ABUSE & VIOLENCE IN THE CHURCH, Church Discipline Process, Fred Butler, Grace Community Church, It's All About the Image, John MacArthur, Master's University / Master's Seminary, Spiritual Abuse, Women and the Church

Response to Pastor Eric Davis’ Article on “Do You See Me?” #DoYouSeeUs

Jane’s story, The Master’s University, rape, Eric Davis, John MacArthur, #DoYouSeeUs





Eric Davis, pastor of Cornerstone Church in Jackson Hole, WY, posted an article at Cripplegate.com, “Do You See Me?”: A Partial Response, in response to the account of “Jane,” an alleged rape victim whose sexual assault, kidnapping, and drugging was reportedly mishandled by The Master’s University leaders. You can read the horrific story Do You See Me?.

Before we break apart Pastor Davis’ article, I received this text from Jane, and she gave me permission to post it. I thought it was a good clarifying statement about why she posted her story.



Okay, let’s begin with excerpts from Pastor Davis’ article (in italics). Both Kathi and I will be making comments. We identify ourselves at the beginning of each comment so there is no confusion.

If you aren’t already familiar with these allegations, I’d encourage you to be thankful, and then just skip this post.

Julie Anne – Remember, Eric Davis is a pastor. Where he comes from, pastors are authority figures. As a pastor, he is telling you to be thankful and skip the post. He’d rather you not look at it. Why is that? Because it might make him or his tribe look bad?

I am concerned about the world my daughters are entering—one which too often can be a vicious place for women.

Julie Anne – From what I’ve been hearing from many women who were students at The Master’s University, it’s not the world that women need to be concerned about, it’s some of the leaders at The Master’s University and others like them who do not treat women as women of value and worth.

Kathi – If one of his daughters were to be raped by someone he knows, would he respond the same way as he did to Jane? Would he immediately believe his daughter and respond the way Jane’s parents did, or would he question that her story was “one-sided,” “maligning,” and “false”?

My post will not argue as to whether or not a crime was committed against Jane. Trained civil authorities have the responsibility to investigate such things. Nor is the purpose to present an exhaustive protocol for care for rape victims. And I am not speaking for the University, or in any kind of official capacity (they have launched their own investigation, and in the meantime, their response is here).

Julie Anne – Full stop! Pastor Davis says he is not speaking for the university, yet he was involved in this case. I have been told that he was a seminary student at The Master’s Seminary, and also an RD (resident director) at The Master’s University.  In fact, I’m pretty sure that is why he has been the most vocal and defensive in this case so far – not only because of his involvement, but his wife, Leslie’s, involvement. Leslie was Jane’s RD on campus. Jane had this to say about Leslie and her rape case:

“Leslie confronted me on multiple occasions over numerous days attempting to find fault, blame, and dissect my account of my rape. She focused on my “heart issues” and constantly accused me of lying to cover up what she thought was consensual, and initiated by hidden sins of lust.” ~”Jane”

Back to Pastor Davis’ post:

I was involved in the aftermath of this event. I was living at Master’s at the time, knew Jane, and talked to her before, during, and after the events described in the blog post. I am aware of a more complete picture, and it’s important to know that there is a significantly different perspective on how the matter was handled.

Julie Anne – Keeping in mind what I shared above about now-Pastor Davis, and now having information about how his wife responded to Jane, do you see how he can say this? It’s because he and his wife had come to the conclusion that Jane was in sin, and they were going to help her come to their conclusion (whether it was true or not did not seem to matter).

Kathi – Eric was “involved” during the event? “During??!!” Does this word stick out like a red flag to anyone? I am left to wonder if Eric knew the perpetrator because it is clear that he does not believe Jane’s story. If he knew what happened to her while the event occurred then he must think that she consented to sex. Otherwise, if he knew that she did not consent to what was happening while the events occurred, then he is a [_________________] (ja redacted Kathi’s word) for not putting a stop to her rape.

But I do want to clearly say this: Jane’s situation has been presented inappropriately.

Julie Anne – Would it be more appropriate if a man said it? It may be uncomfortable to read, but it is her story. It is not for Pastor Davis to tell a reported rape victim how her story should be presented.

I want the readers here to understand that the “Do You See Me?” post does not present some of the people it describes fairly or accurately.

Julie Anne – There is no possible way Pastor Davis could know this unless he was present as a witness in every situation that Jane was. Furthermore, opinions of people are subjective.

Kathi – I have a couple of observations regarding this statement:

  1. The Institution and all people involved with the institution are portrayed as the victim.
  2. He always mentions Jane’s name but he never mentions any names of the institutions or the people involved with the institutions. To me, he is setting a clear separation between the two. There was a relationship between Jane and the institution. Jane was a student. Why not mention The Master’s Seminary, Joe Keller (Assistant Dean of The Master’s College), Rick Holland (College Pastor), or John MacArthur?

But I can say this: “Do You See Me?” paints a picture of malicious institutions with a vendetta against Jane for being raped. The individuals shepherding her are pictured as negligent and callous towards the victim of an unconscionable crime. Yet this is not accurate.

Julie Anne – Correction, Do You See Me? paints a picture of a few leaders who had a vendetta against Jane for being raped, for going to authorities to report the rape, for going to the hospital to get a rape kit done, all without getting their permission.

And because the blog did not give the church, counselors, or college an opportunity to fill out the story prior to posting, it is impossible for readers to make a correct and righteous judgement. By denying readers the facts—or even both sides—the post and its advocates take truth hostage to their agendas, and the victims are those naive enough to believe it.

Kathi – Eric’s concern is that the opposite side’s story is not provided. Marci is providing Jane’s story. These are Jane’s words and Marci is giving them an outlet. There is no need to provide the opposite side of the story. Let the opposite side tell their own story. Let Jane have the freedom to tell hers.

Julie Anne – The only agenda I have is seeing truth exposed and victims having voices. (Please note the added “s” on victim and voice. That was intentional.)

God’s people are to provide skilled care to those who have been sinned against. We are called to demonstrate compassion. To listen.

Julie Anne – It’s important to remember Pastor Davis’ frame of reference when he wrote these words. In his eyes, Jane is guilty, too. Other known names have already publicly said that Jane is lying. One such name is Fred Butler (long-time employee at John MacArthur’s Grace to You program):



And let’s also not forget how his wife, Leslie, assumed Jane was guilty:

“Leslie confronted me on multiple occasions over numerous days attempting to find fault, blame, and dissect my account of my rape. She focused on my “heart issues” and constantly accused me of lying to cover up what she thought was consensual, and initiated by hidden sins of lust.” ~”Jane”

Let me just add, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that tells me that The Master’s University has people who “provide skilled care” with someone who is sexually assaulted. I hope that problem is remedied.

To support a victim like Jane, we must exercise the utmost diligence. Advocates must keep truth and love a high priority. We must be careful.

