lydia, when it is not even clear if she was married or not. I’m aware of many pragmatic arguments against SAHD, but that’s not what I asked for.
Instead I hear the “religious whack job” lingo a bit too much here. Perhaps it’s just an excuse to reject God bc let’s face it, some folks are very angry at God and need a good reason to reject Him. Of course it’s their right to do so, but be honest about it, eh? And HUG, this is not all directed at you, I’m trying to cover other posts in this reply. Peace to you.
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Ed, I really think I’d enjoy having a beer with you! If you are not a college professor, perhaps an armchair psychologist? ;-). Afraid? No. Legitimate concern based on facts? Yes. Thanks for the psychoanalysis though! Is there a fee for that? 😉
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Ed’s fun. I enjoyed having a beer with Ed last summer while at my daughter’s volleyball tournament. Wait, Ed, when was it?
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Well, it was still a bit chilly outside…it was mid to late spring. Not that long ago, really. It was early spring that I met Barb. I’d love to talk to LadyLydia over a few beers.
LadyLydia, I have been studying religious “whack jobs” for quite a few years now. It’s a hobby of mine. I have quite a few years under my belt of studying why people believe what they believe. And, I must say that I can smell a fart a mile away, so to speak. Based on my knowledge, I can tell what denomination someone belongs to, based on the lingo. It’s easy. I am not a novice at this Calvinism crap. I am constantly accused of being arrogant. I wear that as a badge of honor. I get blocked from many Calvinist Blog sites, I am told by those Calvinists that I need to seek psychological help, yada, yada, yada. I tell it like it is, and they don’t like it.
I hate spiritual abuse. This is a life altering issue. This is an ETERNAL issue. It has consequences far beyond anything that I can think of. These whack jobs want power and control, and all they have to do is to tell you it’s biblical, and people that are vulnerable have no choice but to believe what they say. No one has the courage to question their authority, as they are taught that NO ONE has the right to question a man of God.
So, lets cut to the chase, LadyLydia, you’ve been duped by religious nut jobs. With all due respect, of course.
Ed
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Thanks for the chuckle! I’ve got to get some sleep so I’m not further duped at church tomorrow! 😉
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LadyLydia,
I think it’s good that you’re considering college for your girls. (and rethinking all those tenets). We opted for the lower cost state colleges/community colleges and our girls lived at home vs the dorm. It’s been a positive experience for all of them. Actually, I’ve heard some real horror stories associated with some private Christian colleges here. No guarantee just because they’re “Christian”. Your concerns re: date rape, etc. could happen whether or not they’re in college I personally wouldn’t let the fear of those events be a factor in my decision re: college. I’m learning to step back and recognize some of the bad choices I’ve made just because of unfounded fear.
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LadyLydia said: “Why throw out the WHOLE LOT OF TRUTH? My emphasis in brackets only here. How about keep the Truth, reject the rest?”
LL, in a certain sense I agree with you: There is no need to throw out truth. But IMO the truths in patriarchy can be found outside of patriarchy in any Christian church whether Arminian or Calvinist, adult or infant baptizing, old hymn-singing or “happy clappy”. Here is a link that takes the whole “Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy” (the Vision Forum confession of faith) and sums up (the rest of the site examines each point) what in it is and is not rightly backed up from the Bible. http://tenetsofbiblicalpatriarchy.blogspot.com/p/tenets-of-biblical-patriarchy-biblical.html
To use an “eat the meat, spit out the bones” example: If you buy fish for your family, you can buy fish A that is de-boned, or fish B that you know is positively teeming with fine fishbones that could stick in your children’s throats. Would you buy fish B and telll your children to spit out the bones?
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Thank you Julie Anne. I’m having technical problems so apologies if I’ve tripled posted. Please delete my repeats but I’ve mulling this all evening rather than folding laundry and finally felt I needed to say something on behalf of the damaged women I’ve come to know who have been so hurt in these environments.
Go ahead and speak for me, Ed.
Am I stereotyping, LL? Well, I was writing anecdotally, which I conceded. However, I think examples of what I write are well documented in the spiritual abuse survivor communities and religious progressive blogsphere. As I understand it, dissonance is cited as the reason why there is, apparently, a growing discrepancy between young and old evangelicals/fundamentalists on the issue of LGBTs. Ultimately, once exposed to say, an LGBT person or a liberal feminist, they can’t reconcile what they were taught with the reality of the person they meet and have come to like and respect. This extends to a critical examination of previously accepted factual, historical, scientific, and even Biblical information as well. You see examples of this painful reassessment process over and over in the spiritual abuse survivor communities, as these people present what they were taught, analyze it, and painfully come to realize that they can no longer accept it as true.
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LadyLydia asked: “The fallout HAS caused me to reevaluate things Biblically, one “tenet” at a time… I would welcome Biblical support, articles, links etc. … as we grapple with these issues.”
Here are some links about the tenets, Lydia (replace the DOT with the real thing):
http://jensgemsDOTwordpressDOTcom/2007/06/11/are-vision-forums-biblical-tenets-of-patriarchy-biblical/ (This is part 1 of 3, scroll to the bottom of the page, click on the bottom right “Are “The Biblical Tenets of Patriarchy” Biblical? Part 2” for the second part, repeat for part 3)
http://tenetsofbiblicalpatriarchyDOTblogspotDOTcom/
And not of the tenets in particular, but all Vision Forum ideas:
http://scarletlettersblogDOTwordpressDOTcom/the-big-box-index/
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Ruth – – As soon as I saw your first comment, I started making a blog post out of it. It will be posted soon.
It is so important to discuss.
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“My whole point in all of this is that there is an imaginary war that the religious whack jobs are teaching. The first being feminism, hence the war on girls getting an education, outside of being barefoot and pregnant. ”
Just curious. Are these patriarchal dominionist cultists into midwives, homebirths, unassisted births and lotus births (google it) too? I’m not knocking any of the above, I have several friends and family member who have done one or more of the above, and a growing number of Americans are eschewing hospitals in favor of natural births in either a birthing center or at home, and I’m all for it.
I’m just wondering if the patriarchal, dominionist homeschooling crowd is all earthy crunchy about pregnancy and child birth as well. Seems like a perfect fit.
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Yes, Ri Ri, a lot of them are into that stuff. I had my last 2 babies at home. All of my quiver-full mom friends who had home births were into alternative medicine (naturopaths, chiropractors, midwives, etc), grinding wheat for bread (I still own 2 wheat grinders), etc. That is one part of this movement I think my kids may miss. I could make 5 loaves of yummy wheat bread from wheat berry into their mouths in 1-1/2 hrs. (Shoot, now that I’m talking about it, I want some. I’m not sure where to buy wheat berries around here). Oh yea, we all special ordered foods from food co-ops. Some people were into raw milk and bought it illegally. Lots of non-vaccination among this crowd. Big fear of doctors. I
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