Kathi – He states that we are called to: be compassionate, listen, notify police, support with the utmost diligence, then follows this up with, “We must be careful.” What is there to be careful about? When advocating for trauma victims, there is nothing to be careful about except to make sure that the victim’s needs are top priority.

“Truth and Love” – code words for her sin needed to be dealt with.

Rather than a recipient of responsible care based upon a thorough inquiry into the truth, she seems to have become leverage for maligning. When the dust settles I wonder if Jane’s name will have been dragged through the mud on account of the article’s slander and inaccuracies involving serious accusations.

Kathi – Eric, there is no wondering here. You have already started the process of dragging Jane’s name through the mud.

Eric allows no comments on his post. Why? Is he afraid to answer questions about how much he knows about what happened to Jane before, during, and after her rape?

Eric’s inability to validate Jane’s story makes it more difficult for victims to come forward with their own. If the women of his church see how he treated this victim of rape, how likely will they be to tell their own stories of rape and abuse to him, wondering if he will believe them?

117 thoughts on “Response to Pastor Eric Davis’ Article on “Do You See Me?” #DoYouSeeUs”

  1. This story’s also exploding all over Wartburg Watch.
    Two postings with about 700 comments to date, and TMU’s “concerned Christian” attack dogs have come out of nowhere with the usual party-line defenses.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Based on the approach, it sounds as though Leslie wanted “Jane” to be guilty.

    That’s very troubling.

    The leading questions, the inferences, accusations, and interrogation are outside the scope of handing a rape victim. I’m shocked they didn’t have training for situations such as this. Or perhaps this is how they were trained.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. If I could I would use profane language. &&%^%$ ()(&^^%&90 ))( ((8&&^^)_–**&7^ There. It doesn’t feel any better. Seriously. I would love to see that man and wife experience rape. Then they can come back with their tails between their legs.

    I had a very naive friend say to me as I was going to therapy for sexual abuse : ” If I was about to get raped I would call out to Jesus and the rapist would jump off and run away”
    It is the epitome of everything Christians don’t understand about rape.

    Liked by 2 people

  4. Great post. Thanks for writing it! It gives me much better context/clarity. Light bulb went on… I had missed the obvious until you drew me a map. Hmmmm….John MacArthur, Rick Holland, are the only ones exposed by name in the article (that I can remember), but there are plenty of other people involved beside them and the rapist, friends (not friends)/seminary students & their girl friends…etc. who are probably not sleeping real well these nights/want to squash the truth. Particularly since Jane already has one witness ready to corroborate her story. The plot thickens… Jane I do see you and I believe you. Thank you for having the courage to speak up!

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Words cannot describe how utterly despicable this man’s response to Jane’s story is. It is nothing but victim-shaming, blame-shifting vitriol, designed to do exactly what he is accusing Marci of doing – drag Jane’s name through the mud. What a [________]. (Feel free to fill in the blank with whatever expletive suits your fancy.)

    Liked by 1 person

  6. If a man is so committed to defending the CULT that he is part of that he claims a rape didn’t occur when he wasn’t present when it occurred , he is no better than the animal that raped. You people defending rape are degenerate DOGS, the scum of the earth.

    I hope someone in contact with Jane recommends she retain appropriate legal counsel. When the cripplegate idiot and Mr Burke claim publicly on the internet that her rape didn’t occur they just basicly restarted the statute of limitations for a civil suit.

    Jane, you need to sue the whole dam bunch, Master’s Seminary, Macarthur, Burke, and the idiot at cripplegate. Until they have to prove their allegations that you made this all up at trial, this will continue to happen to women all across this country at Christian colleges.

    The church must ask ourselves :

    What about the ones that don’t recover, leave the faith and or worse commit suicide. It happens all the time, rape victims are a high risk category. When the Christian industrial complex minimizes rape for profit it’s unacceptable and we must fight this cancer.


  7. bunkababy, I want to be careful how we express anger here. The #$%@#$ works for me, but I never want to wish harm on anyone here.

    What I really want is their eyes and heart to open to understand that God does not beat people into submission until we surrender. He has given us His Holy Spirit for gentle prodding when we are in sin. Our Christian leaders and friends should be an extension of that gentle prodding. But, once again, I do not believe Jane did anything to deserve rape. No woman does. Rape is a sinful choice made by the perpetrator.

    Liked by 3 people

  8. Julie Anne wrote:
    “… I have been told that he was a seminary student at The Master’s University, and also an RD (resident director) at The Master’s University.”

    He was a sem student at TMS (The Master’s Seminary). He also taught Physics at Masters College (now University). Leslie was an RD, not sure if Eric was.

    I don’t think Eric is in any position at all these days to make an official statement on behalf of TMU. If any official statements are issued, they will probably come from their attorney or from the top admins.

    I cringed when I read Jane’s words, “she focused on my ‘heart issues’ “. I know several young ladies who had to endure Leslie’s heart issue counseling. I think her favorite verse was:

    Jeremiah 17:9 (NASB)
    “The heart is more deceitful than all else
    And is desperately sick;
    Who can understand it?

    Easy verse to throw at young ladies while accusing them of lying. Their hearts were deceiving them. They were incapable of understanding their own sickness, but no worries. The RD knew what their heart issues were.

    Liked by 3 people

  9. Really, I haven’t been this angry over something in a while. It’s been on my mind all week. When I think of the victims I’ve sat with and listened to their experiences, I could pick out reasons why Eric wouldn’t believe them.

    She did drugs.
    He wasn’t man enough to protect himself.
    She’s not a legal citizen.
    She doesn’t speak English.
    She should have seen it coming when she agreed to meet with him.
    She wasn’t supporting him enough.
    She should have disciplined him better as a young child.
    She should not have been living with him as an unmarried woman.


  10. oops! Thanks, Kay, for catching that typo! I’ll correct that now.

    I know – the “heart issues” phrase sounds just like Sovereign Grace Ministries talk, doesn’t it?


  11. “Leslie confronted me on multiple occasions over numerous days attempting to find fault, blame, and dissect my account of my rape. She focused on my “heart issues” and constantly accused me of lying to cover up what she thought was consensual, and initiated by hidden sins of lust.”

    That’s what nouthetic counseling (now called “Biblical counseling”) typically does. I’m working on a blog post about it now.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. I grew up in fundamentalism. I still consider myself evangelical, but am angry about many things that I was indoctrinated with that I now believe are unscriptural/oppressive/leave children, especially girls/women vulnerable to predators and denies girls their dreams. Anyway, I digress, I would never have looked for/found Spiritual Sounding Board or the Warburg Watch if it weren’t for having my eyes opened from a friend who has become my sister who was abused by her husband and then further abused (Spiritually abused) by the church that should have helped her. I frantically started googling to get help/figure things out. That’s how I found the blogs.

    If I had been abused, I would likely have found the blogs also. My belief is that the readership of these blogs (or their twitter followers) predominately fall into 1 of 2 categories either abuse victims themselves, or people who personally know/love victims. My point is this. I’m reading how Jane’s story has brought other victims together and/or in contact with Julie Anne and I see people like Kay who know Leslie & commented and then there’s the woman who corroborated Jane’s story to Julie Anne.

    How do these folks even know about the story/blogs unless they are already readers/followers that fall into one of the two categories? I’m guessing they didn’t learned about it from the TMU/Cripplegate type blogs. (If they did, that’s great. I love the idea of their blogs backfiring.) i.e. To make a short story long. I’m surmising these individuals/victims or victims’ friends were already following these blogs for the reasons I stated before the story came out which adds even more credibility to Jane’s account about TMC/TMU!…

    Many in your pre-existing audience seem to know it’s true because of their experiences with TMC/TMU. So Jane is the tip of the iceberg. Makes me wonder how many icebergs are in your audiences reading/just waiting for the first one like Jane to step forward.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. To all the folks who are following the Jane Story:
    A public Facebook group called DoYouSeeUs has been created for activists and general readers. Find it here: https://www.facebook.com/ibelievejane/

    Please join the group and post any items on it that will help us all follow the story and be activists provoking systemic change in John MacArthur’s institutions …and in all Christian institutions that are mistreating victims of abuse.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. You lost me at Cripplegate. That is the blog that once posted an article insisting that helping poor people who are non-believers was ungodly unless it was tied to evangelism. No evangelism, no helping non-Christians.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Kathi – Eric was “involved” during the event? “During??!!” Does this word stick out like a red flag to anyone? I am left to wonder if Eric knew the perpetrator because it is clear that he does not believe Jane’s story.

    Oooh, good point. I suspect Leslie’s behavior towards Jane was influenced by Eric, if they were dating at the time. (unless the two of them were actually there when this went down, which would be a whole nother level, but that hasn’t been mentioned at all)


  16. To support a victim like Jane, we must exercise the utmost diligence. Advocates must keep truth and love a high priority. We must be careful.

    NO!!!! Ugh. This is where they go wrong. They have zero ability to determine ‘truth’ in this case of rape. All they should be doing is support. Determine truth = interrogate the victim and like you are the defense attorney. Bad enough in court, completely terrible and unnecessary out of it. Particularly in these circumstances, where this man supposedly didn’t go to the school.


  17. This infuriates, but does not surprise me. The whole goal of “nouthetic counseling” is to make victims of sin realize that it was really all their fault.

    And FWIW, the female “counselors” are usually more vicious than the men.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. Lea, I’ve been told that they were married at that time.

    Ah. So very likely she was taking some of her cues from him.

    (Also, is RD resident director? Do they not live in dorms? I don’t remember any married people living in dorms when I was an undergrad. Interesting.)


  19. Jane added more: “It also just happened to be right by the front door…In the main living room area…they could see everyone come and go.”

    Sorry, I’m just being nosy I guess. I figured a Christian school like this would have an all female dorm (mine were co-ed), and not allow men to live in it. So that surprises me.


  20. And more from Jane: “They’d randomly pull people into their apartment when they came home…lead bible studies…held meetings with sls…and did counseling in their living quarters. ..If Eric wasn’t at seminary he was usually home studying…and a part of the meetings.”

    I’m glad you asked, Lea. This helps me, too.


  21. I went to a college with a similar setup. The apartment, though, was outside the main dorm – attached to the lobby rather than the dorm. Not that I would walk around the dorm in my undies, but there was an expectation that the wife of the RD wasn’t walking into the living area of the dorm.

    Also, allow me a bit of soapboxing. The problem here is rooted in a misunderstanding of anger. Jane was a victim and was very angry, and for good reasons. However, the evangelicals are conditioned from day one that anger is sinful and is the tip of some sort of sin iceberg. I don’t know how the version of the story in the RD’s mind morphed from sinfully angry victim to person who had no right to be angry because it was consensual sex. Maybe it’s as simple as avoiding “messy” situations and coming up with mental excuses to walk away, even if it means lying to ourselves, but whatever it is, we need to STOP turning the victim into the abuser and the abuser into the victim.

    I’m guessing that there is a lot more that we’re missing on the abuser’s side – that is, if the abuser were a friend of Eric’s, then that relationship would cloud his ability to truly hear Jane, which would lead him to disbelieve her. This guy obviously was very skilled at being manipulative – otherwise, her friends would never have been accomplices.


  22. its’ not an “if” in their situation. Leslie and Eric were married and they lived in the apartment for the RD at then TMC’s Dixon Dorm.


  23. @ChristiantyHurts:

    Leslie reminds me of the misogynistic psycho mother from the movie Carrie.

    Woo. I have some news for you, from the words of the author (Steven King) himself.

    King based Carrie and her Mother on a REAL beaten-down schoolmate of his and her beyond-Fundamentalist Uber-Uber-CHRISTIAN mother. I don’t remember the details, but I think it’s somewhere in King’s non-fiction book about the horror genre Danse Macabre. If not there, it’d be in his other non-fiction book, On Writing (in the autobiographical first half).


  24. Mark wrote, “we need to STOP turning the victim into the abuser and the abuser into the victim”

    So true.

    Marci Preheim’s book “Little Saviors..”, published in May 2017 is really interesting. (Marci posted the original story for Jane.) Not sure how much to say. Because Marci is not naming names, I will just say when I read portions of her book, I recognized the people and ministries in her account even without their names. Sadly some people/ministries never change.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. The problem here is rooted in a misunderstanding of anger. Jane was a victim and was very angry, and for good reasons.

    Mark, I don’t disagree with you that many churches badly misunderstand anger, however I also don’t know that we have any indication that Jane’s primary first emotion was anger. It could have been shock, depression, any other emotion. The woman JA was texting said she was crying. I’m sure she was angry at some point, or many points, but I don’t think that’s why she was treated poorly by the people at the school.

    From what we’ve read, it has a lot more to do with refusing to be a good little girl and shut up and let the men folks (and women folks like the RD) just make it all go away. I’m sure after that treatment she was justifiably angry, but I’m not willing to say her anger is the reason for her treatment.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. This is sickening. Is Leslie a mind reader? How could she know whether Jane committed lust or not, since lust only occurs in our hearts and is invisible to all but God?

    Whether Jane lusted or not, that still is not an excuse for the man who had sex with her–assuming for the sake of argument that it was consensual rather than rape as Leslie claims. If it were consensual, he would still be guilty of fornication or adultery since a tango takes two. Why is no one condemning him?

    Rape is violent as well as unchaste (hence a husband can rape his wife.) It’s also illegal. If there is any suspicion of rape Master’s needs to drag the alleged perp to the authorities so Jane can have her day in court. If she is indeed lying (on rare occasions women lie about rape) they can expel her after he walks and she faces charges of perjury for lying under oath.

    For my part, I suspect Jane is telling the truth. Because the idea of this thing happening on a Christian campus is scandalous everyone chooses to bury their heads in the sand. But that will not expel the sin from the camp!

    The Truth will set you free!

    Doing the Ostrich Act frees no one.


  27. Lea, something led them to do that. If they really believed her, I think they would have taken her side, especially since she had professors who were teaching her the right way to handle this case.

    So, whether it was their preconceived notion that something like that could never happen at TMU or maybe that this guy was really smooth, or what others have mentioned that the mind’s self-protection systems made her account choppy and potentially inaccurate.

    I know of a similar case. The victim started acting out, which led to church discipline. The abuser was believed wholeheartedly until it was obvious he was lying, and even then the pastor still took his side, so he got a slap on the wrist. Instead of grace, she got repeatedly called to the pastor’s office for ‘counseling’ whenever she acted out. They picked the smooth, convincing abuser over the messy victim.


  28. Lea, something led them to do that. If they really believed her, I think they would have taken her side

    Oh you sweet summer child…


  29. I believe, sadly, that Jesus’ warning to his disciples in John 16:1-4 is applicable in this situation (and many other abusive situations). I believe we are dealing with false religion and the rotten, stinking fruit of the zeal of false “Christianity”.

    I don’t believe that repentance and course correction are possible with organizations and leaders that are fully sold out to the legalistic, authoritative, male supremacy model. I know others have a more hopeful view, that change and improvement are possible, but I’m a total skeptic on that.

    Jesus’ Warning:

    “I have told you these things so that you will not stumble or be caught off guard and fall away.

    They will put you out of the synagogues and make you outcasts.

    And a time is coming when whoever kills you will think that he is offering service to God.

    And they will do these things because they have not known the Father or Me.

    I have told you these things [now], so that when their time comes, you will remember that I told you about them.” John 16:1-4 (AMP)


  30. Lea, just giving them the benefit of the doubt on that one. My experience with college discipline was pretty harsh, but I honestly felt like these people were just deluded rather than deliberately trying to wrong me.

    But, I also know that when I’ve talked about my emotional abuse, there was, seemingly, a knee-jerk instant denial. I think there is a strong Good Samaritan reflex – it’s easier for them to deny that there is a real person needing help than for them to even entertain the thought of getting involved.

    As much as I dislike Paul Tripp, he wisely says that most of the wannabe pastors he taught had this ivory tower view of the ministry. They didn’t want to get their hands dirty dealing with real people and their needs, but instead thought it was all about understanding the theology and saying the right things. I think that leads to a pastoral reflex where pastors know they should help, but they are still trying to delude themselves into thinking that just preaching from the pulpit is all everyone needs.


  31. But… I have also been behind the scenes at a college, and the amount of antagonism from the administration towards the faculty and students is pretty shocking. I would have thought the faculty were money-grubbing incompetents from how the administration wanted to portray them. So, I’m sure that the same level of antagonism is there for the students as well.


  32. it’s easier for them to deny that there is a real person needing help than for them to even entertain the thought of getting involved.

    Here is the thing, though. They didn’t just ‘not get involved’. I could honestly understand that much more easily. Not knowing what to say in the face of trauma is common. That’s why people give food, I think, when someone has a loss. They don’t really know what to say but that’s a tangible thing they can do.

    But these people? They got involved in all the wrong ways. There is no excuse for that, apart from bad theology. I would be more willing to accept if they had made a statement like ‘we were young and did not know how to help Jane, but now we realize we went about it all wrong’. But they aren’t learning, they are just attacking and deflecting.


  33. Julie Anne – Remember, Eric Davis is a pastor. Where he comes from, pastors are authority figures. As a pastor, he is telling you to be thankful and skip the post.

    On a different note, this reminds me of the guy who said not to read that book by Ruth Tucker about her husbands domestic violence and use of theology to excuse it. They would rather you not have unapproved reading materials and unapproved thoughts, rather than obtain all the information before making up your mind. I think we could go on at length about how that’s a bad idea.


  34. Rachel Nichols said:

    Whether Jane lusted or not, that still is not an excuse for the man who had sex with her–assuming for the sake of argument that it was consensual rather than rape as Leslie claims.

    Sex cannot be consensual if the date rape drug was used. She did not have the ability to say no.


  35. Lea said:

    Here is the thing, though. They didn’t just ‘not get involved’. . . .

    But these people? They got involved in all the wrong ways.

    You’re right, but I I would go even further. I would call it abusive ways, from the way Jane described it to me. She was unrelentingly badgering to confess her supposed sin for having “caused” the rape. Reminder: the only person who causes a rape is the rapist.


  36. I would call it abusive ways

    Oh, I completely agree with you! I have a tendency to write about terrible things like this in a dry fashion. I don’t know where it came from, but without dropping f bombs incessantly it’s the only way I know to talk about it apparently.

    Sidenote on the ‘hidden lust’ nonsense. Even without the drugging, I would find it hard to believe that someone in such an environment would readily fall in bed with a total stranger. Maybe I’m projecting, because I still don’t do that now. It’s much easier to believe that someone was taking advantage of her.


  37. “Tim
    SEPTEMBER 29, 2017 @ 5:57 AM
    You lost me at Cripplegate. That is the blog that once posted an article insisting that helping poor people who are non-believers was ungodly unless it was tied to evangelism. No evangelism, no helping non-Christians.”

    From the article

    “I am becoming increasingly convinced that dispensationalists understand why social justice is outside the realm of the church, and that others—especially and ironically those in the missional movement—are rapidly losing sight of what the church’s mission is. When Tim Keller says, “It’s biblical that we owe the poor as much of our money as we can possibly give away,” Robin Hood ethics gradually eclipse the Great Commission mandate. Others may squirm, but it takes a real dispensationalist to say, “The Bible simply never commands the church to give anything to the poor of the world, other than the gospel.””

    Well, I had an entire post I was going to rant on but well, this concept is just stupid on its face. It is indicative of this mindset that if it’s not in the bible well move on. We would not have gotten rid of slavery with this mindset because the Bible is very clear that slavery is just fine with God, OT and NT in my reading. It sure was with the church fathers and the Christian nations of Europe. So was saying demons cause illnesses, people with mental health issues are demon possessed and other such total utter and complete nonsense. I am sorry I really am I am trying so hard to understand these people but I just can’t.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Lea, “But these people? They got involved in all the wrong ways. There is no excuse for that, apart from bad theology.”

    I get it, and even bad theology doesn’t excuse calling right wrong and wrong right. There are a number of missing pieces – for example, did he acknowledge it was rape?


  39. Rachel Nichols, you said “Rape is violent as well as unchaste…”
    That is NOT TRUE! Not all rape involves violence. A lot of rapists use grooming, coercive control and manipulation to rape their targets. Violence is not necessary for it to be rape.
    Any penetration of another person’s orifice(s) without that person’s consent is rape.
    And consent is the YES we say when we are free to say NO.

    In Jane’s case, she was not free to say no because she had been drugged — and been drugged without her knowledge or consent what’s more.

    In the cases of many wives who are victims of rape by their husbands, violence may not occur but there is LOTS of coercive control and implied threats. The wife may submit to the sex because she knows that if she resists the sex, her husband will punish her in multiple other ways. Or he will punish the kids — make their lives even more miserable — which is another way of punishing the wife for resisting his will.


  40. Brian, their insistence that the poor are due nothing but the words of the gospel not only flies in the face of Jesus’ teaching such as the Good Samaritan, but also Paul’s instruction in Galatians 6:10 – “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.”

    All people, believers and non-believers. All. And as my old Sunday school teacher said, “All means all.”


  41. “It’s a sure good thing a rape never happened”

    JA – Are you seriously telling me this is Fred’s current position on this, without further explanation or clarification from Fred elsewhere? Words fail me. He could say he is not convinced, finds it difficult to believe, would rather it were further investigated; but the outright denial is the mirror image of those whom he would not doubt criticise for simply believing the allegations of pastoral failure and incompetence. He should apply the same standard of scepticism he thinks we should all have about the victim’s story to the comment coming out of the institution, TMU.

    I’ve quite liked his blog, but perhaps he needs to change his priorities away from dissecting Hugh Ross and old earth creationism. And compared to the belligerence of so many YEC, what a gentleman Hugh Ross is.

    I remember Ross’ graciousness more than his arguments about OEC. (Irony alert: And isn’t that a VITAL issue for the Christian churches in the West today.)

    I shall remember Fred’s attitude here whenever I see his name. It’s the sort of thing difficult to get out of your mind.

    What shall it profit a man if he gains all the sound doctrine and theology in the world, and forfeits his compassion?

    Liked by 1 person

  42. Hi Julie Anne, yes I was angry at Rachel for recycling one of the myths about rape. But as the blog owner if you want to edit my comment to change the all caps to italics or bold, feel free.

    I know there is a way to use html tags when commenting on most blogs, but I confess I haven’t yet wrapped my head around the method. 😦


  43. I don’t appreciate the use of anger here against another person. Rachel is not our enemy. You and I have knowledge because of what we do that others may not have. A gentle answer would go a lot further in helping someone to understand. Thank you.


  44. I shall remember Fred’s attitude here whenever I see his name. It’s the sort of thing difficult to get out of your mind.

    It’s nothing new for Butler, KAS. He’s had this attitude for years, apparently. Julie Anne could tell you more, and possibly in more detail than either of us could handle.

    As recently as last week, when Jane’s story hit the blogosphere, Butler went so low as to refer to Julie Anne as “bats”, and then to publicly badmouth her daughter Hannah for leaving the faith. Hannah’s not even involved in spreading Jane’s story, so Butler had no reason to drag her into this.

    Fred Butler strikes me as a mean, mean man.

    Liked by 2 people

  45. It’s a sign that he is under a lot of intense pressure to do something. He could repent and come clean and take the consequences, or he could double down in his pride and arrogance and start snarling and biting like a cornered dog.

    The fact that this story is snowballing and gathering support says that it’s striking at the dark heart of the institution. Shining the light where it has never been before.


  46. Thanks for the rebuke, Julie Anne.
    I apologise to Rachel. Rachel, please forgive me. I ought to have phrased what I said to you more gently.
    And please forgive me JA for taking your time up over this.


  47. Serving Kids – I ought not to be, but I am still shocked by the bahaviour of Fred Butler. It’s difficult to take in. The disconnect between his obsession with correct doctrine and lack of empathy with fellow human beings, of which he is not alone in that particular constituency.

    I think this is due, in part – probably large part, to the kind of Calvinism he has imbibed.

    Do you think Fred has designs on the White House for next time round?


  48. KAS, this is no different from the behavior Fred exhibited during my lawsuit. If you do a search on my blog’s search field, I’m sure you find quite a bit of info. If you send me an e-mail, I’ll send you more – a screenshot of the public apology he posted and took down 2 wks later, only to repeat the same thing that he apologized this last week. He’s a case.


  49. Julie Anne – I remember seeing something of your altercation with Fred Butler a while back, and iirc at least you both seemed to keep the discourse civil!

    Thanks for the offer of confirmation on how Fred has behaved, but I think I have seen enough of his behaviour and attitude over the whole ‘Jane’ situation. In other words, I don’t doubt you.

    It seems to me the MacArthur side by their reactions are lending more and more credibility to Jane’s testimony.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Thank you Julie Anne and Kathi for writing a BRILLIANT response to Eric Davis!! Love it!

    Like many of you following this right now, I was horrified by how the other side is brutally attacking Jane. There was a particular comment from Anonymous that caught my attention on the original post Do You See Me? If anyone’s interested, here’s what I posted in response:


  51. Reading the comments on this thread (Do You See Me) has been real eye opening. Since the other side keeps accusing us of lacking discernment—we’re going to respond with biblical discernment right now. This is a point-by-point logical analysis of the comment posted by Anonymous on 9/26/17 at 7:29PM.

    Anonymous wrote: “I am sorry to read the post”

    Our Response: Sorry for whom? Jane? Nope. There’s no compassion or warmth in his words.

    Anonymous: “Biblical call to discernment and not being controlled by my emotions”

    Logical fallacy: Where was the biblical discernment when the wolf came into the church? Where was the discernment when the guy confessed to brutally violating her and the leadership’s response was to put her in potential danger by making her sit next to him for a year?

    Anonymous is saying that the only way to have discernment is by following Anonymous’ orders. Notice how he keeps giving orders to Jane. He’s hinting that disagreeing with him automatically proves you are too emotional. That’s a red herring attack.

    Anonymous: “An anonymous accusation is extremely limited in its ability to really help bring about necessary change….”

    Logical fallacy: Oooooo….the irony! Anonymous is accusing Jane of what he’s actually doing! Why does he refuse to release his own identity while pressuring Jane to come forward? Jane, we are begging you—for your own safety—stay in the shadows right now. No one has the right to take away your privacy.

    Anonymous: “You placed upon yourselves now the burden to bring forth documentation…..otherwise…..you both will run the risk of being guilty of slander.”

    Logical fallacy: Anonymous is the one placing burdens on Jane! He’s making up his own set of rules for her. So how many hoops does Jane have to jump through before he will believe her? Jane already released plenty of evidence. The rest of his comment—Anonymous sounds upset that Jane has a Constitutional Fourth Amendment right to privacy. The decision to release her identity is NOT for Anonymous to make.

    Anonymous: “If the way you have depicted the school and church are correct, such allegations will be dealt with very easily.”

    Logical fallacy: If that’s true—we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now. Anonymous is again blaming Jane for everything. That if she had done everything right, it would have been “dealt with very easily.” Since Anonymous is in denial of how Jane already followed Matthew 18 protocol, let’s review:

    Matthew 18—Stage One: Jane goes to the leadership for help. They fail her.

    Matthew 18—Stage Two: Jane’s father goes to the leadership on her behalf. They fail her again.

    Matthew 18—Stage Three: Jane is telling it to the church. What part of Matthew 18 doesn’t Anonymous understand?

    Anonymous writes: “As….servants of Christ, who is the truth, and vessels….who……want to walk in and speak the truth, we should not be ashamed to stand up for/in the truth and trust in Christ to deal with the consequences….”

    Logical fallacy: Total guilt trip! Now there’s two layers to this:

    #1: Anonymous is ignoring DNA evidence and eyewitness testimony to accuse Jane of lying. Based on what? Campus gossip? Why does it seem that Anonymous is quick to believe rumors and slow to believe first hand knowledge from someone who was actually there?

    #2: Anonymous is also threatening Jane. That if she doesn’t do everything he wants when he wants it—then she is disgracing Christ. The arrogance just drips from Anonymous’ words as he tries to pull every string possible to make Jane feel guilty!

    Anonymous writes: “The only fair, truthful, responsible thing to do now would be to bring forth all the evidence, Jane’s identity, and let it be dealt with appropriately and publicly in both civil and church circles.”

    Logical fallacy: Anonymous is trying to limit Jane’s options. Trying to create a false dilemma for her—when she actually has an unlimited number of options. Again he’s making up his own set of rules while demanding that Jane trust the very people who twice already failed her.

    Why are they so obsessed with releasing Jane’s identity? Do they want to publicly humiliate her? Do they want to put her on trial? It’s not Jane’s fault that someone attacked her. Why do they sound more concerned with exposing Jane’s identity than the perpetrator’s? Because as long as she stays hidden, they have no control over her.

    Anonymous: “This is another voice crying out in the wilderness of survivors of spiritual abuse and neglect, etc. that doesn’t really get anywhere productive, except to feed the already preconceived suspicions of doubters of both sides.”

    Logical fallacy: Now Anonymous is accusing everyone reading this right now! This sounds like the priest and Levite crossing to the other side of the road to avoid the wounded person who desperately needed help. (Luke 10:25-37) Where is the Good Samaritan? Why is Anonymous attacking Christian groups who are actually bringing healing to those who need it most? This is gaslighting where he’s trying to get us to doubt our own discernment by labeling us as unproductive, suspicious doubters! Nope! The truth is that we are followers of Christ applying our Biblical discernment to recognize what’s actually happening!

    Anonymous: “I pray there will be clarity and justice through this process and repentance and healing wherever necessary, for Christ’s sake above all.”

    Logical fallacy: These are empty, hollow words. He’s trying to sound spiritual while still denying that this whole attack was not her fault. Yet ironically, Anonymous is actually confirming Jane’s account by hinting that she needs to repent. Sounds just like when they told her to apologize to the perpetrator! This insanity is unbelievable!

    Throughout this whole comment, Anonymous has tried to blame Jane for everything. Let’s get one thing straight—if Anonymous is feeling the need for repentance—maybe the Holy Spirit is leading him to repent.

    Liked by 2 people

  52. Barbara Roberts I stand corrected. I should have said coercive rather than violent. This would apply to drugging, threats and lies. A friend of mine had a guy trick her into a bigamous wedding though he was still married. She might have refused him sex otherwise!

    Liked by 1 person

  53. Not planning to read Anonymous’s comment, but this is coming from an Evangelicalism where emotions are worthless and cerebrating is holy. I was a victim of this. My family was emotionally abusive, but they saw it, somehow, as necessary preparation for Christian life. I would be ridiculed to tears, and then ridiculed further for showing emotion.

    So, of course this person is going to shove it back on the victim, who is somehow a deficient Christian or even a non-Christian because she wasn’t instantly back into her happy, smiley Christian life once the school decided she got justice. The mere fact that she still is upset or even, perhaps bitter about this fifteen years later is all the proof they need to start discounting anything she says.

    I see this theme that somehow even rape should have no emotional consequences for the victim. It’s some “justice transaction”, and once TMU brokered an apology it was done. I see this over and over again – once the church judges who was right and who was wrong then everyone is expected to act as if it didn’t happen and move on. Great for the abuser, who doesn’t want to be reminded of his sin, horrible for the victim who now is expected to heal in private silence.


  54. A friend of mine had a guy trick her into a bigamous wedding though he was still married.

    That’s Crazy!!! One more thing to watch for I guess. Sheesh.


  55. Most women would have caught on, since you have to fill out forms and do paperwork to apply for a license. My friend only has an IQ of 70 or 80. The guy who pulled the stunt was about average in intelligence. While they were living together the guy twisted her arm so badly she needed a sling and put up pornographic posters all over her apartment. He also picked fights with elderly neighbors.

    R. has a low self image. She could have easily gotten rid of him since the marriage was illegal and her name was on the lease.


  56. Most women would have caught on, since you have to fill out forms and do paperwork to apply for a license.

    I was wondering about that, but I’ve never gone through the licensing process and I don’t know how quickly they check and all. That’s pretty awful.


  57. I found Eric Davis’s post during a Google search. At the time I wondered why he was posting, since had no new information to offer.

    Now it makes more sense. He was defending his wife. That’s great as far as it goes; husbands should protect and defend their wives. But why couldn’t he just say so in the first place? “I’m posting this because I believe Jane’s side of the story was unfair to my wife, Leslie, who counseled her after the rape.” If Eric had a personal stake in the story, beyond merely being a witness, then ethically, should he not have made a disclaimer to that effect?

    Liked by 2 people

  58. Bankababy wrote, “I had a very naive friend say to me as I was going to therapy for sexual abuse : ‘If I was about to get raped I would call out to Jesus and the rapist would jump off and run away.’ It is the epitome of everything Christians don’t understand about rape.”

    I agree, and I’d further point out that Christian naivete extends into every area of life. A dear friend recently admitted that she doesn’t have a smoke detector in her home, but that’s okay because, “The Holy Spirit would wake me up if there was a fire.” There’s such a fine line sometimes between faith and magical thinking.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. I agree with you 100%, Anonymous Grandma. That’s why I thought it was important to allow Jane to share more insight.

    The “counseling” that Jane endured by both Eric, Leslie, and Pastor Rick Holland will be discussed further in another blog post. This is a very important part of Jane’s story and why she spoke out.

    Liked by 1 person

  60. I have heard stories of would be criminals leaving their targets when they cried out to Jesus (think The War Room.) Some women have given birth after fifty. Some men are less than 4 feet tall. Occasionally inoperable cancer has gone into remission. Some folks win $1,000,000 in the lottery.

    Rare exceptions that really happen remain exceptions.

    If the rapist doesn’t leave when you call out to the LORD, that still would make him the villain of the piece.


  61. I’ve been following this story for a while. Leslie was my RD, too. I’m sure I knew Jane but I’m not exactly sure who she is. I am not really surprised by the comments from Leslie. She consistently made me feel less than – like I was the biggest sinner and I felt nothing but judgment from her. I confided in her once and decided I would never again because after hearing what I had to say, she made me feel like the worst sinner. I can only imagine what Jane felt.


  62. Thank you, Ellie, for sharing your personal experience. I’m sorry to hear that you had negative experiences with your RD. Being told that you are the worst sinner is not the best way to counsel by any means.


  63. Hi Julianne,

    I read this article about Eric Davis’s response to Jane. I’m not sure if you saw it but look who comes to his church as a speaker this year for a mens conference. The one and only Rick Holland. Go figure on why he’s speaking out against Jane!!! I’m assuming I have the correct Eric Davis as there can’t be many of them. He pastors a church in Jackson Wyoming.

    Men’s Leadership Conference

    Saturday, September 9th, 2017

    Speaker: Rick Holland. Rick spent 25 years at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California. While at Grace he pastored Crossroads, the college and singles ministry, and served as the Executive Pastor under Dr. John MacArthur.

    Rick is the author of Uneclipsing the Son (Kress Biblical Resources, 2011) and has contributed chapters in other books as well as articles in theological journals. He serves on the faculty of The Expositor’s Seminary where he teaches Homiletics and Expository Preaching. He has earned degrees from the University of Tennessee, Chattanooga (BS), The Master’s Seminary (MDiv), The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (DMin), and Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (PhD candidate).

    Rick has served as Senior Pastor of Mission Road Bible Church since August of 2011. He and his wife, Kim, have three sons: Luke, John, and Mark.

    Dates and Times: September 22nd from 6:30pm-8 pm and September 23rd from 9am-12:30pm

    Location: Teton Valley Bible Church, 265 South 2nd St E, Driggs, ID 83422

    Cost: Free

    Sign up below!


  64. Absolutely Julie Anne….. I can hustle when it comes to research. When the dots start connecting it’s easier to expose these foolish men!!! Jane has my support 100% anything I can do to support her I am here standing with all of you who support her.


  65. Also if anyone wants to join me. I am searching all sermons by men who either are in leadership at GCC, TMS, all pastors who are TMS Graduates and are pastoring their own churches all conferences these men speak at. What I’m looking for! I am starting from the date that Janes post ” Do you See Me” was posted by Marci Prehiem. I want to see what each of these men preached on after the post went viral. Right now as I work and type this little note I am listening to Austin Duncan. I find it interesting the title of his sermon on Sept. 24,2017 ” Faith or Flight” either this is coincidence or intentional if intentional its very in your face and for abuse victims I’m sure you all are aware of ” Fight or Flight” !!!!

    I’m curious to see what these men in their good ole boys club preached on in the aftermath of Janes story being released.


  66. I’m back again and Julianne feel free to delete this if you think it necessary. I found Mr. Butler and Mr. Sakovich in a matter of minutes online. Since they decided to comment in an open twitter forum with their full names and also post information about themselves anyone can find their posts and especially who they support. Just one more reason for them to support TMS regarding Janes Rape and attempt to silence or say she never was abused. So here is what I found on Mr. Butler.


    Main menu

    Skip to primary content






    My name is Fred Butler. I’m a graduate of Arkansas State University and The Master’s Seminary. I currently live in the LA area and work at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur, where I have the honor of coordinating and directing the volunteer ministries. My wife and I have five kids and we are all actively involved at Grace Community Church.

    I began this blog in 2005 to have an outlet for my opinions both theological and secular. I don’t have any particular emphasis with my blog except for promoting a high view of God, the authority of Scripture, and a biblically grounded worldview.

    I have another website called Fred’s Bible Talk where you can listen to some of my devotional teaching I give to my volunteers.

    Please keep in mind that even though I work for Grace to You and attend Grace Church, and I am pretty much in theological agreement with my co-labors, my blog does not necessarily reflect their opinions or convictions. In other words, don’t blame them if you get offended by something you find here. I am the responsible party. I am in no fashion an authoritative representative who speaks for either organization.

    If you must get a hold of me my personal email is fivepointer (@) gmail (dot) com

    I’d love to hear from you, even if you think I am the stupidest, most disgusting person you have ever encountered on the internet. I am pretty good about responding in a timely manner. BTW, please feel free to leave a comment. I merely ask that you refrain from the use of profanity. Honestly, if you can’t articulate your ideas and thought without the use of F-bombs and other sundry foul language, you demonstrate you have a weak, shallow mind.

    In case you are wondering, “hip and thigh” comes from Judges 15:8. It is an expression explaining how Samson, under the power of the Holy Spirit, killed a thousand men with a donkey jawbone. It is one of my favorite KJV expressions (next to “he stinketh, Lord” John 11:39), and it has absolutely nothing to do with joint pain medication.


  67. Absolutely!!!! I spent over a year going over the sermons from our former pastor after my sons abuse occurred. I had to find out what it was that I missed. I’m not easily deceived and I sat in that church for seven years. I didn’t have a clue to what type of man he was. I will say this though you can learn a lot about these men who call themselves pastors who abuse members either spiritually or physically by listening to their sermons with a different set of ears. What I mean is once you realize that you have been abused I would suggest for anyone to go back over your pastor’s sermons and you will recognize the things you missed. You will also be able to undo a lot of the indoctrination you were under. The most important thing as well is you will learn more about that pastor by following where he preaches. I learned more about Pastor Ramey by listening to him preach outside of Texas when he would go speak at other churches especially the “men’s conferences”. When these men speak to other men and teach other men they let their guards down and share details about themselves that they normally wouldn’t with their congregations. It helped me to not just understand the type of man I had been dealing with but I also felt more confident in my decision to break away from that church, the relationships when he had them severed. It gave me peace to know that I am in Christ’s hands and He was so good to show me why we should have never been there. Unfortunately it came with a price my son was harmed and we under went a psychological warfare that many others are going through now. My prayer is others will recognize these men by coming to blogs like yours and listening to others like me who now understand how they operate. The words gossip was used as a weapon against us now we use exposure as a weapon against the enemy. No longer do we stay silent or hide in the dark to be shut away as if it never happened.

    Anyways I listen to these sermons at work rather than music. So I didn’t have time yesterday to give you details on Austin Duncan’s sermon but there were some interesting things in there I will share later on with you. Again him using faith or flight is like an in your face kind of thing to victims of abuse. That’s the way I took it to be.


  68. When these men speak to other men and teach other men they let their guards down and share details about themselves that they normally wouldn’t with their congregations.

    I think this is a very interesting point. I wonder, do they simply feel more comfortable sharing the bad parts of themselves to other men, and if so WHY? Because they let them?

    I will be mulling this over in light of the way many assault and abuse scandals have been playing out. Maybe have men only conferences allows the worst impulses to come out, and finding others who think alike. But why do the good men not stop them? Do they leave, do they stay, do they become corrupted?


  69. Hi Lea,
    This comment :

    ” When these men speak to other men and teach other men they let their guards down and share details about themselves that they normally wouldn’t with their congregations. ”

    I learned this was the case with our former pastor. About six months after my son’s assault he spoke at a conference it was a man camp! Keep in mind I had been listening to sermons that he has done for men only for several months already. During this time I was learning more about him than I ever knew in the seven years I sat under his teaching. So when I stumbled upon the man camp he was a guest speaker at I was stunned with not only the things he revealed about himself but even more stunned regarding the message he choose to give.

    Keep in mind he has used his platform to slander and defame my child’s rape. He has used the pulpit to make serious accusations against a child rape victim in which my child’s perpetrator admitted guilt to. In spite of that to this day the pastor still slanders my child. He has yet to retract the lies he has spread about him and about me. Anyhow I am going to highlight and copy the sermon and you can see for yourselves (hopefully Julieanne doesn’t mind me putting it here) what this man is all about.

    Here is a sermon preached by Mr. Ramey . I believe it is a reflection of Mr. Ramey’s point of view in regards to Child victims of sex abuse and rape vicitms. I caution you that the words of this pastor are offensive but none the less they are his words.

    How Pastor of this church responds to Victims of Abuse! Sermon!!! This was transcribed word for word!!!

    In my first internship under a youth pastor ( my mentor) we had a great relationship I wanted to be just like him, he was like Paul and I was Timothy. He pulled me aside one day at his home and told me that he had contemplated committing suicide. I was stunned and didn’t know how to deal with that! He told me that he got a call from a federal agent. A town that he use to minister in he said he was involved sexually with one of the girls in his youth ministry. She was a minor and he had to go down to testify because he was charged with sexual assault of a minor. So, I stuck with him throughout this process and I stayed faithful and loyal to him. Like I said he was like a spiritual daddy to me.

    I asked him to tell me how did this happen? So it doesn’t happen to me. I couldn’t wrap my mind around that! And he said Ken! You know what? When I got to that church God was blessing it and things were just going great!!! It was growing and kids were coming out of the woodwork’s. I got so busy, I got tired and I stopped having my quiet time. I just stopped spending time in God’s word because I was so busy. I would stay up late and wake up early and then there was this girl. She was 17 and was acting like a 35 year old aggressive , seductive woman who was full on perusing me, is what he said. She was relentless and would not stop. In a moments weakness he said ” I gave in to that temptation”. And again even even when he moved away part of it was covering his family, he wanted to get away from this situation. So he went and took another ministry where I had met up with him in this new town in an attempt to get away from her. She continued to call him and pursue him even while he was away. Anyways she got involved with other men after that as well and ended up at a Christian college. She got herself into counseling and in the counseling session this all came out. She had been involved with a married man. She was a minor da duh duh duh da! This is how the whole thing happened and through the whole process we never sensed that she was at all repentant or broken about any of this, it was almost like she had a bold face ” what did I do wrong”? Like if that guy were back in her life she would still be pursuing him. Ok, and it was like whoa……

    Several years later I had heard that she died in a car accident. She had been driving and exited , she was going back to college. She crashed her car and died. For the first time I thought to myself “I wonder if here was a professing Christian, Right? A professing Christian saying that she loved the Lord and all this stuff, Right? She as living this secret life of sin. I thought the Lord Just sometimes take those kind of people out? Right? I mean so they don’t bring shame and dishonor on the name of Christ. I don’t know that’s a whole other discussion, right? ( Ken Chuckles) to get into. The point is this ” Sin leads to what? Death!!! When sin is accomplished it brings forth death!

    So, after reading this and listening to it was astonishing it became very clear where he stands regarding the abused and it gives insight to the type of man he is. I find it disturbing to say the least that he would tarnish the memory of a young lady who is not even here to defend herself. Why in the world would he choose to diminish her character in any way when she died young? How is this honoring to the Lord? What was the purpose other then defending a man who abused a young girl. I could care less what she did or didn’t do in her life it is clear she was a minor being abused by a grown man who Ramey not only defends but slanders this young girl. What would her parents think? Why? Why after a few months a child is severely abused in his church whom he claimed to care about would he even discuss such a matter with strangers? If this happened years ago what was his purpose? It sure wasn’t necessary. So with this said I learned more about this man in this one sermon than I did during the time I spent communing with this pastor in church! I have listened to about 130 of his sermons transcribed a lot of them already and learned even more. Not just his sermons but those who he is connected to. I don’t know what God is going to do with the knowledge I have gathered yet all I can say is this has been such an eye opening experience. I have also been able to undo a lot of indoctrination and God has made some sense out of nonsense with these controlling manipulative men. I can tell you 100 % pick a pastor who you believe has these characteristics who has already been lime lighted google the conferences and man camps they have spoken at with just men and you will discover so much.


  70. Here is a comment someone made regarding our former pastor! I find his comment interesting and describes this pastor very well over twenty years later.

    “He was a good friend of my roommate while he was taking some seminary courses and employed by the organization. I think he taught for a while in the Bible department and was a youth pastor at GCC. The people he kept company with were very obnoxious. We got along in my early days but I couldn’t stand them toward the end. Your assessment sounds accurate, they were always the “holier than thou” type that would have private studies so they could brag to MacArthur about how much outside study and accountability they had. They are very obsessed with confrontation. “


  71. I forgot to mention Ken worked as MacArthur’s assistant and as a youth pastor for GCC for five years. This would have been during the time Jane was there I believe. He also graduated from TMS. I’m certain he spent almost 8-10 years there. Again this prior statement is indicative of the type of men this seminary spits out and unleashes on the public.


  72. What a load of X@#$! In the book of Genesis a godly man named Joseph was pursued by a bold, aggressive woman. He had no wife to keep him pure (Lots of Protestant preachers bash singles since they think that celibacy is impossible. Makes me wonder if they’re too horny.) Joseph ran away. Men are bigger and more muscular making them pretty hard for a woman to rape.

    I know some of you may get mad because you think that I’m equating child molesting with seduction/adultery. My point is no matter how bold and aggressive that girl was he could have run away and never spent time alone with her afterwards. Keep his wife with him if he was afraid the teen was there. Most girls who act that way have been badly hurt already and don’t need some father figure adding to the trauma.

    Of course he could have been lying. Or assumed too many curves or a large cup size meant she was brazenly asking for it. Creepy perv!


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